Mary Winchester: This Girl is on Fire

[bearcatfan]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

Apparently there'd been some missing virgins and other shenanigans in the area.

Someone mentioned somewhere that they bet that there were no such shenanigans occurring. That was just stated so that Sam, Dean and Cas would go along. I tend to agree because if a demon really just wants to be left alone, the last thing said demon would do is mutilate cows and steal virgins to draw attention to oneself. Not sure if Mary made that up or if BMoL told her that. In any case, I'm doubtful it happened.

Edited February 23, 2017 by bearcatfan
extra words

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, bearcatfan said:

Someone mentioned somewhere that they bet that there were no such shenanigans occurring. That was just stated so that Sam, Dean and Cas would go along. I tend to agree because if a demon really just wants to be left alone, the last thing said demon would do is mutilate cows and steal virgins to draw attention to oneself. Not sure if Mary made that up or if BMoL told her that. In any case, I'm doubtful it happened.

I don't know, the deal with Crowley was that no one bother him. Or, stated another way, he can do whatever he wants and someone else had to deal with the consequences. I don't think he was too concerned about the fallout of anything he did.

However, I wouldn't put it past either Mary or the BMoL to lie about the intel. But, the point still remains that he was a demon and their job is killing demons. Mary's been on a kick to save people--that's why she signed up with Her Majesty's Secret Suckbags in the first place--so I don't think she, nor Sam and Dean, were just going to steal the gun and leave him in peace. 

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

However, I wouldn't put it past either Mary or the BMoL to lie about the intel. But, the point still remains that he was a demon and their job is killing demons. Mary's been on a kick to save people--that's why she signed up with Her Majesty's Secret Suckbags in the first place--so I don't think she, nor Sam and Dean, were just going to steal the gun and leave him in peace

Dean and Sam haven't killed every demon they've known. They may have wanted to know how he got the Colt and why. I dunno I could see Dean asking Crowley about this demon. 

[rue721]

5 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't know if it's bad instincts on Mary's part--in the past it seemed she did have fairly good instincts--as much as she's out of step with herself and just not in a good place mentally right now. I wonder if she's not just trying too hard to find a purpose for her being brought back? Like she's trying to will something good to come out of all this?

Which is interesting you mentioned Sam; watching Mary this season is very much how I felt about Sam in S4. She just keeps choosing the thing most likely to end badly, but can't seem to see that for herself. It's like watching a train from above where you can see another train coming it's way, but the engineer can't see it because it's just around the bend. You know there's just no stopping the oncoming wreck, but you keep hoping the engineer will see the other train in time anyway.

She is definitely in a bad place, and I think some of her choices are coming out of self-destructiveness and a desire to martyr/redeem herself. Also, I think that she's avoiding Sam and Dean at least partly because she's afraid to face them. It reminds me a bit of the pilot episode with the Woman in White and how she couldn't face her kids.

I think that she genuinely thinks that the BMOL are her chance at redemption. Like, if she helps them rid the world of monsters, like they're telling her she can do with their help, then that'll justify her rebirth. And I think she's hoping that, once she feels her rebirth is justified, she'll have the strength to face her sons. (Or she'll die trying to justify her rebirth/life, and then she won't have to face them anyway).

I think she's got survivor's guilt, in a way? Even though she didn't actually survive. But she was up in heaven and so happy while her family fell apart on earth. I think that's maybe what she feels bad about, and why she's having so much trouble facing them and why she was vulnerable to the BMOL's promises and rigid, ultra-structured outlook.

To me, it's very similar to how Ruby got Sam stuck in her net. And Ruby used sex to keep him complacent, too -- maybe that's what Ketch is doing with Mary? I dunno.

It's also similar to what I think Sam's mindset was in the Trials. I've been thinking of Mary as very similar to Sam in S4, but maybe she's also very similar to Sam in S8. Maybe Heaven was her "at the motel with Amelia" ;)

[DittyDotDot]

7 minutes ago, rue721 said:

She is definitely in a bad place, and I think some of her choices are coming out of self-destructiveness and a desire to martyr/redeem herself. Also, I think that she's avoiding Sam and Dean at least partly because she's afraid to face them. It reminds me a bit of the pilot episode with the Woman in White and how she couldn't face her kids.

I'm sure a lot of it is guilt, but I think it might be more. I mean, if two grown men suddenly showed up at my door knowing things about me, calling me mom and wanting to have a relationship with me like Sam and Dean have, I think I'd be pretty freaked out and feel like I needed to get away from them myself. 

37 minutes ago, rue721 said:

It's also similar to what I think Sam's mindset was in the Trials. I've been thinking of Mary as very similar to Sam in S4, but maybe she's also very similar to Sam in S8. Maybe Heaven was her "at the motel with Amelia" ;)

That's a good point. It's interesting how like Mary both Sam and Dean are, but in totally different ways. 

[SueB]

Spot on @rue721 and @DittyDotDot   Regarding Mary's whacked state of mind. 

But I'd like to have seen shit hit the fan by now.  We had a dust up in The Raid, so she's good at deflecting, but I wonder what Cas would have said to her if he had been more engaged?  Would he have seen the damage more clearly and bluntly pointed it out to the three in only the way Cas can do.  Like what he said to Sam in Reading Is Fundamental. 

[rue721]

16 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I mean, if two grown men suddenly showed up at my door knowing things about me, calling me mom and wanting to have a relationship with me like Sam and Dean have, I think I'd be pretty freaked out and feel like I needed to get away from them myself. 

True, and even though I felt awful for them when she left the bunker, I was sympathetic to Mary, too. I thought she actually handled that pretty well.

I was also ready to cut her some slack because, while I would hope that she would have the intuition to grok that these grizzled strangers are actually good, competent people who genuinely care about her, it seems like she doesn't have especially good intuition when it comes to stuff like that -- so I could understand her maybe having misplaced wariness/distrust toward them. The thing that makes it difficult for me to keep cutting her any slack when it comes to that particular issue, though, is that she has manipulated them (esp Sam) specifically by exploiting their feelings for her. When she played them in the Raid, especially, I thought that was not only a low blow, I thought that it proved that she knew that they genuinely care about her and that they are very competent -- and she was willing to trick and use them because of it.

I don't begrudge Mary for not automatically loving these relative strangers, and I don't really expect her to love them now or ever. But at the same time, I am frustrated that she apparently actually does understand that she can TRUST them, and yet she is placing her trust with their enemies instead. And I understand that she's telling herself that the BMOL aren't their enemies or her enemies (and maybe is even telling herself that they're her "salvation" in a way), but seeing as she literally helped rescue Sam from torture at their hands, I'm having a hard time seeing that as anything but willful ignorance and a lack of human empathy rather than an honest mistake on her part.

In general, I wish that she would show that she does value the relationship enough to do the difficult, painful thing and just stick around long enough to build a relationship. I mean, you don't build a family in a day, that's a lifetime commitment. There are going to be bad times, but you stick through them because you're committed.

I don't think that she's willing/ready to fully make that commitment right now, and that's OK. But I would like to know that she's at least considering doing it, or has the desire to do it (even if she doesn't have the ability right now), and hasn't just written off the possibility of being a family with Sam and Dean. Right now I'm feeling like she's giving lip service to the idea that they can be family, while meanwhile going behind their backs and doing all kinds of things that (she knows) undermine their relationship, and is truly just writing off the possibility in her mind (or trying to make the possibility impossible) while lulling them into complacency with her I Love You's and You Can Call Me Mom, etc, so that they won't get in her way.

16 hours ago, SueB said:

I wonder what Cas would have said to her if he had been more engaged?  Would he have seen the damage more clearly and bluntly pointed it out to the three in only the way Cas can do.

I'm not sure that Cas would really be able to understand what's happening? Cas and his "family" are all immortal, and the angels' concept of family is bizarre/inhuman anyway. I think that Cas's understanding of things like love are just not the same as humans'. So I think that he can probably understand pretty well what Mary is going through, as a loner and as a fish out of water, but I don't know that he can understand all that well what Sam and/or Dean are going through, as people who love someone (a parent) who they don't know and who doesn't love them back. Maybe Cas can, because he supposedly has ~daddy issues~ with Guck, but I think that that ship sailed last season when Guck came down to earth and was obsessing over his relationship with Amara and even with Lucifer, but any relationship between Guck and Cas was more or less ignored.

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, rue721 said:

The thing that makes it difficult for me to keep cutting her any slack when it comes to that particular issue, though, is that she has manipulated them (esp Sam) specifically by exploiting their feelings for her. When she played them in the Raid, especially, I thought that was not only a low blow, I thought that it proved that she knew that they genuinely care about her and that they are very competent -- and she was willing to trick and use them because of it.

TBH, I think the window has probably closed on Mary and the boys having a truly good relationship. I just don't think Sam or Dean will ever see her the same again and/or truly trust her now, nor should they. But, I wonder if Mary isn't using the BMoL to subconsciously sabotage a relationship with Sam and Dean? Like if she can get them to reject her, she can say she tried, they just didn't understand. Then she doesn't have to deal with her own guilt and/or take responsibility for anything.

I have a friend who used to do this. She didn't want to be the one to break up with someone--she didn't want to hurt someone by telling them she didn't love them--so she would get them to break up with her through some really convoluted mess she created. Thank God she finally realized it was a whole helluva lot simpler when you just owned up to your own crap.

So, I agree. It's totally frustrating watching her make one disastrous move after another and I don't cut her any slack. I think she's being an idiot, I just think I understand why she's being an idiot. Understanding doesn't make it right, though. I think the show has actually done a good job with how messy it has gotten. Family is messy, if you ask me, and that's without the demons, monsters and angels to deal with.

Edited April 9, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, rue721 said:

I'm not sure that Cas would really be able to understand what's happening? Cas and his "family" are all immortal, and the angels' concept of family is bizarre/inhuman anyway. I think that Cas's understanding of things like love are just not the same as humans'. So I think that he can probably understand pretty well what Mary is going through, as a loner and as a fish out of water, but I don't know that he can understand all that well what Sam and/or Dean are going through, as people who love someone (a parent) who they don't know and who doesn't love them back. Maybe Cas can, because he supposedly has ~daddy issues~ with Guck, but I think that that ship sailed last season when Guck came down to earth and was obsessing over his relationship with Amara and even with Lucifer, but any relationship between Guck and Cas was more or less ignored.

This might be mostly true if Cas was the same person he was in s4, but he's not.

Cas has changed (until he's given a dose of Cas-Regression-Plotonium)but in general, IMO, Cas understands humanity much more than some viewers and even the show itself gives credit. He just doesn't always know how to use that knowledge and understanding.  I was writing a long post about why I see Cas this way but it's too long to put in this Mary thread, so Ill put in the Cas thread later.

But in short there have been numerous examples of Cas showing more understanding and IMO displaying human tendencies especially in s9 when he became human. As of s12 his sarcasm was notched up along with this ability to empathize with humans.

In s12, he empathized with Mary at the beginning of the Foundry, when she said she didn't think she fit in( hello seasonal dose of Cas regression Plotonium) but more importantly he was compassionate and kind IMO, he told her she did fit in because he knew how much Dean wanted her to fit given the phone conversation between Dean and Cas, in the previous episode, wherein Dean said he just didn't know how to talk to her.  Later, before he went off to track down Lucifer and the boys offered to go with him, Cas told them they were needed at home, for Mary. IMO, he pinged that they all needed time together as a family, which shows me has quite a bit of empathy and understanding of human relations, IMO

And as of Stuck in the Middle, Cas can now state that he FEELS LOVE for humanity.  I would argue that he might actually LOVE humanity MORE than his angel family and IMO he relates to humanity more than the angels, now.  His problem is he still feels guilty. I hope that whatever is going on with him in Heaven, is that he is sorting out his conflicting emotions and loyalties. 

So, yes,  I do think he could have talked with Mary more about her situation but you know PLOTONIUM .

[rue721]

6 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

TBH, I think the window has probably closed on Mary and the boys having a truly good relationship. I just don't think Sam or Dean will ever see her the same again and/or truly trust her now, nor should they.

I agree that they'll never see her the same way again -- in fact, I think she has actively been making sure they don't. I also agree that they can't/shouldn't trust her, either -- and I think she has actively been trying to prove herself untrustworthy, as well, by pretty openly exploiting and betraying their trust. She's done that pretty shamelessly over and over by this point.

But IMO Sam and Dean can't opt out of a relationship with her -- even if, unfortunately, that "relationship" is defined by her absence or by the pain she (might still) cause them. They're connected to her in a powerful way, whether they want to be or not, whether she's there (or even alive) or not. And luckily, I think that Sam and Dean do still generally have positive feelings for her and *want* to have a relationship with her. It's not all just that their (instinctual) love for her is cornering them into it.

IMO the most salient contrast is between how they feel about having a relationship with Mary v. how Crowley feels about having a relationship with Rowena. I think Crowley loves Rowena truly despite himself and despite his better judgement, and his love for her is just a limitation (on his part) that he's got to account for and deal with at this point. TBH I feel for Crowley because it's awful to have a weakness for someone that you KNOW can and will hurt you! But what can he do. Even if he kills her, he'll still love her. Nothing can kill THAT, unfortunately.

I don't think that Sam and Dean feel the fear, hurt, etc toward Mary that Crowley presumably does toward Rowena, and Mary isn't outright evil the way that Rowena is, either. On the other hand, I think that Mary actually is actively dangerous to Sam and Dean, and that she proved that in the Raid. So while I think Mary is more misguided, messed up, naive, and self-absorbed than she is bad, I think that she actually could potentially be as dangerous for Sam and Dean as Rowena is for Crowley. In some ways, maybe more so, because at least Rowena always knows what's up, lol.

Anyway, so I don't think that Sam and Dean can have an idyllic, happy relationship with Mary. It's always going to be tortured and guarded and difficult. Mary herself is pretty tortured and guarded and difficult, apparently. On the other hand, I do think that their relationship has the potential to be a lot better (or at least a lot more stable!) than it is now -- and I think that Sam and Dean are pretty clearly game to nurture it, while Mary is uncommitted at best, and maybe trying to outright destroy it at worst.

I don't know how much Sam and Dean realize that Mary is not just looking for "space" right now, that she might be willing to really hurt them (or at least risk doing so) in order to destroy/escape the relationship.

And I don't know how much it would matter how much Sam and Dean realize that that's a risk, either. I mean, just look at Crowley -- he KNOWS to his bones that Rowena will exploit him and be as cruel to him as she can be, but he still can't really defend himself against her regardless. And he's a demon ffs. But there's only so much you can do when you actually do love a person, I think.

6 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

But, I wonder if Mary isn't using the BMoL to subconsciously sabotage a relationship with Sam and Dean? Like if she can get them to reject her, she can say she tried, they just didn't understand. Then she doesn't have to deal with her own guilt and/or take responsibility for anything.

I agree that that's what Mary is doing. But I wonder how subconscious it really is, or if she knows (or at least has an inkling) that she's doing it even as she continues doing it.

Things like using Sam and Dean and Wally as a diversion as she got the Colt, and playing on Sam's emotions to get him to come to the BMOL HQ, and hooking up with Ketch, etc, are all things that make me wonder if she's actually self-aware and *choosing* to sabotage the relationship. I mean, it's like she's TRYING to make herself irredeemable to them -- especially because after they find out about stuff like that, she basically refuses to apologize and then just checks in to see if they're finally writing her off.

It's sad, because to me, that's just someone with low self-esteem -- someone who is on the one hand trying to get dumped and on the other hand terrified of being dumped.

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, rue721 said:

But IMO Sam and Dean can't opt out of a relationship with her -- even if, unfortunately, that "relationship" is defined by her absence or by the pain she (might still) cause them.

Oh, I don't think they can opt-out either. I just meant that I don't think they can have the relationship they thought they could have with her at the beginning of the season any more. I think Dean has already realized that--probably even before she told them she was working with the Brits--but I'm not sure about Sam.

I keep thinking Sam is more understanding of Mary because he sees she's doing many of the same things he's done in the past with the self-loathing and and running away when things get too hard. But, when he was holding the Colt in his hands and realized how it was procured...that she would use them like that really seemed to affect him. We haven't seen them interact since The Raid, though, so I'm not sure if it shifted his thinking enough yet or not. I highly doubt we'll see him ever as excited to see her again as we did in First Blood, though. 

[rue721]

47 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I highly doubt we'll see him ever as excited to see her again as we did in First Blood, though. 

I'm not sure! I'm not sure if he's going to be able to help it. (If Crowley can't really help it, how can Sam help it?) Even though in Sam's head, he would have to know that he needs to be wary...he might still be too overwhelmed by his feelings for her to truly hold back or protect himself.

What I think is interesting is that in most shows, they bring up unconditional love as something that a parent feels for a child. But in SPN, it seems like they're a lot more interested in the unconditional love that a child feels for a parent. Even/especially for a bad parent.

I guess hope springs eternal (whether you like it or not!) ;)

I don't know if it's possible to make your hopes so low that they can't still be dashed. So I think we'll be seeing Mary dash Dean and Sam's hopes some more in the coming episodes, lol. I don't really know what their reaction to that is liable to be, though?!

[DittyDotDot]

38 minutes ago, rue721 said:

So I think we'll be seeing Mary dash Dean and Sam's hopes some more in the coming episodes

Totally! We've got a few more episodes left and the last two are probably doozers of revelations for Sam and Dean. 

[SueB]

a non-spoilery bit from the Spoiler thread as an intro on my S12 (to date) rewatch of Mother Mary

Quote

that turned out to be not-quite-true in Dabb's LOL!Canon S12 world. We know from Celebrating the Life of Asa Fox that Mary chose to go hunting on her own, even after Dean was born. Which also make her lack of any warning to John or protections on their home even more sketchy, but that's another post.

The on-screen explanation is that the wolf was "unfinished business", but I think there IS something deeper going on here with Mary with respect to hunting.  To completely ignore the demon's "ten year" timeline was, IMO, foolish:

Quote

YED
Oh, no, you can keep your soul, I just need permission. 
MARY
For what? 
YED
Mmm, in ten years I need to swing by your house for a little something, that's all. 
MARY
For what?! 
YED
Relax. As long as I'm not interrupted, nobody gets hurt, I promise. (beat) Or you can spend the rest of your life, desperate and alone. 

And Sam was born 10 years to the DAY after the deal.  How did she not work out THAT math?  Now, I can see her thinking that if she warded the house to prevent entry it wouldn't work because she made a 'deal'. Or worse, John would drop dead because she was going back on the deal.  But did she think he was coming over for tea? She HAD to know it was big and that a demon wouldn't forget.

The nicest option is if the Angels blanked her memory until YED showed up.  If not, maybe she thought SHE would be the one affected but "not hurt" (per his statement... although demon's lie).  Seems like she just avoided the whole issue because she didn't know HOW to prepare. And in the moment, I think, she ignored the "don't interrupt" part because a demon was standing over her child.  Still... I don't know really know how she rationalized it.

But IMO, it wasn't being a night-time hunter.  I think she had a few "one-off's" and that's it.   Also, YED had made a comment about the supernatural not bothering her. So he may have generally kept things quiet around Lawrence to ensure she didn't get herself killed on a hunt. 

So that brings me back to Mary and her relationship to hunting.  After watching all of S12, I'm not sure that Ketch is completely wrong about Mary.  Maybe part of Mary's "I just want a normal life" IS an aversion to her attraction to killing monsters. Everytime we've seen Mary kill, she's been pretty effective at it.  And her first real "crisis" was after Killing EvolBritishHenchwoman. Obviously being brought back to life, missing John and the boys is HUGE. But she didn't take killing that lightly.  In fact she told Dean flat out she was not okay.  

And Sam has teased her about liking to hunt.  And yet Mary seems disgusted by it.  However she also didn't hesitate to melt those rugaru brains.  

Bottom Line: I think Mother Mary may have a darker instinct that comes out when hunting. She's repulsed by that aspect of her personality and so she shuns the life.  She's NOT a psychopath like Ketch, but she has experienced the "thrill of the kill" and it's worrisome to her. She sees her kids in the life and is afraid they may have that issue as well. She's not wrong. Sam had real anger management issues for the first 5 years of the show and was ruthless in S10.  And it's an on-going character issue for Dean. One that, IMO, he's conquered but a battle he did have to fight.  

Edited May 2, 2017 by SueB

[Katy M]

On ‎5‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 4:00 PM, SueB said:

And Sam was born 10 years to the DAY after the deal.  How did she not work out THAT math?  Now, I can see her thinking that if she warded the house to prevent entry it wouldn't work because she made a 'deal'. Or worse, John would drop dead because she was going back on the deal.  But did she think he was coming over for tea? She HAD to know it was big and that a demon wouldn't forget.

We didn't see Mary while she was pregnant with Sam.  She may very well have been fretting the demon return counting down to the 10 year mark.  And, if so, she may not have gotten pregnant with Sam on purpose as that would be bad-timing. But, anyway, she was busy on the actual day:)  And, then, nothing happened.  The demon said he was going to drop by the house in 10 years. She may have thought/hoped that he got whatever he needed while she was in the hospital.  Dean may have even been staying with friends or John's mother.  She may have thought he was exorcised and so it didn't matter any more.  But, after a few weeks and than a couple of months went by, she may very well have grown complacent about the whole thing.

[Bessie]

Brought over from the bitch v jerk thread:

Quote

IMO Sam is actually pretty terrible at understanding and expressing how he feels about anything. I think that it's not that Sam is TRYING not to open up to Mary, but I don't think that he knows how or even understands himself well enough to know what he would open up to her about. And IMO that's an obstacle to them having a close relationship.

I think Mary might also be carrying some emotional baggage when it comes to a relationship with Sam. In her eyes, she made a deal with a demon that cost Sam dearly. That's probably tough for her to handle.

When she first came back, she questioned how she was ever going to face Sam and I expect her deal impacts on the way she interacts with him. 

Plus, I'm still not convinced that Sam even knows about it. He might, this show does way too many important moments offscreen, but I'm not certain of that. And if he doesn't, that too would make for a more distant relationship.

[Bessie]

Quote

Honestly, I think the question of whether they'll each be able to really connect with her before she's horrifically killed (again) has produced the most organic and effective dramatic tension that the show has managed to create for a long while.

Do you think they intentionally created this tension or is it viewer fear based on what the writers have done in the past?

[rue721]

3 hours ago, Bessie said:

Do you think they intentionally created this tension or is it viewer fear based on what the writers have done in the past?

Maybe it's a mixture?

There's the fear stemming from the way that all the interesting characters (often just as they become interesting, or at least sympathetic) are killed off -- I don't know how self-aware the powers that be are about that, because it seems like a counterproductive impulse to me a lot of the time. I think that they just go for the shock value, and it doesn't necessarily register with them how much that has added up over time and how that impacts viewers' ability to connect with characters on the show (aside from Sam and Dean) over the long-haul. So, really, I think that that tendency to kill off characters so recklessly adds to viewers' fears for Mary's longevity, but is likely unintentional or at least underestimated on the part of the powers that be.

And there's also the fear stemming from how, JUST as Sam and Dean were reconciling with John, the show killed John off. It seems like everything that anyone -- actors, producers, etc -- have said about it since makes me think they stand by that decision, too. So I think that they probably are at least a bit dubious about the prospect of keeping Mary around, and that's a vibe that I think comes through in the show.

I think that IS intentional in the sense that IMO the powers that be have been very explicit about comparing/contrasting Mary and her relationship to Sam and Dean and her place on the show now with John and his relationship with Sam and Dean and his place on the show in S1. The constant references to S1 are part of that IMO. I don't know if they're intentionally trying to scare us into thinking that she'll be gone soon, but they are explicit enough about the Mary/John compare and contrast that I think that they are inviting us to fear that her fate will be like John's was -- dead too early, too violently, leaving too much unfinished business behind, and in a kind of misguided sacrifice.

And I think that there is also some VERY intentionally-created dramatic tension in keeping Sam and Dean away from Mary for so much of the season. I think they know that we WANT to see her relationships with them and just generally have a lot that we want to understand about her and about her relationships, history, perspective, etc...and I think they're purposefully not giving us what we want because they think that is a better writing/dramatic choice. I think it actually IS a good choice in terms of creating tension, and in terms of getting us into Sam and Dean's perspectives and giving them a compelling b-plot for the duration of the season, and I also think that it's a good choice in the that the slow burn kind of pace they've got going is pretty true to life. So while on the one hand, it's kind of tough to sweat it out, I actually think it's a smart move by TPTB. YMMV.

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

For what it's worth, I'm not someone who is prone to keeping in touch with people--even my mother--so I just don't think it's particularly strange that Sam doesn't call Mary nor do I see it as any sort of bias on the show's part. My mom will sometimes call me and irritably ask me if I'm still alive because I haven't called her for a few weeks. It's not that I don't care, it's just that I lose track of time quite easily and don't realize it's been weeks since I let her know I was still up and kicking. And, quite frankly, I'm not one for just calling someone to chit chat. So, I think Sam's just not a chit-chatter either whereas Dean is.

I don't think it's strange or a sign of favoritism (either way), but IMO the way Sam is reacting to having Mary around is still pretty interesting in terms of what it says about who he is as a character. IMO it's probably not just that he's forgetting or not into chit-chat, because he asks Dean about her a lot, and he responds to her overtures very readily. He seems pretty preoccupied with her to me, TBH.

I think that Sam is overall very nervous about asking anything of Mary, whereas Dean is willing/able to be more demanding. For the most part, Sam only seems to be willing to reach out to Mary when he thinks he has something (specific) to offer her, whereas Dean is willing to reach out to her even if it's just because HE wants to (like with his initial phone call to her in T&T&TB). I think that Sam is probably so nervous about asking anything of her because he's afraid she'll say no or reject him, and Dean is more comfortable with that possibility (or just thinks it's too unlikely to worry about).

In any case, I think that issue is also why Sam's relationship with Mary has more-or-less stalled out, whereas Dean's is progressing.

On the one hand, I think that in order for Sam's relationship with her to get better, he will have to grow a pair and start expressing himself and asserting himself, too. Because Mary is not going to take the lead to keep their relationship from withering on the vine, clearly.

But on the other hand, I really feel for Sam that he hasn't (yet) been able to do that. What if she DOES reject him or use him or even just cut him down? That really hurts coming from your mother, even as an adult. If that baseline trust that she won't hurt him isn't there, then it's got to be really difficult to put himself out there in a real way. And I can understand if that baseline trust isn't there for Sam. Regardless of whether it's there for Dean.

Really, I can think of a lot of reasons why Sam might be more nervous about opening up to Mary or asserting himself with her, or even just initiating contact with her. But they're all kind of through the prism of my own experience, so who knows whether they really apply. I mean, for context, the character on this show that I identify with (a little too) strongly when it comes to dealing with his mother is actually Crowley. Which is terrible, because Rowena is a monster and my mother is not at all! But y'know.

Edited May 6, 2017 by rue721

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, rue721 said:

For the most part, Sam only seems to be willing to reach out to Mary when he thinks he has something (specific) to offer her, whereas Dean is willing to reach out to her even if it's just because HE wants to (like with his initial phone call to her in T&T&TB).

That's what I mean about chit-chat versus non chit-chat. I don't generally call anyone unless I have something specific to say to them--like making plans or something like that. I don't do it just to "check-in" like Dean seems to be doing. 

TBH, I just don't think Mary's occupying that much of Sam's thoughts right now. He's been so focused on Kelly and finding another solution, like he promised her he would, I don't think he's really been thinking of much else. But, I think that's something he and Mary have in common. They both tend to get wrapped up in something as a way to avoid dealing with something more personal.

So, yeah, there's probably a lot of reasons why Sam isn't calling Mary.

Edited May 7, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[auntvi]

2 hours ago, rue721 said:

I think that Sam is overall very nervous about asking anything of Mary, whereas Dean is willing/able to be more demanding.

Yes, for all the reasons you discussed. Now I'm so sad for Sam. If she goes away (leaves, or dies, or whatever) he'll have another big hole in his heart/soul, and where that leads can't be good.

[rue721]

On 5/6/2017 at 8:45 PM, DittyDotDot said:

That's what I mean about chit-chat versus non chit-chat. I don't generally call anyone unless I have something specific to say to them--like making plans or something like that. I don't do it just to "check-in" like Dean seems to be doing. 

TBH, I just don't think Mary's occupying that much of Sam's thoughts right now. He's been so focused on Kelly and finding another solution, like he promised her he would, I don't think he's really been thinking of much else. But, I think that's something he and Mary have in common. They both tend to get wrapped up in something as a way to avoid dealing with something more personal.

So, yeah, there's probably a lot of reasons why Sam isn't calling Mary.

I was talking about Sam contacting Mary in order to give her things (help, info, the journal, etc), in contrast to Dean, who will also contact her to ask her for things (off the top of my head, I'm thinking of the request to call her mom).

I can't see it coming into play whether either likes to chitchat, TBH, because Mary herself doesn't seem to like or want chitchat. She's not a hugger, likes her space, etc.

FWIW I didn't think that Dean's call in T&T&TB was a check-in, either. Seemed to me that he was saying he was upset and needed a shoulder -- i.e., was requesting that Mary be there for him, help him out. And then she called back and WAS there for him, more or less.

I think that was a real sign their relationship is progressing...but it doesn't seem like her relationship with Sam is progressing the same way. So I'll be interested to see the three of them interacting again, and seeing what comes of that. IMO that was probably a purposeful setup on the part of the show, so I'm hopeful we'll see some payoff to it.

Anyway, I can't agree that Mary is "out of sight, out of mind" for Sam right now. Seems to me that he mentions her a lot, is very responsive to her, and actually just overall doesn't seem as obsessed with the Lucifer Family Drama as I would expect, given his history with Lucifer and tendency to hyper focus. I do think that he seems preoccupied by Mary. But that's all a matter of perception. To each her own! :)

[DittyDotDot]

8 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I can't see it coming into play whether either likes to chitchat, TBH, because Mary herself doesn't seem to like or want chitchat. She's not a hugger, likes her space, etc.

It's not about Mary. I'm saying I think Dean is the kind of person to call just to see how someone's day is or because he needs to talk or when he's just thinking of someone. Sam isn't, IMO. 

I just don't think it has anything to do with Sam and Mary not being in a good place, just that Sam isn't one to keep in touch like Dean is. I think it's hard for Sam to maintain those relationships when those people aren't right in front of him anymore. He seems to be more of an out of sight, out of mind sort of guy to me. It's probably something he learned to do when he cut ties with Dean and John while he was in college?

So it makes perfect character-sense to me he's not reaching out to Mary since she has made sure to be out of his--and Dean's--sight.

[shang yiet]

No, for me it's a little black and white to say Dean is the one always reaching out and never Sam. Early in season one, Dean was the one teasing Sam about keeping in touch with his college friends. So I can't believe his own mother is now out of sight, out of mind because it does defeat the purpose of bringing Mary back (for the angst).

The problem for me is the writing (or lack of). It will get irritating if we get scene after scene of Dean reaching out and not Sam. If Sam is supposed to be more introvert or cautious or standoffish or nervous with Mary, they have to show that and explain why he is taking that stance and the effect of his stance on Mary. They can make a little theme about that to hang a story on.

Other shows have introverted reserved heroes but they get a lot of the emotional scenes because writers of those shows make very sure to focus on what the hero is thinking or feeling.

Edited May 9, 2017 by shang yiet

[DittyDotDot]

3 hours ago, shang yiet said:

No, for me it's a little black and white to say Dean is the one always reaching out and never Sam. Early in season one, Dean was the one teasing Sam about keeping in touch with his college friends.

That was over 10 years ago. We haven't seen Sam reach out or maintain any relationship that wasn't right in front of him since S1. I think the farther away Sam gets from people, the more they became a part of his past. IMO, it's the same with Mary. I personally don't think Sam is standoffish or reserved at all with Mary, he's just not really involved with her and has other things going on in his life, so she's not taking up a great deal of his thoughts. TBH, I think he just keeps forgetting Mary is alive.

This whole conversation had me thinking of how my siblings and I all reacted differently to my parents splitting up. When my parents divorced, us kids stayed with my mom and my dad took off to parts unknown only to play dad occasionally when it was convenient for him. My brother had the hardest time with my parents separation. He was the oldest and felt my father's absence most. As a result he has always gone to the ends of the earth trying to stay in touch with my dad and be a part of his life even though my dad doesn't put in a fraction of the effort my brother does. My sisters noticed his absence but were somewhat indifferent to it. They'll visit him when they stay with my brother, but they don't reach out to him otherwise. I was the youngest and never really got used to having him around so his absence didn't phase me much at all. I think of him as a stranger and can't remember the last time I talked with him. I'm not actively avoiding him--although I do think he's an ass--but I just have my own life and I mostly just forget he even exists.

I don't know if the show had done this purposely or not, but for me it feels totally organic and natural to the characters. If Mary had stuck around and Sam had gotten a chance to know her and get used to her presence, I think Sam would be noticing her absence more. I think it's different for Dean because he can't let go of his memories of what used to be. He still wants that relationship he believes he once had with her, but Sam never really had one to begin with.

Edited May 9, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[SueB]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

That was over 10 years ago. We haven't seen Sam reach out or maintain any relationship that wasn't right in front of him since S1. 

Jodi, Charlie, Eileen.  All three have had conversations indicating they are/were keeping in touch with Sam or that Sam feels comfortable just calling them up. 

[Katy M]

Here are my feelings on the matter, though I'm sure nobody cares:)

Back in Children Shouldn't Play with Dead things when Sam visited Mary's grave and buried John's dog tags in the dirt, he said "I love you, Mom."  My first thought was "no, you don't.  You don't know her.  You love the idea of her and missed having a mom."  Now, I'm not saying that as an insult to Sam, it's natural.  So, yes, he met her ghost for like 5 seconds and hung out with young Mary for one evening back in The Song remains the Same.  But, she's just an idea to him.

Now Dean has a few memories from his young life, but they probably all got romanticized by just remembering the best and through John, and he hung out with young Mary a bit more, but she's pretty much idea to him, too, IMO. 

So, here is what I think the main difference is. Dean needs that idea more than Sam does.  Dean has always been a parental figure, in a way, to Sam.  And Dean protected Sam from the bigger brunt of John's alcoholism and anger, and drill sargeantiness.  So, Dean, needs a mother more than Sam does.  Or thinks he does.  Or wants one. 

Just my crazy opinion on the matter.

[Demented Daisy]

3 minutes ago, SueB said:

Jodi, Charlie, Eileen.  All three have had conversations indicating they are/were keeping in touch with Sam or that Sam feels comfortable just calling them up. 

But I think Ditty's point (sorry for speaking for you) is that we don't see Sam calling people for a chat -- not like we see Dean calling people he cares about.

Another instance of how they should show, not tell.

[SueB]

29 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

But I think Ditty's point (sorry for speaking for you) is that we don't see Sam calling people for a chat -- not like we see Dean calling people he cares about.

Another instance of how they should show, not tell.

Ah... I see. Thanks for the clarification. 

[DittyDotDot]

Moving my more Sam specific thoughts to the Sam thread...

2 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Dean, needs a mother more than Sam does.  Or thinks he does.  Or wants one. 

This is basically what I've been trying to express. Dean, for whatever reason, thinks he needs that relationship with Mary. While I'm sure Sam isn't opposed to it, I don't think he feels like he needs it like Dean does. 

[shang yiet]

Quote

Dean has always been a parental figure, in a way, to Sam.  And Dean protected Sam from the bigger brunt of John's alcoholism and anger, and drill sargeantiness.  So, Dean, needs a mother more than Sam does.  Or thinks he does.  Or wants one. 

I disagree. John's parental style had its full impact on Sam judging from young Sam's difficult and volatile relationship with John. And Sam needs his mother a lot. She left the biggest hole in his life which was not and could not be filled with anyone else including Dean. He (Sam) was full of wonder at her reincarnation. When an idea comes to life, if it doesn't knock your socks off, then I don't know what will.

I do agree Mary was or is mostly an idea to both her sons. Sam has to build up a relationship from scratch and this Mary is not the maternal figure of his fantasy. How he feels about this, I don't know.

Anyway, sorry for harping on this issue. I just feel if you're a writer and you want to bring back Mary to maximise the angst, drama and character exploration, then you need to include the Sam angle too and make sure he too has a reaction to her.

[DittyDotDot]

32 minutes ago, shang yiet said:

Anyway, sorry for harping on this issue. I just feel if you're a writer and you want to bring back Mary to maximise the angst, drama and character exploration, then you need to include the Sam angle too and make sure he too has a reaction to her.

Well, maybe they shouldn't bring a character back simply to maximize angst in the first place? ;)

[Demented Daisy]

Now, Ditty, that is entirely too logical.  You know better than that.  ;-)

[rue721]

18 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

It's not about Mary. I'm saying I think Dean is the kind of person to call just to see how someone's day is or because he needs to talk or when he's just thinking of someone. Sam isn't, IMO.

How can it not be about Mary when Mary is the one who they would each be trying to keep in touch with in this scenario, though? (I'll take Sam-specific stuff to the Sam thread as well).

I guess I'm just not getting it. If Mary isn't someone who wants check-ins, chitchat, whatever, then how is it even an option for either one of them to have check-ins and chitchat, etc, with her? Who cares what either of them want if she's not down for that regardless? And I think she's been pretty explicit about not being OK with it, seeing as she told them flat out she wants space, etc.

Honestly, I have not been seeing Dean checking in with her, either. Maybe it's his natural tendency to want to keep tabs on people -- although IMO we haven't seen him doing that onscreen, and in the past, he was always the one who was like, we've gotta live like drifters, no ties, etc etc etc (and I think that's why he's so close with his family, too). But in any case, IMO Dean is pretty willing to initiate contact with Mary, but when he does, he asks her for specific stuff or talks to her about specific stuff (like he's upset and wants XYZ kind of interaction from her, in T&T&TB). I don't think Dean's interactions are less specific or goal-oriented than Sam's, I just think they're less one-sided.

The closest thing to chitchat and checking in that Mary has been involved with, IMO, was when Dean and Mary were playing Words with Friends. And YMMV but when Sam found out about that, I thought he actually did seem jealous and like he felt excluded.

But also, IMO it's actually a running theme of the show that they each feel like they have to isolate themselves (for various reasons), and seem to get a tinge of jealousy or "what might have been" or whatever whenever one of them breaks that isolation. Like Dean connecting with Mary -- or even way back in the day with Dean telling Cassie about "the family business"...and of course, the infamous, Sam-goes-to-college lol.

Edited May 10, 2017 by rue721

[DittyDotDot]

21 minutes ago, rue721 said:

How can it not be about Mary when Mary is the one who they would each be trying to keep in touch with in this scenario, though?

Because I was speaking to Sam's character in general and how he maintains his relationships, not just with Mary, but everyone.

[DittyDotDot]

36 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I guess I'm just not getting it. If Mary isn't someone who wants check-ins, chitchat, whatever, then how is it even an option for either one of them to have check-ins and chitchat, etc, with her? Who cares what either of them want if she's not down for that regardless? And I think she's been pretty explicit about not being OK with it, seeing as she told them flat out she wants space, etc.

I think Mary does want contact with them, just not direct contact. I think she wants to know they're okay and I think she doesn't want to completely cut ties, it's just that she doesn't know how to be when she's around them. I think she's fine with the texting and messaging, though.

Regardless, Dean has been checking in with her on occasion. He'd left a couple voice mails and sent her some emails recently. At the beginning of the season he was texting her regularly.

That was the complaint and why the conversation was started in the first place--Dean has been shown to check in with Mary while we've seen hardly any effort on Sam's part. People don't understand why Sam hasn't been calling her like Dean has. I've been arguing that I think it makes sense to Sam's character that's he's not calling Mary because I don't think he's someone who does that anymore. If they're out of sight, he seems to move on, IMO.

Edited May 10, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

 I think Sam detaches himself which is why IMO he's not in more constant contact with Mary.

[Idahoforspn]

42 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think Mary does want contact with them, just not direct contact. I think she wants to know they're okay and I think she doesn't want to completely cut ties, it's just that she doesn't know how to be when she's around them. I think she's fine with the texting and messaging, though.

Regardless, Dean has been checking in with her on occasion. He'd left a couple voice mails and sent her some emails recently. At the beginning of the season he was texting her regularly.

That was the complaint and why the conversation was started in the first place--Dean has been shown to check in with Mary while we've seen hardly any effort on Sam's part. People don't understand why Sam hasn't been calling her like Dean has. I've been arguing that I think it makes sense to Sam's character that's he's not calling Mary because I don't think he's someone who does that anymore. If they're out of sight, he seems to move on, IMO.

Actually I believe the very first posts were about why Mary always contacted Dean instead of Sam and it morphed into why doesn't Sam contact Mary. Maybe I have my threads mixed up though...very possible.

[rue721]

7 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

That was the complaint and why the conversation was started in the first place--Dean has been shown to check in with Mary while we've seen hardly any effort on Sam's part. People don't understand why Sam hasn't been calling her like Dean has. I've been arguing that I think it makes sense to Sam's character that's he's not calling Mary because I don't think he's someone who does that anymore. If they're out of sight, he seems to move on, IMO.

We are talking past each other again. Or maybe I have not been keeping up properly with whatever other conversation(s) about this that have been going on on the board and am talking about different things than other people.

Because I know you're addressing me right now, but actually, I disagree that Dean has been shown to check in (and have said why), I disagree that we have seen hardly any effort on Sam's part (and have said why), I understand why Sam has not been in as frequent contact with Mary (and have given my theories on this), and I think it's in-character -- but for different reasons than you do (which I have also talked about at length).

Not trying to rehash, we can agree to disagree. I just feel like I need to say something because your summary is completely not my understanding of what is being discussed or at least the "sides" in the discussion, so I feel like I'm being misunderstood. Wish I could be more eloquent and actually be understood instead of just sticking a flag up saying "no, that's not what I think," but am honestly too tired to explain myself better at the moment. Hopefully tomorrow.

37 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Because I was speaking to Sam's character in general and how he maintains his relationships, not just with Mary, but everyone.

OK and that's an interesting discussion, which is hopefully/probably ongoing in Sam's thread -- but what does it even matter in terms of his relationship with Mary, seeing as whether or not Sam (or Dean or anybody) is interested in having a high-contact, casual, close relationship with her or not, it's not going to happen since she herself apparently doesn't do relationships like that? Sam could be Mr Social Butterfly and he still would be having a pretty low-contact, formal, distant relationship with Mary, because that's how MARY does things (or at least does them now) IMO.

IMO it's interesting in terms of who Mary is as a character and what they (and viewers) can expect from her in the future. I don't think her demeanor is coming from her discombobulation at suddenly being in the "future" and having her whole family essentially get ripped away from her and all that, at this point. I think this might just be who she is. No judgement, that just interests me. I can definitely see her reserve being trying for her sons in the long term. Sam especially *because* he's not great at fostering his relationships with people and is pretty reserved within the "inner circle" himself.

In any case, I actually think it's sweet how both these men are apparently just going for as open and honest relationships with her as they each are (respectively) capable of having, because I would have been a lot more focused on just "getting her done" and just making her like me. Makes me rethink about my approach to dating TBH. ;)

[Idahoforspn]

1 minute ago, rue721 said:

We are talking past each other again. Or maybe I have not been keeping up properly with whatever other conversation(s) about this that have been going on on the board and am talking about different things than other people.

Because I know you're addressing me right now, but actually, I disagree that Dean has been shown to check in (and have said why), I disagree that we have seen hardly any effort on Sam's part (and have said why), I understand why Sam has not been in as frequent contact with Mary (and have given my theories on this), and I think it's in-character -- but for different reasons than you do (which I have also talked about at length).

Not trying to rehash, we can agree to disagree. I just feel like I need to say something because your summary is completely not my understanding of what is being discussed or at least the "sides" in the discussion, so I feel like I'm being misunderstood. Wish I could be more eloquent and actually be understood instead of just sticking a flag up saying "no, that's not what I think," but am honestly too tired to explain myself better at the moment. Hopefully tomorrow.

OK and that's an interesting discussion, which is hopefully/probably ongoing in Sam's thread -- but what does it even matter in terms of his relationship with Mary, seeing as whether or not Sam (or Dean or anybody) is interested in having a high-contact, casual, close relationship with her or not, it's not going to happen since she herself apparently doesn't do relationships like that? Sam could be Mr Social Butterfly and he still would be having a pretty low-contact, formal, distant relationship with Mary, because that's how MARY does things (or at least does them now) IMO.

IMO it's interesting in terms of who Mary is as a character and what they (and viewers) can expect from her in the future. I don't think her demeanor is coming from her discombobulation at suddenly being in the "future" and having her whole family essentially get ripped away from her and all that, at this point. I think this might just be who she is. No judgement, that just interests me. I can definitely see her reserve being trying for her sons in the long term. Sam especially *because* he's not great at fostering his relationships with people and is pretty reserved within the "inner circle" himself.

In any case, I actually think it's sweet how both these men are apparently just going for as open and honest relationships with her as they each are (respectively) capable of having, because I would have been a lot more focused on just "getting her done" and just making her like me. Makes me rethink about my approach to dating TBH. ;)

Sorry, like I said, I could easily be mixing stuff up. Not a big deal anyway. Sorry again.

[rue721]

Just now, Idahoforspn said:

Sorry, like I said, I could easily be mixing stuff up. Not a big deal anyway. Sorry again.

No need to apologize.

I actually remember it like you do -- a convo about Mary's choice to contact only Dean in T&T&TB that somehow became about how often Sam was initiating contact with her.

[Idahoforspn]

2 minutes ago, rue721 said:

No need to apologize.

I actually remember it like you do -- a convo about Mary's choice to contact only Dean in T&T&TB that somehow became about how often Sam was initiating contact with her.

?

[DittyDotDot]

6 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I actually remember it like you do -- a convo about Mary's choice to contact only Dean in T&T&TB that somehow became about how often Sam was initiating contact with her.

I realize it's not the conversation that started in the episode thread that got moved to the Bitch/Jerk thread and then moved here, but you quoted me and brought the discussion over here, I've just been responding your questions to me. Sorry if you didn't actually want a response... .

24 minutes ago, rue721 said:

OK and that's an interesting discussion, which is hopefully/probably ongoing in Sam's thread -- but what does it even matter in terms of his relationship with Mary, seeing as whether or not Sam (or Dean or anybody) is interested in having a high-contact, casual, close relationship with her or not, it's not going to happen since she herself apparently doesn't do relationships like that?

Sam is half of the relationship and how he acts as a character would have a bearing on how he and Mary are interacting. Relationships are two-way streets. Both parties contribute to whether they are successful or not.

[rue721]

7 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Sorry if you didn't actually want a response...

Come on

ETA:  If you have a problem with me, then please take it to PM so that other people aren't bothered. If you do not have a problem with me, then please assume good faith on my part, and I will continue to assume it on yours.

Edited May 10, 2017 by rue721

[DittyDotDot]

8 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Come on

ETA:  If you have a problem with me, then please take it to PM so that other people aren't bothered. If you do not have a problem with me, then please assume good faith on my part, and I will continue to assume it on yours.

Whoa, I do NOT have a problem with you. I would not engage you if I did.

Edited May 10, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[SueB]

Looking at my iTunes, I found this:

 

It was only available with a Season Pass (apparently).  I researched it because I didn't watch it when came out (28 Oct 16).  At first you could pay $3.99 and get it on YouTube (I think), later I found it uploaded. 

Anyway, it's pretty in-depth.

I realize there are those who reject anything that is not on the broadcast.  That's your prerogative.  But if you are interested in discussing this and it's implications to the show, I'll be over in the DVD and merchandise thread discussing this.   

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

Looking at my iTunes, I found this:

 

It was only available with a Season Pass (apparently).  I researched it because I didn't watch it when came out (28 Oct 16).  At first you could pay $3.99 and get it on YouTube (I think), later I found it uploaded. 

Anyway, it's pretty in-depth.

I realize there are those who reject anything that is not on the broadcast.  That's your prerogative.  But if you are interested in discussing this and it's implications to the show, I'll be over in the DVD and merchandise thread discussing this.   

What this says to me is that they had great ideas and good intentions with the character, but (for me) the writing didn't support it. Just a few lines added here and there would have made her choices seem so much less selfish than they did. That, and her (again, for me) unforgivable comment to Dean about 'not being a child' ruined the character for me. He wasn't asking her to bake them cookies or tuck them in at night. I've said it repeatedly throughout the season and I'll say it again: they didn't make her a badass woman, they just made her a female John Winchester. That, and her subsequent lies and manipulations just makes me want her to die in a fire. Again.

[Wayward Son]

I can generally sympathise with Mary, although I do find her behaviour frustrating at times. I can understand her wishing to step back from the brothers so she can wrap her head around things. From her perspective, in the blink of an eye, she has went from a happily married mother of a four year old and new born to the widowed mother of two grown men in their mid thirties. That would be naturally disconcerting for anyone, and I can see why she'd return to the hunting life she knew growing up. 

I can also accept the lies and the manipulation for the simple fact, let's be honest, when have Sam and Dean not done the exact thing when they feel it is for the greater good? And from Mary's perspective it is the greater good. She has been working to try and bring about a world where there are no more monsters to harm innocent people.

The only action of hers I find truly disgusting was her placing the life of the brothers in danger by refusing to hand over the colt to Ramel during Stuck in the Middle (With You). I don't count the dying Cas in this because, as far as I can recall, Ramiel never made an offer to help him. As far as Mary knew Cas was going to die regardless of whether she handed it over or not.

[gonzosgirrl]

I would really like to know if Mary is supposed to be aware of all that Dean & Sam have been through in their lives.  For me, it would go a long way in justifying (or not) her characterization thus far.

Does she know Dean sold his soul for Sam? Does she know they've both been tortured in Hell? Does she know Dean became a demon? That Sam lost his soul? All in pursuit of saving the world (or each other). Does she know what they went through as children, raised, for all intents and purposes, as vagabonds by a father obsessed with vengeance? One who put that 'greater good' above all else, including his children? Her lack of empathy towards Dean's response to 'you're not a child'  (I never was), makes me wonder. If she doesn't know their history, then maybe I could understand it better. If she does, and could still say that, then she's a POS. I don't care what she's going through, throwing that in his face was cruel.

This is where they have failed the character, IMO. None of these conversations or revelations have taken place on screen, or even been mentioned. That is what constitutes canon for me, regardless of Dabb & Company's intentions. I don't know if it's entirely the writing, or if maybe key scenes were edited out, or if it's Sam Smith's delivery - I suspect a combination of all three - but they have ruined Mary Winchester for me.

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Does she know Dean sold his soul for Sam? Does she know they've both been tortured in Hell? Does she know Dean became a demon? That Sam lost his soul? All in pursuit of saving the world (or each other). Does she know what they went through as children, raised, for all intents and purposes, as vagabonds by a father obsessed with vengeance? One who put that 'greater good' above all else, including his children? Her lack of empathy towards Dean's response to 'you're not a child'  (I never was), makes me wonder. If she doesn't know their history, then maybe I could understand it better. If she does, and could still say that, then she's a POS. I don't care what she's going through, throwing that in his face was cruel.

These are the questions I've been asking since the premiere. 

Where the showrunners have failed IMO, is thinking that making Mary a 'badass' with 'flaws' that is all they needed to do to try and sell her to the audience. The only thing they have done for this viewer,  is make her unlikeable, unsympathetic but worse, uninteresting. Mary is a boring, walking cliche of what Singer, Dabb, Berens and fucking Buckner think is a  "badass chick".   I don't care if she can punch Ketch in the face with brass knuckles. I don't care that she knows how to kill monsters because this was already known given the young Mary we met in the past.

Not showing her discovering the boys' lives was IMO the biggest failing. There was a scene with Mary sitting in the diner in Lawrence but that doesn't tell us much of anything IMO. Sure, they can go with "Leave it to the audience imagination" but IMO that is woefully bad storytelling and dramatically unsatisfying for something SO HUGE as Mary's resurrection. They needed to show us how much she learned from John's journal about how he raised the boys.  Did she visit Missouri? Even if we couldn't get a scene with her and Missouri, I would accept Mary telling the boys that she went to Lawrence to talk to Missouri and see the old house. Give them a 3 minute scene. I want to see their reaction to Mary's reaction

Since we didn't get that, there is no way of knowing what she knows or doesn't know. Even if they were trying to make some kind of gotcha reveal of some character by the end of the season, IMO that would not be satisfying, because they should have planted more seeds to those reveals. They could have peppered in those moments throughout the season. The problem is there isn't even any shorthand, good or bad form, that implies what she knows about them.  For instance, how lovely would it have been to have a scene with Mary and Dean talking about how Dean cooked random things for Sam because Mary and John weren't around to do it. YES I WANT SPECIFICITY about this stuff. 

[Aeryn13]

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Where the showrunners have failed IMO, is thinking that making Mary a 'badass' with 'flaws' that is all they needed to do to try and sell her to the audience. The only thing they have done for this viewer,  is make her unlikeable, unsympathetic but worse, uninteresting. Mary is a boring, walking cliche of what Singer, Dabb, Berens and fucking Buckner think is a  "badass chick".   I don't care if she can punch Ketch in the face with brass knuckles. I don't care that she knows how to kill monsters because this was already known given the young Mary we met in the past.

I get that the actress was excited about playing something different than Mommy-in-the-nightgown but run screaming from the mother facet of the character was too far in the opposite direction IMO. The younger version wasn`t a "mommy" or defined by her children and we saw her be badass but she also appeared warm and loving. This new Mary is, like you said, just mostly the "badass hunter chick" cliché.

And really, it wasn`t like she didn`t get interested in other things. She waxed poetic about John, she cared enough to seek out the funeral of a kid she once saved, she got in with the BMOL, she even had some bonding moments with Cas, heck, she jumped in bed with Ketch so it wasn`t like the character was totally disengaged from everything. But she never made even the slightest move to learn anything about her son`s lives.

If they had played it like she just shied away from it out of shame or guilt or whatnot and then caved, okay. But it came across more like "whatthefuckever, let me tell you about myself and what I want". Way too self-involved for my taste. On top of that she came across as manipulative and cold.

The characters appears to have (or at least show) no empathy so frankly she doesn`t inspire any in me. 

And that interview a while back with Sam Smith, wow, not endearing in the least. I think she likes the shinyness of "badass hunter" so much, it is enough for her. Not for me, though. When she said "you`ll like Mary again" at some Convention, I thought to myself: don`t count on it.

I fully expected that resurrecting the character would be awkward. Someone who has been dead for so long and returns to a life and world and people they don`t know can never not be. I also never expected some sweet mother, nurturing figure. But I admit I didn`t expect them to make the character so damn unlikeable. However, they did and for me the damage is done. And that is due to both the writing and the acting in my eyes. Whatever their plans were, the execution just killed it IMO.     

Edited May 11, 2017 by Aeryn13