“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

Bessie · June 6, 2017

15 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Like say, when the character needs to go back there. Same as being ripped apart by hellhounds can be referenced when they are hunting one. They would do it with Sam, no questions asked.

Well, they brought back Sam's hell torturer without so much as a mention of it, so probably not. They did however, turn Lucifer into a whiny teenager with daddy issues who Sam teamed up with so that Dean could save the world.

Do I dislike the way they handled Dean's PTSD from hell? Yeah, I think it could've been done better. Do I wish they had? You bet. But Dean is far from the only character who receives this treatment from the writers. For me, this isn't a "versus" issue. It's a series-long weakness that extends across the universe of Supernatural characters.

RulerofallIsurvey · June 6, 2017

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Mentioned by Dean, and by another angel wanting to punish him some more for it. That's not really the spirit of this conversation, or at least not the one I was having.

What does it matter who mentioned it? I thought the quibble was that it never got mentioned by the Show. Those were mentions by the show. Now there are conditions on who has to say it? Oh, I see - this is about tit for tat. Dean mentioned that Sam went to hell to Mary, so now Dean is owed the exact same thing from Sam. I don't agree. 1. That's not how Life works. 2. If that's how it is, then, as @Bessie pointed out, since Sam had to make nice and work with - and even freaking rescue! - his torturer, Alastair needs to come back from the dead so Dean can make nice with him and let him use his bedroom to pout.

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

As to S7, the first 2/3 of the season was about Sam suffering for his time in Hell with Lucifer and everyone around him was pretty darn sympathetic as I recall, with Dean leading it. Considering the number of times Sam has tried to kill Dean while being on demon blood/possessed/soulless/hallucinating, I think that comment from 7.03 is the least he could've said. And he still showed more understanding than he ever got in S4.

More like only the first 2-3 eps of the season - hardly 2/3. 2/3 of 23= approx 15. Sam's hallucinations did not last 15 episodes.

I really don't understand the point of the rest of your comment here - What does how many times Sam has tried to kill Dean under various circumstances when not himself [fwiw - Dean has also tried to kill Sam: most recently when he was a demon. So if all the Sam on demon blood/possessed murder attempts somehow count 'against' him, as it seems they do, based on your comment, then Dean's attempted murder of Sam while a demon counts against him too] have to do with Dean's or Sam's time in hell and that being mentioned/acknowledged in a good way (without also mentioning the bad repercussions such as Sam started the Apocalypse or Dean broke the First Seal) on the show?

As for sympathy from Sam after Dean got out of hell:

4.01 Lazarus rising:

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SAM (breaking DEAN'S grip) I tried everything. That's the truth. I tried opening the Devil's Gate. Hell, I tried to bargain, Dean, but no demon would deal, all right? You were rotting in Hell for months. For months, and I couldn't stop it. So I'm sorry it wasn't me, all right? Dean, I'm sorry.

and then later:

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SAM Hey Dean, what was it like?

DEAN What, Hell? I don't know, I, I must have blacked it out. I don't remember a damn thing.

SAM (nodding) Well, thank God for that.

Not to mention all the sympathy Dean got from Bobby first. Oh, and Dean got to be a badass with his soul intact in Lazarus Rising. The only way Sam was a badass after he got out of hell was when he was soulless - but that wasn't really badassery so much as Sam was a Big Fat Jerk. And once Sam got his soul back? While I thought he was a sympathetic character with the hallucinations, if that had been Dean, I imagine that there would have been complaints that the show was making him look weak and pathetic with the hallucinations.

Edited June 6, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey
was not.

CluelessDrifter · June 6, 2017

14 hours ago, Bessie said:

Well, they brought back Sam's hell torturer without so much as a mention of it, so probably not.

Mmmm . . . I disagree. We had the lead up to Sam reopening the cage with Dean repeatedly telling Sam no and saying Sam of all people knows why not; Sam talking to Sully about having been in the cage with Lucifer, and Sully saying that Sam was just scared of facing Lucifer again, but that meant it was really important, so Sam would face it; Sam admitting he's scared to Dean by saying that having a lump in his throat at the thought of facing Lucifer again isn't an excuse not to do it; Sam's obvious terror at seeing Lucifer again even when Lucifer was in the short-term cage; Sam's obvious terror at being in the cage with Lucifer; Lucifer making references to the last time Sam was in the cage with him; Sam referencing Lucifer torturing him in the cage; and Lucifer talking about torturing Sam in the cage again. Then Sam didn't know that Lucifer got out for 4 episodes and looks pretty scared when he realized it, Cas saved him, and then he banished Lucifer. After that, Sam was a part of trying to exorcise Lucifer out of Cas, but Amara took Lucifer/Cas, and after that Sam helped rescue Lucifer, because it was needs must and Chuck protected them from Lucifer's power. Sam had a fear, faced it, and having faced it attempted to deal with the problem that is Lucifer this season.

Totally agree about them destroying Lucifer by turning him into a whiney teenager though.

Edited June 7, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

Aeryn13 · June 6, 2017

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2. If that's how it is, then, as @BESSIE pointed out, since Sam had to make nice and work with - and even freaking rescue! - his torturer, Alastair needs to come back from the dead so Dean can make nice with him and let him use his bedroom to pout.

Alistair is a character connected with Dean and specifically Dean`s hell-time, ergo the current writers wouldn`t even know who he is. IF he came back, it would be all about how badass!Sam killed him with his powers and they wouldn`t even mention his previous connection to Dean.

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Dean mentioned that Sam went to hell to Mary, so now Dean is owed the exact same thing from Sam. I don't agree. 1. That's not how Life works.

As for this, you asked in a post above "why should Dean get it and not Sam?" To turn that question around then: why does Sam get it and not Dean then? Imbalance is cool as long as it`s in Dean`s disfavour?

RulerofallIsurvey · June 6, 2017

18 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

As for this, you asked in a post above "why should Dean get it and not Sam?" To turn that question around then: why does Sam get it and not Dean then? Imbalance is cool as long as it`s in Dean`s disfavour?

I'm not the not the one advocating a tit-for-tat treatment of both leads. That's a 'be careful what you wish for' scenario if there ever was one. You see imbalance in the way Dean's hell experience has been treated on the show and the way Sam's has. I don't. Difference does not equal imbalance.

companionenvy · June 6, 2017

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

The original point of the discussion was about this one scene being offered up as proof that the show/writers didn`t want to portray Dean as the guy who couldn`t come up with a plan.

So, in all the other scenes where he actually didn`t come up with shit in 12.B, what did they want to get across then? Because I posit it was exactly that: Dean being stupid/lazy/inept.

And then AwesomeO came up with a few more examples of Dean figuring things out out before Sam did, and pointed out that Dean didn't go kill-less even in the infamous "Sam-centric" streak of 8 episodes.

This is a show with two leads, multiple regulars, and a revolving door of one-off characters. In most scenes no one individual character is going to be making plans, getting kills, etc. I mean, in most of the scenes in Swan Song, Sam wasn't defeating Lucifer, either. Does that mean he was inept, lazy, and weak?

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

I don`t need 23 more episodes of valium!Dean to see a clear pattern. I`m there now.

And my point here -- and this is the last post I'll make on this issue -- that I don't agree with the idea that Dean became "valium!Dean" this season. Rather, we had a half-season in which Sam was more prominent in heroic roles, just as there have been runs in which Dean has gotten a disproportionate number of hero moments (including runs in which Sam was not meaningfully Sam at all, at least when it came time for anything resembling action). Hence my belief that, in a show that has run for 250 episodes, we aren't at the point of a real pattern. Here's the episodes on the back half of 12, with my comments:

First Blood -- Sam and Dean are both badass. Dean is more clearly in the leader role.

Lily Sunder -- mainly a Cas episode

Regarding Dean - Dean-centric. Dean gets the kill. Sam needs rescuing.

Stuck in the Middle -- Sam gets the flashy kill, but Dean also kills a demon, and takes more of a lead role on the mission.

Family Feud - Neither brother gets a kill. Dean is first to ID the perp as a ghost. He is also the one who remembers that the Star is Gavin McLeod's ship. Sam articulates the plan, but both Sam and Dean have obviously come to the same conclusion -- Sam looks at Dean, who nods, and then Sam goes ahead and tells Gavin that he could stop this by his death.

The Raid - Sam kills the Alpha Vamp. Dean is off-screen when it goes down, although there is an implication that he probably killed the vampire he was talking to before heading off, and the entire thrust of his conversation with Ketch is predicated on Dean's history as a monster-killer.

Somewhere Between Heaven and Hell - Sam kills the hellhound. At the beginning of the episode, when the boys come in from a hunt, Dean is covered in gore and enthusing about the weapon he got to use. Sure, it is basically a sight gag, but it confirms that Dean is still a badass hunter.

Ladies Drink Free - Neither brother gets a kill. Dean is the one who figures out that Mick is lying to them and calls him out on it. Sam finds the werewolf cure.

The British Invasion -- Neither brother has a major success. Sam talks Mick down from killing Eileen.

The Memory Remains -- This is the one episode where I'd say the "Valium Dean" moniker applies. Sam gets the kill. Dean is damseled, and irresponsibly blows off research for sex.

The Future - Cas-centric. Sam shoots at Dagon but Cas gets the kill. Sam also comes up with the plan to siphon off the nephil's grace, but they never get to use it.

Tasha Banes -- Dean gets the kill.

Final arc -- Sam gets to be leader of the hunters, but Jodi gets the flashiest kill on the raid. Dean figures out how to escape the bunker and bests Ketch in a fight while wounded, although Mary ultimately gets the kill. Dean saves Mary. Neither plays much of a role in the Lucifer and Spawn drama.

I do agree that the show now has a pattern of defaulting to Sam as research guy, which wasn't as much the case in prior seasons.

Putting all of this together, I'd say this recap -- which I think is fairly accurate -- backs up the idea of a comparatively Sam-strong half-season, in which he plays a disproportionate role in their successes, especially with the 3 big kills. I don't think it remotely supports the idea of Dean being depicted as a weakling or a poor hunter, or of Dean being consistently sidelined. By my count, Dean does get 3 kills during this half season, which doesn't include some other good moments like the flight from the feds in First Blood, the fight with Ketch, and confronting Mick on his lie about the werewolf girl. There are two episodes in which he is absent from the main action (The Raid and Somewhere Between Heaven and Hell), and one episode in which he has a pretty poor showing all round. I'm not going back and doing the first half, but I can recall one episode from early in the season in which Dean was MIA (American Nightmare), but also one big kill (jokes notwithstanding, I'd say Hitler definitely has to count), and an opening two-parter in which Sam is the one damseled and Dean is part of the rescue effort (he winds up captured, too, but also gets the "This ape did read a book" moment, complete with punching Toni).

So, as a whole, I stand by the claim that we are nowhere near establishing either a pattern of Dean being sidelined, and that even the more Sam-centric run of episodes doesn't come close to consistently portraying Dean as inept or useless. You could create a pretty damn nice montage of good Dean moments working solely with episodes from the second half of the season. And when we consider that there have also been strings of episodes in which Sam has been comparatively useless (IMO far more than Dean was in this half-season) - and, you know, prone to starting apocalypses -- I think it is especially premature to call this a trend.

Diane · June 6, 2017

17 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

And then AwesomeO came up with a few more examples of Dean figuring things out out before Sam did, and pointed out that Dean didn't go kill-less even in the infamous "Sam-centric" streak of 8 episodes.

This is a show with two leads, multiple regulars, and a revolving door of one-off characters. In most scenes no one individual character is going to be making plans, getting kills, etc. I mean, in most of the scenes in Swan Song, Sam wasn't defeating Lucifer, either. Does that mean he was inept, lazy, and weak?

And my point here -- and this is the last post I'll make on this issue -- that I don't agree with the idea that Dean became "valium!Dean" this season. Rather, we had a half-season in which Sam was more prominent in heroic roles, just as there have been runs in which Dean has gotten a disproportionate number of hero moments (including runs in which Sam was not meaningfully Sam at all, at least when it came time for anything resembling action). Hence my belief that, in a show that has run for 250 episodes, we aren't at the point of a real pattern. Here's the episodes on the back half of 12, with my comments:

First Blood -- Sam and Dean are both badass. Dean is more clearly in the leader role.

Lily Sunder -- mainly a Cas episode

Regarding Dean - Dean-centric. Dean gets the kill. Sam needs rescuing.

Stuck in the Middle -- Sam gets the flashy kill, but Dean also kills a demon, and takes more of a lead role on the mission.

Family Feud - Neither brother gets a kill. Dean is first to ID the perp as a ghost. He is also the one who remembers that the Star is Gavin McLeod's ship. Sam articulates the plan, but both Sam and Dean have obviously come to the same conclusion -- Sam looks at Dean, who nods, and then Sam goes ahead and tells Gavin that he could stop this by his death.

The Raid - Sam kills the Alpha Vamp. Dean is off-screen when it goes down, although there is an implication that he probably killed the vampire he was talking to before heading off, and the entire thrust of his conversation with Ketch is predicated on Dean's history as a monster-killer.

Somewhere Between Heaven and Hell - Sam kills the hellhound. At the beginning of the episode, when the boys come in from a hunt, Dean is covered in gore and enthusing about the weapon he got to use. Sure, it is basically a sight gag, but it confirms that Dean is still a badass hunter.

Ladies Drink Free - Neither brother gets a kill. Dean is the one who figures out that Mick is lying to them and calls him out on it. Sam finds the werewolf cure.

The British Invasion -- Neither brother has a major success. Sam talks Mick down from killing Eileen.

The Memory Remains -- This is the one episode where I'd say the "Valium Dean" moniker applies. Sam gets the kill. Dean is damseled, and irresponsibly blows off research for sex.

The Future - Cas-centric. Sam shoots at Dagon but Cas gets the kill. Sam also comes up with the plan to siphon off the nephil's grace, but they never get to use it.

Tasha Banes -- Dean gets the kill.

Final arc -- Sam gets to be leader of the hunters, but Jodi gets the flashiest kill on the raid. Dean figures out how to escape the bunker and bests Ketch in a fight while wounded, although Mary ultimately gets the kill. Dean saves Mary. Neither plays much of a role in the Lucifer and Spawn drama.

I do agree that the show now has a pattern of defaulting to Sam as research guy, which wasn't as much the case in prior seasons.

Putting all of this together, I'd say this recap -- which I think is fairly accurate -- backs up the idea of a comparatively Sam-strong half-season, in which he plays a disproportionate role in their successes, especially with the 3 big kills. I don't think it remotely supports the idea of Dean being depicted as a weakling or a poor hunter, or of Dean being consistently sidelined. By my count, Dean does get 3 kills during this half season, which doesn't include some other good moments like the flight from the feds in First Blood, the fight with Ketch, and confronting Mick on his lie about the werewolf girl. There are two episodes in which he is absent from the main action (The Raid and Somewhere Between Heaven and Hell), and one episode in which he has a pretty poor showing all round. I'm not going back and doing the first half, but I can recall one episode from early in the season in which Dean was MIA (American Nightmare), but also one big kill (jokes notwithstanding, I'd say Hitler definitely has to count), and an opening two-parter in which Sam is the one damseled and Dean is part of the rescue effort (he winds up captured, too, but also gets the "This ape did read a book" moment, complete with punching Toni).

So, as a whole, I stand by the claim that we are nowhere near establishing either a pattern of Dean being sidelined, and that even the more Sam-centric run of episodes doesn't come close to consistently portraying Dean as inept or useless. You could create a pretty damn nice montage of good Dean moments working solely with episodes from the second half of the season. And when we consider that there have also been strings of episodes in which Sam has been comparatively useless (IMO far more than Dean was in this half-season) - and, you know, prone to starting apocalypses -- I think it is especially premature to call this a trend.

Thank you!

Aeryn13 · June 6, 2017

Quote

Rather, we had a half-season in which Sam was more prominent in heroic roles, just as there have been runs in which Dean has gotten a disproportionate number of hero moments (including runs in which Sam was not meaningfully Sam at all,

And I`d say Dean wasn`t meaningfully Dean as well. Sam still performed all the tasks Sam would normally perform in an episode as well as what Dean would normally do. It wasn`t just the kills even though those rankled.

I think where I fully gave up was the episode where Eileen came back. Yes, she has been more of a Sam character. That`s fine. But there were scenes where the three of them were together, talking and then the camera focused solely on Sam and Eileen while Dean was clearly still in the room.

People may complain about Sam being sent away for scenes where Dean had talks with guest stars in the past but frankly, those scenes with Eileen showed me it is necessary to send whichever brother out of the room/scene or not have him in it from the start if you want to shoot a scene with just two people. It looks awkward as fuck if you shoot a scene and completely ignore a character that is supposed to stand around there. The scene as shot looked like Dean suddenly dissolved during the filming of it. One second he was there and then he was gone.

And that`s the feeling I got for that string of episodes more or less. Jensen has a contract for which they have to pay him a hefty sum per episode so they`ll put him in it but if not for that the script didn`t call for his presence. The Claire ep was written by Glynn who I believe does like the character so there is a bit more of a presence there. But Perez, Berens (especially awful this Season) the Duo (now they have a record of being awful) and Bring gave me nothing.

On the heels of Season 11 where I felt the character had a rather poor showing in terms of MOTW, to have an even worse outing in Season 12 , I`m now at two Seasons where I think Season 1/2-Dean could have easily kick the ass of that shadow-self. I expect from a journey over the course of many Seasons to have the characters better themselves, become stronger and more skilled. Not be inferior to how they started out the show.

Funny aside_:

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That's actually more kills than Dean had all season in season 3 - where if I'm remembering correctly, Dean had 1 (or maybe 2) kill(s) all season - but I don't see many people complaining about season 3 in that regard or saying season 3 purposely made Dean look "weak"

Oh, you weren`t around in the day s of "lamp!Dean." Back then we still got script sides from spoiler sources and the one for the witch episode had Sam killing the main witch. The reaction on Television without Pity was, shall we say, very unfavourable. So people did notice the inaction and were very dissatisfied back then. The actual episode then had the kill switched to Dean. Why that was changed, noone can say.

Bessie · June 6, 2017

34 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Alistair is a character connected with Dean and specifically Dean`s hell-time, ergo the current writers wouldn`t even know who he is. IF he came back, it would be all about how badass!Sam killed him with his powers and they wouldn`t even mention his previous connection to Dean.

Or maybe the writers figure is was eight years ago and believe it has already been dealt with in a sympathetic manner. Im not saying you have to agree with them, but it's not unreasonable to believe the writers are not acting in bad faith here. And that Dean's treatment has nothing to do with favoritism toward Sam or Castiel or Lucifer or Crowley or Mary. Because they've all gotten the same treatment at one time or another with regard to various characterization issues. I don't like it because my enjoyment of Supernatural is derived from the characters and not the plot. But to my mind, Dean isn't the only one getting shafted.

3 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

It looks awkward as fuck if you shoot a scene and completely ignore a character that is supposed to stand around there.

I noticed that years ago when Sam fans would refer to him as wallpaper in a whole bunch of scenes with him, Dean and Cas. So again, this problem isn't specific to Dean or an indication of the writers/directors playing favorites.

As an aside, I would prefer Alistair to Lucifer being on the show any day of the week and twice on Sundays. Bring back Alistair! Unlike whiny Lucifer, he's a scary mofo.

Aeryn13 · June 6, 2017

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I noticed that years ago when Sam fans would refer to him as wallpaper in a whole bunch of scenes with him, Dean and Cas. So again, this problem isn't specific to Dean or an indication of the writers/directors playing favorites.

I`ve never seen it played like in this episode. Usually when it`s a three-person scene, even if the scene focuses on just two characters, the camera will remind you that the third person is there. You get composite shots of them all, you get a reaction shot from person 3 if they don`t get a line of dialogue here and there.

Granted, it might be badly done and the inclusion seem awkward and stilted but even wallpaper you SEE in the scene behind the two speaking actors. This was more like in one camera angle you see the wall-paper and in the next, for the rest of the scene, the wall is completely blank. You might ask yourself "wait a minute, didn`t we start off this scene with wallpaper behind them?"

I haven`t seen such a badly-shot scene in a long, long time. Amateur hour at its finest.

catrox14 · June 6, 2017

1 hour ago, Bessie said:

Or maybe the writers figure is was eight years ago and believe it has already been dealt with in a sympathetic manner. I

Not being snarky here. I'm legitimately asking what you think is the reason for the show to keep bringing Lucifer and Sam's connection back season after season? Do you think there was something left to be sorted about Sam's connection to Lucifer or what?

Bessie · June 6, 2017

Honestly? I think Lucifer was brought back because it gave the writers a storyline for Cas. That's it. I don't think Sam has more of a connection to Lucifer than any other character, beyond his past. I certainly hope he doesn't. That's played out. And if the writers hadn't lacked imagination when it came to developing a plot for Castiel, I wouldn't be subjected to the torturous Lucifer story. And Lucifer would've been done in Season 5. Sure, he still would've been around in Season 7, but only as a symptom of Sam's psychosis, not as an actual character.

catrox14 · June 6, 2017

2 minutes ago, Bessie said:

Honestly? I think Lucifer was brought back because it gave the writers a storyline for Cas. That's it. I don't think Sam has more of a connection to Lucifer than any other character, beyond his past. I certainly hope he doesn't. That's played out. And if the writers hadn't lacked imagination when it came to developing a plot for Castiel, I wouldn't be subjected to the torturous Lucifer story. And Lucifer would've been done in Season 5. Sure, he still would've been around in Season 7, but only as a symptom of Sam's psychosis, not as an actual character.

I gotcha. Thanks for answering!

MysteryGuest · June 6, 2017

10 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

You're not alone. I tend to agree with this. Just like whenever Sam's time in hell is mentioned, it's because 'Sam's a giant egotistical power-tripping screw-up and started the Apocalypse.' How would mentioning Dean's time in hell go? "You know, Dean also went to hell". "You mean the righteous weakling who broke under torture when his daddy didn't and broke the first seal which really started the Apocalypse?" (Heads explode all over fandom and PTV in particular.)

I don't see it that way for either one of them. Dean may have broken the first seal, but he knew absolutely nothing about that when he was in Hell, so I don't blame him for that. Sam may have broken the last seal, but how was he to have known that killing Lillith would do that? He thought that by killing her, he was stopping it. And the whole damn thing was orchestrated by the Archangels, anyway. But what Sam and Dean did do consciously and willingly was stop it, so points to them.

When they went back to Hell in season 11, it would have been very simple to add a short scene between Sam and Dean where they acknowledge what they're about to do, and how that will affect each of them due to the time they spent there. It was a pretty big deal for both of them, and should have left lasting psychic scars. They'd have gone anyway, but reminding the audience might have made their descent back into Hell have a little more impact. It's just little things like that that the writers tend to ignore, but it would go a long way, and at least make you think that the showrunners actually watch their own show.

Bessie · June 6, 2017

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I gotcha. Thanks for answering!

No worries. Tell you the truth, I live in fear that some of the speculation about Sproutifer having a connection to Sam will turn out to be true. I certainly hope not. There's no reason for that.

9 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

When they went back to Hell in season 11, it would have been very simple to add a short scene between Sam and Dean where they acknowledge what they're about to do, and how that will affect each of them due to the time they spent there. It was a pretty big deal for both of them, and should have left lasting psychic scars. They'd have gone anyway, but reminding the audience might have made their descent back into Hell have a little more impact. It's just little things like that that the writers tend to ignore, but it would go a long way, and at least make you think that the showrunners actually watch their own show.

Exactly! Character beats, writers! It's not hard.

catrox14 · June 6, 2017

Can I petition that we officially name "Jack" "Sproutifer" forever and ever?

Also, is Sproutifer's technical name going to be "Jack Kline". That's a terrible name. Or will he be Jack Rooney.

I'm still calling him "Sproutifer"

gonzosgirrl · June 7, 2017

4 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

What does it matter who mentioned it? I thought the quibble was that it never got mentioned by the Show. Those were mentions by the show. Now there are conditions on who has to say it? Oh, I see - this is about tit for tat. Dean mentioned that Sam went to hell to Mary, so now Dean is owed the exact same thing from Sam. I don't agree. 1. That's not how Life works. 2. If that's how it is, then, as @Bessie pointed out, since Sam had to make nice and work with - and even freaking rescue! - his torturer, Alastair needs to come back from the dead so Dean can make nice with him and let him use his bedroom to pout.

More like only the first 2-3 eps of the season - hardly 2/3. 2/3 of 23= approx 15. Sam's hallucinations did not last 15 episodes.

I really don't understand the point of the rest of your comment here - What does how many times Sam has tried to kill Dean under various circumstances when not himself [fwiw - Dean has also tried to kill Sam: most recently when he was a demon. So if all the Sam on demon blood/possessed murder attempts somehow count 'against' him, as it seems they do, based on your comment, then Dean's attempted murder of Sam while a demon counts against him too] have to do with Dean's or Sam's time in hell and that being mentioned/acknowledged in a good way (without also mentioning the bad repercussions such as Sam started the Apocalypse or Dean broke the First Seal) on the show?

As for sympathy from Sam after Dean got out of hell:

4.01 Lazarus rising:

and then later:

Not to mention all the sympathy Dean got from Bobby first. Oh, and Dean got to be a badass with his soul intact in Lazarus Rising. The only way Sam was a badass after he got out of hell was when he was soulless - but that wasn't really badassery so much as Sam was a Big Fat Jerk. And once Sam got his soul back? While I thought he was a sympathetic character with the hallucinations, if that had been Dean, I imagine that there would have been complaints that the show was making him look weak and pathetic with the hallucinations.

The Born-Again Identity was episode 17/23, which is when Cas took on Sam's hell pain and the hallucinations stopped.

And yes, it would be nice if someone else besides Dean mentioned it, but yes, sue me, I'd like it to come from someone else. At this point, his mother would do. As for this:

I really don't understand the point of the rest of your comment here - What does how many times Sam has tried to kill Dean under various circumstances when not himself [fwiw - Dean has also tried to kill Sam: most recently when he was a demon. So if all the Sam on demon blood/possessed murder attempts somehow count 'against' him, as it seems they do, based on your comment, then Dean's attempted murder of Sam while a demon counts against him too] have to do with Dean's or Sam's time in hell and that being mentioned/acknowledged in a good way (without also mentioning the bad repercussions such as Sam started the Apocalypse or Dean broke the First Seal) on the show?

My comment was in response to yours:

DEAN: "New rule. You steal my baby, you get punched. The hell were you thinking, Sam, running off like that? I mean, for all I know, Satan could have been callin' your plays."

Whether or not he was responsible for his actions, or whether Demon Dean was for that matter, the fact remains that Sam had been possessed/influenced (or whatever it was Ellicott did to him when he shot Dean) and suffered hallucinations many times, so Dean was justified in his reaction.

Edited June 7, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

RulerofallIsurvey · June 7, 2017

24 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

The Born-Again Identity was episode 17/23, which is when Cas took on Sam's hell pain and the hallucinations stopped.

Actually, Cas took on Sam's hell pain in 7.17 The Born-Again Identity - a full 6 episodes (1/4 the season) earlier than 7.23. And the hallucinations were not mentioned and did not play a part in the plot in every episode up to 7.17. IMO, it is misleading to count the episodes prior to that where it wasn't a part of the plot.

26 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And yes, it would be nice if someone else besides Dean mentioned it, but yes, sue me, I'd like it to come from someone else. At this point, his mother would do.

Two of the previous examples I gave did not come from Dean.

27 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

My comment was in response to yours:

DEAN: "New rule. You steal my baby, you get punched. The hell were you thinking, Sam, running off like that? I mean, for all I know, Satan could have been callin' your plays."

Okay - THAT quote was from The Girl Next Door and was in response to Sam taking off in the impala while Dean was sleeping at Bobby's cabin with a broken leg. I used it as an illustration that the show mentions of Sam's time in hell aren't necessarily done in a positive way - unlike the way it seems some want Dean's time in hell acknowledged by Sam (ie: "I know that had to be tough for you, Dean.") It still has nothing do with Sam ever having tried to kill Dean, so I don't understand why that is part of the conversation.

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

I don't see it that way for either one of them.

Fwiw - I agree with you. It's just that's not usually the way it's used in the show, especially pertaining to Sam and getting blamed (in Show) for starting the Apocalypse.

catrox14 · June 7, 2017

21 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Actually, Cas took on Sam's hell pain in 7.17 The Born-Again Identity - a full 6 episodes (1/4 the season) earlier than 7.23. And the hallucinations were not mentioned and did not play a part in the plot in every episode up to 7.17. IMO, it is misleading to count the episodes prior to that where it wasn't a part of the plot.

I think Gonzosgrrl meant 17 of 23 episodes (17/23) not 7.23 .

gonzosgirrl · June 7, 2017

49 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think Gonzosgrrl meant 17 of 23 episodes (17/23) not 7.23 .

Exactly, thank you. Episode 17 of 23 , 17/23. Actually a little more than my original statement of 2/3 of the season.

ETA: I personally think the difference in parity between remembering Dean's Hell experience and Sam's is patently obvious. But it's equally as clear that ingrained opinions won't be changed, so I'm done with that conversation, except to say, for me, it was never about what Sam does/doesn't get, it was a legitimate desire for Dean's experience to be recognized when they actually went back to Hell. Or for his ruined childhood and fucked up adulthood to be recognized beyond his being Sam's de facto parent(s).

Edited June 7, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

AwesomO4000 · June 7, 2017

22 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I was referring to Dean in s12.

Sorry about that. Your post mentioned season 11 and since Aeryn was also talking about season 11, I didn't catch the typo and assumed you really meant season 11.

Quote

I was just talking about Dean. I wasn't thinking about Sam's perspective so I'm sorry if something I said implied that my comment was bashing Sam in some way. It wasn't. It was a Dean-centric commentary in how I think the writers see Dean and it wasn't because of Sam per se.

Maybe I should have moved my post to the Dean thread to avoid confusion. I don't know where to put the comment because it wasn't really versus. If any Sam conversation comes of out it then it's not right for bitterness. If I post it in the Dean thread it will potentially sound bitter. I don't know where to post anymore :(

Yeah, my bad. Since part of the discussion was about how the writers ignoring Dean's legitimate feelings was an example of how they must not be interested in him, I incorrectly assumed your post was part of that and so was pointing out that it wasn't just something done to Dean's character, but to Sam as well (and probably other characters if I looked closely enough). But looking back at your post on its own, it wasn't about that.

And I certainly understand the confusion on where to post what... If it's going to sound bitter at all, I play it safe and post it here.

12 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I was talking more about recognizing Dean's time in Hell, especially when Hell is the actual subject.

Ah, sorry about that. I guess then only the episode in season 4 applies off the top of my head, but maybe that trial episode in season 7? I don't know, because that's the only season 7 episode that I never rewatch.

But maybe one of the reasons they don't have Sam mention hell in reference to Dean very often is because legitimately despite Sam feeling awful for Dean about it, in a way, it could open a whole can of worms there in that Sam could legitimately be annoyed that Dean made that deal in the first place and also guilty that he couldn't save Dean... and personally I don't want to see either of those cans of worms - the anger or the guilt - opened in relation to Sam, so I'm kind of glad they just let that sleeping dog lie myself.

8 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

On the heels of Season 11 where I felt the character had a rather poor showing in terms of MOTW,

And I still don't get this. Dean had plenty of MOTW episodes where he shined in season 11. As I said in my previous post Sam had 1 "Super Sam" episode and one point of view episode that had been 11 seasons in coming in my opinion (whereas Dean had had about a half dozen similar episodes in the previous seasons). Dean had the main arc also. It wasn't like Sam dominated every MOTW episode. Granted it wasn't like season 9 and 10 where Dean had the mytharc and dominated quite a few of the MOTW episodes as well, but it wasn't like Dean was shut out.

Examples:

Baby - all Dean
Plush - Dean takes on the ghost so Sam can burn the mask
The Devil in the Details - Dean comes to save Sam
Don't You Forget About Me - Dean kills one of the vampires, Sam gets an assist
Love Hurts - Dean gets the idea to take on the curse which saves the person of the week and then he holds off the monster while Sam finds the heart (after an important assist from the person of the week).
Safe House - Dean takes the harder kill by going into the monster's nest
The Chitters - Dean does all the killing with Caesar if I recall correctly

And if I don't mention a MOTW episode, that doesn't mean that it's necessarily a Sam MOTW episode. Some of the remaining episodes don't have a kill for either brother.

So considering Dean had a pretty good role in the above episodes and had the mytharc as well, I guess I'm just not seeing that Dean had a "rather poor showing in the MOTW" episodes myself. Sam having one episode where he has an over-the-top win, for me, is not a trend for season 11. Neither is Sam having one episode centered on his childhood experiences, especially considering it had been quite a few seasons since we had one (since season 7) and we'd recently had two Dean childhood and/or Dean as a child episodes.

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Oh, you weren`t around in the day s of "lamp!Dean." Back then we still got script sides from spoiler sources and the one for the witch episode had Sam killing the main witch. The reaction on Television without Pity was, shall we say, very unfavourable. So people did notice the inaction and were very dissatisfied back then. The actual episode then had the kill switched to Dean. Why that was changed, noone can say.

No, I watched Supernatural from the very first episode - it was on after Gilmore Girls at the time - but I wasn't in online fandom at that time. I was still in the Buffy/Angel (the Series) fandom back then, usually being called names for liking Spike and season 7's Spike/Buffy relationship. Even though the show was over, I hadn't quite left that fandom yet.

My point though that I don't generally see people claiming that Kripke hated Dean because Dean didn't have a lot of kills and didn't act like himself by sometimes getting outwitted by Bela in season 3 I think still stands.

11 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Assuming that Sam was being chastised again by Dean about the Apocalypse, (which I don't think was happening) the subsequent episodes made it clear that Sam was back on the redemption path as part of his ongoing Hero's Journey. Even, when the narrative for Sam mentions his role in the apocalypse including the negative repercussions, it also allows for Sam to be redeemed by making a sacrifice to right his wrongs as much as he could. It makes clear that despite him making amends he still feels guilty. And most importantly that he is forgiven. That is well trod territory pretty much every season since s5 including and up to s12.

In s11, Sam's Hero Journey, was really revitalized and furthered with Sam once more facing down his lifelong nemesis, Lucifer. and saying no.

I agree with you that Sam got some redemption in season 11, though I'm not sure that I personally would call it revitalizing his hero journey, since Sam was brought pretty low (in other words his character was trashed) in seasons 8-10, in my opinion. And in the end, he didn't really have much of a direct role in stopping Amara which the narrative did make sure to pin directly on Sam.

I may have really liked season 11, but I didn't really see it as a Sam-centric season in terms of the main arc or a hero's journey. That is unless the lesson was supposed to be that Sam learned he's a screw up and so let Dean be the one to fix it... and I don't want to think that that was supposed to be the message/journey.

Quote

If they bring up Dean's Hell time again, in a real meaningful way in s13, then yes they should talk about all of it. Let Dean acknowledge his guilt about Hell. And let him be forgiven by others. Like have someone tell him "I forgive you" in the same way that Sam has been forgiven. I don't know if Anna and Sam saying it wasn't his fault is enough TBH. Anna's "I forgive you" was about Dean selling her out for Sam, but I don't think it was intended to be a blanket forgiveness. I can find no reason in the current narrative with Sam as the person he is now, where Sam would ever say or remind Dean that he was a pussy for breaking in Hell.

This is a lovely thought and one I so wish I could be entirely confident in - and I'll admit that Carver being gone does ease my mind quite a bit - but I've been burned before. I wouldn't have imagined a Sam where he was in season 7 just abandoning Kevin and not looking for Dean in season 8 either, but that's what happened. And I wouldn't have thought that with the person Sam was after season 7, that Sam would hate Benny on sight or seem to threaten him in a revenge scenario for Amy either, but that happened too. And then things seemed to get a little better, and I wouldn't have thought that the Sam we had from season 7 and the seeming to get better Sam from the second half of season 8 and the beginning of season 9 would spout the stuff he did in "The Purge" and then ~~act like an asshat~~ stay angry for most of the rest of the season either, yet that's exactly what happened.

So I'm cautiously optimistic that you're right about this, but I'm not getting my hopes entirely up that Sam will be allowed to keep his character development if it would somehow forward the plot in some way if he didn't. I couldn't find much of a reason that Sam would logically be all "yay, sign me up!" with the BMoL after "The Raid", but that didn't stop that from happening either or the "I was following, because it was easier" stuff, which what?

But I'm going to stop now, because I'm depressing myself, and I'd rather be hopeful and hope that you're right about this.

Edited June 7, 2017 by AwesomO4000

catrox14 · June 7, 2017

7 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I agree with you that Sam got some redemption in season 11, though I'm not sure that I personally would call it revitalizing his hero journey, since Sam was brought pretty low (in other words his character was trashed) in seasons 8-10, in my opinion. And in the end, he didn't really have much of a direct role in stopping Amara which the narrative did make sure to pin directly on Sam.

I may have really liked season 11, but I didn't really see it as a Sam-centric season in terms of the main arc or a hero's journey. That is unless the lesson was supposed to be that Sam learned he's a screw up and so let Dean be the one to fix it... and I don't want to think that that was supposed to be the message/journey

IMO part of a Hero's Journey is being laid low so he can rebuild himself. Learn whatever lessons he's supposed to learn, face his fears and conquer them, etc. And even to some degree, turn the other cheek (If Sam is theoretically a Jesus figure like I wonder about. I don't know whether that is the intention but man it sure would explain his constant being around his enemies and still working with them for the greater good like with Lucifer and the Darkness.) I think Sam's journey was furthered in s12, with him taking a "general" role in leading the hunters. I suspect though he might have another hurdle to deal with but I still think it's all part of Sam's Hero Journey.

I guess I just see Sam going in a better direction unless it's all a huge misdirect and the army Sam really ends up leading is demons or something but that would be a pretty wild thing for Dabb to do. I'd be surprised

catrox14 · June 7, 2017

33 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Sorry about that. Your post mentioned season 11 and since Aeryn was also talking about season 11, I didn't catch the typo and assumed you really meant season 11.

It was a poorly constructed sentence on my part. So I can understand your confusion.

companionenvy · June 7, 2017

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

No, I watched Supernatural from the very first episode - it was on after Gilmore Girls at the time - but I wasn't in online fandom at that time. I was still in the Buffy/Angel (the Series) fandom back then, usually being called names for liking Spike and season 7's Spike/Buffy relationship. Even though the show was over, I hadn't quite left that fandom yet.

Hee! I only watched Buffy/Angel well after it aired, and I'm with you on Spike and Buffy. While I came to like Angel on AtS, I loathed his relationship with Buffy, and loved her with Spike, in all its screwed up glory.

58 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

it's all part of Sam's Hero Journey.

Honestly, I think the show is so haphazardly plotted at this point that I really don't see either brother as being on a deliberate hero's journey for more than the space of a single or at most two-season arc, and even then it is as likely as not to be screwed up in some way. I would be shocked if they were writing with an actual endgame in mind for the show. Maybe Sam and Dean will go out together in a blaze of glory, maybe one will do the sacrifice thing and the other will either soldier on or pursue a more normal life, maybe they'll just do the "we have work to do" non-ending, but I suspect my guess is as good as Dabb's at this point.

Myrelle · June 7, 2017

13 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

If they had only sent Lucifer to the AU world, I would think they had stored him there for further, probable use. Maybe later in the Season. He is evidently one of their pet characters, seeing the contortions they do to keep him around. And if Crowley was dropped for being played out, the same is true for Lucifer.

Since they sent Mary there as well and she is even more of a pet character, the "later in the Season" becomes "pretty early on", if not the Season Opener.

Also, to me it is a moot point if the brothers can even open another portal. They have super-Neph around. He could do it in uterus, he can do it now. The AU world is thus just a plot contrivance away whenever they want it.

That`s why I never remotely felt from the Finale like they were done with the characters, just the opposite. The set-up to bring them back into major play is, at least for Lucifer, so much higher than after last Season`s Finale.

The Season Opener or the second episode might deal with Sam and the Neph having some kind of weird bonding in an Amara 2.0 way. The portal will be opened and we will see Lucifer and Mary again. Something will obviously happen with Cas. Maybe Alt!Cas comes into play first and real!Cas gets resurrected later. Or it happens concurrently with Alt!Cas being a one-episode gimmick. And real!Cas will be suitably different as well.

Dean is the only one who doesn`t have a set-up for Season 13 so far. He was left with Cas but that is inconsequential because he doesn`t have powers to do anything about it. That will most likely fall to Super-Neph.

All of this is why I hated the these last two episodes with the fire of ten thousand fiery suns. The set-up is there for pretty much everything to happen that I've come to hate about this show and that Dabb, in s12, dialed up to an 11 on a scale of 1-10 of most hated happenings that this show has ever given this Spnfan.

I tried to watch those episodes again yesterday with my best friend who hadn't seen them but had to leave her to own devices after Sam's ridiculous "follow me" speech. I couldn't even stay to watch Jensen yet again try(but this time in vain-the writing made sure of that) to make something out of all the pain and damage that Dean went through and suffered as a result of Mary's deal. But the writing made sure to let us know that it was really All About Sam. Again. And I think it speaks to his utter and complete professionalism as an actor that he sold that so well for these asshat writers even while they shit on his own character yet again and some more and for the umpteenth time where it's concerned this issue. Our only hope for any real discussion of how Mary's deal truly affected Dean now lies with Dabb and co. writing that scene between Mary and Sam as it has been made abundantly clear that Dean still won't talk about that aspect of himself-or he won't be allowed to talk about it because that's "just Dean". Whatever. Not surprising at all or in the least, nor will it be surprising to me if when Sam and Mary talk in S13 it will continue to be All About Sam and little else-because that's "just Mary and Sam" for you.

The writing on the wall also spells out Sam as the new Leader of TFW, IMO. With Dean relegated back to being strictly and only the "family" caretaker who makes sure that all of his "family" stays alive and well in order for them to take on their new and shiny S13 storylines. Oh, and he'll get to be the resident hand-wringer again, too, when he can't save them-until they're resurrected in order to take on their shiny new S13 storyline(and likely sans any memory of Dean at all), that is.

As a Deanfan, I've never sat through a more depressing 2 episodes of this show since it's inception than the last two episodes of S12-and this mostly because of all that it doesn't/didn't promise for the character of Dean or this Deanfan, going forward. All I see coming for the character in s13 is just more regression. Character growth? Heh. My Ass and As If with this bunch of writers. They have that all reserved for Sam/JP in his new and completely unearned role of Leader of TFW-again IMO.

I DO wonder how Jensen Ackles feels about his character's supposed "character growth" this season. Does he think that he might get to lead again after the debacle of S12B? Or is he going to continue to take his valium and as such fade gracefully and quietly into the background so that SuperSammySue(and possibly even MotherMarySue, too) can be the shiny new claimants to the Best Hunter(s) on the Planet role(s), while "Old"Dean-who used to embody that role-will be content to just tag along some more with them, and "agree" with them some more(as he predominantly did in S12B and because Samfans on social media have been screaming for Sam to be right "for once", dontchaknow) and possibly get an episode here and there that might involve either saving them some more(again, so they can fulfill their big shiny storylines)or fretting over them when they get hurt-sometimes even unto dying!-again and some more. Oh joy. I can't wait for next season and all the "new", "exciting", and "different" storylines that Dabb and Co have set up for all the characters in these last two episodes-or at least for all the characters that he likes/loves and that he is actually bringing back to his VERY Gamble-like(IMO) version of the new Samnatural, that is). See this is why it pays to be Samfan on this show. You can always count on the writers to apply the Teflon and turn Sam(and now MotherMary, too) from being wrong about something into being right with little more than a wave of their magical keyboards/pens.

I wish I could apply a bleach scrub to my mind and my memory of S12, but Dabb wouldn't allow even that with the garbage that he gave us in these last two episodes of the season. He's ruined even any speculating that I might have wanted to do. Worst showrunner ever, IMO, who very aptly gave this Spnfan the worst season of this show ever. Thanks for nothing, Dabb, Singer, and Co.

RulerofallIsurvey · June 7, 2017

10 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Exactly, thank you. Episode 17 of 23 , 17/23. Actually a little more than my original statement of 2/3 of the season.

My mistake then. I misunderstood your abbreviation. Still, doesn't change the truth of the rest of my comment that not every episode up to 17 of S7 had elements of Sam's hallucinations in the plot. So to include them in saying that the hallucinations took 2/3 of the season is misleading.

Pondlass1 · June 7, 2017

8 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

usually being called names for liking Spike and season 7's Spike/Buffy relationship.

I wouldn't have called you names. I enjoyed all the ups and downs of the Spike/Buffy relationship. And I cried for Spike.

Complex, twisted relationships are the meat and gravy of the TV series industry.

ILoveReading · June 7, 2017

8 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Baby - all Dean

Plush - Dean takes on the ghost so Sam can burn the mask

The Devil in the Details - Dean comes to save Sam

Don't You Forget About Me - Dean kills one of the vampires, Sam gets an assist

Love Hurts - Dean gets the idea to take on the curse which saves the person of the week and then he holds off the monster while Sam finds the heart (after an important assist from the person of the week).

Safe House - Dean takes the harder kill by going into the monster's nest

The Chitters - Dean does all the killing with Caesar if I recall correctly

Baby- was pretty equal. The first half of the episode was about Sam and his visions. Dean didn't even interact with Matt Cohen.

Plush- I found that far more Sam centric, as he seemed to have the majority of the interaction with Donna.

The Devil in The Details- This was far more Sam centric because it was all about his confrontation with Lucifer. Dean was barely in this episode and felt shoe-horned in. He carried a box for Crowley and asked Billy to open the door to hell. Plus, the never seen before or again smiting sickness that took Dean out of his own storyline. Dean didn't save Sam, Cas did. You could easily take Dean out of this episode.

Don't You forget About Me- Don't remember a lot about it, but didn't Claire save the day?

Love Hurts- that horrible conversation at the end where Dean gets to talk about how weak he is and isn't strong enough to take out Amara? (Just ignore that fact that he bested her twice already)

Safe House- Dean ends up possessed and Sam has to save him.

Chitters- I really cant remember anything other than I liked Ceaser better than Jesse.

Other than Baby, Dean really didn't have a stand out Monster of the Week ep.

Katy M · June 7, 2017

11 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Safe House- Dean ends up possessed and Sam has to save him.

Sam didn't save Dean. They BOTH had to draw their sigils. And I would argue that Dean wasn't possessed, because his spirit was on the other side. Just his body was possessed.

12 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

The Devil in The Details- This was far more Sam centric because it was all about his confrontation with Lucifer. Dean was barely in this episode and felt shoe-horned in. He carried a box for Crowley and asked Billy to open the door to hell. Plus, the never seen before or again smiting sickness that took Dean out of his own storyline. Dean didn't save Sam, Cas did. You could easily take Dean out of this episode.

Sure, you could, but why would you want to? You could take Sam out of the next episode. You could take either one of them out of a number of episodes just by reworking. heck, you could take Sam out of this episode and just have Cas go into the cage for some other reason.

ILoveReading · June 7, 2017

10 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Sure, you could, but why would you want to? You could take Sam out of the next episode. You could take either one of them out of a number of episodes just by reworking. heck, you could take Sam out of this episode and just have Cas go into the cage for some other reason.

If I recall, the episode after was Into The Mystic. Sam played a big part in that ep, so reworking it wouldn't be easy it would be a major rewrite, whereas removing Dean from Devil in The Details, wouldn't require much effort. It felt like Dabb wrote the episode then went' 'oops. I forgot Jensen has to be in this ep." The whole point of DiTD was written around Sam's confrontation with Lucifer.

No episode last season, other than the back half of Baby was written around Dean. He was there, but he wasn't the central figure of the episode. I don't count Alpha and Omega since we know that it went through extensive rewrites, with input from J2M2.

Edited June 7, 2017 by ILoveReading

Katy M · June 7, 2017

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

If I recall, the episode after was Into The Mystic. Sam played a big part in that ep, so reworking it wouldn't be easy it would be a major rewrite, whereas removing Dean from Devil in The Details, wouldn't require much effort.

You missed my point. It doesn't matter how much or little effort is required. Of course, you could write either one out of most episodes. But, the fact that they are there means that they are there. I love Dean's "Have you met me?" retort to Crowley. I loved his little interaction with Billie when he said Sam said that she was going to kill them and she corrected him on exactly what she said. Why would we want to lose these moments? It's like you hate Dean that you are constantly begging for him to be taken out of any episode where it's not Dean-centric. I never see people begging Sam removed from Dean-centric, or Cas-centric episodes. Not even from In the Beginning, where that would be really easy to write him out. Speaking of which, there has never been any episode where Dean has only had one line of dialogue.

ILoveReading · June 7, 2017

34 minutes ago, Katy M said:

It's like you hate Dean that you are constantly begging for him to be taken out of any episode where it's not Dean-centric.

I think you're missing my point. I'm not actually saying he should be removed from the ep, when I say he can be. I'm talking about the characters impact on the outcome of the episode, as it stands. It's not the same things as 'begging for him to be removed.'

If I hated Dean, I wouldn't care how he was used in an episode. So I strongly disagree. I don't hate Dean.

For me, its Quality over Quantity. I'd take 5 minutes of Dean in an episode where he had something important to do, rather than 42 minutes of him standing around doing nothing.

As for ITB, there were plenty of complaints when that news broke.

Edited June 7, 2017 by ILoveReading

RulerofallIsurvey · June 7, 2017

58 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Baby- was pretty equal. The first half of the episode was about Sam and his visions. Dean didn't even interact with Matt Cohen.

This is, imo, an example of when exaggeration (It's not hyperbole, because by definition, hyperbole is something that is obviously not meant to be taken literally and that doesn't seem to apply here) really does not help support whatever point is trying to be made. That entire conversation - from the start of Sam's vision (which was around the 0:09:00 mark) to when Sam said "goodnight, jerk" to Dean (which included a good bit of interaction with Dean and Dean talking about the Darkness and his dreams of Mary) - lasted around 10 minutes. That's not 'the first half of the episode' in a 41+ minute run time ep.

Interestingly (to me anyway), Sam 'disappeared' from the ep when he got out of Baby to look for copper pennies and Mrs. Markham woke up. He's seen in the rearview mirror running after the car and shooting out the back window around the 0:31:52 mark. We don't see him again until after the 0:39:20 mark. That's actually longer than Dean was 'missing' from American Nightmare. And yet, I don't think I've ever seen anyone complain about Sam 'missing for half the episode' like I see about Dean in AN.

Diane · June 7, 2017

1 minute ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

This is, imo, an example of when exaggeration (It's not hyperbole, because by definition, hyperbole is something that is obviously not meant to be taken literally and that doesn't seem to apply here) really does not help support whatever point is trying to be made. That entire conversation - from the start of Sam's vision (which was around the 0:09:00 mark) to when Sam said "goodnight, jerk" to Dean (which included a good bit of interaction with Dean and Dean talking about the Darkness and his dreams of Mary) - lasted around 10 minutes. That's not 'the first half of the episode' in a 41+ minute run time ep.

Interestingly (to me anyway), Sam 'disappeared' from the ep when he got out of Baby to look for copper pennies and Mrs. Markham woke up. He's seen in the rearview mirror running after the car and shooting out the back window around the 0:31:52 mark. We don't see him again until after the 0:39:20 mark. That's actually longer than Dean was 'missing' from American Nightmare. And yet, I don't think I've ever seen anyone complain about Sam 'missing for half the episode' like I see about Dean in AN.

So true!

Aeryn13 · June 7, 2017

Quote

And I still don't get this. Dean had plenty of MOTW episodes where he shined in season 11.

I don`t have a single one MOTW episode of Season 11 where I can say. And Baby was fine, I also liked that episode with the soulless people thought that might count as mytharc for the Amara tie-ins. I also liked Chitters for the other hunter duo as I found them to be well-done characters. Points to Safe House for the Rufus/Bobby interaction in the past which was fun and one moment in the climax of the episode.

But other than that, I thought the mytharc episodes of Season 11 were poor. There is not one that is great to me, not Baby and nothing else. A good scene here or there wasn`t enough to make the episode overall enjoyable to me.

Like, sure the story about the submarine crew and Delphine was in itself pretty heroic but that doesn`t mean I don`t consider it a crushing disappointment for a time-travel ep. I would have preferred simple flashbacks depicting the history of the MacGuffin hand then instead of Dean pointlessly being there as a witness.

If it is about Dean "shining" in an ep. Even Season 12 had one in Regarding Dean, a very pleasant surprise IMO. But there is no episode of Season 11 I can legitimately make that claim.

Quote

For me, its Quality over Quantity. I'd take 5 minutes of Dean in an episode where he had something important to do, rather than 42 minutes of him standing around doing nothing.

I wholeheartedly agree. That`s why IMO you could easily take out Dean of a lot of 12.B and a lot of Season 11 MOTW episodes. I don`t care what small moments on the side he did have, I`d rather take one scene of substance instead.

To me it is more honest to not basically photoshop a character into an episode if they don`t contribute anything substantial to its plot.

Quote

And yet, I don't think I've ever seen anyone complain about Sam 'missing for half the episode' like I see about Dean in AN.

Here or in general? Because I have seen plenty of complaints about just that. There are places for everything on the internet and some Sam-fans are certainly just as bitter as some Dean-fans.

Ironically, there are shows where reactions in general seem much, much more bitter than what I`ve seen for SPN with either fan faction.

Edited June 7, 2017 by Aeryn13

ILoveReading · June 7, 2017

4 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

This is, imo, an example of when exaggeration (It's not hyperbole, because by definition, hyperbole is something that is obviously not meant to be taken literally and that doesn't seem to apply here) really does not help support whatever point is trying to be made. That entire conversation - from the start of Sam's vision (which was around the 0:09:00 mark) to when Sam said "goodnight, jerk" to Dean (which included a good bit of interaction with Dean and Dean talking about the Darkness and his dreams of Mary) - lasted around 10 minutes. That's not 'the first half of the episode' in a 41+ minute run time ep.

Interestingly (to me anyway), Sam 'disappeared' from the ep when he got out of Baby to look for copper pennies and Mrs. Markham woke up. He's seen in the rearview mirror running after the car and shooting out the back window around the 0:31:52 mark. We don't see him again until after the 0:39:20 mark. That's actually longer than Dean was 'missing' from American Nightmare. And yet, I don't think I've ever seen anyone complain about Sam 'missing for half the episode' like I see about Dean in AN.

By my personal defintion of "centric" the first half of Baby was more centered on Sam. The 2nd was more centered on Dean.

For me, the difference between American Nightmare and Baby is that Sam was an important part of the Baby episode, whereas I don't feel like Dean played any part on American Nightmare.

But we can agree to disagree and I'm going to bow out of this conversation.

Aeryn13 · June 7, 2017

Quote

whereas I don't feel like Dean played any part on American Nightmare.

Yeah, the stupid "Dean does feelings wrong" stuff didn`t necessarily need to be, well, anywhere. If a script was too long, that kind of thing would be exactly the fat I`d trim. The plot was with Magda and her family and the connection was Sam and his previous psychicness so he in turn could connect to her. To tell that story you don`t need any other characters.

That`s why to this day I posit that no Winchester was needed in Season 7. The Leviathan story could be told without them. It was actually the one Season where Sam had a supernatural side plot but even he had no purpose in the overall Season. Let alone Dean and that depression emo bullshit masquerading as a "story" for the character. Bobby was actually the only character who seemed to have a point in this Season.

gonzosgirrl · June 7, 2017

17 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

This is, imo, an example of when exaggeration (It's not hyperbole, because by definition, hyperbole is something that is obviously not meant to be taken literally and that doesn't seem to apply here) really does not help support whatever point is trying to be made. That entire conversation - from the start of Sam's vision (which was around the 0:09:00 mark) to when Sam said "goodnight, jerk" to Dean (which included a good bit of interaction with Dean and Dean talking about the Darkness and his dreams of Mary) - lasted around 10 minutes. That's not 'the first half of the episode' in a 41+ minute run time ep.

Interestingly (to me anyway), Sam 'disappeared' from the ep when he got out of Baby to look for copper pennies and Mrs. Markham woke up. He's seen in the rearview mirror running after the car and shooting out the back window around the 0:31:52 mark. We don't see him again until after the 0:39:20 mark. That's actually longer than Dean was 'missing' from American Nightmare. And yet, I don't think I've ever seen anyone complain about Sam 'missing for half the episode' like I see about Dean in AN.

But we knew where Sam and what he was doing in Baby. Dean disappeared without explanation in American Nightmare.

CluelessDrifter · June 7, 2017

3 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

My mistake then. I misunderstood your abbreviation. Still, doesn't change the truth of the rest of my comment that not every episode up to 17 of S7 had elements of Sam's hallucinations in the plot. So to include them in saying that the hallucinations took 2/3 of the season is misleading.

Meet the New Boss

Hello, Cruel World

The Girl Next Door

Defending Your Life

Shut Up, Dr. Phil

Slash Fiction

The Mentalists

Season Seven, Time for a Wedding

How to Win Friends and Influence Monsters

Death's Door

Repo Man

Out with the Old

The Born-Again Identity

13/23 episodes with direct references = approximately 56%, so not quite 66.6%.

Things shifted somewhat after Bobby died, so while Sam was referenced as being screwed up or asked if he was fine, it kind of fits under the umbrella of losing Bobby and having hallucinations, which would cover Adventures in Babysitting and The Slice Girls. If you add those two into it, then you get almost 65%, which is very close to 66.6%.

Time After Time and Plucky Pennwhistle's Magic Menagerie didn't have reference to Sam's state of mind (obviously PPMM referenced his fear of clowns, but that doesn't really count under this particular category).

Just to put accurate numbers to it. :)

Edited June 7, 2017 by CluelessDrifter
Counted something twice

Katy M · June 7, 2017

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But we knew where Sam and what he was doing in Baby. Dean disappeared without explanation in American Nightmare.

Dean went to talk to/kill the social worker/not witch.

gonzosgirrl · June 7, 2017

Just now, Katy M said:

Dean went to talk to/kill the social worker/not witch.

There are a lot of posts addressing this already, but the discrepancy is referring to the time lapse from Dean hearing Sam in trouble on the phone, and the next time we see him, it's morning and he's arriving at the scene being 'sorry he missed all the psycho', with no explanation or even logical assumption to be made as to where he was all that time.

catrox14 · June 7, 2017

3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Dean went to talk to/kill the social worker/not witch.

Dean left her office to get to Sam. That's when he went missing with no explanation

gonzosgirrl · June 7, 2017

5 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

Meet the New Boss

Hello, Cruel World

The Girl Next Door

Defending Your Life

Shut Up, Dr. Phil

Slash Fiction

The Mentalists

Season Seven, Time for a Wedding

How to Win Friends and Influence Monsters

Death's Door

Adventures in Babysitting (blanket 'are you fine' after Bobby dying on top of everything else, but it covers everything IMO)

Repo Man

Out with the Old

The Born-Again Identity

14/23 episodes with direct references = approximately 61%, so not quite 66.6%, but close as an approximation.

Things shifted somewhat after Bobby died, so while Sam was referenced as being screwed up or asked if he was fine, it kind of fits under the umbrella of losing Bobby and having hallucinations, which would cover Adventures in Babysitting and The Slice Girls. If you add those two into it, then you get almost 70%.

Time After Time and Plucky Pennwhistle's Magic Menagerie didn't have reference to Sam's state of mind (obviously PPMM referenced his fear of clowns, but that doesn't really count under this particular category).

Just to put accurate numbers to it. :)

Thank you! And for the record, my assertion was that S7 was for the most part a recognition of Sam's Hell time, not how many episodes featured his hallucinations. I stand by that, fractions and decimal points notwithstanding. *g*

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Dean left her office to get to Sam. That's when he went missing with no explanation

Yes. And while we didn't see Sam during the time lapse, it was logical because it was Baby's POV and he was not there. When Dean went to get him after, we see him again, obviously injured from his part of the hunt. He didn't just disappear without reason or explanation.

RulerofallIsurvey · June 7, 2017

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

There are a lot of posts addressing this already, but the discrepancy is referring to the time lapse from Dean hearing Sam in trouble on the phone, and the next time we see him, it's morning and he's arriving at the scene being 'sorry he missed all the psycho', with no explanation or even logical assumption to be made as to where he was all that time.

First - Dean wasn't "arriving at the scene" in American Nightmare. We didn't literally see him pulling up in the impala. The car was already parked when the camera zoomed in and he was standing next to Sam as the mom was lead away by police. While one interpretation could be that he'd arrived at the farm only moments before the scene begins, that is by no means the only interpretation available. IMO, Sam and Dean standing next to each other at that point supports my theory that he'd been there awhile. 'Missed all the pyscho' could easily be interpreted to mean missing when the killing via stew part, not whatever happened next as we didn't actually see what happened next.

To be honest, the same sort of argument could be made about Sam's 'disappearance' in Baby. Last we saw him was at the convenience store, running after the car. The next time we see him, he's back at Mrs. Markhams house with her kids. How did he get there? There is no explanation.

29 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Here or in general? Because I have seen plenty of complaints about just that. There are places for everything on the internet and some Sam-fans are certainly just as bitter as some Dean-fans.

Here. I don't bring back grievances from elsewhere on the net to here. I don't think that would be fair to everyone else. :) I'm sure one you can find whatever you want to find on the internet. I'm sure there are much more bitter fandoms than any side of SPN (even here). But imo, none of that has any bearing (or should anyway) on this forum.

24 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But we knew where Sam and what he was doing in Baby. Dean disappeared without explanation in American Nightmare.

Really? See my comment above about Sam. We know where he was when Mrs. Markham drove off and we know where he was the next time we see him. But we don't know what he was doing in the mean time or how he got to where he was (which was a different place than when we left him).

Same deal for Dean. We know where he was when we last saw him: on the phone outside the DSS building getting in the car. We know where he was next time we see him: standing next to Sam at the farm. And in Dean's case, we even know how he got there: he drove!

Bessie · June 7, 2017

35 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And for the record, my assertion was that S7 was for the most part a recognition of Sam's Hell time, not how many episodes featured his hallucinations.

Maybe I'm not following this thread correctly. I don't think anyone is denying that Sam's time in hell has been addressed. What I'm arguing is that Dean's time in hell has also been addressed. You may not like how that was done, but it was done. I guess my question is why your dislike of how Dean's time in hell was handled has anything to do with Sam?

Edited June 7, 2017 by Bessie

catrox14 · June 7, 2017

10 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Thank you! And for the record, my assertion was that S7 was for the most part a recognition of Sam's Hell time, not how many episodes featured his hallucinations. I stand by that, fractions and decimal points notwithstanding. *g*

Yes. And while we didn't see Sam during the time lapse, it was logical because it was Baby's POV and he was not there. When Dean went to get him after, we see him again, obviously injured from his part of the hunt. He didn't just disappear without reason or explanation.

My current headcanon is that Magdas farm was in an alternate dimension where nights are only 3 hours long and Dean went through a invisible wormhole between the SW office building and the farm. Wibbley wobbly timey wimey....stuff.

I really want to know if they filmed anything for Dean between him leaving her office and getting there in the daylight well after sunrise and it was cut. It was seriously Bugs level of shoddy editing/writing. I feel like direction is unlikely the issue because it was John Showalter is a decnt director. I would be shocked that he left a 7 minute gap with one of the coleads MIA with no explanation.

Katy M · June 7, 2017

16 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Last we saw him was at the convenience store, running after the car. The next time we see him, he's back at Mrs. Markhams house with her kids. How did he get there? There is no explanation.

Actually, there is. The sheriff sent him a text from Dean's phone sending him there.

RulerofallIsurvey · June 7, 2017

33 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

14/23 episodes with direct references = approximately 61%, so not quite 66.6%, but close as an approximation.

Things shifted somewhat after Bobby died, so while Sam was referenced as being screwed up or asked if he was fine, it kind of fits under the umbrella of losing Bobby and having hallucinations, which would cover Adventures in Babysitting and The Slice Girls. If you add those two into it, then you get almost 70%.

Time After Time and Plucky Pennwhistle's Magic Menagerie didn't have reference to Sam's state of mind (obviously PPMM referenced his fear of clowns, but that doesn't really count under this particular category).

Just to put accurate numbers to it. :)

May I ask what criteria you are using for 'direct reference'? I searched the transcripts and couldn't find any reference to Lucifer, Hell (as pertains to Sam), mind (as again pertains to Sam's mind) or hallucination in Slash Fiction, The Mentalists, Death's Door, Adventures in Babysitting (Dean asks Sam how he's doing at the end, but then Sam also asks Dean how he's doing. So...that may or may not be in context of the hallucinations. You count it. I don't.)

Just to put accurate numbers to it. :) So, by my count that makes 10/23 episodes with direct references (even though Defending Your Life, Shut Up Dr. Phil, Season 7, Time for a Wedding, only had one line each, which hardly makes the entire plot about Sam's hallucinations.) = approximately 43%. Still less than half.

17 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Actually, there is. The sheriff sent him a text from Dean's phone sending him there.

I didn't remember that. Thanks. :) Still no explanation of how he got there though, was there? Did he walk?

Aeryn13 · June 7, 2017

Quote

I guess my question is why your dislike of how Dean's time in hell was handled has anything to do with Sam?

The question was adressed to me but for me the difference is the sheer magnitude of time spent on each hell. Dean went to hell at the end of Season 3 and it was adressed in Season 4. And afterwards, it was, except for very miniscule reminders or dialogue lines that belittled it, dropped. Over and done with.

Sam went to hell at the end of Season 5. From that sprung a supernatural storyline in the first half of Season 6 - the soullessness - which morphed into the second half of Season 6 - the memories behind the wall. Death himself remarked on his suffering in hell. The Season 6 Finale had triple-Sam dealing with hell. In Season 7 Sam had the Lucifer hallucinations dealing with his hell. Season 11 brought back Lucifer and the cage and everything for at least a mini-arc, culminating in Sam once again confronting Lucifer.

And my question is: is Dean considered so much less interesting that a couple of episodes in Season 4 are enough to tell a story as big as going to hell? When Sam comparatively is considered so much more worthy to adress it in a major way for multiple Seasons. Even when Dean character has to go back to hell, there isn`t even one line of dialogue to harken back to it? Why is so little effort put forth for his stories? The level of disappointment that gives me is beyond words. Quite frankly it always feels like punishment for liking the wrong character. In a "either watch for Sam or fuck off" manner. That kind of stuff makes me resentful whenever writers do it.

Edited June 7, 2017 by Aeryn13

RulerofallIsurvey · June 7, 2017

25 minutes ago, Bessie said:

I guess my question is why your dislike of how Dean's time in hell was handled has anything to do with Sam?

Thank you. That's what I don't understand.

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