“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[catrox14]

5 hours ago, juppschmitz said:

Don't put Dean in the Empty. There's an annoying Cas double there. You don't want that for him.

I think the Empty Keeper just took that form to mess with Cas' head, I think it can look like whatever it chooses.  That said, I think it would be interesting if Dean does end up in the Empty and faces a doppelganger version of himself, a la s3.  That would be kind of fun.

[Res]

14 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think the Empty Keeper just took that form to mess with Cas' head, I think it can look like whatever it chooses.  That said, I think it would be interesting if Dean does end up in the Empty and faces a doppelganger version of himself, a la s3.  That would be kind of fun.

I would definitely watch the hell out of that over anything that Dabb puts out! 

[ILoveReading]

I rewatched God's and Monsters yesterday. 

When Mary tells Jack to stay back he happily agrees and even says "I know I need to improve and that is what I'm going to do."

So once again they threw Dean under the bus when they made him the bad guy.

It's also another reason I can't take Sam seriously as a leader.  They have to make hard decisions sometimes and be the one to take the heat.  That will never happen under Dabb.   Even if it does, he'll get multiple pep talks about how it was the right and necessary decision and everyone will support him.  It won't take four episodes after the fact for it to happen.

Edited November 7, 2018 by ILoveReading

[gonzosgirrl]

On 11/5/2018 at 12:24 PM, Casseiopeia said:

https://youtu.be/PEEEJH5Mg_c

 

Sometimes there is a lot of truth in a throwaway remark. At the very end of this Gold panel, they are talking about 'Dean' always having to eat the gross things, or have the two day fight scenes, etc., and Jared talks about thinking 'long term' at the very beginning of the show and being 'bad' at those things so that they wouldn't give them to Sam. Jensen says, in the words of 'the godfather' of the show, Singer, that [Jensen] is 'a victim of his own talent'. Truer words...

[Lastcall]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Sometimes there is a lot of truth in a throwaway remark. At the very end of this Gold panel, they are talking about 'Dean' always having to eat the gross things, or have the two day fight scenes, etc., and Jared talks about thinking 'long term' at the very beginning of the show and being 'bad' at those things so that they wouldn't give them to Sam. Jensen says, in the words of 'the godfather' of the show, Singer, that [Jensen] is 'a victim of his own talent'. Truer words...

Maybe that’s why Sam got that easy cheesy string of colt kills in season 12 while Dean has earned a reputation as ultimate hunter in internet rankings. Also, stunt staging is one of the few avenues Jensen has to show how cool Dean is since the “writers” don’t control it (unless the do something stupid like..I don’t know...want him to fly on wires). Really makes it hard to sell Sam as the ultimate badass if Jared’s heart isn’t in it and he doesn’t want to put in the work.

Edited November 8, 2018 by Lastcall

[BabySpinach]

3 hours ago, Lastcall said:

Maybe that’s why Sam got that easy cheesy string of colt kills in season 12 while Dean has earned a reputation as ultimate hunter in internet rankings. Also, stunt staging is one of the few avenues Jensen has to show how cool Dean is since the “writers” don’t control it (unless the do something stupid like..I don’t know...want him to fly on wires). Really makes it hard to sell Sam as the ultimate badass if Jared’s heart isn’t in it and he doesn’t want to put in the work.

 

That's a great point. In the end, there's no substitution for authentic effort. They can have Sam or anyone else kill as many powerful bad guys as they want, but what sticks way longer in my mind are Jensen's fight scenes in 14.03, 13.19, 13.17, 13.14, 9.11 etc.

Jensen actually walks the walk, and it greatly pays off in the viewers' perception of his character in the long run. Meanwhile, Sam's "awesome kill/combat moments" usually consist of him pointing and shooting a gun, and they're nowhere near as memorable or badass. When he does engage in fisticuffs, such as in the premiere, it's typically underwhelming. 14.01's fight mostly consisted of him getting choked, with minimal choreography and a luckily easily distracted demon. 

Edited November 8, 2018 by BabySpinach

[ILoveReading]

From @Lastcall is bitter spoilers.  No spoilers

Quote

I will always be team real Bobby just for the fact that he said Dean was his favorite when he was under a truth spell and he was the only one concerned when Dean was acting suicidal and couldn’t bare Dean dying before him in Season 7. Real Bobby earned the right to give Dean tough love speeches. Alt Bobby is just another asshole heaping more crap on Dean.

If that is how Bobby treats Dean if he's his favorite, then I would hate to see how Bobby treated Dean if he wasn't.  Real Bobbyfor me he was an asshole heaping more crap on Dean.

He was a hypocrite.  He told Dean to stop being a whiny brat and a princess when Dean was angry and upset over Sam strangling him, but he spent a lot of season five whining about being in a wheelchair.  When Dean gave him a pep talk, Dean didn't tell him to suck it up or call him names.  He said, "you don't stop being a solider because your wounded in battle."  Or when Dean was leery of Sam he told Dean to suck it up and get in the car.  But when Souless Sam came after him, he decided it was okay to be weary and stay away.

The more they turned Bobby into a father figure, the more he turned him into John, who saw Dean's value about what he could or couldn't do for Sam.   When Sam was out of the picture Bobby let Dean grief horribly for Sam.  He didn't care that he hurt Dean.   If Dean snapped and poked at the cage, would Bobby have taken any responsibility for that?*   The minute it because obvious that something was up with Sam, Bobby basically told Dean he couldn't have it all and should give up Lisa and Ben.  So which is it?  He also told Dean he wasn't a person, and basically told Sam to stop worrying about Dean and worry about himself. 

He mocked, belittled, and ignored Dean's traumas.  He was little more than a writer mouth piece by the end of it.

Im tried of Dean's being called names or mocked and it being labeled as "tough love."   Imagine the outrage if Bobby said something like that to Sam.  I remember how much Dean got raked over the coals for what he said to Sam in The Mentalists. 

Dean didn't deserve what Bobby said to him.  That wasn't "tough love."  it was simply being an asshole.

If that is how Bobby, new or old treats his "favorite" Sam is welcome to have him.

*Yes, if Dean opened the cage to try and rescuse Sam that would be his choice but he wouldn't make the choice if he knew Sam wasn't in there, so IMO, Bobby would bare some responsibility.

Edited November 8, 2018 by ILoveReading

[Lastcall]

7 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

From @Lastcall is bitter spoilers.  No spoilers

If that is how Bobby treats Dean if he's his favorite, then I would hate to see how Bobby treated Dean if he wasn't.  Real Bobbyfor me he was an asshole heaping more crap on Dean.

He was a hypocrite.  He told Dean to stop being a whiny brat and a princess when Dean was angry and upset over Sam strangling him, but he spent a lot of season five whining about being in a wheelchair.  When Dean gave him a pep talk, Dean didn't tell him to suck it up or call him names.  He said, "you don't stop being a solider because your wounded in battle."  Or when Dean was leery of Sam he told Dean to suck it up and get in the car.  But when Souless Sam came after him, he decided it was okay to be weary and stay away.

The more they turned Bobby into a father figure, the more he turned him into John, who saw Dean's value about what he could or couldn't do for Sam.   When Sam was out of the picture Bobby let Dean grief horribly for Sam.  He didn't care that he hurt Dean.   If Dean snapped and poked at the cage, would Bobby have taken any responsibility for that?*   The minute it because obvious that something was up with Sam, Bobby basically told Dean he couldn't have it all and should give up Lisa and Ben.  So which is it?  He also told Dean he wasn't a person, and basically told Sam to stop worrying about Dean and worry about himself. 

He mocked, belittled, and ignored Dean's traumas.  He was little more than a writer mouth piece by the end of it.

Im tried of Dean's being called names or mocked and it being labeled as "tough love." 

Dean didn't deserve what Bobby said to him.  That wasn't "tough love."  it was simply being an asshole.

If that is how Bobby, new or old treats his "favorite" Sam is welcome to have him.

*Yes, if Dean opened the cage to try and rescuse Sam that would be his choice but he wouldn't make the choice if he knew Sam wasn't in there, so IMO, Bobby would bare some responsibility.

Real Bobby absolutely has his faults but he was pretty much gruff with everyone not just Dean. I never really saw him play favorites though I know some do. He genuinely cared when Dean came back from the dead. He really wanted Dean to have a happily ever after with Lisa and Ben. He told Dean he was better than John. All I want now on the show is a little (hell any) balance. Real Bobby at least mixed some good in with the bad. 

[Myrelle]

6 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

From @Lastcall is bitter spoilers.  No spoilers

If that is how Bobby treats Dean if he's his favorite, then I would hate to see how Bobby treated Dean if he wasn't.  Real Bobbyfor me he was an asshole heaping more crap on Dean.

He was a hypocrite.  He told Dean to stop being a whiny brat and a princess when Dean was angry and upset over Sam strangling him, but he spent a lot of season five whining about being in a wheelchair.  When Dean gave him a pep talk, Dean didn't tell him to suck it up or call him names.  He said, "you don't stop being a solider because your wounded in battle."  Or when Dean was leery of Sam he told Dean to suck it up and get in the car.  But when Souless Sam came after him, he decided it was okay to be weary and stay away.

The more they turned Bobby into a father figure, the more he turned him into John, who saw Dean's value about what he could or couldn't do for Sam.   When Sam was out of the picture Bobby let Dean grief horribly for Sam.  He didn't care that he hurt Dean.   If Dean snapped and poked at the cage, would Bobby have taken any responsibility for that?*   The minute it because obvious that something was up with Sam, Bobby basically told Dean he couldn't have it all and should give up Lisa and Ben.  So which is it?  He also told Dean he wasn't a person, and basically told Sam to stop worrying about Dean and worry about himself. 

He mocked, belittled, and ignored Dean's traumas.  He was little more than a writer mouth piece by the end of it.

Im tried of Dean's being called names or mocked and it being labeled as "tough love." 

Dean didn't deserve what Bobby said to him.  That wasn't "tough love."  it was simply being an asshole.

If that is how Bobby, new or old treats his "favorite" Sam is welcome to have him.

*Yes, if Dean opened the cage to try and rescuse Sam that would be his choice but he wouldn't make the choice if he knew Sam wasn't in there, so IMO, Bobby would bare some responsibility.

They destroyed Bobby for me after Dream a Little Dream-and every bit as much as Dabb and co have now destroyed Mary for me, only over a longer period of time.

Mary and Bobby are now a great match in that way for me, but I really think that part of Bobby's character assassination and deconstruction and destruction came about via the writer's once again down-playing something Dean had, and lessening something about Dean-that being his bond with Bobby as being a more loving and caring of and for Dean father-figure than John ever was-all to include Sam in that relationship(and yes, if this is how Bobby treats his "favorite", I'd rather he be the less favored like Sam).

They ruined Bobby for me in Yellow Fever and they the put the nails in his coffin in the S4 finale.

I wish that any version of Bobby was off my screen for good, at this point.

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, Lastcall said:

Real Bobby absolutely has his faults but he was pretty much gruff with everyone not just Dean. I never really saw him play favorites though I know some do. He genuinely cared when Dean came back from the dead. He really wanted Dean to have a happily ever after with Lisa and Ben. He told Dean he was better than John. All I want now on the show is a little (hell any) balance. Real Bobby at least mixed some good in with the bad. 

I look at Bobby as pre boo hoo princess speech and after.  Before I would agree with you, after, Bobby came across as another person who heaped more responsibilities onto Dean the exact same way Sam did. 

I don't recall Bobby being gruff with Sam.  Other than when he was possessed.   He didn't treat Sam like he treated Dean.  He treated Sam with kid gloves. 

Shouldn't Bobby care about what made Dean happy?   Bobby cared about Bobby's idea of happiness for Dean.   If Bobby cares about Dean as much as he says he does, than he should have known that Dean was just going through motions with Lisa and Ben.  he wasn't truly happy.  how can he be knowing Sam was burning in hell?  Bobby was cruel no matter what way you (general you) look at it.  Another reason bobby was such a hypocrite.  He lectures Dean about how they have to support Sam's choices but had no problem making one for Dean. 

The last good scene, for me was when Jo and Ellen died and Bobby was trying to get Dean to focus.  He didnt' resort to lectures or yelling or mocking. 

Bobby might have said Dean was better than John, but he didn't treat him any better than John did.  Dean was expected to behave according to how Bobby thought he should.   As Bobby said, Dean's no a person.  Bobby was just another person who treated him as an object.

7 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

They ruined Bobby for me in Yellow Fever and they the put the nails in his coffin in the S4 finale.

I forgot what an jerk he was to Dean in this ep

[Myrelle]

14 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Bobby might have said Dean was better than John, but he didn't treat him any better than John did.  Dean was expected to behave according to how Bobby thought he should.   As Bobby said, Dean's no a person.  Bobby was just another person who treated him as an object.

I will never, ever forgive the character or the writers for that boo hoo princess speech. That was it for me and the fact that it spawned so many more afterwards still fills me with so much anger.

I have no idea why Kripke chose to turn Bobby into basically just another version of John, but that's what he did with the character to me in that episode.

And again, it makes me so angry because before that one, I loved Bobby, and mostly for all the ways that I thought he was different from John where it concerned Dean.

Same as with Mary before Dabb and co. got their hooks into her.

[tessathereaper]

47 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

Real Bobby absolutely has his faults but he was pretty much gruff with everyone not just Dean. I never really saw him play favorites though I know some do. He genuinely cared when Dean came back from the dead. He really wanted Dean to have a happily ever after with Lisa and Ben. He told Dean he was better than John. All I want now on the show is a little (hell any) balance. Real Bobby at least mixed some good in with the bad. 

He told Dean he was better than John in the context of telling him how wrong he was for how he was supposedly treating Sam.  That's not a "good thing" that's basically trying to shame him for something he didn't deserve to be shamed for.

[Myrelle]

14 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

He told Dean he was better than John in the context of telling him how wrong he was for how he was supposedly treating Sam.  That's not a "good thing" that's basically trying to shame him for something he didn't deserve to be shamed for.

But Dean was doing feelings "wrong" again and he needed the "tough love" to shake him out of it.

Gods, everything I hate about how these writers have always seen Dean is in that scene. 

And they have never given us an episode that implicitly states that it's never really worked excepting in that it makes Dean feel like shit for not being the person that whoever is practicing it at the moment wants or needs him to be, at that moment.

And it's so fucked up to me that they have people who supposedly love him so much continue to do this to him while remaining completely oblivious to the fact that they ARE doing that to him.

Edited November 8, 2018 by Myrelle

[Lastcall]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I look at Bobby as pre boo hoo princess speech and after.  Before I would agree with you, after, Bobby came across as another person who heaped more responsibilities onto Dean the exact same way Sam did. 

I don't recall Bobby being gruff with Sam.  Other than when he was possessed.   He didn't treat Sam like he treated Dean.  He treated Sam with kid gloves. 

Shouldn't Bobby care about what made Dean happy?   Bobby cared about Bobby's idea of happiness for Dean.   If Bobby cares about Dean as much as he says he does, than he should have known that Dean was just going through motions with Lisa and Ben.  he wasn't truly happy.  how can he be knowing Sam was burning in hell?  Bobby was cruel no matter what way you (general you) look at it.  Another reason bobby was such a hypocrite.  He lectures Dean about how they have to support Sam's choices but had no problem making one for Dean. 

The last good scene, for me was when Jo and Ellen died and Bobby was trying to get Dean to focus.  He didnt' resort to lectures or yelling or mocking. 

Bobby might have said Dean was better than John, but he didn't treat him any better than John did.  Dean was expected to behave according to how Bobby thought he should.   As Bobby said, Dean's no a person.  Bobby was just another person who treated him as an object.

I forgot what an jerk he was to Dean in this ep

I admit I might be seeing the old show through rose colored glasses. I switched from TeamFreeWill to Team Dean after The Raid when I realized the show runners were playing favorites and Dean was being sent to the cornfield with Crowley. Before that, I felt like Bobby, Sam, Cas and even Crowley cared about Dean or at least the acting came across. Now Dean is surrounded characters that at best tolerate him and at worse are calling for his death. I would take the old characters over the Ice Queen, Jack, he’s not Lucifer but everyone knows he really is, Kaia and all the not’s any day. 

[ILoveReading]

28 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

Now Dean is surrounded characters that at best tolerate him

I've felt this way since Dean got back in s4, starting with Sam.  Sam ditched him for Ruby his first night back and even told Dean he perferred to be with Ruby because Ruby pulled his strings but let Sam believe he was in control, whereas Dean let him make his own decisions.  Sam didn't like that, so he had to go to Ruby to get away from Dean.

Then there was Purgatory and he acted irritated and annoyed that Dean dare come back, and in s9 he decided to die.  The fact that he'd be leaving Dean never came.  Sam was too busy patting himself on the back. 

So I still stand by my opinion that Sam doesn't like Dean very much.

Edited November 8, 2018 by ILoveReading

[Lastcall]

4 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I've felt this way since Dean got back in s4, starting with Sam.  Sam ditched him for Ruby his first night back and even told Dean he perferred to be with Ruby because Ruby pulled his strings but let Sam believe he was in control, whereas Dean let him make his own decisions.  Sam didn't like that, so he had to go to Ruby to get away from Dean.

Then there was Purgatory and he acted irritated and annoyed that Dean dare come back, and in s9 he decided to die.  The fact that he'd be leaving Dean never came.  Sam was too busy patting himself on the back. 

So I still stand by my opinion that Sam doesn't like Dean very much.

I agree that season 8 wrecked Sam’s character and they haven’t done anything in the 6 seasons after that to repair the damage or make it up to Dean. I still got enough from the actors and storylines to believe they cared about Dean. They have all said hurtful things to each other in the early years but that was kind of the point. They hurt each other but care more even if they went about it in the wrong way. I bought that Bobby, Cas, John and even characters like Ellen loved him even when they yelled at him. These days the only character I feel remotely cares about Dean is Jody. Currently, my only wish is Dean goes to the bunker, fills up Baby’s trunk with weapons, tells everyone to go screw themselves and drives into the sunset.

[devlin]

35 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

I agree that season 8 wrecked Sam’s character and they haven’t done anything in the 6 seasons after that to repair the damage or make it up to Dean. I still got enough from the actors and storylines to believe they cared about Dean. They have all said hurtful things to each other in the early years but that was kind of the point. They hurt each other but care more even if they went about it in the wrong way. I bought that Bobby, Cas, John and even characters like Ellen loved him even when they yelled at him. These days the only character I feel remotely cares about Dean is Jody. Currently, my only wish is Dean goes to the bunker, fills up Baby’s trunk with weapons, tells everyone to go screw themselves and drives into the sunset.

Agree 1000%. And I would actually like it if he teamed up with ketch to hunt with

[devlin]

Yay, so we get supportive dean on sam’s behalf. I just wonder when we are going to get supportive sam on dean’s behalf. I figure 14 seasons in, it might happen?

[Aeryn13]

The pimping was out of this world. I mean "natural born leader"? And could Mary care any less about Dean? Of course noone even acknowledges Dean anymore but apparently a MOTW ocassionally. 

[Myrelle]

18 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

The pimping was out of this world. I mean "natural born leader"? And could Mary care any less about Dean? Of course noone even acknowledges Dean anymore but apparently a MOTW ocassionally. 

So predictable at this point.

JP should be embarrassed by the level of it, after tonight's epsiode, IMO.

Edited November 9, 2018 by Myrelle

[devlin]

24 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

So predictable at this point.

JP should be embarrassed by the level of it, after tonight's epsiode, IMO.

IMHO he  would be loving it!

[Myrelle]

12 minutes ago, devlin said:

IMHO he  would be loving it!

I'm sure he is, but he should be embarrassed by how blatantly they're taking from JA/Dean to give to him and his character-including the shortening and the again blatant disinterest of the writers in the Michae!Dean stuff.

But that's been JP since S5, IMO.

BFF with his co-star only to a point.

[BlueSapphire]

31 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I'm sure he is, but he should be embarrassed by how blatantly they're taking from JA/Dean to give to him and his character-including the shortening and the again blatant disinterest of the writers in the Michae!Dean stuff.

But that's been JP since S5, IMO.

BFF with his co-star only to a point.

So both Jensen and Jared are lying about how close their friendship is? Talk about stooping pretty low to prove a point.

[Myrelle]

18 minutes ago, BlueSapphire said:

So both Jensen and Jared are lying about how close their friendship is? Talk about stooping pretty low to prove a point.

Friendships come in many different flavors and the give and take is not always equal even within the best of friendships and since S5 when JP crowed about becoming the "new Dean" in S6, I've felt that their real life friendship has become uncomfortably too much like the one that their fictional characters have shared. 

That's just how it seems to me and often times this is how it is in real life with some friends, in my experience-one is more of the giver and one is more of the taker and sometimes the participants  themselves aren't even aware of it; or if they(or one) is, it doesn't register as anything of much importance because they still like each other and care about each other and enjoy each other's company.

And some people are more ambitious than others, too.

Edited November 9, 2018 by Myrelle

[devlin]

43 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Friendships come in many different flavors and the give and take is not always equal even within the best of friendships and since S5 when JP crowed about becoming the "new Dean" in S6, I've felt that their real life friendship has become uncomfortably too much like the one that their fictional characters have shared. 

That's just how it seems to me and often times this is how it is in real life with some friends, in my experience-one is more of the giver and one is more of the taker and sometimes the participants  themselves aren't even aware of it; or if they(or one) is, it doesn't register as anything of much importance because they still like each other and care about each other and enjoy each other's company.

And some people are more ambitious than others, too.

Exactly! Some people are just natural givers while some are natural takers. Nothing against either one and it doesn’t mean they are not close 

[devlin]

These writers clearly don’t understand the concept of show don’t tell. Have we ever actually seen sam being this uber leader or are we just being told over and over again. 

[AwesomO4000]

17 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Friendships come in many different flavors and the give and take is not always equal even within the best of friendships and since S5 when JP crowed about becoming the "new Dean" in S6, , I've felt that their real life friendship has become uncomfortably too much like the one that their fictional characters have shared. 

This doesn't even make sense to me, because Soulless Sam wasn't like Dean, so either the showrunners sold Jared a bill of goods, or he wasn't really meaning it like it sounded. And of course, as soon as Sam got his soul back, everything went back to being the way it was, so again, none of that makes sense to me.

I've also seen it said before that Jared is more interested in only his own storylines and doesn't care so much about Jensen's, but Jensen is more concerned for what happens with Sam... I don't believe that either, since as far as I've seen Jensen talks about how purgatory was one of his favorite arcs even though that arc completely threw Sam under the bus, so claims that Jensen would never let Sam's character be trashed - as I've seen - went out the window for me with those comments, because Jensen didn't seem to care what the purgatory / Benny arc meant for Sam's character. So other than the fact that I think both of them have a healthy concern for their own place in the show, I wouldn't presume to know the dynamics of their personal relationship or friendship with each other, since I am not privy to any of that.

13 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I remember how much Dean got raked over the coals for what he said to Sam in The Mentalists. 

My issue with what Dean said to Sam in "The Mentalists" had less to do with the words than the situation. Dean pretty much talked Sam into working the case with him by saying that they could just work the case... then when Sam agreed and did that - and in my opinion Sam was being pretty reasonable and personable - Dean complained that Sam wouldn't give him more, was annoyed that Sam had the nerve to be angry about being lied to, and told Sam he was acting like a bitch. "You can be pissed all you want, but quit being a bitch," is, in my opinion, a bit contradictory. And is also an example for me of Dean telling Sam that he does feelings wrong also... And the writers seemed to agree since they had Sam capitulate and agree with Dean.

10 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Sam ditched him for Ruby his first night back and even told Dean he perferred to be with Ruby because Ruby pulled his strings but let Sam believe he was in control, whereas Dean let him make his own decisions.  Sam didn't like that, so he had to go to Ruby to get away from Dean.

In my opinion, the Ruby / Sam / Dean thing was more complicated than that. In my opinion, Sam going with Ruby so he didn't have to feel like "the little brother" was partially due to Sam's guilt. Whenever he was with Dean he was reminded of what Dean had sacrificed to save him by doing that big brother thing. When he was with Ruby, Sam didn't have to be directly reminded of that, and he had some control in that he could actually do something to decide his own fate. He didn't feel like the "little brother" by being reminded of how much Dean had sacrificed for him, and that he [Sam] had had absolutely no say at all in Dean's decision. I think there was likely also some resentment - whether conscious or not - for Dean having been partially the cause of Sam's guilt in the first place, too, and the fact that Dean left him (Sam) all alone to deal with everything... and that it was a conscious choice on Dean's part to leave Sam that way.*** Sam dying and leaving Dean alone was not his choice, but Dean chose to die and leave Sam alone.***

*** In Sam's mind, because even though we were privy to Dean's reasoning (or lack thereof, considering his state of mind) and why he made the deal, Sam was not, since he was dead at the time.

That's just my reading on that. I understand if others don't agree.

3 hours ago, devlin said:

Yay, so we get supportive dean on sam’s behalf. I just wonder when we are going to get supportive sam on dean’s behalf. I figure 14 seasons in, it might happen?

We've gotten supportive Sam on Dean's behalf lots of times throughout the series. It wasn't maybe explicitly related to Dean's leadership skills - well not to Dean himself, although Sam was supportive of Dean's leadership skills to Jake in "All Hell... Pt1" - but support for what Dean does for him (Sam), others, and the world in general, I could name probably at least half a dozen times off the top of my head, and there are probably many more than that. And in my opinion, I'm sorry, but "Sam didn't mean it anyway" or "Sam wasn't being sincere" doesn't work or even make sense for the majority of the examples I'm thinking of.

If the above is just hyperbole, then nevermind...

But it gets old sometimes seeing this claim over and over again when it's just not true, and there's plenty of evidence within the show to show that it isn't true.

[Aeryn13]

Dean has never been acknowledged for having leadership skills. Not by anyone in the show ever.

Contrast that with the Super-Leader-Sam arc right now where Dean, Mary and AU!Bobby had ample dialogue for it. Bobby was made to eat crow for not kissing Sam's feet. And there are numerous "Sam commands bis adoring flunkies" scene. 

Meanwhile Dean could be swallowed by a hole in the ground and especially Mary wouldn't give a crap. 

When was the last time under Dabb that Dean received such epic pimping and verbal ass-kissing? Trick question of course, it never happened in the show. 

Edited November 9, 2018 by Aeryn13

[AwesomO4000]

13 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

He told Dean he was better than John in the context of telling him how wrong he was for how he was supposedly treating Sam.  That's not a "good thing" that's basically trying to shame him for something he didn't deserve to be shamed for.

In my opinion, it depends on the way you look at it. Dean might be Bobby's favorite, but does that mean he's supposed to just write Sam off, because Dean says so? What was Bobby supposed to say - "yup you're right, Dean. Sam treated you badly, so by all means disown him and let him destroy himself. I'll just sit here and support that." I'm pretty sure that when Dean decided he was less angry, he probably wouldn't have appreciated that attitude from Bobby. He likely would've said "why didn't you talk me out of it, Bobby?"

14 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Imagine the outrage if Bobby said something like that to Sam.

Dean didn't deserve what Bobby said to him.  That wasn't "tough love."  it was simply being an asshole.

My own opinion coming up here: I know I'm going to get blasted for this, but if Sam had said that Dean wasn't really his brother and that he probably never was and never really cared about their family anyway, then yeah, in my opinion, Sam would've deserved some of Bobby's "tough love".

Did Bobby even know the extent of Sam and Dean's physical fight? Because if he didn't, then in my opinion, he did have some reason to think that Dean was maybe just acting like a brat by saying that Sam wasn't his brother anymore, likely never was anyway, and whining - yet again - about Sam leaving for college. Dean saying Sam never wanted to be part of their family was pretty harsh considering all the crap Sam went through trying to save Dean from the deal in the first place. Sure Sam was acting like a jerk right then, but Sam had very much wanted to save Dean, and it devastated Sam that Dean died... and being that Bobby was actually witness to that, he would know.

Bobby thought that Sam was in imminent danger. The "tough love" wasn't on Dean's behalf, but to try to get Dean to save Sam... and if it meant hurting Dean's feelings momentarily to save Sam, then that was a strategy Bobby was willing to take, and it's not one that I can really blame him all that much for. Bobby could have time to smooth things over and make it up to Dean after Sam was saved, but if letting Dean just sit and brood meant that Sam might go off the deep end while that was happening, Bobby wasn't willing to take that chance. He thought getting Dean to "suck it up" and go after Sam was the best way to try to save Sam - and if the angels hadn't interfered, Bobby would have been correct - and he was frustrated that Dean couldn't see that... And yup, Bobby lost his temper, and yelled, and was harsh about it, but he's a man... and men do that sometimes when they are worried and frustrated. People are human, and don't always choose the best way to do things. And men don't always take the time to calm down and reason out their feelings in charged situations... they just don't. I'm not going to forever ding Bobby for not growing lady parts (TM Bobby) during that scene.

14 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I don't recall Bobby being gruff with Sam.  Other than when he was possessed.   He didn't treat Sam like he treated Dean.  He treated Sam with kid gloves. 

While not being rough to Sam's face, Bobby was shown to have been very much open to the idea of sacrificing Sam to stop the apocalypse by using him as a bomb. Just because someone isn't rough to someone's face, that doesn't reflect how they really feel about them necessarily. And yes, he later wanted to save Sam as I said above, but I don't know if I could see Bobby suggesting to use Dean as a bomb.

Bobby also doesn't seem to know Sam really all that much. I think Bobby is lucky Sam really loves him, because if I were Sam, and Bobby had thought a sociopath version of me was actually me for over a year, I would've been a bit hurt and ticked off, myself.

[ILoveReading]

It's season 4 all over again. 

Dean goes through a major trauma and somehow Sam ends up the victim. 

3 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

? What was Bobby supposed to say

How about, "Look Dean, I get it.  You're mad, and you have every right to be.  You can kick Sam's ass later, I'll even help, but I know you son and I know that if there was a chance to save Sam, no matter how small and you didn't take it you wouldn't be able to live with yourself.

There are so many different ways they could have handled that without writing Sam off, or mocking or belittling Dean.  The writers had a message to sedn

3 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

if Sam had said that Dean wasn't really his brother and that he probably never was and never really cared about their family anyway, then yeah, in my opinion, Sam would've deserved some of Bobby's "tough love".

Sam did say this.  He disowned Dean and the writers label it a hard truth.  I remember everyone prasing Sam for standing up for himself

 

3 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

obby was shown to have been very much open to the idea of sacrificing Sam to stop the apocalypse by using him as a bomb. J

Not sure how this is Bobby being rough of Sam when Sam himself had the same idea.  Plus, Sam was plenty okay with using Dean for a bomb during the MoC arc and with Amara.  Nobody on screen labeled Sam as being rough.  So think think Bobby would have been okay.

I stand by my point, Bobby was never rough or hard on Sam.  I can't think of a single example he didn't treat Sam with kid gloves. 

NuBobby, old Bobby doesn't matter. He spoke the truth here but he was made to take it back.

Even since fallen Idols its like the writers are allergic to actually having a character criticize Sam without taking it back.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

Sam did say this.  He disowned Dean and the writers label it a hard truth.  I remember everyone prasing Sam for standing up for himself

 

This and more. In DSOTM Sam straight up said family didn't mean the same thing to him as it did to Dean. And infamously in S9, that being family was the root of all their problems. Dean was selfish and only willing to sacrifice if he wasn't the one being hurt. None of that was EVER taken back. He 'lied' about not being willing to save Dean, but everything else was left to stand to this day.

[AwesomO4000]

6 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

How about, "Look Dean, I get it.  You're mad, and you have every right to be.  You can kick Sam's ass later, I'll even help, but I know you son and I know that if there was a chance to save Sam, no matter how small and you didn't take it you wouldn't be able to live with yourself.

I thought that Bobby's "I know you're pissed. And I'm not making apologies for what he's done, but he's your--" was pretty close to the bolded part... But Bobby didn't get to finish, because Dean cut him off and launched into his "Sam's not my brother" argument. We also don't know what it was that Bobby said before we faded into the scene either.

It very well could be that the writers had an agenda here. I don't know. All I'm saying is from what I saw of the argument and the fact that Bobby wanted to save Sam and was frustrated with Dean could have - in my opinion - reasonably lead to the poor choice of words on Bobby's part. As I said, people are human, and men don't always do the touchy-feely, hold your hand and provide the perfect thing to say response when they're worried and frustrated. So I didn't take any of it as a sign that Bobby doesn't like Dean or doesn't care about Dean. I took it as "oh, two men are arguing and saying stuff they likely shouldn't, because "issues" and men-reasons... yeah pretty much typical."

And I'm not saying women don't do similar things, because boy, do they sometimes... It's just typically different and about different things and is often more passive-aggressive than in-your-face like this was. When it comes down to it, I weirdly seem to understand the guy stuff - like that Bobby / Dean exchange - almost more myself. I could see here they were both coming from there.

7 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Sam did say this.  He disowned Dean and the writers label it a hard truth.  I remember everyone prasing Sam for standing up for himself

I'm not sure which thing you are referring to here as I can honestly say that I don't remember it, so I can't agree or disagree.

5 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

This and more. In DSOTM Sam straight up said family didn't mean the same thing to him as it did to Dean. And infamously in S9, that being family was the root of all their problems. Dean was selfish and only willing to sacrifice if he wasn't the one being hurt. None of that was EVER taken back. He 'lied' about not being willing to save Dean, but everything else was left to stand to this day.

Okay, wait. Are you saying that just because Sam has a different opinion of how he sees family than Dean does, this makes him wrong and means that he doesn't see Dean as family? Or that because at a time when he was angry, and he wasn't seeing how family ties was a good thing at that moment in his life, that he was saying Dean wasn't his family. I actually think that that says that he was acknowledging that Dean was his family and that that was part of the problem. And the "The Purge" speech, as awful as it was (and in my opinion, considering that it was a Carver era episode, was setting Sam up to be the "bad brother" again as carver was want to do for angst purposes) had nothing to do with family, in my opinion.

Dean literally said that he wasn't sure that Sam was his brother anymore... if he ever was his brother to begin with. That's not saying I see family differently. That's saying I'm not sure he's my family at all and maybe he never was. For me that's an entirely different thing.

And that's not even getting into how Dean so easily said "Bye Sam, see you never," in "The End," because at least that was acknowledging that there had been a connection there, but that Dean was now breaking it. Dean's rant in "Lucifer Rising" was trying to question their entire history, and denouncing everything Sam tried to do and all Sam went through trying to save Dean.

Basically, in my opinion, it was on the level of the "The Purge" speech but in reference to family with an added element of disowning Sam, because just like Sam was questioning Dean's raison d'etre in "The Purge" speech, here Dean was questioning Sam's entire family loyalty. Different subjects, but same condemnation, in my opinion.

[tessathereaper]

but if letting Dean just sit and brood meant that Sam might go off the deep end while that was happening, Bobby wasn't willing to take that chance. He thought getting Dean to "suck it up" and go after Sam was the best way to try to save Sam - and if the angels hadn't interfered, Bobby would have been correct - and he was frustrated that Dean couldn't see that..

I'm sorry let Dean sit and brood?  What sit and brood?  Dean had obviously just arrived at Bobby's and they were talking about what happened.  Bobby didn't try to understand Dean's feelings at all.  There is zero excuse for what Bobby said and how he said it.  All that "boo hoo poor wittle wamb Sam is "drowning""  No Sam wasn't drowning.  Sam was an idiot who made his own choices of his own free will and now had chosen a demon over his brother, as he had ALL season long.  And he'd choked Dean nearly to death to boot.

But yes Dean should not question anything at all and should still blindly continue on the path of "do anything to save Sammy".  Bobby called Dean a princess, he said "boo hoo" to him, he called him a whiny brat.  He mocked him by acting like Dean somehow didn't know family was supposed to make you miserable - when if anything in that family had lived that, it was Dean, he gave up everything for his family. 

After everything Dean had been through, which frankly was far worse than anything Sam had been at that point in time, after what he'd been dealing with Sam all season long, and what he'd just had done to him - THAT was Bobby's answer?  That's not tough love, that's just selfish cruelty.

[devlin]

It all comes down to sam. Sam strangles dean but dean isn’t allowed to process the fact that the baby brother he had raised and sacrificed everything for had just stared him in the eye, wrapped his hands around his throat and tried to choke the life out of him. No? Of course he has to bury his own trauma and put sam first.  Dean returns from being possessed by Michael but once again has to bury his own trauma and reassure and prop sam up again

[ILoveReading]

16 minutes ago, devlin said:

It all comes down to sam. Sam strangles dean but dean isn’t allowed to process the fact that the baby brother he had raised and sacrificed everything for had just stared him in the eye, wrapped his hands around his throat and tried to choke the life out of him. No? Of course he has to bury his own trauma and put sam first.  Dean returns from being possessed by Michael but once again has to bury his own trauma and reassure and prop sam up again

When its about Sam its about Sam.  When its about Dean its still about Sam.

God forbid Dean get actual on screen acknowledgement of his traumas and accomplishments without the show feeling the need to shove the constant "But Sam had it worse"

I don't care about poor poor pitiful Sammeh isn't sleeping or eating. 

Spoiler

I really hope this isn't the thing that will take a "bigger toll" on Dean because boring.

its his own damn fault for actually not actually working with his people.  He's not leading he just put himself in charge.  If "Chief" is so great and such a good teacher why is it at least two months, ( the three weeks Dean was missing, plus five weeks), they havent' learned a damn thing that they cant' help "chief."  Either Sam can't give up control, isn't the great and powerful teacher the show keeps trying to shove down our throats or he doesnt' trust the people under his "command"  None of that makes Sam leader.  To me he's still more of a follower. 

Dean spent this episode cleaning up after the great and powerful all supreme leader of the universe. It was Dean who made sure people were okay.  Dean who was able to use his brains to come up with a plan on the fly, Dean who took care of things.  Yet Sam gets all the credit. 

I've even seen people say that its was great that Dean got character growth because he didn't get upset at Sam for the Maggie thing.  Dean should have gotten upset.  Maggie would be dead if it wasn't for Dean.   Sam screwed up.  He deseved to hear he screwed up.  Instead everyone continues to tell him to prop him and boost his ego. 

I also noticed how responding and defending Sam isn't "confirming what was said" or "unecessary" or any other of the 100 excuses why Dean should never get the same treatment.

[FlickChick]

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

When its about Sam its about Sam.  When its about Dean its still about Sam.

God forbid Dean get actual on screen acknowledgement of his traumas and accomplishments without the show feeling the need to shove the constant "But Sam had it worse"

I don't care about poor poor pitiful Sammeh isn't sleeping or eating. 

  Reveal hidden contents

I really hope this isn't the thing that will take a "bigger toll" on Dean because boring.

its his own damn fault for actually not actually working with his people.  He's not leading he just put himself in charge.  If "Chief" is so great and such a good teacher why is it at least two months, ( the three weeks Dean was missing, plus five weeks), they havent' learned a damn thing that they cant' help "chief."  Either Sam can't give up control, isn't the great and powerful teacher the show keeps trying to shove down our throats or he doesnt' trust the people under his "command"  None of that makes Sam leader.  To me he's still more of a follower. 

Dean spent this episode cleaning up after the great and powerful all supreme leader of the universe. It was Dean who made sure people were okay.  Dean who was able to use his brains to come up with a plan on the fly, Dean who took care of things.  Yet Sam gets all the credit. 

I've even seen people say that its was great that Dean got character growth because he didn't get upset at Sam for the Maggie thing.  Dean should have gotten upset.  Maggie would be dead if it wasn't for Dean.   Sam screwed up.  He deseved to hear he screwed up.  Instead everyone continues to tell him to prop him and boost his ego. 

I also noticed how responding and defending Sam isn't "confirming what was said" or "unecessary" or any other of the 100 excuses why Dean should never get the same treatment.

As I mentioned in the episode thread, I believe that the tact that Dabb is taking with shoving Super, Perfect Leader Sam down our throats is backfiring. It makes the character look like a farce and at the same time (IMO) lessens positive feelings about the character in general as a result.

[Lastcall]

1 minute ago, FlickChick said:

As I mentioned in the episode thread, I believe that the tact that Dabb is taking with shoving Super, Perfect Leader Sam down our throats is backfiring. It makes the character look like a farce and at the same time (IMO) lessens positive feelings about the character in general as a result.

It’s the same thing that happened in season 6. When you prop one character as the greatest hunter/leader/snowflake in the land and dump on the other, you make the other character the underdog. People generally root for the underdog so instead of making the pet character more popular, you just make them less.

[gonzosgirrl]

4 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Okay, wait. Are you saying that just because Sam has a different opinion of how he sees family than Dean does, this makes him wrong and means that he doesn't see Dean as family? Or that because at a time when he was angry, and he wasn't seeing how family ties was a good thing at that moment in his life, that he was saying Dean wasn't his family. I actually think that that says that he was acknowledging that Dean was his family and that that was part of the problem. And the "The Purge" speech, as awful as it was (and in my opinion, considering that it was a Carver era episode, was setting Sam up to be the "bad brother" again as carver was want to do for angst purposes) had nothing to do with family, in my opinion.

Dean literally said that he wasn't sure that Sam was his brother anymore... if he ever was his brother to begin with. That's not saying I see family differently. That's saying I'm not sure he's my family at all and maybe he never was. For me that's an entirely different thing.

And that's not even getting into how Dean so easily said "Bye Sam, see you never," in "The End," because at least that was acknowledging that there had been a connection there, but that Dean was now breaking it. Dean's rant in "Lucifer Rising" was trying to question their entire history, and denouncing everything Sam tried to do and all Sam went through trying to save Dean.

Basically, in my opinion, it was on the level of the "The Purge" speech but in reference to family with an added element of disowning Sam, because just like Sam was questioning Dean's raison d'etre in "The Purge" speech, here Dean was questioning Sam's entire family loyalty. Different subjects, but same condemnation, in my opinion.

Dean said Sam wasn't his brother, because at that point, he wasn't "Sam" any more. He wasn't just addicted to demon blood, he had just point blank chosen the demon and their mission over Dean, and put a period on it by choking Dean out. His eyes turned black when he killed Lilith for a reason. So while Dean said the words, Sam's actions spoke a whole lot louder, IMO.

And even with all that, once Dean had some space (and the princess speech), he took it all back and apologized to Sam for it - that Sam never heard it wasn't Dean's fault.

My comment was in relation to the 'what if Sam said...' conversation, and I contend he did, more than once.

Quote

Or that because at a time when he was angry, and he wasn't seeing how family ties was a good thing at that moment in his life, that he was saying Dean wasn't his family.

I think this is splitting hairs. No, Sam didn't say Dean wasn't his family, he just said he didn't want him to be. Maybe that's worse.

[ILoveReading]

Is it me or does Sam/Jared seem to be getting a lot more screen time than Dean/Jensen. 

It's almost like Jared signed a full time lead contract and Jensen signed a part time lead contract.

or does it just feel that way because the Sam scenes are so dull this year?

I'm not trying to start a debate on who had more screen time in the past.  I'm strictly talking about this season.

Edited November 10, 2018 by ILoveReading

[Res]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

When its about Sam its about Sam.  When its about Dean its still about Sam.

God forbid Dean get actual on screen acknowledgement of his traumas and accomplishments without the show feeling the need to shove the constant "But Sam had it worse"

I don't care about poor poor pitiful Sammeh isn't sleeping or eating. 

  Hide contents

I really hope this isn't the thing that will take a "bigger toll" on Dean because boring.

its his own damn fault for actually not actually working with his people.  He's not leading he just put himself in charge.  If "Chief" is so great and such a good teacher why is it at least two months, ( the three weeks Dean was missing, plus five weeks), they havent' learned a damn thing that they cant' help "chief."  Either Sam can't give up control, isn't the great and powerful teacher the show keeps trying to shove down our throats or he doesnt' trust the people under his "command"  None of that makes Sam leader.  To me he's still more of a follower. 

Dean spent this episode cleaning up after the great and powerful all supreme leader of the universe. It was Dean who made sure people were okay.  Dean who was able to use his brains to come up with a plan on the fly, Dean who took care of things.  Yet Sam gets all the credit. 

I've even seen people say that its was great that Dean got character growth because he didn't get upset at Sam for the Maggie thing.  Dean should have gotten upset.  Maggie would be dead if it wasn't for Dean.   Sam screwed up.  He deseved to hear he screwed up.  Instead everyone continues to tell him to prop him and boost his ego. 

I also noticed how responding and defending Sam isn't "confirming what was said" or "unecessary" or any other of the 100 excuses why Dean should never get the same treatment.

THIS SO MUCH!!!!  Especially the bolded parts. 

I mean, Dean is in the episode telling Sam he needs to sleep, which I know a lot of fans love because "brother-bond" (junk IMHO) but whatever. Dean's shown active caring but instead of Sam/writers being logical, or even remotely realistic, and have Sam agree then delegate some, to Dean even, NOPE, IT'S SAMNATURAL, dontcha know. Guess Dean's too imcompetent, untrustworthy or a clutz to handle hunter check in with actual video cams, etc. Way too over everyone but CHIEF'S head! Wait, Dean who? 

I so don't care about Sam running himself into the ground through his own complete stupidity, excessive control issues or overinflated ego, because it's one of them and he's preached enough to others about that so he doesn't get a pass from this viewer.

Only good news today was the ratings, especially in the second half of the episode. I was almost one fo the ones that turned it off but was glad I didn't miss Dean being BA Dean with that kill for a change. This 10 minutes really did wonders for my soul but I can't say it made up for all the other crap in the episode.

4 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Is it me or does Sam/Jared seem to be getting a lot more screen time than Dean/Jensen. 

It's almost like Jared signed a full time lead contract and Jensen signed a part time lead contract.

or does it just feel that way because the Sam scenes are so dull this year?

I'm not trying to start a debate on who had more screen time in the past.  I'm strictly talking about this season.

Sure feels that way to me but then apparently Jared's been having a lot more talks with Dabb while Jensen's been an island unto himself so I definitely believe there are some BTS manuverings. 

[BlueSapphire]

I’m just curious when this thread became less about Sam vs. Dean and has moved into Jared vs. Jensen territory lately. Dragging Jared must be the fun thing to do.

[DeeDee79]

31 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Is it me or does Sam/Jared seem to be getting a lot more screen time than Dean/Jensen. 

Don't worry; it's not just you that's noticed that. 

 

32 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

or does it just feel that way because the Sam scenes are so dull this year?

Could be because they are quite dull so far.

[Lastcall]

16 minutes ago, Res said:

Only good news today was the ratings, especially in the second half of the episode. I was almost one fo the ones that turned it off but was glad I didn't miss Dean being BA Dean with that kill for a change. This 10 minutes really did wonders for my soul but I can't say it made up for all the other crap in the episode.

The saddest thing is Supernatural is actually very easy to write for. All they had to do was write Dean saving the damsel, killing the monster and have him shed a tear a couple of times a year and it would be the number one show on the CW. They didnt even need to do it every episode. Use that formula then you can have an episode or two devoted to the legion of misfit Sues in between. The show would never have to worry about cancellation again instead of desperately trying to squeeze in their fan fic before it all collapses.

[Lastcall]

5 minutes ago, BlueSapphire said:

I’m just curious when this thread became less about Sam vs. Dean and has moved into Jared vs. Jensen territory lately. Dragging Jared must be the fun thing to do.

Some of it has to do with how much they are like their characters. The other part is how much It appears that TPTB are playing favorites in real life as well. Jared wants a beard...he gets a beard, Jared wants to talk about the show....the phone is glued to Dabb’s ear, Jared wants a storyline....you can guarantee they will give him anything he wants. Jensen on the other hand....screw him. Dabb can’t even be bothered to talk to him when he has a legitimate question. Jensen wants a beard....yeah, that’s a hard no. No one has worked harder for this show than Jensen, so when it looks like he is being treated like dirt, people tend to get defensive and start playing favorites themselves.

[BlueSapphire]

3 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

Some of it has to do with how much they are like their characters. The other part is how much It appears that TPTB are playing favorites in real life as well. Jared wants a beard...he gets a beard, Jared wants to talk about the show....the phone is glued to Dabb’s ear, Jared wants a storyline....you can guarantee they will give him anything he wants. Jensen on the other hand....screw him. Dabb can’t even be bothered to talk to him when he has a legitimate question. Jensen wants a beard....yeah, that’s a hard no. No one has worked harder for this show than Jensen, so when it looks like he is being treated like dirt, people tend to get defensive and start playing favorites themselves.

That’s no excuse for slamming one of the lead actors on this show, who works every bit as hard as everyone else.  How do you know Jensen hasn’t talked to Dabb about anything?

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, BlueSapphire said:

 How do you know Jensen hasn’t talked to Dabb about anything?

Because he said he called Dabb to talk about Michael, Dabb said "do whatever.  You remember how Christian played Michael?"  So when Jensen asked if he should play Michael like that Dabb was like "no, do whatever."  Jensen said the one thing he was relying on Dabb took away and then actually used the phrase, an island unto himself.  So no, Dabb didnt' talk to Jensen about anything.

Not to mention his blatent lies about how long Jensen would be playing Michael.  We aren't even getting the flash backs we were promised.  We had one flashback. 

Edited November 10, 2018 by ILoveReading

[BlueSapphire]

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

Because he said he called Dabb to talk about Michael, Dabb said "do whatever.  You remember how Christian played Michael?"  So when Jensen asked if he should play Michael like that Dabb was like "no, do whatever."  Jensen said the one thing he was relying on Dabb took away and then actually used the phrase, an island unto himself.  So no, Dabb didnt' talk to Jensen about anything.

The conversation still occurred, no matter what the topic was.  Jensen still talked to him.

[ILoveReading]

Just now, BlueSapphire said:

The conversation still occurred, no matter what the topic was.  Jensen still talked to him.

The reason Jensen called Dabb was to get some advice on how to play Michael. He admitted he was struggling to find the character and asked for help.  Dabb gave him nothing.  There was no conversation because Dabb couldn't even give Jensen that. 

[BlueSapphire]

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

The reason Jensen called Dabb was to get some advice on how to play Michael. He admitted he was struggling to find the character and asked for help.  Dabb gave him nothing.  There was no conversation because Dabb couldn't even give Jensen that. 

So what?  That has nothing to do with the Jared bashing that been fashionable lately and that I was referring to in Lastcall’s post.

[ILoveReading]

6 minutes ago, BlueSapphire said:

So what?

I was answering your question  about how we know that Dabb didn't talk to Jensen.  Its because Jensen told us.

Edited November 10, 2018 by ILoveReading