“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[Pondlass1]

Dean is reckless, impulsive and goes off half cocked. He's fun to watch. His intentions are always good and aiming to save the world.  I like this about Dean.  I see complaints that he's bossy....my way or the highway sort of thing.  I also like this about Dean.  It's been the same since the show began. Dean hasn't changed much.  He's yells his opinion  and orders people about (usually it all makes sense) then concedes because no one listens and of course things go sideways.

Sam, on the other hand, has been up & down over the seasons in terms of personality.  He has been a bitch,  a cruel bitch.  He's bloody secretive too. Sam knows which nerves to hit.  

Dean is all upfront.  You know exactly where you stand with Dean because he'll tell you to your face.  Sam.... not so much. 

Lately the writers have pulled back on this aspect  of Sam and now he's all super understanding and charitable.  He regards Dean with a tolerant and furrowed brow - like he's suddenly the big brother.  The sensible one.  I'm a bit over this now, although I don't like when writers  concoct a wedge between them.

I like that the brothers are full of flaws and foibles.  Filled to the brim. I don't want them any other way.  

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, Wayward Son said:

But the show didn't treat it like that. Ultimately, Ezekiel played a key role in saving the world and was referred to by Sam as a friend. Plus we had Sam take away any legitimacy to his arguments with the catch all "I lied". Any wrong doing on Dean's part was quickly swept under the carpet and forgotten. We don't hear people talk about it years later the way there is still occasional references to Sam freeing Lucifer.

The show didn't treat Sam being wrong about Ruby, Lucifer or the British Men of Letters that way, so its not just Dean.

I disagree that it took away Sam's legitimacy because I always felt the "I lied" only referred to him not saving Dean.  It wans't quickly forgotten because Dean was disowned and Sam raked him over the coals.  Then the next season Sam did the same thing but it was a beautiful act of brotherly love, not wrong.  Everyone, Cas, Charlie, and Rowena even supported what Sam was doing, in order to validate Sam saving Dean without his consent.  (which Sam actually did twice.). 

[Myrelle]

3 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

But the show didn't treat it like that.

Neither did they treat Sam's blood drinking as wrong. What the fandom thinks and what the showrunners'/writers' intentions are are two different things. We know exactly what Kripke's intention was from this:

 

8 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

He was also wrong to object to Ruby and Sam's blood drinking.  Because its not like Sam went to Ruby of his own free will.  He did it because Dean made him feel bad and the blood drinking was really just her getting Sam ready to take on Lucifer. " Dean just needed to learn to love Sam more and accept his cool powers."  (Direct quote from Kripke)

[Aeryn13]

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Actually, I would kind of love to see a big damn "Dean is wrong" story.  And not just a 'Dean is temporarily wrong or seems wrong, but in the long run it was really Sam that was wrong and an idiot and should have listened to Dean all along' like the BMOL story of S12.  It'd be okay with me if they even 'switched' places for this to happen: such as they disagree, but Sam acquiesces to Dean's way, and then Dean turns out to be wrong.  That would actually be a novel storyline for both guys as of of late, imo.

Of course then they`d also make it clear that Dean was only wrong because Sam treated him wrongly and it wasn`t really Dean`s fault and/or it would end with a big hero moment where Dean is worshipped as the grand leader of mankind. Can`t only switch the negatives around here.

 

Comic Con spoilers are largely as expected. Though the amount of Dean-bashing potential set-up did surprise even me. I didn`t think they would go quite this far. And I dearly hope Jared is just riding his character`s jock too hard, like he often does. For a character who whined all the time about wanting an equal partnership, it would be real hypocrisy if he went "yay, finally, I have all the power, just like I was destined to have in my greatness".   

[RulerofallIsurvey]

37 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

How many times on the show was it stated that releasing the darkness AND Lucifer was the fault of all three protagonists on the show? 

None that I recall.  You know what I remember?  GOD blaming Sam and ONLY Sam for releasing the Darkness and Lucifer.  

On Amara: See "Don't Call Me Shurley":

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METATRON: What about Amara? She's your sister.

CHUCK: I took responsibility for her, too. Locked her away – barely, I might add. And who let her out?

METATRON: Sam and Dean Winchester. But they're trying to fix that.

CHUCK: You know I love those guys, but the world would still be spinning with Demon Dean in it. But Sam couldn't have that, though, could he? And so how is Amara being out on me?

 So how exactly is that Dean being wrong for taking on the MOC when even GOD says "the world would still be spinning with Demon Dean in it"?

On Lucifer: see "All in the Family"

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Chuck (looking at Sam): Lucifer was perhaps my greatest hope and my bitterest disappointment. Do you think if I could have trusted him for a moment, I would have put him in the Cage? And I wasn't gonna mention this, but thank you so much for springing him."

 'Nuff said, I think.

11 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

14 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

There was the Ezekiel/Gadreel story.  Dean was wrong there too.

But the show didn't treat it like that. Ultimately, Ezekiel played a key role in saving the world and was referred to by Sam as a friend.

Exactly.

14 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

He was also wrong to object to Ruby and Sam's blood drinking.

Except that Sam was ultimately wrong to have been drinking the demon blood and listening to Ruby since she turned out to be working with/for Lucifer.  So, once again Dean was ultimately right.  

37 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

IDK, sometimes I think that some in this fandom just can't get enough of Dean being wrong-not the other way around.

No - I just want one - ONE - real story where Sam proves to be ultimately right in the end.  Just like, in the end, Dean was right about taking on the MOC (since he needed it to kill Abadon) and Dean was right about not trusting Ruby and Dean was right about not trusting the BMOL and Dean was right about trusting Gadreel.  

3 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Neither did they treat Sam's blood drinking as wrong.

Yes they did.  I don't know what show you were watching if you saw otherwise.  

ETA: Kripke's intention matters little, since that is not what was stated/portrayed on the show.

Edited July 24, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey
Kripke said a lot of things that weren't true.

[Katy M]

15 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

According to the show he was wrong to resoul Sam.

What?  The show never showed Dean to be wrong to resoul Sam.  Nor should they have, it was clearly the right decision.

 

13 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Ultimately, Ezekiel played a key role in saving the world and was referred to by Sam as a friend.

Don't even get me started on that.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

6 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Of course then they`d also make it clear that Dean was only wrong because Sam treated him wrongly and it wasn`t really Dean`s fault and/or it would end with a big hero moment where Dean is worshipped as the grand leader of mankind. Can`t only switch the negatives around here.

I'd be okay with all that too.  As long as Sam actually - truly and permanently - got to be Right in the end for once.  

[ILoveReading]

8 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Except that Sam was ultimately wrong to have been drinking the demon blood and listening to Ruby since she turned out to be working with/for Lucifer.  So, once again Dean was ultimately right.  

Then why was it suddenly pulled out of thin air that the in order to house Lucifer you had to drink demon blood?  It was not referenced before or after.  IMO, it was done to white wash Sam's demon blood drinking because it was really on done so he'd be strong enough vessel.   How is show saying its wrong when we (the audience) were told that was ultimately its purpose?

IMO, the show tried to say that Dean was wrong to object to Sam drinking in because in the end it really was for the good of mankind. 

Why did Kripke say that in the end it really was about Dean accepting those cool powers.   if Sam can only get them from drinking demon blood and that still makes them cool, then Kripke must have been okay with Sam's blood slurpees

Even if Sam is wrong the show tends to say he's right in the end.

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What?  The show never showed Dean to be wrong to resoul Sam.  Nor should they have, it was clearly the right decision.

It did. Everyone told Dean that putting Sam's soul back was a mistake, and everyone warned Dean not to do it.  They went out of the way to show that Souless Sam didn't want it back and that Dean shoved it back into Sam and took away souless Sam's consent.  They even showed Souless Sam screaming that no, he didn't want it.  The show did everything it could to make Dean wrong to want to do that.  I never understood why, but that's the direction the show took

Edited July 24, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Aeryn13]

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As long as Sam actually - truly and permanently - got to be Right in the end for once.  

If Sam was right like Dean was "right" about the BMOL last Season? Thrown to the side, not acknowledged and Sam heralded as the real hero? Well, okay. Because to me being right in that scenario means jackshit. It certainly meant nothing positive for Dean. Whereas supposedly being wrong brought good things for Sam. So if that is the being right you mean, then have Dean be wrong. 

However, I doubt it`s gonna work this way for Dean. He will be dragged over the coals for being wrong and Sam will still be the big hero.  

Besides, we already know he will be right about believing Mary is alive and wanting to rescue her. They spelled that out as Comic Con.

And he will likely be right about Jack. IF Jack turns evil, they will make it Dean`s fault for not believing in him.

 

Personally, I don`t care so much other than the amount of pontificating scenes from Sam that will mean. I hate those line deliveries in 99 % of the scenes.

And of course that leadership crap. That makes it sound like Sam is gonna be John now but it`s a good thing poor, dumb, wrong Dean will aquiesce to him and follow in his grand footsteps. Barf.  

[shang yiet]

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Lately the writers have pulled back on this aspect  of Sam and now he's all super understanding and charitable.  He regards Dean with a tolerant and furrowed brow - like he's suddenly the big brother.  The sensible one.  I'm a bit over this now, although I don't like when writers  concoct a wedge between them.

I like that the brothers are full of flaws and foibles.  Filled to the brim. I don't want them any other way.

So do I. I like Sam's flaws just fine. I don't need him to be super understanding, instantly forgiving and always playing the mediator and being the voice of reason and compassion. I like that Sam can be a cold bitch and all that. It actually for me adds to his layers. And yes, Dean is bossy.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

4 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Then why was it suddenly pulled out of thin air that the in order to house Lucifer you had to drink demon blood?  It was not referenced before or after.  IMO, it was done to white wash Sam's demon blood drinking because it was really on done so he'd be strong enough vessel.   How is show saying its wrong when we (the audience) were told that was ultimately its purpose?

That was after Lucifer had already been released - in an attempt to get him back in the box.  Before that though, Sam drinking the demon blood was nothing but bad - and Dean was right about that, since if Sam hadn't been doing that and listening to Ruby, Lucifer never would have been released in the first place!  So tell me how that makes Sam right?  I don't understand that at all.  

7 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Even if Sam is wrong the show tends to say he's right in the end.

I think you are confusing Sam with Dean there.

7 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

It did. Everyone told Dean that putting Sam's soul back was a mistake, and everyone warned Dean not to do it.  They went out of the way to show that Souless Sam didn't want it back and that Dean shoved it back into Sam and took away souless Sam's consent.  They even showed Souless Sam screaming that no, he didn't want it.  The show did everything it could to make Dean wrong to want to do that.  I never understood why, but that's the direction the show took

But then after Sam got his soul back, they showed all the nasty things Sam did while he was Soulless - which to me shows (in a BIG way) how Right Dean was to do it!  Oh, and Sam didn't die from the resouling after all, like so many warned - so once again Dean was proven right.  

2 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

If Sam was right like Dean was "right" about the BMOL last Season?

Yep, I'd take it.  I'd LOVE it.  Because what you consider being 'thrown to the side' was Dean getting the way more interesting (and critically lauded) scene of Dean going into Mary's mind to bring her out of her brainwashing while Sam being a 'real hero' was taking out the BMOL headquarters as a member of a team (not solo) - and Jody's the one who shot Ms. Headmistress, not Sam.    

[Aeryn13]

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while Sam being a 'real hero' was taking out the BMOL headquarters as a member of a team (not solo) - and Jody's the one who shot Ms. Headmistress, not Sam. 

Those scenes were just afterthoughts. The important one was where he speechified to a room full of hunters, including Dean. With the sweeping music and Sam being in the center, regarded by all as if he had just grown a halo. And apparently Jared loved that, too, because he looks forward to more where that comes from. He already sees it as "taking the lead" with Jack, i.e. he made a decision and poor, dumb Dean grumbles initially but follows him like a good little flunky. 

IMO that is what Sam wants in a hunting "partner", that is what makes him fulfilled, a follower. He had bad luck with Ruby but apparently the show has successfully molded Dean into the good little drone for Sam now.  He basically was in the second half of last Season and will never change back. 

Does Dean have any positive traits left? I don`t consider being Sam`s (or Mary`s) little worshipping doormat as one. And he ain`t really much of a hunter anymore after last Season. 

Of course they ran to speak about all his bad traits and how he is gonna be wrong at Comic Con. Yippie. More bashing.

Edited July 24, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Katy M]

22 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

It did. Everyone told Dean that putting Sam's soul back was a mistake, and everyone warned Dean not to do it.  They went out of the way to show that Souless Sam didn't want it back and that Dean shoved it back into Sam and took away souless Sam's consent.  They even showed Souless Sam screaming that no, he didn't want it.  The show did everything it could to make Dean wrong to want to do that.  I never understood why, but that's the direction the show took

Some of the characters on the show (Cas and Crowley mostly) said that his soul may be damaged.  But, I only saw that as show saying this was a tough choice and that it may not work out the way Dean wanted it to.  Not that Dean was wrong to do it.  And, then everything mostly turned out hunky-dory, (but for a few hallucinations and near-death) and Sam thanked him, so he was clearly right to do it.

[Myrelle]

3 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I think you are confusing Sam with Dean there.

I don't think she is, but we can agree to disagree on that-just as we seem to disagree on pretty much everything concerning this show. But take heart, the writers very likely agree with you and are continuously working to straighten that out, IMO. After all, Dean is going to "acquiesce to Sam" yet again this season, just as he did last season, so at least you'll have your "moment", if not everything you want in that regard by the end of the season-although, at this point, I'm not sure who they would be looking to please more by the end of the season. I suppose that it will depend on how the contact talks are going again. If all are signed and happy, take heart again, because, as a professed Samfan(more than a Deanfan),  you will be far more likely than ever to get exactly what you're asking for, in that case. IMO, of course.

[catrox14]

22 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

hen Kripke must have been okay with Sam's blood slurpees

OMG. I legit guffawed at this and am now envisioning some kind of demon/vampire ice cream truck where they drive around selling Blood Slurpees and other demon/vampire snacks. That made my day. LOLLOLOLOL

I've always wondered why Sam didn't just keep a gallon of Ruby's demon blood stashed so he didn't have to keep sucking on her arm.

[ILoveReading]

6 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

That was after Lucifer had already been released - in an attempt to get him back in the box.  Before that though, Sam drinking the demon blood was nothing but bad - and Dean was right about that, since if Sam hadn't been doing that and listening to Ruby, Lucifer never would have been released in the first place!  So tell me how that makes Sam right?  I don't understand that at al

It doesn't matter when they did it, because ultimately in the end, Sam using his powers had the full support of the show runner and the blood drinking was ultimately for noble purposes.

Because in Fallen Idols apparently Sam was only with Ruby because Dean wasn't treating him like an adult.  Fallen Idols tried to say that if only Dean was more supportive Sam woudn't have been with her.  So in the end Dean was wrong to question Sam because he drove him into Ruby's arms.  That's how it makes Sam right.  Dean apologized to Sam 3 times for not trusting him (Fallen Idols, PONR and Swan Song).  When Sam spends and entire season lying, why is the burden of proving trust on Dean?

10 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I think you are confusing Sam with Dean there.

No, I meant Sam here.  When Sam is wrong the show will validate his choices.  Maybe not right away but in the end they ultimately do.  Being wrong about the Brits lead to another big hero moment for Sam. 

12 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

But then after Sam got his soul back, they showed all the nasty things Sam did while he was Soulless - which to me shows (in a BIG way) how Right Dean was to do it!  Oh, and Sam didn't die from the resouling after all, like so many warned - so once again Dean was proven right.  

The only reason Sam didn't die was because of Cas taking Sam's memories.  So, they were right. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

15 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Those scenes were just afterthoughts. The important one was where he speechified to a room full of hunters, including Dean.

You might think they were after thoughts.  But the way the script was written when Dean was confronting Mary, it was clearly not an afterthought.  It was clearly the focus of the entire episode.  The afterthoughts were the thrown together/haphazard/ridiculous scenes of a handful of American hunters storming some allegedly impenetrable BMOL fortress.  

11 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

But take heart, the writers very likely agree with you and are continuously working to straighten that out, IMO. After all, Dean is going to "acquiesce to Sam" yet again this season, just as he did last season, so at least you'll have your "moment", if not everything you want in that regard by the end of the season-although, at this point, I'm not sure who they would be looking to please more by the end of the season. 

Oh, and you should take heart too.  Because if by getting my "moment" this season just like last season where Dean acquiesced to Sam, you mean that once again, in the end Sam is proven wrong: NO. THANK. YOU.  

That was my point.

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If all are signed and happy, take heart again, because, as a professed Samfan(more than a Deanfan),  you will be far more likely than ever to get exactly what you're asking for, in that case. IMO, of course.

I really don't understand what you mean by this.  Even as a professed more-of-a-Samfan-but also still a Dean fan, generally, I am just happy to still see the show on the air.  I don't think there's anything wrong with that.  

[trxr4kids]

41 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Why did Kripke say that in the end it really was about Dean accepting those cool powers.   if Sam can only get them from drinking demon blood and that still makes them cool, then Kripke must have been okay with Sam's blood slurpees

I'm with catrox this made me lmao. I'm picturing Sam going into a 7 11 at like 3 am and freaking out they only have cherry and mountain dew flavor. 

[Katy M]

24 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I've always wondered why Sam didn't just keep a gallon of Ruby's demon blood stashed so he didn't have to keep sucking on her arm.

She probably said that she couldn't spare that much in order to keep him dependent on her actual presence.  Not just her blood.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

21 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

It doesn't matter when they did it, because ultimately in the end, Sam using his powers had the full support of the show runner and the blood drinking was ultimately for noble purposes.

It absolutely does matter when they did it!  At the end, Sam wasn't drinking the demon blood for 'noble purposes' as you purport, imo.  It was to clean up his own damn mess that he started by drinking the demon blood in the first place!  I really don't understand how you can think that was a good thing.  

 

23 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Being wrong about the Brits lead to another big hero moment for Sam. 

I disagree.  Being wrong about the Brits lead to Sam having to clean up his own damn mess again.  That is not a big hero moment thing.  Imo, Big heroes clean up other people's messes, they don't make their own.  Cleaning up your own mess is just about taking responsibility.  It's not about being a hero.    

24 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

The only reason Sam didn't die was because of Cas taking Sam's memories.  So, they were right. 

But Dean was still right to have put Sam's soul back in in the first place.  

[Aeryn13]

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 The afterthoughts were the thrown together/haphazard/ridiculous scenes of a handful of American hunters storming some allegedly impenetrable BMOL fortress.  

Those were the scenes I was refering to. IMO they didn`t make Sam the hero, the previous "all hail Sam the leader" scene did. How he put his plan into action and actually led his troops was the afterthought.

That`s why Sam being proven wrong about the BMOL meant nothing in the end. He was elevated in all his wrongness. Over everyone who had been right. So freaking much good it did anyone being right in that case. If all that gets you is to be Sam`s adoring flunky, that`s really not an embarassment of riches.  

What did being right get Dean? Acknowledgment? Adoration? Leadership? Anything? Oh, he got to stay back and basicallyvalidate Mary`s little wounded feelings. Pass.

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 Imo, Big heroes clean up other people's messes, they don't make their own.  Cleaning up your own mess is just about taking responsibility.  It's not about being a hero.   

If the narrative doesn`t specifically call that out but go out of their way to make it a big hero scene - like in episode 11.22, I totally disagree. It didn`t come across one whit like Sam cleaning up his mess but Sam stepping into his greatness as leader and be the big hero.

Lots of shows have heroes clean up their own messes, too. Over on the Flash that`s the yearly story and everyone always goes on about the lead character being a big hero.   

Edited July 24, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

But Dean was still right to have put Sam's soul back in in the first place.  

It is boggling my mind that anyone can think it was NOT a good idea to put Sam's soul back, or that we're even supposed to see it like that.  Heck, even if Sam had died, Dean still would have been right.  Although, this obviously would not work for show purposes, (unless he came back to life, I forgot which show I was talking about for a minute).  But, anyway, if Sam had died, he most likely would have gone to Heaven, and that would have been an improvement to Sam's soul in Hell and his body wreaking havoc on earth.

[ahrtee]

13 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Some of the characters on the show (Cas and Crowley mostly) said that his soul may be damaged.  But, I only saw that as show saying this was a tough choice and that it may not work out the way Dean wanted it to.  Not that Dean was wrong to do it.  And, then everything mostly turned out hunky-dory, (but for a few hallucinations and near-death) and Sam thanked him, so he was clearly right to do it.

Actually, Crowley, Cas, Balthazar and Death (pretty much everyone they knew who knew anything about souls) said it would be horrible...I think one of the phrases was something like "psychic pain so bad he'd wind up locked inside his own mind."  When Dean said he'd heard Sam's soul might be "damaged," Death told him it was "flayed".  Even Bobby was hesitant (before Soulless Sam tried to kill him, that is.)  Dean went against everyone because, as SS put it, "he doesn't care about me, just his little brother still stuck in the cage."  They were literally phrasing it as killing one fully functional (albeit psychopathic) person in order to retrieve his little brother.  And it was the little bro who was saved who thanked Dean, not the one who was destroyed to bring him back.  

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Those were the scenes I was refering to. IMO they didn`t make Sam the hero, the previous "all hail Sam the leader" scene did. How he put his plan into action and actually led his troops was the afterthought.

That`s why Sam being proven wrong about the BMOL meant nothing in the end. He was elevated in all his wrongness. Over everyone who had been right. So freaking much good it did anyone being right in that case. If all that gets you is to be Sam`s adoring flunky, that`s really not an embarassment of riches.  

What did being right get Dean? Acknowledgment? Adoration? Leadership? Anything? 

Being right doesn't get you anything if you don't act on your "rightness."  Dean thought the BMOLs were bad news, but he still agreed to work with him.  Sam and Dean were pretty equal in wrongness when it came to their actions.  But, I will also say that they're being wrong about the BMOLs really didn't affect anything negatively. Even had they not signed on, the BMOLs would have still been doing what they were doing.  They got their info about other hunters, not from Sam and Dean directly, but from their surveillance of them.

[Aeryn13]

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It is boggling my mind that anyone can think it was NOT a good idea to put Sam's soul back,

There were so many rapist!Dean metas/articles out back then and to this day, they prevail. It is usually cited as one of his horrible acts of abuse against poor suffering Sam.

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Sam and Dean were pretty equal in wrongness when it came to their actions. 

Then why didn`t Dean get to reap the rewards of being wrong along with Sam? Why did Sam get to stand in a circle and literally made it all about himself and his leadership? Can`t have it both ways, show.

Edited July 24, 2017 by Aeryn13

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

That`s why Sam being proven wrong about the BMOL meant nothing in the end. He was elevated in all his wrongness. Over everyone who had been right. So freaking much good it did anyone being right in that case. If all that gets you is to be Sam`s adoring flunky, that`s really not an embarassment of riches.  

What did being right get Dean? Acknowledgment? Adoration? Leadership? Anything? 

I disagree.  I didn't see Sam being elevated or anyone being his adoring flunky.  I saw Sam cleaning up his mess - just like any responsible adult should, imo.

Dean already has leadership, he doesn't need to "get it".  Ditto for Adoration (from Sam) and Acknowledgment.  But more importantly, IMO, what Dean got was, as I said, the much better written and more interesting and character-rich scene with Mary.  Yeah, I'd have taken that for Sam over 'leading' the BMOL raid any day.  YMMV.

[Katy M]

Just now, Aeryn13 said:

There were so many rapist!Dean metas/articles out back then and to this day, they prevail. It is usually cited as one of his horrible acts of abuse against poor suffering Sam.

Well, no offense, but I think those people are crazy.  Sam with his soul would have told him to do this if he ever lost his soul.  But, who could predict such a thing?  And, the only other option was to kill Sam outright. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Well, no offense, but I think those people are crazy.  

Agreed.

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

Well, no offense, but I think those people are crazy.  Sam with his soul would have told him to do this if he ever lost his soul.  But, who could predict such a thing?  And, the only other option was to kill Sam outright. 

IA with this completely.  But at the time (at least on the site I was reading then) it was called rape and unforgivable.  I even had a friend (a psychologist, and not normally crazy) who was furious at Sam for forgiving Dean.  It didn't matter when I pointed out otherwise Sam would either have been locked up in the panic room permanently or killed, and the show would be over.  It was the principle of the thing, I assume.  

[Aeryn13]

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Dean already has leadership, he doesn't need to "get it".  Ditto for Adoration (from Sam) and Acknowledgment.

Dean having leadership was never acknowledged either way on the show. When Sam talked about his leadership, Dean said nothing. If the writers wanted me to think of Dean in that regard, they would have put in dialogue there. There was nothing, hence, Dean doesn`t enter into the equation. As per the show right now, he isn`t a leader or leader material, only Sam is.

Whatever has been shown in the past 11 years means nothing if the writers want it to mean nothing. Which is clearly the case.

And Dean gets acknowledgment? I must have missed this in the entirety of Season 12. 

Also adoration? Sam looking at him at best in an amused way like a beloved but dumb dog. At worst in an exasperated way. But inferior in either case. I have a different definition of adoration than that. Then again, the Dean of Season 12.B was such a narcoleptic loser, it was hard to adore something about him.

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I even had a friend (a psychologist, and not normally crazy) who was furious at Sam for forgiving Dean. 

Let me guess, the mirror scene of Sam forcefully resouling Demon!Dean against his will was fine. Because that is usually hunky-dory despite being the fricking same thing. 

Edited July 24, 2017 by Aeryn13

[ahrtee]

7 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Being right doesn't get you anything if you don't act on your "rightness."  Dean thought the BMOLs were bad news, but he still agreed to work with him. 

The ONLY reason Dean agreed to work with them was because of Sam (and Mary, but only to some extent.)  IMO Dean usually gives in when Sam insists on something (he even agreed to work with Ruby) until he either has absolute proof that something is wrong or he can't ignore his spidey sense any more, and then it's usually his instincts that are correct, not that Sam was wrong to be hopeful.  And as someone said upthread, Dean's hunting instincts have always been his best attribute. 

About those who say they want a SL where Sam is right, I'd point out that it's his overall philosophy/POV that has always been shown to be right, even when individual cases turned out badly.

Sam is the one who always insists on giving people (or monsters) the benefit of the doubt.  Even if it doesn't *always* work out right, Dean has never told him to stop or completely ignored him when he insists.  As a matter of fact, Dean has said (over and over) that he needs that perspective to "keep him human."  We saw what Dean without Sam turned into in The End, and it wasn't pretty.  

So, no one wins all the time, or is right all the time.  But they're still applauding Sam's perspective of "innocent until proven guilty" over Dean's "shoot first, ask questions later."  I consider that as a long-term win for Sam.

[Katy M]

17 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Let me guess, the mirror scene of Sam forcefully resouling Demon!Dean against his will was fine. Because that is usually hunky-dory despite being the fricking same thing. 

I agree that they were both basically the same thing. And, I think that they were both fine. Both Sam and Dean, prior to soulless/demon condition, would have said, yeah, fix me if that happens.  Both thanked the other after, I think.  I would say both were better off, but Dean still had the mark at that point, so I guess that may be debatable.

2 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

The ONLY reason Dean agreed to work with them was because of Sam

That's like saying the only reason Adam took a bit of the apple was because Eve offered it to him. Or the only reason some kid went along with a gang rape was because of all his friends.  No.  It doesn't work that way. You're responsible for your own choices.

 

3 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

IMO Dean usually gives in when Sam insists on something (he even agreed to work with Ruby) until he either has absolute proof that something is wrong or he can't ignore his spidey sense any more, and then it's usually his instincts that are correct, not that Sam was wrong to be hopeful.  And as someone said upthread, Dean's hunting instincts have always been his best attribute. 

If that's true that sounds like a character flaw on Dean's part.  But, I think you're over generalizing.  Ruby saved Sam and Dean onseveral occasions.  Yes, Sam trusted her more than Dean did.  Dean didn't really trust her, he just couldn't reconcile what was going on. So, he gave her a bit of the benefit of the doubt by not killing her.  I don't think he was ever happy about Sam working with her and I wouldn't go so far as to say that he was actively working with her.

[Aeryn13]

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If that's true that sounds like a character flaw on Dean's part. 

Folding like a card table for Sam actually is one IMO. If that were me, Sam wouldn`t get away with half as much. And if he made his response to a different opinion or critique it into a "you don`t trust me, boohoo, that makes me feel so bad", he had another smackdown coming. Until he grew out of that fricking mindset. 

I don`t care if he considers certain things blows to his ego, he is certainly not holding it in with cutting down other people`s egos with the way he acts and what he says. But when the wind blows in his direction, he immediately feels victimized by it. That entire speech in the church in the Season 8 Finale was one big blame-shifting victim complex wrapped in presumably taking responsibility for his actions. Bullshit. That attitude needed to go years ago. But Dean feeds it so it only grows. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

31 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

And Dean gets acknowledgment? I must have missed this in the entirety of Season 12. 

You must have missed out on the entirety of the past 12 Seasons as well.

17 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

As a matter of fact, Dean has said (over and over) that he needs that perspective to "keep him human."  We saw what Dean without Sam turned into in The End, and it wasn't pretty.  

What Dean said in The End was "We keep each other human" - and I interpreted that to mean Dean realized he needed to stick around Sam to prevent Sam from saying yes to Lucifer even more so than what Dean became without Sam.  (Which, Dean became what he did, not just because he was without Sam but because Sam had said yes to Lucifer.)

19 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Ruby saved Sam and Dean onseveral occasions.  Yes, Sam trusted her more than Dean did.  Dean didn't really trust her, he just couldn't reconcile what was going on. So, he gave her a bit of the benefit of the doubt by not killing her.

As far as that goes, like @JanetWaldo  pointed out in the All Eps thread, even Anna (the angel) believed Ruby "wasn't like other demons", so I can't fault Sam or Dean for that.

[ahrtee]

38 minutes ago, Katy M said:

That's like saying the only reason Adam took a bit of the apple was because Eve offered it to him. Or the only reason some kid went along with a gang rape was because of all his friends.  No.  It doesn't work that way. You're responsible for your own choices.

 

40 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

IMO Dean usually gives in when Sam insists on something (he even agreed to work with Ruby) until he either has absolute proof that something is wrong or he can't ignore his spidey sense any more, and then it's usually his instincts that are correct, not that Sam was wrong to be hopeful.  And as someone said upthread, Dean's hunting instincts have always been his best attribute. 

If that's true that sounds like a character flaw on Dean's part.  But, I think you're over generalizing.  Ruby saved Sam and Dean onseveral occasions.  Yes, Sam trusted her more than Dean did.  Dean didn't really trust her, he just couldn't reconcile what was going on. So, he gave her a bit of the benefit of the doubt by not killing her.  I don't think he was ever happy about Sam working with her and I wouldn't go so far as to say that he was actively working with her.

Yes, Dean is responsible for his own choices.  But his choices were set up from childhood to protect Sam, and that (usually) means going along with him and not stalking off to do his own thing, because we know that Sam will never change his mind once he thinks he's right.  

So call it a character flaw if you want.  But Dean's prime directive has always been to "take care" of his little brother, even when he disagrees with him, though sometimes he finds a way around it while still giving Sam his choice (see Monster at the End of This Book, where Dean wanted to leave town, Sam insisted on staying and facing Lilith, so Dean gave in but found a way to "protect" him from Lilith, just in case.)  ETA:  That's what he was doing with the BMoL.  He didn't trust them but Sam wanted to work with them, so he went along to watch out for Sam, not because he wanted to work with them (or was even giving them the benefit of the doubt entirely.)  So yeah, maybe it's a character flaw to go against his own feelings so often, but otherwise he ends up estranged from or fighting with Sam, and we've seen enough of that already.)

Dean worked with Ruby several times, most notably in I Know What You Did Last Summer and Heaven and Hell.   He took her advice (grudgingly, but when needed) quite a few times.  No, he never trusted her the way Sam did, but he did give her the benefit of the doubt (as Sam had asked) until he actually challenged Sam to choose between her or him, and Sam chose her.

Edited July 24, 2017 by ahrtee

[Aeryn13]

Quote

You must have missed out on the entirety of the past 12 Seasons as well.

Or I have just a different perspective on the show. Namely that Season 12.B was Samnatural. And Season 13 sounds to be that cubed. 

Besides, I wasn`t saying Dean has never gotten acknowledgment for something. But not in Season 12. 

We will see if Dean, on top of being wrong and mean, will continue to be the damsel in distress in most cases. And Sam, on top of the optomistic speerheading the search for Mary and the nurturing Jack-brigade, will continue to solve all of the cases, find all the clues, build and rebuild the Colt and kill nearly all of the baddies. And be the leader of all. 

What are Sam`s character flaws these days btw? According to the writers I would say he doesn`t have any left. 

And seriously, what does he need Dean for anymore? Is he that hard up for a follower? If he continues to solve all the cases and handle all the action by himself, he can hunt solo. The narrative needs to do something to justify Dean`s continued existance on the show. And fast.

Edited July 24, 2017 by Aeryn13

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

What Dean said in The End was "We keep each other human" - and I interpreted that to mean Dean realized he needed to stick around Sam to prevent Sam from saying yes to Lucifer even more so than what Dean became without Sam.  (Which, Dean became what he did, not just because he was without Sam but because Sam had said yes to Lucifer.)

I think your interpretation is valid but not complete.  Yes, he wanted to keep Sam from saying yes to Lucifer.  But he also saw what he had become (and I think it wasn't just because Sam had said yes, but because he didn't have Sam telling him to stop and rethink or question.)  He told alt!Dean "there is something really broken in you."  Alt!Dean was making "choices I never would have made" because he didn't have Sam pointing out other options or telling him to rethink, and he knew that.  That was why he said "we keep EACH OTHER human," not just that he had to protect Sam from going darkside.  

[Myrelle]

37 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

The ONLY reason Dean agreed to work with them was because of Sam (and Mary, but only to some extent.)  IMO Dean usually gives in when Sam insists on something (he even agreed to work with Ruby) until he either has absolute proof that something is wrong or he can't ignore his spidey sense any more, and then it's usually his instincts that are correct, not that Sam was wrong to be hopeful.  And as someone said upthread, Dean's hunting instincts have always been his best attribute. 

Well, except for some fans' perceptions that he was written as "right" about the BMOLs, I'd say that his hunting instincts and acumen were completely nil in the second half of S12-not to mention his leadership abilities. Any part of that, that some in the fandom might have perceived, was more thanks to the Ackting than anything else, IMO; AND if it was there, it was only seen/shown in relation to the family dynamic, not hunting-because that was all they even put a miniscule of effort into writing for him.

And now apparently and going by the latest CC interviews, this, too, is going to go to Sam in the first half of s13(at least). Oh joy. They're taking that away from Dean and giving it to Sam, too. It's like they're trying to drive away any fan away who thinks of Dean as an individual character, in addition to being Sam's brother because going strictly by the writing of the second half of s12, that must be the "wrong way" to see Dean. IMO and concerning the hunt, Dean was written as simply the "other brother" to Sam(and now, not even the older brother, not truly)whose biggest(and IMO, only) function on this show is to support his family in whatever decisions or actions they might take; and this , even if they are/were shown to be wrong, in a practical sense, about those choices and decisions, in the end.

S12 was the worst written season in this show's history for Dean, IMO. And CC did nothing to make me(or any Deanfan whose opinion I know of and respect) think that 13 will be any better, writing-wise, for the character. So S13 will continue to just be DVR fodder for me, but now it's become the type of fodder that will more likely than ever before be dumped unwatched because, also as other have pointed out, watching Sam pontificate and/or lecture Dean on anything until Dean "acquiesces" to the smarter and wiser SuperSam has become something that I just can't stomach watching at all any longer-and this, no matter what happens by the end of the season.

Edited July 24, 2017 by Myrelle

[Aeryn13]

Quote

It's like they're trying to drive away any fan away who thinks of Dean as an individual character, in addition to being Sam's brother because going strictly by the writing of the second half of s12, that must be the "wrong way" to see Dean. 

Which I think is the case. You are not supposed to like him like that or gasp, favor him. Either watch for Sam or leave. That is IMO the message. And if you watch for Sam, a character just being around to hold Sam`s cape and show us how great Sam is aka a little cheerleader works really well. That character doesn`t need to do anything worthwhile or have anything worthwhile, they just have to stumble three paces behind Sam basically.   

[Myrelle]

3 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Which I think is the case. You are not supposed to like him like that or gasp, favor him. Either watch for Sam or leave. That is IMO the message. And if you watch for Sam, a character just being around to hold Sam`s cape and show us how great Sam is aka a little cheerleader works really well. That character doesn`t need to do anything worthwhile or have anything worthwhile, they just have to stumble three paces behind Sam basically.   

I could not agree more. It is awful what they did to the character last season, IMO. I hope and pray with all my heart and all that's in me that JA will not re-sign and just let this show end already. That is pretty much all that I feel I have left to hope for if Dean Winchester, the character, is to be saved in any way at all now.

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, Aeryn13 said:

Which I think is the case. You are not supposed to like him like that or gasp, favor him. Either watch for Sam or leave. That is IMO the message. And if you watch for Sam, a character just being around to hold Sam`s cape and show us how great Sam is aka a little cheerleader works really well. That character doesn`t need to do anything worthwhile or have anything worthwhile, they just have to stumble three paces behind Sam basically.   

To be fair, I haven't seen too many Dean fans quitting in disgust (though probably the ones that do just don't announce it.)  But all the discussions and complaints I've read seem to indicate that fans on both sides are still watching, even if it's "hate-watching" or eternal optimism that things may change.  

I'm still watching but not with the fervor I used to.  Most of the eps disappear from my mind as soon as the credits roll, but pretty much the only one I turned off in the middle and refused to watch even once is Bloodlines.    

[Aeryn13]

Quote

 That is pretty much all that I feel I have left to hope for if Dean Winchester, the character, is to be saved in any way at all now.

I reckon the show will go on to ep 300. That`s one and a half Seasons and more than enough to thouroughly destroy him and strip him of everything good he ever had or was. I mean, the lions share was already done and in approximately half a Season. 

So, unfortunately, I don`t see how he could be saved at this point. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

10 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Besides, I wasn`t saying Dean has never gotten acknowledgment for something. But not in Season 12. 

Dean got acknowledged for being right about not trusting the BMOL.  Guess you missed that too.

16 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I think your interpretation is valid but not complete.  Yes, he wanted to keep Sam from saying yes to Lucifer.  But he also saw what he had become (and I think it wasn't just because Sam had said yes, but because he didn't have Sam telling him to stop and rethink or question.)  He told alt!Dean "there is something really broken in you."  Alt!Dean was making "choices I never would have made" because he didn't have Sam pointing out other options or telling him to rethink, and he knew that.  That was why he said "we keep EACH OTHER human," not just that he had to protect Sam from going darkside.  

Eh.  Dean said that to Alt!Dean before he knew that Sam had said yes to Lucifer and that's who Future!Dean was trying to kill.  Dean also knew that Sam was still recovering from his demon blood addiction and was in a fragile place right then.  So if he'd come out and said, "I need to keep you human cause otherwise I know you'll say yes to Lucifer" that probably would have gone over like a ton of bricks.  IMO, he used the "we keep each other human" phrasing to hide the fact that he meant he considered it his job to keep Sam human.  

18 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Well, except for some fans' perceptions that he was written as "right" about the BMOLs

I would say this is not just some fans' perception, but the show's interpretation as well, since the BMOL turned out to be bad, Bad, BAD, trying to kill all American hunters.

20 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

And now apparently and going by the latest CC interviews, this, too, is going to go to Sam in the first half of s13(at least). 

Perhaps you missed the part in Jensen's interview where he said He Hadn't Read Ahead.  So, at this point, we simply don't know (and neither does the actor who portrays him) what's in store for Dean for the first half of S13.  

[catrox14]

I think Sam is  often unkind and terse and judgmental and passive-aggressively controlling and he has been since the pilot.  I don't think he's all that nice of a guy a lot of the time which I'm okay with him not always being nice. And yet, IMO those traits are rarely if ever condemned or even remarked on by other characters or show itself.   When Sam was at his nadir in s4, those unpleasant characteristics were couched as "because demon blood".  But that's how I've always seen Sam. I'm not including Soulless Sam in my "analysis" , "because soulless".

When I think back to s1 and s2, Sam was IMO super condescending, mean, and outright snide not only to Dean but occasionally even the VoTW.  He was all over the map. And that may be a function of Kripke still trying to decide if Sam was going to end up being evil or not. I'm not entirely sure if too this day the show can't decide how aligned he's going to be with Lucifer, which is a SL that won't die. 

IIRC, the ONLY character who has ever called Sam out for his IMO tendency to be condescending, patronizing and snide is Dean in s7, when Dean actually told Sam to stop acting like a bitch about the Amy thing. Of course, that was also couched around Dean being kind of 'bad guy' for killing Amy and that he was a misogynistic asshole for telling Sam to stop acting like a bitch".  That was actually condemned as being worse than Sam haranguing Dean constantly about it. 

For me, it's pretty clear where the show is headed with Sam and Dean as of "Who We Are" .  A writer doesn't write a penultimate episode that does what that did with speeches by both Dean and Sam about Sam if they don't intend to keep that dynamic in play.

My eyes practically rolled out of my head onto the floor and I was slackjawed in disbelief, when Robert Beren's script had Dean say, about Sam, to Mary,  "He got possessed by Lucifer".  HOLY RETCON WRITING, BATMAN.  NOPE. Sam Winchester VOLUNTARILY CHOSE to be possessed by Lucifer because of his mistakes and he because he let Lucifer out of the cage in the first place and was fixing what he broke.

Berens had Dean present it to Mary, and the audience, as if Sam was just randomly possessed by Lucifer, as if Lucifer was a demon.  Those words combined with the focus on Baby Sam were juxtaposed with Sam being shown going into battle against the BMOL, which told me exactly how I should expect Sam to be treated in the narrative going forward. He is now THE Head Winchester.  I will eat my hat if the show takes Sam down another comeuppance route after his anointing ceremony in s12. I don't see that happening. I will actually be legitimately surprised if they do that.

Edited July 24, 2017 by catrox14

[catrox14]

17 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

To be fair, I haven't seen too many Dean fans quitting in disgust (though probably the ones that do just don't announce it.)  But all the discussions and complaints I've read seem to indicate that fans on both sides are still watching, even if it's "hate-watching" or eternal optimism that things may change.  

I'm still watching because I love Dean. I'll continue to bitch and moan and praise the show as I see fit, but I am a sucker because I can't quit Dean.

Edited July 24, 2017 by catrox14

[gonzosgirrl]

Paraphrased.

Jensen: Dean is traumatized by the events of 12x23 and can't process the overwhelming losses so he does the only thing he can: try to eliminate the current threat.

Jared: Dean being Dean wants to shoot first, ask questions never.

 

I think that's a pretty accurate representation of how and why we get the Dean we do. Jensen searches for the nuances, gives us more than what's (clearly not) on the page, while the rest of the world dismisses him as a cliched grunt who hasn't grown in 13 seasons.

2 minutes ago, BlueSapphire said:

Since some have expressed concerns in past posts over certain words or expressions used to describe the characters and other stuff show-related, I think the use of "samnatural" is inflammatory and does nothing to further any type of discussion.  Nor is is amusing.  

This is the Bitch vs Jerk thread.

[Aeryn13]

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Dean got acknowledged for being right about not trusting the BMOL.  Guess you missed that too.

When Sam made his hero `"rah rah, follow me" speech, I didn`t hear any part of acknowledging Dean in there. And earlier in the scene where they were still trapped in the bunker, Sam also quickly made it about him and leadership. It wasn`t even really one of his faux-humbles speeches. So meaningful actual acknowledgment for Dean? If only.  Even Dabb`s interview made it clear he didn`t plan on besmirching the great Sam with something as acknowledging the lowly Dean. Because that would be "annoying".   

Quote

Perhaps you missed the part in Jensen's interview where he said He Hadn't Read Ahead.  So, at this point, we simply don't know (and neither does the actor who portrays him) what's in store for Dean for the first half of S13.  

 I`ve heard that so many times. It`s early, things can still happen, they can`t really say and any variation thereof and in 98 % of all cases no spoilers manifested in exactly... no storyline. I`m sure Jensen could have read 23 scripts of the Season and he still wouldn`t have much to say about Dean. 

Dabb and cohorts really can`t make it any clearer than they have at this point. 

[ahrtee]

15 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Eh.  Dean said that to Alt!Dean before he knew that Sam had said yes to Lucifer and that's who Future!Dean was trying to kill.  Dean also knew that Sam was still recovering from his demon blood addiction and was in a fragile place right then.  So if he'd come out and said, "I need to keep you human cause otherwise I know you'll say yes to Lucifer" that probably would have gone over like a ton of bricks.  IMO, he used the "we keep each other human" phrasing to hide the fact that he meant he considered it his job to keep Sam human.  

Your interpretation, from an angry-at-Dean (if not anti-Dean) perspective.  Remember, he told Alt!Dean that he was broken and horrible WELL BEFORE he faced Sam again.  And IMO (again, from a Dean fan perspective) he was afraid of turning into that kind of cold-blooded killer (just like he hated what the MoC was doing to him.)  Dean's sole sense of worth comes from saving people, and being the kind of person he was in The End or with the MoC is pretty much his nightmare, so much that he was willing to go into the Empty (or wherever) so he wouldn't inflict that on the world (and after he realize that even Sam couldn't prevent it).  So, no, not just lying to Sam.  We can agree to disagree.

[Myrelle]

2 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

To be fair, I haven't seen too many Dean fans quitting in disgust (though probably the ones that do just don't announce it.)  But all the discussions and complaints I've read seem to indicate that fans on both sides are still watching, even if it's "hate-watching" or eternal optimism that things may change.

Some will stay to the bitter end. I used to think that I would. But, speaking strictly from my own experience in fandom, this site is the only one that I've checked in with this summer because any others that I used to check in at have become ghost towns or defunct-for whatever reason. And they were all more Deancentric sites, this one being the only bi-bro site that, again, I can find any sign of like-mindedness at concerning the writing for Dean. It's really the only site I've kept up with at all, tbh; and predominantly for, yes, the shared feelings about the writing concerning Dean that no few here still hold and that has virtually disappeared from the internet now, after s12. And just to be clear, this is again only my fandom experience. I don't do twitter, but I have a tumblr account that I keep mostly for the pretty pics and gifs that are fast becoming far more enjoyable to me than anything else about this show.

I wouldn't consider myself "hate-watching", at this  point. It feels more like "hate-following" via the DVR with a side of eternal optimism in hoping that the show will somehow end well for me as a Deanfan-but after CC, even this hope is fading as I type this. I just don't think there's any hope for it anymore-especially if JA has stopped fighting for better writing for the character-and it's just become too hard to watch it end for the character as it seems like it's heading towards-much less discuss it.

So yes, it does feel like they are trying to drive a certain subset away-the ones who think of and have always thought of Dean as an individual character who is a brother to Sam(of course), but who is also his own character and separate from Sam in certain and always-before-held ways.

It's all in JA's hands now because, IMO, too many in his fandom(sorry, not counting the bros-only fandom here for obvious reasons) have thrown in the towel and raised the white flag by giving up on the show and any discussions that the writers might be trying half-heartedly to keep on-going. Dabb and Co are the worst thing that has ever happened to Dean, IMO. It seems  to me, and again CC has just reinforced this sad feeling in me, that his main aim in S13, will be to put a fork in the character for good in order to prop Sam for good. And no one is going to stop him from achieving that end. So it appears to me, anyway.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

12 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Your interpretation, from an angry-at-Dean (if not anti-Dean) perspective.

Actually, No.   You can believe that if you want, of course.  But even the first time I watched that ep, I was neither angry at Dean nor anti-Dean.  I think my interpretation is rather more objective than yours.  I'm still not angry at Dean or anti-Dean, so really don't understand where that is coming from.  I just think the "we keep each other human" was more for Sam's benefit (so as not to lay too much guilt at Sam's feet and 'scare' him away), which is actually a very sympathetic and favorable interpretation towards Dean, imo.  In other words, my interpretation paints Dean as a savvier person (in how to approach Sam) than yours does.