“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

ahrtee · August 26, 2018

2 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Plus, it was his fault that Dean was in Hell in the first place, so he was trying to make it right.

It wasn't his fault. It was Dean's decision, and no one forced him into it (grief notwithstanding) any more than Dean forced John to sell his soul.

Both boys take blame for things that aren't their faults, and (often) don't accept responsibility for the things that *are.*

But yes, there's more than enough stupid to go around.

AwesomO4000 · August 26, 2018

7 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

1) I'm sorry; please correct me if I'm misinterpreting what you're saying here. It sounds like you're putting the blame ( or part of it ) for Sam's dark actions in season 4 at Dean's feet because he should have known what would happen once he was burning in hell and not at his brothers side. 2) Not being snarky at all but is that what your overall point is?

1) I actually said above specifically that Sam's bad decisions were his and his alone. I was very specific about that.

2) My point was - and I can see how it might be confusing if you didn't read my previous long ass post (wish I could say things more succinctly but I usually just end up messing up what I'm trying to ay when I do) - that as @Airmid said better, Dean wasn't thinking about the consequences when he made the deal, because he wasn't thinking rationally... and also as Airmid said, just because we knew why Dean did it... Sam didn't. Instead, Dean - to avoid explaining all of that - told Sam that he made the deal for selfish reasons and that he was entitled to that. While I'm sure that Sam didn't actually believe that - in my opinion - it would make sense - to me - for Sam, once Dean was dead and Sam knew he was in hell suffering because of Sam and after all that Sam had gone through with Gabriel's messing with him, to maybe feel a little angry with Dean for making the deal to begin with. My point was that instead of Sam going with "you're weak," it would've made much more sense to me for Sam to be angry with Dean for his reckless decision ("you never should've made that deal to begin with") - especially after Sam learned that angels and heaven were real, because then Sam would've considered maybe he didn't have to be here with all of this guilt and pain, but might have instead been in heaven... and then feeling guilty about feeling that way since Dean had gone through so much. To me, that would've made much more sense as Sam's motivation and conflict with Dean than what we got. My scenario actually address something Dean had had at least some control over (as far as Sam knew) - his original decision - and would've been something that would've been sympathetic for Sam to be angry about (Dean himself had gone through it with John) rather than what we got which was Sam blaming Dean for being weak for breaking under torture which Dean had no idea would cause the problems it did... which just made Sam look like an asshole.

I didn't say that Dean should've know what was going to happen with Sam. But if he had stopped a moment and had been thinking rationally, he might've considered Sam's revenge tendencies, that he might be leaving Sam alone to deal with the YED again if he brought him back, or that Sam did still have strange powers and Dean had had warnings from John (coming from Missouri) about Sam, so maybe Sam wasn't going to be "just fine" under the circumstances. So considering all of that, if Dean had been thinking rationally, he wouldn't have - and shouldn't have - made that deal.

7 hours ago, Airmid said:

I don't think Dean was capable of thinking the consequence of the deal through when he made it, and he shouldn't have been left alone in all honesty. Bobby should have known better.

It also doesn't help that we as an audience got to see Dean in total breakdown mode and his lack of mental wellness when he did what he did. Sam, however, did not, and could not know just how bad off Dean was when he met the demon. And it wasn't like Dean was going to tell him something like: "Yeah I was weeping and had drunk two-fifths of whiskey in like a day, and I loved you so much that I didn't want to risk you being in hell instead of me." Because silent man pain is more important, I guess. Kind of a depressing thought that some things could have been softened, if not avoided, if Dean had been open about why he did what he did to help with Sam's guilt, especially seeing that Dean was carrying his own.

Yes, this - thank you. This was my point. That because of all of this, it would've made sense to me if Sam had been angry about what Dean had done... because he didn't really know why Dean did it and also felt guilty for feeling angry (much like Dean had). And for me that would've been much better as a motivation for Sam - and also have acknowledged in the narrative how the consequences of the deal itself had messed with Sam - than just making Sam look like a dick for calling Dean "weak." When John made the deal and it messed with Dean, we got Dean - and the narrative - addressing it. With Sam we instead got the narrative addressing it before Dean died, but after... the narrative kind of forgot about that part and we got... what we got.

6 hours ago, Airmid said:

And sadly, little was done over the course of S3 to really help Sam cope when it came due. Instead, Sam held onto the hope that it could be undone, which turned out to be false, and the one person who could have told him anything decided to torture him in a time loop instead.

So much this. Some blame Sam for not living up to what Dean wanted him to be after he died and condemn him for dishonoring Dean's memory, but Sam was completely unprepared for how to deal with Dean actually ripped apart in front of him (for real this time), had been mentally tortured by Gabriel, so that he knew what Dean being dead was going to be like, and now he had no more delusions of a save. In my opinion, Sam was in no shape to just carry on.

Dean was a mess with Sam just dead, and in that state he made a deal with a demon to sell his soul to bring Sam back... but Sam, after all of that and knowing that his brother was now being tortured in hell on his (Sam's) behalf is supposed to just suck it up and go on and not make any rash decisions himself?

6 hours ago, ahrtee said:

OTOH, there's another thing to consider before anyone calls Dean selfish or cruel for not considering Sam's feelings before making the deal. Does anyone remember that Sam tried to trade himself for Dean? He even tried to open a Hellgate. The only reason he didn't succeed and wind up in hell himself was that no one would make a deal with him. So how do you think Dean would have felt if he found out that Sam had negated his sacrifice and wound up, not only dead but in hell, because of him? Dean was already reeling over his dad's sacrifice and feeling unworthy. Imagine what he would do if Sam were dead in his place?

Self-sacrifice, whether for guilt, selfish reasons or just because one couldn't live without the other is SOP for the Winchesters. You can't blame one without also blaming the others.

Who called Dean selfish or cruel for not considering what would happen to Sam when making his deal? I didn't. My point was just that Dean didn't consider the consequences when he made the deal, because he wasn't thinking at all. He was mainly going on blind gut instinct. My other point was that that didn't make it any easier on Sam, however, when he had to deal with the consequences or that Sam might not be a bit angry about it.

However I don't think Sam was selfish either when he tried to trade himself for Dean. Ironically, Sam was also drunk when he tried to do that, and as I mentioned above, if Dean was messed up and not thinking rationally just from Sam being dead, I can't imagine Sam was thinking any more rationally after seeing Dean ripped apart and knowing that he was being tortured in hell.

8 hours ago, Airmid said:

Having that kind of mindset doesn't make him a bad character or evil for that matter. The way it was handled was just terrible, however.

Agreed... and as I mentioned above, the show was willing to take that stance - that revenge wasn't necessarily bad - with Dean in season 7.

Though I can see where you're coming from, for me, I still think the need to show he wasn't just a monster was Sam's main motivation with the nurse. Then the blood pretty much ensured that the rage and revenge was going to come into play in finishing Lilith.

Katy M · August 26, 2018

9 hours ago, ahrtee said:

It wasn't his fault. It was Dean's decision, and no one forced him into it (grief notwithstanding) any more than Dean forced John to sell his soul.

Both boys take blame for things that aren't their faults, and (often) don't accept responsibility for the things that *are.*

But yes, there's more than enough stupid to go around.

I know it's not actually his fault, any more than Mary's death was his fault. But, from his perspective, he would think it's his fault.

ahrtee · August 26, 2018

3 hours ago, Katy M said:

I know it's not actually his fault, any more than Mary's death was his fault. But, from his perspective, he would think it's his fault.

And that's exactly my point, if you read the rest of my post: "Both boys take blame for things that aren't their faults, and (often) don't accept responsibility for the things that *are.* "

One of the things that has always annoyed me the most about Sam is that he's apologized over and over for things that were beyond his control like starting the apocalypse or losing his soul. But he's never (AFAIK) apologized for the *real* things that hurt Dean the most, which *were* his choice: choosing to drink demon blood. Ignoring Dean's and Bobby's warnings and going with Ruby behind his back. Not telling him he was back from hell for a solid year. Not looking for him in Purgatory. Using the Book of the Damned instead of burning it. And yes, I know he *sort of* apologized for some of those, but way too many of his so-called apologies it always turned into a justification (as in, I needed to feel important and you didn't do it for me) or something about himself (I haven't forgiven myself) which is more about his own feelings than acknowledging Dean's.

So even if we excuse the ones where either one of them did something stupid to save the other, knowingly or not--Dean's deal or using Gadreel to save Sam, Sam taking Dean to the faith healer, or using the Book of the Damned (I'll forgive that one if others will forgive Gadreel, because IMO they're pretty equal betrayals, because we know that *both* of them will go against the other's wishes to save each other), that still leaves too many where, instead of a sincere, "I'm sorry for betraying you" which could have then led to clearing the air of both guilt and resentment, we got at best "I'm beating myself up for it, but you forced me into it," which just reinforces both.

Airmid · August 26, 2018

5 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Not telling him he was back from hell for a solid year.

He was soulless. Bobby and Cas should both be apologizing their asses off for not telling Dean about Sam and letting Dean suffer from thinking his brother was in hell for that long. Sam at that time was not Sam. The part of him that could feel remorse and any kind of responsibility/care to anyone other than himself - his soul - was busy being tortured in hell.

Weirdly, in Sacrifice, when Dean's listing all the things Sam should be sorry for, he includes Sam 'losing his soul'. I'm not sure what the writer was going for there - if Dean really did somehow blame Sam for what Cas did, or if he couldn't bear to blame Cas so he blamed Sam instead due to his already long list of sins.

I do agree however that a lot of times when Sam's apologizing that he does turn into something else. I know part of it is his personality, especially since as Dean has said, Sam's a lot like John. But it would be nice if it wasn't so often, especially at big scenes, like the above-mentioned Sacrifice where Sam starts talking about Dean replacing him. Wonder why, Sam? I mean, that whole season had you written so supporting and stellar... /s

ahrtee · August 26, 2018

5 minutes ago, Airmid said:

He was soulless. Bobby and Cas should both be apologizing their asses off for not telling Dean about Sam and letting Dean suffer from thinking his brother was in hell for that long. Sam at that time was not Sam. The part of him that could feel remorse and any kind of responsibility/care to anyone other than himself - his soul - was busy being tortured in hell.

Weirdly, in Sacrifice, when Dean's listing all the things Sam should be sorry for, he includes Sam 'losing his soul'. I'm not sure what the writer was going for there - if Dean really did somehow blame Sam for what Cas did, or if he couldn't bear to blame Cas so he blamed Sam instead due to his already long list of sins.

I actually never blamed Sam for anything he did while soulless, and was also taken aback when the writers had Dean "blame" him in Sacrifice (except maybe that he was on a roll of betrayal and that still stuck in his mind, even if logically he knew it wasn't Sam's fault). But I did snap at the screen "that wasn't a choice, you idiot!" when he said that.

And yes, I blame Bobby for telling Sam *not* to tell Dean he was back, because honestly? He couldn't have come up with a crueler punishment for Dean than thinking his brother was in hell, especially since Dean is the one person (that we know of) who would know *exactly* what that means. But not feeling remorse/responsibility doesn't mean that Sam couldn't have shown up at Dean's sooner (if, say, Grandpa Campbell had said, "hey, we need some more people for this hunt. How about your brother?") After all, he wouldn't care about going against Bobby's wishes any more than anyone else's. :)

Casseiopeia · August 26, 2018

6 minutes ago, Airmid said:

Sacrifice where Sam starts talking about Dean replacing him. Wonder why, Sam? I mean, that whole season had you written so supporting and stellar... /s

This is my very unpopular opinion but in Sacrifice the reason Sam was talking about Dean turning to an angel or a vampire wasn't finding fault in Dean. He was talking about himself. He was the one that had proven over and over that he is the one that Dean couldn't trust or turn to when he really needed someone. He was trying once again to make up for that by sacrificing his life in order to make a better world for Dean.

"Don't you DARE think that there is anyone I would put in front of you" Dean's plea to Sam that he loved him above all others. Sam knows that. He knows that Dean loves him. What Sam was trying to tell Dean was "how many times I let you down". Sam knows he screwed up again. Dean can't trust him again. That is what Sam wants more than anything. Dean told Sam at the hospital after he ran off with Ruby "We can be what we used to be, I just don't think I can trust you". It didn't mean that Dean didn't love Sam he just couldn't trust him. For Sam the fact that Dean told him twice (once while possessed and once when he wasn't) that Benny is the better brother, Benny has never let him down meant that once again he made the wrong choice (assuming his brother was at peace in heaven) and once again he let his brother down. Sam wants to be that brother that never lets his brother down but the writers just won't let him.

Airmid · August 26, 2018

8 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I actually never blamed Sam for anything he did while soulless, and was also taken aback when the writers had Dean "blame" him in Sacrifice (except maybe that he was on a roll of betrayal and that still stuck in his mind, even if logically he knew it wasn't Sam's fault). But I did snap at the screen "that wasn't a choice, you idiot!" when he said that.

1

At the time, I had the belief that the writers were determined with every episode to make me feel like I had to reach through the screen and punch something during S8. I can see him being on a betrayal roll though, and sadly, Sam hasn't helped himself out in shortening that list.

11 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

And yes, I blame Bobby for telling Sam *not* to tell Dean he was back, because honestly? He couldn't have come up with a crueler punishment for Dean than thinking his brother was in hell, especially since Dean is the one person (that we know of) who would know *exactly* what that means.

I was so pissed that Bobby knew and said nothing. It would be one thing if Sam just wandered off and told no one outside of the Campbells. Then both Dean and Bobby would be on the same page. But to include Bobby, and then Bobby trying to justify it was awful. Yes, Dean would have immediately started hunting his brother to confirm he was alive and in one piece, but it would have made Bobby look like less of a jackass. Probably would have been better to leave Bobby just as much in the dark and not have him spout crap about Dean 'getting out of the life'.

13 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

But not feeling remorse/responsibility doesn't mean that Sam couldn't have shown up at Dean's sooner (if, say, Grandpa Campbell had said, "hey, we need some more people for this hunt. How about your brother?") After all, he wouldn't care about going against Bobby's wishes any more than anyone else's. :)

1

It's been a while since I've seen Exile on Maine St. but didn't Sam at the time consider Dean weak and domesticated? That he was off his game and soft? I thought he did, but I may be wrong on that front. If that was the case though, it may be part of the reason why he never bothered to go get Dean. There could have been other reasons for Sambot, like thinking Dean would cramp his style, or get in his way on his no morals hunting spree he was on. Oh, and probably objecting to capturing Alpha's for Crowley. Just my thoughts but eh, maybe one of the reasons on that.

11 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

This is my very unpopular opinion but in Sacrifice the reason Sam was talking about Dean turning to an angel or a vampire wasn't finding fault in Dean. He was talking about himself. He was the one that had proven over and over that he is the one that Dean couldn't trust or turn to when he really needed someone. He was trying once again to make up for that by sacrificing his life in order to make a better world for Dean.

1

This is something I've seen brought up before, and I can definitely see this being a thing for Sam. Especially since I think he does have issues at times believing that he's not good enough at or that he burdens Dean. I wish, however, the writing in that scene had gone more of that direction because it does come off like more of a whine than Sam stating that he feels he's such a fuck up that Dean is forced to find better replacements.

YMMV - but while I like the idea of Sam wanting to give Dean everything, including a demon-free world, no matter the cost to himself, to me, that scene just didn't fully bring that for me personally.

Not that it's helped much by S9 opening with Sam still dying. So, stopping the trials was a moot point, outside of Dean having sort-of alive Sam to work with, instead of an all the way dead one.

gonzosgirrl · August 26, 2018

But being soulless doesn't mean you aren't in control of the things you do and say, it just means you don't care about the consequences. IMO, if you don't have murder in your heart, you aren't going to do it just because you can. So while not having a soul was out of Sam's control, totally not his fault, I don't give him a carte-blanche pass for the things he said and did whilst soulless. There are a lot of things he could and should have apologized for. Not telling Dean he was alive is #1 on the list.

I know the same could be said about Demon!Dean to an extent. But I give having a twisted, demonized 'soul' more leeway (as to not being in control) than the absence of any soul at all.

Edited August 26, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

ahrtee · August 26, 2018

2 minutes ago, Airmid said:

It's been a while since I've seen Exile on Maine St. but didn't Sam at the time consider Dean weak and domesticated? That he was off his game and soft? I thought he did, but I may be wrong on that front. If that was the case though, it may be part of the reason why he never bothered to go get Dean. There could have been other reasons for Sambot, like thinking Dean would cramp his style, or get in his way on his no morals hunting spree he was on. Oh, and probably objecting to capturing Alpha's for Crowley. Just my thoughts but eh, maybe one of the reasons on that.

Yes, but that was after a year of being domesticated. Sam was back within days, So unless he was acting on the old "Dean has always been weak and I'm a better hunter than Dean so who needs him?" he had no reason *not* to contact Dean until Bobby asked him not to; which begs the question: why did he go to Bobby before Dean?

ILoveReading · August 26, 2018

45 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

This is my very unpopular opinion but in Sacrifice the reason Sam was talking about Dean turning to an angel or a vampire wasn't finding fault in Dean. He was talking about himself. He was the one that had proven over and over that he is the one that Dean couldn't trust or turn to when he really needed someone. He was trying once again to make up for that by sacrificing his life in order to make a better world for Dean.

This may have been the writers intentions but that isn't the way it came across.

Sam might have said his greatest sin was letting Dean down but that was immediately followed "What happens the next time you decide not to trust me. Who are you going to turn to, another angel, another vampire?"

The pronouns put the burden of trusting Sam on Dean. Even though it was Sam's actions that caused Dean to lose trust. I'm not getting into it but will quickly say this was the big problem with Sam's so called apology in Fallen Idols. Sam can say its his fault all he wants, but when he follows it up with "I went to her to get away from you. Ruby didn't make me feel like your little brother." Ruby pulled Sam's strings more effectively than a marionette controls a puppet and the shows refusal to bring this up or all Dean to bring it just reinforces this. So she didn't treat him like Sam was implying Dean did. Then the icing on the cake, Sam lists all the ways Dean needs to change his behavior but says nothing about his own. Add this all up and that scene very much comes across as 'its only my fault because you made me do it in the first place." Dean apologizing for not trusting Sam reinforces this.

In Citizen Fang, Dean never actually says the words, "you did" when he says "Benny never let me down," But the implication is there loud and clear. This is the way I felt watching both Sacrifice and Fallen Idols.

A far more effective way of wording this would have been "What happens the next time I give you reason not to trust me. I forced you to rely on an angel and a vampire instead of your own brother." The way it was worded came across exactly like Fallen Idols. "I let you down, mostly because you let me down."

This is my problem with Sam since s5 and why none of his redemption arcs work for me. Sam's mistakes, screw ups and flaws are presented as the other people not accepting Sam's actions, not the actions themselves.

As for Sam not telling Dean he was back, I remember when we first go the spoilers that Sam wasn't going to tell Dean he was back. All indications were that Sam was just Sam only with PTSD. The majority of Sam fans praised Sam for this, and called him selfless and scarficing his happiness so Dean could have his, and noble. One person even called Sam a martyr. So this is why I tend to see this as something Sam would do because his biggest fans seemed to think its very in character.

Like, @gonzosgirrl said, I don't give Sam a free pass because almost everything Souless Sam did, I can name the equivalent that real Sam did. After s8, not telling Dean he was back is something I can see real Sam doing. Real Sam participated in human sacrifice. He can use people to get what he wants, (Jack).

As for no one telling Dean Sam was back, thats also part of a bigger problem. One thing the show likes to reinforce is that Dean doesn't respect other people boundaries. I agree with this, but other people are given a free pass when they make decisions for Dean.

Edited August 26, 2018 by ILoveReading

gonzosgirrl · August 26, 2018

17 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

As for Sam not telling Dean he was back, I remember when we first go the spoilers that Sam wasn't going to tell Dean he was back. All indications were that Sam was just Sam only with PTSD. The majority of Sam fans praised Sam for this, and called him selfless and scarficing his happiness so Dean could have his, and noble.

See, I don't get this at all. The picket-fence life was Sam's dream, not Dean's. Dean agreed to try in honour of Sam's ersatz dying wish - a promise Sam elicited despite Dean pretty much begging him not to ask it of him. So nope, nothing noble or self-sacrificing whatsoever in Sam letting Dean believe his brother was suffering in Hell. I remember thinking at the time that it was telling that we never actually got to see/hear Dean make that promise - we only saw him show up a Lisa's door afterward. Because we all knew that Dean would never just let that go and never look back. Don't even get me started on Bobby's silence.

Edited August 26, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

Katy M · August 26, 2018

6 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

See, I don't get this at all. The picket-fence life was Sam's dream, not Dean's. Dean agreed to try in honour of Sam's ersatz dying wish - a promise Sam elicited despite Dean pretty much begging him not to ask it of him. So nope, nothing noble or self-sacrificing whatsoever in Sam letting Dean believe his brother was suffering in Hell. I remember thinking at the time that it was telling that we never actually got to see/hear Dean make that promise - we only saw him show up a Lisa's door afterward. Because we all knew that Dean would never just let that go and never look back. Don't even get me started on Bobby's silence.

Well, obviously we know it wasn't self-sacrificing. However, Dean's last act before going to say yes to Michael was to go to see Lisa and tell her how much he pictured a perfect life with her and Ben. In Swap Meat, he was talking about maybe having a picket fence life. In Dream a Little Dream of Me, he was dreaming of having a picnic with Lisa and later picking up Ben at baseball. Dean may have buried it, but there was reason for Sam believing it was what he wanted.

catrox14 · August 26, 2018

9 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

- for Sam, once Dean was dead and Sam knew he was in hell suffering because of Sam and after all that Sam had gone through with Gabriel's messing with him, to maybe feel a little angry with Dean for making the deal to begin with.

The thing is that we have no idea that Dean ever learned what The Trickster did to Sam. Assuming he didn't because it doesn't appear that Sam ever told him, Dean wouldn't have known about that.

And even if he did, there is no guarantee that Sam would react the same way again.

9 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

because he didn't really know why Dean did it and also felt guilty for feeling angry (much like Dean had). And for me that would've been much better as a motivation for

He did know why Dean did it. It was to save his life. Dean told him that at the end of 2.22. He told him he had to protect his little brother. Sam's guilt is different than Dean's because Dean SHOULD HAVE been dead in Faith. He said back then he didn't feel it was right for him to be alive. So Dean saying his life would have meaning was more than just drunk despairing, grief stricken Dean. It was Dean for sometime thinking he should have been dead.

So maybe if Sam has any reason to feel guilt it's for not letting Dean die in s1. So I really don't see these as being the same guilt at all.

ahrtee · August 26, 2018

11 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

See, I don't get this at all. The picket-fence life was Sam's dream, not Dean's. Dean agreed to try in honour of Sam's ersatz dying wish - a promise Sam elicited despite Dean pretty much begging him not to ask it of him.

3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Well, obviously we know it wasn't self-sacrificing. However, Dean's last act before going to say yes to Michael was to go to see Lisa and tell her how much he pictured a perfect life with her and Ben. In Swap Meat, he was talking about maybe having a picket fence life. In Dream a Little Dream of Me, he was dreaming of having a picnic with Lisa and later picking up Ben at baseball. Dean may have buried it, but there was reason for Sam believing it was what he wanted.

Those were Dean's fantasies, but he knew they'd never come true, because he knew he really wasn't that kind of man (and also he knew that the monsters would always find him.) He may have wished for it, but more like people fantasize about winning the lottery or marrying a supermodel.

What I thought very funny (and sad) was that both boys, in their "dying wishes," asked the other to do what *they* would have wanted, not what the other one did--so Dean, in NRFTW, told Sam to keep fighting. Sam told Dean to quit and settle down. And they both did as asked, and were both miserable.

gonzosgirrl · August 26, 2018

8 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Well, obviously we know it wasn't self-sacrificing. However, Dean's last act before going to say yes to Michael was to go to see Lisa and tell her how much he pictured a perfect life with her and Ben. In Swap Meat, he was talking about maybe having a picket fence life. In Dream a Little Dream of Me, he was dreaming of having a picnic with Lisa and later picking up Ben at baseball. Dean may have buried it, but there was reason for Sam believing it was what he wanted.

But in none of those scenarios was Sam being dead, never mind being in Hell, part of the equation. No one will convince me that anyone who knows Dean, especially Sam, would believe him better off not knowing Sam was alive and (ostensibly) well.

Edited August 26, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

catrox14 · August 26, 2018

16 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

See, I don't get this at all. The picket-fence life was Sam's dream, not Dean's. Dean agreed to try in honour of Sam's ersatz dying wish - a promise Sam elicited despite Dean pretty much begging him not to ask it of him. So nope, nothing noble or self-sacrificing whatsoever in Sam letting Dean believe his brother was suffering in Hell. I remember thinking at the time that it was telling that we never actually got to see/hear Dean make that promise - we only saw him show up a Lisa's door afterward. Because we all knew that Dean would never just let that go and never look back. Don't even get me started on Bobby's silence.

Word. to all of this.

gonzosgirrl · August 26, 2018

1 minute ago, ahrtee said:

What I thought very funny (and sad) was that both boys, in their "dying wishes," asked the other to do what *they* would have wanted, not what the other one did--so Dean, in NRFTW, told Sam to keep fighting. Sam told Dean to quit and settle down. And they both did as asked, and were both miserable.

I love this.

catrox14 · August 26, 2018

9 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Well, obviously we know it wasn't self-sacrificing. However, Dean's last act before going to say yes to Michael was to go to see Lisa and tell her how much he pictured a perfect life with her and Ben. In Swap Meat, he was talking about maybe having a picket fence life. In Dream a Little Dream of Me, he was dreaming of having a picnic with Lisa and later picking up Ben at baseball. Dean may have buried it, but there was reason for Sam believing it was what he wanted.

That's not what he said. He said,

"Look, I have no illusions, okay? I know the life that I live, I know how that’s gonna end for me. Whatever. I’m okay with that. But I wanted you to know…that when I do picture myself happy…it’s with you. And the kid.".

He didn't put any kind of degree on it. I'm not intending to split hairs here either. It's important because there is a big difference between thinking something might make you happy and really wanting that SO MUCH over anything else.

Just because Sam saw something in Dean's dreamscape that doesn't mean Sam was right or knew better than Dean. Dean wanted to hunt God and save Sam but he honored Sam's dying wish, and Sam did not honor Dean's dying wish to not use his powers and keep hunting. For me, that is the difference between Dean and Sam's guilt.

9 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

What I thought very funny (and sad) was that both boys, in their "dying wishes," asked the other to do what *they* would have wanted, not what the other one did--so Dean, in NRFTW, told Sam to keep fighting. Sam told Dean to quit and settle down. And they both did as asked, and were both miserable.

I kind of don't agree with this WRT to Sam.

Even when Sam is supposedly honoring Dean's wishes, he does it in the way he wants and that tends to end up not being what Dean wanted. Dean wanted Sam to keep fighting and keep hunting. I would argue that Sam did neither. Not really. He hooked up with Ruby and was only focused on killing Lilith and that was before he ever knew about all the seals and the plan to raise Lucifer. I might be misremembering but I don't think the 4 months Dean was gone that Sam actually hunted in order to save people. So he wasn't really doing what Dean wanted. Nor did he stop doing his psychic stuff.

Dean directly honored Sam's wishes whether it was what Dean really wanted or not.

catrox14 · August 26, 2018

10 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

so that he knew what Dean being dead was going to be like, and now he had no more delusions of a save. In my opinion, Sam was in no shape to just carry on.

This implies that Sam didn't have a choice to do something other than what he experienced. He had a chance at a do over basically. He had the chance to make other choices. It is interesting that his future after Dean died the "final" time, that he became an obsessed robo hunter seeking The Trickster and hunted in between...Just like John with Azazel. Yet when Dean did go to Hell, he became obsessed with killing Lilith but I don't think he hunted in between. But I could be not recollecting something also.

But your comment does raise a thought for me about Sam. That maybe he really in his core, thinks his fate and destiny are sealed. And he is only going through the motions of thinking he won't end up darkside. If the show decides to ever tell me this about him, beyond, "I'm cursed. I'm awful because I'm cursed". And shows me that his destiny is really to turn dark side, I would actually find Sam a lot more intriguing. But maybe that's what Dabb has been trying to do with Sam relating to Jack.

That Sam, once more, is seeing himself in Jack and thinks he can save Jack because Sam's doomed. But they never have really said that overtly. I would be invested more if that was where I believed it was in Sam's core.

AwesomO4000 · August 26, 2018

3 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Yes, but that was after a year of being domesticated. Sam was back within days, So unless he was acting on the old "Dean has always been weak and I'm a better hunter than Dean so who needs him?" he had no reason *not* to contact Dean until Bobby asked him not to; which begs the question: why did he go to Bobby before Dean?

I think Soulless Sam knew fairly early on that there was something "wrong" with himself, but didn't want anyone to look too closely into that. He went to Bobby as a contact, because he thought he could snow Bobby - and apparently he was right about that*** - but he didn't think he could fool Dean. From what his memories of his life pre-soulless told him, Dean was smart enough and knew enough about Sam's behavior to realize that this new version of himself would be "off" and would likely do something to find out what, and Soulless Sam didn't want that. As @Airmid said, it would've "[gotten] in the way of the no morals hunting spree he was on," because yeah, Soulless Sam knew Dean would likely want to hunt with him again, but that Dean would object to incidences like "civilian being used as a shield by the monster? I'll just shoot right through her!" Soulless Sam had Sam's memories and knew for sure Dean would object to - and immediately know something was rotten in Denmark - with that one. He also knew that if Dean even knew he was around, he would look for him and eventually find out about the things he had been doing.

*** Which for me is one of the reasons I that find suggestions that Bobby actually admires Sam's abilities more than Dean's to be a moot argument. Saying that a soulless, sociopathic version of someone is a better hunter, in my opinion, is not a compliment to that person.

13 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

As for Sam not telling Dean he was back, I remember when we first go the spoilers that Sam wasn't going to tell Dean he was back. All indications were that Sam was just Sam only with PTSD. The majority of Sam fans praised Sam for this, and called him selfless and scarficing his happiness so Dean could have his, and noble. One person even called Sam a martyr. So this is why I tend to see this as something Sam would do because his biggest fans seemed to think its very in character.

I never saw anything like that among any of the Sam fans on the boards that I was on, so I'll have to take your word for it, but this Sam fan thinks all that crap is nonsense. There was nothing about Sam's expression when he looked in on the scene with Dean that said to me "this is real Sam." I knew from day one - meaning the end of season 5 - that something was wrong and that it was way more than PTSD.

49 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But being soulless doesn't mean you aren't in control of the things you do and say, it just means you don't care about the consequences. IMO, if you don't have murder in your heart, you aren't going to do it just because you can. So while not having a soul was out of Sam's control, totally not his fault, I don't give him a carte-blanche pass for the things he said and did whilst soulless.

I know the same could be said about Demon!Dean to an extent. But I give having a twisted, demonized 'soul' more leeway (as to not being in control) than the absence of a soul at all.

Why not? The thing that makes you you isn't there. If your soul makes you care about someone, but now you don't have it so you don't care, why would that stop you from killing someone because say, you were curious as to what would happen, or it might benefit you some other way? The point - and it's important one - is that you don't care about that person - or any people. If caring is an important part of your being and now it's gone, and other things replace it, is it really you anymore?

Is Dean anymore not him because his soul is twisted? Would "twisted caring" be any worse than not caring at all? Truthfully when I saw demon Dean at the end of season 9, I could imagine that demon Dean could care for Sam - Ruby and Meg both did say that demons could love in a way - but just a twisted sort of love. Like demon Dean would think keeping Sam locked up and safe was the best way to go... maybe a Misery type situation to some extent. I could have imagined that just as well as imagining Dean wanting to kill Sam if Sam persisted in finding him... sort of "oh you want to be with me? Fine, let's do it, but we'll do it on my terms."

This is why I don't hold either responsible.

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

The thing is that we have no idea that Dean ever learned what The Trickster did to Sam. Assuming he didn't because it doesn't appear that Sam ever told him, Dean wouldn't have known about that.

And even if he did, there is no guarantee that Sam would react the same way again.

No, Dean didn't know... I'm saying that Sam did. I was saying that after all that Sam went through, including Sam having to go through the Trickster's torture, I could definitely see Sam thinking "Why did Dean have to leave me in this situation? I could be dead, maybe in heaven (Sam believed in heaven even before he had proof), but instead I'm here, miserable, and feeling guilty because I know my brother's in hell so that I can be here and he wants me to carry on, but I just. Can't. Deal." And then when Dean comes back and Sam ultimately finds out that Dean does remember hell and how awful it was, then Sam would feel guilty all over again because "damn, how crappy am I for being mad at Dean, after all he's been through." That scenario would've made much more sense - to me - than the "well, first I understood that your breaking wasn't your fault, because who wouldn't break after 30 years of torture, but now I'm entirely reversing that previously sincere-seeming sentiment and think you're weak for breaking, because of... reasons." That was the point I was trying to - and apparently failing - to make. Nothing more, nothing less.

32 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

He did know why Dean did it. It was to save his life. Dean told him that at the end of 2.22. He told him he had to protect his little brother. Sam's guilt is different than Dean's because Dean SHOULD HAVE been dead in Faith. He said back then he didn't feel it was right for him to be alive. So Dean saying his life would have meaning was more than just drunk despairing, grief stricken Dean. It was Dean for sometime thinking he should have been dead.

So maybe if Sam has any reason to feel guilt it's for not letting Dean die in s1. So I really don't see these as being the same guilt at all.

Except Sam knew nothing about what Dean said to dead him or Bobby. He knew Dean wanted to save his life... but not WHY Dean wanted to save his life. And the why is very important in my opinion, because the why could be what Dean inferred with (paraphrase) "I figure I was entitled to it, because of all the sacrifices I've made for this family." Or it could be the real reason - which Sam didn't know.

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Yet when Dean did go to Hell, he became obsessed with killing Lilith but I don't think he hunted in between. But I could be not recollecting something also.

Sam's exorcising demons from people was something that Sam did to save them. That didn't help him in getting closer to Lilith. It was something Sam did because it was saving people, and he saw it that way, too, because one of the things he told Dean was that by using his power-driven exorcism, he had saved more people than they ever had before, and he had been very passionate about that. Sure, it was partly deluding himself to justify the powers, but he also really did think he was "saving people, hunting things," even if they were mainly demon things that he was hunting. It was also a fact that demons were now much more common in the world he currently lived in. Since that was where Sam saw he could do the most good - in addition to hunting Lilith - that's what he focused on. The reason Sam ended up in Pontiac was because he was following leads on demons.

24 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Even when Sam is supposedly honoring Dean's wishes, he does it in the way he wants and that tends to end up not being what Dean wanted. Dean wanted Sam to keep fighting and keep hunting. I would argue that Sam did neither. Not really. He hooked up with Ruby and was only focused on killing Lilith and that was before he ever knew about all the seals and the plan to raise Lucifer. I might be misremembering but I don't think the 4 months Dean was gone that Sam actually hunted in order to save people. So he wasn't really doing what Dean wanted. Nor did he stop doing his psychic stuff.

Dean directly honored Sam's wishes whether it was what Dean really wanted or not.

One of the reasons Sam used his "psychic stuff" was to save people. No, Sam didn't continue just hunting regular things, but demons were now a lot more common, so hunting them was legitimate in my opinion. Also technically one of the things Dean told Sam was "remember what Dad taught you." Though yeah, not what he meant, going on a revenge binge was pretty much one of the things John taught them, and considering that Sam and John shared that trait, it's not really all that surprising, in my opinion, that Sam would go there - again - once Dean was dead.

And in my opinion Dean also fudged on honoring Sam's wishes when he looked into trying to get Sam out of the cage. I'm not saying that Dean shouldn't have done it or that it wasn't inevitable, but technically it wasn't honoring Sam's wishes.

21 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

This implies that Sam didn't have a choice to do something other than what he experienced. He had a chance at a do over basically. He had the chance to make other choices.

So Dean is excused from making his bad choice in making the deal after Sam died, because he (understandably) wasn't thinking rationally, but Sam is expected to make rational choices after watching Dean ripped apart in front of him, knowing that Dean was being tortured in hell so that Sam could be alive, and after having gone through The Trickster's torture, so that he knew how awful it was going to be, except that this time, he didn't even have a hope of finding the Trickster to reverse it? Sam is just supposed to live with all that and suck it up and just continue on with no psychological effects or thinking "well, the demon who caused all of this is still walking around breathing, but I can just forget all of that - and the fact that she caused my brother to be tortured eternally in hell - because my brother asked me to? If something did that to Sam, and it was still "breathing," am I supposed to expect that Dean is just going to let that thing live and roam the earth planning who knows what? I'm thinking Dean is going to want to make that son of a bitch pay.

One of the differences between the scenarios - and it's a big one - is that Lucifer wasn't walking the earth after Sam ended up in hell. As far as Dean knew, the apocalypse was ended, and the threat was over - he had no idea what was happening on Castiel's end, because Castiel didn't tell him. In Sam's scenario, Lilith was still around and potentially a threat. They didn't know about the seals or any of that, but it was possible that Lilith wasn't just there for shits and giggles. The increasing number of demons - and Ruby's (biases) information all pointed to Lilith being up to something big and so there was potentially some sort of crisis to be averted.

Bottom line, I either don't blame either's bad decision or I blame them both for making bad decisions. I pretty much see the circumstances as understandable as to why both weren't thinking clearly, but blame them both for making the crappy decisions they made.

AwesomO4000 · August 26, 2018

52 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

But your comment does raise a thought for me about Sam. That maybe he really in his core, thinks his fate and destiny are sealed. And he is only going through the motions of thinking he won't end up darkside. If the show decides to ever tell me this about him, beyond, "I'm cursed. I'm awful because I'm cursed". And shows me that his destiny is really to turn dark side, I would actually find Sam a lot more intriguing. But maybe that's what Dabb has been trying to do with Sam relating to Jack.

That Sam, once more, is seeing himself in Jack and thinks he can save Jack because Sam's doomed. But they never have really said that overtly. I would be invested more if that was where I believed it was in Sam's core.

I actually do think the show has given small clues to this kind of thinking. Gabriel, for example, points to how it was always supposed to be that way. That Sam was "born for this." Lucifer tells Sam that he can see into him, and no matter how Sam objects, he was going to give in, because it was his fate to do so. Sam disagrees, but in my opinion, it also looks like he was more disturbed than he should be if he actually believed 100% in his own objections.

And sadly, in season 9, that one of Sam's first thoughts when he's losing time, is that maybe he's going "bad" again - despite his previously trying to tell himself that being in hell, and then the trials were purifying him (theoretically there shouldn't be any more demon blood influence in him) - tells me that Sam fears that he is somehow inherently "bad" and destined to go "bad" and is constantly trying to fight against that and prove that he isn't. Which sadly often leads as much to bad as good, but yet Sam still feels compelled to do so.

Edited August 26, 2018 by AwesomO4000

ahrtee · August 26, 2018

18 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Soulless Sam had Sam's memories and knew for sure Dean would object to - and immediately know something was rotten in Denmark - with that one. He also knew that if Dean even knew he was around, he would look for him and eventually find out about the things he had been doing.

But that loops back to the original idea: that SS *didn't care* about other's opinions or judgments. You're saying that he'd care so much that Dean was angry/disappointed with him that he decided not to contact him at all? So does that mean that he thought that Bobby wouldn't care? Or that he didn't care if Bobby was angry?

We can't have it both ways. Either he cared about his family's opinions enough to stay away, or he didn't care about anything, at which point, why go to either of them at all?

Airmid · August 26, 2018

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But being soulless doesn't mean you aren't in control of the things you do and say, it just means you don't care about the consequences. IMO, if you don't have murder in your heart, you aren't going to do it just because you can. So while not having a soul was out of Sam's control, totally not his fault, I don't give him a carte-blanche pass for the things he said and did whilst soulless. There are a lot of things he could and should have apologized for. Not telling Dean he was alive is #1 on the list.

I know the same could be said about Demon!Dean to an extent. But I give having a twisted, demonized 'soul' more leeway (as to not being in control) than the absence of any soul at all.

Sam didn't even remember what his soulless self did. A little leaked through, but for the most part, he had no idea. And the small portions he did get he was horrified over, up until Cas broke his wall and he got everything back. And he was trying to figure out how to make up for the little bit he got, including an ill-advised hunt, until everything came crashing in and he went to crazy town. Would apologies still be demanded of him if he didn't remember for the rest of his life or couldn't make it back to sanity after Cas broke his wall? Where's the line on the feeling sorry for one's actions even if they don't know what happened, here?

I think Sambot cared about certain consequences, i.e. the ones that inconvenienced him. He just didn't have the capacity to care about other people, because what makes a person arguably human is missing - the soul. He was a robot without the understanding of how human emotions worked at all and the inability to feel empathy. He didn't act like Sam, not really. Dean picked up on it right away, the Campbells didn't know him before this but even Grandpa Shady said Sam was off. Bobby lived in his own little world called denial and it could be argued that he may not have wanted to see what was wrong because it meant something bad had happened to Sam on top of falling into hell.

Sambot looked like Sam, had his memories but wasn't Sam. He didn't feel attachments, loyalty, or devotion. He did not care one jot for anyone not named Sam Winchester. He was incapable of it.

Soullessness has been really muddled and confused in the past few seasons, but as it was presented in S6, Sambot was not the Sam we knew. Now, whether or not Sambot at this point had a right to exist and not have a brutally tortured soul shoved into his body is a weird but intriguing ethical question given the situation. But no, Sam's soul, the part capable of apologizing and actually meaning it, does not need to because it was not present or consenting to any of these actions. To me, demanding Sam apologize for what his body ran around and did (regardless of how he behaved in later seasons), is like demanding an apology from a new mechanic because your car has engine trouble. Neither Sambot or the car understand, and neither the mechanic or Sam's soul are responsible for the problems before this point.

Demons OTOH have souls, they're just twisted to the point where they have no humanity. But they do and can express some things that soulless Sam didn't seem to be able to, like twisted forms of loyalty and love. Things Sambot failed to even be able to really mimic correctly for the long term.

Airmid · August 26, 2018

15 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

But that loops back to the original idea: that SS *didn't care* about other's opinions or judgments. You're saying that he'd care so much that Dean was angry/disappointed with him that he decided not to contact him at all? So does that mean that he thought that Bobby wouldn't care? Or that he didn't care if Bobby was angry?

We can't have it both ways. Either he cared about his family's opinions enough to stay away, or he didn't care about anything, at which point, why go to either of them at all?

I wouldn't say he cared. I would think Sambot there would like to not be nagged or undermined by Dean who still had a moral compass. I mean, if you're going to rob a bank, you don't bring a cop with you that has the training to stop you mid-robbery.

Unfortunately, the show never really told us what Sam was thinking when he just wandered off after being brought back - we only got Cas' view. For all we know, it could have been: "Hey, Dean's fine. Meh, don't really care either way." And then he wandered off to go find a hooker.

The real interesting question, that I can't remember if it was ever answered, is how did he get involved with the Campbells? And how did he know Cas was alive?

I do kind of have the tinfoil hat theory that Cas originally, when he could not save Sam, brought his body back and knowingly reanimated it for other purposes. Seeing that everyone, including the fairies, knew he didn't have a soul, but Cas was all like 'I dunno what's wrong with him', its kind of suspicious.

Katy M · August 26, 2018

23 minutes ago, Airmid said:

The real interesting question, that I can't remember if it was ever answered, is how did he get involved with the Campbells? And how did he know Cas was alive?

It was not answered. Sam said he woke up in that field. He didn't say Samuel was right next to him. We do know Crowley wanted them together, and Samuel knew that it was Crowley who brought him up and that he was working for him to bring Mary back. So, my best guess is that Crowley helped Samuel find Sam. But, I would be interested in seeing their (Samuel and Sam's) initial conversation. I'm not even sure how Samuel found Christian, Gwen, Marc, and they myriad of other Campbell's. None of these people were born when he died. More help from Crowley, or did he go looking the last place he knew siblings and cousins were?

Bobby may have told him Cas was alive. We know that he went to see Bobby at some point because Bobby knew he was alive. So, I don't find that to be too much of a mystery. Although, we now have to wonder how he knew to look for Bobby since he was also dead before Sam went in the hole.

Airmid · August 26, 2018

@Katy M Interesting point about Bobby. Luci was enough of a dick to keep Sam awake and watching (which led to his downfall) so Sam would have known about Bobby's death, and probably would have seen the body in his frantic bid for control, also.

When Dean came back in S4, it made sense that he would have some hope that his family maybe survived. He didn't have proof otherwise, so calling Bobby and/or Sam right off the bat made sense. But for Sam, he watched everyone die except Dean. Does he just call dead people to see if they're still dead?

Though I guess in this universe that might be something everyone should start doing at this point.

Katy M · August 26, 2018

10 minutes ago, Airmid said:

Does he just call dead people to see if they're still dead?

Man, they totally have to make this a line on the show. Depending on how they end it, maybe the last line.

Let's call Dad.

He's dead.

We should call to check to see if he still is. You know how many people have come back in the last 15 years.

But, back to Bobby, it's possible he randomly bumped into him on a hunt. We know they were both hunting, and we've see the Winchesters randomly bump into others hunters that they know or not on hunts. Or, we also know that while he was soulless, he ran into Annie at some point. Maybe that was early on and she told him. Or, maybe he just went to see if his library was still there. No reason to think that soullessness affected Sam's penchant for research.

Airmid · August 26, 2018

@Katy M Didn't Bobby say that he knew for the whole year?

From the Exile on Main St.:

Sam: Hey, Bobby.

Bobby: Sam.

Dean: You knew? You knew Sam was alive.

Bobby: Yeah.

Dean: How long?

Bobby: Look --

Dean: How long?!

Bobby: All year.

And then they try to justify it by saying Dean was out and happy. It sounds like Sam saw him and reported it back to Bobby fairly quickly at the start. Wonder if Bobby checked up on Dean without saying anything. We know Cas was stalking him in his own yard. Poor Dean, all these people who supposedly care about him and to him, it looks like they all deserted him.

What a terrible family, which is bad given that this show is focused on family.

It would have been nice if the show filled in the blanks on Sam's missing year. We know that Dean was researching ways to get him out, drinking too much, and it's hinted that he did have some very, very rough patches in there. Sam's like this big question mark on how he got together with all these people, or how all these people decided to work for Crowley (as Cas was in the shadows) or that doing so was a good idea. I mean they risked their lives to get the Alphas. Grandpa Shady had a deal to get Mary back. Not sure on why the rest were such eager beavers or that no one raised an eyebrow as to why this was probably bad. It really stains Mary's family as given that they just went all in for the King of Hell.

Though I haven't watched S6 recently, and I am pretty foggy on the cold medicine, so I might be off on some points here.

gonzosgirrl · August 26, 2018

I guess it's too bad that they undermined, if not completely negated any defense of Sam not being responsible for his soulless self, right down to the 'I don't remember so how can I be sorry?' part, first in the Amara/Lizzie Borden ep, and then most egregiously with the return of Donatello, for whom losing his soul was a minor inconvenience he only had to choose to overcome.

Katy M · August 27, 2018

2 hours ago, Airmid said:

@Katy M Didn't Bobby say that he knew for the whole year?

Yes. But, that doesn't preclude any of my possibilities. I don't think the whole year has to mean that Sam went to him that day. Any time within a month would be close enough for "casual" conversation. He wasn't on the stand with lawyers demanding a super-accurate timeline.

gonzosgirrl · August 27, 2018

16 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Yes. But, that doesn't preclude any of my possibilities. I don't think the whole year has to mean that Sam went to him that day. Any time within a month would be close enough for "casual" conversation. He wasn't on the stand with lawyers demanding a super-accurate timeline.

IMO, it was anything but a casual conversation and also IMO, he knew he did the wrong thing and was defensive, thus the grudging admission. My impression from that scene, and Bobby's delivery of 'all year' strongly implies he knew the whole time.

AwesomO4000 · August 27, 2018

7 hours ago, ahrtee said:

But that loops back to the original idea: that SS *didn't care* about other's opinions or judgments. You're saying that he'd care so much that Dean was angry/disappointed with him that he decided not to contact him at all? So does that mean that he thought that Bobby wouldn't care? Or that he didn't care if Bobby was angry?

We can't have it both ways. Either he cared about his family's opinions enough to stay away, or he didn't care about anything, at which point, why go to either of them at all?

I think, that as @Airmid said, Sam didn't really care what anyone else thought except as it might pertain to inconveniencing him or questioning his mental health. I didn't say that Sam would care that Dean would be angry with him, but that Dean might "object to" what Sam was doing - as in "are you crazy? What's wrong with you?" which Soulless Sam did not want Dean to be wondering or asking. And Soulless Sam wouldn't necessarily want to tell Dean he was back, because he wouldn't want Dean looking too closely into what he had been up to. Depending on if he used any of regular Sam's old aliases or what kind of messes or evidence he left behind during his hunts, Dean might decide to check up on Sam, and might find out what he'd been doing. The easiest way for Soulless Sam to fly under the radar and continue on doing what he wanted to be doing was to make sure that he stayed off of Dean's radar.

With Bobby, Soulless Sam probably figured he could fake it enough to get by and that Bobby wouldn't look as closely as Dean would. Bobby was a good resource and Bobby had a useful library, so Soulless Sam probably thought those resources were worth the risk. Dean was just too risky to go see at first... and that turned out to be true, because Dean got suspicious pretty quickly once Sam did show up, and he wouldn't let it go once he got suspicious.

Airmid · August 27, 2018

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I guess it's too bad that they undermined, if not completely negated any defense of Sam not being responsible for his soulless self, right down to the 'I don't remember so how can I be sorry?' part, first in the Amara/Lizzie Borden ep, and then most egregiously with the return of Donatello, for whom losing his soul was a minor inconvenience he only had to choose to overcome.

We can toss those poor sods from S9 in that pile too, actually. The people whose souls were stolen due to the demon nun finally getting around to Abaddon's plan of capturing and twisting souls for her future army from hell. (I guess she decided she needed a few decades off for some beach time before starting. Though she was pretty much the spoon in the knife drawer given that she harped about souls flying right back when freed - while keeping her collection in glass bottles on shelves that were ready to collapse about two decades ago...)

Anyway - they were violent. The loss of their souls seemed to predispose them to violent acts and self-harm if memory serves correctly. Different than Sam of course, but still traumatic for those souls returning to their bodies. The souls had the ability to feel remorse and regret and sorrow, and would forever be under what their bodies did and what they had no part in. Pretty awful - makes you wonder if anyone was really saved in that episode outside of future victims.

Sambot was never written consistently to begin with, which did cause all kinds of problems later on. Given the lore of S6, I don't think Sam could be held responsible for what his body was doing. It could be argued that Sambot himself was simply existing as he was made to by Cas, and it was Cas that let him loose and failed to either know and/or care that something was majorly wrong. Sambot didn't have the capacity to even remotely understand what he did was wrong, and Sam's soul wasn't present, so it always struck me that Sam with his soul didn't owe an apology, even though he offered one once he found out what had gone down.

Then Sam and all those people from S9 get thrown under a bus because apparently, a soulless person can just ask themselves, "What would Mr. Rogers do?" and be completely fine unless a demon did nasty things to them. Because consistency, what's that?

Katy M · August 27, 2018

10 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

IMO, it was anything but a casual conversation and also IMO, he knew he did the wrong thing and was defensive, thus the grudging admission. My impression from that scene, and Bobby's delivery of 'all year' strongly implies he knew the whole time.

That's why I put casual in quotes. And, I didn't say he didn't do anything wrong. I said "all year" could mean all year minus a month, or a week, long enough for any of my suppositions to have taken place, as to how Sam found out Bobby was alive instead of just a cold call to a dead person.

Pondlass1 · August 27, 2018

It wasn't Bobby's call to make. Bobby decided Dean had 'got out" and that he should stay out. Dean had no say in the matter. Was Bobby in contact with Dean during that year? If he was, surely he could tell Dean was going out of his mind with grief. And how long was the ruse going to go on? It was incredibly cruel for Dean to have find out he'd been lied to, and my heart went out to Dean when he found out (superbly acted by Jensen I might add).

And to top it all off - Bobby had no clue something as wrong with Sam. Dean picked up on it right away but Bobby argued with him.

Bobby's place as a compassionate surrogate father began to slip for me ... he actually didn't know the brothers very well at all.

Edited August 27, 2018 by Pondlass1

ILoveReading · August 27, 2018

26 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

It wasn't Bobby's call to make.

This x1000. With the amount of times Bobby called Dean out on not letting Sam make his own decisions he was a massive hypocrite here. It's frustrating that this is something the show continues to do.

The Raid is another example. Dean has to learn his mom is an adult yet the episode ends Sam clearly intends on not recognizing Dean's autonomy. Sam gets rewarded for it in the end.

Another thing that bothered me is that Dean is clearly hurt and and Bobby is like, "well I did it for your own good because its the closes to happiess I've seen a hunter get" (or whatever he said). Who cares if hunters are happy. The only question that should have mattered to Bobby- Was Dean happy? Clearly, no. He was going through the motions.

What would have happened if Dean snapped and poked at the cage and Lucifer ended up being released? Would Bobby have accepted any responsibility/

Then when Sam decided he wanted Dean back, Bobby suddenly, "we don't get normal lives, go with your brother." When Dean suspected something was wrong with Sam, Bobby's like, "shut up and get in the car."

There was the "your not a person speech" vs "Sam stop worrying about Dean and live your own life speech.

The only way Bobby was a father figure was that was no better than John and saw Deans' worth in what he could/couldn't do for Sam. They basically turned him into John 2.0

I was glad when they killed off the character but he just won't go away. Not looking forward to AU Bobby being back for multiple episodes.

Edited August 27, 2018 by ILoveReading

Myrelle · August 27, 2018

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

This x1000. With the amount of times Bobby called Dean out on not letting Sam make his own decisions he was a massive hypocrite here. It's frustrating that this is something the show continues to do.

The Raid is another example. Dean has to learn his mom is an adult yet the episode ends Sam clearly intends on not recognizing Dean's autonomy. Sam gets rewarded for it in the end.

Another thing that bothered me is that Dean is clearly hurt and and Bobby is like, "well I did it for your own good because its the closes to happiess I've seen a hunter get" (or whatever he said). Who cares if hunters are happy. The only question that should have mattered to Bobby- Was Dean happy? Clearly, no. He was going through the motions.

What would have happened if Dean snapped and poked at the cage and Lucifer ended up being released? Would Bobby have accepted any responsibility/

Then when Sam decided he wanted Dean back, Bobby suddenly, "we don't get normal lives, go with your brother." When Dean suspected something was wrong with Sam, Bobby's like, "shut up and get in the car."

There was the "your not a person speech" vs "Sam stop worrying about Dean and live your own life speech.

The only way Bobby was a father figure was that was no better than John and saw Deans' worth in what he could/couldn't do for Sam. They basically turned him into John 2.0

I was glad when they killed off the character but he just won't go away. Not looking forward to AU Bobby being back for multiple episodes.

THIS! X 1,000.

I started losing it for Bobby in Yellow Fever, but when they turned him into John 2 in the S4 finale, I was done with him pretty much for good-and that was too bad because up until Yellow Fever, I liked the character a lot.

But that's become the norm on this show now and since S4 for me. And slowly, but surely, every single showrunner has contributed to all the ruination and character assassination for me, until only Dean is left as the sole character that I care about-and Dabb is certainly doing his best to remedy that situation, and after Comic Con I now fear for what S14 will bring for Dean-or, to be more specific, what it won't bring for him-because that's been Dabb's MO from S11 onward when after being presented with the something promising of the Darkness storyline for Dean, it was then dropped like a hot potato in favor of Sam's "visions" that lead into the umpteenth version of yet more Lucifer nonsense.

Dabb is killing Dean the only way that a showrunner can at this point and IMO-by writing for the character(and the actor who portrays him), in the most minimalist fashion possible. It's all just teasing again with Dabb where it concerns Dean, IMO-same as it was when he took over early from Carver in S11.

Spoiler

I can't remember who said it, but someone here said that S14 will likely be over for them after the first 6 episodes-or as soon as Dean's connection to Michael is severed for good, to be precise(because I think that was Dabb's plan all along; he just needed the ink to dry JA's new contract first)-and sadly, I'm feeling the same way, at this point.

ILoveReading · August 27, 2018

9 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Dabb is killing Dean the only way that a showrunner can at this point and IMO-by writing for the character(and the actor who portrays him), in the most minimalist fashion possible. It's all just teasing again with Dabb where it concerns Dean, IMO-same as it was when he took over early from Carver in S11.

Agree. Dabb has been slowly stripping everything that makes Dean, Dean these last 2.5 seasons. Based on spoilers for this season, I think he'll finally get his wish to take everything from Dean. I only hope Jensen signed a one year contract or we'll be back to 12B writing for the next 1.5 years.

Edited August 27, 2018 by ILoveReading

catrox14 · August 27, 2018

I don't think Dabb understands that Dean is more than just comic relief or angstfest. To me, he proved that in Yellow Fever. He also said Dean was a dick. So either he was elevating Sam by denigrating Dean or he thinks Dean is a dick.

I was rewatching Yellow Fever the other day and I really paid attention to that particular moment. Sam didn't say I'm a dick too, he only said, "That's not the only thing" and went on to talk about how they scare people and when Dean said then you're a dick, too, Sam said "Apparently not". Sure it was played for laughs but at no point did the narrative actually walk it back. Kripke had to come to Dabb's rescue and say, "No Dean isn't a dick" to the fans that were annoyed but it. And tbf, even if Dean acts like a dick at times, he's NOT actually a dick ALL the time nor in his basic core. At least not how Jensen plays him.

I think Dabb sees Dean as a dick. I think he knows that Jensen is a gold mine and he'd be foolish to not give him something every now and then, but I don't think Dabb likes Dean, cares about Dean, is interested in telling Dean's story other than how it relates to Sam. And even that is dubious because Sam is all about Lucifer now. Not Lucifer being about Sam which it was under Kripke.

And tangentially, I thought it was interesting that Jared said in a con or an interview that over time the writers would write to what the actors prefer. Jared said he prefers the emotional scenes for Sam so I think they are giving Sam the emo stuff, which I don't think is Jared's forte. I think it comes across as ACTING!!!. I think Jared is very good and subtle at playing other than Sam, angry Sam, bitchy Sam and annoyed Sam, but emo Sam....doesn't do much for me. YMMV. If you think he excels at those, fair enough. I don't.

Jensen says he likes to find comedy where it isn't and lately that's not served Dean well because it's forced comedy now instead of natural reaction from Dean to use snark in the face of ...well anything. It's gone from clever comedy that is organic to a situation to more slapstick IMO clearly written as comedy. Jensen says he likes action and he's getting more of that but boy, did they screw up the biggest fight in Dean's life with the Team America fight scene.

And yet, when it comes time for a big emo scene where it's organic to the story, they still come back to Jensen and he's the carrot for a lot of fans but they never follow the carrot with an actual meal. It's so frustrating!

Casseiopeia · August 27, 2018

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I don't think Dabb understands that Dean is more than just comic relief or angstfest. To me, he proved that in Yellow Fever. He also said Dean was a dick. So either he was elevating Sam by denigrating Dean or he thinks Dean is a dick.

I was rewatching Yellow Fever the other day and I really paid attention to that particular moment. Sam didn't say I'm a dick too, he only said, "That's not the only thing" and went on to talk about how they scare people and when Dean said then you're a dick, too, Sam said "Apparently not". Sure it was played for laughs but at no point did the narrative actually walk it back. Kripke had to come to Dabb's rescue and say, "No Dean isn't a dick" to the fans that were annoyed but it. And tbf, even if Dean acts like a dick at times, he's NOT actually a dick ALL the time nor in his basic core. At least not how Jensen plays him.

I think Dabb sees Dean as a dick. I think he knows that Jensen is a gold mine and he'd be foolish to not give him something every now and then, but I don't think Dabb likes Dean, cares about Dean, is interested in telling Dean's story other than how it relates to Sam. And even that is dubious because Sam is all about Lucifer now. Not Lucifer being about Sam which it was under Kripke.

And tangentially, I thought it was interesting that Jared said in a con or an interview that over time the writers would write to what the actors prefer. Jared said he prefers the emotional scenes for Sam so I think they are giving Sam the emo stuff, which I don't think is Jared's forte. I think it comes across as ACTING!!!. I think Jared is very good and subtle at playing other than Sam, angry Sam, bitchy Sam and annoyed Sam, but emo Sam....doesn't do much for me. YMMV. If you think he excels at those, fair enough. I don't.

Jensen says he likes to find comedy where it isn't and lately that's not served Dean well because it's forced comedy now instead of natural reaction from Dean to use snark in the face of ...well anything. It's gone from clever comedy that is organic to a situation to more slapstick IMO clearly written as comedy. Jensen says he likes action and he's getting more of that but boy, did they screw up the biggest fight in Dean's life with the Team America fight scene.

And yet, when it comes time for a big emo scene where it's organic to the story, they still come back to Jensen and he's the carrot for a lot of fans but they never follow the carrot with an actual meal. It's so frustrating!

I don't think Dabb cares about Jensen/Dean or Jared/Sam at all. He knows all he has to do is insert them into his "other" awesome story once and a while and the fans go wild. Apparently the plummeting ratings isn't of any concern since Pedowitz has ensured Supernatural's tenure as long as Jared and Jensen are on board. He seems to have been given free rein to tell whatever the hell story he wants and apparently that isn't the very complicated story of the Winchesters.

"but boy, did they screw up the biggest fight in Dean's life with the Team America fight scene."

And now because Dabb never really committed to that story line (build up, back story anyone) he isn't even interested enough to flesh out the character so that Jensen has some idea where he is supposed to go with it.

Jensen is versatile enough to play just about any emotional, dramatic or comedic scenes. I think Jared is also good at those types of roles but not as good as Jensen. Jared at least for me is best at evil.

Edited August 27, 2018 by Casseiopeia

AwesomO4000 · August 28, 2018

Brought over from the "Bitter Spoilers" thread. No real spoilers here:

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Sam's had the "Big Moments" that set his course to General Winchester, specifically, 12.22 with his speech, with one of them featuring the supposed other General, Gen. Dean Winchester (almost ret'd) telling him "you got this" before sending him to fight without him. That's a huge moment that I don't see them walking back other than some small missteps to getting his 2nd star, so to speak.

Yes, Sam agreed to let Lucifer keep him alive but he didn't do it for selfish reasons, IMO. He wanted to save Mary, Jack and the other rebels. That was the goal when they all crossed over. They did not anticipate that vampires existed in that world much less that Sam would be bitten and eventually turned, much less that Dean would have left Sam's body behind for a hot minute. But Berens, for plot purposes decided that Sam had to be separated to give Lucifer a shot at seeing his son, because the reality is that was the whole point in that episode. To bring Lucifer to Jack. So for me that wasn't Sam fucking up, it was Sam making the best choice out of bad choices.

I can see where it might seem like Sam's decision making was undermined for plot but I don't think they'll continue to undermine it because Sam in 13.23 was the one that was leading the charge to protect what's her name, the teenage girl that suddenly was SO important and protecting Jack. Sam apparently got through to Gabriel as well, who did kill Asmodeus, even if Gabriel flew the coop afterward. IMO, that didn't make Sam incompetent or a bad leader since it was all to set up Gabriel to have another redemption since the first IMO GOOD redemption was undermined by Dabb et al just to have a reason for Gabriel to come back.

I think they have established Sam as a leader now and even leaders have missteps but nothing that would cause him to be stripped of his status as Official Leader or at minimum Official Co-Leader. I really don't see Dabb et al, destroying that unless they do an about face on Sam and have him go dark side, and become the Boy King of demons etc...that would be a swerve but I don't think they will do that.

The reason I just don't see the same Sam being set up as the leader so clearly is because of how everything has been presented. You see 12.22 as a big set up for Sam as leader... I saw it as a set up for Sam to have to admit he was wrong in front of a bunch of people and then beg a those people who were already leaning in that direction anyway to let him be a part of it even though he entirely screwed up. The scene even made it look like the group would rather have had Dean be the one to lead them ("oh good, is your brother coming?") but since he wasn't going they'd have to settle for Sam... once Dean gave his okay. And on the actual hunt, Sam was basically just another guy on the raid. Jody actually had the big kill.

Then if that was supposedly momentum for Sam as leader, they spent the next season ignoring that. Sam had a chance to take the reigns with Jack and get Dean to see his side through example, but nope... he didn't want to do that on his own, so he cajoled Dean into doing it with him. Missed opportunity for Sam as leader right there. This is telling me that Sam is still uncomfortable making those kinds of decisions on his own. Things don't go too badly with Jack, but is that because of Sam, or because Dean came along for the ride to offer support and advice?

As if to answer that, then there was the entire last segment of the season. We finally shift over to Sam making some decisions, but the narrative goes out of its way to show us that really, really bad things happen when Sam makes decisions and leads. I'll break down the final episodes with Sam's "leadership":

First, using Lucifer's grace to open the rift was Sam's plan. The narrative made sure to point this out specifically, by having Dean broadcast it. This plan put Lucifer in the position to end up over in the alternate universe and get the ball rolling to bad things happening. And it isn't like Sam doesn't know first hand how things can go wrong when your plan hinges on Rowena doing something. Misstep number 1 for "leader" Sam.
Next, Sam and Dean come across Floyd and Maggie and save them from some vampires... that they knew were in the tunnel, because Floyd and Maggie told them so. Sam decides that they can't wait and take the long way around, even though Gabriel tries to say that choosing the safer route might be better. They already have a two day trip, how much longer can the long way around really add? But Sam convinces everyone they're taking the short way, because they've faced much worse than a nest of vampires - who just picked off 7 of 9 of a group of previous apocalypse survivors, Sam was told, but hey, that's not important - and pledging that they will protect them. Not only does Sam not protect them - considering Floyd, who was previously alive and would have remained alive but for Sam's stupid decision - Sam gets himself killed. Dean is the one to save Maggie - twice. Sam let's Floyd be dragged away and killed. The Sam's deal with Lucifer to let him live puts the remaining people in the rebel group on Lucifer's and Michael's radar. Monumentally stupid misstep #2 (Though it should probably count as more).
In order to make things easier for Dean and Mary - since Mary doesn't want to leave everyone, Sam comes up with the idea to get the rest of the group through the rift into their world to regroup rather than stay put, but hey their outpost is now compromised anyway, so... Three more of the group gets killed by Michael in that endeavor. Misstep #3.
After some convoluted plan that I can't exactly remember but am sure Sam doesn't follow, Sam decides on his own to push Lucifer back and trap him in the Alternate Universe... where Lucifer has a chance to join forces with alternate world Michael, thereby assuring that they'll both be able to come back to the regular world and wreak havoc there. Good going Sam! I mean sure this likely shouldn't have been a bad decision, but the point is that the way the narrative presented it - it was. So why even have that be Sam's decision? Why not have it be an accident that Lucifer was left behind? What are the writers trying to tell me? Misstep #4.

Then back in the real world, it was just more of Sam looking incompetent or ineffective while Dean does the majority of the heavy lifting. The aforementioned (on the other thread) Sam running right at Michael while Dean stops to actually think and arm himself with an angel blade. Dean taking the initiative to stop Jack from hurting the guy in the convenience store. Sam stopping Castiel from attacking Michael, but Dean actually being the one to get out the holy oil and slow Michael down, allowing everyone to escape. Dean being the one to take the initiative to save everyone else, by making the deal with Michael... once again having to clean up Sam's mess.

And yes, based on the above breakdown and how explicit the narrative was in laying down how Sam's decisions lead to Lucifer and Michael being able to be get to the regular world, I fully believe that this was set up to be Sam's mess. My prediction - and no spoilers here, just my thinking - Sam is going to have to step up now, because his mess lead to Dean being taken away by Michael. He's going to find out - again since he's already had to learn this lesson a few times - that trying to lead is difficult, but he has no choice, because his bad decisions got them to this point. He's going to fumble through and finally be able to do it, but when he does get Dean back, he's going to be glad to turn things back over to Dean... as will everybody else, because apparently Sam can't make a good decision to save his life according to the writers.

And for me that is the agenda as I see it. The set up from season 13 has too many "Sam's decisions go bad" anvils for me to think otherwise. And every time something was going to go wrong, the writers were trying way too hard to make sure we knew it was Sam's fault, starting from the beginning with "Sam has a plan!!! Did we tell you that this is Sam's plan? We did? Well, it is!!! We just wanted to make sure that you knew that this is Sam's plan!!! Now, let's watch it all go wrong!!!"

And no, I don't think it's an accident and/or that they didn't really mean to make it look that way. I think it's an on purpose.

FlickChick · August 28, 2018

On 8/27/2018 at 12:48 PM, Casseiopeia said:

I don't think Dabb cares about Jensen/Dean or Jared/Sam at all. He knows all he has to do is insert them into his "other" awesome story once and a while and the fans go wild. Apparently the plummeting ratings isn't of any concern since Pedowitz has ensured Supernatural's tenure as long as Jared and Jensen are on board. He seems to have been given free rein to tell whatever the hell story he wants and apparently that isn't the very complicated story of the Winchesters

What I want to know is how the fuck someone like Dabb is allowed to become and to continue as a showrunner in this series that has the Winchesters as its center and the actors who portray them as its stars! What the hell is wrong with Singer? Why the hell is Dabb running this show? Who hires the writers that don't care enough to learn about/watch the show before writing episodes? My god, has this show gone to hell with the current regime.

Casseiopeia · August 28, 2018

16 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

What I want to know is how the fuck someone like Dabb is allowed to become and to continue as a showrunner in this series that has the Winchesters as its center and the actors who portray them as its stars

They don't have to pay him much?

I really really want to be excited for Supernatural. I have dreaded each season premiere since Dabb took over and botched the last half of S11. I don't want to dread the show returning. But so far the teasers we've gotten have been Sam is moping around the bunker trying to keep the AU people busy, Mary and Bobby are going to hook up, the awesome series that we should be watching instead of Supernatural is going to be shoved down our throats, Jack and Castiel are going to go on father/son adventures.....oh and Jensen is going to be a different character for a few episodes.

Say what you will about Carver we did have some pretty fun season ending cliffhangers. S8 Angels falling/Sam dying/Cas is human, S9 Dean turns into a demon (I was inconsolable for weeks), S10 Dean kills death and the Darkness is released.

Under Dabb we got in S11 after some couples counseling Dean runs into mom and Sam gets shot...again. S12 Sam and Dean stand around while mom gets into a fist fight with Lucifer and a man explodes out of Kelly's uterus, S13 Dean and Lucifer have a marionette fight and everyone is embarrassed for all involved....mostly because Jensens big moment 13 years in the making was thrown together in the last few minutes of the finale which up until that point was a meandering waste of 39 minutes.

Someone else needs to write the season finales from now on...Andrew Dabb sucks at it.

I miss counting the days until the show returned. Now I just dread it.

DeeDee79 · August 28, 2018

20 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

They don't have to pay him much?

I really really want to be excited for Supernatural. I have dreaded each season premiere since Dabb took over and botched the last half of S11. I don't want to dread the show returning. But so far the teasers we've gotten have been Sam is moping around the bunker trying to keep the AU people busy, Mary and Bobby are going to hook up, the awesome series that we should be watching instead of Supernatural is going to be shoved down our throats, Jack and Castiel are going to go on father/son adventures.....oh and Jensen is going to be a different character for a few episodes.

Say what you will about Carver we did have some pretty fun season ending cliffhangers. S8 Angels falling/Sam dying/Cas is human, S9 Dean turns into a demon (I was inconsolable for weeks), S10 Dean kills death and the Darkness is released.

Under Dabb we got in S11 after some couples counseling Dean runs into mom and Sam gets shot...again. S12 Sam and Dean stand around while mom gets into a fist fight with Lucifer and a man explodes out of Kelly's uterus, S13 Dean and Lucifer have a marionette fight and everyone is embarrassed for all involved....mostly because Jensens big moment 13 years in the making was thrown together in the last few minutes of the finale which up until that point was a meandering waste of 39 minutes.

Someone else needs to write the season finales from now on...Andrew Dabb sucks at it.

I miss counting the days until the show returned. Now I just dread it.

I agree with your entire post. Also, this

Quote

and a man explodes out of Kelly's uterus

is hilarious!

Myrelle · August 29, 2018

18 hours ago, FlickChick said:

What I want to know is how the fuck someone like Dabb is allowed to become and to continue as a showrunner in this series that has the Winchesters as its center and the actors who portray them as its stars! What the hell is wrong with Singer? Why the hell is Dabb running this show? Who hires the writers that don't care enough to learn about/watch the show before writing episodes? My god, has this show gone to hell with the current regime.

17 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

They don't have to pay him much?

I really really want to be excited for Supernatural. I have dreaded each season premiere since Dabb took over and botched the last half of S11. I don't want to dread the show returning. But so far the teasers we've gotten have been Sam is moping around the bunker trying to keep the AU people busy, Mary and Bobby are going to hook up, the awesome series that we should be watching instead of Supernatural is going to be shoved down our throats, Jack and Castiel are going to go on father/son adventures.....oh and Jensen is going to be a different character for a few episodes.

Say what you will about Carver we did have some pretty fun season ending cliffhangers. S8 Angels falling/Sam dying/Cas is human, S9 Dean turns into a demon (I was inconsolable for weeks), S10 Dean kills death and the Darkness is released.

Under Dabb we got in S11 after some couples counseling Dean runs into mom and Sam gets shot...again. S12 Sam and Dean stand around while mom gets into a fist fight with Lucifer and a man explodes out of Kelly's uterus, S13 Dean and Lucifer have a marionette fight and everyone is embarrassed for all involved....mostly because Jensens big moment 13 years in the making was thrown together in the last few minutes of the finale which up until that point was a meandering waste of 39 minutes.

Someone else needs to write the season finales from now on...Andrew Dabb sucks at it.

I miss counting the days until the show returned. Now I just dread it.

17 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

I agree with your entire post. Also, this

Quote

and a man explodes out of Kelly's uterus

is hilarious!

Ah, the B vs J and Bitterness threads save my day again. I LOL! at that, too-and man did that laughter ever feel good after having visited the Supernormal thread first this morning.

Thanks! I needed that!! :-D

gonzosgirrl · August 30, 2018

32 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Discussion time,

Since the show loves angst will Michael kill one of Dean's loved ones and if so who?

I'd like to it to be Mary.

OMG, this would be amazing. But Dean would never get over it, so, no, I can't wish for it. They already killed Cas and Sam recently, so I doubt it would be either of them. Jack is too popular with the teens (yes, I know, it's not just them). If it's someone he cares about, I'd put my money on one of the Wayward Sisters. They aren't needed for the spinoff now and it would really amp up his guilt and turn even more fans off Dean. So yeah, I'd place my bet there. Maximum angst, Jody or Donna, then Claire, Alex, Patience and Not!Kaia in descending order.

AwesomO4000 · August 30, 2018

Brought over from the Spoilers with Speculation thread... No spoilers, only speculation:

42 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Discussion time,

Since the show loves angst will Michael kill one of Dean's loved ones and if so who?

I'd like to it to be Mary.

I don't think Michael will kill someone major, because even though the Angelus dilemma shouldn't apply here, I don't know if the writers would still have the guts to do it with Dean being involved. If they did have Michael kill someone, it would probably end up being someone associated somehow more with Sam - because Sam can't generally have friends without them getting killed off somehow - like Jody (which I would hate) or Claire (which wouldn't affect me much but might affect Sam and Castiel). I suppose it could be Donna (which I would also dislike.) I think Ketch and Alternate Universe Charlie are still in the Alternate Universe, right? So they should be safe from Michael. (And I'm sure they'll be the leaders of the resistance by the time we get back there, if we get back there.)

If it was Mary somehow, my guess is it would somehow be something Sam did - like getting Michael out of Dean and he heads for Mary and either kills her or damages her somehow.

10 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Maximum angst, Jody or Donna, then Claire,

It's kind of scary that as you were writing this, I was predicting something similar above. Perhaps that doesn't bode well for Jody. Dammit, I like Jody.

DeeDee79 · August 30, 2018

47 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Brought over from the Spoilers with Speculation thread... No spoilers, only speculation:

I don't think Michael will kill someone major, because even though the Angelus dilemma shouldn't apply here, I don't know if the writers would still have the guts to do it with Dean being involved. If they did have Michael kill someone, it would probably end up being someone associated somehow more with Sam - because Sam can't generally have friends without them getting killed off somehow - like Jody (which I would hate) or Claire (which wouldn't affect me much but might affect Sam and Castiel). I suppose it could be Donna (which I would also dislike.) I think Ketch and Alternate Universe Charlie are still in the Alternate Universe, right? So they should be safe from Michael. (And I'm sure they'll be the leaders of the resistance by the time we get back there, if we get back there.)

If it was Mary somehow, my guess is it would somehow be something Sam did - like getting Michael out of Dean and he heads for Mary and either kills her or damages her somehow.

It's kind of scary that as you were writing this, I was predicting something similar above. Perhaps that doesn't bode well for Jody. Dammit, I like Jody.

I don’t quite understand this. Sam and Dean basically have the same circle of family and friends at this point so why wouldn’t a character death affect Dean as well Sam?

Katy M · August 30, 2018

1 hour ago, DeeDee79 said:

I don’t quite understand this. Sam and Dean basically have the same circle of family and friends at this point so why wouldn’t a character death affect Dean as well Sam?

I think they have people that one is closer to than the other. I don't think I would put Claire in that category, though. I probably would Jody, but Dean would also be upset. Sam/gadreel killed Kevin, though, so show definitely has precedent for doing it.

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