“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[ILoveReading]

5 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Yup. And for a show supposedly about two people apparently THAT is no problem. For several episodes. Just the mere idea of giving a tiny thing for Dean to do in one episode however is. God forbid he would have gotten to fix the Colt amidst all the Sam killing the Alpha Vamp, super hellhound, goat God and coming up with the Spawn solution. All with NO participation from Dean in any of those.   

This episode I fully expect this episode to take the following path..

Spoiler

Sam, being asleep in the car for most of it since this is the ep filming when JP's daughter was born.  My guess is he was up all night fixing the colt.  Then Dean will get his ass handed to him by whatever is after  the witch twins, then Sam waking up in the nick of time to save the day, with the fixed colt.

Edited May 3, 2017 by ILoveReading

[FlickChick]

9 hours ago, shang yiet said:

Sam should have rescued Dean from hell. I wanted the victory for him.

Apparently Kripke agreed with you and then those pesky writers and their strike got in the way of that. I actually liked the addition of Castiel to the story. And Sam turned dark enough for me during S4 even without saving his brother, so I wouldn't have wanted to see him even darker. JMO

[ster1]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

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  And no I am not saying that Dean is not capable, because he is, but this being a show about both people I don't expect Dean to do it all. I am worried about the Dean and Cas thing too. I am hoping that they are not going with Cas not being himself.  Hopefully we will learn more tomorrow night.

 

 

The problem isn't Dean doing it all.  Its Dean doing nothing at all.  Sam takes the leads in all the hunts, Sam comes up with all the ideas, Sam takes the lead in interviewing witnesses, Sam bonds with all the guest stars, Sam gets all the kills and does all the research.

Meanwhile, Dean lost every skill he's had.  He can't come up with plans or ideas, he's not researching, he's making dumb mistakes and can't even hold onto a weapon.

I'm not asking for Dean to do it all, just to do something. 

 

2

This. As a Dean fan, I'm finding less & less incentive to tune in every week.  Watching Dean stand around, wringing his hands, while Sam does everything just isn't my idea of entertainment.

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Yup. And for a show supposedly about two people apparently THAT is no problem. For several episodes. Just the mere idea of giving a tiny thing for Dean to do in one episode however is. God forbid he would

  Reveal hidden contents

have gotten to fix the Colt

amidst all the Sam killing the Alpha Vamp, super hellhound, goat God and coming up with the Spawn solution. All with NO participation from Dean in any of those.   

 

don't forget killing a Prince of Hell

[FlickChick]

I have to believe at this point, the lack of Dean doing anything of value on the screen (while he isn't sent off-screen for no reason) by virtually every writer, has to be deliberate, and not story-related. There have been several episodes that didn't even need Dean to show up at all - and that has NEVER HAPPENED IN PREVIOUS SEASONS. It has become obnoxious and I can only conclude that it is because Dabb wants it that way. NO WAY are various individual writers all going to eliminate inclusion of one of the co-stars in so many episodes. I just can't understand WHY! Why, as mentioned above, is Dean not allowed to be more in the action while Sam seems to be front and center in every major scene? I wonder how Jensen feels about this? Or if he even cares anymore at this juncture. How sad and insulting to him. :( JMO

[mertensia]

On 4/27/2017 at 8:53 PM, ILoveReading said:

 

Dean doesn't research anymore, he can't fight or hold on to a weapon, and he's the only character who didn't get to fire the colt.

Dean killed Azazel with the Colt. Or do you mean since then?

[Goldmoon]

Quote

I wonder how Jensen feels about this? Or if he even cares anymore at this juncture. How sad and insulting to him.

I know. I wonder what he did to piss Dabb off, and whether Dabb simply imagined whatever slight to his ego that he perceived.  And I wonder if it is causing a rift in real life between the Js.  They seem to truly be close in real life, but surely they have noticed the lack of balance in the writing.  I would hope that Jared would object to their duo  turning into a solo act.

[ster1]

2 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

I have to believe at this point, the lack of Dean doing anything of value on the screen (while he isn't sent off-screen for no reason) by virtually every writer, has to be deliberate, and not story-related. There have been several episodes that didn't even need Dean to show up at all - and that has NEVER HAPPENED IN PREVIOUS SEASONS. It has become obnoxious and I can only conclude that it is because Dabb wants it that way. NO WAY are various individual writers all going to eliminate inclusion of one of the co-stars in so many episodes. I just can't understand WHY! Why, as mentioned above, is Dean not allowed to be more in the action while Sam seems to be front and center in every major scene? I wonder how Jensen feels about this? Or if he even cares anymore at this juncture. How sad and insulting to him. :( JMO

1

Actually, that could be said of this entire season.  The only episodes where Dean did much of anything - the Hitler episode and Remember Dean -were both filler.  In the rest, Dean just provided backup, stood there, or disappeared while others saved the day.  Take Dean out of S12 and almost nothing changes.

[Idahoforspn]

14 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

I have to believe at this point, the lack of Dean doing anything of value on the screen (while he isn't sent off-screen for no reason) by virtually every writer, has to be deliberate, and not story-related. There have been several episodes that didn't even need Dean to show up at all - and that has NEVER HAPPENED IN PREVIOUS SEASONS. It has become obnoxious and I can only conclude that it is because Dabb wants it that way. NO WAY are various individual writers all going to eliminate inclusion of one of the co-stars in so many episodes. I just can't understand WHY! Why, as mentioned above, is Dean not allowed to be more in the action while Sam seems to be front and center in every major scene? I wonder how Jensen feels about this? Or if he even cares anymore at this juncture. How sad and insulting to him. :( JMO

I am wondering what Dabb has against Jensen. There has to be something because that is the only thing that explains the writing. JMO

Just now, Idahoforspn said:

I am wondering what Dabb has against Jensen. There has to be something because that is the only thing that explains the writing. JMO

I also think the ratings will fall again. 1.36 maybe or lower. That clip will cause even more Dean fans to not bother watching live.

[ILoveReading]

14 minutes ago, mertensia said:

Dean killed Azazel with the Colt. Or do you mean since then?

I meant this season.

[Demented Daisy]

Isn't it possible that Jensen asked for this?  Why does everyone assume that Dabb hates Dean/Jensen?

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

Isn't it possible that Jensen asked for this?  Why does everyone assume that Dabb hates Dean/Jensen?

Jensen asking for Dean to no longer behave like the badass, smart, action oriented hero in his own show in which he has historically been so proud of Dean being a badass if he got nothing else?  I wouldn't think so.

Jensen asking for a work reduction for family stuff? Sure but that doesn't require Dean be written the way he has this season. 

IMO I'm still hoping for a GOOD story reason for this with Dean. Thus far, I'm coming up short.

[ster1]

Jensen is the biggest Dean fan out there. He loves badass Dean just as much as his fans do. Even if Jensen did ask for some extra time off,  I can't see him asking for Dean to be neutered and/or be made irrelevant. The last times those happened under Gamble & Carver, Jensen made it pretty clear he wasn't thrilled. 

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

IMO I'm still hoping for a GOOD story reason for this with Dean. Thus far, I'm coming up short.

 

I'd love to believe this as well but the writing this season has been extremely linear and without any real depth. I'm pretty sure "what we see is what we'll get" in terms of the storytelling.  

[ILoveReading]

Also Jensen's reaction to the back half of s8 when asked what was in store for Dean in s9, his answer was "I'm glad I'm not playing guilty cheerleader anymore."

Even if Jensen did ask for more time off, it doesn't explain why he's written the way he is.  Why he doesn't come up with the plans or have the scenes with the guest stars. The Memory Remains is a good example.  They wrote a fight scene for Dean, which he ended up losing.  It wouldn't be that taxing on Jensen to let Dean win it.  Or let Dean fire the colt.  There were two bad guys, they could have each killed one.

Edited May 3, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Demented Daisy]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Jensen asking for Dean to no longer behave like the badass, smart, action oriented hero in his own show in which he has historically been so proud of Dean being a badass if he got nothing else?  I wouldn't think so.

 

4 minutes ago, ster1 said:

Jensen is the biggest Dean fan out there. He loves badass Dean just as much as his fans do. Even if Jensen did ask for some extra time off,  I can't see him asking for Dean to be neutered and/or be made irrelevant.

I guess I'm just not seeing it.  I'm curious to get to my end-of-season stats because the first half was fairly standard.

But that still doesn't answer my question -- why do people think that Dabb hates Dean/Jensen?  Why do you think that any member of TPTB would intentionally hurt the show?  

One more thing:

10 minutes ago, ster1 said:

The last times those happened under Gamble & Carver, Jensen made it pretty clear he wasn't thrilled. 

Link?

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

Also Jensen's reaction to the back half of s8 when asked what was in store for Dean in s9, his answer was "I'm glad I'm not playing guilty cheerleader anymore."

This, too.

[ILoveReading]

5 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

 

I guess I'm just not seeing it.  I'm curious to get to my end-of-season stats because the first half was fairly standard.

But that still doesn't answer my question -- why do people think that Dabb hates Dean/Jensen?  Why do you think that any member of TPTB would intentionally hurt the show?  

One more thing:

Link?

This, too.

http://www.screenfad.com/comic-con/supernatural-press-room-comic-con-season-9-spoilers-1937

There is video too.

Edited May 3, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Demented Daisy]

Thanks, I just watched and I'm confused.  What is your interpretation of that comment?

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

Thanks, I just watched and I'm confused.  What is your interpretation of that comment?

That Jensen prefers Dean being in the thick of action and that he wasn't thrilled with how his character was written in the back half of s8 and he was glad that story was done. 

He's also said at various conventions he was disappointed that demon Dean ended soon, and wishes they would revisit purgatory.  I don't  have links but I'm sure they're on youtube.

Edited May 3, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Demented Daisy]

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

That Jensen prefers Dean being in the thick of action and that he wasn't thrilled with how his character was written in s8 and he was glad that story was done. 

Hmm.  I disagree, but fair enough.

[ster1]

16 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

 

One more thing:

Link?

 

 

http://www.thefutoncritic.com/interviews/2010/09/24/interview-supernatural-co-stars-jensen-ackles-and-jared-padalecki-37581/20100924_supernatural/

[Demented Daisy]

Again, thanks, but that was in reference to one, maybe two episodes at the beginning of season 6.  Anything on Carver?

ETA  I'm not suggesting that Jensen has been happy with every storyline that the show has done.  Obviously, he hasn't and has voiced his displeasure.  I'm just trying to figure out why people think he would be dissatisfied with what is happening this season.

Edited May 3, 2017 by Demented Daisy

[ster1]

16 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

http://www.screenfad.com/comic-con/supernatural-press-room-comic-con-season-9-spoilers-1937

There is video too.

 

I was at that Comic Con and Jensen also made that comment during the panel session in Hall H.  And yes, it sounded like he wanted Dean to get back to being a badass hunter, instead of just cheering Sam on during the Trials.

[catrox14]

Just now, Demented Daisy said:

But that still doesn't answer my question -- why do people think that Dabb hates Dean/Jensen?  Why do you think that any member of TPTB would intentionally hurt the show?  

I'm not speaking for anyone else, but I don't think they hate Jensen. I wouldn't know. I don't think they think they are hurting the show. 

It's like most of this season iMO. Mary's SL is a big bust for many viewers but they are doing something they think is interesting.  They seem to be in love with the Lucifer Spawn SL, much of the audience is not.  I think the big goal starting midway in s11 was rehabbing Sam's characterization after s8 through s10, which seems to be continuing into s12.

As a real outside idea, giving Sam the ability to do ALL the things without Dean could be setting up Dean's exit. I don't  think that is what is actually happening but I'm putting in my back pocket. Maybe Jensen wants out, maybe he's got a great movie role and he'll need to be away for some of s13. I don't think that is actually the case, but it sure would help this viewer, swallow all this.  

[ster1]

6 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

Again, thanks, but that was in reference to one, maybe two episodes at the beginning of season 6.  Anything on Carver?

By the end of September, they'd already filmed about 8 episodes and Jensen would have seen the scripts for at least one more. 

Jensen also commented during the SF Con (winter of season 6) about how Peter Roth had reassured him that Dean "would be back." I don't have the link offhand but you could probably find it.  

The Carver era comment was about guilty cheerleader Dean/the trials. 

Edited May 3, 2017 by ster1

[ILoveReading]

7 minutes ago, ster1 said:

I was at that Comic Con and Jensen also made that comment during the panel session in Hall H.  And yes, it sounded like he wanted Dean to get back to being a badass hunter, instead of just cheering Sam on during the Trials.

I thought it was also telling that when asked what Dean was doing, Jensen answer was  "Not much, just driving the car."

I also remember watching that panel, online  If IIRC it was more than half way through before Jensen even spoke or had anything to say.

I also remember s7 when Jensen was asked point blank what Dean's story was and he said  point blank, "he doesn't have one."

Edited May 3, 2017 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Demented Daisy said:

Again, thanks, but that was in reference to one, maybe two episodes at the beginning of season 6.  Anything on Carver?

Jensen has mentioned at various cons that he was disappointed with the early truncation of both Purgatory and demon!Dean.

Re Purgatory, from the Oral History of Supernatural in Variety  published in 2014

Quote

Ackles: One of my most favorite storylines was Dean in Purgatory. If there was one storyline that I wish would’ve dragged out much longer, it would’ve been that one. I would’ve liked to have seen more of what Dean was up against in Purgatory and how he lived and how he existed in that realm and among those things down there and how he was able to survive. And he befriended Benny [Ty Olsson], who I thought was a great character… I was sad to see [him] go when he did.

[Demented Daisy]

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't think they think they are hurting the show. 

Wouldn't intentionally sidelining one of the leads (as so many have suggested they are doing) hurt the show?  Why wouldn't they know that?

Honestly, this is not a new assertion.  Usually, admittedly, people assert that one character is intentionally being written to be a jerk/bitch to make the other look better and I have always, for the record, disagreed with that assessment for the same reason -- to do so would hurt the show in the eyes of at least half the fandom and would make no sense.

Even if Dabb wanted to intentionally sideline or minimize Dean's importance to the show, he is not the last word in what happens on the show.  I would be shocked if Dabb wanted to damage the character of Dean -- and even more shocked if everyone just let him do it.

Edited May 3, 2017 by Demented Daisy
Research -- will re-edit as needed.

[Demented Daisy]

5 minutes ago, ster1 said:

By the end of September, they'd already filmed about 9 episodes and Jensen would have seen the scripts for at least one more. 

Jensen also commented during the SF Con (winter of season 6) about how Peter Roth had reassured him that Dean "would be back." I don't have the link offhand but you could probably find it.  

Yeah, I don't do that.  If someone makes an assertion, I won't do their research.

Meanwhile, my interpretation of Jensen's comments on season 6 was that he was specifically referring only to Dean's time with Lisa:

Quote

With the changes in the dynamic between the brothers, however, Ackles admitted that it took some time to get used to the new direction of Dean and he wasn't necessarily happy about it. "There was a big kind of shift in Dean's character, actually much to my chagrin. I was not happy with it. Dean was really kind of being written soft and I've spent five years with this guy being a shoot-first-ask-questions-later kind of guy and now all of a sudden he's lived one year in more of a domesticated life and he's gone soft on us. I was upset as a fan of the show myself. I did my best to curb that in the acting. It read pretty soft on the page."

Not that it was a problem for the entire season up to that point.  But mileage always varies.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Demented Daisy said:

Wouldn't intentionally sidelining one of the leads (as so many have suggested they are doing) hurt the show?  Why wouldn't they know that?

I thought I answered it with the entirety of my comment. They are writing for what they want to write, regardless.

hey had Sam be addicted to demon blood, hook up with a demon, kill a human nurse and become  soulless. They had Sam not look for Dean in s8. They had Dean let an angel possess Sam. They turned Dean into a demon. They gave Dean the MoC and turned him into a murdering murderer that murdered. TThey do all manner of things to the characters that arguably  could hurt the show. 

Maybe they thought to rehab Sam they had to take things from Dean which has the unfortunate unintended consequence of neutering Dean. They may very well NOT know that this is how many Dean fans feel. Or they don't care. Or they have something else planned that has not shown itself yet. 

[Demented Daisy]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I thought I answered it with the entirety of my comment. They are writing for what they want to write, regardless.

hey had Sam be addicted to demon blood, hook up with a demon, kill a human nurse and become  soulless. They had Sam not look for Dean in s8. They had Dean let an angel possess Sam. They turned Dean into a demon. They gave Dean the MoC and turned him into a murdering murderer that murdered. TThey do all manner of things to the characters that arguably  could hurt the show. 

What you're talking about is specific storylines, though.  I'm asking why TPTB would think that sidelining a character wouldn't hurt the show.

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

What you're talking about is specific storylines, though.  I'm asking why TPTB would think that sidelining a character wouldn't hurt the show.

I don't know how else to answer you.I feel I've answered the question you are asking. I think it is intentionally taking Dean out of the action but I don't know why.  I'm saying they are writing what they want to write. If that has the consequence of sidelining a character to write what they want to write then so be it.

[Demented Daisy]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't know how else to answer you.I feel I've answered the question you are asking. I think it is intentionally taking Dean out of the action but I don't know why.  I'm saying they are writing what they want to write. If that has the consequence of sidelining a character to write what they want to write then so be it.

Okay, so you think that TPTB are intentionally sidelining Dean/Jensen to tell whatever story they want to tell, but you can't figure out what that is.  Have I got that right?

[ster1]

1 minute ago, Demented Daisy said:

Yeah, I don't do that.  If someone makes an assertion, I won't do their research.

 

 

 Wasn't asking you to. But as I understand it, this thread is a bitterness thread for opinions, not outright debate. As the mods have said, "Please remember our golden rule of ‘Be Civil’; there are no right or wrong opinions here, only different ones. Nobody has to justify their opinion or back it up with facts."  So I"m not sure why you're so fixated on having us "prove" our points,  just because you don't agree. 

[Demented Daisy]

5 minutes ago, ster1 said:

 Wasn't asking you to. But as I understand it, this thread is a bitterness thread for opinions, not outright debate. As the mods have said, "Please remember our golden rule of ‘Be Civil’; there are no right or wrong opinions here, only different ones. Nobody has to justify their opinion or back it up with facts."  So I"m not sure why you're so fixated on having us "prove" our points,  just because you don't agree. 

You said that you didn't have a link to a quote, but that I could probably find it.  To which I replied that I don't go searching for info that others assert to be out there.  

Secondly, I have asked no one to "prove" anything.  I have asked for clarification, which is how discussion works.  I was under the impression that the Bitterness thread was for bitterness, not this one.  I thought that discussion was called for here.  I'll get clarification.

[companionenvy]

I agree that this hasn't been a great Dean season, but I don't think there's any deliberate plan to sideline him by the writers -- nor do I think it has been AS dire for him as others seem to (or that dissimilar from other periods where one or the other of the boys -- usually Sam -- didn't get to be as badass for a while).

More likely, I think what is going on is some combination of this:

1. The writers are much less in the habit of score-keeping than fandom. Thus, while Dabb and co might occasionally notice "hm... it has been a while since X has had a win. Better change that," they aren't trying to keep it scrupulously even. As far as they are concerned, at this point, both characters are obviously Big Damn Heroes, and so they don't worry so much if a higher than average number of eps are either Dean or Sam centric.

2. Mary's return is more of a Dean-plot than a Sam-plot, so the writers are defaulting to giving Sam more of the kills because they don't have as much of a handle on what else to do with him, whereas they have a sense of Dean and Mary's relationship as a season-long arc, or at least sub-arc. 

3. There are a lot of different writers, so none of them individually realizes that any score-evening needs to happen. Dabb could intervene if he saw it as a major problem, but since he doesn't, then no need to mess with the scripts. It just so happens a bunch of hero-Sam scripts came in the back half of this season, but the pendulum will swing back to Dean eventually. Dean may even get some great moments in the remaining episodes of this season.

4. Some of the new writers are much less familiar with the characters than fandom is, which makes it easy to default to shallow characterizations like "Sam is the research guy" or "Dean eats a lot and hits on women." Ideally, Dabb would catch these -- but again, I think this is a problem, to the extent that it is a problem, that is much more apparent to someone who is a major Dean fan than to someone who is relatively bi-bro. 

I think all of this is a lot more plausible than Dabb or the writers room as a whole disliking Dean or Jensen. 

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Also Jensen's reaction to the back half of s8 when asked what was in store for Dean in s9, his answer was "I'm glad I'm not playing guilty cheerleader anymore."

I'm glad that I don't pay much attention to what the actors (or writers or directors) have to say.

I've seen this quote before, but I never have understood it, especially the "guilty" part. I personally didn't see it, but why would Dean be especially guilty in the second half of season 8? Well, beyond Deans usual guilt that is, but that had been part of the character for 7 seasons before that, so... Besides Dean got to be especially badass in the first half of season 8 while Sam played dysfunctional house with Amelia. It wasn't like Sam was killing bad guys left and right either even in the second half of the season.

3 hours ago, ster1 said:

By the end of September, they'd already filmed about 8 episodes and Jensen would have seen the scripts for at least one more. 

Jensen also commented during the SF Con (winter of season 6) about how Peter Roth had reassured him that Dean "would be back." I don't have the link offhand but you could probably find it. 

Then those episodes would have included "Live Free or Twihard" which in my opinion couldn't have been much more badass Dean if it tried. I mean in that episode Dean not only had the mental wherewithal to resist the pull of bloodlust that not even Gordon could fight, he then, without feeding and therefore potentially being presumably not at full strength, proceeded to single-handedly kill an entire nest of vampires, including the head vampire. How much more badass does Dean have to get to not be considered "soft?"

And as for "back," Dean did get to be fairly badass - and resourceful - in the second half of the season, getting quite a few big kills.

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I also remember s7 when Jensen was asked point blank what Dean's story was and he said  point blank, "he doesn't have one."

I know that some would agree with him, but I think Jensen was very wrong and misleading personally. Dean's storyline for season 7 was twofold: first he was dealing with loss and betrayal and second, starting with episode 10, he had a revenge arc. And that revenge arc - for better or for worse - directed much of his behavior for the rest of the season. Was Dean spinning his wheels with his Dick Roman research and drive... yes he was, but that wasn't much different from Sam's revenge arc from season 4. And I think that was somewhat purposeful. I think it was a comment on how potentially destructive revenge can be, especially if that revenge is your main raison d'etre. This has been a consistent theme with this show - with John, with Sam, with Cas (in season 11-12 with Lucifer), with Crowley (also Lucifer), and this was Dean's turn at it. Dean knows how potentially hollow revenge can be, but he also knows - as he told that hunter partner of the guy who's brother was killed by the cicada spirit - it's still something you have to let a loved-one (or yourself) do.

It was a pretty straight-forward arc, but it was an arc. Dean told Dick Roman that he would kill him, and then he spent the rest of the season making sure that that would happen. The arc explored the tole that losing his family base, his home base, and the need for revenge took on Dean. Maybe things likely would've been explored more after purgatory if Sera had continued on, but Carver decided instead to ignore that emotional journey and just skip to the end... and instead substitute more - and in my opinion nonsensical - "brother" angst instead.

But what I think should have happened with Dean and how he could have been affected by purgatory would be a whole nother - and long - post that likely no one but me would be interested in... and since it involves a somewhat iffy Benny - which to me would have been so much more interesting arc-wise for Dean... and Benny - would likely not go over very well either.

[PAForrest]

11 hours ago, catrox14 said:

As a real outside idea, giving Sam the ability to do ALL the things without Dean could be setting up Dean's exit. I don't  think that is what is actually happening but I'm putting in my back pocket. Maybe Jensen wants out, maybe he's got a great movie role and he'll need to be away for some of s13. I don't think that is actually the case, but it sure would help this viewer, swallow all this.  

If Jensen doesn't want out, it sure appears like Dabb is trying to force him to want to break his contract. And that actually does happen, this maneuver has been done before on other shows and will continue to happen. Cutting back on an actor's screen time, or not giving an actor anything to do week after week after week, and making his/her character completely irrelevant is a classic showrunner move to try and force an actor out that said showrunner or the network/studio has no just cause to outright fire.

Wouldn't make the demotion/destruction of Dean Winchester any easier to swallow for this one-time viewer, but at least unhappy fans would know there was a definitive end in sight.

As for Dabb not knowing what's going on, sorry, that doesn't wash - it's his job to look over the scripts and have an idea what his producers are writing if for no other reason than to insure that his vision or whatever you want to call it is marching along toward his endgame. And it's not just newbies who are only writing for Sam while Dean stands off to the side blinking, it's every producer including the vets who are all writing the same exact thing every week. That's what makes it look like this is indeed the direction the showrunner is asking for.

Edited May 4, 2017 by PAForrest

[ILoveReading]

Dean this season is reminding me so much of Alec in the back half of season 2 of Dark Angel.  Alec's screen time and coverage drastically diminished and his skills and abilities deteriorated.   

Ricky Whittle, a former star of The 100, recently spoke about this in an article.  He mentioned that the show runner made his character irrelevant,, drastically reduced his lines, never gave him anything important to do.  

Whether that is happening with Dean on SPN, I have no idea but it certainly seems to be following the pattern of those two examples. 

I don't buy its just new writers either because with the exception of Perez, I thought both Glynn and Yockey did pretty good job with Dean, and the first half wasn't great for any character but it felt more balanced.  They didn't write Dean as incompetent and barely knowing which end of the gun to hold. (when he can hold on to it that it, or find the hunt in the first place..)  His relationship with Mary was the same as it is now, and the shift int he writing of Dean happened before Cas disappeared so that explanation also doesnt' work.    Since episode 12 its tipped so far in Sam's direction Dean might  as well not even be on the playing field. 

8 hours ago, companionenvy said:

. Mary's return is more of a Dean-plot than a Sam-plot, so the writers are defaulting to giving Sam more of the kills because they don't have as much of a handle on what else to do with him, whereas they have a sense of Dean and Mary's relationship as a season-long arc, or at least sub-arc. 

I'm not really sure I'd call Mary's return more of a Dean plot since they were both included equally.  Even after Mary left we still saw Sam taking Mary's side and trying to play peace maker between Dean and Mary.   I think its more Sam and Dean were a part of Mary's plot rather than the other way around.

If they're following back on shallow characterizations of Sam, brainy research guy or Dean, brawny guy that eats a lot, then Dean should be the one winning the fights, but he's not.  If he even manages to show up before all the action is over. 

 

8 hours ago, companionenvy said:

3. There are a lot of different writers, so none of them individually realizes that any score-evening needs to happen.

Perez's interview shows this isn't true.  He flat out said he gave the kill to Sam because Dean already got to kill one. 

I think Dabb has a clear bias toward Sam.  It dates back to comic con last year.   I believe Dabb was unofficially in charge last year, because he was at comic con rather than Carver.  All he could talk about was Sam's visions.  Nothing was mentioned about the Dean/Amara connection despite the entire premier revolving around it.  Then the bare minimum was with it.  Plus, Form and Void, The Devil in The Details and 11.17 all follow the pattern with Dean that we are seeing now.  

Dean was pretty irrelevant in the premier.  Cas found the lead on Sam, and Dean got taken down easily by Toni's hench woman.  Dean did get nice moment in First Blood but Dabb also made it clear that that Dean broke first. 

Which is why I don't believe Dabb hasn't noticed. 

[Diane]

10 hours ago, companionenvy said:

I agree that this hasn't been a great Dean season, but I don't think there's any deliberate plan to sideline him by the writers -- nor do I think it has been AS dire for him as others seem to (or that dissimilar from other periods where one or the other of the boys -- usually Sam -- didn't get to be as badass for a while).

More likely, I think what is going on is some combination of this:

1. The writers are much less in the habit of score-keeping than fandom. Thus, while Dabb and co might occasionally notice "hm... it has been a while since X has had a win. Better change that," they aren't trying to keep it scrupulously even. As far as they are concerned, at this point, both characters are obviously Big Damn Heroes, and so they don't worry so much if a higher than average number of eps are either Dean or Sam centric.

2. Mary's return is more of a Dean-plot than a Sam-plot, so the writers are defaulting to giving Sam more of the kills because they don't have as much of a handle on what else to do with him, whereas they have a sense of Dean and Mary's relationship as a season-long arc, or at least sub-arc. 

3. There are a lot of different writers, so none of them individually realizes that any score-evening needs to happen. Dabb could intervene if he saw it as a major problem, but since he doesn't, then no need to mess with the scripts. It just so happens a bunch of hero-Sam scripts came in the back half of this season, but the pendulum will swing back to Dean eventually. Dean may even get some great moments in the remaining episodes of this season.

4. Some of the new writers are much less familiar with the characters than fandom is, which makes it easy to default to shallow characterizations like "Sam is the research guy" or "Dean eats a lot and hits on women." Ideally, Dabb would catch these -- but again, I think this is a problem, to the extent that it is a problem, that is much more apparent to someone who is a major Dean fan than to someone who is relatively bi-bro. 

I think all of this is a lot more plausible than Dabb or the writers room as a whole disliking Dean or Jensen. 

 

9 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I'm glad that I don't pay much attention to what the actors (or writers or directors) have to say.

I've seen this quote before, but I never have understood it, especially the "guilty" part. I personally didn't see it, but why would Dean be especially guilty in the second half of season 8? Well, beyond Deans usual guilt that is, but that had been part of the character for 7 seasons before that, so... Besides Dean got to be especially badass in the first half of season 8 while Sam played dysfunctional house with Amelia. It wasn't like Sam was killing bad guys left and right either even in the second half of the season.

Then those episodes would have included "Live Free or Twihard" which in my opinion couldn't have been much more badass Dean if it tried. I mean in that episode Dean not only had the mental wherewithal to resist the pull of bloodlust that not even Gordon could fight, he then, without feeding and therefore potentially being presumably not at full strength, proceeded to single-handedly kill an entire nest of vampires, including the head vampire. How much more badass does Dean have to get to not be considered "soft?"

And as for "back," Dean did get to be fairly badass - and resourceful - in the second half of the season, getting quite a few big kills.

I know that some would agree with him, but I think Jensen was very wrong and misleading personally. Dean's storyline for season 7 was twofold: first he was dealing with loss and betrayal and second, starting with episode 10, he had a revenge arc. And that revenge arc - for better or for worse - directed much of his behavior for the rest of the season. Was Dean spinning his wheels with his Dick Roman research and drive... yes he was, but that wasn't much different from Sam's revenge arc from season 4. And I think that was somewhat purposeful. I think it was a comment on how potentially destructive revenge can be, especially if that revenge is your main raison d'etre. This has been a consistent theme with this show - with John, with Sam, with Cas (in season 11-12 with Lucifer), with Crowley (also Lucifer), and this was Dean's turn at it. Dean knows how potentially hollow revenge can be, but he also knows - as he told that hunter partner of the guy who's brother was killed by the cicada spirit - it's still something you have to let a loved-one (or yourself) do.

It was a pretty straight-forward arc, but it was an arc. Dean told Dick Roman that he would kill him, and then he spent the rest of the season making sure that that would happen. The arc explored the tole that losing his family base, his home base, and the need for revenge took on Dean. Maybe things likely would've been explored more after purgatory if Sera had continued on, but Carver decided instead to ignore that emotional journey and just skip to the end... and instead substitute more - and in my opinion nonsensical - "brother" angst instead.

But what I think should have happened with Dean and how he could have been affected by purgatory would be a whole nother - and long - post that likely no one but me would be interested in... and since it involves a somewhat iffy Benny - which to me would have been so much more interesting arc-wise for Dean... and Benny - would likely not go over very well either.

Both of you said this so much better than I ever could. 

[DittyDotDot]

15 hours ago, Demented Daisy said:

Isn't it possible that Jensen asked for this?  Why does everyone assume that Dabb hates Dean/Jensen?

I've been wondering that too. Not that Jensen asked for Dean to be less of a badass, but he asked for more time off and cutting out some of the timely stunts that make Dean so badass could be how they achieved it?

While I agree that Dean isn't as badass this season--although, I think it makes sense within the narrative of the season so it hasn't bothered me--I hesitate to assume it's because Dabb hates Dean and/or wants Jensen off the show altogether. I hesitate to even assume it might just be that Dabb just doesn't give a crap about badassery in general considering no one has been particularly badass, IMO.

I think there's probably a lot of factors going on that's hampering Dean getting to be the badass of yesterday, but I would doubt any of those things are that Dabb dislikes Dean and/or Jensen. It's entirely befuddling to think Dabb signed up to be showrunner for a show where he actively dislikes one of the two main characters. That just doesn't track for me. And, Dabb has to know that actively trying to get Jensen to leave the show would be the end of the show and the loss of his own job. Again, that doesn't make sense to me.

But, that's why I hesitate to assume, you just never know and you know what they say about assuming...

Edited May 4, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I've been wondering that too. Not that Jensen asked for Dean to be less of a badass, but he asked for more time off and cutting out some of the timely stunts that make Dean so badass could be how they achieved it?

While I agree that Dean isn't as badass this season--although, I think it makes sense within the narrative of the season so it hasn't bothered me--I to assume it's because Dabb hates Dean and/or wants Jensen off the show altogether. I hesitate to even assume it might just be that Dabb just doesn't give a crap about badassery in general considering no one has been particularly badass, IMOI hesitate to assume it's because Dabb hates Dean and/or wants Jensen off the show altogether. I

I think there's probably a lot of factors going on that's hampering Dean getting to be the badass of yesterday, but I would doubt any of those things are that Dabb dislikes Dean and/or Jensen. It's entirely befuddling to think Dabb signed up to be showrunner for a show where he actively dislikes one of the two main characters. That just doesn't track for me. And, Dabb has to know that actively trying to get Jensen to leave the show would be the end of the show and the loss of his own job. Again, that doesn't make sense to me.

But, that's why I hesitate to assume, you just never know and you know what they say about assuming...

 

If you want see a case study in the reduction of, and subsequent terrible departure, one of two extremely popular co-leads and half of the duo that made the show work, look no further than Sleepy Hollow. Maybe I'm suffering PSHSD, but I don't like what is happening with Dean.

 I'm curious what you find in the narrative of this season that makes Dean being less badass and less involved, appropriate. Geniunely curious because maybe I could understand what's happening with Dean if there is something I missed in the narrative or something your interpreting that explains it.

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm curious what you find in the narrative of this season that makes Dean being less badass and less involved, appropriate. Geniunely curious because maybe I could understand what's happening with Dean if there is something I missed in the narrative or something your interpreting that explains it.

Well, as I've said, I think Dean is in a good place this season. I disagree that he's not been as involved--think he's been just as involved as Sam has been all season--but do agree he's not punching things as much. Which works for me if he's not needing to punch things as much.

[Pondlass1]

A few seasons ago Dean would've said 'Can WE fix it?".   But with this Dab & Co bunch, Sam & Dean are now 'boxed' into a rigid set of personalities and abilities.  We no longer have multi-dimensional brothers making complex flawed decisions.  Sam can do this, Dean can do that. And not vice versa!!!  Dean hits on women, Sam frowns with resignation.  Dean fixes the car, Sam fixes supernatural weapons. An so it goes... probably all the way into season 13.

In fact everyone's been pretty much flattened out and made one-dimensional.  Even the plots!

And we have to understand that the network absolutely, positively does not care what the fans want. TV shows are nothing more than the filler that they're forced to put on during the gaps in their REAL programming: The ads.  When Supernatural dies a new show will be born.

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

Well, as I've said, I think Dean is in a good place this season. I disagree that he's not been as involved--think he's been just as involved as Sam has been all season--but do agree he's not punching things as much. Which works for me if he's not needing to punch things as much.

This doesn't explain why Dean can't hold on to a weapon, think of a plan, or hold his own in a fight anymore.  If anything being in a good place should be increasing Dean's enthusiasm for hunting not decreasing it and making him a worse hunter. 

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

This doesn't explain why Dean can't hold on to a weapon, think of a plan, or hold his own in a fight anymore.  If anything being in a good place should be increasing Dean's enthusiasm for hunting not decreasing it and making him a worse hunter. 

I don't see this happening any more than usual, myself. I have yet to see Dean as a bad hunter, but the weapons and planning fails get distributed to all the characters when needed. I don't see that it's any different this season than any other. 

[Demented Daisy]

18 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

If you want see a case study in the reduction of, and subsequent terrible departure, one of two extremely popular co-leads and half of the duo that made the show work, look no further than Sleepy Hollow. Maybe I'm suffering PSHSD, but I don't like what is happening with Dean

Taking to SPN Smackdown thread.

[Diane]

6 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

This doesn't explain why Dean can't hold on to a weapon, think of a plan, or hold his own in a fight anymore.  If anything being in a good place should be increasing Dean's enthusiasm for hunting not decreasing it and making him a worse hunter. 

Neither of the 2 can hold on to a weapon, it's always been that way.  I am glad that they are not so hotheaded this season, they are not in their 20's anymore.  They should be more settled and somewhat more calm.  It's nice to see that they can talk to each other and work stuff out with out all of the over the top drama.

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 

Well, as I've said, I think Dean is in a good place this season. I disagree that he's not been as involved--think he's been just as involved as Sam has been all season--but do agree he's not punching things as much. Which works for me if he's not needing to punch things as much.

 

I disagree that Dean is in a better place in his own heart and mind given how I think Jensen is portraying Dean but I get that if a viewer sees Dean in this light then it works. Thanks for answering!

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Neither of the 2 can hold on to a weapon, it's always been that way. 

Sam could hold onto a weapon enough to kill a Prince of Hell, then the Alpha Vamp, then the Alpha Hellhound and the Goat God. Wasn`t a problem for him. He could also hold onto his wits enough to come up with all the research in all the recent episodes as well as a solution to the Lucifer Spawn.

Dean came up with...well...nothing. He got duped and was made to be responsibility for losing the Colt twice over.  

If he isn`t shown to be researching, if he can`t think of solutions, can`t do the physical aspects of the job aka fighting and just has to be saved all the time or isn`t there at all, how is he still hunting? He literally does nothing anymore that is included in the job description. 

Car mechanics can lead civilian life. If that is all he can do at this point.

Take the episode with Eileen, if Dean wasn`t in it, would anyone have actually noticed it? Just pretend he simply wasn`t there in the scenes where he did nothing anyway and voila, same episode.

And I really don`t know why people think the pendulum will ever swing back. Like EVER for the duration of the show. Why would it? Dabb and his cadre of writers have shown me ZERO evidence that it ever will. Not this Season, not next Season and not how ever long the show lasts.

If Dean never comes up with a plan, never gets to inspire someone, never gets a kill or never gets a save anymore for the rest of the show and Sam does it all in every episode from now on if a prominent guest star doesn`t do it, I will not be surprised. Guess even then it won`t be lopsided and just growth/character progression and an "equal" partnership? 

Personally, I like competent characters, not comic relief sidekicks. Granted, characters that are pushed down my throat as super-awesome are still the worst but useless comedic sidekicks are a close second. 

Quote

I know that some would agree with him, but I think Jensen was very wrong and misleading personally. Dean's storyline for season 7 was twofold: first he was dealing with loss and betrayal 

Maybe he doesn`t consider pure emo stuff on the side a story? Because if so, I`m 100 % in agreement. "Dealing with loss" is a "story" I accept on a soap. They can get away with calling this a plot, even though they also do real plotlines. Any other show, those are disqualified for me.

Edited May 4, 2017 by Aeryn13

[gonzosgirrl]

52 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

This doesn't explain why Dean can't hold on to a weapon, think of a plan, or hold his own in a fight anymore.  If anything being in a good place should be increasing Dean's enthusiasm for hunting not decreasing it and making him a worse hunter. 

Take it for what it's worth, but this at least hints that it's not just 'us' (aka Dean!Girls) who see it. This is a tweet from yesterday.

(To clarify: my tweet, liked by Adam Rose, aka Aaron Bass)

Edited May 4, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[Idahoforspn]

51 minutes ago, Diane said:

Neither of the 2 can hold on to a weapon, it's always been that way.  I am glad that they are not so hotheaded this season, they are not in their 20's anymore.  They should be more settled and somewhat more calm.  It's nice to see that they can talk to each other and work stuff out with out all of the over the top drama.

Except Sam has managed to hold on to his weapon enough to make ALL the kills the last half of the season....along with making ALL the plans, doing almost ALL the research, and comforting all the guest stars. Ohhh and now only he can fix the colt. I have always looked forward to each new episode of SPN and almost always watched live. SPN was the only show I watched live. For the first time, I will be recording the episode as Dabb has destroyed Dean's character so much I have no desire to sit through commercials just to watch the destruction. I am a Dean girl but I don't expect him to outshine Sam. I just want balanced writing. If I can't get that I am not going to bother watching live.