“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[DittyDotDot]

27 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I think it's as much "official" as any of the officially-sanctioned SPN novels (which is to say, doesn't have much to do with canon, but WB OK'd it  and they're listed as copyright/TM owners.)  If you click on the Amazon link I gave above, you can see the first few pages (and the copyright info).  And yes, it does say "1983" in big letters at the top of the first page, and the first two entries are Nov. 16 and Nov. 19, and IA that it was too soon for John to be full-on hunter (and Dean to talk, and them to be at the roadhouse, or any of the other things they discussed.)  IMO, the only thing that's accurate was the first line, which was "I went to Missouri, and learned the truth."  

You can buy it on Kindle for $1.99, or a used paperback copy for $2.84 (plus shipping.)

ETA: It was originally published in 2009 by an imprint of Harper-Collins, not self-published like ff, so that does show it was at least OK'd by WB.  The same author also wrote "The SPN Book of Monsters, Spirits, Demons and Ghouls."  

Like I said, I'm aware of the book. I just think of it more as fan fiction. Which isn't to say that it's not a good and interesting read or that it should be totally discounted, but I can't say the show has rewritten John's journal based on this book where someone outside of the show has embellished part here and there. I would imagine the journal has been added to and expand over the years, though, but I'm not sure they've actually changed the previous pages, myself.

And, I'm not saying the diaries pieces I linked to should be taken as show canon either. They do seem to line up with the show canon a lot more and they were produced by the show itself, and might shed light on their original intentions--which I think are interesting--but most of it was never seen on screen, so... .

Edited September 26, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Bessie]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 

Despite never having his mother, or any memories of her, Sam still ended up well adjusted enough to get through school with excellent grades, good enough to get a full ride to Stanford.  Did he decide before high school that he wanted to go to college so he pressed hard on his academics? How did he hunt whilst doing all his homework and cramming for the SAT and taking a college entrance exam. When did he find time to do all of that? That's one thing that I think Kripke really over shot with Sam. LOL.

 

He may have overshot a bit. But, I think Sam's relentlessness in pursuit of a goal has been a consistent character trait throughout the series. For both good and bad. 

[Katy M]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Despite never having his mother, or any memories of her, Sam still ended up well adjusted enough to get through school with excellent grades, good enough to get a full ride to Stanford.  Did he decide before high school that he wanted to go to college so he pressed hard on his academics? How did he hunt whilst doing all his homework and cramming for the SAT and taking a college entrance exam. When did he find time to do all of that? That's one thing that I think Kripke really over shot with Sam. LOL.

That and if he was switching schools every month, how did he keep up.  It's not like there's a national schedule of "Kids in this grade are going to be taking these classes and learning x,y, and z in a certain order and on a time frame."  Switching schools once is hard enough, especially in junior high and beyond, but several times every year?  I dont even know how the schools would calculate his grades, much less figure out he had a 4.0. 

But, given the fact that he did have that 4.0 and moving around, unlike others, I'm more likely to buy the full-ride scholarship.  They aren't as freely given out as SPN makes it seem (as I think I remember at least two other characters getting full rides, one of them being the girl that got killed in Hell House).  But, colleges do love a good sob story and the ability to get all A's (however that worked) while moving around so much is pretty darned impressive. I am less hopeful than he was of him getting a full-ride to law school, though.  Geeze, Sam, get a job.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Despite never having his mother, or any memories of her, Sam still ended up well adjusted enough to get through school with excellent grades, good enough to get a full ride to Stanford.  Did he decide before high school that he wanted to go to college so he pressed hard on his academics? How did he hunt whilst doing all his homework and cramming for the SAT and taking a college entrance exam. When did he find time to do all of that? That's one thing that I think Kripke really over shot with Sam. LOL.

Fwiw - you don't particularly have to be "well adjusted" to get good grades or a full ride scholarship.  ::shrugs::  Else, how do you explain campus shooters?

[Bessie]

4 minutes ago, Katy M said:

That and if he was switching schools every month, how did he keep up.

I don't have an issue with that. He's been characterized as pretty intelligent. But why wouldn't someone at some school along the way have taken issue with a kid who has 5 million transcripts from different schools by the age of sixteen? You'd think it would raise a red flag somewhere along the line. 

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, Bessie said:

He may have overshot a bit. But, I think Sam's relentlessness in pursuit of a goal has been a consistent character trait throughout the series. For both good and bad. 

I agree that he's obsessive for sure, I just wondered the logistics of it. I mean scoring a full ride to Stanford is no small feat.

[trxr4kids]

20 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

When did he find time to do all of that? That's one thing that I think Kripke really over shot with Sam. LOL.

I've always thought it made no sense if they did move as much as stated. There's logistically no way his transcripts could keep up with him if they moved 4 times a school year. Not to mention schools have there own curriculum and it's not uniform in any one town, let alone a whole state or the entire country, meaning it would have been easy for Sam to  repeat subjects as well as miss some.

[Katy M]

8 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

I've always thought it made no sense if they did move as much as stated. There's logistically no way his transcripts could keep up with him if they moved 4 times a school year. Not to mention schools have there own curriculum and it's not uniform in any one town, let alone a whole state or the entire country, meaning it would have been easy for Sam to  repeat subjects as well as miss some.

My point exactly.  

[trxr4kids]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

You can buy it on Kindle for $1.99, or a used paperback copy for $2.84 (plus shipping.)

I spent the 1.99 and I'll read it later, it'll be interesting, cannon or not, so thanks for the link. : ) 

[catrox14]

25 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Fwiw - you don't particularly have to be "well adjusted" to get good grades or a full ride scholarship.  ::shrugs::  Else, how do you explain campus shooters?

I didn't say he was well adjusted, I said "well adjusted enough" to score that full ride. I really have no idea how you got from my comment to school shooters, especially since neither Dean nor Sam ended up doing that, I'm failing to see the relevance to what I said.  But more importantly for me personally, I grew up in Colorado and my brother, who is a retired teacher, knew the teacher that was murdered at Columbine, so it's a touchy subject for me that I will bow out of that part of the discussion.

[companionenvy]

I've just accepted by now that the logistics of Sam and Dean's childhood really don't add up, on a lot of levels.  But my issue is less with Sam getting accepted by Stanford than with what story he told in his application.

 I do think a school who heard an exceptional story would be willing to work with a student who, through no fault of his own, lacked certain academic credentials. I knew a student at an elite college who hadn't graduated high school at all - she was a child musical prodigy, and had spent her teen years touring. She'd been home-schooled, but it didn't amount to anything like a standard education. I think she had to take extra SAT subject tests to prove her stuff.  I'd bet a school would be equally flexible in a hardship case. So, I'm willing to accept that if Sam had a lot of great test scores, Stanford would have overlooked the rest. Sam might even have gotten a GED at some point, which would replace the wonky transcripts. I think you can take the test without actually attending a class. Sam might also have presented forged but fundamentally honest transcripts that consolidated several schools into one. In terms of making sure he had covered all the materials, in my experience, if a kid transfers to an out of district high school, they don't just plop him into whatever their default 10th grade math class is. If the kid started the year in geometry, they put him in geometry, even if that's regularly a 9th grade course in that district. So, as long as Sam kept track of what he was supposed to be learning, he would have been OK - although it would have required extraordinary dedication.

The question is what he would have told Stanford to explain away what would have had to at least be a non-traditional record and warrant the full scholarship. Did he totally make something up, or did he hew to a version of the truth minus the supernatural aspect (i.e, dead mom, alcoholic, absentee dad that moved them around for "work")?  I think it would give fascinating insight into Sam's mindset at that point to see what his edited take on the family story looked like.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, companionenvy said:

The question is what he would have told Stanford to explain away what would have had to at least be a non-traditional record and warrant the full scholarship. Did he totally make something up, or did he hew to a version of the truth minus the supernatural aspect (i.e, dead mom, alcoholic, absentee dad that moved them around for "work")?  I think it would give fascinating insight into Sam's mindset at that point to see what his edited take on the family story looked like.

Heh, that would be interesting. I'd like to see that flashback.  I've always presumed that Sam graduated with a high school diploma. We know that Dean earned a GED because he straight up dropped out.  wonder how Dean would score on the SAT. 

[Katy M]

4 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

The question is what he would have told Stanford to explain away what would have had to at least be a non-traditional record and warrant the full scholarship. Did he totally make something up, or did he hew to a version of the truth minus the supernatural aspect (i.e, dead mom, alcoholic, absentee dad that moved them around for "work")?  I think it would give fascinating insight into Sam's mindset at that point to see what his edited take on the family story looked like.

I would have told them "my mom died and my dad went off the rails and we were always trying to stay one step ahead of of the cops."  Because they were probably were.  You do bring up an interesting point, though.  A school like Stanford isn't going to admit someone without an interview.  Did they just happen to be in CA at an opportune moment, or did Sam have to make up a story for his dad and DEan to get away for that, or did he sneak off while they were on a hunt.

[Bessie]

6 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

Did he totally make something up, or did he hew to a version of the truth minus the supernatural aspect (i.e, dead mom, alcoholic, absentee dad that moved them around for "work")? 

That's what I always figured. Which would've helped him get the full ride. 

[DittyDotDot]

39 minutes ago, Bessie said:

I don't have an issue with that. He's been characterized as pretty intelligent. But why wouldn't someone at some school along the way have taken issue with a kid who has 5 million transcripts from different schools by the age of sixteen? You'd think it would raise a red flag somewhere along the line. 

Eh, I figure John would go sign them up and tell them he'll have their records sent over, but they'd move on to the next town before the school got too antsy about it. It stretches credulity, but I think it's not that unbelievable.

Edited September 26, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[RulerofallIsurvey]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I didn't say he was well adjusted, I said "well adjusted enough" to score that full ride. I really have no idea how you got from my comment to school shooters, especially since neither Dean nor Sam ended up doing that, I'm failing to see the relevance to what I said.  But more importantly for me personally, I grew up in Colorado and my brother, who is a retired teacher, knew the teacher that was murdered at Columbine, so it's a touchy subject for me that I will bow out of that part of the discussion.

It was just a comment.  I wasn't trying to be argumentative.  I had no idea about your connection to Columbine, so I apologize for bring up bad memories for you.  

[catrox14]

Just now, DittyDotDot said:

Eh, I figure John would go sign them up and tell them he'll have their records sent over, but they'd move on to the next town before the school got too antsy about it. It stretches credulity, but it used to be easier to enroll your kids in school back in the 80s.

Sometimes I think Kripke envisioned Sam and Dean going to school in the 70s instead of the 80s. Like in the 60s and 70s you just walked into a school and said "Here's my kid", here's my address and boom you were enrolled. I think that changed alot in the 80s

1 minute ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

It was just a comment.  I wasn't trying to be argumentative.  I had no idea about your connection to Columbine, so I apologize for bring up bad memories for you.  

You wouldn't have known, just letting you know why I wasn't going to engage in that part of the discussion further.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

You wouldn't have known, just letting you know why I wasn't going to engage in that part of the discussion further.

No problem. 

[DittyDotDot]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sometimes I think Kripke envisioned Sam and Dean going to school in the 70s instead of the 80s. Like in the 60s and 70s you just walked into a school and said "Here's my kid", here's my address and boom you were enrolled. I think that changed alot in the 80s

Oh, I don't know, I remember it being pretty easy in the '80s too. The internet was in it's infancy in the late '80s and most the small schools they tended to roll in and out of wouldn't have had those resources until the 90s. So, these records would've had to have been snail mailed so I can imagine they were more patient than they are these days.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Despite never having his mother, or any memories of her, Sam still ended up well adjusted enough to get through school with excellent grades, good enough to get a full ride to Stanford.  Did he decide before high school that he wanted to go to college so he pressed hard on his academics? How did he hunt whilst doing all his homework and cramming for the SAT and taking a college entrance exam. When did he find time to do all of that? That's one thing that I think Kripke really over shot with Sam. LOL.

Sam's a genius. Just ask him Dean.

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Oh, I don't know, I remember it being pretty easy in the '80s too. The internet was in it's infancy in the late '80s and most the small schools they tended to roll in and out of wouldn't have had those resources until the 90s. So, these records would've had to have been snail mailed so I can imagine they were more patient than they are these days.

That's probably true. I was thinking of larger schools. But I still think Kripke was kind of living in the 70s with the show to an extent not just music wise.

[DittyDotDot]

Just now, catrox14 said:

That's probably true. I was thinking of larger schools. But I still think Kripke was kind of living in the 70s with the show to an extent not just music wise.

Oh, there's definitely a timeless quality to the show, and I agree, I think Kripke was channeling his own childhood more than the real timeline of the show. But, that's one of it's many charms, IMO.

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Oh, there's definitely a timeless quality to the show, and I agree, I think Kripke was channeling his own childhood more than the real timeline of the show. But, that's one of it's many charms, IMO.

Oh yeah it wasn't a complaint on my part.

[companionenvy]

37 minutes ago, Katy M said:

A school like Stanford isn't going to admit someone without an interview.

Actually, they do (I work in higher ed), and precisely because it would disadvantage students without the means to travel. Most top schools do not offer, let alone require, meetings with admissions representatives on campus. They will often strongly recommend an alumni interview with an alum in your region, although these meetings play a minimal role in admissions, and are as much to sell the school to applicants as anything else. If you live in an area without many alumni reps, it won't be held against you. 

 

44 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

wonder how Dean would score on the SAT. 

My guess? Not fantastic, but better than expected (given his education) in English; abysmally in math. Dean (as we know) DOES read, and while Sam may have done more of the research, part of the hunting life is reading arcane lore. This should have given him a pretty reasonable vocabulary and the ability to comprehend passages that might have seemed old-fashioned or verbose to the average 17-year old. He's also naturally smart enough that I think as long as he had some idea of the words involved, he would have done fairly well on things like analogies, which were part of the test back then. Doing well in math would be more tied to what you learned in school, and unlike Sam, I doubt Dean was being highly scrupulous at keeping up with his academics. I think SAT math is significantly harder than what you need for a GED, so I suspect Dean simply wouldn't have learned more than pretty elementary algebra and geometry. Of course, Dean might also have done worse than he should have because of confidence issues.

I think I've given this WAY too much thought...

[auntvi]

4 hours ago, companionenvy said:

Dean also (more than Sam) feels that the weight of the world rests on his shoulders. Sam also had some time both physically(the Stanford years) and emotionally (because he allowed himself to resent John) to define himself in ways other than his role as a hunter and within the family. Dean didn't get to do that. That's not to say Sam isn't scarred by childhood-- his childhood certainly contributes to the rage issues he's dealt with -- but I think it is to a different degree than Dean.

One factor that hasn't been mentioned is Sam's demon blood, and after John discovered it how it colored the way he treated Sam. In season 8 Sam says that he's felt impure or damaged or somehow wrong for as long as he can remember. I don't know when John discovered Azazel and the demon blood, but he apparently knew it before Sam left for Stanford. John's "save him or kill him" mindset must have affected the way he felt about and treated Sam, and Sam must have felt his father's ambivalence.

 

1 hour ago, Bessie said:

Despite never having his mother, or any memories of her, Sam still ended up well adjusted enough to get through school with excellent grades, good enough to get a full ride to Stanford.  Did he decide before high school that he wanted to go to college so he pressed hard on his academics? How did he hunt whilst doing all his homework and cramming for the SAT and taking a college entrance exam. When did he find time to do all of that? That's one thing that I think Kripke really over shot with Sam. LOL.

Like someone else said, good grades definitely doesn't equal well adjusted! Sam probably worked hard in school to overcome his feelings of being somehow evil. Good grades were his ticket out - at least that was his hope.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, auntvi said:

One factor that hasn't been mentioned is Sam's demon blood, and after John discovered it how it colored the way he treated Sam. In season 8 Sam says that he's felt impure or damaged or somehow wrong for as long as he can remember. I don't know when John discovered Azazel and the demon blood, but he apparently knew it before Sam left for Stanford. John's "save him or kill him" mindset must have affected the way he felt about and treated Sam, and Sam must have felt his father's ambivalence.

 

Like someone else said, good grades definitely doesn't equal well adjusted! Sam probably worked hard in school to overcome his feelings of being somehow evil. Good grades were his ticket out - at least that was his hope.

I'm a little confused by this. Sam didn't know anything about his demon blood stuff until he was already in college. Why would he think he was evil prior to that?

Also the quote you quoted was mine and I said "well adjusted enough" to get a scholarship. Not that he was well adjusted. It is a distinct difference in how my comment seems to be interpreted.

[DittyDotDot]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm a little confused by this. Sam didn't know anything about his demon blood stuff until he was already in college. Why would he think he was evil prior to that?

I always thought part of Sam being a lonely kid wasn't because of his weirdo family or that he was literally alone, but that he felt, deep down, that he was "wrong" somehow. So, I don't think it was specifically that he knew he'd been tainted with demon blood, but somehow he felt...I think he said, unclean or impure.

[auntvi]

@catrox14  Sorry about the quote - I should have copied from your original instead of Bessie's copy. This thread is too confusing.

14 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sam didn't know anything about his demon blood stuff until he was already in college. Why would he think he was evil prior to that?

Sam says toward the end of S. 8 that he remembers being very young and reading a book about King Arthur & the knights of the round table. He "knew" even then that he wasn't pure enough to be part of the round table. He didn't know that Azazel had bled into his mouth when he was 6 mos old, but he knew there was something seriously wrong inside.

 

ETA: like DittyDotDot said

Edited September 26, 2017 by auntvi

[catrox14]

Thats different than him thinking he was evil. Also wasn't that what the trials were doing to him? Not that he really thought he was evil his whole life?  Being lonely and feeling like a freak is pretty typical teenage stuff amplified by his weird life to me doesn't equate to Sam thinking he was evil. But maybe I'm not following the path well

[DeeDee79]

8 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

And there have been just as much posts stating that Dean had it harder than Sam.  

Yes, I’m quite aware of that which is why I responded to a post that was basically making this same statement.

[catrox14]

I guess to me I've always taken what was being said bybSam when he was going through the trials as somewhat suspect and that it was the process making him believe things about himself that weren't really factual. I can see him retroactively thinking he always thought he was wrong because of the trials but not that he thought that when he was a teenager.

[DittyDotDot]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Thats different than him thinking he was evil. Also wasn't that what the trials were doing to him? Not that he really thought he was evil his whole life?  Being lonely and feeling like a freak is pretty typical teenage stuff amplified by his weird life to me doesn't equate to Sam thinking he was evil. But maybe I'm not following the path well

I don't know that he felt he was "evil" but that even when he was a kid he knew he was different than everyone around him somehow. I think that's part of why he yearned for normal so much; he wanted to feel like he was just like everyone else not like he was different than them.

But, anyway, yes, the trials were making his memories more clear, but the memory was real, IMO. He clearly says that he remembers feeling wrong even when he was very small. Whether that was because he himself sensed there was something in him or if it was something that got into his subconscious from something John did or said, who knows. It's hard to say when exactly John knew about the demon blood, but IMO, part of the reason John was always so concerned and worried about Sam was because he knew something had come for Sam that night. I think John was just waiting for the day he might have to kill his own son.

[auntvi]

3 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

It's hard to say when exactly John knew about the demon blood, but IMO, part of the reason John was always so concerned and worried about Sam was because he knew something had come for Sam that night. I think John was just waiting for the day he might have to kill his own son.

Yes. That's gotta do great things for the father-son relationship.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

18 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Yes, I’m quite aware of that which is why I responded to a post that was basically making this same statement.

Gotcha.

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

. I think John was just waiting for the day he might have to kill his own son.

Which John conveniently put on Dean's shoulders before trading his soul for Dean's life. LOL What an asshole.

6 minutes ago, auntvi said:

Yes. That's gotta do great things for the father-son relationship.

It's interesting to me because as much as John may have been worried about having to kill his own son, he still drove to Stanford to check on Sam and I presume it wasn't just because he thought he'd go dark side. And he was really protective of Sammy in Something Wicked. At what point do you suspect John became aware that his son might be evil?

[trxr4kids]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Which John conveniently put on Dean's shoulders before trading his soul for Dean's life. LOL What an asshole.

After he apologized for putting too much on him. John always makes me scratch my head and and wtf.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

After he apologized for putting too much on him. John always makes me scratch my head and and wtf.

 IMO that was John freeing himself of his guilt before dying, and reminding Dean of what a good obedient son he had been just to set him up for the next responsibility he was getting rid of .

I really hate John.

[Katy M]

12 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It's interesting to me because as much as John may have been worried about having to kill his own son, he still drove to Stanford to check on Sam and I presume it wasn't just because he thought he'd go dark side. And he was really protective of Sammy in Something Wicked. At what point do you suspect John became aware that his son might be evil?

I'm going to go against the grain on this (I know shocker) and say that I don't think John knew about much pertaining to the demon and/or Sam until shortly before the PIlot.

 

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 IMO that was John freeing himself of his guilt before dying, and reminding Dean of what a good obedient son he had been just to set him up for the next responsibility he was getting rid of .

I really hate John.

I think John was wrong to sell his soul, just like I think it's been wrong every time it's been done on the show. And, I think his main motivation was to save Dean, but I think he may also have considered the fact that he wouldn't have to kill Sam this way.  But, I also think he meant his apology. And, if John had really wanted to win the worst father of the millennium award, he could have put that on Dean a year earlier when he disappeared and then just stayed out of their lives for good.  

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I think John was wrong to sell his soul, just like I think it's been wrong every time it's been done on the show. And, I think his main motivation was to save Dean, but I think he may also have considered the fact that he wouldn't have to kill Sam this way.  But, I also think he meant his apology. And, if John had really wanted to win the worst father of the millennium award, he could have put that on Dean a year earlier when he disappeared and then just stayed out of their lives for good.  

Oh of course his main motivation was to save Dean. I wasn't implying otherwise. And I also think he meant the apology and he was freeing himself of guilt, as much it was still setting Dean up for the next hit. John was a contradictory fuck, I always say.

Edited September 26, 2017 by catrox14

[gonzosgirrl]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 IMO that was John freeing himself of his guilt before dying, and reminding Dean of what a good obedient son he had been just to set him up for the next responsibility he was getting rid of .

I really hate John.

Ditto. And for me the bottom line when it comes to which one had it harder is, Sam had Dean (and apparently Sully o_O), Dean had no one. John's (ostensibly) dying words confirm that Dean was the one supporting his father and caring for his brother. IDGAF if he got the crusts cut off his sandwiches until he was four, that got pretty much erased each and every day from Mary's death onward. Nobody protected his childhood.

[ahrtee]

7 minutes ago, Katy M said:

And, if John had really wanted to win the worst father of the millennium award, he could have put that on Dean a year earlier when he disappeared and then just stayed out of their lives for good.  

Just playing devil's advocate here, maybe he thought if he found and killed Azazel, Sam's "destiny" wouldn't happen and no one would have to kill him.  Therefore, by leaving Dean and taking after Yellow Eyes, he was really trying to save Sam.  

Maybe.

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Just playing devil's advocate here, maybe he thought if he found and killed Azazel, Sam's "destiny" wouldn't happen and no one would have to kill him.  Therefore, by leaving Dean and taking after Yellow Eyes, he was really trying to save Sam.  

Maybe.

Are you saying find Azazel in Hell? I don't understand?

[ahrtee]

Just now, catrox14 said:

Are you saying find Azazel in Hell? I don't understand?

John took off on Dean when he finally picked up Azazel's trail after 20+ years.  Ol' yellow eyes had started seeding the next generation of special kids (like Rosie) so John finally had a trail to follow (and hopefully would be able to kill him before Sam turned bad.)  Or that's a theory, anyway.

[trxr4kids]

30 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It's interesting to me because as much as John may have been worried about having to kill his own son, he still drove to Stanford to check on Sam and I presume it wasn't just because he thought he'd go dark side

One of the many reasons I have a hard time wrapping my head around John's actions is if he was checking on Sam at Stanford he would have known about Jessica and if he disappeared because he was getting too close to Azazel with his super demon tracking abilities, it seems like he should have noticed the signs (that they talked about with Ash, cattle mutilation, electrical storms) and realized, oh shit, Sam or Sam's girl is in danger or oh shit Sam's gone bad and he's responsible for the signs/omens.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, ahrtee said:

John took off on Dean when he finally picked up Azazel's trail after 20+ years.  Ol' yellow eyes had started seeding the next generation of special kids (like Rosie) so John finally had a trail to follow (and hopefully would be able to kill him before Sam turned bad.)  Or that's a theory, anyway.

I'm sorry, I feel like I'm being dense. Are you saying that John telling Dean he would have to save Sam or kill Sam before he died was him giving that trail to Dean?

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, trxr4kids said:

One of the many reasons I have a hard time wrapping my head around John's actions is if he was checking on Sam at Stanford he would have known about Jessica and if he disappeared because he was getting too close to Azazel with his super demon tracking abilities, it seems like he should have noticed the signs (that they talked about with Ash, cattle mutilation, electrical storms) and realized, oh shit, Sam or Sam's girl is in danger or oh shit Sam's gone bad and he's responsible for the signs/omens.

As I recall, John did notice the signs, but he was always too late to do anything.

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, trxr4kids said:

One of the many reasons I have a hard time wrapping my head around John's actions is if he was checking on Sam at Stanford he would have known about Jessica and if he disappeared because he was getting too close to Azazel with his super demon tracking abilities, it seems like he should have noticed the signs (that they talked about with Ash, cattle mutilation, electrical storms) and realized, oh shit, Sam or Sam's girl is in danger or oh shit Sam's gone bad and he's responsible for the signs/omens.

I think he said he didn't put the pattern together until later, and he did say, "and then I looked back and saw that the same signs were in Stanford before Jessica."  (paraphrased, because I'm too lazy to look up the exact wording right now.)

[ahrtee]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm sorry, I feel like I'm being dense. Are you saying that John telling Dean he would have to save Sam or kill Sam before he died was him giving that trail to Dean?

I think we're both getting confused.  I was suggesting that *maybe* John was trying to stop the whole "Sam's dark destiny" thing *before* it came down to killing him, by killing Azazel first, before Sam turned bad.  That's why he left Dean, because he finally had a trail to follow.  But since his main purpose in leaving Dean in the first place was to keep him *away* from the demon (he kept saying it was too dangerous for them to be on the hunt with him), I don't think he was telling Dean to take up the trail, or he would have given him at least a little more information to work with (like how to track him and why).  Frankly, I think if he told Dean the choice was killing Azazel or killing Sam, we know what would happen.  I think that once he realized he'd failed at killing Azazel, he was trying to make Dean keep himself and Sam as far away from the demon as possible, so he'd have to do the save-or-kill thing only as a last resort.  YMMV.  

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, ahrtee said:

I think we're both getting confused.  I was suggesting that *maybe* John was trying to stop the whole "Sam's dark destiny" thing *before* it came down to killing him, by killing Azazel first, before Sam turned bad.  That's why he left Dean, because he finally had a trail to follow.  But since his main purpose in leaving Dean in the first place was to keep him *away* from the demon (he kept saying it was too dangerous for them to be on the hunt with him), I don't think he was telling Dean to take up the trail, or he would have given him at least a little more information to work with (like how to track him and why).  Frankly, I think if he told Dean the choice was killing Azazel or killing Sam, we know what would happen.  I think that once he realized he'd failed at killing Azazel, he was trying to make Dean keep himself and Sam as far away from the demon as possible, so he'd have to do the save-or-kill thing only as a last resort.  YMMV.  

Ah. I gotcha.  So what do you think his motive was for telling Dean about the save or kill thing on his death bed and not really giving him anything to go on at that point?

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I think we're both getting confused.  I was suggesting that *maybe* John was trying to stop the whole "Sam's dark destiny" thing *before* it came down to killing him, by killing Azazel first, before Sam turned bad.

Oh, I'm sure he was.  I was just pointing out how John could be a worse father.