“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[Aeryn13]

Quote

 I agree that the current writing team has a tendency to resort to lazy characterizations that may exaggerate some of Dean's less admirable qualities,

Even that might be workeable (if annoying) if they also portrayed some admirable qualities to balance it out. Going by the "work" of the current writing team, is he supposed to (still) have any? 

In those first four episodes of the Season, what did we have beyond mean, angry and immature in dealing with grief? Bad-assery is only so-so, he still got his ass kicked enough. The hunting itself, they played equally like "angry, likes to kill things" and not so much "heroic, likes to help people". That leaves what? 

In comparism, Sam is supposed to be overflowing with kindness and compassion and supportiveness. And he got badass moments, too.    

Edited November 7, 2017 by Aeryn13

[ILoveReading]

I agree.  If Dabb had a disdain for Sam, he wouldn't be written like he has been with getting on the majority of the kills and all the big ones, making the majority of the plans, finding most of the cases, bonding with most of guest stars, and being a perfect big brother to sad little muffin Jack. 

 

37 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

. I agree that the current writing team has a tendency to resort to lazy characterizations that may exaggerate some of Dean's less admirable qualities, but it isn't totally coming out of nowhere, either.

I don't recall Dean ever being this incompetent during hunting before.  He can barely hold his own in a fight, drops his gun, he needed to be saved in all four episodes, he repeatedly apologizes and gets nothing in return, repeatedly is made to call himself a dick.  (Dabb was the first one that made this reference.  He made fans so mad Kripke had to apologize. )

Spoiler

From the way the promo is farmed it looks like Dean is tried to a chair and needs to be saved again.  If it plays out like this it will be five for five with Dean needing to be saved

IMO, the way Dean is being written lately isn't how you treat a character your fond of.

Edited November 7, 2017 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

That's because Sam is usually called a bitch, and not in the friendly way, but as in "don't be a bitch." And no, that didn't only happen once. Or Sam's accused of having PMS.

Sam told Dean he was going through menopause in s5 because he watched Dr. Sexy. So the gendered insults go both ways.

When has Dean called Sam a bitch or said he was acting like a bitch other than s7. I legitimately don't remember any but that time?

[AwesomO4000]

I thought there were more, but I guess now it was maybe only "Unforgiven." Sorry about that. For some reason I was thinking there were more.

I forgot about the menopause. That was actually kind of funny though - but more because I hate those kind of shows, so I was more thinking it a dig on Dr. Sexy.

And I don't disagree with you that those insults go both ways... that was actually my main point - that the insults go both ways. Generally the bitchy, prissy, fussy, more feminine insults are usually levered at Sam and the dick ones at Dean, but in my opinion, neither is better or worse than the other. The complaint was that only Dean is called a dick,* so I said that generally Sam is the one called a bitch. They both get insulted. I really don't see it as any slight on just Dean. Just my opinion on that. Yours may vary.

* Though the Ghostbusters levered the "dick" moniker and other insults to both Winchesters fairly evenly.

[Myrelle]

16 hours ago, companionenvy said:

I agree that the current writing team has a tendency to resort to lazy characterizations that may exaggerate some of Dean's less admirable qualities, but it isn't totally coming out of nowhere, either.

Just as Sam's less admirable qualities didn't come out of nowhere in S8 either. But Sam got the trials storyline in the second half of that season and his more admirable qualities were magnified to the nth degree then with everyone and their mother praising how strong he was, without his even having had to apologize for anything that he did in the first half. And talk about  your dickish behavior. But nope. Not in the  writers' minds' apparently.

We've already gotten Dean apologizing for his dickish behavior and somehow I doubt very much that Dean is going to get a trials-like storyline in the second half of S13. Not on the new Samnatural/The Wacky Jack Show.

16 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Even that might be workeable (if annoying) if they also portrayed some admirable qualities to balance it out. Going by the "work" of the current writing team, is he supposed to (still) have any? 

In those first four episodes of the Season, what did we have beyond mean, angry and immature in dealing with grief? Bad-assery is only so-so, he still got his ass kicked enough. The hunting itself, they played equally like "angry, likes to kill things" and not so much "heroic, likes to help people". That leaves what? 

In comparism, Sam is supposed to be overflowing with kindness and compassion and supportiveness. And he got badass moments, too.    

This. So much-especially the bolded part.

It seems like the present set of writers think Dean's only admirable quality is his ability to issue apologies(whether they're necessary or not) and call out his own dickish behaviors.

I hate Dabb and co. with the fire of ten thousand suns. "Balancing things out",  my ass.

And no one will ever convince me also that something hinky isn't going on BTS of this show.

Edited November 8, 2017 by Myrelle

[companionenvy]

3 hours ago, Myrelle said:

Just as Sam's less admirable qualities didn't come out of nowhere in S8 either. But Sam got the trials storyline in the second half of that season and his more admirable qualities were magnified to the nth degree then with everyone and their mother praising how strong he was, without his even having had to apologize for anything that he did in the first half. And talk about  your dickish behavior. But nope. Not in the  writers' minds' apparently.

This has come up a number of times before, but since Sam chooses not to complete the trials, a lot of Sam fans consider the fact that he "gets" that plotline a whole lot of nothing. If Dean's defeat of Amara isn't really  that great because he doesn't have to set off the soul bomb, certainly Sam's effort at closing the gates of hell -- which, unlike Dean's gambit with Amara, doesn't result in solving the problem at hand -- is far less  satisfying.

[ILoveReading]

4 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

This has come up a number of times before, but since Sam chooses not to complete the trials, a lot of Sam fans consider the fact that he "gets" that plotline a whole lot of nothing. If Dean's defeat of Amara isn't really  that great because he doesn't have to set off the soul bomb, certainly Sam's effort at closing the gates of hell -- which, unlike Dean's gambit with Amara, doesn't result in solving the problem at hand -- is far less  satisfying.

The decision to stop the trials was framed as something Dean made Sam do, and as for the Amara thing apparently that wasn't Dean.  It was the power of God. 

At this point I need the show to actually recognize Dean's accomplishments.

[Myrelle]

11 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

The decision to stop the trials was framed as something Dean made Sam do, and as for the Amara thing apparently that wasn't Dean.  It was the power of God. 

At this point I need the show to actually recognize Dean's accomplishments.

Also Sam got to spew all of his heretofore unspoken feelings about how and why he feels that he's let Dean down so much-and it was because Dean has never trusted him like he trusts others in his life. See what he did there. Sam turned the responsibility for his own mistakes into something that was really just a result of Dean doing something wrong first with never the spoken thought from Sam that he's been earning Dean's mistrust for years now. Another Fallen Idols-like moment, IMO.

These kind of "apologies" from Sam are never going to fly with many in the Dean fandom, but since the writers seem hell-bent on this course, at this point, i'd like to see Dean afforded some of that famous "balance" the present set of writers are espousing as their game plan.

Enough has happened just this season, not to mention many earlier seasons, for them to address that imbalance-but oh wait, this is the Dean character we're taking about, not Sam, and as such, the "balancing" act just seems to be of less import to them. Nice.

And it doesn't look like a double standard character-wise or biased and agenda-based writing at all-well at least not to the fans that Dabb and co. are writing for and to, anyway.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

This has come up a number of times before, but since Sam chooses not to complete the trials, a lot of Sam fans consider the fact that he "gets" that plotline a whole lot of nothing. 

It was still used to portray Sam as strong, heroic, angsty in only the good way about maybe being unpure, badass when needed and so on. 

Since they are only presenting negative qualities for Dean now, will he get a storyline which turns this around? I hardly think so. Will they turn it around and show that Dean may have some, gasp, admirable qualities? I don`t think so either.   

Quote

These kind of "apologies" from Sam are never going to fly with many in the Dean fandom, but since the writers seem hell-bent on this course, at this point, i'd like to see Dean afforded some of that famous "balance" the present set of writers are espousing as their game plan.

I doubt couple of episodes down the road Dean will get to bemoan how he was so mean to Jack - but only because Sam was so pushy. And Sam will have no counterargument, the scene will be presented like Dean is 100 % right and Sam should be ashamed of his own behaviour and has to offer an apology. As if.  

Quote

At this point I need the show to actually recognize Dean's accomplishments.

I bet if John somehow came back, we would work a mention in how he (or he and Sam for kicks) killed Azazel. (Not to mention something about John never breaking compared to weak Dean because we`re riding that gravvy train till the end of the show).

Amara was obviously stopped by God, according to show. Maybe through the power of Pigeon Lady.  

Edited November 8, 2017 by Aeryn13

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Aeryn13 said:

ince they are only presenting negative qualities for Dean now, will he get a storyline which turns this around? I hardly think so. Will they turn it around and show that Dean may have some, gasp, admirable qualities? I don`t think so either.   

At this point the only way they can give Dean a bit of redemption for being mean to poor woobie Jack is for Jack to go dark side. Dean will look better for not having trusted Jack in the first place but it will always leave doubt that if Dean had been nice to Jack he wouldn't have gone dark side unless it's shown that Jack was playing them both the whole time for some nefarious reasons. And as much as it would suck for Sam, the worst is that he'll look foolish but it was because he was blinded by his obsession to save Mary and believe the best of people.

[gonzosgirrl]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

At this point the only way they can give Dean a bit of redemption for being mean to poor woobie Jack is for Jack to go dark side. Dean will look better for not having trusted Jack in the first place but it will always leave doubt that if Dean had been nice to Jack he wouldn't have gone dark side unless it's shown that Jack was playing them both the whole time for some nefarious reasons. And as much as it would suck for Sam, the worst is that he'll look foolish but it was because he was blinded by his obsession to save Mary and believe the best of people.

There is no 'winning' for Dean re: Jack at this point. They've taken care to emphasize his woobieness for 4 full episodes now. If he is good, Dean's an asshole who had no faith, a la St. Sam. If he's bad, well, St. Sam tried so hard, but mean old Dean pushed him to the darkside.

[Myrelle]

Sam was portrayed as "strong" more than any other descriptor in that storyline. And it didn't even matter that he didn't complete the trials. He got to be hailed as so strong AND he got to shift the blame for why he feels that he lets Dean down directly onto Dean's shoulders yet again.

How many times are they going to do this and expect anyone to truly respect the Sam character? It would seem that they are going to do it as many times as it takes and, oh look, the new SPN audience is even buying it a bit more this time. Although, that's likely because most Dean fans who still want to see the character written as his own character and not just an extension of his self-absorbed and self-centered little brother( strictly within the brother's dynamic, that is) who's also trying to act like dear old dad where it concerns Dean, have left the building feeling hopeless. That's the biggest reason that the new SPN audience is suddenly buying this unbalanced shtick, IMO-because Dabb has completed the mission. He's run off most of those type of Deanfans and I'm sure he's giving himself a big pat on the back for that, especially because the ratings have also held so far. Again, nice.

And he's now working on getting rid of the ones, those pesky few, who feel that there is indeed a big-time character based bias taking place in the writers' room because once he gets rid of the them, this fandom will be made up of everything and everyone that he wants it to be. And the feeling that I'm getting from all of these writers and producers is "It's about damned time" and look at that, all it took was to strip Dean of every good character trait he's ever had and either give it to Sam while taking it away from Dean and to also never, ever even mention it as ever having even been an original character trait of Dean's. IOW, just deny it and it will be as if it never happened. Oh, and play up Dean's "less admirable" qualities a lot while they're at it. Yup, I think Dabb has discovered the answer-just continue to fan the flames of hopelessness that those few types in the Dean fandom have been experiencing since S5, where it concerns the familial dynamic/aspect, and that will do the trick.

I'd like him(and this fandom) to tell me again about all of the apparent "character growth" on this show since S5. Pfffffffffttttttt...

I hate the brother dynamic more than ever now.

Edited November 8, 2017 by Myrelle

[gonzosgirrl]

6 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Sam was portrayed as "strong" more than any other descriptor in that storyline. And it didn't even matter that he didn't complete the trials. He got to be hailed as so strong AND he got to shift the blame for why he feels that he lets Dean down directly onto Dean's shoulders yet again.

How many times are they going to do this and expect anyone to truly respect the Sam character? It would seem that they are going to do it as many times as it takes and, oh look, the new SPN audience is even buying it a bit more this time. Although, that's likely because most Dean fans who still want to see the character written as his own character and not just an extension of his self-absorbed and self-centered little brother( strictly within the brother's dynamic, that is) who's also trying to act like dear old dad where it concerns Dean, have left the building feeling hopeless. That's the biggest reason that the new SPN audience is suddenly buying this unbalanced shtick, IMO-because Dabb has completed the mission. He's run off most of those type of Deanfans and I'm sure he's giving himself a big pat on the back for that, especially because the ratings have also held so far. Again, nice. And he's now working on getting rid of the ones, those pesky few, who feel that there is indeed a big-time character based bias taking place in the writers' room because once he gets rid of the them, this fandom will be made up of everything and everyone that he wants to be. And the feeling that I'm getting from all of these writers and producers is "It's about damned time" and look at that, all it took was to strip Dean of every good character trait he's ever had and either give it to Sam while taking it away from Dean and to also never, ever even mention it as ever having even been an original character trait od Dean's. IOW, just deny it and it will be as if it never happened. Yup, I think Dabb has discovered the answer-just continue to fan the hopelessness flames that the Dean fandom has been experiencing since S5, where it concerns the familial dynamic/aspect, and that will do the trick.

I'd like him(and this fandom) to tell me again about all of the apparent "character growth" on this show since S5.

I hate the brother dynamic more than ever now.

 

Dabb is gearing the show to teens/young adults who have been raised to believe that nothing is their own fault, there is always an excuse for their behaviors, and personal responsibility is a joke. It's not surprising that they gravitate to Sam (as he's written), and neither is it surprising that Dabb uses this as an easy out. 

Edited November 8, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[Myrelle]

23 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

 

Dabb is gearing the show to teens/young adults who have been raised to believe that nothing is their own fault, there is always an excuse for their behaviors, and personal responsibility is a joke. It's not surprising that they gravitate to Sam (as he's written), and neither is it surprising that Dabb uses this as an easy out. 

I could not agree more except to say that I see it as more of a mindset that he's attempting to write to more than age group; and he's using armchair psychology to push that agenda thinking that it will be enough for the ones he's writing for and to-and lo, it's working-everything is Dean's fault, dontchaknow? Everything. Sam and Jack are pure as the driven snow in all things and ways, according to this new SPN twitter and tumblr based fandom/audience.

Edited November 8, 2017 by Myrelle

[Katy M]

18 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I could not agree more except to say that I see it as more of a mindset that he's attempting to write to more than age group; and he's using armchair psychology to push that agenda thinking that it will be enough for the ones he's writing for and to-and lo, it's working-everything is Dean's fault, dontchaknow? Everything. Sam and Jack are pure as the driven snow in all things and ways, according to this new SPN twitter and tumblr based fandom/audience.

What exactly is Dean's fault?  And, I think if we were supposed to believe that Jack was "pure as the driven snow" he wouldn't have hurt people, accidentally or not.  No, I think we're supposed to be seeing everything as a grey area right now.

[Myrelle]

5 minutes ago, Katy M said:

What exactly is Dean's fault?  And, I think if we were supposed to believe that Jack was "pure as the driven snow" he wouldn't have hurt people, accidentally or not.  No, I think we're supposed to be seeing everything as a grey area right now.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this after last week's episode where both Jack and Sam had their grief addressed oh-so empathetically and sympathetically by the "therapist"(who knew nothing of their lives, btw), but Dean(whose only storyline this season was described by the writers and showrunners as "grieving" and little else) was scolded and shamed into apologizing for making everyone "feel bad" and for basically just "being a dick" to everyone. IOW, it IS all Dean's fault that Jack is messed up AND he's not been understanding of Poor Sammy's unspoken pain either. Bad Dean. How dare he think of himself at this time and how dare he be angry with Jack and with Sam for trying to push another unwanted parental role onto him and especially when it's only Lucifer's son(no biggie there at all) who Sam wants him to be the surrogate parent to and for because Sam just can't make it happen on his own.

Ugh. I hate this storyline and I knew I was going to for the predictable reasons and here we are being given the same old song and dance once again.

[companionenvy]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Dabb is gearing the show to teens/young adults who have been raised to believe that nothing is their own fault, there is always an excuse for their behaviors, and personal responsibility is a joke. It's not surprising that they gravitate to Sam (as he's written), and neither is it surprising that Dabb uses this as an easy out. 

I think it would be best, even in this thread, to avoid these kinds of generalizations about Sam fans and Dean fans. Whether one prefers Dean or Sam says about as much about a person's character as whether one prefers  sky blue or teal.

[Myrelle]

Quote

 

deanisdarkness

—Dean, You just upset your brother so much he had to leave the room. 

—Dean, You just made your brother so mad that he had to strangle you. 

—Dean, You just bossed your brother so much that he had to choose a demon over you.

—Dean, You just pressured your brother so much that he had to stop his suicide mission. 

This is part of an ongoing pattern, a message. You wanna here what the message is? Lemme spell it out for you. 

Dean, Your brother is never responsible, he is never at fault. You make him do these things, you trigger him by your actions, words, and thoughts, you are responsible for his actions, you are at fault. You have to change, accommodate and understand. Always and forever. 

 

I just had to bring this over from my tumblr dashboard.

This is the message that Dabb and co. put out through 13.04 for some of us who still think that Dean deserves better from these writers; that is IF they do truly care about the character and care about writing and portraying the character as a character unto himself and one who isn't simply and only just an extension of his brother.

Unfortunately(and IMO), this is also the segment of the fandom that's dwindling the most because of hopelessness on that front; and it's being replaced with those of that teeny bopper mindset that Gonzosgirl described above, IMO.

And Dabb and co. are doing everything they can to make this happen, IMO.

Edited November 8, 2017 by Myrelle

[gonzosgirrl]

--Dean, You exist, therefore it is your fault.

[auntvi]

I was criticized for saying the same thing about Sam!

[gonzosgirrl]

5 minutes ago, auntvi said:

I was criticized for saying the same thing about Sam!

Which thing?

I am trying hard to recall if there has ever been a time where Dean blamed Sam for [Dean's] behavior.  ETA: Many times he's said/implied that he did things because saving/looking out for Sam was 'his job', but if anything that was putting blame on John, not Sam.

Edited November 8, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[Jeddah]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

 

Dabb is gearing the show to teens/young adults who have been raised to believe that nothing is their own fault, there is always an excuse for their behaviors, and personal responsibility is a joke. It's not surprising that they gravitate to Sam (as he's written), and neither is it surprising that Dabb uses this as an easy out. 

 

31 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I think it would be best, even in this thread, to avoid these kinds of generalizations about Sam fans and Dean fans. Whether one prefers Dean or Sam says about as much about a person's character as whether one prefers  sky blue or teal.

I agree completely, @companionenvy!

I’d also like to defend the teenagers and young adults of the world, and say that stereotypes about entire generations are very rarely true. I don’t think all the younger fans prefer Sam, and even if they did it’s not because they were raised to think “personal responsibility is a joke.”

Edited November 8, 2017 by Jeddah

[auntvi]

“Dean you exist therefore it’s your fault. “

Which Is basically the same thing as me saying “the first rule of SPN is it’s always Sam’s fault”, which I was criticized for. SPN is not that black & white. 

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, auntvi said:

“Dean you exist therefore it’s your fault. “

Which Is basically the same thing as me saying “the first rule of SPN is it’s always Sam’s fault”, which I was criticized for. SPN is not that black & white. 

It will never not be amazing to me how we can all watch the same show and have such diametrically opposing perceptions of it.

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It will never not be amazing to me how we can all watch the same show and have such diametrically opposing perceptions of it.

I can't decide if it's brilliant purposeful writing with ambiguity and if so, congrats on being the biggest trolls of their own fandom.

Or it's terrible writing and so much is left out of the narrative that viewers end up filling in blanks to try and understand retcons and revisionist writing.

[gonzosgirrl]

Just now, catrox14 said:

I can't decide if it's brilliant purposeful writing with ambiguity and if so, congrats on being the biggest trolls of their own fandom.

Or it's terrible writing and so much is left out of the narrative that viewers end up filling in blanks to try and understand retcons and revisionist writing.

My money is on option 2.

[catrox14]

42 minutes ago, auntvi said:

“Dean you exist therefore it’s your fault. “

Which Is basically the same thing as me saying “the first rule of SPN is it’s always Sam’s fault”, which I was criticized for. SPN is not that black & white. 

I see it this way. 

Wasn't the whole point of s5 for Dean to learn how to be a better brother and let Sam grow up and he had to let Sam make a sacrifice. Fallen idols had Sam telling Dean he went with Ruby because Dean didn't let him grow up. S8 the point was that Dean made Sam feel so bad about himself by having a life with Amelia, that it made Dean turn to a vampire friend (And an angel friend), I think. I still don't understand that stupid speech. LOL

5 years later, Dean's getting flak for being mean to poor Woobie Spawn of Satan. It's already been stated by Sam, that DEAN is the reason Jack is messed up. Literally that was the dialogue. Nothing about his nature. Dean didn't get to explain why he said what he said to Jack. What's being sold currently is that Dean is going to be the reason Jack goes bad.

So for me it boils down to Sam is at fault for doing things that screw up the world, and Dean is at fault for what Sam does because he is either not there for for Sam when he should be, he's too controlling and mean to Sam so Sam goes off and does something sketchy or stupid.

Edited November 8, 2017 by catrox14

[gonzosgirrl]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

So for me it boils down to Sam is at fault for doing things that screw up the world, and Dean is at fault for what Sam does because he is either not there for for Sam when he should be, he's too controlling and mean to Sam so Sam goes off and does something sketchy or stupid.

A succinct and IMO accurate accounting of the Dean vs Sam assignment of guilt. Sadly, I think the 'therefore Dean is at fault' is the logical end of the argument.

[Myrelle]

25 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

So for me it boils down to Sam is at fault for doing things that screw up the world, and Dean is at fault for what Sam does because he is either not there for for Sam when he should be, he's too controlling and mean to Sam so Sam goes off and does something sketchy or stupid.

 

15 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

A succinct and IMO accurate accounting of the Dean vs Sam assignment of guilt. Sadly, I think the 'therefore Dean is at fault' is the logical end of the argument.

IA and I think that IS the end game of the authorial intent, too.

The status quo in this regard has to go before there can ever be any real and true character growth for either character, IMO. And that hasn't happened yet.

Edited November 8, 2017 by Myrelle

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

So for me it boils down to Sam is at fault for doing things that screw up the world, and Dean is at fault for what Sam does because he is either not there for for Sam when he should be, he's too controlling and mean to Sam so Sam goes off and does something sketchy or stupid.

This is what has been frustrating to for me since Fallen Idols.  Sam doesn't' have flaws.  The bad things he does are framed as being bad becasue someone else didn't agree with the action rather than the action itself.

Sam lying and going behind Deans' back in 4 wasn't bad because Sam lied and went behind Deans' back it was bad becasue Dean was being bossy and holding one to to tight and it made Sam feel like a little kid.  It's "only my fault because you made me do it in the first place."

By having Dean apologize and tell himself he needs to let go, it sends a message that yes, this is what happened.  If you all Dean to point out that he gave Ruby multiple chances, worked with her and told Sam to keep his secrets and just stop lying, it would highlight that Sam is very much shifting blame. 

As for Jack, if the show wanted us to see anything bad Jack does as part of his nature, they wouldn't have had Sam get in Dean's face and put the blame on him that its Dean's fault he's messed up.  They also wouldn't have the therapist blame Dean for making Jack scared of him.

In that scene, the "therapist" (and i use this term losely) doesn't know a thing about Jack, Sam or Dean.  Sam starts that session by talking about Dean.  You can see Dean's walls go up.  But when Dean does this same thing to Sam, Sam gets mad about Dean's relationship with Mary.*  Sam can dish it out but he really can't take it.   The "therapist" immediately say, Jack is scared of Dean.  Sam is the one who had just gotten angry and stormed out.  Not knowing anything about their dynamics why wouldn't she immediately put the blame on Dean.  How did she know that Jack wasn't scared becasue of Sam's outburst.**

*This is what I talked about earlier about the way Sam places blame.  Sam but little effort into trying to establish a relationship with Mary.   But that wasnt' teh problem, the problem was Mary calling and reaching out to Dean.  I'm not saying it would have worked because Mary was the Queen of Ice, but during the early stages, Sam could have called her. 

**I know that it was Jack that Dean was scared off but the therapist didn't know a single thing about them, so there was no way she should have known that.  The argument was strictly between Sam and Dean and she didn't see Jack or Dean interact with each other at that point.

[Myrelle]

That "therapy" scene helped this show to reach a new low, IMO.

[ILoveReading]

Just now, Myrelle said:

That "therapy" scene helped this show to reach a new low, IMO.

I wish I could like this more than once.  The "therapy" scene had an agenda and it accomplished it in spades.  The majority reviews and posts I've read all seem to be be of the "Dean needs to be punched in the throat" for being mean to poor woobie Jack and Sam.

Jack doesn't come across as dangerous.  The consensus seems to be he's a precious cinnamon roll who needs a hug and some nougat.  

[catrox14]

22 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

**I know that it was Jack that Dean was scared off but the therapist didn't know a single thing about them, so there was no way she should have known that.  The argument was strictly between Sam and Dean and she didn't see Jack or Dean interact with each other at that point.

That drove me crazy.

Like if she would have said, "Dean, I'm picking up some hostility"  because that would be the only thing she could really discern, then she should have said Dean "Let's talk about this". And she sure as shit wouldn't have said not stopped at ONE question that was more about Dean's disdain for therapy than Dean's well being.

[gonzosgirrl]

7 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I wish I could like this more than once.  The "therapy" scene had an agenda and it accomplished it in spades.  The majority reviews and posts I've read all seem to be be of the "Dean needs to be punched in the throat" for being mean to poor woobie Jack and Sam.

Jack doesn't come across as dangerous.  The consensus seems to be he's a precious cinnamon roll who needs a hug and some nougat.  

Yep. Except for my diehard Dean friends, I haven't read a single review, recap or comment that didn't heap blame on Dean for all that's transpired in S13 thus far. Some are couched/softened with the 'he's mourning' aspect, but they still put the onus on him to come around/apologize for it. Dean is most assuredly viewed as the villain of the piece, while poor put-upon Sam tries so hard and woobie, innocent Jack just want to be loved.

[catrox14]

ETA: I've been thinking they are trying to draw post Mary death John parallel with Dean and Sam and Jack and it's AWFUL because John is not Dean. Dean does not act like John.

I don't even get how Sam got to the John comments in the first place. It's not remotely the same thing because Dean and Sam are NOT LUCIFER'S SPAWN. Gods, it's such a bad analogy.
 

[gonzosgirrl]

12 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

ETA: I've been thinking they are trying to draw post Mary death John parallel with Dean and Sam and Jack and it's AWFUL because John is not Dean. Dean does not act like John.

I don't even get how Sam got to the John comments in the first place. It's not remotely the same thing because Dean and Sam are NOT LUCIFER'S SPAWN. Gods, it's such a bad analogy.
 

That line just felt as though they had it in their pocket and were going to shoe-horn it into this arc whether it suited the moment or not. Swear to god, Dean isn't much like either of his parents. My secret fantasy is that he was adopted or switched at birth and that's why Michael didn't use him in the end.

Edited November 8, 2017 by gonzosgirrl
shoe-horn and can opener, not the same thing

[AwesomO4000]

10 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I am trying hard to recall if there has ever been a time where Dean blamed Sam for [Dean's] behavior.  ETA: Many times he's said/implied that he did things because saving/looking out for Sam was 'his job', but if anything that was putting blame on John, not Sam.

How about "I had to stay and take care of Dad, because you abandoned the family?" (No Dean, that was your decision). Or "you ruined my life by being born?" and "I always have to clean up your messes?" (Well, Dean, you did actually contribute to some of  those messes, even if only to a lesser extent). Sure one of those things was said by something else accessing Dean's thoughts and the others were demon Dean, but both were using thoughts in Dean's head, and likely had a kernel of truth to them in terms of Dean's mindset.

In my opinion, this show has mainly been written through the lens of Dean's life being ruined by everyone else - his overbearing father, his screw up brother, outside forces beyond his control. Dean doesn't get "it was your choices that caused the apocalypse" or "Dean hit a dog" arcs. He gets to fix everyone else's mistakes and get praised by God. While Sam gets a *pause* "... and Sam." Sure it's giving Dean more responsibility, but in a way it's because the show is showing that Dean is the only competent one in the building apparently who can handle the responsibility.

I can legitimately interpret things that way, so it just goes to show how easy it is to take the same information and get a different conclusion.

16 hours ago, Myrelle said:

Just as Sam's less admirable qualities didn't come out of nowhere in S8 either. But Sam got the trials storyline in the second half of that season and his more admirable qualities were magnified to the nth degree then with everyone and their mother praising how strong he was, without his even having had to apologize for anything that he did in the first half. And talk about  your dickish behavior. But nope. Not in the  writers' minds' apparently.

Which isn't much different from how Dean didn't apologize in season 9. Sam was the one who had to tell Dean that Dean was right (about the mark of Cain) and come around to see what a "real friend" Gadreel was and then admit that he lied. While Dean got to defeat Abbadon and help Castiel stop Metatron by keeping Metatron occupied while Castiel found and destroyed the tablet. And they actually did stop Metatron - unlike Sam who didn't close the gates.

But that's okay. It's not Dean's fault that he is "programmed" to save Sam. It's John's fault... besides it's okay if he does anyway, because nothing much bad happens, because that ends up being all Sam's fault anyway. Even God says so.

And who was this "everyone and their mother" praising Sam for being strong to do the trials exactly?

12 hours ago, Myrelle said:

Also Sam got to spew all of his heretofore unspoken feelings about how and why he feels that he's let Dean down so much-and it was because Dean has never trusted him like he trusts others in his life. See what he did there. Sam turned the responsibility for his own mistakes into something that was really just a result of Dean doing something wrong first with never the spoken thought from Sam that he's been earning Dean's mistrust for years now. Another Fallen Idols-like moment, IMO.

These kind of "apologies" from Sam are never going to fly with many in the Dean fandom, but since the writers seem hell-bent on this course, at this point, i'd like to see Dean afforded some of that famous "balance" the present set of writers are espousing as their game plan.

Unlike the angel who has betrayed him just as much - if not more - but somehow Dean still trusts more anyway? Even if I interpreted what Sam said there as transferring all the blame - which I don't, otherwise why would Sam feel guilty and suicidal? - in my opinion there is a bit of truth there. Sam made one mistake in trusting Ruby and getting himself addicted, and he paid for that mistake and had to earn Dean's trust back. And then he didn't look for Dean, but Dean just assumed that was because of something negative. When Castiel up and left Dean in purgatory without word or warning, did Dean automatically assume Castiel abandoned him? No. He fought his way through purgatory to find Castiel. Who after all of Dean's sacrifice to find him decided his guilt was more important than Dean and didn't even go with Dean, semi-abandoning him again.

And Sam is doing the trials and Castiel is apparently not in the best headspace - which Sam questions - but Dean again assumes that is Sam who is going to mess up / fail with his "Sam needs a chaperone" comment - which Sam hears. So does Sam deserve a side eye from Dean - sure, fine. Does he deserve a bigger side eye than a vampire who Dean knew for one year? Ehn maybe debatable, but I'd say no. Or Castiel in his current state? For me that's a definite "no." So in my opinion: Sam had a legitimate point.

12 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

It was still used to portray Sam as strong, heroic, angsty in only the good way about maybe being unpure, badass when needed and so on.

It was? I guess I missed the part where Sam did the trials by himself without having to be bailed out by everybody and a vampire. And then actually finished them.

Quote

Amara was obviously stopped by God, according to show. Maybe through the power of Pigeon Lady. 

I think it was Dean who made it all possible, and God acknowledged it as such. I really don't know what more some fans want other than not only does Dean get to save the world again after defeating or helping to defeat all of the big bads in 6 six seasons (around a half dozen of them at least, some using special powers), and get praise personally from God, but he also has to get to do it while again using even more flashy powers and a choir of angels singing.

11 hours ago, Myrelle said:

Sam was portrayed as "strong" more than any other descriptor in that storyline. And it didn't even matter that he didn't complete the trials. He got to be hailed as so strong AND he got to shift the blame for why he feels that he lets Dean down directly onto Dean's shoulders yet again.

That wasn't my interpretation. Especially the part where Sam was suicidal because he was just so weak that he abandoned everyone and all his responsibilities and couldn't really handle the trials like he thought he could after all, and now he's feeling so guilty about it all that he can only kill himself to gain redemption. And only the power of Dean's awesome brotherly love could save him and let Sam know that he really is worthy.

I think this - while exaggerated and not one I entirely believe either - is just as valid an interpretation of the events we saw.

9 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I see it this way. 

Wasn't the whole point of s5 for Dean to learn how to be a better brother and let Sam grow up and he had to let Sam make a sacrifice. Fallen idols had Sam telling Dean he went with Ruby because Dean didn't let him grow up. S8 the point was that Dean made Sam feel so bad about himself by having a life with Amelia and for having a vampire friend (And an angel friend), I think. I still don't understand that stupid speech. LOL

I actually thought that one of the main points of season 4 and 5 was for Sam to learn that his leaving his family and no longer hunting only lead to very bad things. Ditto his considering that he was stronger and better than Dean and that when he tries to be too ambitious, it again only leads to very bad things... so he should just listen to Dean. This was a lesson he apparently had to learn again throughout season 8-10, where again not looking for Dean and leaving hunting lead to bad bad things in the end, and oh look hunting is really what he wants to do after all... which might've been growth or interesting if Sam hadn't learned the exact same thing  in season 5.

Interestingly these two things contradict, because why if Dean is supposed to learn to let Sam grow up and do things on his own, that when Sam does that... he entirely screws up? Almost every time. So I actually think my interpretation of season 4 and 5 is more the correct one... and what Sam learned again in season 8 - 10. The only way the apocalypse that Sam caused was defeated was by Sam letting Dean do everything and just taking a backseat to his brother.

Quote

So for me it boils down to Sam is at fault for doing things that screw up the world, and Dean is at fault for what Sam does because he is either not there for for Sam when he should be, he's too controlling and mean to Sam so Sam goes off and does something sketchy or stupid.

If it's supposedly Dean's fault, as you outline, then why does the narrative give us lots of reminders of how it was "Sam's choices" that caused the apocalypse? Wouldn't it instead give us examples of how Dean causes Sam to do things instead? And the reminders of how it's "Sam's choices" come from multiple characters: demons, angels, Castiel, hunters, on and on, even 4 seasons later. In my opinion, not even Sam's "Fallen Idols" speech blames Dean. Just because Sam goes with Ruby because it makes him feel stronger, how is that Dean's fault? That makes no sense to me. Sam even says "no it was my fault." And the later narrative only promotes that. The very next episode we get Sam lamenting his own choices and Castiel saying that Sam didn't make the right choice. For me, it couldn't be much clearer than that, and that the narrative considers Sam's choices Sam's fault. What more does the show have to do than having both Castiel and Sam literally saying that Sam made the wrong choice? Not Sam made the wrong choice because Dean - who wasn't even there - made him. Dean isn't even mentioned.

With Dean's choice to take on the mark and use the powers, when it all came down to it, and the shit hit the fan, it was still Sam's fault... and in case we had any question, God, himself absolves Dean, saying that the world would have been just fine with demon Dean in it, except that Sam screwed up. So even God makes sure we, the viewers know it's Sam's fault. Personally, I don't see how that can be interpreted as the narrative "blaming Dean." The narrative - through God, no less - literally said Dean wasn't to blame for Sam's choices.

Even the season 8 stuff - if there was any doubt - was explained in season 11 as Sam's fault and nothing to do with Dean. Even stopping the trails. When Lucifer asks Sam how he could've let Dean talk him out of doing the trials Sam literally says "I didn't." So no, Dean didn't make the decision... Sam did. And Sam and the narrative told us so.

So bottom line... I disagree with your interpretation.

Edited November 9, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[Aeryn13]

Quote

It was? I guess I missed the part where Sam did the trials by himself without having to be bailed out by everybody and a vampire. And then actually finished them.

Sam keeling over from trial sickness was still more of a badass than Dean has been for Season 12.B and the episodes so far in Season 13. 

And during the first part of Season 8 he wasn`t as thouroughly villainized as Dean is now. Because what IS a positive trait of Dean`s and when did we see one in the entirety of those 4 episodes? 

If they at least made him the Big Bad, he would aquire an arc and, my guess, flashy powers somehow. If they made him a valid hero again, he would be a competent badass with positive and heroic attributes. What they are doing now gives the character neither one.  

I do think Dabb has finally found the right formula to trash the character into tiny little bits so that the last impression from the show when it is over will be: at best: he was kinda cool in the beginning but ended up being garbage and at worst: he was never anything good to begin with. 

My guess is the final impression they will leave the character with after all is said and done will be wholly negative. At which point, who even remembers the first Seasons? 

Meanwhile, I would equally guess that Sam ends the series as sainted. Which, ditto about forgetting anything that may have been a small hindrance to his ascension along the way.  

[Myrelle]

23 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And who was this "everyone and their mother" praising Sam for being strong to do the trials exactly?

Dean most of all. And Charlie. And most importantly, the writers who put the words in their mouths.

And when was the last time Dean was described by anyone on this show as "strong" through the actual usage of that word and in such a definitive way as Dean and Charlie used it then?

Was it in What is and What Should Never be 11 years ago?-because that's the last time that I can remember Sam(or any other character for that matter) describing Dean as being definitively "strong".

And Sam just accepted Dean's own disavowal of being strong enough to kill Amara in S11. That would have been a good time to for Sam to do and say something about Dean's strength or even something along the lines of what Dean said about Sam to Castiel and the priest in S8B.

But nope. Just crickets on that front from the writers.

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

And Sam just accepted Dean's own disavowal of being strong enough to kill Amara in S11. That would have been a good time to for Sam to do and say something about Dean's strength or even something along the lines of what Dean said about Sam to Castiel and the priest in S8B.

This is why that scene was a failure to me and just another example of why I dont feel like Sam has any respect for Dean.  He didn't try to make Dean feel better about himself at all.  It was basically "yup. I got this."

The dialogue should have said something like, "It it comes down it it Dean, I'll do it but your stronger than you think."

Dean had already bested Amara twice by this point so Im not sure why Dean felt he couldn't do anything.

Sam's words about not judging Dean, were just words.  Because when God and everyone was piling on about Dean not wanting to hurt Amara Sam just sat there and didn't defend Dean.

[Reganne]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I see it this way. 

Wasn't the whole point of s5 for Dean to learn how to be a better brother and let Sam grow up and he had to let Sam make a sacrifice. Fallen idols had Sam telling Dean he went with Ruby because Dean didn't let him grow up. S8 the point was that Dean made Sam feel so bad about himself by having a life with Amelia, that it made Dean turn to a vampire friend (And an angel friend), I think. I still don't understand that stupid speech. LOL

 

I see the whole point of season 5 being Sam's redemption from all the huge mistakes he made in season 4.  He even says in Swan Song that he was the one who let Lucifer out so he has to be the one to put him back.  The way I see it, regardless of what made Sam do what he did in season 4, the narrative of the entire season places the majority of the blame on Sam.  Sam says once that one of the reasons he went with Ruby was to feel strong.  However, he says multiple times through out the season that he started the apocalypse (like in Sam interrupted while speaking with the therapist)  Not to mention, you have the narrative sending hunters out to attack/kill Sam because HE started the apocalypse.  Once in free to be you and me and also in Dark Side of the Moon.  The hunters in DSOTM even stated they weren't there to kill Dean but Sam.  If the narrative is trying to paint the apocalypse as Dean's fault... why aren't they setting these characters or other characters to attack Dean for starting the apocalypse.

 

As far as season 8.  No, it was to show how terrible of a brother Sam was.  So terrible in fact that a vampire who knew Dean for a year makes a better brother than Sam.  Said so by Dean himself.  Then he gets the lame trial storyline which didn't add up to anything.  On top of that, Dean said that if "anyone needs a chaperone, it's Sam".  Which is why I don't buy the whole "Sam was meant to be seen as Strong during the trials" argument.  

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

This is why that scene was a failure to me and just another example of why I dont feel like Sam has any respect for Dean.  He didn't try to make Dean feel better about himself at all.  It was basically "yup. I got this."

The dialogue should have said something like, "It it comes down it it Dean, I'll do it but your stronger than you think."

Dean had already bested Amara twice by this point so Im not sure why Dean felt he couldn't do anything.

Sam's words about not judging Dean, were just words.  Because when God and everyone was piling on about Dean not wanting to hurt Amara Sam just sat there and didn't defend Dean.

Kind of like how Dean just stood there in season 5 and let 'possessed Bobby' (who he thought was Bobby) yell at Sam how starting the apocalypse was unforgivable.  Didn't stick up for Sam or say "Hey I made a mistake too.  I broke the first seal'.  No, he let Sam take the entire rap for starting the apocalypse.  Which doesn't surprise me, because once they hit season 5, the fact that Dean broke the first seal was all but forgotten.  Then of course you have Dean talking to Bobby on the phone in fallen idols and saying "well we all know who's fault that is".  Talking about Sam being at fault for the apocalypse. Makes me think that Dean and the narrative blame Sam solely for the apocalypse.  

Edited November 8, 2017 by Reganne

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Reganne said:

I see the whole point of season 5 being Sam's redemption from all the huge mistakes he made in season 4.

I wasn't suggesting otherwise for Sam.  I should have been more clear that I meant for DEAN in s5. That DEAN's lesson was as I posted. I guess I figured that was going to be understood that since I was mostly addressing Dean and his situation in S5. Sorry for not being more specific in my wording.

[Reganne]

Just now, catrox14 said:

I wasn't suggesting otherwise for Sam.  I should have been more clear that I meant for DEAN in s5. That DEAN's lesson was as I posted. I guess I figured that was going to be understood that since I was mostly addressing Dean and his situation in S5. Sorry for not being more specific in my wording.

No problem.  I guess I just misunderstood your intent.  Sorry about that.

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

Sam's words about not judging Dean, were just words.  Because when God and everyone was piling on about Dean not wanting to hurt Amara Sam just sat there and didn't defend Dean.

And I could say that Dean's words about Sam being strong were just words also, because when it came down to it, he didn't think Sam could handle it when he told Castiel that Sam needed a chaperone to do the "heavy lifting." But in reality I think it's mostly the difference in writers and using the characters to make the plot go where they want to go sometimes.

The truth is that sometimes we don't say what we should have, because we get swayed by others' words or have doubts ourself at that moment and then wish we had said something else. But you don't always get to say the perfect thing, and these characters themselves are written as being human and not perfect, so they don't always say the perfect thing or do the perfect thing. Maybe Sam was thrown by Dean thinking he couldn't do anything - when as you said, Dean had twice before - and doubted for a moment: "well, if Dean thinks he can't." But in the end Sam didn't doubt Dean, and that's what counts in my opinion.

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

And during the first part of Season 8 he wasn`t as thouroughly villainized as Dean is now.

I can't say for sure, because I haven't seen the last two episodes, but from what I've heard, I don't think it could be as bad as what they did to Sam in season 8A. they had Sam abandon Kevin, for goodness sakes... to Crowley, who Sam knows is evil and tortures people. And there's a good possibility if Sam doesn't know he has the tablet (I forgot whether they knew or not) that the reason Crowley would want Kevin is to translate. So Sam knows 1) Crowley has Kevin - someone who ended up in that position because of things he (Sam) had a part in 2) Crowley likely wants Kevin for a reason, so 3) Crowley is likely up to no good with a potentially dangerous something of power 4) Crowley's likely to torture the poor kid, but the writers have Sam do... nothing, then shrug his shoulder all "oh well, not my problem." Not to mention leave a bunch of leviathans potentially running around, because he decides to just shrug his shoulders and not hunt. That's on top of not looking for Dean and being jealous of Benny and trying to kill him - which that episode alone had enough to villainize Sam, because not only was Benny innocent, but he was trying to connect with his family... which then Sam ruined. And Martin ended up dead. (I loathe that episode).

Somehow, in my opinion, Dean questioning whether or not the son of Satan might be evil and threatening to kill him - if he goes bad - and being upset due to grief doesn't compare to what I outlined they villainized Sam with in season 8.. which is pretty much that he was a coward - or at the very least shirked his responsibilities - jealous, projecting all over the place, and unsupportive. I think at some point even they decided they were doing something a bit over the line, because the entire tone of the show shifted in the second half of the season, and they just pretty much dropped a bunch of stuff "nothing to see here, folks" instead of addressing it and letting Sam's characterization be fixed even a little. Sam wasn't allowed to apologize. No reason was given as to why he might've done what he did - like he snapped, or maybe he did try at least some, but didn't want to poke purgatory too much in case bad might happen. Nope. They just let all the bad stand as is.

[catrox14]

34 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I can't say for sure, because I haven't seen the last two episodes, but from what I've heard, I don't think it could be as bad as what they did to Sam in season 8A. they had Sam abandon Kevin, for goodness sakes... to

IMO, this is far worse than Sam in s8. Kevin was innocent but was a fully formed adult who was an prophet of the Lord. He was new to the gig but he also was incredibly smart and had his wits about him if in a horrible situation.

In this narrative of s13, Jack is being presented as innocent child in a man's body, who doesn't understand the world and he's being 'abused" by this cruel adult who can't look at him all whilst Sam is looking after him. Being kind, telling him that Dean doesn't hate him. He's cute and sweet and likes nougat. How could anyone be mean and treat him as unfairly as Dean?

Honestly, it's awful for Dean. Far worse than demon!Dean or MoC!Dean or any other version of Dean. It's all wrapped up in Dean's grief but it's also conflated with Dean's hunter instincts, but the show is not differentiating these for Dean.

By and large of the reactions I watch on youtube, even Dean fans are like 'Fuck, Dean. Jack is innocent. Dean is a dick and needs to get his ass kicked by Cas for being mean to Jack".  And of course the faction that already think Dean is an emotional cripple and abusive to Sam all these years, just sees this as evidence that they were right all along about Dean, because he's doing it to Jack now.

In 13.4, a therapist, a person of authority, is telling Dean that this poor "child" is afraid of him. And there is NO one thus far, disputing it or offering up a different read, like you know, Lucifer's son might actually be evil other than Dean.

Thus the stage has been set for the fault and blame to be on Dean for "making" Jack go dark side. Just like in 13.4 the therapist said that Dean 'made Sam so upset he had to leave'.  I didn't think anything could be worse than Fallen Idols for Dean but the past 4 episodes have proven me wrong.

Quote

Yeah, just another day at the office. How's the kid? He go Dark Side yet?

Nope. He is, uh, he's pretty messed up, though.

You're telling me.

No, Dean, he's messed up because of you. Dean you said you'd kill him.

It wasn't exactly like that.

Then how exactly was it?

I told him the truth. Read more: https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=supernatural&episode=s13e03

Edited November 9, 2017 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

IMO, this is far worse than Sam in s8. Kevin was innocent but was a fully formed adult who was an prophet of the Lord. He was new to the gig but he also was incredibly smart and had his wits about him if in a horrible situation.

But Sam didn't know any of that - that Kevin was resourceful and would get himself out. The only thing Sam knew was that Crowley had Kevin. And he was presented as not caring. At all. That's the part that bugged me. And Sam didn't look for Dean either... and the narrative made sure had no excuse. It would've taken one line to have Sam say that he tried, but he was worried about causing bad again, but that - in my opinion - wasn't what Carver was trying to accomplish. He seemed to want to bring Sam down so Sam could later learn his lesson or something. And the entire thing was pretty much ignored in the second half of the season until the clunky finale. And if all that wasn't bad enough, there was the Benny thing, where they made Benny as cuddly as possible so Sam would look horrible in comparison.

It may be small consolation, but at least this season, Dean has grief as a reason for his behavior. Because of the time jump, we never really got that perspective for Sam in season 8... and Carver never bothered revisiting it. Instead we got endless (it seemed to me) boring Amelia flashbacks. I have no idea why Carver thought most viewers would want to see that. I prefer Sam and even I barely paid attention to those if not outright fast forwarded through them. And that was only after I went back later, because I was so disgusted with Sam's characterization and what the show was showing me Sam had done, that I stopped watching for over a month - for the first time in 7 seasons.

And Dean also has logic. I don't entirely understand how reaction can be "awww the poor, little woobie." Are these fans not aware of the history of this show? It's almost never a poor, little woobie.*** And in the rare chance that it is - like the antichrist - there's still the pretty good chance that somehow something awful is going to happen. I may be a Sam preferrer, but even I'm on Dean's side here... this is going to go horribly wrong. And I think you mentioned somewhere that at least if it does go horribly wrong and even if Jack is playing them, at least Sam will only look stupid, but for me that's one of the worst things that can happen. I'm tired of Sam being played as the fool: getting played, being naive when he shouldn't be, or not following advice, or doing something stupid. Just for once in recent seasons, can't Sam not make a huge mistake? Just once?

*** I'm reminded of Project Runway when Heidi (Klum, the host for those unaware) announces to the contestants that they'll be attending a party, how exciting! One of the funniest things ever said on the show (and that show has some great quotes) was when one of the contestants said "They say it's a party... It's never a %^$&ing party!" (It was funny, 'cuz it's true. There's always some twist or ulterior motive for the "party.")

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

By and large of the reactions I watch on youtube, even Dean fans are like 'Fuck, Dean. Jack is innocent. Dean is a dick and needs to get his ass kicked by Cas for being mean to Jack".  And of course the faction that already think Dean is an emotional cripple and abusive to Sam all these years, just sees this as evidence that they were right all along about Dean, because he's doing it to Jack now.

I'm not going to disagree with how you feel here, because I understand. I remember how I felt in season 8 with all of the "Why don't they just kill off Sam so Dean can go hunting with Benny? He's a better brother to Dean anyway." posts. And there were a lot - actually where I posted (TWoP) they were by far the majority. And it was fodder for all of the fans who were already against Sam, because they used it as proof that Sam never really liked / loved Dean anyway and was happy that he was gone, because now he could be rid of him. Those posts were abundant as well.

The only thing I can say is, hopefully it will get better... and there won't be a season 9B equivalent for Dean (where Sam got trashed all over again, just when I thought it was getting better.) And I truly think it will get better, because I fully expect everything with Jack to go horribly wrong... and I think it will be precipitated by either Lucifer - so he'll be the obvious bad guy - or by Sam wanting Jack to open a portal to the alternate universe... which will be all on Sam, because it will have nothing to do with Jack "going bad" and Dean made it clear that they should leave that alone. (And Sam will be an idiot, because he's already learned that freakin' lesson with the Darkness.)

Edited November 9, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[catrox14]

48 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

But Sam didn't know any of that - that Kevin was resourceful and would get himself out. The only thing Sam knew was that Crowley had Kevin. And he was presented as not caring. At all. That's the part that bugged me. And Sam didn't look for Dean either... and the narrative made sure had no excuse. It would've taken one line to have Sam say that he tried, but he was worried about causing bad again, but that - in my opinion - wasn't what Carver was trying to accomplish. He seemed to want to bring Sam down so Sam could later learn his lesson or something. And the entire thing was pretty much ignored in the second half of the season until the clunky finale. And if all that wasn't bad enough, there was the Benny thing, where they made Benny as cuddly as possible so Sam would look horrible in comparison.

Sam didn't know he'd get himself out but there is still a gulf between Sam abandoning Dean who is resourceful, and Kevin who was not a newborn, and what's happening with Jack, Sam, and Dean.

Jack is 100% being pushed as a child in this situation. He's considered essentially a newborn manbaby even if he looks like he's 25. And Dean has thus far called Jack a freak, the devil, shot at him and told him he would kill him, blames him for Castiel and Mary's deaths and is rude, condescending. In 13.4, he literally told Jack 'Sit. Stay' as though he were a dog. Everyone and everything around Dean and I think it's fair to say...80% of the audience is all "Jack is SO CUTE. Jack is my child. I will protect Jack from that asshole Dean".

So yeah, even if Sam gets played, Dean is STILL being portrayed as mean to Jack and some think he's abusive.And even in 13.4 the therapist said that Jack is "terrified" of Dean and that was harming everyone around him with his anger.

At least, Sam wasn't accused of abusing a child. :(  which is the shitty narrative Dabb is pushing with Dean and Jack.

Edited November 9, 2017 by catrox14

[Myrelle]

5 hours ago, catrox14 said:

At least, Sam wasn't accused of abusing a child. :(  which is the shitty narrative Dabb is pushing with Dean and Jack.

This. So, so much.

It's the writers'/showrunners' idiotic mindsets concerning their idea of what constitutes "balance" that has aggravated me more than anything else ever since I read that asinine quote from one of them(I think it was Perez) last season. I knew that was going to mean we're planning on trashing Dean to make it up to all the Samfans for trashing Sam in S8-and don't worry Samfans we'll trash Dean twice as bad we trashed Sam AND we'll make Sam the biggest Marty Stu who ever Stued to make sure it works. This is how the writers on this show have rolled since forever, IMO. Dabb and co. have just taken that concept to new lows.

And that is exactly what they're doing. Dean isn't just being written as angry, mean, and abusive-what's worse is that he is being written as less competent as a hunter also so that they can make sure that Sam is shining in that area too-and this since 12B. He's not weak because he has trial sickness and Sam isn't strong because of anything supernatural that has happened to him. This writing is truly what the present set of writers see as both characters' most human roles and THAT'S what's been worst about all of this nonsense to me. They have stripped Dean of every positive human trait he's ever had and given it to Sam and they are pretending that Dean never had them. They suck out loud in all ways for doing to this show, IMO.

And the new SPN fandom is eating it up with a spoon. *I* wish they would kill Dean off, but sadly I know they won't because their gravy train will come to a halt then and they know it. Other than for that reason, Dabb doesn't give one shit about the Dean character, IMO and it's shown since S11.

At least when the writers supposedly trashed Sam in s8 they did it unintentionally. That's clear from all of their interviews. Where are all those similar interviews concerning Dean in the past few seasons. If they mention the character or his role at all it is almost as an aside.

This is what it looks like when petty writers intentionally try to tear down and assassinate an iconic character. Take note all of you aspiring writers. That seems to be the legacy that Dabb wants attached to his name.

We'll see what the second half brings, but, at this point, anything less than a Dean/Michael storyline with Jensen as the sole center of that one-just as Sam was gifted with in the Trials sl in 8B as the sole center of that one-and I will again spit on their idea of "balance".  And I'd take a Trials-like storyline for Dean any day of the week right now over what he's been given since Dabb first took over-which I believe to be as early as the beginning of S11 when all he could talk about that summer was Sam's new and exciting storyline right in the midst of the Amara/Darkness storyline.

Why are the damned writers and showrunners on this show so allergic to talking about the Dean character? That's the question that every Deanfan I know has been asking since S6.

Edited November 9, 2017 by Myrelle

[gonzosgirrl]

Imagine if Sam wanted to kill a child, borne of a human and a supernatural being, one who didn't ask to be born and couldn't help their parentage, one who aged into a teenager within hours/days of their birth, one who despite being a threat, was virtually defenseless at the moment of their death (having been cornered by an experienced hunter and with no other abilities beyond super strength to fight back with - no world-ending potential at all). Consider, just for a moment, that maybe emotions unrelated to that child had a bearing on Sam deciding its fate. Imagine if he then killed that child in front of its father because of what it might do, nuture vs nature not even being a consideration, never mind being given a chance. Oh wait, you don't have to imagine it. It happened.

RIP Emma.

Edited November 9, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[Pondlass1]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It happened.

Sam pretty much had to kill her and Dean would've done the same thing if the situation had been reversed.  However it's the aftermath that's different.  In that scenario Sam would've stomped off in a hissy fit.  Dean would've been dragged through the mud by writers for killing Sam's kith and kin, he would've had to apolgise for the rest of the season.  It would've been a Big Deal plotwise.

But - it was Dean's flesh & blood that died - so what the hay....  ?  He gets over things. And of course there's that pretty childhood friend he knifed so coldly.