“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[AwesomO4000]

11 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

So Dean being wrong is a given to me. They just won`t blame it on Sam or give Dean the big hero scene because of it because that river only flows in one direction.  

Until last season, Sam hadn't gotten a "Big Hero Scene"*** (as in defeating /stopping a major player) since season 5, so in my opinion, Sam was due (and even then, Sam's kills in season 12 were of one-shot players, not recurring characters) so I'm not sure why you are saying that the river flows in only one direction. In the last part of season 11 - which was likely under Dabb's supervision by then - Amara was blamed solely on Sam (by Chuck - so blame on Sam), and Dean got the save (big hero scene.) To me that equals flowing in Dean's direction.

So based on that, I think Dean has a chance again this season. It will likely have to do with fixing a portal /rift to the alternate dimension that I suspect Sam will somehow cause via convincing Jack to open one.

*** I personally don't count the hunter scene at the end of season 12, because to me,, that scene was more about Sam having to admit he was wrong and then hoping / begging the other hunters to help him out anyway. I just don't see the "hero moment" there at all. I would more count Sam taking on his hell memories at the end of season 6 - which to me was more of an example of a real heroic moment. A selfless, dangerous thing that no one else would even know about and he'd never get credit for... but he did it anyway, because it was the right thing to do. To me that was a heroic moment.

I would say Sam saying "no" to Lucifer that second time almost counted, but since stupidity landed Sam there in the first place and then bad happened because of it, I would have to deduct most of the points. Big difficulty, shitty execution, props for trying though.

[ahrtee]

24 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Until last season, Sam hadn't gotten a "Big Hero Scene"*** (as in defeating /stopping a major player) since season 5, so in my opinion, Sam was due (and even then, Sam's kills in season 12 were of one-shot players, not recurring characters) so I'm not sure why you are saying that the river flows in only one direction.

Aside from killing the Alpha Vamp, *Sam found, captured and cured DemonDean.*  All on his own.  Doesn't that count for anything?  :)

Edited October 24, 2017 by ahrtee

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Aside from killing the Alpha Vamp, *Sam found, captured and cured DemonDean.*  All on his own.  Doesn't that count for anything?  :)

Crowley sold out demonDean but I think the capture and cure count

[AwesomO4000]

44 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Aside from killing the Alpha Vamp,

Oops - I forgot that the Alpha vamp was one of Sam's kills, and yup he was a recurring character - so I was wrong on that one. Sam did get one recurring big bad in season 12. I think after 6 seasons without* - I'm glad Sam got one finally... I think I forgot it, because Sam getting to kill a recurring big bad I guess meant that he also had to turn into an idiot and inexplicably join the BMoL and propose to deceive Dean into joining them too in that same episode - way to ruin it for me, writers. I went from "way to go, Sam" to "wait, what the hell?" in about 10 minutes.

* Dean had 5 recurring and a couple more one shot big players and the Amara save during those 6 seasons - which is why even though I agree Sam got a good number of kills in season 12 rather quickly, he was somewhat way behind at the time, and so had a little catching up to do.

44 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

*Sam found, captured and cured DemonDean.*  All on his own.  Doesn't that count for anything?  :)

I have mixed feelings on this one, mostly because the set up to Sam saving Dean seemed to be part of a "Sam does worse things than even demon Dean" thing what with torturing and likely killing at least one crossroads demon in a newly possessed human meat suit no less, so there was very little chance the meat suit was already dead. And I think there were hints that there might have been more demons. And then there was Lester - which definitely not what I would call typical heroic behavior...so I'm not sure I count this in the "heroic" column. And this was exacerbated by Chuck talking about how the world would have been fine with Demon Dean in it... which interesting wording. Chuck didn't say "Dean with the mark of Cain." He said Demon Dean. So I sometimes have a hard time separating de-demoning Dean with the slippery slope to causing Amara.

It's kind of like Dean playing Death... Dean accidentally caused a few unintended deaths along the way, so even though it was risky and brave in trying to save Sam, there were costs that don't quite put it in the typical "hero" column for me. Though at least Dean's deaths there were by accident, so closer to heroic than not. Sam's deaths to save Dean were an on purpose (the crossroads demon) and a carelessness at best, half on purpose, so...

Bottom line, I would say it counts as a save of Dean (and about damn time, in my opinion), but I don't think I would technically call it a hero moment. Too many dark things done to get to that point - with more to come - for me to count it as such, but I could see where others might potentially still count it.

Edited October 24, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[flyinghigh]

16 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

To further expand I've always wanted to see an episode where Dean gets to confront his past and some of the things that happened to him, sort of like Devil in the details.   Where its not downplayed or used for laughs. (Yellow Fever). 

I feel like the design of the trials seems better to put Dean's demons to rest. 

Dean was killed by a hell hound.  So it would have been satisfying to watch him get to kill one.

Dean was trapped in hell and knows how horrible it was there so it might have helped him to release someone from hell.

He carries a lot of guilt from the souls he tortured and since that's how Demon's are created it might have helped Dean release some of it to cure a demon. 

So even if it was pointless, if Dean got to do the trials  I would have enjoyed it from that perspective. 

+1 Thank you for these comments. 

Season 8 is something that remains very neutral territory for me, in the sense,  I did not like the trial story line, to put it mildly, but the whole MOL bunker story was also introduced, which was fascinating.  So I hated it on one hand and loved the other part - extreme. 

 

Since we are on Season 8, I have never understood why the writer's logic went deep south when it came to choosing which brother would do the trials. I remember somewhere Singer had mentioned there was total agreement in the writers' room about Sam doing the trials. When I was watching the hound killing episode, which was before I heard Singer's comments,  the only thought that came to my mind was - how did Dean survive a year in purgatory when killing one hell hound is so much of an issue here? All the monsters go to purgatory, right? Shouldn't he be the more skilled one than Sam who, in his own words, didn't hunt any more?  

After that, the route that the trials arc took was plain boring to irritating. 

I really like the way you have put it - "quoted"  Yes, it would have been really way more enjoyable watching these trials from Dean's perspective. He needed to do these trials more than Sam. 

[gonzosgirrl]

6 hours ago, flyinghigh said:

+1 Thank you for these comments. 

Season 8 is something that remains very neutral territory for me, in the sense,  I did not like the trial story line, to put it mildly, but the whole MOL bunker story was also introduced, which was fascinating.  So I hated it on one hand and loved the other part - extreme. 

Since we are on Season 8, I have never understood why the writer's logic went deep south when it came to choosing which brother would do the trials. I remember somewhere Singer had mentioned there was total agreement in the writers' room about Sam doing the trials. When I was watching the hound killing episode, which was before I heard Singer's comments,  the only thought that came to my mind was - how did Dean survive a year in purgatory when killing one hell hound is so much of an issue here? All the monsters go to purgatory, right? Shouldn't he be the more skilled one than Sam who, in his own words, didn't hunt any more?  

After that, the route that the trials arc took was plain boring to irritating. 

I really like the way you have put it - "quoted"  Yes, it would have been really way more enjoyable watching these trials from Dean's perspective. He needed to do these trials more than Sam. 

As seen on screen, Sam took on the trials because Dean saw it as a suicide mission while Sam saw the bright and shining light at the end of the tunnel. Remember, the one he was going to show Dean? That's why Sam being so ready to die at the end that he disowned his brother, claimed no upside to being alive, and disavowed Dean's raison d'etre made so much sense. Oy.

(In case it isn't obvious, yes, that is sarcasm)

[Pondlass1]

I don't know if this is the right thread - but I've been reading a number of online reviews on the first two episodes and they are consistent in one area.  It's an area that bothers me too.  Namely - conversations.  No one has them.   Obvious conversations, things said, questions or attitudes you'd expect.  

And there have been so many missed opportunities, especially with the Jack character.  It's such limited writing.  

Edited October 24, 2017 by Pondlass1

[gonzosgirrl]

10 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I don't know if this is the right thread - but I've been reading a number of online reviews on the first two episodes and they are consistent in one area.  It's an area that bothers me too.  Namely - conversations.  No one has them.   Obvious conversations, things said, questions or attitudes you'd expect.  

And there have been so many missed opportunities, especially with the Jack character.  It's such limited writing.  

I agree - but it's probably a post for the writers thread?

http://forums.previously.tv/topic/8665-writers-directors-and-the-powers-that-be-you-know-the-chuck-of-their-own-story/

Or All Seasons, since it could be spoilery for past eps?

Edited October 24, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[Wayward Son]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

As seen on screen, Sam took on the trials because Dean saw it as a suicide mission while Sam saw the bright and shining light at the end of the tunnel. Remember, the one he was going to show Dean? That's why Sam being so ready to die at the end that he disowned his brother, claimed no upside to being alive, and disavowed Dean's raison d'etre made so much sense. Oy.

(In case it isn't obvious, yes, that is sarcasm)

I watched the episode the other day and honestly I don't think it does that great of a job as depicting Dean as being especially suicidal. What I mean is Dean has generally been shown to have the expectation that he is going to die bloody in the hunting life, so him being able to acknowledge that there's a high chance he won't make it out of something as momentous as closing the gates of hell seems more in line with Deans' general fatalism and less suicidal "OMG I just want to die" to me. But then I'm not a super Dean centric fan so perhaps I'm missing something *shrug* LOL 

Edited October 24, 2017 by Wayward Son

[gonzosgirrl]

23 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I watched the episode the other day and honestly I don't think it does that great of a job as depicting Dean as being especially suicidal. What I mean is Dean has generally been shown to have the expectation that he is going to die bloody in the hunting life, so him being able to acknowledge that there's a high chance he won't make it out of something as momentous as closing the gates of hell seems more in line with Deans' general fatalism and less suicidal "OMG I just want to die" to me. But then I'm not a super Dean centric fan so perhaps I'm missing something *shrug* LOL 

Actually, I agree with you - they didn't show it, but they tried to tell it. He was maybe less suicidal than willing to die, and more accurately, willing to die instead of Sam. The point I was making (or trying to make) was that Sam took it on because he claimed to see this light that Dean did not, and then the writers totally negated that. Don't get me wrong, Sam being willing to die to close the gates would have been heroic - but then, he didn't. He stopped the third trial, (albeit with Dean begging him to) and then they had him say there was no upside to him being alive, that he was ready to die for no good reason at that point. Bad, bad writing all around.

Edited October 24, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[Wayward Son]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Actually, I agree with you - they didn't show it, but they tried to tell it. Maybe less suicidal than willing to die, and more accurately, willing to die instead of Sam. The point I was making (or trying to make) was that Sam took it on because he claimed to see this light that Dean did not, and then the writers totally negated that. Don't get me wrong, Sam being willing to die to close the gates would have been heroic - but then, he didn't. He stopped the third trial, (albeit with Dean begging him to) and then they had him say there was no upside to him being alive, that he was ready to die for no good reason at that point. Bad, bad writing all around.

I agree! I think the writers were just obsessed with the theme of suicide in S8 tbh. They had Cas mention he thought he'd kill himself if he faced the damage he caused in heaven, they had Dean want to do the trials in order to die and then they had Sam want to complete them so he could die. The problem was, with the possible exception of Cas*, they didn't properly show us the characters getting to that stage. It was, as you said, all tell and no show.

 

* I actually think it made sense for Castiel to feel that way considering the damage he caused as Godstiel and his desire to atone and avoid earth by remaining in purgatory to hunt things. I'd consider Cas' 'sucide' storyline bad writing too though because they had him mention this once and never brought it up again. 

[gonzosgirrl]

2 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I agree! I think the writers were just obsessed with the theme of suicide in S8 tbh. They had Cas mention he thought he'd kill himself if he faced the damage he caused in heaven, they had Dean want to do the trials in order to die and then they had Sam want to complete them so he could die. The problem was, with the possible exception of Cas*, they didn't properly show us the characters getting to that stage. It was, as you said, all tell and no show.

 

* I actually think it made sense for Castiel to feel that way considering the damage he caused as Godstiel and his desire to atone and avoid earth by remaining in purgatory to hunt things. I'd consider Cas' 'sucide' storyline bad writing too though because they had him mention this once and never brought it up again. 

Yeah, but neither of them *wanted* to die - Dean was just willing to sacrifice himself rather than let Sam do it, because he sees himself as less important (a grunt). That's not suicidal - it's a whole different kettle of  fucked up psychological issues. Sam was also not willing to die, until suddenly, he was not only willing, but ready, and resentful that he didn't. Bah.

[Wayward Son]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Yeah, but neither of them *wanted* to die - Dean was just willing to sacrifice himself rather than let Sam do it, because he sees himself as less important (a grunt). That's not suicidal - it's a whole different kettle of  fucked up psychological issues. Sam was also not willing to die, until suddenly, he was not only willing, but ready, and resentful that he didn't. Bah.

I agree with you about Dean! And sorry that's the point I was trying to make, badly, that they didn't show us Sam wanting to die until suddenly Sam did out of the blue in the finale. They had Sam tell us he wanted to die during the Church scene, but they never actually showed us how Sam went from having hope in Trial and Error to wanting to die in Sacrifice.

Edited October 24, 2017 by Wayward Son

[gonzosgirrl]

I'm convinced @cw_spn is just trolling us now, lol. There are about a million different ways to promo that scene without saying that.

https://twitter.com/cw_spn/status/922867429050433536

 

Edited October 24, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[Aeryn13]

I got two words for them:  Eat me! 

 

Quote

*** I personally don't count the hunter scene at the end of season 12

I do, very much so. So I would be very happy if Dean got something like this.

Edited October 24, 2017 by Aeryn13

[ILoveReading]

coughpugatoryDeanandKevincough

[auntvi]

3 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

They had Sam tell us he wanted to die during the Church scene, but they never actually showed us how Sam went from having hope in Trial and Error to wanting to die in Sacrifice.

They did show Sam getting sicker and sicker from the first trial to the church. I got the impression that he just had nothing left & didn't care that he was going to die. Until Dean convinced him to stop.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'm convinced @cw_spn is just trolling us now, lol. There are about a million different ways to promo that scene without saying that.

https://twitter.com/cw_spn/status/922867429050433536

 

LOLOLOL Holy PR retcon Batman.

[gonzosgirrl]

Just now, catrox14 said:

LOLOLOL Holy PR retcon Batman.

Right? Of all the ways they could've tagged that clip, that's what they chose to go with. Oy.

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Right? Of all the ways they could've tagged that clip, that's what they chose to go with. Oy.

And they are getting lit up on Twitter for it lol

[Wayward Son]

Eh, fans do realise s8 was five seasons go and people can learn and grow from experience? While it may not have been true in the past it could easily be true that Sam never gives up on people now based on learning from his past mistakes *shrug*

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

And they are getting lit up on Twitter for it lol

Oh yes, I imagine. I've experienced some of the famous #SPNFamily myself for questioning it, lol.

Just now, Wayward Son said:

Eh, fans do realise s8 was five seasons go and people can learn and grow from experience? While it may not have been true in the past it could easily be true that Sam never gives up on people now based on learning from his past mistakes *shrug*

Yeah, that might've been a little long for a tag line. LOL! You're not wrong, but seriously - there are so many other ways to frame that clip, any number of which would've been complimentary to Sam, without irritating a good portion of the fandom. Don't even try to tell me the cw_spn account doesn't know this. They are not new.

[Lemuria]

21 minutes ago, auntvi said:

They did show Sam getting sicker and sicker from the first trial to the church. I got the impression that he just had nothing left & didn't care that he was going to die. Until Dean convinced him to stop.

But, if I remember it correctly (and I admit that the 2nd half of season 8 does not shine bright in my memory :) ), within only a couple (or so) of episodes, they're in the Impala and Sam is talking about how maybe Dean had been right and "this is harder than I thought."  Yep, because it's perfectly reasonable to assume that closing the gates of Hell against Hell's wishes would be a walk in the park.  Oy.

And I do want to note that it wasn't Dean fans who were saying he was suicidal.  Those I spoke with felt the same way about it that I did:  It wasn't being suicidal, just pragmatic.  This wasn't the kind of thing from which the person undertaking it would emerge unscathed (or even slightly "scathed" lol).  

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Eh, fans do realise s8 was five seasons go and people can learn and grow from experience? While it may not have been true in the past it could easily be true that Sam never gives up on people now based on learning from his past mistakes *shrug*

These are PR people and their job is using the right words. Surely they know that "never" means not ever/at no time, past present nor future. They've opened up the gates for valid criticism of their PR.

They could have gone with "Sam will never give up on Jack" or "Sam won't ever give up on anyone again". There is a reason they chose what they did. It's a narrative they want to put across. 

[Wayward Son]

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

These are PR people and their job is using the right words. Surely they know that "never" means not ever/at no time, past present nor future. They've opened up the gates for valid criticism of their PR.

They could have gone with "Sam will never give up on Jack" or "Sam won't ever give up on anyone again". There is a reason they chose what they did. It's a narrative they want to put across. 

I still think it’s fans being overly sensitive, but to each their own. 

[Katy M]

44 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

But, if I remember it correctly (and I admit that the 2nd half of season 8 does not shine bright in my memory :) ), within only a couple (or so) of episodes, they're in the Impala and Sam is talking about how maybe Dean had been right and "this is harder than I thought."  Yep, because it's perfectly reasonable to assume that closing the gates of Hell against Hell's wishes would be a walk in the park.  Oy.

And I do want to note that it wasn't Dean fans who were saying he was suicidal.  Those I spoke with felt the same way about it that I did:  It wasn't being suicidal, just pragmatic.  This wasn't the kind of thing from which the person undertaking it would emerge unscathed (or even slightly "scathed" lol).  

I agree that Dean wasn't being suicidal, just realistic in his expecations of death.  I also don't necessarily think that Sam thought Dean was suicidal, just too realistic in the expectation, if that makes sense.  I mean, Dean has said similar things before.  Like in Abandon All Hope, about he's just a chess piece and if they lose him it's no big deal. Paraphrasing, but that was the gist.

As for Sam saying a couple of days after the first trial that he wasn't sure about it, I don't think he thought it would be a walk in the park, but I don't think he thought that just doing the trials was going to bring on physical illness.  I mean, really, who would think that?  That sounds silly to me, honestly.  Even if the "ultimate" sacrifice was necessary, you'd think it would be more along the line of getting shut up in the door or something, thatn coughing up blood to death. 

And, Dean had said something earlier in that epi (possibly an epi earlier) that if they got too far down the road then Dean wouldn't be able to take over.  So, that was Sam, admitting to Dean that it might be too hard for him. In other words, being honest.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I still think it’s fans being overly sensitive, but to each their own. 

Wouldn't matter to me if it was Dean that hadn't looked for Sam or Kevin, if PR did this, I'd call it out just the same. It's bad PR.

[catrox14]

Re Dean and the Trials.

Dabb wrote Trial and Error and IMO did a hatchet job on Dean's mindset so he could flip the trials to Sam for...reasons. 

There were two things said

First was Dean giving his reasons for doing the trials.

Quote

'm a grunt, Sam. You're not. You've always been the brains of this operation.

 

SAM

Dean—

DEAN

And you told me yourself that you see a way out. You see a light at the end of this ugly-ass tunnel. I don't. But I tell you what I do know – it's that I'm gonna die with a gun in my hand. 'Cause that's what I have waiting for me – that's all I have waiting for me. I want you to get out. I want you to have a life – become a man of Letters, whatever. You, with a wife and kids and – and – and grandkids, living till you're fat and bald and chugging Viagra – that is my perfect ending, and it's the only one that I'm gonna get. So I'm gonna do these trials. I'm gonna do them alone – end of story. You're staying here. I'm going out there. If landshark comes knocking, you call me. If you try to follow me, I'm gonna put a bullet in your damn leg. [He walks away, we hear a door open.]

 

Then later, Sam says this:

Quote

Sam: I'm closing the gates. It's a suicide mission for you. I want to slam Hell shut, too, okay? But I want to survive it. I want to live, and so should you. You have friends up here, family. I mean, hell, you even got your own room now. You were right, okay? I see light at the end of this tunnel. And I'm sorry you don't -- I am. But it's there. And if you come with me, I can take you to it.

IMO, whether Dean was suicidal or not, Sam thinks he is. Or he's manipulating Dean so he would relent on doing the trials, like almost guilt tripping Dean. Either way Sam's reasoning was that he wanted to live and thus his 'so who cares if I live" might not be suicidal on it's face.

But something changed between "I want to live and so should you" to the following in Sacrifice. 

Quote

AM

Look at him. Look at him! Look how close we are! Other people will die if I don't finish this!

 

DEAN

Think about it. Think about what we know, huh? Pulling souls from hell, curing demons, hell, ganking a Hellhound! We have enough knowledge on our side to turn the tide here. But I can't do it without you.

 

SAM

You can barely do it with me. I mean, you think I screw up everything I try. You think I need a chaperone, remember?

 

DEAN

Come on, man. That's not what I meant.

 

SAM

No, it's exactly what you meant. You want to know what I confessed in there? What my greatest sin was? It was how many times I let you down. I can't do that again.

 

DEAN

Sam --

 

SAM

[beginning to cry] What happens when you've decided I can't be trusted again? I mean, who are you gonna turn to next time instead of me? Another angel, another -- another vampire? Do you have any idea what it feels like to watch your brother just –

 

DEAN

Hold on, hold on! You seriously think that? Because none of it -- none of it -- is true. Listen, man, I know we've had our disagreements, okay? Hell, I know I've said some junk that set you back on your heels. But, Sammy...come on. I killed Benny to save you. I'm willing to let this bastard and all the sons of bitches that killed mom walk because of you. Don't you dare think that there is anything, past or present, that I would put in front of you! It has never been like that, ever! I need you to see that. I'm begging you.

IMO, the back half of s8 was shit storytelling. Nothing made any sense about the trials at all.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Wouldn't matter to me if it was Dean that hadn't looked for Sam or Kevin, if PR did this, I'd call it out just the same. It's bad PR.

I think the account is just managed by a stan. So the pics and captions are stan-tastic and the comments reflect that. 

However, this kinda thing bothers me far less as when the show puts crap like that in. Like "you`ll never hear me say you are anything but good" and expect me to actually believe this as a sweet and sincere moment. Are you kidding me? 

If the writers had Sam or someone remarking on how he never gives up on anyone, THAT would be insanely stupid. Never is a pretty big absolute. 

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

These are PR people and their job is using the right words. Surely they know that "never" means not ever/at no time, past present nor future. They've opened up the gates for valid criticism of their PR.

They could have gone with "Sam will never give up on Jack" or "Sam won't ever give up on anyone again". There is a reason they chose what they did. It's a narrative they want to put across. 

Yup. Dean has given up on his own mother. But look, Sammy never gives up on people. Not even the spawn of Satan, never mind his own dear, sainted mama. It's coming... it's already begun.

ETA: And if it were only that Sam has learned from the past and doesn't want to repeat his mistakes, that would be fine. I would cheer for that. Cheer. But they can't just let that happen, no, they have to double down on it by making Dean give up instead. This is what pisses me off. I'm just waiting for him to run over a kid and meet a pediatrician.

Edited October 24, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[Wayward Son]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Wouldn't matter to me if it was Dean that hadn't looked for Sam or Kevin, if PR did this, I'd call it out just the same. It's bad PR.

I’ll make this my last post about this because I don’t want to break the debate rule, but I still think the caption doesn’t necessarily lie. 

 

If it had said 

 

“Sam has never quit anyone” that would be factually incorrect as the word “has” makes it a blank statement that covers his actions to date. 

 

Sam never quits on anyone IMO simply states that the Sam of now doesn’t quit on anyone, and I think that’s reasonable considering his past mistakes in that regard.

 

But, as I said, I’ll drop the subject now and agree to disagree. 

Edited October 24, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Airmid]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

I still think it’s fans being overly sensitive, but to each their own. 

If certain things didn't exist that are still contentious points among fans, I'd agree with you. And I don't mean just things like the first half of S8 but also where maybe Sam should have stopped - like with the Mark. 

It could have been worded different to still put Sam in a good light and not bring up things producers are better off leaving untouched.

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

IMO, the back half of s8 was shit storytelling. Nothing made any sense about the trials at all.

For me, I have that sentiment that it was shit storytelling for the whole season. I still don't know why two smart men would jump into something like closing hell without 1) knowing all the trials in advance and 2) trying to sniff out all the consequences before beginning. There's been enough things that they've jumped blindly into and been bit in the ass by that you'd think there would be a learning curve somewhere. But nope, they just marched along, no clue to where the road was leading and then somehow being surprised that something as severe as closing the gates of any realm wouldn't come with a big sacrifice. 

The season butchered Sam at the start with  no real reason as to why he acted the way he did (I would have taken Amelia as a hallucination, honestly. I don't hate the actress but her and JP had zero chemistry and each flashback felt like I lost a year off my life). Then it launched into the trials after their grandfather died (hello? Cas? Not even an attempt to talk to Cas or get a lecture about being out of time or anything?) culminating in one of their most stupid moves of a season ever - sewing a knight of hell back together and then both of them needing to go outside to answer the phone so she can escape. I mean, how long where they gone? Did they answer the phone, go out for burgers, catch a movie and then come back to the head scratching situation of Abaddon being gone? I seriously don't remember that big of a time lapse but then again, I don't watch any episode out of S8 often.

It was definitely harder on Sam as a whole, though it was hard on both brothers overall.

9 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Yup. Dean has given up on his own mother. But look, Sammy never gives up on people. Not even the spawn of Satan, never mind his own dear, sainted mama. It's coming... it's already begun.

*cries quietly*

[Res]

11 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'm convinced @cw_spn is just trolling us now, lol. There are about a million different ways to promo that scene without saying that.

https://twitter.com/cw_spn/status/922867429050433536

 

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOOL!  

*inhales*

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!

That's called revisionist history! Did the Duo get ahold of the CW's twitter account or did she just have her hubby do it? 

[AwesomO4000]

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

IMO, the back half of s8 was shit storytelling. Nothing made any sense about the trials at all.

I agree with @Airmid. In my opinion ALL of season 8 was shit storytelling. Carver had Sam not look for Dean and more importantly Kevin (since there is no way that made Sam look anything but bad as it was written) for... reasons, and so...

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Dabb wrote Trial and Error and IMO did a hatchet job on Dean's mindset so he could flip the trials to Sam for...reasons. 

In my opinion "reasons" being trying to try to make up for the damage done to Sam's character in the first half of the season - the damage of which should have been obvious to a 13 year old in my opinion - therefor making that a crappy storyline also. The Benny storyline could have been interesting, but that ended up being crappy storytelling also (in  my opinion) when they turned it into more of a dudebro Romeo and Juliet. I would like to have seen Benny struggle with being good, because he promised Dean, but having a hard time and Dean being torn between his feelings of loyalty for Benny and his knowing what was right... and Dean's really struggling with the difference between Purgatory and the real world. And then Benny could have suggested the sacrifice for Sam - rather than Dean having to ask - in order to make it up to Dean.

But anyway, it's probably just as well, because even though some here would have seen the trials as maybe being cathartic for Dean, I could also see the complaints that of course Dean didn't finish them, so the whole storyline was pretty much a non-entity no matter who did them... so yeah shit storytelling all around in my opinion.

11 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I do, very much so. So I would be very happy if Dean got something like this.

And I would have been happier if Sam got the cool well-written emotional scene, but what can you do?

As for Dean getting the scene in question, that would mean Dean would have had to all of a sudden decide that joining the BMoL was the bestest idea ever! first. I don't think that would happen, because I don't think the writers would ever have Dean do something that non-sensical and stupid. Apparently post Carver, it's generally Sam who does things that stupid.

And as I said earlier, Sam was due a big moment. I just wish it could've ended on a note where Sam actually got to do something heroic - in my opinion, since to me that was not it, and I didn't miss the little dig of "oh is you're brother coming?" to undermine Sam's supposed "big moment." - but hey, at least Sam didn't cause another apocalypse. Lately that's considered a win. I'm not holding out hope for this year, though.

[Wayward Son]

2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

But anyway, it's probably just as well, because even though some here would have seen the trials as maybe being cathartic for Dean, I could also see the complaints that of course Dean didn't finish them, so the whole storyline was pretty much a non-entity no matter who did them... so yeah shit storytelling all around in my opinion.

I agree with this! I can understand why many Dean fans are unhappy the trials went to Sam, but I also think if they had gone to Dean this thread would now be filled with comments along the lines of “Of course it’s Dean’s mytharc that is never completed and becomes a non-entity”.

[Jeddah]

5 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

I agree with this! I can understand why many Dean fans are unhappy the trials went to Sam, but I also think if they had gone to Dean this thread would now be filled with comments along the lines of “Of course it’s Dean’s mytharc that is never completed and becomes a non-entity”.

I’ve always felt that way about the complaints that Dean became Sam’s caretaker because of the trials. If the roles were switched there probably would have been complaints that the show made Dean look weak by having Sam take care of him, and that Sam got to look like a saint for taking care of his brother.

[Pondlass1]

So long as there are two tall, handsome brothers both different, both portraying a truckload of issues - the fandom is going to pick a brother then argue and debate.  It's the best marketing tool ever.  

[Jeddah]

34 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

So long as there are two tall, handsome brothers both different, both portraying a truckload of issues - the fandom is going to pick a brother then argue and debate.  It's the best marketing tool ever.  

The Winchesters have certainly taken this to a whole new level! I don’t think The OC, Vampire Diaries, or The Originals fandoms have this level of debate, and those are definitely shows with handsome brothers with truckloads of issues.

[Myrelle]

Re-"Even banged up, Sammy still comes through" a line from the s8 episode Clip Show.

If I had to guess, I'd say that it was lines and scenes like this that finally motivated Jensen to at long last have a few words with the writers about the material that he was being given for his character, especially as it was shown clear as day that Sam didn't come through for Dean at all in the first half of the same season.

S8. What a horrific writing mess, IMO-moreso the second half(again IMO) and this predominantly because of how it impacted the first half by rendering it pretty much moot and useless(as if their viewing audience would forget all that went on in the first half<insert eye roll>)-until they had to bring Benny back, just to do away with him for good, that is.

Edited October 25, 2017 by Myrelle

[Aeryn13]

Quote

And I would have been happier if Sam got the cool well-written emotional scene,

And I didn`t find it well-written either, in fact, there is little about this scene`s dialogue I liked. So, the scene, on top of being a consolation prize in my book, didn`t even have that going for it.

Quote

I’ve always felt that way about the complaints that Dean became Sam’s caretaker because of the trials. If the roles were switched there probably would have been complaints that the show made Dean look weak by having Sam take care of him, and that Sam got to look like a saint for taking care of his brother.

Dean still would have been strong enough to kick ass when it counted, hop-skip through Purgatory like it was nothing, even get a quick kill in and rescue a soul from hell all alone. Allthewhile having the trial sickness. He would have kicked Abaddon`s ass despite the trial sickness. Crowley would have pointed out like he only wanted Dean`s signature (aka the important one) when they trapped him. And so on and so forth. He would have been the one to save his brother and Charlie, proving that he was indeed ready and able, only having problems with his health when it wasn`t really an inconvenience. And he would have been able to kill a hellhound and not, after a year in Purgatory, needed to be rescued by Sam after a year of civilian life.

Meanwhile Sam would have been reduced to an unwanted and unneeded, clingy nursemaid who had to beg their brother to allow them to take care of him. Drawing ice baths and bringing sandwiches. I found this all so undignified, at best I would have pitied Sam for being forced so low. 

So nope, the role reversal itself would have given me much better material for Dean in my eyes. 

The conclusion of the trial storyline, okay, fair point, that would have been annoying. Though Dean still would have gotten a pimping speech from Death and half a year of arc of angel possession out of it.

We`re talking at a point here where I was so starved for Dean having a storyline - going to hell was kinda meh in its presentation and the entire Michael vessel turned out to be a gigantic red herring and Purgatory was disappointingly dropped for him after 2 episodes so to me by Season 8 - I had NEVER had a Dean storyline to my liking in the entire of the show.      

That`s why First Born and the Mark of Cain was a lifeline. I always thought it was gonna be "bad", I mean the entire set-up was that it was a big mistake and would lead to darkness (figuratively at this point, the writers only pulled that out of their asses by the Season 10 Finale). But I didn`t care one whit, it was more than nothing. And to their credit, it actually had an entire arc with a conclusion. Am I still disappointed with a lot of the execution? Yes. I wanted about 100 % more pomp and flash out of the Mark itself, about 500 % more badassery, screentime and POWERS out of the demon!Dean-story and about 200 % more delving into and playing up the connection with Amara. And largely about 800 % more flash and pomp for the concluding Season Finale of Season 11. 

But Season 12.B taught me what it looks like when they not only give him no story (that was the case in Seasons 1 and 2 as well) but also take his badassery away completely (even Season 6.A and 8.B weren`t that bad) , take all his good character traits and vibrancy away and just make him valium!Dean. Like, ALL bad things combined in one horrible half Season. Yikes.   

Quote

The Winchesters have certainly taken this to a whole new level! I don’t think The OC, Vampire Diaries, or The Originals fandoms have this level of debate, and those are definitely shows with handsome brothers with truckloads of issues.

Those other shows (and lots of other shows) have their wars on another turf:  namely shipper wars. Stelena vs. Delena has been every bit as vicious, counting of scenes and argumentative as any Dean vs. Sam. The characters of Damon and Stefan were weighed and compared till kingdom come, yet it was mostly done in context of whose ship was more deserving of endgame.  

Over on the Originals, Klaus came with Klaroline shippers and the show created Klamille shippers and those wars are still being waged. 

Supernatural has parts of that as well with Destiel vs. Wincest but neither are big onscreen canon couples (or those that will legitimately end up this way) and it has a small cast of two males. Who the writers love to play the zero sum game with.

It would be different if it was a male and a female, even if they were still siblings. Then it would be written and even compared differently. With no familial relations, it would be a romantic ship. Mulder and Scully were either shipped or friend-shipped back in the day, that is a wholly different ballgame than this. 

[Wayward Son]

14 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'm 100% sure at least one of us is going to be justified if blame is laid on anyone besides where it belongs: on Lucifer or Jack himself. I'm also 100% sure if blame is gonna be laid it will be on anyone but Sam. Not that it is Sam's fault - yes, he stopped Dean from shooting him, but we know that he couldn't have killed him that way, or any other way at this point. But however this shakes out, Sam's not coming out smelling like anything but candy flavored roses. This is Sam's season of redemption and justification for S8. Mark my words (and I'll eat them publicly if proven wrong).

S13 Speculation. There are no spoilers just spec based on the episodes so far. 

Spoiler

I agree that if Jack turns evil Sam will escape the situation relatively unscathed (in terms of culpability). However, I also think Dean won’t fare much worse than Sam. That’s just not Dabb’s MO IMO. He prefers to use secondary characters to push the arc along and allow them to be the ones to blame rather than the boys. And if they are to blame it’s minor compared to said secondary character.

 

So far he’s 

• Laid minor blame on Sam for going into Lucifer’s cage without Dean. However, Sam got a big character moment and the blame was shifted to Castiel who did much worse by allowing Lucifer to get out willingly.
• Sam got some of the blame for willingly working with the man of letters and to a lesser extent Dean who also worked with them. However, their actions were far, far less than the stuff Mary did willingly with the BMOLs. 
• Team Free Will worked together to put Lucifer back in the pit, but Crowley’s actions prevented that and led to the nephilim storyline. 
• Castiel was influenced by unborn Jack and aided in the task of ensuring he was born. So if Jack goes bad there’s a large portion of the blame on Castiel already.

 

If this were still the Carver show I could see the blame lying with Sam and/or Dean, but since it’s the Dabb show I can confidently state it’ll be Cas fault and if not his some other secondary character.

Edited October 25, 2017 by Wayward Son

[ILoveReading]

I know they are setting Dean up for a major fall because his valid view points are often invalidated but I'll enjoy it while it lasts.

Goes back and watches first and last season again. 

[flyinghigh]

On 10/24/2017 at 4:56 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

As seen on screen, Sam took on the trials because Dean saw it as a suicide mission while Sam saw the bright and shining light at the end of the tunnel. Remember, the one he was going to show Dean? That's why Sam being so ready to die at the end that he disowned his brother, claimed no upside to being alive, and disavowed Dean's raison d'etre made so much sense. Oy.

(In case it isn't obvious, yes, that is sarcasm)

Got it! ( ear to ear smiling and nodding - at the same time!!) Thanks.

 

On 10/24/2017 at 11:16 PM, catrox14 said:

And they are getting lit up on Twitter for it lol

[gonzosgirrl]

Anyone care to speculate on why they are framing Sam looking down on/looming over Dean so much lately? The perspective in the 12x01 scene when Dean & Jack are on the couch and Sam is in the chair was weird, but this (from the fight last night) is just plain bizarre. On Jensen's coverage, he looks about a foot shorter than Jared, but on Jared's coverage, it more closely reflects their actual height difference.

[Pondlass1]

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

. On Jensen's coverage, he looks about a foot shorter than Jared,

I pointed this out in Patience thread.  It was so odd. There's 3 inches difference - but yeah... looks like a foot.

[ILoveReading]

9 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Anyone care to speculate on why they are framing Sam looking down on/looming over Dean so much lately? The perspective in the 12x01 scene when Dean & Jack are on the couch and Sam is in the chair was weird, but this (from the fight last night) is just plain bizarre. On Jensen's coverage, he looks about a foot shorter than Jared, but on Jared's coverage, it more closely reflects their actual height difference.

Because I believe the show really sees Sam as having the superior position.  I mentioned it in the bitterness spoiler thread.    They're trying to present Sam as some kind of saint where as Dean is a mean old meany.  They're doing this through framing, dialogue and expressions.  It's why I can't fully enjoy last nights episode because I know Dean will be made to pay for it in a major way.

Edited October 27, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Myrelle]

7 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Anyone care to speculate on why they are framing Sam looking down on/looming over Dean so much lately? The perspective in the 12x01 scene when Dean & Jack are on the couch and Sam is in the chair was weird, but this (from the fight last night) is just plain bizarre.

Either they are going for Sam's thinking is just that much higher than Dean's(Buck-Lemming would agree with this, I think) or they're going for Sam is getting up on his high horse again, as I've seen speculated, too.

[Pondlass1]

Sam's "he's off his meds again" condescending look drives me up the wall.  But this perspective, with Sam towering over a raging hurt Dean (who's actually making a lot of sense if you ask me) ... well, I guess it's purposeful? :(

[Myrelle]

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Because I believe the show really sees Sam as having the superior position.  I mentioned it in the bitterness spoiler thread.    They're trying to present Sam as some kind of saint where as Dean is a mean old meany.  They're doing this through framing, dialogue and expressions.  It's why I can't fully enjoy last nights episode because I know Dean will be made to pay for it in a major way.

Yeah, I'm thinking this also, but the acting from both main characters is undermining it, IMO. I'm not seeing Sam in a leadership role either, but JP does and said so in interviews.

Unfortunately, Jensen can only do so much and when they want to put the hammer down, they will, and there won't be much he can do about it because I'm sure it will involve more apologizing and taking on of guilt, guilt, guilt with either ValiumDean or DoormatDean or both showing up again-just like last season. And those episodes are the ones that will be skipped in my house.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, Pondlass1 said:

Sam's "he's off his meds again" condescending look drives me up the wall.  But this perspective, with Sam towering over a raging hurt Dean (who's actually making a lot of sense if you ask me) ... well, I guess it's purposeful? :(

I wish someone from the show would answer this, or that someone at a con had the nerve to ask Jensen and Jared if they are aware of it. It's a clear filming choice by whoever is in charge - the director of photography? the episode director who calls the shots? -  so I would love to hear their explanation.