“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[Myrelle]

10 hours ago, Res said:

11 hours ago, Myrelle said:

 

I think the second that he signed on the dotted line, was when they started planning the bait and switch.

 

Considering how often they do this to him and his character, he only has himself to blame at this point.

IA and my frustration with him doing that reaches such proportions that I just want to quit watching this stupid show for good-and then I see him at cons like the one this weekend and on talk shows looking So. Fine.-as he was this morning and I just can't help but love him to pieces and know that I'll never be able to stay away as long as he's on this stupid, stupid show. 

Curse you, Jensen Ackles. Damn. :-/

Edited October 1, 2018 by Myrelle

[gonzosgirrl]

4 hours ago, Myrelle said:

IA and my frustration with him doing that reaches such proportions that I just want to quit watching this stupid show for good-and then I see him at cons like the one this weekend and on talk shows looking So. Fine.-as he was this morning and I just can't help but love him to pieces and know that I'll never be able to stay away as long as he's on this stupid, stupid show. 

Curse you, Jensen Ackles. Damn. :-/

 

My feelings exactly. I'll never be able to not watch him on my tv.  Thank Chuck for DVRs and the FF button.

Edited October 1, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[Res]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Me feelings exactly. I'll never be able to not watch him on my tv.  Thank Chuck for DVRs and the FF button.

That's what I used to think to but I really,. Really don't think I can take it anymore as I have enough frustration, disappointment and am too busy in RL to put up with the crap Dean's going through for job security. It's horrible feeling like the best thing that can happen to your favorite character is for him to die.

4 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

At least fire Dabb for the final goodbye.

No offense but who cares about that after he kills the show. I'd rather they fire him now and save what's left of the show.

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the Bitter Spoilers thread. Spoilers, so tagged that way:

18 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

That's what that one article made it sound like to me, too.

Spoiler

I'm also wondering if that whole Sam and Cas bonding thing in that one article wasn't just a smoke screen to divert a certain segment of this fandom from noticing that Cas would be showing more desperation than even his own blood family where it regards trying to get Dean back. 

 

If that's the case, then for me it would make as much sense as it did back in season 8 - which for me means almost none - and would be done (again in my opinion) so Sam could take some of the "heat" off of other characters, usually Dean. It would be like season 9... The writers couldn't let Dean look too badly for lying all that time about Gadreel, so they had Sam act somewhat against character in not forgiving Dean and had Sam focusing on ridiculous stuff to be angry about and to say in order to make Dean more sympathetic and look better in comparison.

So if this kind of thing happens, I'm going to suspect it's so that whatever Dean does as Michael won't look as "bad" even though it shouldn't anyway, because it will be Michael not Dean. In my opinion, the writers like to use Sam as a scapegoat in this way. If Dean does something questionable, they have Sam do something worse to "balance" it out. I put balance in quotes, because it usually ends up making Sam look much worse rather than actually balancing anything. In my opinion, it happened in season 4, 8, 9, and 10... and a little bit at the end of season 13. I can see the trend being repeated now to "distract" from whatever happens with Dean in Michael.

[ahrtee]

Maybe this sounds simplistic, but with so many people here complaining that TPTB pay more attention/service to certain segments of fandom while ignoring others, is there any way to force them to acknowledge that a large number of fans are really, *really* pissed off?  

Originally I thought getting all Dean fans to boycott one episode might make a dip in the ratings and warn them what would happen if all Dean girls stopped watching, but I know ratings don't work that way.  How about a Twitter campaign, where every unhappy Dean girl tweets simultaneously (say, at the midpoint in episode 3 or a Jensen-light episode) something like "Storyline for Jensen!" or "More Michael/Dean".  If it trends bigtime, maybe some of the more visible sites like EW or HuffPost might pick up on a story and we can get our disappointment at least acknowledged?  

I know we're not going to change the direction of the first half of the season, since it's already written (and mostly filmed) but they have been known to change course for the remainder of a season somewhat if there's enough negative feedback.  

Thoughts?  Comments?  Suggestions?  Should I just stop reading spoilers and keep my mouth shut?

[Res]

35 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Maybe this sounds simplistic, but with so many people here complaining that TPTB pay more attention/service to certain segments of fandom while ignoring others, is there any way to force them to acknowledge that a large number of fans are really, *really* pissed off?  

Originally I thought getting all Dean fans to boycott one episode might make a dip in the ratings and warn them what would happen if all Dean girls stopped watching, but I know ratings don't work that way.  How about a Twitter campaign, where every unhappy Dean girl tweets simultaneously (say, at the midpoint in episode 3 or a Jensen-light episode) something like "Storyline for Jensen!" or "More Michael/Dean".  If it trends bigtime, maybe some of the more visible sites like EW or HuffPost might pick up on a story and we can get our disappointment at least acknowledged?  

I know we're not going to change the direction of the first half of the season, since it's already written (and mostly filmed) but they have been known to change course for the remainder of a season somewhat if there's enough negative feedback.  

Thoughts?  Comments?  Suggestions?  Should I just stop reading spoilers and keep my mouth shut?

If it would work, I'd be all for it and love to do that but I don't know enough about ratings to be able to say. I also thought about an online petition but I don't think anyone values those at all. I'm open to suggestions as well to get out "displeasure" out there. At least that way we can say we tried. Does anyone know if the head of the network has a Twitter account? I forgot his name. 

[ster1]

37 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Maybe this sounds simplistic, but with so many people here complaining that TPTB pay more attention/service to certain segments of fandom while ignoring others, is there any way to force them to acknowledge that a large number of fans are really, *really* pissed off?  

Originally I thought getting all Dean fans to boycott one episode might make a dip in the ratings and warn them what would happen if all Dean girls stopped watching, but I know ratings don't work that way.  How about a Twitter campaign, where every unhappy Dean girl tweets simultaneously (say, at the midpoint in episode 3 or a Jensen-light episode) something like "Storyline for Jensen!" or "More Michael/Dean".  If it trends bigtime, maybe some of the more visible sites like EW or HuffPost might pick up on a story and we can get our disappointment at least acknowledged?  

I know we're not going to change the direction of the first half of the season, since it's already written (and mostly filmed) but they have been known to change course for the remainder of a season somewhat if there's enough negative feedback.  

Thoughts?  Comments?  Suggestions?  Should I just stop reading spoilers and keep my mouth shut?

I'm seeing a lot of really frustrated, bitter Dean fans over on twitter.  First Purgatory, then demon Dean, now this.....it's a bit much.  I think you'd find support for your suggestion.

[ILoveReading]

My guess is that Dabb and Singer are punishing Jensen for mocking the fight scene between Michael/Dean and Lucifer.

They both strike me as very petty men whose egos bruise easily. 

Otherwise I got nothing.

[gonzosgirrl]

I have been tweeting #DeanDeservesBetter for two seasons now, and it's no secret how badly I think Dabb is hurting this show, even if ratings aren't necessarily reflecting it. Personally, I don't think Neilsen ratings are a true reflection of viewership, but regardless of that, what Dabb is destroying is the legacy of the show. The Winchester legacy of being badass hunters, especially Dean. I will forever maintain that him becoming showrunner is the worst thing that ever happened to Dean. But his most heinous crime, IMO, is that he has ruined the joy of rewatching for me, with his complete disregard of canon and his thorough destruction of Mary Winchester. So yeah, if there is any concentrated effort to let him and the network know how hard he sucks, sign me up.

4 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

My guess is that Dabb and Singer are punishing Jensen for mocking the fight scene between Michael/Dean and Lucifer.

They both strike me as very petty men whose egos bruise easily. 

Otherwise I got nothing.

Totally believe that's a factor, along with the speculation that asking for the storyline maybe have been part of contract negotiations. I have no trouble believing both/either of them to be just that petty. "Be careful what you wish for", indeed. Somebody dreamed up those contracts of Crowley's, too, didn't they.

(Just in case it's not clear, all of this is my opinion. Mileages vary.)

Edited October 2, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[ahrtee]

23 minutes ago, Res said:

If it would work, I'd be all for it and love to do that but I don't know enough about ratings to be able to say. I also thought about an online petition but I don't think anyone values those at all. I'm open to suggestions as well to get out "displeasure" out there. At least that way we can say we tried. Does anyone know if the head of the network has a Twitter account? I forgot his name. 

I don't think we can affect ratings--it's a very limited number of households that are counted and they extrapolate from that.  Similarly, I don't think tweeting any of the SPN PTB will do anything much.  But I think if we can get publicity from outside the fandom (which can be ignored or brushed aside) they might pay more attention.  That's why a concerted effort of a large number of disgruntled fans would have to be organized (preferably with a front person who can be contacted for details/explanations).  We'd have to come up with a tagline/catchphrase that everyone will use, and set a time so it'll overwhelm.  I'm completely SM-stupid; have no accounts (including Twitter or even FB) at all, so tell me if it's logical.  We'd have to have everyone who's unhappy contact every other person/site they read/are in touch with to spread the word, so we have to have time and message set in advance, and give everyone enough time and advance warning to set things in place. 

My guess would be if Michael is gone by ep. 3, that might be the time, or one of the eps focusing on the WS, but there has to be enough time that they can still get a course correction in at least some of the eps.  

Thoughts?

[Res]

2 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I don't think we can affect ratings--it's a very limited number of households that are counted and they extrapolate from that.  Similarly, I don't think tweeting any of the SPN PTB will do anything much.  But I think if we can get publicity from outside the fandom (which can be ignored or brushed aside) they might pay more attention.  That's why a concerted effort of a large number of disgruntled fans would have to be organized (preferably with a front person who can be contacted for details/explanations).  We'd have to come up with a tagline/catchphrase that everyone will use, and set a time so it'll overwhelm.  I'm completely SM-stupid; have no accounts (including Twitter or even FB) at all, so tell me if it's logical.  We'd have to have everyone who's unhappy contact every other person/site they read/are in touch with to spread the word, so we have to have time and message set in advance, and give everyone enough time and advance warning to set things in place. 

My guess would be if Michael is gone by ep. 3, that might be the time, or one of the eps focusing on the WS, but there has to be enough time that they can still get a course correction in at least some of the eps.  

Thoughts?

So should we start a new thread for this or like a group chat type thing for planning? I'm sure the mods won't like us using this thread for this much longer. I'm not too SM bright either but I'll be a front person if no one else will. Is there a way to group PM?

[gonzosgirrl]

Yeah, you know what though? It's just not worth this kind of aggravation and insult. It's a tv show and it's supposed to be fun, not work, and certainly not high blood pressure-inducing. Between Dabb & Company ruining the characters I love, Creation pricing cons out of reach, and the lack of interest from the actors (unless they are being paid for it), it seems like it's time to stop beating my head against the wall. Clearly, the show is leaning towards the soap stories and for some (unfathomable to me) reason, they want Sam to be the hero of the story, with the girls and the nougat baby filling in the rest of the space. That's just not something I'm interested in watching.

Maybe that impression will turn out to be wrong - and if it is, well that's what DVDs are for. Meantime, I don't have to continue to feel stupid for tuning in.

[devlin]

How annoyed must gamble be.  The show has finally turned into the sam show she always wanted and she is not there anymore

[Myrelle]

10 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I have been tweeting #DeanDeservesBetter for two seasons now, and it's no secret how badly I think Dabb is hurting this show, even if ratings aren't necessarily reflecting it. Personally, I don't think Neilsen ratings are a true reflection of viewership, but regardless of that, what Dabb is destroying is the legacy of the show. The Winchester legacy of being badass hunters, especially Dean. I will forever maintain that him becoming showrunner is the worst thing that ever happened to Dean. But his most heinous crime, IMO, is that he has ruined the joy of rewatching for me, with his complete disregard of canon and his thorough destruction of Mary Winchester. So yeah, if there is any concentrated effort to let him and the network know how hard he sucks, sign me up.

I've read that snail mail is a good avenue to take to get your point across, especially if you can get enough people sending the same message, although I'm very skeptical of that, too, being that, IMO, Dabb/Singer have been trying to please predominantly the shippers on Twitter more than any other segments of the fandom since Dabb was named showrunner. Well, when he wasn't pimping his spin-off, that is.

As someone else mentioned, it sounds like with S14 we're going to be getting yet another season of Samnatural, with a side of Soapernatural involving all of Dabb's favorites thrown in there, too-of which Jensen/Dean is definitely not one; and anything to do with either the actor or the character is really only worthwhile for promotional and publicity reasons, but not worth actually writing for.

If the season takes the turn that I'm pretty sure it will and

Spoiler

Michael!Dean is gone by ep. 2, with little screen-time having been afforded the character also 

then we should be ready to hit them on all fronts and we should write Jensen also, IMO, because after the mess that was made of S5 for Dean and his fandom and then Gamble and then Purgatory and S8 and that awful Trials storyline and then the measly three episodes of Demon Dean and the disjointed manner that the MOC storyline was written, if this happens again and to an even greater extent(and when we were promised more for what reason?-to rub salt in the wound this time, maybe-because that's how it feels), then they all need to know that the Dean fandom(that is fans of Dean-not bibros and not Wincesters and not members of the Destiel contingent and certainly not shippers of the actors!) is in danger of becoming extinct, because I think it will be-and Jensen needs to know this because, honestly, I think that at this point in the series, he's the only one who might care about that.

[Pondlass1]

Jensen is too good of an actor for this show.  They have gold in their hands and they let it slip through their fingers.  Any opportunity to spotlight Jensen is rushed and poorly written and Dean's rarely provided  any follow through or downtime.   Dean just jumps back into the game.

I get the impression TPTB have to be bonked over the head, so any twitter or whatever mass complaint will go unnoticed.  They did pick up on the Samelia discontent. The plot was dropped like a hot tamale and the actress never even invited to a convention even though she featured in more episodes than others.  

I  get the impression ice cold Mary complaints also reached the ears of TPTB.  Thus the scene with Sam and Jensen which, of course, centred around baby Sammy.  It was supposed to humanize Mother but only resulted in accenting Jensen's brilliance as an actor and Sam's weakness.

So some complaints do reach their ears, but they respond so inadequately.  Like they don't understand the issue.

One thing of late is that Jensen is speaking out.  He says things at conventions and receives cheers and applause. Once the season is underway he might speak out even more if Michael is shoved over and not explored.

Jensen might be our voice.

But, anyway, it won't matter much.  The series is in its December. 

[ILoveReading]

11 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Jensen is too good of an actor for this show.  They have gold in their hands and they let it slip through their fingers.  Any opportunity to spotlight Jensen is rushed and poorly written and Dean's rarely provided  any follow through or downtime.   Dean just jumps back into the game.

It's like the producers are afraid of Jensen's talent.   Of what might happen if they truly let him off the chain.  That he might competely over shadow they're pets.  He does that anyway, so its like they deliberately try and push Dean into the shadows. 

I think its petty egos and behind the scenes issues myself.   I mean its Dark Angel all over again with the writing for Dean these last two seasons. 

Sometimes I wish Jensen was a bit more of a diva but then he wouldn't' be the Jensen I admire so much.

Edited October 2, 2018 by ILoveReading

[gonzosgirrl]

Suddenly Jensen doing most of the early promo and publicity himself (Jared's a good guy, but he never met a camera or microphone he didn't love - his absence is conspicous, IMO), and Jensen's pumped attitude about Michael/Dean and S14.

Jensen doesn't read ahead. Jared does.

Edited October 2, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

It's like the producers are afraid of Jensen's talent.   Of what might happen if they truly let him off the chain.  That he might competely over shadow they're pets.  He does that anyway, so its like they deliberately try and push Dean into the shadows. 

I think its petty egos and behind the scenes issues myself.   I mean its Dark Angel all over again with the writing for Dean these last two seasons. 

Sometimes I wish Jensen was a bit more of a diva but then he wouldn't' be the Jensen I admire so much.

 

ITA with all of this, but given the flack he gave them(and is still giving them) over the botched fight scene, I don't see him  keeping his mouth shut if they screw him over again with the Mean storyline-and IMO, he should be encouraged to give them more flack if they do that to him and his fandom yet again. I know that he will wait-and likely until the end of the season and much for him depends on how long he re-signed on for. We do not have to wait that long, however. I'm going to begin drafting a letter this weekend because, like Dean, I'm going to go down swingin' on my way out, if that's what it comes to for me with this show.

And they might not listen and he might continue to sign on with these bozos, but at least I will have had my say; and I know that it will be cathartic for me to do that, if nothing else.

ETA: I will just add that OTT anger serves no purpose in a letter like this, if anyone else is thinking of doing it. Statement of facts are better and respectfully worded opinions w/o attacking his friendships and professional associations-even if you are of the opinion that he's being used by one or even both. But IMO, there's nothing wrong with stating that you're aware of what went on BTS of Dark Angel as some of us are. And props for the Ackting, w/o attacking his co-workers and peers is fine, too. JMO, of course.

Edited October 2, 2018 by Myrelle

[BlueSapphire]

I'm just curious why all this BTS stuff with Dark Angel keeps surfacing.  That was years ago, and it just seems extra silly and petty to bring it up constantly.  For me that just perpetuates the victim!Jensen mentality that has surfaced in the last so many years.

[gonzosgirrl]

7 minutes ago, BlueSapphire said:

I'm just curious why all this BTS stuff with Dark Angel keeps surfacing.  That was years ago, and it just seems extra silly and petty to bring it up constantly.  For me that just perpetuates the victim!Jensen mentality that has surfaced in the last so many years.

That's hilarious. I've never seen another actor with less of a 'victim mentality' than Jensen. And if you're talking about his fans, well 'we' definitely don't have that market cornered.

[Katy M]

13 minutes ago, BlueSapphire said:

I'm just curious why all this BTS stuff with Dark Angel keeps surfacing.  That was years ago, and it just seems extra silly and petty to bring it up constantly.  For me that just perpetuates the victim!Jensen mentality that has surfaced in the last so many years.

I don't think I've ever seen or heard Jensen complain about anything besides the finale fight scene. It's mostly others on his behalf, and he can't really control that.  He is no way, shape, or form a victim of anything. By all appearances, he has a pretty good life.

[Myrelle]

The BTS politics on Dark Angel was something that never came out until after the show was cancelled when one of the writers spilled everything about it.

The point being that some of us know that this kind of stuff does happen even if it isn't talked about while the show is still on the air. And Jensen put up with it on that show and the details never came from him. In fact, he forgave everyone involved and even found the grace to use youth as a reasoning for some of it-which even if it was the reasoning and not just an excuse, the fact remains that it happened and even he has acknowledged that it did happen, but that he's forgiven those who were involved. The star of that show even apologized to him for it years later.

[devlin]

I am confused as to why the writers are trying to push sam into being the leader, the take charge guy. If you ask me it just highlights the weakness in Jared’s acting style. In my opinion he comes across as smug and condescending. 

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the "Bitter Spoilers" thread. No spoilers:

3 hours ago, ahrtee said:

The opposite of leader is *not* follower.  Sam has never followed anyone (even Dean or John) blindly, especially when he thinks he's right.  So trying to make him look weak because he didn't lead others is bull.  Not everyone has the temperament to lead, and it's not the ultimate success.  Hunters (or hunting) by nature are solitary and independent, not leaders *or* followers.

I agree. And to expand on what I said over in the spoilers thread, this was one of the things that pissed me off about the end of season 12. I know others saw some Sam pimping moment in that stupid speech to the other hunters, but I saw the opposite. I saw a "see this, this is what Sam should have been doing all these years. He's just been phoning it in, being lazy, hiding behind Dean all these years as a loser because he's not been a leader" scene. And then - as I predicted - there was pretty much no follow up at all the next season. So for me, pretty much the writers set up a scene insinuating that Sam was weak for not being a leader before... and then Sam went back to not being the leader, so now not only was he not a leader - well, until the end of the season, but I'll get to that in a minute - the message I got was that he's now also a weak, lazy loser because he isn't a leader. Which why? What's the message here the writers are trying to tell me? That Sam has been a loser for 12 seasons because he didn't lead or like to lead, but now, now he'll finally be a worthy hero? I don't find that to be a pro-Sam message at all. I find that to be insulting to the character, myself.

And then when the writers do finally deign to let Sam lead at the end of the season, they make sure he screws it up in almost every way possible. Again, for me, this is not a positive Sam message, but a negative one. The writers didn't even try to not make it a disaster. Why, for example, did the guy have to be killed by the vampires? What purpose did that serve in the narrative? Sam could have been killed just as easily for plot purposes while saving the guy's life, but nope it's Dean, and only Dean that I recall who saves one of the civilians - twice. The message the writers sent me with that scene: "See what happens when you try to lead Sam? You screw it up royally."

I just didn't see any attempt at a positive "Sam as leader" message. As I said, it would've been easy to do while still accomplishing the ultimate plot goal of a dead Sam, but in my opinion, the writers purposely chose not to do so, and then contrasted it glaringly by having Dean actually save the civilian he was in charge of. It's hard for me to get a "we want Sam to step up as leader" message out of a season that painted Sam as more incompetent than he's previously been shown to be.

Quote

OTOH, if, as others have pointed out, Sam's always been wrong whenever he's gone against the others and done his own thing, why in hell would anyone want to follow him?  All they'd have to do is make a list of his wrong/stupid decisions and show the others. :)  

It's like the message is that because Sam isn't a leader like Dean, this means he's not only weak, lazy, etc, but that he can't be right either, because only leaders are right and have a worthy contribution. This isn't the way it used to be earlier on the show either, because in the early years, sometimes Sam did disagree, but sometimes he was right. Things started to go off the rails in season 4,*** but they kind of righted a bit in season 5-7... Starting with 8, though, yeah, the message seemed to be pretty much if Sam disagrees with Dean or tries to have any opinion or do anything on his own, he's wrong. For me, the most glaring example of that was when Gadreel turned out to be "misunderstood" and ended up helping to save the world. So Sam was even shown to be "wrong" for being mad about Gadreel using his body to murder people, and if there's something you should get to be right about, I would think it would be that.

The main exception to this - so far - seems to be Jack, but sadly, I'm still waiting for that one to blow up in Sam's face somehow.

*** It was a little annoying to me that it was emphasized in the narrative how Sam made the "wrong" choices in season 4 - which admittedly he did, big time - but it's not like he was the only one who did. Dean was messed up - though I don't think the writers did enough to show just how messed up myself, since I think they made Dean too functional - and so had some major excuses, but he did also believe the angels... who were also not the right side either, in that they were also bad. Castiel also chose to follow the angels and be snowed until it was too late - twice actually. He had a chance to say something after "On the Head of a Pin," but chose not to share relevant information until it was too late... when the angels caught and "reprogrammed" him. I'm pretty sure that if Dean had known that there were a bunch of angels around who wanted to raise Lucifer, he might've been a bit more wary about listening to them and maybe even have tried to find a way to avoid them more readily. Or contacted Anna to find out what was going on. Castiel even had a chance to listen to Anna... but didn't, and ended up betraying her in the worst way possible.

So yeah, in my opinion, Sam wasn't the only one who made "bad choices." The narrative just emphasized his bad choices much more afterwards.

[catrox14]

I'm not sure if Dabb is really even thinking about Dean, Sam or Cas' legacies in this show.  Last season, when he made Dean into a fucking schoolyard bully by having him put a gun to Kaia's head, and having Sam stand there stammering without interceding or trying to explain that Dean was out of his mind after learning Mary was really alive, and Cas being stupid and kidnapped by Asmodeus, along with even Jack being kind of a douchebag to Kaia by seeking her out to use her, was all done in fanservice IMO for Wayward Sisters and that they would be strong female characters but only once they showed just how shitty the men were in "The Bad Place" and they saving them. 

That showed me then what Dabb thinks about the three leads in this show. They are now nothing more than plot devices and it's obvious. It makes fans of all three angry. Look at how Cas was useless in the finale with getting thrown around. He barely had any lines at all. 

I will remain convinced that since Dabb didn't get his spinoff, he's going to take down SPN as it is and rebuild it into his vision and that IMO does not include Dean currently, Cas as barely a mentor to Jack, and Sam being given a leadership role that he doesn't even really want.  So then guest characters will come and give them all the lessons to be better people after Dabb made them worse.

[FlickChick]

@catrox14, oh God, I hope you're wrong, but I'm afraid that you're right. Just look at who was the focus of the last two seasons - everyone except Sam, Dean and Cas. What I don't understand is that Dabb has been on this show for a long, long time - so why would he want to destroy the story that he had a hand in telling for years? It just doesn't make sense to me. :(

[ILoveReading]

7 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

@catrox14, oh God, I hope you're wrong, but I'm afraid that you're right. Just look at who was the focus of the last two seasons - everyone except Sam, Dean and Cas. What I don't understand is that Dabb has been on this show for a long, long time - so why would he want to destroy the story that he had a hand in telling for years? It just doesn't make sense to me. :(

I honestly believe Dabb is still bitter over how unpopular blood line was.  Now with a 2nd failed show he seems to have doubled down.

[Casseiopeia]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

 Look at how Cas was useless in the finale with getting thrown around. He barely had any lines at all. 

I'll never forget the S11 finale with everyone sitting around in a bar while Dean went off to do couples counseling.  Misha/Castiel sat in the bar and didn't say one single word, not even to Chuck/God his Father and the object of his quest in S5.  And now 3 season finales later nothing has improved. I just recently rewatched the S13 finale.  Awful stunt work aside the entire episode was about Jack and Lucifer.  Only in the very end did Dabb make the Winchesters part of the story.  Otherwise they went on a lame useless werewolf? vampire? hunt and ran away from Michael.

I agree Dabb has never forgiven the fans for Bloodlines.  

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

I agree Dabb has never forgiven the fans for Bloodlines.  

And the fans have never forgiven him. And it should just be expunged from the entire show. 

[gonzosgirrl]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

And the fans have never forgiven him. And it should just be expunged from the entire show. 

As should Dabb.

[ster1]

19 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

I'll never forget the S11 finale with everyone sitting around in a bar while Dean went off to do couples counseling. [snip] the entire episode was about Jack and Lucifer.  Only in the very end did Dabb make the Winchesters part of the story.  Otherwise they went on a lame useless werewolf? vampire? hunt and ran away from Michael.

 

 

Sidelining the 3 main characters has been Dabb's MO since he took over in the second half of season 11.  The Darkness storyline morphed into God's Family Drama;  the BMOL was Mary's storyline, and last season was essentially about Jack/Lucifer/the AU people/Wayward.  Participation by the brothers in the season finales feels shoehorned, like Dabb and co suddenly remembered they pay these guys so maybe they should throw them into a few scenes.  And it's pretty clear the writers can't be bothered to figure out what to do with Cas.  It's not even about their decreased filming schedules - it's just laziness. The writers could figure out how to better incorporate the characters if they put in a smidge of thought and effort

[Casseiopeia]

16 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

As should Dabb.

LikeLikeLikeLikeLike....

[devlin]

I can’t understand the writers reluctance to give Jensen an actual storyline that lasts longer than a couple of episodes. It almost makes you wonder if Jared’s contract states that he is the number one actor and therefore sam is the only one allowed a decent storyline. I doubt this is the case but with this shows track record, you can’t blame a girl for wondering?

[Myrelle]

Quote

Then there's editing under Dabb...who okays the editing...

Brought over from the bitter spoilers thread.

I think that the editing is a very real problem now, too, but I'm also unsure who is ultimately responsible for the finished product.

Does the showrunner sit in on the editing or does he just view the finished product and ok it or nix it? Or does he even check it?

Do the directors sit in also?

Does anyone know?

Edited October 4, 2018 by Myrelle

[Reganne]

8 hours ago, devlin said:

I can’t understand the writers reluctance to give Jensen an actual storyline that lasts longer than a couple of episodes. It almost makes you wonder if Jared’s contract states that he is the number one actor and therefore sam is the only one allowed a decent storyline. I doubt this is the case but with this shows track record, you can’t blame a girl for wondering?

Sam hasn't had a storyline since season 9, so I highly doubt that.  

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Myrelle said:

Brought over from the bitter spoilers thread.

I think that the editing is a very real problem now, too, but I'm also unsure who is ultimately responsible for the finished product.

Does the showrunner sit in on the editing or does he just view the finished product and ok it or nix it? Or does he even check it?

Do the directors sit in also?

Does anyone know?

Jensen said that the director doesn't participate in final edit of the episode that goes to air; that the final edit which is the one that goes to air, is a combo of network and the EPs meaning Dabb and Singer.

[gonzosgirrl]

15 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Jensen said that the director doesn't participate in final edit of the episode that goes to air; that the final edit which is the one that goes to air, is a combo of network and the EPs meaning Dabb and Singer.

Which of course means that they are ultimately responsible for that marionette fight making it to air. But in my opinion their biggest editing fail is the mirror scene in regarding Dean. Breaking that up so much is a crime against editing.

[catrox14]

34 minutes ago, Reganne said:

Sam hasn't had a storyline since season 9, so I highly doubt that.  

I guess that is a matter of how one defines a SL. Sam's had saving Dean from the MoC, the Lucifer revisit in s11 and him going to the cage and saying NO, again. In s12 he had the BMOL to a large degree even if it was more tell than show  aside from the confrontation with the Alpha Vampire and then in 12.22 where he lead the hunters into battle against the BMOL. He then had his attachment to Jack in s13 and being more or less the driving force behind trying to save Mary from the AU.   I realize Lucifer overshadows most of s11 through s13 but that's what I recollect for Sam. 

Dean had the MoC SL from 9 to the end of 10.  Then he the nebulous attachment to Amara and being the soul bomb. S12 he had basically nothing other than angsting about Mary and Cas which lead into s13 and him grieving over Cas and Mary and being mean to Jack until he wasn't and then getting the last minute AU Michael thing.

[catrox14]

16 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Which of course means that they are ultimately responsible for that marionette fight making it to air. But in my opinion their biggest editing fail is the mirror scene in regarding Dean. Breaking that up so much is a crime against editing.

I agree, 100%. They could have easily had the Sam/Rowena convo before and after that scene and made the emotional impact of Dean's deterioration even more profound. Sadly, that would have required Dabb/Singer to have some kind of artistic insight and appreciation of holding the camera on a face for more than a hot minute. Singer is too stuck in the 70s and 80s with fast zoom in's and a last minute freeze frame( LOLOL). Anything else I have to say about that would need to be in the B v J thread.

[Reganne]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I guess that is a matter of how one defines a SL. Sam's had saving Dean from the MoC, the Lucifer revisit in s11 and him going to the cage and saying NO, again. In s12 he had the BMOL to a large degree even if it was more tell than show  aside from the confrontation with the Alpha Vampire and then in 12.22 where he lead the hunters into battle against the BMOL. He then had his attachment to Jack in s13 and being more or less the driving force behind trying to save Mary from the AU.   I realize Lucifer overshadows most of s11 through s13 but that's what I recollect for Sam. 

Dean had the MoC SL from 9 to the end of 10.  Then he the nebulous attachment to Amara and being the soul bomb. S12 he had basically nothing other than angsting about Mary and Cas which lead into s13 and him grieving over Cas and Mary and being mean to Jack until he wasn't and then getting the last minute AU Michael thing.

Idk.  People say that Dean didn't have a storyline when it was about him saving Sam.  The Lucifer revisit was short lived and turned into more of a Cas storyline when he said yes to Lucifer.  To me, the BMOL was more of a Mary storyline.  And the leader of the hunters lasted one episode.  The thing with Jack was Jack's storyline, not Sam's.  People complain when Dean's part is a supporting role so I'm not counting that.  And by the end of season 13, Dean was the driving force to save Mary.  Sam only had hope at the beginning.  Dean got to actually go to AU initially.  He got Kaia to help them and he was the one that actually got the group to Mary and Jack after Sam died.

[ILoveReading]

27 minutes ago, Reganne said:

People say that Dean didn't have a storyline when it was about him saving Sam. 

That's because he didn't.  When Sam is trying to save Dean he's usually given a proactive role, like with the demon blood, working with Ruby, the whole Lester thing, the book of the damned stuff, etc.  With Dean its strictly reactive.  he's there as the wind beneath Sam's wings and he is literally reduced to bathing and feeding Sam.  IMO, those two things don't' compare. 

The Lucifer stuff was also connected to Sam having visions.  It was a major part of the first half of the season.  While if Dean locked himself away after episode 2 becasue he was worried about Amara's influence and he only released himself in episode 22 nothing about that story line would really change because Amara was pretty much Dean who after episode 9.  Even episode 9 was just a repeat of the first scene we saw with her.  That storyline was never developed.  I still don't know what Amara was connected to Dean.  Then they threw he whole mark of cain mythology out the window to justify Sam heroically taking it on.  Apparently, being worthy to carry it just means you never had it before.  Deans' big moment with Amara was shared with a lady with a pigeon, and the very next season suddenly it was the power of God.

It was the same with s12 and 13.  If Dean decided he wanted space too after Mary left and he came back when Sam put out the call for the hunters the season, other than the episode Regarding Dean would require no major rewrites.  Same with ep 13.  If Dean took a break after Cas and came back after in episode 22 to help go rescue Mary no major rewrites, would be required. 

I disagree that Sam taking the lead was one ep.  Because I find most MOTW episodes have Sam predominately in Dean's old role.  He finds the majority of the cases, does the majority of the research, comes up with most of the plan, interviews most of the guest starts, makes the motivational speeches and gets quiet a few of the kills.    While Dean gets comic relief.  (Scorpion and the Frog is a big example of this). 

The alpha vampire, the alpha hell hound are two big examples.  They even created a Cain/yellow eyed Demon hybrid just so Sam could kill him, and with Michael's lance no less.  While Dean's connection to the all of these things was ignored.  Dean's experience with hell hounds was the only thing left out of the previouslies.  Twice that season Dean disappeared for the entire 3rd act and he was sent wonder in the woods while Sam got to kill the hell hound. 

Sam might not have gotten the death blow in with Lucifer but he got the major assist while Dean got his ass handed to him in a marionette fight, despite Michael being in his true vessel.

Sam played a major role in Jack's early development while Dean's grief was ignored and shamed.  Then Sam got a grief arc that was given more attention and support than Dean's ever got. 

Dean leading the charge to save Mary was about Sam's traumas.  Not to mention, while Dean was talking about how much Sam suffered and was tortured we get a juxtaposition of scenes of a grown up Sam successfully leading the charge against the Brits while Dean gets to talk about how he failed Sam.  I dont' see that as just a coincidence. 

So I don't agree Sam never had a story line. 

Even is Dean had one, he wasn't really a part of it.

Edited October 4, 2018 by ILoveReading

[Myrelle]

Sam is being acknowledged as a leader by practically every writer on the staff. If Dean had been given that designation at any time by any of them, I think then it could be argued that he was in more than strictly a supportive role; but when Sam gets myth arc storylines(which the Lucifer visions was, IMO, too) all we've ever heard was crickets from the writers regarding any kind of a Dean storyline. They don't even talk about the character or the role they're thinking of or have planned for him. 

And honestly, that's my biggest beef with this whole sudden LeaderSam thing.

Edited October 4, 2018 by Myrelle

[ILoveReading]

9 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

And honestly, that's my biggest beef with this whole sudden LeaderSam thing.

This is my problem too.  I dont' think many would argue that Dean has been the leader of Team Free Will pretty much since the beginning but it was never mentioned in context with storylines or as a positive trait that Dean possessed. 

But not that its become a major thing suddenly is Sam, Sam, Sam, and Sam some more with the writers acting like it was Dean holding Sam back from this right place. 

It's irritating that the writers can't even let Dean keep this one positive trait.

It's comes across as forced for this very reason.

Edited October 4, 2018 by ILoveReading

[Reganne]

22 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

This is my problem too.  I dont' think many would argue that Dean has been the leader of Team Free Will pretty much since the beginning but it was never mentioned in context with storylines or as a positive trait that Dean possessed. 

But not that its become a major thing suddenly is Sam, Sam, Sam, and Sam some more with the writers acting like it was Dean holding Sam back from this right place. 

It's irritating that the writers can't even let Dean keep this one positive trait.

It's comes across as forced for this very reason.

They dont need to mention it because they have shown it through out the years which is far better than telling.  The problem is sometimes these people say things, but then they fail to show it onscreen.  

As far as grief arcs, I thought Sam's was essentially glossed over.  A couple lines to Rowena and him lying in bed at one point... that's it.  Almost like it was an afterthought. And they figured they should add it in.

[devlin]

54 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

This is my problem too.  I dont' think many would argue that Dean has been the leader of Team Free Will pretty much since the beginning but it was never mentioned in context with storylines or as a positive trait that Dean possessed. 

But not that its become a major thing suddenly is Sam, Sam, Sam, and Sam some more with the writers acting like it was Dean holding Sam back from this right place. 

It's irritating that the writers can't even let Dean keep this one positive trait.

It's comes across as forced for this very reason.

Not to mention all of a sudden sam became the weapons expert. They are literally stripping everything away from dean and giving it to sam and making it a big deal. I will not be surprised if next season baby breaks down and only sam will be able to fix her. Thank god sam is finally now able to breathe and he is able to become the man he was always meant to be 

[Res]

32 minutes ago, devlin said:

Not to mention all of a sudden sam became the weapons expert. They are literally stripping everything away from dean and giving it to sam and making it a big deal. I will not be surprised if next season baby breaks down and only sam will be able to fix her. Thank god sam is finally now able to breathe and he is able to become the man he was always meant to be 

Maybe if they let Dean stay possessed, Sam will continue to be that man and everyone will be happy because if no one there wants him around, for God's sake, let him go and move on to somewhere else that he doesn't impact people's breathing. He'd be better for it in the end.

[ILoveReading]

13 hours ago, Reganne said:

They dont need to mention it because they have shown it through out the years which is far better than telling. 

Then why all off a sudden to the writers feel a constant need to mention it in regards to Sam.  Why are the writers so allergic to actually highlighting this as a strength of Dean's.   Why is there this sudden need to push this characteristic onto Sam and act like it should have been his all along, that Dean somehow prevented him from taking his rightful place. 

Why is it all off a sudden that act like Dean being in the lead was just another example of him being bossy and holding Sam back?

Why is there a need to strip yet another thing from Dean and give it to Sam.  

This is my issue

[Myrelle]

13 hours ago, devlin said:

Not to mention all of a sudden sam became the weapons expert.

That pissed me off so much.

 

32 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Then why all off a sudden to the writers feel a constant need to mention it in regards to Sam.  Why are the writers so allergic to actually highlighting this as a strength of Dean's.   Why is there this sudden need to push this characteristic onto Sam and act like it should have been his all along, that Dean somehow prevented him from taking his rightful place. 

Why is it all off a sudden that act like Dean being in the lead was just another example of him being bossy and holding Sam back?

Why is there a need to strip yet another thing from Dean and give it to Sam.  

This is my issue

Mine too. 

And no way am I ever going to accept Sam as The Leader if the only way they can think of to make that happen is by completely taking that role away from Dean.

[Pondlass1]

Sam's the smart one.  Bob Singer said so.

Leader and follower is discussed here a lot.  Leaders are nothing without followers, so both are equally important. 

Sam is both a leader and a follower.  Dean is a leader only.  There is nothing wrong with this scenario, it's not a slight against Sam.  

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Pondlass1 said:

am is both a leader and a follower.  Dean is a leader only.  There is nothing wrong with this scenario, it's not a slight against Sam.  

I can't see them spending all this time focusing on Sam being a leader just to tell a story of it's okay for him to be a follower.