S06.E03: American Bitch

[Eucrid]

None of that has anything to do with your other post. The men in the show don't actually watch the show.

[SlackerInc]

Fran was a controlling, passive-aggressive asshole.

[CofCinci]

3 hours ago, SlackerInc said:

Fran was a controlling, passive-aggressive asshole.

Yeah, he was so controlling when he chided Hannah for showing her vagina to their boss/school principal.

[27bored]

On 3/7/2017 at 3:14 PM, Matias130 said:

Hannah keeps trying to drive the point home that she is someone who has been traumatized by some kind of sexual harrassment and/or assault. Lena Dunham has also accused someone from college of sexually assaulting her. I just get the feeling that by her constantly reminding us that she has been sexually harassed, it somehow makes her seem like she is an attractive woman in some way. Also, all of the men that she has had sex or or rleationships with on the show have been "conventionally" attractive, far more than her. SSomething about that just makes me scratch my head

I've often thought this to some extent. Lena Dunham, and Hannah as written at times, has what I would call a Sexual Being Complex. Not totally unlike a Victim Complex, but there is a slight compulsion to be seen as sexual. And the funny thing is it's always chicks who, let's be honest, are pretty plain-looking. It's always chicks like Lena Dunham, Amy Schumer, Sandra Fluke...who want to act like they're having so much sex, and it's like, give me a break. It's not that they're ugly, but there's a low-key "point to be made" quality that makes them seem a little desperate for sexual validation.

The thing about this episode and Hannah sort of identifying with Chuck's accusers is, you don't know them, so it's not wise to just jump to their defense. Being a skeptic isn't all that endearing, but neither is being a sucker. Situations are complicated, as she kind of realized after her encounter with Chuck.

[Nordly Beaumont]

10 hours ago, Eucrid said:

Also, all of the men that she has had sex or or rleationships with on the show have been "conventionally" attractive, far more than her.

Adam Driver has never struck me as "conventionally attractive" - Adam and Hannah were a pretty even match to me. Both attractive in a different type of way.

[Eucrid]

8 hours ago, 27bored said:

It's always chicks like Lena Dunham, Amy Schumer, Sandra Fluke...who want to act like they're having so much sex, and it's like, give me a break.

No they just talk or write about having some sex. Apparently there are certain people who don't approve of women talking about sex.

[SlackerInc]

1 hour ago, Eucrid said:

No they just talk or write about having some sex. Apparently there are certain people who don't approve of women talking about sex.

Unless they are "hot", and they talk about it in a come-hither style, for the benefit of the male gaze.

[Lily247]

None of that has anything to do with your other post. The men in the show don't actually watch the show.

I was more reacting to your post stating Hannah as being cute, funny, slightly annoying at times and brave with her sexuality. I highly disagree with her having these traits as I consider her to be more on the mentally ill side, not to mention the completely hypocritical nature of her forcing a BJ on a man driving a vehicle despite seeing his reluctance, which totally throws off her point in this episode about sexual assault.

[27bored]

18 hours ago, Eucrid said:

No they just talk or write about having some sex. Apparently there are certain people who don't approve of women talking about sex.

That's not my point. There's a slight compulsion by some women to be seen as sexual that goes beyond just talking about it as a part of life. Like, the point isn't even about sex, it's about provoking a reaction to justify their compulsion. I think Lena gets a lot of undue flack -- though she courts it at times -- but it's unfair to act like people who may find her tasteless and desperate are like Reverend Moore trying to ban dancing and rock music. 

Edited March 10, 2017 by 27bored

[guilfoyleatpp]

52 minutes ago, 27bored said:

That's not my point. There's a slight compulsion by some women to be seen as sexual that goes beyond just talking about it as a part of life. Like, the point isn't even about sex, it's about provoking a reaction to justify their compulsion. I think Lena gets a lot of undue flack -- though she courts it at times -- but it's unfair to act like people who may find her tasteless and desperate are like Reverend Moore trying to ban dancing and rock music. 

To carry your point a bit further, what do we call men who talk compulsively about sex to provoke a reaction? I can think of a few I've known in my lifetime and I'm not able to pinpoint a common denominator. 

[SlackerInc]

50 minutes ago, 27bored said:

I think Lena gets a lot of undue flack -- though she courts it at times -- but it's unfair to act like people who may find her tasteless and desperate are like Reverend Moore trying to ban dancing and rock music. 

It's nothing that simplistic.  It's more that until recently, they could safely watch TV without having to look at women who are not at least "an 8" (whereas in certain quarters, Dunham has noted, her body would be seen as "probably a two") being sexual.  Such women, if they were present at all, were platonic best friends, cripplingly shy wallflowers, comic relief, or the objects of scorn and ridicule (written that way, I mean).  Upsetting this cultural norm has been hard for many people to accept.

[27bored]

6 hours ago, guilfoyleatpp said:

To carry your point a bit further, what do we call men who talk compulsively about sex to provoke a reaction? I can think of a few I've known in my lifetime and I'm not able to pinpoint a common denominator. 

I don't think there's a particular gendered epithet for men like that, but then again, men don't usually get famous for being frank about their sexuality. You might have someone like Tucker Max who got popular for his tales of debauchery, hook ups, and anal, but that shit was corny even then and...well, it obviously came and went.

7 hours ago, SlackerInc said:

It's nothing that simplistic.  It's more that until recently, they could safely watch TV without having to look at women who are not at least "an 8" (whereas in certain quarters, Dunham has noted, her body would be seen as "probably a two") being sexual.  Such women, if they were present at all, were platonic best friends, cripplingly shy wallflowers, comic relief, or the objects of scorn and ridicule (written that way, I mean).  Upsetting this cultural norm has been hard for many people to accept.

I think that's more the case for Hollywood than society writ-large. I think Girls has done a decent job of portraying some aspects of life for millennials, but Lena being both dumpy and perpetually nude isn't really upsetting the apple cart. At this point a show about a twenty something Republican would be more groundbreaking than Girls.

[wendyg]

slackerinc: I agree with that. A woman who looks like Dunham has typically been cast as the quirky (best) friend. What was that line of Gretchen's on YOU'RE THE WORST - S2e07, "There is Not Currently a Problem"? To the failing improv comic Dorothy, she says (in a fit of depression-fueled rage), "You're what this town calls a 'tweener' - you're not hot enough to be the lead and not fat enough to be the funny friend." Well, Dunham isn't a "tweener" - she would have been in the funny friend category except that she's smart, funny, and a talented writer. As others have said, TINY FURNITURE was widely praised - Roger Ebert even hand-picked it for his festival, which only shows 12-14 films a year. That's where I first encountered Dunham, and the first thing I thought was how natural-sounding the dialogue was (and how much the movie reminded me of THE GRADUATE).

It doesn't hurt that Dunham is also extremely good at self-promotion. But the reality remains: she has real talent.

[Hecate7]

On 3/7/2017 at 2:14 PM, Matias130 said:

Hannah keeps trying to drive the point home that she is someone who has been traumatized by some kind of sexual harrassment and/or assault. Lena Dunham has also accused someone from college of sexually assaulting her. I just get the feeling that by her constantly reminding us that she has been sexually harassed, it somehow makes her seem like she is an attractive woman in some way. Also, all of the men that she has had sex or or rleationships with on the show have been "conventionally" attractive, far more than her. SSomething about that just makes me scratch my head

Since when has sexual assault or harassment EVER been about the victim's attractiveness? Fat girls and offbeat looking girls get catcalled just as much as "hot" ones, and probably get sexually harassed and raped even more often, because the men imagine that they're doing them a favor by even noticing them, and because nobody will believe the ordinary looking girl who says a handsome guy harassed or assaulted her.

On 3/8/2017 at 6:51 PM, 27bored said:

I've often thought this to some extent. Lena Dunham, and Hannah as written at times, has what I would call a Sexual Being Complex. Not totally unlike a Victim Complex, but there is a slight compulsion to be seen as sexual. And the funny thing is it's always chicks who, let's be honest, are pretty plain-looking. It's always chicks like Lena Dunham, Amy Schumer, Sandra Fluke...who want to act like they're having so much sex, and it's like, give me a break. It's not that they're ugly, but there's a low-key "point to be made" quality that makes them seem a little desperate for sexual validation.

 

Just because you're not attracted to a girl doesn't mean she's not having lots of sex. I think both Dunham and Schumer draw on their own experiences a great deal. I don't know about Fluke--I've never seen her act. But the average woman has lots of sex, most of it under unsatisfying or invalidating circumstances. Average women have to worry about being called sluts if they do and prudes if they don't, and sometimes whether they even want to or not gets lost in the giant list of male demands and expectations they have to consider before their own needs. Schumer does a great job of making fun of this phenomenon.

[guilfoyleatpp]

Marquis de Sade got pretty famous in a not corny way for telling his sexual exploits.

[27bored]

3 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

Just because you're not attracted to a girl doesn't mean she's not having lots of sex. I think both Dunham and Schumer draw on their own experiences a great deal. I don't know about Fluke--I've never seen her act. But the average woman has lots of sex, most of it under unsatisfying or invalidating circumstances. Average women have to worry about being called sluts if they do and prudes if they don't, and sometimes whether they even want to or not gets lost in the giant list of male demands and expectations they have to consider before their own needs. Schumer does a great job of making fun of this phenomenon.

Attractive or plain, when you make a point to talk about how sexually active you are, you're probably overcompensating for something. It's just my observation that chicks like the ones I mentioned tend to seek a certain amount of validation based on their sexuality. And it's a little beside the point, but most people don't think in blatantly Madonna/Whore terms. There are plenty of hoes out there and plenty of prudes as well, but the catalyst isn't as simple as having sex and liking it.

[AmandaPanda]

Topic, please. 

[Hecate7]

22 hours ago, 27bored said:

Attractive or plain, when you make a point to talk about how sexually active you are, you're probably overcompensating for something. It's just my observation that chicks like the ones I mentioned tend to seek a certain amount of validation based on their sexuality. And it's a little beside the point, but most people don't think in blatantly Madonna/Whore terms. There are plenty of hoes out there and plenty of prudes as well, but the catalyst isn't as simple as having sex and liking it.

It misses the point not only of the episode, but of the entire show, to boil it down to sex=sexiness=attractiveness=success. The whole point of it is that it's none of the above.  Sex is just sex. It accomplishes nothing, proves nothing, gives nothing. Chuck likes the sex he has with fans because their availability to him "proves" to him how much they like his writing. Not how attractive he is, or how much they like HIM, but how much they liked his writing. But the sex itself is unimportant--I doubt he even remembers any of the women or what they were like.

In return, his sex with them makes them feel like they got closer to "greatness" or something, but it's not an equal exchange. "I slept with Chuck" isn't a ticket to anything. You can't put it on a resume or get a comicon booking based on it. Chuck, however, can say "thousands of fans want to sleep with me" and leverage that into something. Sex on this show isn't about sexiness, because so often in a girl's life sex is not about sexiness at all. Chuck feels abused when the women complain and say it wasn't consensual. In fact it's just bad sex, which shouldn't make him feel good either. I think Chuck is technically innocent, but the dynamic between him and his female fans is a very unhealthy one. That he knows this, is proven by the weird position he puts Hannah in. Knowing Hannah, she's going to write it up exactly the way it happened, though. In the end she won't have it in her not to, daughter or no daughter.

Edited March 11, 2017 by Hecate7

[himela]

I think Hannah has always been like this; she is able to see the false or the mistake in front of her but she goes ahead and does it anyway with the only cause to just see what will happen. If Hannah was still 20, I'd say I could forgive her. But now, being near 30, she should have learnt that she is not a teen anymore. She can't dance in a party like a crazy person or have unprotected sex with a stranger who has admitted that surf teachers have sex with all the girls yet she is surprised and mad when she finds out he has a girlfriend. She can't go to a stranger's house alone after she has written an article about him being a sexual offender. She can't lay in bed with said stranger just cause he asked her. She can't touch his d$% just cause it was there. I mean, isn't she too old now for all these things?

[chocolatine]

I was just thinking today that this episode seems prescient now with all the high-profile sexual misconduct cases coming to light. I'm sure Lena knew about at least some of what's going on - a lot of the articles about Harvey Weinstein, Matt Lauer, etc., are saying that many industry people knew - but it's still chilling.