Princess Sparkle January 8, 2018 Share January 8, 2018 Reminder: While this is a thread for discussion if you've made your point a few times, agree to disagree and move on. Link to comment
catrox14 January 8, 2018 Share January 8, 2018 46 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said: Well...actually, they're not even. When Sam jumped in the cage, he saved all the people on earth. As far as I know, Heaven and Hell themselves were not in danger from Michael fighting Lucifer. When Dean talked Amara down, he saved all the people on earth (and other beings on other planets throughout the Chuck-created universe), and the demons, and the ghosts in the veil, and the angels, and all the souls in Heaven and in Hell - all of which would have been destroyed. So I think Dean forever wins the who has most saves game. :) We were talking about humanity. Angels, demons, ghosts and monsters were on Earth when Sam made his Swan dive so they would be saved as well because it would have been the war between Heaven and Hell on earth which would have killed humanity, angels and demons getting an Apocalypse World. The monsters probably would have been killed by angels or sent back to Purgatory. it could argued that saving monsters, demons and angels was bad in a way given all the humans they have killed LOL Even in that case Dean didn't do it alone. The whole team helped figure out how to kill Amara. Dean was just the soul bomb. Pigeon Lady should probably get most of the credit because she put the bug in Amaras head that family mattered which Dean just expanded on. As to Lucifer vessel, it was set up from the jump that they should be the Chosen Vessels so Sam needing any demon blood to be contained was a stupid writing choice. I think it was done to make Sam even more sympathetic to have deal with his addiction again. Nick wasn't the chosen vessel so him needing it mad sense. it never made sense for Sam to need it. Link to comment
RulerofallIsurvey January 8, 2018 Share January 8, 2018 1 minute ago, catrox14 said: We were talking about humanity. Were you? That was not explicitly clear to me. So are you saying then that saving all the angels and souls in Heaven doesn't count? 'Cause I think it does. I think they would also think it does. But ymmv. 3 minutes ago, catrox14 said: Even in that case Dean didn't do it alone. Neither did Sam, but this has all been hashed out before and I'm not interested in revisiting the point so if it's okay with you, I'll just agree to disagree: once again. I was making a fairly light-hearted comment. Sorry if it fell flat for you. 4 Link to comment
RulerofallIsurvey January 8, 2018 Share January 8, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, catrox14 said: As to Lucifer vessel, it was set up from the jump that they should be the Chosen Vessels so Sam needing any demon blood to be contained was a stupid writing choice. I think it was done to make Sam even more sympathetic to have deal with his addiction again. Nick wasn't the chosen vessel so him needing it mad sense. it never made sense for Sam to need it. I'll admit that I get confused between the terms like Chosen Vessel, and One True Vessel, etc. And I'm not sure it makes much difference. Then again, I don't think it was ever explicitly stated that the One True Chosen Vessel of Lucifer wouldn't need to drink demon blood to contain the Satan, so there's that. Edited January 8, 2018 by RulerofallIsurvey spell check failed me! 2 Link to comment
Wayward Son January 8, 2018 Share January 8, 2018 17 hours ago, catrox14 said: I have zero problem with debating the issue but I don't see the point of suggesting Dean fans are desperate because there is a difference of opinion over the interpretation of events. And even if it was true that Dean fans are "desperate" that doesn't make their (our) arguments invalid. No one here has suggested that he was not depressed in s5. What I(and I think others) ARE saying is that Dean's decision was not suicidal because he wasn't doing it TO DIE for the sake of dying or because he gave up on life. He was giving up on Sam at that point. That's not the same as suicidal. Dean had the knowledge from THE END. Do you really think that had nothing to do with Dean's choices? I feel pretty confident in saying that Dean was remembering those events. ean said, "Saving half the planet is better than not saving any of the planet" which is exactly what Future Dean said. Again, it's not actually an unreasonable choice given the givens that Dean was convinced that Sam would say yes. The whole reason for Dean saying yes to Michael is that he believed he would be strong enough to beat Samifer so that he could save half the planet. That was his plan. It wasn't complicated. That said, Dean changes his tactics at the drop of hat. So to me that isn't really an idea born of being a "desperate" Dean fan to think he'd try to talk Michael down but is really rather reasonable given Dean having done that with John when he was possessed by Azazel. And if Dean could get through to John to fight off Azazel, I think it's pretty reasonable to think Dean would, himself, attempt to convince Michael to take another stance and if he couldn't win that, then fight tooth and nail to make sure that he beats Samifer. That's not "desperate" thinking by Dean fans. That's understanding the character. IMO there are two way of looking at events. 1) There is what I call the meta approach i.e. we the viewers judge the events as a story / artistic endeavor and praise and criticize the elements of it they agree or disagree. While I am happy with the way events played out on this level I can see where fans like yourself are coming from. I would agree had the writers chosen to approach the scenario differently and had Dean come up with a plan to let say yes to Michael in order to influence him from the inside it would not be out of character. I feel the way they approached it is also in character, but your preference could have worked. 2) There is what I call the textual approach i.e. where we judge the actions of the characters from an in story perspective i.e. in canon verse Sam and Dean don't know they're characters on a show and from their perspective they're 'real' people. It is from this perspective I completely and utterly disagree with you and others with a similar viewpoint. While at a meta level the writers could have written Dean with a master plan the fact is IMO they didn't and there is nothing from Dean to suggest this was the case. Therefore, Sam, Bobby and Castiel were reacting to what was happening in 'their lives' and not 'what could have been happening'. I've seen fans criticizing the characters, rather than the writers, for their choices and treating Dean with a double standard. IMO, as I outlined to @ILoveReading, they didn't. What Sam proposed (i.e. they save pretty much everyone by using the horse mans rings to jump into the cage) and what Dean proposed (go with the angel's plan and save half the planet) are two different things and understandably garnered two different responses. In addition to this, their attitudes were completely different. Sam made it clear from the start he wanted to stop the angels plan in addition to Lucifer and promised not to do so unless he gained approval from the entire group. Dean, on the other hand, just declared he was going against everything they'd spent months fighting about and there was nothing they could do to stop him. Two totally different attitudes which again understandably garnered two different responses. 4 Link to comment
gonzosgirrl January 8, 2018 Share January 8, 2018 (edited) 53 minutes ago, Wayward Son said: IMO there are two way of looking at events. 1) There is what I call the meta approach i.e. we the viewers judge the events as a story / artistic endeavor and praise and criticize the elements of it they agree or disagree. While I am happy with the way events played out on this level I can see where fans like yourself are coming from. I would agree had the writers chosen to approach the scenario differently and had Dean come up with a plan to let say yes to Michael in order to influence him from the inside it would not be out of character. I feel the way they approached it is also in character, but your preference could have worked. 2) There is what I call the textual approach i.e. where we judge the actions of the characters from an in story perspective i.e. in canon verse Sam and Dean don't know they're characters on a show and from their perspective they're 'real' people. It is from this perspective I completely and utterly disagree with you and others with a similar viewpoint. While at a meta level the writers could have written Dean with a master plan the fact is IMO they didn't and there is nothing from Dean to suggest this was the case. Therefore, Sam, Bobby and Castiel were reacting to what was happening in 'their lives' and not 'what could have been happening'. I've seen fans criticizing the characters, rather than the writers, for their choices and treating Dean with a double standard. IMO, as I outlined to @ILoveReading, they didn't. What Sam proposed (i.e. they save pretty much everyone by using the horse mans rings to jump into the cage) and what Dean proposed (go with the angel's plan and save half the planet) are two different things and understandably garnered two different responses. In addition to this, their attitudes were completely different. Sam made it clear from the start he wanted to stop the angels plan in addition to Lucifer and promised not to do so unless he gained approval from the entire group. Dean, on the other hand, just declared he was going against everything they'd spent months fighting about and there was nothing they could do to stop him. Two totally different attitudes which again understandably garnered two different responses. But Dean saw what happened in the when Sam said yes and he (Dean) did not. His own future self told him to go back and to say yes, and still he didn't - not until he felt there was no other way and that Sam would say yes eventually. I don't know why anyone would think that Sam could control Lucifer - he couldn't overcome a simple spirit influence (Asylum) or minor-league demon possession (Meg). But he's gonna control Lucifer? I think Dean deciding to let Michael in and fight Lucifer in his rapidly-decaying Nick-suit before Sam said yes was a good, if tough, decision. They didn't know about the 'key' to Luci's cage at this point. But then, once 5x18 happened, and Michael had Adam, then Gabriel revealed that the rings were the key, and the plan for Sam to jump in the cage came along, Dean agreed because he could do something different than "future" Dean did - he could support him instead of choosing his hemisphere. And even that was almost not enough - Lucifer took immediate and full control of Sam, just like he did in the Endverse. Only Dean's influence (or the little plastic soldier's influence, if I'm being cynical) gave him enough control to jump into the cage. Edited January 8, 2018 by gonzosgirrl 4 Link to comment
catrox14 January 8, 2018 Share January 8, 2018 The entire premise of s5 was set up that Sam and Dean were the Chosen Vessels for Lucifer and Michael full stop. That's why every other vessel, including Nick, fell apart with Lucifer's power. It was never said until Swan Song that demon blood had to be used by Sam to contain Lucifer and to be strong enough to beat Michael. There was no reason at all writing wise to throw that in there other than for Sam to have to deal with his prior addiction. 36 minutes ago, Wayward Son said: IMO there are two way of looking at events. 1) There is what I call the meta approach i.e. we the viewers judge the events as a story / artistic endeavor and praise and criticize the elements of it they agree or disagree. While I am happy with the way events played out on this level I can see where fans like yourself are coming from. I would agree had the writers chosen to approach the scenario differently and had Dean come up with a plan to let say yes to Michael in order to influence him from the inside it would not be out of character. I feel the way they approached it is also in character, but your preference could have worked. 2) There is what I call the textual approach i.e. where we judge the actions of the characters from an in story perspective i.e. in canon verse Sam and Dean don't know they're characters on a show and from their perspective they're 'real' people. It is from this perspective I completely and utterly disagree with you and others with a similar viewpoint. While at a meta level the writers could have written Dean with a master plan the fact is IMO they didn't and there is nothing from Dean to suggest this was the case. Therefore, Sam, Bobby and Castiel were reacting to what was happening in 'their lives' and not 'what could have been happening'. I've seen fans criticizing the characters, rather than the writers, for their choices and treating Dean with a double standard. IMO, as I outlined to @ILoveReading, they didn't. What Sam proposed (i.e. they save pretty much everyone by using the horse mans rings to jump into the cage) and what Dean proposed (go with the angel's plan and save half the planet) are two different things and understandably garnered two different responses. In addition to this, their attitudes were completely different. Sam made it clear from the start he wanted to stop the angels plan in addition to Lucifer and promised not to do so unless he gained approval from the entire group. Dean, on the other hand, just declared he was going against everything they'd spent months fighting about and there was nothing they could do to stop him. Two totally different attitudes which again understandably garnered two different responses. ? I am basing my interpretation of the text and character traits, past and present (as of s5). Dean attempting to talk someone out of something, regardless of it's relative success or failure, is a character trait he's displayed numerous times, in show. It's not me pulling that out of thin air or making it a meta interpretation. Dean's done it before, no reason to think he wouldn't keep that in his arsenal of tactics. There is nothing textually on screen that said that Dean disregarded what he saw in THE END or that he didn't remember it. He told Zachariah, "I learned a lesson you weren't teaching" which doesn't mean he ever forgot what he saw and that it didn't sit in is head a bit. It seems the narrative didn't ignore it either, when he said "It's better to save half the planet, than none of it". There is nothing meta in that part of the analysis and criticism. That's coming right from the events of THE END. Link to comment
ILoveReading January 8, 2018 Share January 8, 2018 1 hour ago, Wayward Son said: What Sam proposed (i.e. they save pretty much everyone by using the horse mans rings to jump into the cage) and what Dean proposed (go with the angel's plan and save half the planet) are two different things and understandably garnered two different responses. In addition to this, their attitudes were completely different. Sam made it clear from the start he wanted to stop the angels plan in addition to Lucifer and promised not to do so unless he gained approval from the entire group. Dean, on the other hand, just declared he was going against everything they'd spent months fighting about and there was nothing they could do to stop him. Two totally different attitudes which again understandably garnered two different responses. The circumstances in which Sam came up with his plan were really no different. He was upset that Dean last faith in him, and he was drunk and even more upset that Dean left him to go work with a demon. He was low like Dean, just in a different way. What Sam proposed is basically walking the bases loaded in the bottom of their ninth and then send in their weakest pitcher against their strongest pitcher. I now the show like to ignore that Sam couldn't do anything against two very minor league opponents but its an elephant in the room that should have been brought up the minute Sam brought up the idea. As for Dean being down, he's been down and close to being out before. But if he finds a spark, even a small one we've seen him come back, there is a precedent to this. In season 7, Dean was ready to give up because he didn't see any options. Then they had the idea to use Death and Dean was back in the fight. Same with the end of s11. They had given up. Then when Sam rallied the troops, Dean fought back. So him saying yes because he was saw no other way out is not a guarantee that he wouldn't fight back. I don't think Michael was a developed enough to say he had no flaws Dean could exploit. I just don't see Dean in any circumstance just sit back and let Michael destroy half the world without trying to stop him. Especially since Michael told him he wouldn't leave him a drooling mess which meant that if Michael and Lucifer fought Dean would be alive in the end and have to deal with his body being used to destroy half the world. The guilt would have consumed him alive. As for Sam saying he would only do it everyone agreed that turned out to be not true. Quote LUCIFER: The Horsemen's rings? The magic keys to my Cage? Ring a bell? Come on, Sam. I've never lied to you. You could at least pay me the same respect. It's okay. I'm not mad. A wrestling match inside your noggin... I like the idea. Just you and me, one round, no tricks. You win, you jump in the hole. I win... Well, then I win. What do you say, Sam? A fiddle of gold against your soul says I'm better than you. SAM: So he knows. Doesn't change anything. DEAN: Sam. SAM: We don't have any other choice.DEAN: No. SAM: Yes. Dean had clearly changed his mind here. Sam did it anyway which says to me he was planning on doing it anyway regardless. There are many times throughout the show were Sam came up with an idea and just did it and Dean was expected to be fully on board. Despite Dean declaring that he was going to do it regardless of what anyone said or thought, in the end he changed his mind. So its another case of the tell not really matching the show. So it doesn't matter what Sam said, because actions matter more than words. So in the end the whole "My way or the highway' ended up reversed. Sam joining the The Brits is a perfect example. The Raid made Dean learn a lesson about respecting Mary's choices, yet in the end Sam demonstrates he clearly plans to disrespects Dean's. So I do think this is a double standard, the writers have. They've demonstrated it on more than one occasion. Imagine if Dean did to Sam what Sam did by manipulating Dean? The show wouldn't have had Sam roll over and take it. So that's why I do think there there is a double standard with each wanting to say yes. Dean didn't do it because he wanted to see half the world destroyed. He was trying to save at least as he could because at that point he figured the fight was inevitable. What he saw in The End had to heavily influence his decison. Since Lucifer at this point was really weak, it didn't like there would be much of the fight, anyway. The show didn't need to treat it like Dean was some kind of weak quitter. Because I don't think quitting was the primary motivation. When Sam came up with his plan, no one questioned it. We had one brief scene with a token objection than everyone thought it was the best plan in the world when there were several fatal flaws. Dean was just expected to be on board whether he agreed or not, and it was framed that if he didn't it meant he didn't have faith in Sam, IMO, this is where the double standard comes from. This might be more unpopular opinion but good thing the sun was shining that day, because Sam failed otherwsie. . 5 Link to comment
catrox14 January 8, 2018 Share January 8, 2018 55 minutes ago, ILoveReading said: This might be more unpopular opinion but good thing the sun was shining that day, because Sam failed otherwsie. Okay I chuckled at this. 3 Link to comment
RulerofallIsurvey January 8, 2018 Share January 8, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, catrox14 said: The entire premise of s5 was set up that Sam and Dean were the Chosen Vessels for Lucifer and Michael full stop. That's why every other vessel, including Nick, fell apart with Lucifer's power. I don't recall (up until S5) Lucifer trying any other vessel other than Nick once he couldn't get Sam. But anyway, to me that doesn't explain why Adam didn't immediately start falling apart with Michael inside, since he wasn't the One True Chosen Vessel either and by employing parallel logic, then he should have. Then again - to me, and I understand that most don't agree with this - there is a difference between the archangel Michael and the fallen archangel (The Satan) Lucifer. The discrepancy does not bother me like it appears to bother others. 2 hours ago, catrox14 said: It was never said until Swan Song that demon blood had to be used by Sam to contain Lucifer and to be strong enough to beat Michael. My point was: it was never NOT said either. But once again, I don't want hash tonight or rehash :). So agree to disagree. Edited January 8, 2018 by RulerofallIsurvey fixed verb tense 1 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 January 8, 2018 Share January 8, 2018 24 minutes ago, ILoveReading said: Dean had clearly changed his mind here. Sam did it anyway which says to me he was planning on doing it anyway regardless. In my opinion, that was the blood talking. Sam was all hopped up on the gallons of demon blood which makes him arrogant and reckless. Which is why I think that Sam all of a sudden needing to drink demon blood was thrown in there to begin with... to deal with the pesky problem of Sam saying "yes" even though Lucifer knew about their plan. Sam all arrogant and on demon blood means he's likely going to say "yes"... so the plot had him have to drink demon blood. My opinion on that one. 28 minutes ago, ILoveReading said: I now the show like to ignore that Sam couldn't do anything against two very minor league opponents but its an elephant in the room that should have been brought up the minute Sam brought up the idea. Back when those two things happened - back in season 1 and 2 - Sam also hadn't yet exorcised demons with his mind, killed a god with his mind, and killed two upper level demons with his mind. yes, he was on demon blood at the time, but the point being that Sam had actually done things since the incidences you mentioned that might lead Sam to believe that maybe he might be stronger now than he was back then... And Bobby did bring up that Sam hadn't been able to defeat the demon before, but again, there was no better plan, this plan actually had a chance of saving everybody, and Death seemed to think that Sam had a chance, so at least one high powered, very intelligent being was implying that this was their best shot. 35 minutes ago, ILoveReading said: There are many times throughout the show were Sam came up with an idea and just did it and Dean was expected to be fully on board. I'm not thinking of any myself. Ruby wasn't one of them since the show proved Sam wrong there. This wasn't one either, since Dean wasn't on board until Death talked with him... and Death is pretty persuasive. Benny wasn't an example, because Sam was again proven wrong. Sam may have wanted Dean to go along sometimes, but I don't think he generally expected Dean to do so. His behavior, such as the lying in season 4, and his begging Dean to do things his way, just this one time, during the fight in "When the Levee Breaks," and his going behind Dean's back concerning Benny in season 8 says to me that Sam doesn't expect Dean to do things his (Sam's) way, never mind be fully on board. However, I can think of the reverse - Dean made the deal, and Sam was just expected to accept it. Dean told Sam not to use his powers, and Sam was just supposed to accept it. Dean lied to him about Gadreel, and Sam was just supposed to accept it... Dean took the mark of Cain, and Sam was just supposed to accept it and then not do anything to get rid of the mark of Cain, either. And in most cases, the show sided with Dean on all of those decisions. 55 minutes ago, ILoveReading said: Sam joining the The Brits is a perfect example. The Raid made Dean learn a lesson about respecting Mary's choices, yet in the end Sam demonstrates he clearly plans to disrespects Dean's. So I do think this is a double standard, the writers have. And the writers had to make Sam completely out of character and his reasoning make no sense in order for that to happen... and then of course the BMoL was evil, so the show again shows that Sam not respecting or choosing Dean's side means that he is wrong. 58 minutes ago, ILoveReading said: So I do think this is a double standard, the writers have. They've demonstrated it on more than one occasion. Do you have any other examples? To me the BMoL isn't really an example, because Sam was wrong about them, so the writers weren't taking Sam's side at all, in my opinion. 1 hour ago, ILoveReading said: Imagine if Dean did to Sam what Sam did by manipulating Dean? The show wouldn't have had Sam roll over and take it. I don't have to imagine - there was season 9. And not only was Sam expected to "roll over and take it," he was made to look like a complete asshat when he didn't until the end of the season when he admitted that Dean was right ("Mother's Little Helper"), and he did learn his lesson and "roll over" (Gadreel is a "real friend" and "I lied"). And lo and behold, Gadreel was "good" and Sam would do the same thing as Dean did... except because Sam was expected not to do the same thing because Dean said that Sam couldn't (even though Dean himself had done it with Sam and thought it was justified) and Sam did it anyway, Sam was slapped with starting an apocalypse. So Dean makes a questionable decision to save Sam - three times - and there are no earth-shaking ramifications (unless Sam screws up). Sam makes that questionable decision once - after being raked over the coals for not saving Dean previously - and causes an apocalypse. Again. To me that is the double standard the writers have (and in this case, I mean under Carver's reign - I had no problems previously). 2 Link to comment
catrox14 January 9, 2018 Share January 9, 2018 I was wrong it was technically in Two Minutes to Midnight that Castiel told him he'd have to use demon blood to strengthen his vessel, which was when Sam had the plan to jump into the meatsuit. From Two Minutes to Midnight Quote CASTIEL Michael has found another vessel. SAM What? CASTIEL It's your brother Adam. You must have considered it. SAM We were trying not to. CASTIEL Sam....If you say yes to Lucifer and then fail...This fight will happen. And the collateral... It'll be immense. There's also the demon blood. SAM What? What are you talking about? CASTIEL To take in Lucifer, it would be more than you've ever drunk. SAM But...Why? CASTIEL It strengthens the vessel. Keeps it from exploding. SAM But the guy he's in now -- CASTIEL He's drinking gallons. BOBBY And how is that not the worst plan you ever heard? The bold implies to me that Lucifer figured out after Hammer of the Gods that he needed demon blood to keep the Nicksuit intact since it was seen failing first in 5.10 and and again in 5.19 Hammer of the Gods. Thus it seems to me if Lucifer knew he had to use demon blood all along to maintain a vessel, wouldn't it have been easier for him to just keep gulping it in a vessel that's already said yes and then fight Michael? I mean why waste time trying to get Sam if it was really the demon blood that made the vessel stronger, not Sam's status as Lucifer's Chosen Vessel. IMO, given the demon blood thing wasn't revealed until the very end then it implies that being a Chosen Vessel didn't require extra juice at all. It would explain why Adam didn't need anything else. And even if it was needed I see no inconsistency with Adam not failing right away since Nick wasn't shown failing for 10 episodes. Adam was possessed in 5.18 and came to the fight in 5.22 which is like 3 episodes and maybe a couple of weeks in show. So then why would Lucifer's meatsuit need extra juice but Michael's doesn't? Some options: --Michael was not going to leave Dean in a drooling mess, which implies he had control over his power in the meatsuit. --If Michael could control the power, shouldn't Lucifer be able to do likewise? If so, that implies that Lucifer was intentionally burning out the meatsuit maybe as a form of torture? --Could it be that Lucifer can't control the power in his meatsuit? If so, that opens up a lot of of other questions, so I don't think that's the case myself. --Is it that Michael was not as powerful as Lucifer? That seems unlikely to me since he had the strength to cast Lucifer into Hell and I would think he would have fought pretty hard against being cast into Hell. Basically I think the choice to make Sam drink demon blood was for the 'OH NOES!!" factor but it forced them to make sure the Nicksuit had the same requirement to make it consistent. The problem is that it makes it inconsistent between Michael and his meatsuits. Link to comment
RulerofallIsurvey January 9, 2018 Share January 9, 2018 Quote The bold implies to me that Lucifer figured out after Hammer of the Gods that he needed demon blood to keep the Nicksuit intact since it was seen failing first in 5.10 and and again in 5.19 Hammer of the Gods. Since it's never specifically stated when Lucifer figured out that his vessel needed to drink demon blood to contain him, imo, other reasonable implications are that he figured it immediately, or knew it all along. We, as the audience, are not privy to that information. Quote Thus it seems to me if Lucifer knew he had to use demon blood all along to maintain a vessel, wouldn't it have been easier for him to just keep gulping it in a vessel that's already said yes and then fight Michael? One explanation could be that maybe his One True Chosen Vessel would require less demon blood, so that's less time he'd have to spend drinking and more time he could spend fighting Michael. Quote I mean why waste time trying to get Sam if it was really the demon blood that made the vessel stronger, not Sam's status as Lucifer's Chosen Vessel. That one's easy. Because: Prophecy. :) Same crazy, convoluted reason that Michael spent all that time and energy trying to convince Dean to be his vessel when he could have immediately resurrected Adam as soon as Lucifer was released from the cage and been done with it. Quote --Michael was not going to leave Dean in a drooling mess, which implies he had control over his power in the meatsuit. Not necessarily. Michael just had the power (and desire) to heal the meatsuit after he vacated it - like he had the power to bring Sam back to life. Raphael left his vessel a drooling mess because mainly, I think, he couldn't care less about the mud monkey. Besides, not assuring Dean that he wouldn't be left a drooling mess wouldn't exactly have been a ringing endorsement to allow him to use him as a vessel, now would it? So of course Michael had to say that - whether or not it was true. Quote --If Michael could control the power, shouldn't Lucifer be able to do likewise? If so, that implies that Lucifer was intentionally burning out the meatsuit maybe as a form of torture? I don't think so. I think different angels have different 'gifts', different strengths and weaknesses. For example, not all are 'warrior' angels like Cass - there are Cupids, etc. So, imo, there is no reason why Michael's and Lucifer's powers should be the same. And since it seems to me that Lucifer generally wants his meatsuits to like him (he keeps his promises to them - like healing Vince Vincente's sister when he didn't really have to after the fact) I don't think he was intentionally burning out Nick as a form of torture. Besides, I don't think he would want to do anything that would provoke Nick to revoke permission, especially since Sam had already said No to him a couple times and there was no guarantee that he would ever get to use Sam as a vessel. Quote --Is it that Michael was not as powerful as Lucifer? That seems unlikely to me since he had the strength to cast Lucifer into Hell and I would think he would have fought pretty hard against being cast into Hell. I don't think Michael cast Lucifer into the cage solely under his own power/will. God/Chuck directed him to do it. I can't remember if Michael also had help from other archangels, like Gabriel, but even if he didn't, since it was God's Will, I think that trumped whatever power Lucifer had. Quote The problem is that it makes it inconsistent between Michael and his meatsuits. I don't think the inconsistency is a problem. But I said that already, so I'll just point out here that you already offered an explanation yourself as to the 'inconsistency' with Adam, which also makes sense to me. 1 Link to comment
DittyDotDot January 9, 2018 Author Share January 9, 2018 20 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said: One explanation could be that maybe his One True Chosen Vessel would require less demon blood, so that's less time he'd have to spend drinking and more time he could spend fighting Michael. The whole demon-blood-needed-to-contain-Lucifer-while-none-was-needed-to-contain-Micheal story point was just plain nonsensical, but, yeah, it's not so much that both vessels required it, but the one true vessel would require much less. I get the point wasn't to give Lucifer a strong vessel as much as give Sam the extra strength to possibly survive and also be able to fight against Lucifer, but the thing is, if they were smart, they wouldn't have had Sam give Lucifer a stronger vessel. I think it would've been smarter to have the backup plan that if the rings didn't work, they should've done something to weaken Sam's vessel to ensure Lucifer would lose. Having Michael win wouldn't necessarily have turned out any better--judging by what happened in the AU--but they didn't know that at the time. Link to comment
catrox14 January 9, 2018 Share January 9, 2018 56 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said: I don't think Michael cast Lucifer into the cage solely under his own power/will. God/Chuck directed him to do it. I can't remember if Michael also had help from other archangels, like Gabriel, but even if he didn't, since it was God's Will, I think that trumped whatever power Lucifer had. In s10, Death said that Guck and the archangels put the Darkness on lockdown, but in all the occasions that Michael and Lucifer have spoken about him being cast into Hell, it's never come up that Michael had any help from anyone else. I can't see Gabriel doing it given he just didn't want to be in middle of the family drama. Didn't he bug out of House Guck by the time he ordered Michael to toss Lucifer into Hell? I can't remember. If you think there is subtext that implies that happened fair enough. I personally, don't think the text or subtext hinted that Michael needed help to do it. Guck could have just done it himself if it required more physical strength than Michael had. That said, Guck is a manipulative POS so I guess that could be considered Guck's Will which isn't the same as the physical capability of Michael throwing him in Hell. There could have been a fight between Michael and Lucifer then. Or it could have just been that Michael, being the eldest and running Heaven and being the biggest badass in Heaven at that the time of Lucifer's fall, that he just flung Lucifer into a portal all in one fell swoop. Or maybe Lucifer just decided, fine, and he walked calmly into Hell being escorted by Michael knowing he was going to start turning human souls into demons all along. So he was like "I'll go quietly". So there was no fight at all. That actually kind of works for me as a head canon. That Lucifer WANTED to be cast into Hell, so he could destroy humanity Now after Lucifer began making demons out of the humans that were in Hell, I think Michael probably had help putting him in the Cage although for some reason I thought Ghuck himself, put Lucifer into the Cage, which he ordered constructed to his specs. None of which really answers at all why Michael didn't need to juice up and Lucifer did. I totally agree with those who think it would have been smarter for Sam to keep Lucifer weaker so that he could jump in the pit. It's still hilarious to me, and by hilarious, I mean stupid and BS that the only person who actually was hit by Lucifer was Dean. . Yes, he killed Bobby and Castiel by snapping his fingers and he could have done the same to Dean, so IMO the only reason he didn't was because he just wanted to beat the shit out of Dean using Sam's body which didn't even martyr Dean either. I think it would have been an amazing choice to have had Samifer actually kill Dean with a final blow, just as he spies the stupid toy soldier. And it's really Dean's death that snaps him out of Lucifer's control. Then he has to still jump in the cage alone looking at Dean and Bobby's dead bodies and facing Michael alone in the end without Dean alive to support him. Super tragic for Sam to think Dean was killed anyway. And then Cas comes back, resurrects Dean and Bobby. Sam gets out of the cage thinking Dean is dead and wants to plot a way to kill Lucifer for killing Dean only to find that wait Dean is alive. This is my new headcanon ending. LOL 1 Link to comment
RulerofallIsurvey January 10, 2018 Share January 10, 2018 (edited) Quote I think it would have been an amazing choice to have had Samifer actually kill Dean with a final blow, just as he spies the stupid toy soldier. And it's really Dean's death that snaps him out of Lucifer's control. Then he has to still jump in the cage alone looking at Dean and Bobby's dead bodies and facing Michael alone in the end without Dean alive to support him. Super tragic for Sam to think Dean was killed anyway. And then Cas comes back, resurrects Dean and Bobby. Sam gets out of the cage thinking Dean is dead and wants to plot a way to kill Lucifer for killing Dean only to find that wait Dean is alive. I, for one, am really Super glad that this didn't happen. It seems to me there are enough Sam-haters without him having actually killed Dean. I can imagine what the fallout would have been from this scenario. No, thank you kindly. Edited January 10, 2018 by RulerofallIsurvey meant to use a quote box not spoiler tag 4 Link to comment
Pondlass1 January 10, 2018 Share January 10, 2018 On 1/8/2018 at 3:57 PM, ILoveReading said: This might be more unpopular opinion but good thing the sun was shining that day, because Sam failed otherwsie. This is a brilliant point @ILoveReading !!! 2 Link to comment
catrox14 January 10, 2018 Share January 10, 2018 To be clear, in case it wasn't, it's not Sam that would have killed Dean. It was Lucifer. I don't think anyone has ever blamed Sam for Lucifer killing Bobby or Castiel. Dean, Bobby, and Castiel agreed to support Sam's idea and knew it was a risk to take on Lucifer in the first place. His whole reason for going was that he wasn't going to let Sam die alone. The irony of Dean being there so Sam wouldn't have to die alone, but dying anyway leaving Sam to die alone and then Sam's love for Dean and his death being the catalyst for him to overcome Lucifer IMO would have been a lot better than Sam's memories being triggered by a stupid toy soldier that never had any value in the entire history of the show before that moment. Not that I recall and the flashback in the beginning with the car is not nearly enough to think Sam had all this love for Dean tied up in a toy soldier they used to play with. I finally realized just now why Swan Song bugs. It's like it was as a completely stand alone work with elements out of nowhere that had little setup. Not even good used of Chekhov's anything really. The toy soldier, the heretofore unknown need of the vessel to guzzle demon blood for strength; Michael and Lucifer never actually fighting at all except for a mild argument. The only part I bought was Dean going there to make sure Sam didn't die alone since he couldn't be in the battle itself and even that I just RME that Dean was just going to never hit Lucifer back at all. I guess if he thought him hitting Lucifer would cause Lucifer to kill Sam inside, maybe, but that wouldn't have done Lucifer any good really since he was waiting to fight Michael anyway since he was going to come back. And I guess Dean was going to live to make Sam's sacrifice matter as though saving the world wasn't enough. IMO, Lucifer beat up Dean solely for the ironic tragedy of Sam's body being used by Lucifer to pummel Dean nearly to death. And for Dean to be a half martyr I guess. To me, if they were going for ironic tragedy then go all in and let Dean's death and Sam's love for Dean be the thing that pushed Sam to fight back. I also think for Sam's character development, seeing Dean die and having to still make a choice to get Lucifer into the cage, IMO would have shown even more of Sam's determination to make things right. It would have been easy for Sam to just say fuck it and let Lucifer destroy the world upon seeing Dean die. So my headcanon ending for Swan Song is not Sam or Dean negative or positive. Just tragically ironic. Nothing for Sam haters to get bent about IMO. Link to comment
gonzosgirrl January 10, 2018 Share January 10, 2018 (edited) As you plotted it, @catrox14, I wouldn't have blamed Sam, because we wouldn't then have had the knowledge that spying the little plastic soldier was what Sam needed to tip him over the edge and stop beating his brother to death. Simply beating him half to death (or shooting him, as in Asylum and BUABS) wasn't enough for Sam to overcome spirit influence or demon possession, so we would not have assumed anything could stop him while possessed by Lucifer himself. I always found it interesting that they had both John and Bobby overcome demon possession to save Dean's life, but not Sam. And with John, it was Azazel himself, not stunt-demon #3 like Bobby. It's too bad they have never addressed this in canon. ETA: I've said it before and I'll say it again: I didn't have any problem with Swan Song when I first watched, and I honestly still don't. I'll admit that after my binge-watch, when I finally sought out online fandom to talk about it, I understood the issues that Dean fans had/have. I did feel disappointed that we never got to see Michael/Dean (and still feel that way), but I didn't hate what we did get. I still believe that if it had ended at 5x22, I would have felt I was told a complete and satisfying story (if you don't watch the last 30 seconds or so). Edited January 10, 2018 by gonzosgirrl 1 Link to comment
companionenvy January 10, 2018 Share January 10, 2018 12 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said: I always found it interesting that they had both John and Bobby overcome demon possession to save Dean's life, but not Sam. And with John, it was Azazel himself, not stunt-demon #3 like Bobby. It's too bad they have never addressed this in canon. Azazel isn't stunt demon #3, but he is still weaker than Lucifer. And while it needed a boost from the army man, Sam did ultimately stop Lucifer from killing Dean. Given that Cas, who is an actual angel, had trouble resisting Lucifer when he was Casifer, I think Sam's entitled to the assist. Sam is not the only character who has very seriously hurt a loved one under some sort of possession of supernatural influence. 3 Link to comment
gonzosgirrl January 10, 2018 Share January 10, 2018 (edited) 25 minutes ago, companionenvy said: Azazel isn't stunt demon #3, but he is still weaker than Lucifer. And while it needed a boost from the army man, Sam did ultimately stop Lucifer from killing Dean. Given that Cas, who is an actual angel, had trouble resisting Lucifer when he was Casifer, I think Sam's entitled to the assist. Sam is not the only character who has very seriously hurt a loved one under some sort of possession of supernatural influence. I am only talking about Sam and Dean though, and through S5. And I never expected Sam to be able to resist Lucifer. He did though. Clarification: Dean was able to get through to both John and Bobby and stop them killing him. He was never able to get through to Sam. Edited January 10, 2018 by gonzosgirrl 2 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 January 10, 2018 Share January 10, 2018 1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said: I am only talking about Sam and Dean though, and through S5. And I never expected Sam to be able to resist Lucifer. In my head canon, Sam didn't really resist Lucifer. Lucifer had a mental blow that made him get shunted to the side - similar to how the demon got shunted to the background in Julia when the stress of giving birth to Jesse somehow shut the demon out of control in "I Believe the Children." I have watched the "Swan Song" scene many times, and I still think that it is Lucifer who saw the green army man and then had the reaction to Sam's memories of Dean and Sam together through the years - both good times and rough. In my opinion, this pissed Lucifer off, because Dean was still there, supporting Sam, but his brother, Michael... wasn't. It was a wound to his pride and ego. He could kill Dean, but it wouldn't matter. He couldn't change the fact that he'd never have the bond with Michael now that Sam and Dean had/have. Lucifer knew because he'd tried - (paraphrase) "let's just walk off the playing field and ignore what Dad said/ordered." I could see it in the way that Jared played it... the shift from Lucifer seeing the army man, getting pelted with Sam's memories, and the anger (there's a sneer in Jared's eyes and nose crinkle) and then indignant resignation that followed as he realized the truth. He could kill Dean all he waned, but it wouldn't change a damn thing for him (Lucifer) and it wouldn't make Dean love Sam any less, like Michael apparently loved him less now. And Sam - based on the memories - wasn't going to forget Dean and like Lucifer better either, and he (Lucifer) couldn't change that no matter what he did. So huge blow to Lucifer's ego - he got shunted... and much like the demon with Julia***, he couldn't get it back before Sam acted and took control. And then we got Jared's surprise at being able to take over, like he'd been fighting, but something changed that now made it possible for him to take control. For me, that something was the wound to Lucifer's (considerable) ego that suddenly made him vulnerable. Now it wasn't part of the show then, but based on the "kicking out" stuff we got later on with Gadreel, this kind of makes sense. Even though all of that kicking out stuff Carver came up with was, in my opinion, just for the angst (to make sure there would be lying and "teh drama." But if there can be situations where an angel loses control of a host, and stressful or emotional situations can effect a similar affect even in demons - as we saw in "I Believe the Children..." then to me, the scenario entirely makes sense. More sense anyway than a less powerful Sam - it had been a while since Sam had drunk the demon blood - now all of a sudden overcoming Lucifer when he hadn't been able to previously. For me, that something happening to Lucifer that allowed Sam the opportunity makes more sense, and for me is supported by what I saw in this episode with Lucifer wanting Michael and him to reconcile (and being rejected) and what previous episodes had hinted at (with the demon and Julia). I also realize that this is only my theory of what happened though, so make of that what you will. *** As an interesting aside, though it hasn't been addressed, looking at it this way, it actually makes sense to me that demons would want to "ride" their hosts hard to kill them. It would make it easier for them to keep control and not have to worry that there might be a situation that might get them shunted to the side and the host take over. If the host was dead or near death, the host wouldn't be able to fight against a demon in a compromised position. And would likely also be much less annoying for the demon, because they'd be the only consciousness in the body. On 1/8/2018 at 3:57 PM, ILoveReading said: This might be more unpopular opinion but good thing the sun was shining that day, because Sam failed otherwsie. Considering my take on events that I described above, I actually agree with you in a way, which is why I often think it's funny when I sometimes see claims that Sam was somehow being portrayed here as "Super Sam." For me, if that was the case, Sam would've immediately defeated Lucifer and jumped in the cage, and the rest of the episode would've dealt with the problem of what to do with a pissed off Michael with maybe a heroically tragic scene or two of Sam in the cage. However I think there was at least one thing that Sam did and that was finish the job. When faced with the now all too real situation that in order to finish it, he had to condemn himself to hell, Sam did it. It's one thing to say he's going to do something like that, but another to actually jump after seeing the door to the pit open and waiting for him, knowing full well what was going to happen to him. So despite Sam's failures - and I admit he had quite a few - when it came down to it, he made the extremely difficult and terrifying choice to go through with it, so I do give Sam a lot of credit for that. 4 Link to comment
RulerofallIsurvey January 11, 2018 Share January 11, 2018 (edited) I don't believe for one fraction of a nano-second that Sam wouldn't have been blamed by a whole lot of folks for killing Dean while Lucifer was in possession of his meatsuit, if that had happened. Just like Sam is routinely blamed for beating Dean while Lucifer was in possession of his meatsuit. Or how Sam is blamed for shooting Dean while possessed by a ghost. I'm not saying (and never did) that everyone would blame Sam - just as not everyone blames Sam now for beating Dean, or shooting him in the aforementioned circumstance. I do think think the negative reaction to Sam as a character would have been infinitely worse. Again: No, but thanks anyway. Edited January 11, 2018 by RulerofallIsurvey 6 Link to comment
RulerofallIsurvey January 19, 2018 Share January 19, 2018 Bringing this here, to be on the safe side. Quote I'm pretty sure Dean was apologizing for ALL OF IT including Jack's role with starting the mess by going to find Kaia in the first place, for Sam not bothering to intervene on her behalf when he could have, and for him pulling a gun on her. They all 3 are guilty of coercing Kaia into going with them in the car. Dean doesn't need to apologize for Sam not intervening, because IMO Sam has nothing for which he needs to apologize in that scene. What? Because he didn't step between Kaia and his crazed with grief brother holding a loaded weapon? Hey, maybe Sam's got some smarts after all! Sam did try to say something to Dean, if I recall, but Dean wasn't listening. That is some seriously creative blame shifting there. So it's Sam and Jack's fault, or they are at least as equally at fault as the guy actually holding the loaded weapon, that Dean pulled a gun on Kaia and made her get in the car? Nah, that ain't right. YMMV. 5 Link to comment
catrox14 January 19, 2018 Share January 19, 2018 41 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said: Bringing this here, to be on the safe side. Dean doesn't need to apologize for Sam not intervening, because IMO Sam has nothing for which he needs to apologize in that scene. What? Because he didn't step between Kaia and his crazed with grief brother holding a loaded weapon? Hey, maybe Sam's got some smarts after all! Sam did try to say something to Dean, if I recall, but Dean wasn't listening. That is some seriously creative blame shifting there. So it's Sam and Jack's fault, or they are at least as equally at fault as the guy actually holding the loaded weapon, that Dean pulled a gun on Kaia and made her get in the car? Nah, that ain't right. YMMV. Nope. I'm not blame shifting. Blame shifting requires that I remove the responsibility from Dean and put it on Sam. I did nothing of the sort. If that's how you are interpreting my comment, then you've misinterpreted or made an assumption. I did not absolve Dean. I am however blame sharing and rightfully so. That entire scene was garbage for Dean and Sam. There is no way that Dean would ever have pulled a gun on teenager. It was OOC behavior from the start and sadly no one wants to address that fact and since it is onscreen it's canon. So nothing I said actually alters that point and nor was that my intention with my comment which had to do with Dean's apology to Kaia being a general apology for the whole mess that he didn't make by himself. The moment Sam saw Dean pull out a gun, Sam could have taken his out and trained it on Dean telling him to back down. Or he could have just punched Dean and taken it away. Dean wasn't acting crazed or out of control when he first took it out and Sam saw him do it. It never had to get to the point where Dean put it to her head. Sam saw him take it out and hold it to his waist and in that moment instead of Sam acting all weird and stuttery, which he NEVER does, he could have gotten between Kaia and Dean and just told Dean to put the gun away. It's completely OOC for Sam to stand around stammering and stuttering and acting like he's never dealt with this kind of situation before. When Dean was at his absolute worst with the Mark of Cain, Sam whilst tied up talked Dean down from the killing high. And then later on he literally jumped on Dean to get the First Blade away from him before Cas got involved. He captured demon!Dean singlehandedly and nearly cured him alone until demon dean broke out and Cas helped later. Even regular Dean has punched Sam and Sam stood right back up in his face. But no, in The Bad Place, Sam is just so in shock that he can't figure out how to intercede? Give me a break. That was terrible OOC writing for Sam as well. LOL TERRIBLE I can even make a reasonable argument that Sam was maybe kind of okay with Dean doing that because he wanted that Rift opened just as much as Dean. He just let Dean do the dirty work in a way. So for one of the first times in their lives, Sam was just so in SHOCK that he couldn't function or maybe he wasn't really all that concerned that Dean would actually use it, so he didn't intercede. Aside from him not interceding on Kaia's behalf, Jack wouldn't have been trying to open a rift int he first place if Sam hadn't been trying to get him to do it when he was vulnerable and learning as a "newborn". Sam asked Jack to do that from the get go after he was born. He was pushing Jack to move a pencil. Maybe if Sam never mentioned wanting that help, Jack doesn't seek out a dreamwalker at all and doesn't find Kaia. Instead of Jack staying with his new family, even after Dean had come around to be okay with Jack, Jack left because he though he was going to hurt them. He didn't leave because of Dean, he left because he killed someone and thought he would hurt them too. So now, he's off doing his own thing, finding Kaia and not really accepting that she didn't want to help him. He was nice about it but he was also coercing her. And then eventually showed her a vision that got her to help. Why didn't he show her that BEFORE Dean put the gun to her head. Give me a break, show! Why didn't Jack use his time stopping mojo thing on Dean when he saw Dean take out the gun? Was Jack really afraid of Dean LOL? I highly doubt it. They had the goal to get the rift open to save Mary. It was all three of their goals to get that accomplished. Jack used persuasion and visions, Dean used a gun and Sam...well, I'm not sure what he was supposed to be doing there other than look confused. That fact of the matter is that all three of them are why Kaia was in that predicament in the first place. That's my point. And that's why I say that Dean was apologizing for all of it. For all of them. Because it took all three of them to put her in that situation. Link to comment
RulerofallIsurvey January 19, 2018 Share January 19, 2018 Quote I did not absolve Dean. I am however blame sharing and rightfully so. Fine, it's blame sharing. But I disagree on the rightfully so. 4 Link to comment
catrox14 January 19, 2018 Share January 19, 2018 11 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said: Fine, it's blame sharing. But I disagree on the rightfully so. Well, Sam and Jack certainly aren't blameless here. I think he was including his poor behavior in that situation and for all of them getting her into their fight with Lucifer. That's what they all did to her, not just Dean. 1 Link to comment
SueB January 26, 2018 Share January 26, 2018 Interesting notes from Mark Sheppard's Meet and Greet (not sure what convention but had to be in 2017) at this tumblr; https://spunsugarj2fantasy.tumblr.com/post/170008470246/frozen-delight-13x10-wayward-sisters-dear Definitely sounds like Mark was not happy with his exit. I don't blame him. 3 Link to comment
gonzosgirrl January 27, 2018 Share January 27, 2018 3 hours ago, SueB said: Interesting notes from Mark Sheppard's Meet and Greet (not sure what convention but had to be in 2017) at this tumblr; https://spunsugarj2fantasy.tumblr.com/post/170008470246/frozen-delight-13x10-wayward-sisters-dear Definitely sounds like Mark was not happy with his exit. I don't blame him. Wow, if that is all true, I have even less respect for Dabb and Singer than I already did. 4 Link to comment
catrox14 January 27, 2018 Share January 27, 2018 19 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said: Wow, if that is all true, I have even less respect for Dabb and Singer than I already did. Huh. That seems like a lot for Mark to share in a m&g that anyone could post about. Would he really tell that much BTS drama? Link to comment
gonzosgirrl January 27, 2018 Share January 27, 2018 1 minute ago, catrox14 said: Huh. That seems like a lot for Mark to share in a m&g that anyone could post about. Would he really tell that much BTS drama? Yeah, emphasis on the if. It does have plausibility, but agreed - it doesn't seem like things Mark would share with fans, private M&G or not. Link to comment
catrox14 January 27, 2018 Share January 27, 2018 3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said: Yeah, emphasis on the if. It does have plausibility, but agreed - it doesn't seem like things Mark would share with fans, private M&G or not. It seems like a lot of extrapolation and theorizing. I mean it might be 100% true but it seems like something risky to tell at a M&G unless he is just taking a salt and burn tactic with Dabb and Singer. Really weird. Link to comment
AwesomO4000 January 29, 2018 Share January 29, 2018 10 minutes ago, catrox14 said: Sam, Dean and Cas all suffer for plot under Dabb IMO. It's all get the pieces where they want them and fuck characterization. I pers I don't disagree entirely, especially in plot of the week ways. However, for me - and you don't have to agree - Sam generally gets the "big" plotonium stuff... like his saying "yes" to the British Men of Letters even though to me that made no sense and now his all-of-a-sudden depression. And for me this isn't too much different than Carver with the abandoning Kevin plot induced stuff and Sam not doing his usual forgiveness thing in season 9 in order to keep the Sam vs Dean drama going in that season. The brother who generally ends up looking like a jerk for plot purposes is usually Sam. Just my opinion and yours may vary. 1 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 January 29, 2018 Share January 29, 2018 (edited) Brought over from the spoilers' bitterness thread (no spoilers): 5 hours ago, ILoveReading said: I'd really like a reverse grief counselor ep for Sam. For me, "Sam, Interrupted" was a bit like that. Quote Since IMO, the writers are very lazy and are just copying and pasting, I feel like the back half is going to be exactly like s8. So I don't think you're going to have to worry about Sam getting a win. I figure it will be Sam getting a hero quest while Dean makes dinner. I don't remember Sam getting a win in the second half of season 8 myself. I remember it being pretty much a failed exercise in futility with a side of causing more problems (which Dean would later fix). And why would it be a repeat of season 8 rather than season 9 where Dean was more the hero, and Sam would have been lucky to make dinner? The season 8 "Dean supports Sam" - on a quest which failed - is 4 seasons behind Dean killing Abbadon and helping to defeat Metatron (season9), Dean more than often successfully resisting the mark of Cain, including defeating Cain and killing Death (season 10), Dean saving the world from Amara (season 11), and Dean saving Mary (season 12). Season 12 wasn't the highlight of those seasons, but it was no - in my opinion - season 8 or 9 for Sam. And considering that I really, really dilike season 8 - as in for me it is at the bottom of the barrel in terms of SPN seasons for me - I'm not sure why I would look forward to a "hero quest" for Sam where he basically is a wreck and needs Dean to help him through and then when push comes to shove... he fails. I'm not sure why the second half of season 8 is held up so often as a positive thing for Sam. I thought it was one of the worst story arcs Sam was given (behind Amelia and whatever that arc in the second half of season 9 was supposed to be - that was awful). Dean didn't need Sam's help in season 9 to kill Abaddon or help defeat Metatron. And he did it with superpowers and as the only one who could accomplish the task. Isn't that just as much a hero's quest? Well except that Dean was actually successful and Sam would've been lucky to have any role at all - even support - in that particular quest. So for me, suggesting that Sam mght look forward to a potential "hero quest" where he needs Dean to even make it to the end and he basically fails isn't exactly encouraging. Your miles may vary. And in my opinion, it might be nice for Sam to get a major win again. It's been probably since the end of season 5 that Sam has had one onscreen... about 7 seasons ago. And about 5 seasons since one in general (the end of season 7 where Sam helped Kevin stop the tainted food from being distributed.) 5 hours ago, ahrtee said: But you'll have to wait 12 years for the catharsis (and probably the same number of years for any "backstory" or "explanation" (other than it's all being John's fault) :) or any kind of win. It depends on what you consider catharsis. I thought Dean did get a few along the way: such as when he beat up the Impala, the scene at the end of "Dream a Little Dream of Me" and a few with Castiel (season 6, 7, and 8.) plus others like that. And in general, there is backstory for Dean's emotional issues all throughout the series, in my opinion. When Dean lost hope in season 5, I knew exactly why he did... it was all laid out over all of season 4 and 5. When he was depressed in season 7, again that was all laid out based on what happened with Castiel in season 6, Sam getting broken, and Bobby dying. Same with season 9. That isn't the same for me as Sam now supposedly being all doom and gloom where my reaction was basically "huh, when did this happen?" As for wins, Dean's had a bunch in the last few years. And they are generally the thing he needs to decided it's worth it to keep going. Before Castiel this season, Dean just had a huge win at the end of season 11, and at the end of season 9 and 7 before that. You could've also called killing Death and saving Sam a win, too, if it weren't for Sam screwing it all up... but that wasn't really Dean's doing per se. Quote As for "Advanced Thanatology"--wasn't that pretty much all the times Sam was told he's special? I guess it depends on who is telling Sam that he is special. I mean sure, Sam is told that he is special by demons, Lucifer, and beings trying to manipulate him: basically evil. Angels told him that he was pretty much crap and only being allowed to stay as long as he wasn't a problem and could be incinerated on a whim. Even good angel Joshua pretty much told Sam that he was being allowed in heaven due to a technicality and implied he didn't really deserve it. Sam's friend angel offhandedly called him an abomination. I mean sure that was amusing, but not exactly what I'd call praise or a ringing endorsement. Castiel has had his doubt points about Dean, but despite knowing about Dean's stint in hell, has generally told Dean what a great person he (Dean) is. Death did say that Sam was the one who could stop the apocalypse... but not to Sam's face, and Dean didn't exactly share. Chuck - if he always was God (which in my head canon, I like to think he wasn't) pretty much set Sam up for failure in "Monster At the End..." and pretty much dismissed him later on and generally gave Sam a dressing down. I'm just glad Sam wasn't there to hear Chuck put the blame of everything on him. Meanwhile Dean was praised to his face by Chuck and Sam got a " *pause* ... and Sam" inclusion. For me, Sully was really one of the first good creatures who unreservedly praised Sam, and I loved that about that episode. So I'm not saying that Sam doesn't sometimes get praised. I'm saying that both brothers get praised and to imply that "Advanced Thanatology" is the only episode where Dean has been praised, in my opinion, is inaccurate. (And I'm not counting where the brothers praise each other. As an aside, I saw one of my favorite episodes of that this afternoon with "About a Boy." Sam (paraphrase)" "You saved me and you saved Tina... and pulled a Dean Winchester. Thank you." (Too bad Adam Glass generally isn't that kind to Sam or I would've liked more of his episodes.) Edited January 29, 2018 by AwesomO4000 1 Link to comment
gonzosgirrl January 29, 2018 Share January 29, 2018 How was getting murdered and coming back a demon (aka the end of season 9) a win for Dean? Seems kinda like the biggest loss possible. First, he failed to kill Metatron, then he became the thing he hated most. Genuinely confused here. 29 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said: Before Castiel this season, Dean just had a huge win at the end of season 11, and at the end of season 9 and 7 before that. 5 Link to comment
catrox14 January 29, 2018 Share January 29, 2018 2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said: How was getting murdered and coming back a demon (aka the end of season 9) a win for Dean? Seems kinda like the biggest loss possible. First, he failed to kill Metatron, then he became the thing he hated most. Genuinely confused here. Yeah that always seemed like a clear punishment for allowing Gadreel to possess Sam. Like here, follow Crowley because you didn't respect your brother's agency, take on this mark without asking questions, become Killy McStabberson along the way and be turned into a demon because he made a terrible decision. I don't see the win here either. Like at all. I mean killing Abaddon only caused his bloodlust to ramp up. 6 Link to comment
gonzosgirrl January 29, 2018 Share January 29, 2018 1 hour ago, catrox14 said: Yeah that always seemed like a clear punishment for allowing Gadreel to possess Sam. Like here, follow Crowley because you didn't respect your brother's agency, take on this mark without asking questions, become Killy McStabberson along the way and be turned into a demon because he made a terrible decision. I don't see the win here either. Like at all. I mean killing Abaddon only caused his bloodlust to ramp up. I do consider killing Abaddon a win - that was the whole reason he took on the Mark, and powered up or not, it was a badass move and a big kill for him. But he ended the arc (and the season) first beaten down, then killed by Metatron. I'd be hard pressed to describe that as any sort of a win. 1 Link to comment
catrox14 January 29, 2018 Share January 29, 2018 11 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said: I do consider killing Abaddon a win - that was the whole reason he took on the Mark, and powered up or not, it was a badass move and a big kill for him. But he ended the arc (and the season) first beaten down, then killed by Metatron. I'd be hard pressed to describe that as any sort of a win. I agree that killing Abaddon was a win and also a loss given how it changed him. And I agree with you about Metatron. Link to comment
ahrtee January 29, 2018 Share January 29, 2018 Everything is in the eye of the beholder, er, fan. For every point listed above (on both sides) someone can list the absolute opposing viewpoint, and no amount of repetition (even bringing in examples to prove your point) is going to convince the other side that they're wrong. It's a difference of perception and opinion, and in that case neither side is wrong. So if we can get past trying to prove our points over and over, we can have some interesting discussions explaining our different perspectives and insights. At least, that's what I always wanted to get from this site. There's a very old joke about two men in a restaurant frequented by old vaudeville comics. Every so often one of the old men would call out a number, and all the others would burst into laughter. The newbie, listening to this in confusion, asked his friend what was going on. "They have been working the same jobs for so long, they know all the jokes, so they've just numbered them. That way, they don't have to repeat the whole story--just call out the number and everyone knows exactly what the punchline will be." The joke went on from there, but that's the point I'm trying to make here. Maybe we should just number the Sam/Dean/Cas complaints: so #1 would be "Sam has no purpose in this story." #2 would be ditto for Dean, #3 for Cas. #4 could be Sam is *always* wrong (or will always turn out to be wrong). #5--Dean is always sidelined, either as a doormat or cheerleader. #6--Cas hasn't even been mentioned. Then we have "Dean is obnoxious/overbearing," "Sam is arrogant/selfish," "Cas is useless." There are about another dozen complaints that are repeated for pretty much every episode, such as who gets the "win," who gets the BDH moment, who is tied up or knocked out and has to be rescued. So maybe if we just number 'em and get that part out of the way first, without having to explain in great detail (which only causes the other side to refute it, usually point by point), we can get into a discussion of an episode without all the baggage of "always" and "never." Because, TBH, there *is* no "always" or "never" here, just the perception which is skewed by how insulted we feel on behalf of our favorites. All the characters have, at different times, been equally ignored/praised/made to look like a fool. Sorry--I'm a little cranky today. Consider this whole post in //sarcasm// font, and if it's in the wrong place (or altogether out of line) let me know and I'll delete. Or maybe we should get together and come up with a numbered list of common complaints. Any takers? 5 Link to comment
DeeDee79 January 29, 2018 Share January 29, 2018 3 minutes ago, ahrtee said: Everything is in the eye of the beholder, er, fan. For every point listed above (on both sides) someone can list the absolute opposing viewpoint, and no amount of repetition (even bringing in examples to prove your point) is going to convince the other side that they're wrong. It's a difference of perception and opinion, and in that case neither side is wrong. So if we can get past trying to prove our points over and over, we can have some interesting discussions explaining our different perspectives and insights. At least, that's what I always wanted to get from this site. There's a very old joke about two men in a restaurant frequented by old vaudeville comics. Every so often one of the old men would call out a number, and all the others would burst into laughter. The newbie, listening to this in confusion, asked his friend what was going on. "They have been working the same jobs for so long, they know all the jokes, so they've just numbered them. That way, they don't have to repeat the whole story--just call out the number and everyone knows exactly what the punchline will be." The joke went on from there, but that's the point I'm trying to make here. Maybe we should just number the Sam/Dean/Cas complaints: so #1 would be "Sam has no purpose in this story." #2 would be ditto for Dean, #3 for Cas. #4 could be Sam is *always* wrong (or will always turn out to be wrong). #5--Dean is always sidelined, either as a doormat or cheerleader. #6--Cas hasn't even been mentioned. Then we have "Dean is obnoxious/overbearing," "Sam is arrogant/selfish," "Cas is useless." There are about another dozen complaints that are repeated for pretty much every episode, such as who gets the "win," who gets the BDH moment, who is tied up or knocked out and has to be rescued. So maybe if we just number 'em and get that part out of the way first, without having to explain in great detail (which only causes the other side to refute it, usually point by point), we can get into a discussion of an episode without all the baggage of "always" and "never." Because, TBH, there *is* no "always" or "never" here, just the perception which is skewed by how insulted we feel on behalf of our favorites. All the characters have, at different times, been equally ignored/praised/made to look like a fool. Sorry--I'm a little cranky today. Consider this whole post in //sarcasm// font, and if it's in the wrong place (or altogether out of line) let me know and I'll delete. Or maybe we should get together and come up with a numbered list of common complaints. Any takers? I like this idea! :) 1 Link to comment
Res January 29, 2018 Share January 29, 2018 (edited) 10 minutes ago, ahrtee said: Everything is in the eye of the beholder, er, fan. For every point listed above (on both sides) someone can list the absolute opposing viewpoint, and no amount of repetition (even bringing in examples to prove your point) is going to convince the other side that they're wrong. It's a difference of perception and opinion, and in that case neither side is wrong. So if we can get past trying to prove our points over and over, we can have some interesting discussions explaining our different perspectives and insights. At least, that's what I always wanted to get from this site. There's a very old joke about two men in a restaurant frequented by old vaudeville comics. Every so often one of the old men would call out a number, and all the others would burst into laughter. The newbie, listening to this in confusion, asked his friend what was going on. "They have been working the same jobs for so long, they know all the jokes, so they've just numbered them. That way, they don't have to repeat the whole story--just call out the number and everyone knows exactly what the punchline will be." The joke went on from there, but that's the point I'm trying to make here. Maybe we should just number the Sam/Dean/Cas complaints: so #1 would be "Sam has no purpose in this story." #2 would be ditto for Dean, #3 for Cas. #4 could be Sam is *always* wrong (or will always turn out to be wrong). #5--Dean is always sidelined, either as a doormat or cheerleader. #6--Cas hasn't even been mentioned. Then we have "Dean is obnoxious/overbearing," "Sam is arrogant/selfish," "Cas is useless." There are about another dozen complaints that are repeated for pretty much every episode, such as who gets the "win," who gets the BDH moment, who is tied up or knocked out and has to be rescued. So maybe if we just number 'em and get that part out of the way first, without having to explain in great detail (which only causes the other side to refute it, usually point by point), we can get into a discussion of an episode without all the baggage of "always" and "never." Because, TBH, there *is* no "always" or "never" here, just the perception which is skewed by how insulted we feel on behalf of our favorites. All the characters have, at different times, been equally ignored/praised/made to look like a fool. Sorry--I'm a little cranky today. Consider this whole post in //sarcasm// font, and if it's in the wrong place (or altogether out of line) let me know and I'll delete. Or maybe we should get together and come up with a numbered list of common complaints. Any takers? I'm sorry but I'm a bit confused. My house flooded, my daughter's about to drop a baby, and I had to ship my son who I miss over to live with his dad because there is no room with everything all torn up. I'm supporting both working 2 jobs (because teacher's don't get paid much) and I'm broke until I can get some repair money from ins. so excuse me if I'm wrong. I'm not sleeping much at the moment. But I thought this was the exact thing that this thread was supposed to "discuss" (who you think got shafted and why, etc.) while the episode thread was for discussion of the episode. ETA: Not saying that I disagree with the numbers, although I honestly probably won't remember what they are. I'm game if everyone wants to do it. Edited January 29, 2018 by Res Clarification: STill out of it; Story of my life. Link to comment
AwesomO4000 January 29, 2018 Share January 29, 2018 (edited) 56 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said: But he ended the arc (and the season) first beaten down, then killed by Metatron. I'd be hard pressed to describe that as any sort of a win. I'll give it a shot from my perspective, though I realize that miles vary. For me, Dean died in the service of distracting Metatron. If Metatron hadn't been fighting with Dean, it's unlikely that Castiel would've been able to get into his office and smash the tablet, taking away Metatron's power, or get the speaker working so that Metatron's evil plan was exposed. Unless I'm remembering wrongly (and I could be) that was the plan: that Sam and/or Dean would be the distraction / front on earth while Castiel and Gadreel tricked their way into heaven and took care of things on that front, and Dean was the one with the blade and the ability to use it to keep Metatron distracted - as Gadreel said: Dean was the nuclear bomb. It may not have been officially in the plan that Dean die in the attempt, though it's likely that it was in Dean's head that that was a possibility, but the main gist of the plan was that Sam and/or Dean go fight Metatron on that front while Castiel took care of things in heaven. (That was Sam's plan anyway) And except for that fact that Dean died while distracting Metatron, he still achieved what he was supposed to do. Metatron was defeated. The good guys won. Sam died while defeating Lucifer and ended up becoming a soulless psychopath, but that didn't negate the fact that the end of "Swan Song" was a win. How Metatron was defeated might've even been better than him getting killed - which considering his godlike powers was a longshot anyway - because not only was he depowered, but he was exposed. Had he been killed by human Dean, his followers could have claimed him as a martyr to the cause (like Tessa). That's not a perfect win, maybe, but in my opinion: bad guy defeated and humanity saved from him = win. And Dean was a key part of that win. But I understand that miles vary. 2 hours ago, catrox14 said: Yeah that always seemed like a clear punishment for allowing Gadreel to possess Sam. Like here, follow Crowley because you didn't respect your brother's agency, take on this mark without asking questions, become Killy McStabberson along the way and be turned into a demon because he made a terrible decision. I guess to me it depends on degree. I personally didn't see what happened to Dean as a punishment by the narrative so much, because it turned out that Dean was right about almost everything. In my opinion, if the narrative had really wanted to punish Dean, Gadreel would have been evil and somehow caused the start of an apocalypse and Metatron would've won for the moment (similar to Sam causing Lucifer to rise). For me on this show, that is the punishment. As I said, Sam got killed and turned into a psychopath also when he saved the world. To me that's just old hat for this show. Now when Sam didn't listen to Dean... well then that's when the apocalypse started. @ahrtee - I apologize. I typed this all out before your post came along... so I'm gonna post it dammit ; ). Can you give me a number for "Sam gets turned into a jerk for plotonium purposes" and "The consequences for Sam's mistakes / misdeeds are generally cosmically worse than Dean's"? I'll try to use them in the future... I can't promise however, since - like for this case for example - sometimes I think details of my argument are needed. Edited January 29, 2018 by AwesomO4000 1 Link to comment
ahrtee January 29, 2018 Share January 29, 2018 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Res said: But I thought this was the exact thing that this thread was supposed to "discuss" (who you think got shafted and why, etc.) while the episode thread was for discussion of the episode. Sorry--I'm not saying we can't discuss things. That's what I'm trying to get here. As I understand it, the episode thread isn't supposed to get into bitterness/BvJ. So if you want to be bitter about treatment in a particular episode, it has to come to this thread. But by bringing in the "always" and "never" and examples from past shows to prove a point (which is only based on individual perception anyway), IMO the point gets lost. But what bothers me is the repetition of certain themes (which can/have been refuted by others many times) and don't lead anywhere. Those are the ones I was (jokingly, apparently not well) trying to short cut. And again, none of my business. I'm sorry for all the bad things going on in your life, and hope they settle down soon! 23 minutes ago, Res said: ETA: Not saying that I disagree with the numbers, although I honestly probably won't remember what they are. I'm game if everyone wants to do it. Maybe we can make this into a new Supernatural game! ETA: Or maybe, to make things easier, instead of numbers we can use acronyms (like our ep titles): so DBLI would be "Dean behaves like an idiot; SiD could be "Sam (or Samsel) in Distress" or CiI could be "Cas is Invisible." :) New game, anyone? Edited January 29, 2018 by ahrtee 1 Link to comment
Res January 29, 2018 Share January 29, 2018 5 minutes ago, ahrtee said: Sorry--I'm not saying we can't discuss things. That's what I'm trying to get here. As I understand it, the episode thread isn't supposed to get into bitterness/BvJ. So if you want to be bitter about treatment in a particular episode, it has to come to this thread. But by bringing in the "always" and "never" and examples from past shows to prove a point (which is only based on individual perception anyway), IMO the point gets lost. But what bothers me is the repetition of certain themes (which can/have been refuted by others many times) and don't lead anywhere. Those are the ones I was (jokingly, apparently not well) trying to short cut. And again, none of my business. I'm sorry for all the bad things going on in your life, and hope they settle down soon! Maybe we can make this into a new Supernatural game! That's ok. I'm just new to the site and still haven't figured out what post is supposed to go where. I thought this is where we are supposed to post our bitterness of perceived wrongs against our favorites IF our favorite was Jared, Jensen or Misha or any combo of them and the bitterness thread was just for bitter reactions to spoilers. This site is confusing and more heavily monitored than the others I've been in so maybe I just shouldn't post here but with imdb forums gone, . . . *sigh* Need to get ready for next job anyway. Nevermind. 1 Link to comment
ahrtee January 29, 2018 Share January 29, 2018 3 minutes ago, Res said: That's ok. I'm just new to the site and still haven't figured out what post is supposed to go where. I thought this is where we are supposed to post our bitterness of perceived wrongs against our favorites IF our favorite was Jared, Jensen or Misha or any combo of them and the bitterness thread was just for bitter reactions to spoilers. This site is confusing and more heavily monitored than the others I've been in so maybe I just shouldn't post here but with imdb forums gone, . . . *sigh* Need to get ready for next job anyway. Nevermind. It's confusing to all of us. The mods have a "thread reference guide" pinned at the top of the SPN page, or you can ask them if you have questions. Welcome to the confusion! 1 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 January 29, 2018 Share January 29, 2018 2 minutes ago, Res said: I thought this is where we are supposed to post our bitterness of perceived wrongs against our favorites IF our favorite was Jared, Jensen or Misha or any combo of them and the bitterness thread was just for bitter reactions to spoilers. No don't go away... You're correct. That's what this thread is for. I forgot to put at the top of my post that I brought this over from the other bitterness thread. Sorry, I'll fix that. And actually there are 3 Bitterness threads: 1) (The first one) - the general bitterness thread 2) This thread - for perceived writer slights, and 3) The spoiler bitterness thread. That last one sometimes bleeds over into this one. I knew I was skirting the edge with my last post, so I brought it over here so as not to offend anyone who didn't want to hear me complain about that. Link to comment
catrox14 January 30, 2018 Share January 30, 2018 29 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said: It may not have been officially in the plan that Dean die in the attempt, though it's likely that it was in Dean's head that that was a possibility, but the main gist of the plan was that Sam and/or Dean go fight Metatron on that front while Castiel took care of things in heaven. Yes he was buying time for Castiel but it wasn't a suicide run for Dean IMO. He thought he was perfectly capable of killing him. The power of the douchey tribal tat and the FB IMO made him fully believe he could kill Metatron. I don't think Dean thought he was martyring himself to that cause. He underestimated Metatron and that's why he died. 1 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 January 30, 2018 Share January 30, 2018 1 minute ago, catrox14 said: Yes he was buying time for Castiel but it wasn't a suicide run for Dean IMO. He thought he was perfectly capable of killing him. The power of the douchey tribal tat and the FB IMO made him fully believe he could kill Metatron. I don't think Dean thought he was martyring himself to that cause. He underestimated Metatron and that's why he died. Agreed. You're right, Dean did get over-confident which partially lead to his getting stabbed***. I think when Dean was dying, though, he didn't really consider it a loss per se (he didn't yet know about becoming a demon, of course). He may not have gone into it as a suicide mission, but after he got stabbed, he accepted the consequences and knew he'd played his part: "I'm proud of us." He also would rather he die - again, not yet knowing the consequences - than continue on as what he was... so I don't think even Dean thought of it as a total loss at that point. He was gonna die fighting the good fight like he always thought he would / should. The demon part was definitely a set back, but still in my opinion, didn't outweigh the total win. (And actually, in the grand scheme of things, Demon Dean - and even MOC Dean - in the end was probably less dangerous than psychopath "enh so we kill a civilian every once in a while for the cause *shrug*" Soulless Sam. That bucket o' crazy had to go, for sure.) *** Reminds me of blood addled Sam in "Swan Song" saying "yes" anyway. I kinda knew as soon as Sam said "let's go," after drinking the gallons of "go juice" that that was not going to end well. Sam's whole attitude changed and here came the overconfidence and dangerous bravado again. 1 Link to comment
catrox14 January 30, 2018 Share January 30, 2018 1 minute ago, AwesomO4000 said: think when Dean was dying, though, he didn't really consider it a loss per se (he didn't yet know about becoming a demon, of course). Well, Dean might not have thought it a loss but I sure did! LOL I mean he became his literal worst nightmare. I feel pretty sure that if Dean had a choice between permanent irrevocable death and becoming a demon he'd take the former. That's not a win for Dean no matter how much demon!Dean didn't give a fuck about anyone or anything. Link to comment
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