“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[ahrtee]

5 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Actually, No.   You can believe that if you want, of course.  But even the first time I watched that ep, I was neither angry at Dean nor anti-Dean.  I think my interpretation is rather more objective than yours.  I'm still not angry at Dean or anti-Dean, so really don't understand where that is coming from.  I just think the "we keep each other human" was more for Sam's benefit (so as not to lay too much guilt at Sam's feet and 'scare' him away), which is actually a very sympathetic and favorable interpretation towards Dean, imo.  In other words, my interpretation paints Dean as a savvier person (in how to approach Sam) than yours does.  

Sorry if I offended, but your post does not come across as objective, but as someone who is more or less anti-Dean, especially in context of the rest of the thread.  But again, YMMV and agree to disagree.  

Edited July 24, 2017 by ahrtee

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Yep, I'd take it.  I'd LOVE it.  Because what you consider being 'thrown to the side' was Dean getting the way more interesting (and critically lauded) scene of Dean going into Mary's mind to bring her out of her brainwashing while Sam being a 'real hero' was taking out the BMOL headquarters as a member of a team (not solo) - and Jody's the one who shot Ms. Headmistress, not Sam.  

Dean got to deliver that scene which, while highly emotional and beautifully acted by Jensen, was ultimately not about Dean, not really.  Dean's suffering was mentioned only as it related to Sam's suffering because Dean was burdened with an unfair role because of Mary's deal and he failed to protect Sam.  The thrust of that speech was about the tragedy that had befallen that innocent beautiful baby Sam, who had no idea what his life would become because of Mary's choices, juxtaposed with Grown Sam ascending to the rank of Hunter General Sam Winchester (General was Dabb's description, not mine). 

[gonzosgirrl]

29 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Your interpretation, from an angry-at-Dean (if not anti-Dean) perspective.  Remember, he told Alt!Dean that he was broken and horrible WELL BEFORE he faced Sam again.  And IMO (again, from a Dean fan perspective) he was afraid of turning into that kind of cold-blooded killer (just like he hated what the MoC was doing to him.)  Dean's sole sense of worth comes from saving people, and being the kind of person he was in The End or with the MoC is pretty much his nightmare, so much that he was willing to go into the Empty (or wherever) so he wouldn't inflict that on the world (and after he realize that even Sam couldn't prevent it).  So, no, not just lying to Sam.  We can agree to disagree.

So totally agree with you on this. It was at least as important, if not more-so, to Dean that he keep himself from turning into 'that guy'. They don't always spell things out in this show, but this is one time they did: "We keep each other human." No head-canon required.

[trxr4kids]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

To be fair, I haven't seen too many Dean fans quitting in disgust (though probably the ones that do just don't announce it.)  But all the discussions and complaints I've read seem to indicate that fans on both sides are still watching, even if it's "hate-watching" or eternal optimism that things may change.  

I'm still watching but not with the fervor I used to.  Most of the eps disappear from my mind as soon as the credits roll, but pretty much the only one I turned off in the middle and refused to watch even once is Bloodlines.    

I started ffwding eps in s6 and skipping eps in s7, I had high hopes for s8 and was so let down pretty much immediately that I continued skipping and ffwding, I read comments before I watch to decide if it's worth my time and frequently only watch to see if it's as bad as it sounds. I guess some would call it hate watching but in my mind I'm still following and watching partly because I really loved these characters and hope that I'll see a reflection of that in the writing here and there and partly because I'm a stubborn ass and want to watch it til the end.

ETA: I understand we all watch for different reasons and have different opinions on seasons, characters, writers etc. I'm not trying to ruin others enjoyment with my often snarky or aggressively negative opinion, sometimes it's just great to vent and read other like minded posts.

Edited July 24, 2017 by trxr4kids
added thoughts

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, trxr4kids said:

I started ffwding eps in s6 and skipping eps in s7, I had high hopes for s8 and was so let down pretty much immediately that I continued skipping and ffwding, I read comments before I watch to decide if it's worth my time and frequently only watch to see if it's as bad as it sounds. I guess some would call it hate watching but in my mind I'm still following and watching partly because I really loved these characters and hope that I'll see a reflection of that in the writing here and there and partly because I'm a stubborn ass and want to watch it til the end.

What generally kills a show for me is not anger (because that means I still care enough about the characters to get angry) but indifference/boredom.  The only show I quit while it was still on was Stargate SG1, after O'Neill left.  (I even hung on while they turned him into an idiot for the last few seasons, because they still had the "real" O'Neill show up once in a while, but after he left--nah.)  

[RulerofallIsurvey]

13 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Sorry if I offended, but your post does not come across as objective, but as someone who is more or less anti-Dean, especially in context of the rest of the thread.  But again, YMMV and agree to disagree.

Well, the post is only in this thread because that's where the discussion started and I didn't move it.  I really don't understand how you think that particular post of mine (granted there may be others which do qualify) as anti-Dean.  However, if your main criteria for that is the fact that my post is in this thread, then does yours automatically comes across as more or less anti-Sam due to the context of this thread?

[ahrtee]

Just now, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Well, the post is only in this thread because that's where the discussion started and I didn't move it.  I really don't understand how you think that particular post of mine (granted there may be others which do qualify) as anti-Dean.  However, if your main criteria for that is the fact that my post is in this thread, then does yours automatically comes across as more or less anti-Sam due to the context of this thread?

I was being too specific in "thread," meaning the particular conversation about "keeping me human."  Sorry if I was unclear.  It had nothing to do with where it was placed.  And this is actually the appropriate thread for anti-Sam or anti-Dean comments.  

It came across to me as a tad anti-Dean because, while I agreed that your opinion was valid but felt it was incomplete, you chose to disregard the rest of my comment explaining why Dean would feel he needed to be kept human as well and focused on him seeming to be condescending to Sam and ignoring his own role.   Again, JMO.  

[RulerofallIsurvey]

15 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

It came across to me as a tad anti-Dean because, while I agreed that your opinion was valid but felt it was incomplete, you chose to disregard the rest of my comment explaining why Dean would feel he needed to be kept human as well and focused on him seeming to be condescending to Sam and ignoring his own role.

Ah.  Well, I chose to ignore the rest of your comment explaining why Dean would feel that he needed to be kept human because I disagreed with it and so had nothing further to say on that!  You felt my interpretation was incomplete.   Okay.  I don't.  But that's not anti-Dean.  :)  

I guess I didn't explain very well that I don't think that Dean was being condescending toward Sam so much as smart.  (Although I did say I thought Dean was being smart a couple different times and ways, so I'm still not sure how that comes across as anti-Dean.)  I think it's kind of like crisis negotiator talking a jumper down off a ledge (probably not a good example, and one I'm sure someone will turn into something ugly about Dean and/or Sam which I did not intend, but it's the only one I can think of right now so here goes...).  The crisis negotiators don't talk, nor are they ever, condescending toward the potential jumper.  If they were, the person would surely see right through them and jump.  That's not what they want.  But they know how to identify with the person and get them to move off the ledge.  That's smart.  That's empathetic.  To me, that's what Dean did with Sam.   And I still don't see how that could possibly be interpreted as anti-Dean.  

Edited July 24, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey

[catrox14]

The End was alternate future for Dean, Sam and Castiel. Time travel is something angels can accomplish as we saw in s3.  Zachariah told him he was putting him 5 years into the future to see the outcome Zachariah created. He didn't get sent into another universe. 

Past!Dean told Future!Dean he was from 2009 and he just wanted to get back to his own time. Future!Cas confirmed when he met Past!Dean

Future!Cas:  "Whoa. You. You are not you....not now you.. anyway. What year are you from?" 
Dean: "2009" 
FutureCas: "Who did this to you? Was it Zachariah".

Dean was stricken by his future!Self becoming someone who would send his BF into a meat grinder.  Dean literally said "Man, something is broken in you". He was saying that to his future!self not a Dean from an alternate universe.  That's why I think Dean was completely sincere and not a manipulation by Dean.

Dean faced his future self and found him wanting. Thus he determined it was because the best way to fight the angels was for both Sam and Dean to be together because "WE keep each other human".  IMO the idea that it was really just a manipulation by Dean doesn't really mesh with Dean telling Zachariah he didn't learn the lesson he wanted him to learn which pissed  Zachariah off to the point of escalating before Cas stepped in and zapped Dean back to his own time and Dean telling Cas "Never change". 

Edited July 24, 2017 by catrox14

[ahrtee]

8 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Ah.  Well, I chose to ignore the rest of your comment explaining why Dean would feel that he needed to be kept human because I disagreed with it and so had nothing further to say on that!  You felt my interpretation was incomplete.   Okay.  I don't.  But that's not anti-Dean.  :)  

Going in circles because we're not going to get past this disagreement.  So, (as I've said several times already) agree to disagree.  

Edited July 24, 2017 by ahrtee

[ahrtee]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I've always wondered why Sam didn't just keep a gallon of Ruby's demon blood stashed so he didn't have to keep sucking on her arm.

One word:  coagulation.

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

One word:  coagulation.

I didn't mean like a gallon jug. But more like steal some blood bags and store it in a cooler.  Don't blood bags stop coagulation? He could have just sucked on those like Benny did. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

6 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Going in circles because we're not going to get past this disagreement.  So, (as I've said several times already) agree to disagree.  

Sure we still disagree about the reason for the "we keep each other human" line - which is okay.  But I wanted to clarify that my interpretation is not coming from either an angry-at-Dean or an anti-Dean stance nor was it intended to be taken as slight against him.   I get accused of enough 'anti-Dean' remarks - and some of them may even be true!  ;)  In this case however, as I suspect most people are, I don't like being accused of something of which I am not guilty.  

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I didn't mean like a gallon jug. But more like steal some blood bags and store it in a cooler.  Don't blood bags stop coagulation? He could have just sucked on those like Benny did. 

I wasn't being serious.  But I think they have to add an anti-coagulation drug to keep things runny, and maybe that wouldn't mix well with the demon blood.

From one of my favorite authors, Terry Pratchett:  a family of vampires, trying to be "modern," are trying to drink wine for the first time:

           “Do we, er, are we, eh, supposed to warm it up?”

            “Room temperature is suggested.”

            “That’s sickening,” said Lacrimosa. “I don’t know how you can bear it!”

            “Try it for your father, dear,” said the Countess. “Quickly, before it congeals.”

            “No, my dear. Wine stays runny.”

            “Really? How very convenient.”

             “Perhaps it would help if you think of it as grape blood.”

[catrox14]

Just now, ahrtee said:

I wasn't being serious.  But I think they have to add an anti-coagulation drug to keep things runny, and maybe that wouldn't mix well with the demon blood.

LOL Oh sorry. Often your posts are serious so I just figured you were answering earnestly. Bah! LOL.  Heh. That's a good head canon. Gotta have the good stuff right from the spigot?

[gonzosgirrl]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I've always wondered why Sam didn't just keep a gallon of Ruby's demon blood stashed so he didn't have to keep sucking on her arm.

26 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

One word:  coagulation.

I'd say maybe one different word. Sexytimes. Ruby's blood wasn't the only thing getting sucked, ifyouknowwhatImean andIthinkthatyoudo.

Edited July 24, 2017 by gonzosgirrl
to add the original quote for context

[ahrtee]

13 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Sure we still disagree about the reason for the "we keep each other human" line - which is okay.  But I wanted to clarify that my interpretation is not coming from either an angry-at-Dean or an anti-Dean stance nor was it intended to be taken as slight against him.   I get accused of enough 'anti-Dean' remarks - and some of them may even be true!  ;)  In this case however, as I suspect most people are, I don't like being accused of something of which I am not guilty.  

There are no accusations here.  All opinions are valid.  I was just pointing out how it sounded to me.  

[catrox14]

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

I'd say maybe one different word. Sexytimes. Ruby's blood wasn't the only thing getting sucked, ifyouknowwhatImean andIthinkthatyoudo.

HI YO! Fair point. Can't have the sexy (/hork) sucking on Ruby if Sam was being practical.

Sam might have gotten further with convincing Dean that he had to kill Lilith with demon blood power if he had kicked Ruby to the curb and presented demon blood bags as proof. LOL

[DittyDotDot]

6 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

But I think they have to add an anti-coagulation drug to keep things runny, and maybe that wouldn't mix well with the demon blood.

I always wonder how Sam could drink the blood out of a flask he'd carried around in his front pocket for weeks...ewww!!

[ahrtee]

Just now, DittyDotDot said:

I always wonder how Sam could drink the blood out of a flask he'd carried around in his front pocket for weeks...ewww!!

Yeah, I wondered that too! :)

[catrox14]

Just now, DittyDotDot said:

I always wonder how Sam could drink the blood out of a flask he'd carried around in his front pocket for weeks...ewww!!

Ohhh?h I forgot about that flask.  And how long did they have the 85 gallons of demon blood in the trunk of Dean's car in Swan Song?

[ahrtee]

Just now, catrox14 said:

Ohhh?h I forgot about that flask.  And how long did they have the 85 gallons of demon blood in the trunk of Dean's car in Swan Song?

That was what I thought of when you mentioned gallon jugs of blood.  I assumed it was pretty fresh (or at least, just as long as it took to drive from wherever they got it to Detroit.)

[Katy M]

22 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I didn't mean like a gallon jug. But more like steal some blood bags and store it in a cooler.  Don't blood bags stop coagulation? He could have just sucked on those like Benny did. 

He did have that flask of her blood that he drank out of in The Rapture.  So, maybe demon blood doesn't coagulate.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Ohhh?h I forgot about that flask.  And how long did they have the 85 gallons of demon blood in the trunk of Dean's car in Swan Song?

It seems to be one of those - it needs to be 'fresh' when it's convenient for the plot things.  Sam and Ruby took the nurse along for fresh blood when he went to kill Lilith instead of just draining her blood into jugs.  

Or maybe that was to make Sam look less sympathetic then.  But if he was just chugging from jugs in Swan Song, we didn't have to think about the poor demon-possessed victims they had to kill to get all that blood.  

[catrox14]

Just now, Katy M said:

He did have that flask of her blood that he drank out of in The Rapture.  So, maybe demon blood doesn't coagulate.

Yeah, I forgot about that flask.

[trxr4kids]

I feel like I need to take an iron supplement just from reading this. So much ewww!

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

That was what I thought of when you mentioned gallon jugs of blood.  I assumed it was pretty fresh (or at least, just as long as it took to drive from wherever they got it to Detroit.)

I can't remember did they kill a bunch of stunt demons in Detroit to get it? I just remember there being a disgusting amount and Sam was all "don't watch me drink it".

I'll never understand that whole leap that Sam had to drink blood to contain Lucifer. Like if he was his Chosen Vessel why was that ever necessary. Wouldn't Lucifer have been tempting him with demon blood to get him on board if he had to do that?? Give him a taste and keep powering him up. So dumb. IMO

[ILoveReading]

To me it doesn't matter if Jensen has read ahead or not.  Because Dabb knows exactly where the season is headed at least up to episode 11.  He teased spoilers for Sam, Cas, and Wayward Daughters.  He bascially talked about every character but Dean.  It's the purpose of comic, while not to give away everything, to promote the seasons story lines.  Not actually talking about Dean speaks volumes about what's in store (or more accurately not in store) for the character. 

Jensen also kind of contadicted himself.  He said he hasn't read ahead, but then he says that there will be an episode where

Spoiler

Dean has to deal with it all.

How would he know this if he hasn't read ahead.  It sounds more like speculation than fact.  I remember in s7 when Jensen talked about how Dean to be headed for some kind of break down, but that never happened, instead the whole so-called depression arc was just dropped. 

Either he has read ahead (and he has lied before, last year he said that he had read 3 scripts and Sam and Dean weren't reunited yet, but they obviously were), or he's just speculating.

And since it sounds like they are going the same route with Sam, with

Spoiler

Shutting down and burying emotions

 

I know Sam's trauma will take priority.

[catrox14]

Just now, trxr4kids said:

I feel like I need to take an iron supplement just from reading this. So much ewww!

LOL I haven't had red meat in a week and I'm kind of craving it right now. LOL I don't know what that says about me.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

13 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

There are no accusations here.  All opinions are valid.  I was just pointing out how it sounded to me.  

Fair enough.  Just so you know that:

2 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Your interpretation, from an angry-at-Dean (if not anti-Dean) perspective.

sounded like an accusation to me.  

[Katy M]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I can't remember did they kill a bunch of stunt demons in Detroit to get it? I just remember there being a disgusting amount and Sam was all "don't watch me drink it".

They killed a bunch of stunt demons, put it into gallon jugs and then Bobby told them a bunch of places where there were demon signs and Dean said it was Detroit.  I have no idea how far from Detroit they were at the time.  They started out at Bobby's, though, so if they didn't travel far to get to the demons, they would have had to go several hours before they got to Detroit. 

Edited July 24, 2017 by Katy M

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Jensen also kind of contadicted himself.  He said he hasn't read ahead, but then he says that there will be an episode where

  Reveal hidden contents

Jensen didn't say there would be an episode that dealt with what was in your spoiler.  That seemed like an educated comment of a man who's been playing the same character for 12 years now to me.  So I don't think he contradicted himself at all.  

[catrox14]

16 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

How would he know this if he hasn't read ahead.  It sounds more like speculation than fact.  I remember in s7 when Jensen talked about how Dean to be headed for some kind of break down, but that never happened, instead the whole so-called depression arc was just dropped. 

Quote

I

Spoiler

MO, he's either read something or he's been told there is something possibly maybe happening with Dean. So I can understand the confusion and why it seems contradictory.  IMO, if Dean is of the mind that Mary is dead but he's still praying or asking God or even Amara for help and he thinks Spawnifer needs to be taken out then MY HOPE and wishful thinking is this has something to do with Michael and so Jensen is being cagey. Like maybe he decides to track down Michael to get some kind of help from an archangel who's just broken but not dead.

 

l.

[ILoveReading]

21 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Jensen didn't say there would be an episode that dealt with what was in your spoiler.  That seemed like an educated comment of a man who's been playing the same character for 12 years now to me.  So I don't think he contradicted himself at all.  

His words were, "I know at some at some point..at some point he's going to have to deal with it and that's going to be... will probably be a pretty hard episode."

Yes, how does he know that at some point Dean has to deal with it?  The show isn't exactly consistent on dealing with Deans' trauma, which usually consists of "boo hoo suck it up"

ETA:

I like the way you think @catrox14

I wish we had a spoiler friendly Jerk/Bitch thread, because its hard to really have a conversation  when everything is behind a spoiler tag

Edited July 24, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Diane]

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

His words were, "I know at some at some point..at some point he's going to have to deal with it and that's going to be... will probably be a pretty hard episode."

Yes, how does he know that at some point Dean has to deal with it?  The show isn't exactly consistent on dealing with Deans' trauma, which usually consists of "boo hoo suck it up"

ETA:

I like the way you think @catrox14

I am thinking because Jensen isn't a moron, and its a logical conclusion.

[ILoveReading]

Just now, Diane said:

I am thinking because Jensen isn't a moron, and its a logical conclusion.

I never said he was a moron or implied that in any way.  I said I felt like he was being contradictory because it sounded like he knew more than he was letting on but at the same time saying he didn't know anything.

Not sure how you got me saying he was a moron out of that. 

[Diane]

4 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I never said he was a moron or implied that in any way.  I said I felt like he was being contradictory because it sounded like he knew more than he was letting on but at the same time saying he didn't know anything.

Not sure how you got me saying he was a moron out of that. 

What I am saying is I don't think he is being contradictory at all, he is reaching a logical conclusion without having to have read ahead.  Anyone could see that he would have to deal with it at some point.

[Aeryn13]

I think the logical conclusion would be that it is dropped and nothing happens with it for Dean. IMO Jensen just tried to give some spin. He usually does that when he has nothing to talk about really for his character. Which is kinda his job. There in the press room he is supposed to be hype the Season and people will answer questions about his character. He can hardly say "um, Dean is there".  And he is just not known for embelishing things that much.  

And from the other panelists, except Misha, you will not get anything positive about Dean`s character. Dabb will usually ignore him. Singer will say something negative and Jared will, if he does mention him, highlight how Sam does something better/wiser/smarter vs. one-dimensional Dean. Misha might make a tongue-in-cheek sexual reference. 

Which, fair enough from the other actors but the producers? Eh. 

[ILoveReading]

7 minutes ago, Diane said:

What I am saying is I don't think he is being contradictory at all, he is reaching a logical conclusion without having to have read ahead.  Anyone could see that he would have to deal with it at some point.

Yes, it is a logical conclusion but not on this show, and that is the context, I was talking abou..  It would be a logical conclusion that killing Death would have some kind of consequence but nope nothing.  Death had no more significance than a Windego.

Logic doesn't always apply on this show.

Even though it should be a forgone conclusion, its not something you can take for granted on this show given how often Dean story lines have been dropped or handed off to other characters.

So maybe its wishful thinking on his part, but its not a certainty and it almost sounded like Jensen knew something.  That was the point I was trying to make.

Edited July 24, 2017 by ILoveReading

[gonzosgirrl]

40 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I can't remember did they kill a bunch of stunt demons in Detroit to get it? I just remember there being a disgusting amount and Sam was all "don't watch me drink it".

I'll never understand that whole leap that Sam had to drink blood to contain Lucifer. Like if he was his Chosen Vessel why was that ever necessary. Wouldn't Lucifer have been tempting him with demon blood to get him on board if he had to do that?? Give him a taste and keep powering him up. So dumb. IMO

I know what Cas said about it, but it took Nick months to start falling apart. I assumed Sam didn't so much need the demon blood so much to contain Lucifer as he needed it to fight/gain control over him. Lucifer wouldn't want a powered-up Sam, so it makes sense he wouldn't use that to tempt him.

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, Diane said:

I am thinking because Jensen isn't a moron, and its a logical conclusion.

I'm not sure what you mean. No one has said Jensen is a moron nor implied that.

Spoiler

Jensen has an MO with his interviews. He's literally saying things like Dean "some things never change with Dean" like shoot first. And IMO that was not necessarily said with love or affection.. I felt there was some snark behind that.  IMO, either Jensen knows there is something coming for Dean and he's being cagey. OR Jensen is HOPEFUL this is forthcoming. He's mentioned before that things he expected to go longer or what he hoped would happen and it never came to fruition or was cut short. 

Thus far all that has been said is "Dean thinks Mary is dead (with no logical basis for this on Dean's part). Dean is going to ask for help from God/Amara to save Cas, Mary and Crowley apparently. And Dean wants to shoot Spawnifer in the face." Those are not SL's. Those are plot points.

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

I know what Cas said about it, but it took Nick months to start falling apart. I assumed Sam didn't so much need the demon blood so much to contain Lucifer as he needed it to fight/gain control over him. Lucifer wouldn't want a powered-up Sam, so it makes sense he wouldn't use that to tempt him.

t Nick wasn't his Chosen True Vessel. He wasn't special so his meatsuit would fail, which is why he wanted Sam. 

Oh that's new information for me. I thought it was solely for Sam to be strong enough to beat Michael so he could jump into the pit with Lucifer.  I don't get how it would help contain him control Lucifer. Wasn't that what the green army man was for. To help Sam get control over Lucifer?

[Diane]

35 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm not sure what you mean. No one has said Jensen is a moron nor implied that.

  Reveal hidden contents

Jensen has an MO with his interviews. He's literally saying things like Dean "some things never change with Dean" like shoot first. And IMO that was not necessarily said with love or affection.. I felt there was some snark behind that.  IMO, either Jensen knows there is something coming for Dean and he's being cagey. OR Jensen is HOPEFUL this is forthcoming. He's mentioned before that things he expected to go longer or what he hoped would happen and it never came to fruition or was cut short. 

Thus far all that has been said is "Dean thinks Mary is dead (with no logical basis for this on Dean's part). Dean is going to ask for help from God/Amara to save Cas, Mary and Crowley apparently. And Dean wants to shoot Spawnifer in the face." Those are not SL's. Those are plot points.

t Nick wasn't his Chosen True Vessel. He wasn't special so his meatsuit would fail, which is why he wanted Sam. 

Oh that's new information for me. I thought it was solely for Sam to be strong enough to beat Michael so he could jump into the pit with Lucifer.  I don't get how it would help contain him control Lucifer. Wasn't that what the green army man was for. To help Sam get control over Lucifer?

If you read my next post I explained it.

38 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Yes, it is a logical conclusion but not on this show, and that is the context, I was talking abou..  It would be a logical conclusion that killing Death would have some kind of consequence but nope nothing.  Death had no more significance than a Windego.

Logic doesn't always apply on this show.

Even though it should be a forgone conclusion, its not something you can take for granted on this show given how often Dean story lines have been dropped or handed off to other characters.

So maybe its wishful thinking on his part, but its not a certainty and it almost sounded like Jensen knew something.  That was the point I was trying to make.

I disagree, but then I still enjoy both characters and I don't think anyone has dropped storylines. Obviously ymv 

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Oh that's new information for me. I thought it was solely for Sam to be strong enough to beat Michael so he could jump into the pit with Lucifer.  I don't get how it would help contain him control Lucifer. Wasn't that what the green army man was for. To help Sam get control over Lucifer?

Well yes, but my reasoning is that he had to be able to control Lucifer in order to jump into the pit. It's not really 'information' - as I said, it was my take on why he'd need to be charged up for it via demon blood.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Well yes, but my reasoning is that he had to be able to control Lucifer in order to jump into the pit. It's not really 'information' - as I said, it was my take on why he'd need to be charged up for it via demon blood.

Oh sorry. I missed that it was your headcanon. LOL Sorry I read it as like a canon thing.

[Mulva]

8 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

It seems to be one of those - it needs to be 'fresh' when it's convenient for the plot things.  Sam and Ruby took the nurse along for fresh blood when he went to kill Lilith instead of just draining her blood into jugs.  

Or maybe that was to make Sam look less sympathetic then.  But if he was just chugging from jugs in Swan Song, we didn't have to think about the poor demon-possessed victims they had to kill to get all that blood.  

I've never gotten why we're supposed to be so disgusted and outraged over Sam drinking from that nurse when nobody cares about any other possessed people.  They kill meat suits, torture them for information and drain them for their own purposes.  What was so special about her?

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, Mulva said:

I've never gotten why we're supposed to be so disgusted and outraged over Sam drinking from that nurse when nobody cares about any other possessed people.  They kill meat suits, torture them for information and drain them for their own purposes.  What was so special about her?

I think it was that the demon let the nurse out and she was begging for her own life. Sam went ahead anyway. In most other cases we don't see the victim in the meatsuit because the demon has sublimated them. When did the boys drain a human for their blood? I legit don't remember when that happenened.

[shang yiet]

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we don't see the victim in the meatsuit because the demon has sublimated them.

That is still sad and disgusting. The victim is still in there, maybe screaming in pain like the real Meg.

[Wayward Son]

46 minutes ago, shang yiet said:

That is still sad and disgusting. The victim is still in there, maybe screaming in pain like the real Meg.

Agreed! I recently rewatched Are You There God It's Me Dean Winchester and Meg's speech really got me thinking. The show likes to talk about the lives they save, but how many have they completely ruined by their stab first, ask questions later policy? Not just the meat suits murdered, but the friends and family, like Meg's little sister, who lost a loved one. 

[AwesomO4000]

18 hours ago, Myrelle said:

IA with everything here, but where it concerns this show, Comic Con, just like seasons 11 and 12, was completely predictable, IMO. Samnatural is back in full force again after a short reprieve in the second half of S9, when for some reason they hatched a decent storyline for Dean. I'm beginning to think that that was probably contract time, though, and Jensen might have been balking at re-signing because of that lack(The CheerleaderDean remarks come to mind)-but I suspect that as soon as the ink on his new contract was dry, they went right back to their Samnatural mindset in the writers' room and this in spite of the overwhelming popularity of DemonDean that I saw everywhere that I went before they offed him after only three episodes.

We'll have to agree to disagree, because in my opinion, season 10 and 11 were also Dean plotlines. Sam got a couple of one off episodes that focused on him - which I think is fair considering that Dean had the plotline - but other than that, despite all the worry expressed by some, Sam was not the one to stop Amara. It was Dean with Sam cheering him on, and playing the support role - which I didn't mind (though I would have minded it even less if Sam hadn't been set up and blamed for starting it in the first place, but...)... And not only did Dean get to be the one to stop Amara, he was also cleaning up Sam's mess. It was the third time that Dean got to be a hero while cleaning up someone else's mess. And that's something only Dean gets to do on this show.

We'll have to disagree on Jared's ability to show Sam's emotions, because I think he does a great job with it and I appreciate when he gets the chance to actually showcase it - like in "Mystery Spot."

17 hours ago, Myrelle said:

I think the MOC storyline more than qualifies in this regard. And it even fits in perfectly with the rest of this post. Sam admitted Dean needed to take on the Mark to stop Abaddon, but then the Darkness was released and the writers took every chance they could get to let us know that if Dean hadn't taken on the Mark and kicked over nest with Cain then that wouldn't have happened. How many times on the show was it stated that releasing the darkness AND Lucifer was the fault of all three protagonists on the show? And Dean started all of it with the MOC.

IDK, sometimes I think that some in this fandom just can't get enough of Dean being wrong-not the other way around. And unfortunately, I think the showrunners and writers are amongst that subset of the fandom, too.

But Dean wasn't wrong in taking on the MoC. If Sam supposedly drinking the demon blood to help him defeat Lucifer was Sam not being wrong, how was Dean defeating Abaddon not exactly the same thing And in case there was any doubt, God later told us so. I never once remember Dean being blamed for releasing Amara. Sam briefly mentioned that he and Dean created the "mess" - the attitude that they saved each other without considering the consequences - but in the church he took ownership of the Darkness himself. And as I said God agreed.

17 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

The show didn't treat Sam being wrong about Ruby, Lucifer or the British Men of Letters that way, so its not just Dean.

I guess the multiple times the narrative made reference to Sam betraying Dean and being the reason Lucifer was released and starting the apocalypse don't count. Not to mention that Sam ended up starting an apocalypse which I think pretty much means that the writers think you are wrong. Both Sam and Castiel have directly  started 2 apocalypses through their bad decisions. Despite some questionable decisions and even some hubris himself, Dean hasn't started one.

17 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Then why was it suddenly pulled out of thin air that the in order to house Lucifer you had to drink demon blood?  It was not referenced before or after.  IMO, it was done to white wash Sam's demon blood drinking because it was really on done so he'd be strong enough vessel.   How is show saying its wrong when we (the audience) were told that was ultimately its purpose?

Even if Sam is wrong the show tends to say he's right in the end.

My opinion is that the blood-drinking was puled out of thin air, because the writers needed an excuse for Sam to say "yes" even though Lucifer knew the entire plan. Sam wasn't supposed to say "yes" in that case or if everyone didn't agree, but the plot needed him to say "yes" anyway...so enter a few gallons of blood to create an over-confident, blood-addled Sam and voila, we have a Sam who says "yes" when he shouldn't have. And of course Lucifer immediately defeats him.

So my answer as to why it was pulled out of thin air: they needed the plotonium.

16 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Because in Fallen Idols apparently Sam was only with Ruby because Dean wasn't treating him like an adult.  Fallen Idols tried to say that if only Dean was more supportive Sam woudn't have been with her.  So in the end Dean was wrong to question Sam because he drove him into Ruby's arms.  That's how it makes Sam right.  Dean apologized to Sam 3 times for not trusting him (Fallen Idols, PONR and Swan Song).  When Sam spends and entire season lying, why is the burden of proving trust on Dean?

No, I meant Sam here.  When Sam is wrong the show will validate his choices.  Maybe not right away but in the end they ultimately do.  Being wrong about the Brits lead to another big hero moment for Sam. 

That is your interpretation. My interpretation of "Fallen Idols" was that Sam's feeling like the little brother didn't have much to do with Dean's bossy behavior. And in my opinion the show just as much - if not more - validates Dean's bossy behavior, because Dean is generally right.

As for Sam's lying and Dean having to trust Sam... the reverse happened in season 9, with Sam ultimately having to admit that dean was right, so it's not just Dean having to acquiesce. And not only that, bossy Dean was even proven right when he singlehandedly killed Abaddon and told Sam he better just follow orders... and what do you know, Sam wasn't needed at all after all in stopping Metatron... just like Dean said.

As for Sam ultimately being right - so Sam gets one supposed hero moment after being wrong. In my opinion, that's not all that much. Dean gets to make rash decisions and show hubris and instead of being called on it by multiple characters like Sam was, Dean gets to be right and his hubris is pretty much validated.

16 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

What did being right get Dean? Acknowledgment? Adoration? Leadership? Anything? Oh, he got to stay back and basically validate Mary`s little wounded feelings. Pass. 

What did Sam being right about Dean rashly taking on the MoC or not being careful concerning Gadreel get him? Oh wait never mind... Sam wasn't really right about those things. But he still got to stand back in the wings, or rather be looking around in the basement for non-existent demons or be unconscious while Dean, and then Dean,, Castiel, and even Gadreel did the heroics. He also got to come in in time to admit he lied and be too late to do anything, but that's pretty much it.

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Lots of shows have heroes clean up their own messes, too. Over on the Flash that`s the yearly story and everyone always goes on about the lead character being a big hero.

As I said above. Dean got to be the hero here 3 times by cleaning up someone else's mess: Mary/John's, Castiel's, and Sam's.

14 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I think Sam is  often unkind and terse and judgmental and passive-aggressively controlling and he has been since the pilot.  I don't think he's all that nice of a guy a lot of the time which I'm okay with him not always being nice. And yet, IMO those traits are rarely if ever condemned or even remarked on by other characters or show itself.   When Sam was at his nadir in s4, those unpleasant characteristics were couched as "because demon blood".  But that's how I've always seen Sam. I'm not including Soulless Sam in my "analysis" , "because soulless".

When I think back to s1 and s2, Sam was IMO super condescending, mean, and outright snide not only to Dean but occasionally even the VoTW.  He was all over the map. And that may be a function of Kripke still trying to decide if Sam was going to end up being evil or not. I'm not entirely sure if too this day the show can't decide how aligned he's going to be with Lucifer, which is a SL that won't die. 

I guess I'm not seeing things at all the way that you are. I agree that in a few early episodes, Sam was judgemental, and in some of those cases, I actually found that odd. Two of those episodes: "Phantom Traveler" and "Asylum" were by one writer, and they were the only two episodes that he wrote, so I'm guessing maybe Kripke wasn't happy with the tone of his episodes maybe? Not only that, but Sam later apologized for the things he said in "Asylum." "Phantom Traveler" for me was jut off.

I guess I'm also not seeing Sam being condescending in season 2, especially when he was trying to help Dean and was being very understanding about John, and tried to get Dean to open up, even when Dean hit him for his troubles. He praised Dean a lot and thanked him all the time for saving him, for raising him, for being a great big brother... That video of clips of people acknowledging Dean that was posted in the Dean thread is full of stuff from Sam in seasons 1 and 2 - there was stuff I didn't even remember in there, and it all seemed pretty genuine in my opinion.

To me, saying that Sam is often this way to Dean would be like me saying that Dean was abusive towards Sam because he got physical with him a few times or that he was mean to him because he often called him a girl. Neither of those is the true, but just representative of a few scattered actions.

And in my opinion, for as many times when Sam was terse with the victim of the week, he was just as often understanding and kind, if not more so, especially once he got over his revenge thing.

I also don't think it is how Sam was especially in season 6.5 and 7 where I don't remember Sam being condescending* or passive-aggressive towards Dean... Now season 8 and 9 I completely agree with you... and more, but in my opinion Carver regressed Sam back to season 4 or so and ignored all of his character growth from season 5 on, so we'll have to agree to disagree that Sam has been that way since the pilot, because I disagree and think Sam had grown a lot until Carver came along.

* He questioned Dean in terms of ghost Bobby, but I didn't really take that as condescending - because Dean would've done the same thing if their positions had been reversed.

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IIRC, the ONLY character who has ever called Sam out for his IMO tendency to be condescending, patronizing and snide is Dean in s7, when Dean actually told Sam to stop acting like a bitch about the Amy thing. Of course, that was also couched around Dean being kind of 'bad guy' for killing Amy and that he was a misogynistic asshole for telling Sam to stop acting like a bitch".  That was actually condemned as being worse than Sam haranguing Dean constantly about it.

 

Dean called Sam out for it also in "Point of No Return." And I think War did in "Good God, Y'All."

As for "The Mentalists," I think the show was with Dean on that one... which was kind of odd for me, because I didn't think Sam was being all that unreasonable. Dean was the one who made the terms - "we can just work the case," and that's what Sam was doing. He wasn't being crappy, and he didn't even bring up Amy at all... but Dean wanted more and got annoyed when Sam wouldn't cave and do more than work the case. Still Sam accepted Dean's criticism and Sam was the one who acquiesced in the end and agreed that Dean did the right thing. The only other time Sam brought up Amy that season was when he was worried, because Dean wasn't going to kill Emma and Sam got a little freaked out about Dean's state of mind. I'm just not seeing the "constant haranguing" about it... unless you mean season 8 which could be possible, since Carver completely trashed Sam's character in that season and I'll admit to their being a few episodes that I haven't seen from that season.

I guess our opinions are more dissimilar than I had generally thought if you find Sam that unlikable and without growth.

[Katy M]

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

When did the boys drain a human for their blood? I legit don't remember when that happenened.

Swan Song.