“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[Katy M]

9 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Brought over from the spoiler thread. 

Isn't one of the biggest criticism's against Dean is that he doesn't respect other people boundaries and needs to stop making deals and the show makes him learn multiple lessons about letting go.  When he does make a deal it's selfish and clingy and  he deserved what Sam said in the Purge because Dean does it for himself and not others.  

Cas's body was right in front of him without burnt out wings.  Dean begged God to bring him back, and when told Jack could do anything his mind immediately went to Cas.   So its not like Dean just wrote him off. 

So now he's trying to do just that and he still wrong.

He really has to be the most damned if he does and damned if he doesn't character. 

It doesn't bother me that Dean didn't make a deal because I never liked he when he did it for Sam.

And, if they're going to be "in trouble" for not figuring out how to bring Cas back, why would those same criticisms not extend to Bobby and John, as well.  It's silly.  When normal people lose someone, they just get on with their life.  Well, maybe not laughing and skipping down the road, but they don't try to bring them back.

Most reasonable line from anyone on the show ever is from Lisa in You Can't Handle the Truth: "I'm not saying don't be close to Sam. I'm close to my sister. But if she got killed, I wouldn't bring her back from the dead!."  Seriously, they should make a magnet or something to remind themselves of this great wisdom.

[Wayward Son]

11 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Brought over from the spoiler thread. 

Isn't one of the biggest criticism's against Dean is that he doesn't respect other people boundaries and needs to stop making deals and the show makes him learn multiple lessons about letting go.  When he does make a deal it's selfish and clingy and  he deserved what Sam said in the Purge because Dean does it for himself and not others.  

Cas's body was right in front of him without burnt out wings.  Dean begged God to bring him back, and when told Jack could do anything his mind immediately went to Cas.   So its not like Dean just wrote him off. 

So now he's trying to do just that and he still wrong.

He really has to be the most damned if he does and damned if he doesn't character. 

It doesn't bother me that Dean didn't make a deal because I never liked he when he did it for Sam.

See the thing is, whether it’s right or wrong, Dean is the type to make a deal, or if not that make some other risky move to save someone he cares for. 

 

If Dean were to some day definitely state “Im done with making deals for anyone” and proved that by not trying to bring Sam back the next time he dies (and Sam came back by some other method) then I’d say fair enough and be happy he developed as a person. But IMO this isn’t the case and if/when Sam dies next he’ll be rushing to make some foolhardy move to bring him back. 

 

So since dean is the type to make deals etc I think it’s accurate enough to point out when he doesn’t care enough about someone (in this case Cas) to make that kind of risk for. 

[Myrelle]

19 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Brought over from the spoiler thread. 

Isn't one of the biggest criticism's against Dean is that he doesn't respect other people boundaries and needs to stop making deals and the show makes him learn multiple lessons about letting go.  When he does make a deal it's selfish and clingy and  he deserved what Sam said in the Purge because Dean does it for himself and not others.  

Cas's body was right in front of him without burnt out wings.  Dean begged God to bring him back, and when told Jack could do anything his mind immediately went to Cas.   So its not like Dean just wrote him off. 

So now he's trying to do just that and he still wrong.

He really has to be the most damned if he does and damned if he doesn't character. 

It doesn't bother me that Dean didn't make a deal because I never liked he when he did it for Sam.

Heh. Amen to all of this, but to the bolded part, especially.

[ILoveReading]

17 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

See the thing is, whether it’s right or wrong, Dean is the type to make a deal, or if not that make some other risky move to save someone he cares for. 

 

If Dean were to some day definitely state “Im done with making deals for anyone” and proved that by not trying to bring Sam back the next time he dies (and Sam came back by some other method) then I’d say fair enough and be happy he developed as a person. But IMO this isn’t the case and if/when Sam dies next he’ll be rushing to make some foolhardy move to bring him back. 

 

So since dean is the type to make deals etc I think it’s accurate enough to point out when he doesn’t care enough about someone (in this case Cas) to make that kind of risk for. 

This might belong in the unpopular opinion thread more, but I've never thought Dean making deals for Sam has to do with him caring about Sam more than Cas.  Dean was brainwashed from the age of four that he's responsible for Sam.   Dean has never really made a deal for anyone other then Sam.  Not, Mary, John, Bobby, Charlie, Kevin, Benny or Cas.    There was one half hearted attempt for Adam, but that was really only because he was in the same place as Sam.

There may be something I'm not remembering,

So in reality Dean is not a deal person unless it involves Sam.  The person he was made responsible for. 

I don't think the situations really are the Sam.  Dean didn't raise Cas and didn't have the burden of making sure Cas stayed safe put on his shoulders.

Dean never said he can't live without Sam, he can't live with him dead.  I think there is a difference.  

Edited November 5, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

 I guess I just don't pay that much attention to what the fans are thinking, because usually, I don't agree with most of them.

I didn't used to pay that much attention, but when one sees scenes and dialogues being written to some of the exact complaints that are out there, including using the very words from those complaints while also turning canon and what was actually shown to us on-screen on it's ear just to make the scene work(that ridiculous rant of Sam's in the therapists office, with Dean sitting there mute while Sam rants), it's hard to ignore them.

[Bessie]

3 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Dean has never really made a deal for anyone other then Sam.

Exactly. Deans never made a deal for anyone else. Cas was naive to think the brothers would make a deal for him.

[Wayward Son]

Just now, Bessie said:

Exactly. Deans never made a deal for anyone else. Cas was naive to think the brothers would make a deal for him.

Yes, because sadly Cas cares far more about them than they care about him.

[ILoveReading]

10 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Yes, because sadly Cas cares far more about them than they care about him.

Dean literally lost hope because he lost Cas.  That doesn't sound like not caring about someone to me. 

Committing suicide or throwing your life away from somone isn't a sign you care about them. It's a sign you dont' care about yourself.

Didn't Cas lie and betray Dean 3 times in one ep.  Cas isn't perfect either.

Dean also spent most of s11 and 12 fretting and worrying over Cas.  He spent more time doing that then he did worrying about Sam. 

Spoiler

according to set reports Cas is more concerned with Jack then Dean.  So poor Dean who cares about Cas more than Cas cares about him. 

 

So we'll just have to agree to disagree.  on this issue

Edited November 5, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Res]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

Nope.  Because Dabb can't even talk about Dean.  Nothing about Dean was mentioned at comic con, and whenever Dabb say's "The Winchesters" he clearly means Sam.

Although I wouldnt' be surprised if Jack does something sketchy and Dean defends him and Sam questions him, so that if one the remote chance Jack goes evil Sam still ends up on the right side. 

It's not just Dabb. Singer also has little to no use for 'mentally challenged' Dean. Same for his wife who refers to him as a straight up "killer". And ALL of them are in charge of the writing team. Make no mistake. It's all St Sam now.

[catrox14]

From spoilers and bitter spoilers. I hope this is the right place LOL

 

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

I just feel sorry for Cas that he thought the brothers cared enough about him to risk making a deal for while in reality Dean was just like “burn the body” and Sam didn’t exactly put up a fight. Poor Cas :( 

That's a pretty harsh reading on Dean's and Sam's state of mind IMO.  Dean saw Cas' burned wings on the ground. It's always been the final death for angels as far as Dean knew.

That said even knowing that, Dean still prayed and begged and demanded that Chuck resurrect Cas. And he waited for an answer. IMO he expected an immediate reply because the last time he prayed and shouted at GOD or the heavens in s11,  Chuck showed up as soon as Dean shouted at him to stop and called him a dick. Now that might have been a coincidence but I think given all that Dean did to try and save Chuck from Amara and then help them reunite, and having told Dean that the world would be okay with him and Sam, that Dean FULLY believed that Chuck would have helped him immediately, like he did in s11. 

That prayer happened before Dean had the run in with the drunk angel, who told him that Jack could do almost anything and it was obvious by the angel's words of "but no, he can't save Castiel" that Dean was thinking of that option, I mean why put it in the scene if that was not the implication. Now, they could have shown Jack trying to save Cas just to make that final option visual but they didn't so either Jack tried and couldn't or he didn't try. We don't know either way.

And it was only AFTER Dean prayed, got no answer and the angel dashed his hope about bringing back Castiel that Dean made the decision to burn his body.  And even THEN, Dean struggled to complete the task of preparing Cas' body for the pyre. He angrily pulled the curtains off the wall to tie a shroud around Castiel's body. He stopped a couple of times and had to steel himself to finish the job. I think that final moment of Dean looking down and closing his eyes was Dean praying again for Cas to wake up. So no, I don't think it was a matter that Dean and Sam were as cavalier and uncaring as your comment implies.

[DeeDee79]

29 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

So since dean is the type to make deals etc I think it’s accurate enough to point out when he doesn’t care enough about someone (in this case Cas) to make that kind of risk for. 

I don't think that Dean doesn't care but who would he make a deal with? He prayed to Chuck & Amara to bring his loved ones back and there was no answer. I honestly think that was his only option at this point with all of their usual allies dead. It's not like he could make a demon deal to bring Cas back because I doubt that any demon would have the power to resurrect an angel let alone be willing to help Dean or Sam. All they have at this point is Jack and Dean still holds him somewhat responsible for Cas being dead in the first place and he seems unable to bring him back as far as they know.

32 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Heh. Amen to all of this, but to the bolded part, especially.

Especially the bolded part.

[MysteryGuest]

31 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

So since dean is the type to make deals etc I think it’s accurate enough to point out when he doesn’t care enough about someone (in this case Cas) to make that kind of risk for. 

Had there actually been anyone to deal with, I firmly believe Dean would have tried to make that deal, but exactly who should he have gone to?  He tried God, but he didn't respond.  I think it's more than a bit unfair to say "Dean didn't care enough" when there literally was nothing he could have done.

[Katy M]

11 minutes ago, Bessie said:

Exactly. Deans never made a deal for anyone else. Cas was naive to think the brothers would make a deal for him.

Not a deal, exactly, but Dean told Gadreel to bring back Charlie instead of worrying about the witch when he said he could only help with one.  And, though, not true, he told Cas that he told the reaper that he wouldn't kill her if she brought him back.  And while I don't think anybody should be making deals for anybody else, of course Sam and Dean are closer to each other than to Cas.

2 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Had there actually been anyone to deal with, I firmly believe Dean would have tried to make that deal, but exactly who should he have gone to?  He tried God, but he didn't respond.  I think it's more than a bit unfair to say "Dean didn't care enough" when there literally was nothing he could have done.

Wait, I thought he was supposed to be researching.

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

Yes, because sadly Cas cares far more about them than they care about him.

I think that is not really true.  Dean stayed in Purgatory for an entire year when he could have left, to find Cas. And when he found Cas he wouldn't leave without him. Cas is the one that chose to stay behind.

I don't know what more Dean could have done than pray to the direct line of their personal friend, Guck, who has resurrected Cas in the past. He couldn't make a deal with Death because he killed Death. Dean sold his soul for Sam and look how that turned out. Dean couldn't even ask Lucifer for help, because he's not on Earth.

But I'm sure Dean will be shown to be a jerk for not doing it both narratively and in fandom. Fucker can't win for losing. :(

Edited November 6, 2017 by catrox14

[Res]

31 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

See the thing is, whether it’s right or wrong, Dean is the type to make a deal, or if not that make some other risky move to save someone he cares for. 

 

If Dean were to some day definitely state “Im done with making deals for anyone” and proved that by not trying to bring Sam back the next time he dies (and Sam came back by some other method) then I’d say fair enough and be happy he developed as a person. But IMO this isn’t the case and if/when Sam dies next he’ll be rushing to make some foolhardy move to bring him back. 

 

So since dean is the type to make deals etc I think it’s accurate enough to point out when he doesn’t care enough about someone (in this case Cas) to make that kind of risk for. 

Wow.  YMMV, I guess.

Actually, he did try to get Cas back when he prayed to that irritating supposed-god character to bring him back. Considering that's the entity that was in charge of whether Cas comes back almost every time. I thought that was very reasonable. Plus, he has no knowledge of where angels go when they die or how to get them back. Angels don't go to Heaven (who wouldn't help him any way because they hate Dean more than Cas who they despise). They don't go to Hell (whose buddy king killed himself to close the rift). And they don't go to Purgatory. So exactly who is he supposed to make a deal with? 

He also didn't make a deal for Mary so I guess he doesn't care enough for her either and he hasn't learned from ALL the other times he brought Sam back then was blasted, cursed and otherwise damned for it. 

But, no, he just doesn't care enough for Cas, in your opinion. Unless I read that wrong, in which case I apologize.

I for one am glad that he grew up enough to let things be. I'm going to be pissed if he does make deals for either or Sam again. For the record, I was beyond PO'd when he 'saved' Sam at the beginning of S9. Yes, I wanted him to just let Sam die rather than sacrifice his character again because the writers wrote themselves into a corner again. IDIOTS!!!

[catrox14]

ETA: Dean was clearly broken hearted when April killed Cas. Gadreel healed Cas and I think he did for Dean, because why would he have resurrected the one person who could have outed Gadreel if his angel mojo was working. He would have SEEN that he was Gadreel but he couldn't because he was human. That always puzzled me.

[Res]

10 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I don't think that Dean doesn't care but who would he make a deal with? He prayed to Chuck & Amara to bring his loved ones back and there was no answer. I honestly think that was his only option at this point with all of their usual allies dead. It's not like he could make a demon deal to bring Cas back because I doubt that any demon would have the power to resurrect an angel let alone be willing to help Dean or Sam. All they have at this point is Jack and Dean still holds him somewhat responsible for Cas being dead in the first place and he seems unable to bring him back as far as they know.

Especially the bolded part.

You said this much better than me! +2

[DeeDee79]

1 minute ago, Res said:

You said this much better than me! +2

:)

[Bessie]

I also think it's unfair to put the blame solely on Dean. Sam has certainly done plenty of sketchy things to save Dean. And he, too, was more than happy to wheel and deal with crossroads demons.  Just because he was unsuccessful doesn't make him any less prone to dealmaking. 

Sam may have been willing to keep Castiel's vessel around, but he didn't put up a fight when Dean wanted to burn him. So, if Dean is going to catch crap for this, then so should Sam. 

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

ETA: Dean was clearly broken hearted when April killed Cas. Gadreel healed Cas and I think he did for Dean, because why would he have resurrected the one person who could have outed Gadreel if his angel mojo was working. He would have SEEN that he was Gadreel but he couldn't because he was human. That always puzzled me.

Are we sure about that.  Nobody else did.  Crowley, April, the other reaper in that epi, presumably the demons that attacked him in Devil May Care didn't notice or they may not have attacked.

[Wayward Son]

4 minutes ago, Bessie said:

I also think it's unfair to put the blame solely on Dean. Sam has certainly done plenty of sketchy things to save Dean. And he, too, was more than happy to wheel and deal with crossroads demons.  Just because he was unsuccessful doesn't make him any less prone to dealmaking. 

Sam may have been willing to keep Castiel's vessel around, but he didn't put up a fight when Dean wanted to burn him. So, if Dean is going to catch crap for this, then so should Sam. 

I did say Sam didn’t put up much of a fight in my original comment. I thought that was enough to show my comment was also directed towards Sam. My following comments were about Dean because he was the brother the people I was responding to had focused on.

 

I don’t intend to further post about this issue since we are not supposed to debate in here. I just wanted to clarify that yes I was speaking of both brothers.

Edited November 5, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Bessie]

1 minute ago, Wayward Son said:

My following comments were about Dean because he was the brother the people I was responding to had focused on.

You're right. My apologies. I was trying to make a more general comment about wider reactions to the lack of dealmaking on Dean's part specifically. Not your comment in particular. I should've been more clear about that. 

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't know if I've ever heard Sam do the same.

I covered this somewhere recently on this thread, giving examples: the most recent ones being his conversation with Charlie in "The Book of the Damned" and his assertions to Lucifer that Dean would be coming to kick Lucifer's ass and later that he has faith in his family (Dean).

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Sure, he teases Sam about being smart, but it's also pretty clear he admires him for it, and he's often bragged about him to others.

Like when he tells Jack that Sam's ideas / plans generally don't work out? Sadly lately on this show that's fairly true, but not what I would call bragging or a compliment. And it isn't just recent. [paraphrase] "If anyone needs a chaperone doing the heavy lifting, it's Sam." Dean told Castiel in season 5 that he had more fun with him (Cas) than he'd had with Sam in years... not exactly complimentary, there. Dean spent some of season 9.5 through 10 seemingly being annoyed with Sam while he was influenced by the mark.

I think both brothers are guilty of being critical of and/or seeming to be annoyed with each other at various times. It's not just one-sided.

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Most of the time, I'd be hard pressed to say he even likes his brother.

There was season 7. Sam seemed to enjoy Dean's company even though Dean was depressed. He enjoyed when Dean laughed even at his (Sam's) expense. He stole Dean a giant slinky, knowing Dean would want it.

To me, Sam seemed genuine when he told Charlie that he couldn't imagine living the hunting life unless Dean was with him which to me implies more than just loving his brother, but enjoying being with him and doing the job together.  I remember them enjoying their "beach" vacation together and going to the wrestling match. And I thought they got along fairly well in season 11. *shrug*

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

And, as it turned out, he wasn`t. And Sam despite being supposedly wrong still got the hero narrative onscreen. 

In your opinion. I didn't see that scene as heroic for Sam. But even if it was, Dean made a questionable choice concerning the mark, too, but still ended up getting the hero ending. It's not like this only happens with Sam. And it is likely that Dabb had a lot of influence over the second half of season 11 which would seem to contradict this...

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I do not remotely see this for Dean. He will be blamed, shamed and at fault even IF he was right. This is Dabb`s Supernatural now and that means Dean is to be seen as horrible no matter what and Sam to be seen as wise and wonderful no matter what. 

...since it was Sam who was given the blame for the consequences of the mark. Even God as the writers' mouthpiece said so.

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Does anyone remotely see a chance of balance shifting back to Dean from now till the end of the show in any sympathetic or positive way? I don`t. Not with Dabb and Singer at the helm.

I do. See season 9 and season 10-11 (where Dabb had some influence) as examples. I have a hard time seeing a storyline where Dean would've been the one who recklessly joined the BMoL, but they had Sam do it - which if I remember correctly even you said made no sense . To me, it's logical that everyone should be seeing the potential for things to go wrong with Jack, and these attempts to make it seem like this isn't the case seem like a set up for when things go horribly wrong and Dean will be right. And Dean likely won't say "I told you so," because he's not going to be shown as arrogant.

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

Isn't one of the biggest criticism's against Dean is that he doesn't respect other people boundaries and needs to stop making deals and the show makes him learn multiple lessons about letting go.  When he does make a deal it's selfish and clingy and  he deserved what Sam said in the Purge because Dean does it for himself and not others.  

Well, it might have been if Dean didn't end up being proven right about what he said in that argument while Sam was show to be wrong and a hypocrite... also implying that everything else Sam said wasn't true (which it wasn't). Sam's argument conveniently didn't have him saying anything about Dean's lying to him - the actual thing that Dean did that was worthy of being questioned - because in my opinion, the argument wasn't to show Dean as deserving of Sam's words - if that were the case, the lying for months part would have been emphasized - but to set up the end of the season and Sam's "I lied." Sam's accusing Dean of "not letting him die" much like Sam implying Dean supposedly talked him out of closing the gates at one point was also Sam projecting... The writers even addressed this later in his conversation with Lucifer.

Quote

Lucifer: And... so why did you let Dean talk you out of closing the gates of Hell? ‘Cos the old Sam never would’ve done that. Not ever.

Sam: I didn’t...

So even Sam knows that it was his own decision and he's just deflecting, so Sam focusing on "I was ready to die" in "The Purge" argument was, in my opinion, mostly to set Sam up for being a hypocrite, not because Dean supposedly "deserved it." As I said, if they wanted to really go that route, they could have had Sam talk about how Dean lied for months while Sam thought that he was going crazy, and that he now has memories of killing angels and Kevin with his own hands in his head, and that his personal thoughts were violated, on and on, and that Dean just let that happen because he wanted Sam alive despite the cost. If that had been the case, then I might agree that the purpose was to show that Dean was selfish and clingy... but all of Sam's arguments ended up being a lie, unfounded, or beside the point, so were mostly to set up the "I lied" at the end as Sam learned that of course when the situation was reversed Sam would also do whatever he had to to save Dean after his big mistake not doing it in season 8.

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

He really has to be the most damned if he does and damned if he doesn't character. 

Debatable in my opinion. First Sam didn't look for Dean and his character was criticized and mocked for it ("Sam hit a dog") by the narrative, and then he did look for and save Dean... and his character was still criticized for it (his behavior implied to be worse than demon Dean's), and then made to start an apocalypse which God solely blamed him for. I would call that pretty "damned if he does and damned if he doesn't." So I think both characters get a pretty good taste of this.

Edited November 5, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[catrox14]

18 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Are we sure about that.  Nobody else did.  Crowley, April, the other reaper in that epi, presumably the demons that attacked him in Devil May Care didn't notice or they may not have attacked.

Do demons know angels on sight? I can't remember TBH.

As for April, she attacked Sam immediately and flung him across the room, and he was woozy. Then she killed Cas and went after him again. Dean took the blade out of Cas and killed her. Then Sam woke up and Gadreel came forward to save Cas. I don't think April had time enough to ping he was Gadreel or if she did she was dead before she could act on the knowledge. That said, angels weren't shown to be reapers until after April's existence so who knows if she could have see him or not LOL. Stupid retcon is stupid. 

Regardless, I still think Gadreel saved Cas for Dean. I don't know what other reason he had for saving him.

[Reganne]

17 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

 

Debatable in my opinion. First Sam didn't look for Dean and his character was criticized and mocked for it ("Sam hit a dog") by the narrative, and then he did look for and save Dean... and his character was still criticized for it (his behavior implied to be worse than demon Dean's), and then made to start an apocalypse which God solely blamed him for. I would call that pretty "damned if he does and damned if he doesn't." So I think both characters get a pretty good taste of this.

That is always what I thought about those two situations.  That Sam was damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.  In season 8, he was made out to be a horrible ungrateful, undeserving brother for not looking for Dean.  So much so that Benny was made out to be a better brother like/dependable figure than Sam.  Then at the end of season 10, he stops at NOTHING to save Dean.  At one point draining so much blood he almost kills himself.  Then when he saves Dean from the Mark, it's "Sam broke the world".  As you said even GOD himself said it was Sam's fault.

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Do demons know angels on sight? I can't remember TBH.

Well, generally, yes, both demons and angels have been able to see through the meatsuits. Back in S4 and S5, angels recognized demons and vice versa. Now, whether that's still true is generally dependent on what the plot needs. I seem to recall neither Cass or Crowley recognized Lucifer on when he was in Vince Vincente and it seems Crowley couldn't see there was an angel in Sam in S9, but he was being held in the dungeon, so... .

[Res]

Just now, DittyDotDot said:

Well, generally, yes, both demons and angels have been able to see through the meatsuits. Back in S4 and S5, angels recognized demons and vice versa. Now, whether that's still true is generally dependent on what the plot needs. I seem to recall neither Cass or Crowley recognized Lucifer on when he was in Vince Vincente and it seems Crowley couldn't see there was an angel in Sam in S9, but he was being held in the dungeon, so... .

I believe it depends on if the angel/demon is in control or just hitching a ride. If the angel/demon is in the background, it can't be seen. Or at least that's how I understood it.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Res said:

I believe it depends on if the angel/demon is in control or just hitching a ride. If the angel/demon is in the background, it can't be seen. Or at least that's how I understood it.

Ah that makes sense to me.

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Do demons know angels on sight? I can't remember TBH.

As for April, she attacked Sam immediately and flung him across the room, and he was woozy. Then she killed Cas and went after him again. Dean took the blade out of Cas and killed her. Then Sam woke up and Gadreel came forward to save Cas. I don't think April had time enough to ping he was Gadreel or if she did she was dead before she could act on the knowledge. That said, angels weren't shown to be reapers until after April's existence so who knows if she could have see him or not LOL. Stupid retcon is stupid. 

Regardless, I still think Gadreel saved Cas for Dean. I don't know what other reason he had for saving him.

Actually, I'm No Angel was the episode where reapers became angels.  And, yes, I'm pretty sure demons can see angels beyond the meatsuit.  I don't know if he saved Cas for Dean or not.  If he was trying to redeem himself, saving angels would probably count for that, but honestly, I don't know why Gadreel did anything he did.  He was all over the place.

 

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

Crowley couldn't see there was an angel in Sam in S9, but he was being held in the dungeon, so... .

That's true.  I hadn't thought about that. He had those depowering cuffs on, so that might have affected his "vision."

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Actually, I'm No Angel was the episode where reapers became angels.

 I thought that didn't happen until Tessa came back? Which part of I'm No Angel had angels as reapers? I just don't remember

[Wayward Son]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 I thought that didn't happen until Tessa came back? Which part of I'm No Angel had angels as reapers? I just don't remember

April talks about the banishment from heaven and how she was hired by Bartholomew due to the power hole in heaven created by Naomi’s death. I actually think the retconning began in Taxi Driver where an angel blade took out a reaper. 

[Katy M]

6 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

April talks about the banishment from heaven and how she was hired by Bartholomew due to the power hole in heaven created by Naomi’s death. I actually think the retconning began in Taxi Driver where an angel blade took out a reaper. 

angel blades take out demons and hell hounds, too, so the mere fact that one could kill a reaper, wouldn't necessarily make a reaper an angel, but, of course, it ended up being that way.  Actually, IIRC, Crowley acted like reapers worked for him.  At least rogue reapers.  Which seems crazy, because you wouldn't think rogue anythings would work for anyone.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

April talks about the banishment from heaven and how she was hired by Bartholomew due to the power hole in heaven created by Naomi’s death. I actually think the retconning began in Taxi Driver where an angel blade took out a reaper. 

Ah, thanks. 

Demons can be killed by angel blades as well, so to me that didn't mean reapers were angels per se in Taxi Driver.

[Wayward Son]

5 minutes ago, Katy M said:

angel blades take out demons and hell hounds, too, so the mere fact that one could kill a reaper, wouldn't necessarily make a reaper an angel, but, of course, it ended up being that way.  Actually, IIRC, Crowley acted like reapers worked for him.  At least rogue reapers.  Which seems crazy, because you wouldn't think rogue anythings would work for anyone.

 

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Ah, thanks. 

Demons can be killed by angel blades as well, so to me that didn't mean reapers were angels per se in Taxi Driver.

You’re right! Although IMO that’s when the retconning began even if it was implicit and still debatable at that point :) . It was definitely the episode where they went from neutral followers of death and the natural order to just as petty as the other angels. 

[gonzosgirrl]

@AwesomO4000, I do admire your unfailing support of Sam and willingness to always back up your positions and opinions so diligently. I mean that sincerely.

There are some individual points I could argue, and some I couldn't, but for me the fact remains that my impression of Sam, probably beginning in Season 4 on, is that he just doesn't like Dean. Love? Probably. Need? Maybe. But like? Admire? Nope. Not getting it at all, and a few isolated, emotionally charged 'confessions' just don't cut it. Maybe part of it is Jared's acting choices, the eyerolls and the sneers and the put-upon sighs, the superior, Dean's-a-little-slow attitude, combined with the sometimes shitty words they have him say - but I just don't feel that brotherly affection that I did in the early days. And I did. I wish I could show you the emails I exchanged with my watching buddy as we binged the first 9.5  seasons. We watched in a vacuum of sorts, avoiding spoilers and current discussions as much as possible. I had an affinity with Dean from the get go, but I LOVED these brothers, both of them. Their do-anything-for-each other, the fights, the fun - it was something I'd never seen on tv before, and at the end of the day, I believed these were two brothers who were also friends. I don't feel that any more.

Edited November 6, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[MysteryGuest]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

There are some individual points I could argue, and some I couldn't, but for me the fact remains that my impression of Sam, probably beginning in Season 4 on, is that he just doesn't like Dean. Love? Probably. Need? Maybe. But like? Admire? Nope. Not getting it at all, and a few isolated, emotionally charged 'confessions' just don't cut it. Maybe part of it is Jared's acting choices, the eyerolls and the sneers and the put-upon sighs, combined with the sometimes shitty words they have him say - but I just don't feel that brotherly affection that I did in the early days. And I did. I wish I could show you the emails I exchanged with my watching buddy as we binged the first 9.5  seasons. We watched in a vacuum of sorts, avoiding spoilers and current discussions as much as possible. I had an affinity with Dean from the get go, but I LOVED these brothers, both of them. Their do-anything-for-each other, the fights, the fun - it was something I'd never seen on tv before, and at the end of the day, I believed these were two brothers who were also friends. I don't feel that any more.

I think you have to look at their relationship differently than you would normal brothers.  For the most part, they spend every waking moment together.  I'd love to think they have friends they can hang with, have a beer, go to a movie, etc., but I doubt that very much.  I think any two people spending that much time together are going to go through changes in their relationship.  They're going to annoy the shit out of each other pretty frequently, I would think, but this doesn't mean they don't love each other or like each other.  

Then when you add in the lives they lead, and the amount of loss they've experienced, it's a wonder either one of them is even able to function at this point.  But I think they've shown time and again that when push comes to shove, they're each there for the other.  I think if the writers were trying intentionally to show that Sam doesn't "like" Dean, they'd be way more obvious about it, as they are with everything else.

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

ay, I believed these were two brothers who were also friends. I don't feel that any more.

This is a really interesting question as to whether Sam and Dean would choose to be friends if they weren't brothers.

[MysteryGuest]

35 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

This is a really interesting question as to whether Sam and Dean would choose to be friends if they weren't brothers.

I think that's a question that could be asked about most sibling relationships.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I think that's a question that could be asked about most sibling relationships.

Definitely. I know the answer in my family. But Sam and Dean are such an unusual dynamic I'd kind of like to see an alternate TL story where they aren't brothers, and it's not a construct. If they are who they are now but not related would they find any common ground beyond hunting. Like would they pick each other as "family" without being blood relatives. I kind of wonder.

43 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

 I think if the writers were trying intentionally to show that Sam doesn't "like" Dean, they'd be way more obvious about it, as they are with everything else.

Family doesn't have to "like" each other to love each other and protect each other.

[AwesomO4000]

16 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

There are some individual points I could argue, and some I couldn't, but for me the fact remains that my impression of Sam, probably beginning in Season 4 on, is that he just doesn't like Dean.

And I can't say that your impression is wrong, it's just not one I share... and in a way, I feel badly that you aren't able to enjoy the show as much without thinking that these two brothers share something. I don't appreciate as much the seasons where I don't see it due to writing choices - usually Carver's early seasons and parts of season 4 - but most I do.

It's also interesting to me that you see it more in the earlier seasons. I didn't see it as much in season 1 especially since I thought that the brothers were still relearning to like one another. The time in the show where I thought Sam and Dean connected most and enjoyed each other's company most was season 6.5 through 7. Episodes like "How to Win Friends..." and "Plucky Pennywhistle's" where they seemed to get each others' humor and actually enjoy themselves. (Plus actual Dean laughter and the giant slinky). "Time After Time..." when they were on the same wavelength and could work together even though they were more than 50 years apart. "Frontierland" with the good-natured teasing. "Out With the Old" - more good-natured ribbing. "The Mentalists" when they could have an argument, but still come back together and hear each other's points and compromise. This is the time in the show when I thought they enjoyed being with each other the most and I felt their brotherly connection even as one was depressed and the other was a little bit crazy. I'm kind of sad for you that you can't enjoy those seasons and episodes the way I can because you don't see a connection there like I do.

It's probably why I disliked season 8 so much, because it seemed to take that and throw it all away. If season 8 had come at a different time in the series - such as after season 4 - I may not have disliked it so much, but since it seemed to take one of my favorite times in the brothers' relationship and throw it out the window, I judged it more harshly.

3 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I think that's a question that could be asked about most sibling relationships.

Agreed.

[Res]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Definitely. I know the answer in my family. But Sam and Dean are such an unusual dynamic I'd kind of like to see an alternate TL story where they aren't brothers, and it's not a construct. If they are who they are now but not related would they find any common ground beyond hunting. Like would they pick each other as "family" without being blood relatives. I kind of wonder.

Same here. I mean, I know my family and I can honestly say they barely put up with me when they have to. I'm too different from them even though I devoted most of my early life to them but I'm still lucky if they remember I'm alive or answer my tests. Yet they still supposedly love me. My brother who died last year was the only one who checked up on me and actually acted like he cared. Go figure.

Edited November 6, 2017 by Res

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, AwesomO4000 said:

It's also interesting to me that you see it more in the earlier seasons. I didn't see it as much in season 1 especially since I thought that the brothers were still relearning to like one another. The time in the show where I thought Sam and

I thought they seemed more like friends in s1B through s4. I think they liked doing things together beyond hunting. Like they went to bars together and apparently movies or at least watched movies. I think moving into the bunker made them more insular with each other but  the hotel life they had to eat out mostly, they encountered other people more often. And granted they hadn't been through the shit like Hell but I think the show since s5, have made them too tropey.

[Bessie]

58 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I think you have to look at their relationship differently than you would normal brothers.

And even if they led normal lives, sibling relationships and the impact they have on human development are so complex. Sam and Dean wouldn't be who they are if you took away that lifelong relationship. 

[Jeddah]

I like to think the scene of them just driving and laughing in “Baby” happens when they’re traveling for jobs and we just don’t see it. But that’s probably just me hoping these poor boys have even a small amount of levity in their lives.

Edited November 6, 2017 by Jeddah

[DittyDotDot]

47 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

This is a really interesting question as to whether Sam and Dean would choose to be friends if they weren't brothers.

I think both Sam and Dean do like each other, despite their differences of opinion, and would choose to be family if they weren't actual blood family at this point, but if they had never been family in the first place? I don't know, that's a hard question to answer because friendship isn't necessarily dependent on common interests or beliefs, but more on a shared history that gets built over time. And, neither Sam nor Dean would be who they were today without the other and their shared experiences.

However, my guess would be that, yes, if they met as who they are now--like say they had to work a case together--I think they would find that they compliment each other and enjoy each other's company. My sense is that both annoy each other at times, but they both actually enjoy each other more than they annoy each other. Like, I think there are more Baby moments in their lives than there are The Purge. We just aren't always privy to the Baby moments anymore.

And, I believe they actually like and respect each other more today than they did back in S1. Back in S8-S10, I wasn't so sure of that, but my faith was restored in S11 and has just gotten stronger over the last couple years.

BTW, some of my best friends have been people I don't have a lot in common with. And, with my own family, I like to believe we would be friends if we weren't family. They annoy the crap out of me sometimes, but we actually do have a good time when we get together....sometimes. 

[MysteryGuest]

27 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Family doesn't have to "like" each other to love each other and protect each other.

This is absolutely true.  So I'm not that concerned with whether Sam "likes" Dean or not.  I would say at times he likes him a lot and at others, not so much.  I'd say the same for Dean.  And in answer to your question, if I had to guess, I doubt that Sam or Dean would seek out each other's company if they weren't related or weren't hunters.  They're pretty different people, all things considered.  Their lives are unusual and they've basically been forced together by circumstances beyond their control.  They've gone their separate ways a few time, but have come back together each time.  I think they respect each other the most as hunters, and know that they'd each rather hunt with the other than with anyone else.  Jensen and Jared may be best friends, but I don't necessarily think that Sam and Dean have to be.  

[MysteryGuest]

19 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

I like to think the scene of them just driving and laughing in “Baby” happens when they’re traveling for jobs and we just don’t see it. But that’s probably just me hoping these poor boys have even a small amount of levity in their lives.

I know we've talked about this before, but I think a lot of us would love a sort of "behind the scenes" episode of what goes on in their daily lives when they're not hunting.  They don't hunt 24/7, I would imagine sometimes weeks go by when they don't catch a case.  So what do they do besides binge Netflix?  I can see Sam spending time reading, and Dean listening to his music (and watching his anime porn), but they have to do other things...laundry, cleaning, shopping, etc.  They used to talk about movies and current events, so I have to assume they still do that.  I think most fans would love to see something like this.

That scene in Baby is one of my favorites and a great example of how they do like each other.  They were laughing and joking and talking about their parents...it was great.  I want more of that!

[DeeDee79]

10 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

That scene in Baby is one of my favorites and a great example of how they do like each other.  They were laughing and joking and talking about their parents...it was great.  I want more of that!

I know that SPN isn't a warm and fuzzy type of show but I wish that we would get a few episodes with moments like this put in instead of the angsty brother vs brother scenes that they insist on throwing in.

[Jeddah]

9 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think both Sam and Dean do like each other, despite their differences of opinion, and would choose to be family if they weren't actual blood family at this point, but if they had never been family in the first place? I don't know, that's a hard question to answer because friendship isn't necessarily dependent on common interests or beliefs, but more on a shared history that gets built over time. And, neither Sam nor Dean would be who they were today without the other and their shared experiences.

The AU episodes have given different takes on this. In “It’s a Terrible Life” they’re strangers who didn’t have any shared experiences, but they still ended up liking each other and working together.

“What Is and What Should Never Be” is one of my favorite episodes, but it has always bothered me that in Dean’s wish-verse he didn’t think he and Sam would be close. I hate when Dean says stealing Sam’s prom date sounds like him. Does he really think he would ever do that? But even in that episode, where they are really estranged, Dean still thought Sam would get in the car with him. I don’t know how much of that AU came from Dean’s subconscious or was planted by the Djinn.

Edited November 6, 2017 by Jeddah

[Res]

37 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I know that SPN isn't a warm and fuzzy type of show but I wish that we would get a few episodes with moments like this put in instead of the angsty brother vs brother scenes that they insist on throwing in.

I don't want those moments unless they actually start having BOTH brothers talk out and resolve their issues. That's why I haven't enjoyed or believed the so-called "brothers together" since the end of S9. They never resolved anything from S9 in any kind of way and even now they are only "together" and "on the same page" as long as the writers want them to be. They just give us "wangst" when they cannot figure out any other drama then have them magically over it when they want. I know, from what I've seen, most viewers don't care as long as they are together but I don't watch that way. I want actual played out resolution, not a vague "I lied" that give me nothing for reference or content. Casually thrown out vague whatever those are do NOT equal resolution IMO. I'm still wondering realistically why they are even together other than there's no where else for them to be.