Anyone else feel different about Friends now...

[RainbowBrite]

1 minute ago, Meushell said:

It wasn’t right then either, as I stated in my post. This wasn’t a (to take from TV Tropes) fair for its day deal here. 

Regarding the tailor, I absolutely agree. I probably shouldn't have quoted your post.

[Bort]

2 hours ago, Meushell said:

I don’t really agree with the rest of the article though. It seems to be reaching. Joey having underwear around from someone he slept with doesn’t mean he secretly kept it as a trophy. A joke from his friends about him being better at dealing with drunk naked women doesn’t mean he actually rapes drunk women. It’s been a while since I saw those episodes, I admit, but I don’t think that was supposed to be taken literally.

Also, the article mentions how Joey disabled the lock on the bathroom door when Rachel moved in. I'm pretty sure she was joking when she said that and that Joey didn't deliberately break it. In fact, I would even go so far as to say that lock never seemed to have worked. People were always walking in on each other.

[JNM5505]

On 8/24/2018 at 4:38 PM, kariyaki said:

Also, the article mentions how Joey disabled the lock on the bathroom door when Rachel moved in. I'm pretty sure she was joking when she said that and that Joey didn't deliberately break it. In fact, I would even go so far as to say that lock never seemed to have worked. People were always walking in on each other.

Just saw that episode! I don't think any of the locks worked in either apartment, whether or not it's thanks to Joey.

[Danny Franks]

On 24/08/2018 at 6:56 PM, Meushell said:

The taylor issue was always alarming to me, and became more so as I grew older. I don’t really agree with the rest of the article though. It seems to be reaching. Joey having underwear around from someone he slept with doesn’t mean he secretly kept it as a trophy. A joke from his friends about him being better at dealing with drunk naked women doesn’t mean he actually rapes drunk women. It’s been a while since I saw those episodes, I admit, but I don’t think that was supposed to be taken literally.

Yeah. The trope of women leaving underwear in someone's home or car, or an even more embarrassing place, is much older than Friends. I've seen it play out a thousand different times. And never have I seen it portrayed as "the guy kept them as a trophy because he's a pervert".

I'm not going to read the article to see if there's any further context, but every joke about Joey and women was about him being a shallow womaniser. Is that a bad thing? In his case, yes, because he often seemed to give women false hope, and be dishonest about his intentions, rather than being up front and letting them then decide whether they still wanted to sleep with him. But it's not sexual assault. Trying to paint consenting adults having sex as sexual assault is more problematic than anything Friends ever did, in my view.

[JNM5505]

I agree. We have the word player–which is what Joey was–for a reason. They had consensual sex with a large number of women. With their consent, whether or not she was aware he was a player. I actually saw that episode where Joey was falling hard for his hook-up Erin, but she didn't want to have a serious relationship. The poor man was crushed, more crushed than Phoebe and Rachel. So he does have it in him to be a romantic, a genuinely loving and caring guy.

It's like Phoebe said some number of episodes ago, some people are like a jar of pickles you just have to bang and twist before you really divulge into their true selves. That is Joey Tribbiani.

[mojoween]

“You have a lot of sex right?”

”When, today?”

Inappropriate or not, that makes me laugh.

I wish I could remember what episode I was watching the other day that was making me cringe every time Ross opened his mouth.  Whatever he was saying was quite demeaning, and hearing the audience laugh was squicking me out.  It definitely was not something that would be funny today.

I realize this is incredibly unhelpful that I can’t remember the ep.  It might have been around the time just before Ross found out about Chandler and Monica.

[JNM5505]

I think all the characters made us cringe terribly at one point or another throughout the series.

I don't know if this is the episode you had in mind, but TOW Unagi was pretty cringe-worthy when it came to Ross. He was just acting outrageously creepy and predatory in this episode.

Edited September 9, 2018 by JNM5505

[Nellise]

2 hours ago, JNM5505 said:

I don't know if this is the episode you had in mind, but TOW Unagi was pretty cringe-worthy when it came to Ross. He was just acting outrageously creepy and predatory in this episode.

I don't mind that one since it feels mostly like friends goofing around and trying to one-up each other and it got a bit out of hand. The one I really dislike Ross in is the one with the male nanny, Sandy. Yeah, Rachel called him out for being stupid, but he still ended up getting his way, so I'm not really sure what they were trying to do there.

[Bort]

Yeah, the Unagi episode came off to me as Ross typically trying to prove he’s right and failing horribly at it. I was a little surprised that he didn’t get the cops called on him a couple times. I mean, the guy went into a self-defense class and tried to get tips from the instructor on how to attack his ex-wife.

[Joana]

14 hours ago, Nellise said:

 The one I really dislike Ross in is the one with the male nanny, Sandy. Yeah, Rachel called him out for being stupid, but he still ended up getting his way, so I'm not really sure what they were trying to do there.

That was a very strange one. For as much as people talk about homophobia on Friends, that episode was by far the most blatant example; and the episode was shot well towards the end of the show, so you can hardly say it was the spirit of the times. 

[JNM5505]

Mmm yeah and gay marriage was already legal in one state (Vermont, I think) and would soon be in my state at the time the episode aired. It's very strange.

Another episode where Ross makes me cringe is TOW Ross Is Fine and Ross' Tan.

[Meushell]

18 hours ago, Nellise said:

The one I really dislike Ross in is the one with the male nanny, Sandy. Yeah, Rachel called him out for being stupid, but he still ended up getting his way, so I'm not really sure what they were trying to do there.

I agree, but I also agree with the show that they both need to be happy with their nanny, even if the reason is unreasonable.

Also, regardless of gender, I wouldn’t want a nanny that was that sensitive. Sensitive, yes, but there needs to be a balance. 

[RainbowBrite]

1 hour ago, Meushell said:

I agree, but I also agree with the show that they both need to be happy with their nanny, even if the reason is unreasonable.

Also, regardless of gender, I wouldn’t want a nanny that was that sensitive. Sensitive, yes, but there needs to be a balance. 

The puppets alone would have been enough for me to say no to Sandy!

[Madding crowd]

Yes, I wouldn’t trust a nanny who cries when talking about his/her engagement or tries to insist adults play with puppets or learn songs on a recorder. I think Ross was uncomfortable with a nanny who acts so unprofessional.

[Bort]

For me,  it would have been the homemade diaper cream that would've led me to a hard pass on Sandy.

[Joana]

Those are all very valid points. However, the actual storyline in that episode was that Ross was feeling uncomfortable around Sandy because he thought he's gay. I mean, his closing line to him was "Come on, you gotta be at least bi!"

If you look back to all the "Chandler is/acts gay" jokes from earlier seasons, they had a very different undertone, as the bottom line was that his friends didn't mind it and accepted him for who he is. This was completely different, and as such, it really stands out, especially considering the time the episode originally aired.

[Madding crowd]

I don’t agree-yes Ross Initially thought he was gay, but it was his behavior he commented on. He made no objections about Sandy’s sexual orientation and Sandy quickly told them he was engaged to a woman.

[JNM5505]

1 hour ago, kariyaki said:

For me,  it would have been the homemade diaper cream that would've led me to a hard pass on Sandy.

This! Who the hell gave him the right to use a diaper rash cream on Emma? I feel it almost violates her, even if it's helpful.

(Did that make any sense?)

Ross should have gone all "Red Ross" and throw that person out.

[Danny Franks]

7 hours ago, JNM5505 said:

Another episode where Ross makes me cringe is TOW Ross Is Fine and Ross' Tan.

I like TOW Ross is Fine, in parts. Ross himself is extremely funny, even if his possessiveness over Rachel, six years after they broke up, is tedious and gross. I also liked how completely tired of his antics Rachel herself seemed to be. And the heart-to-heart between him and Joey is a really sweet moment of growth for both of them. But what pisses me off is, they have that moment of understanding and acceptance from Ross, and Joey declaring that he really is crazy about Rachel, in a sincere and grown up way. And then they throw that away for the awful slapstick of 'now Rachel can't even let Joey touch her without slapping him!' stupidity of the next episode.

[JNM5505]

And then, two episodes later, Emma's first birthday party, they act like Joey/Rachel never even happened.

They tried to point the signs towards Ross and Rachel in sudden spurts over the next thirteen or so episodes.

[Bort]

1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

I like TOW Ross is Fine, in parts. Ross himself is extremely funny, even if his possessiveness over Rachel, six years after they broke up, is tedious and gross. I also liked how completely tired of his antics Rachel herself seemed to be. And the heart-to-heart between him and Joey is a really sweet moment of growth for both of them. But what pisses me off is, they have that moment of understanding and acceptance from Ross, and Joey declaring that he really is crazy about Rachel, in a sincere and grown up way. And then they throw that away for the awful slapstick of 'now Rachel can't even let Joey touch her without slapping him!' stupidity of the next episode.

Similarly, they did the same thing with Charlie being very understanding that Ross was drunk and emotional, to where she just called it a night and didn't dump him for acting so crazy (like many women would have), only for her to decide a few episodes later that she was still in love with her ex and it was So Long, Ross.

Also, I love the running joke with the kitchen timer going off every time something was ready, only to have a drunken Ross stand there going, "I have no idea what that's for," when the last one dings.

[mojoween]

We have a double oven and I am CONSTANTLY saying that when a timer goes off.  Sadly, no one else in this household gets it.

Also I try to work “fajitas!” into conversation as much as possible.

[JNM5505]

I may see the show differently today than I did ten or twenty years ago.

But the series finale always brings me to tears.

[Jax7917]

2 hours ago, JNM5505 said:

I may see the show differently today than I did ten or twenty years ago.

But the series finale always brings me to tears.

I liked the ending scene with the 6 friends in the apartment and a final look at the keys/ peep hole .. but the Ross / rachel stuff was eh . They were pretty much thrown together in the last episode after not dating for 7 years for basically no reason . So for me, I didn't really care if they got back together or not . I always felt like they would have broken up again weeks after getting back together . 

Monica and chandler moving did get me choked up though . 

[Joana]

The finale episode gets me because it was quite literally the end of an era, not because of anything specific that happened in it, as the material itself was nothing special (the ending scene with them leaving their keys on the table was a nice touch, though). And honestly, much of season 10 was a chore anyway and it was about time to pull the plug. 

So for me, it's more about the symbolic aspect than anything else. 

[Madding crowd]

I really loved the ending, with one last look at the apartment and then them going out for coffee. I think the show did a good job of spreading the ending out over the last season and just letting the last episode be a gentle goodbye to the fans. I have the DVD's and watch them almost every night before bed and I always get a little misty eyed at the last scene. 

[RainbowBrite]

I never felt much emotional resonance with the finale. I was sad that there would be no new episodes, but as soon as Monica and Chandler announced they were moving (with that horrible clip show episode), I feel like the show lost something.

[Jax7917]

yea I felt like the saddest part of the episode / season was Monica and chandler moving out of the city . I get why they did it though .

[mojoween]

9 hours ago, Joana said:

The finale episode gets me because it was quite literally the end of an era, not because of anything specific that happened in it, as the material itself was nothing special (the ending scene with them leaving their keys on the table was a nice touch, though). And honestly, much of season 10 was a chore anyway and it was about time to pull the plug. 

So for me, it's more about the symbolic aspect than anything else. 

Sames.  If I am really attached to a show, or it means something to me beyond just being something I enjoy, series finales really gut me (‘cept you, Mad Men I mean WTF).

So when they are all looking around, and it looks like JENNIFER is upset, and not as Rachel, it makes my eyes leaky.  Every single time.  I could watch it today, tomorrow and Thursday and I would still sob at the end.

[helenamonster]

1 minute ago, mojoween said:

Sames.  If I am really attached to a show, or it means something to me beyond just being something I enjoy, series finales really gut me (‘cept you, Mad Men I mean WTF).

So when they are all looking around, and it looks like JENNIFER is upset, and not as Rachel, it makes my eyes leaky.  Every single time.  I could watch it today, tomorrow and Thursday and I would still sob at the end.

Normally I feel like it would annoy me that in the last scene all 6 of them dropped any pretense of acting and were really just being upset as people about it being over, but it didn't in this case. It was the exact right touch for the ending of this show.

And I liked that they didn't let it go all the way sappy, they still got some good jokes in: Monica paying the mover to let the dog fall off the truck, Joey wondering "Was it always purple?!"

[VCRTracking]

On 9/11/2018 at 6:17 PM, mojoween said:

Sames.  If I am really attached to a show, or it means something to me beyond just being something I enjoy, series finales really gut me (‘cept you, Mad Men I mean WTF).

So when they are all looking around, and it looks like JENNIFER is upset, and not as Rachel, it makes my eyes leaky.  Every single time.  I could watch it today, tomorrow and Thursday and I would still sob at the end.

I loved the finales to Friends AND Mad Men(that last montage gets me)! I kind of like that because Courtney Cox was a few months pregnant in real life, she looked a little like young Monica in flashbacks!

[mojoween]

Rachel hitting Ross over and over during their fight after he slept with Chloe is not so funny, actually.

[Jax7917]

I was surprised to read that none of the actors want to do a reboot . Jennifer Aniston was the only one to say she'd be open to the opportunity which I find odd since she made it out of the series as the biggest celebrity . Matt LeBlanc said absolutely not with the rest saying pretty much the same . 

I personally think all of the reboots have been cheapening the original shows . They all come off extra cheesy and turn the characters into cartoons . 

[Nellise]

8 hours ago, Jaclyn88 said:

I was surprised to read that none of the actors want to do a reboot . Jennifer Aniston was the only one to say she'd be open to the opportunity which I find odd since she made it out of the series as the biggest celebrity . Matt LeBlanc said absolutely not with the rest saying pretty much the same . 

I personally think all of the reboots have been cheapening the original shows . They all come off extra cheesy and turn the characters into cartoons . 

I think they probably feel like Seinfeld when he's talked about his show: It's done, they did it well, they've moved on. A reboot now would be a completely different show since the characters would have no reason to regularly be around each other. Emma and Monica and Chandler's kids would still be teenagers. It'd be Modern Family without the family part as an excuse to have them together (edit: oops forgot Monica and Ross are related, but there'd still be no reason for Joey and Phoebe to be around). What I think might work would be a reboot in 20 years where they all end up in a retirement community together, a Friends Golden Girls.

Edited October 22, 2018 by Nellise

[Danny Franks]

12 hours ago, Jaclyn88 said:

I was surprised to read that none of the actors want to do a reboot . Jennifer Aniston was the only one to say she'd be open to the opportunity which I find odd since she made it out of the series as the biggest celebrity . Matt LeBlanc said absolutely not with the rest saying pretty much the same . 

I personally think all of the reboots have been cheapening the original shows . They all come off extra cheesy and turn the characters into cartoons . 

I don't know the reasoning for all of them saying no, but I think there would just be something sad about a reboot, even as a one off special. The show was about a bunch of twenty-somethings, living in Nineties Manhattan. They can't ever recapture that, and a show about a bunch of 50 year olds living in the suburbs, dealing with teenage kids and thinking about pensions, just wouldn't be the same.

I always think the show ended on a melancholy note anyway. The feeling that their old lives were coming to an end, and what they were going on to might not be better. Because what could be better, for those six people, than hanging out in Monica's apartment, and spending time with your best friends? Their lives were fragmenting, and the reality of it is, they probably wouldn't have seen Joey for a decade, and Phoebe for perhaps almost as long. And I can never imagine Ross and Rachel still being together, simply because their relationship never functioned healthily.

For Matt LeBlanc, whose character in Episodes was built largely around being an ageing heartthrob who struggles to let go of the past, he's probably quite aware of what trying to recapture that old magic could look like.

Edited October 22, 2018 by Danny Franks

[wendyg]

SEINFELD did a reunion...but they did it on CURB YOUR ENTHUSIASM. And it was great. If FRIENDS wanted to do a reunion they'd have had to do it on EPISODES. But it was much funnier having them all turn Matt down.

[Teriyaki Terror]

Watching it as a 37 year old compared to a teenager...Emily wasn't that bad. Actually, I think she was more suited for Ross than Rachel. She got him out of his comfort zone. There was nothing wrong with her demanding Ross to stay away from Rachel. With a history like theirs, there was no reason they needed to stay so close. They made her out to be a b*tch when all she wanted was a faithful man.

[Jax7917]

2 minutes ago, Teriyaki Terror said:

Watching it as a 37 year old compared to a teenager...Emily wasn't that bad. Actually, I think she was more suited for Ross than Rachel. She got him out of his comfort zone. There was nothing wrong with her demanding Ross to stay away from Rachel. With a history like theirs, there was no reason they needed to stay so close. They made her out to be a b*tch when all she wanted was a faithful man.

I agree and think I wrote something similar a while ago. I didn't think Emily was bad considering the circumstances and I thought her and Ross made a better match than Ross and Rachel (even though their relationship was short-lived.) He said his ex girlfriend's name instead of hers when reciting his vows and everyone thought she was being unreasonable by being upset that they were still going to be seeing each other all the time. If this were a real situation, nobody would be fine with that.

[FormerMod-a1]

I thought both Ross & Julie and Ross & Emily were a better match than Ross & Rachael.   I wasn't thrilled with the rest of his love interests though.  They weren't all bad, just not great either.

As for Rachael's other love interests, I didn't really like any of them.  Some of them were fine as "people", just not a good match.

[Bort]

The problem with Rachel's love interests is that most of them were never supposed to be taken seriously, either there was something super-weird about them (like the sister-lover) or Rachel acted so insane that they ran screaming (JoshuAAAh), so it's hard to compare hers with Ross's.

[HazelEyes4325]

1 hour ago, aquarian1 said:

I thought both Ross & Julie and Ross & Emily were a better match than Ross & Rachael.   I wasn't thrilled with the rest of his love interests though.  They weren't all bad, just not great either.

 

I also thought the alternate universe Ross and Phoebe hook-up was a better match than Ross & Rachel.

[Jax7917]

1 hour ago, aquarian1 said:

I thought both Ross & Julie and Ross & Emily were a better match than Ross & Rachael.   I wasn't thrilled with the rest of his love interests though.  They weren't all bad, just not great either.

As for Rachael's other love interests, I didn't really like any of them.  Some of them were fine as "people", just not a good match.

I liked Ross and Julie together too. I also think Ross was a better character as a whole during the first few seasons and became a little bit more of a joke later on so his love interests early on were taken more seriously.

Rachel didn't get any good love interests and none of the ones she actually had were supposed to be taken seriously so I agree with the poster above, that you can't compare their relationships. I don't know why the show made her act so desperate and obsessed with the guys they actually did give her (Danny, Tag, JoshuAAA) are the ones I remember off hand.

[RainbowBrite]

1 hour ago, Jaclyn88 said:

I liked Ross and Julie together too. I also think Ross was a better character as a whole during the first few seasons and became a little bit more of a joke later on so his love interests early on were taken more seriously.

Rachel didn't get any good love interests and none of the ones she actually had were supposed to be taken seriously so I agree with the poster above, that you can't compare their relationships. I don't know why the show made her act so desperate and obsessed with the guys they actually did give her (Danny, Tag, JoshuAAA) are the ones I remember off hand.

I think Gavin could have turned out better than it did. It may just be my residual love for Dermot Mulroney from My Best Friend's Wedding, but I didn't hate him.

[Madding crowd]

I thought Gavin was a good match for Rachel and I liked Charlie with Ross. But I'm one of the few who don't hate Ross and Rachel either. Sometimes people do love someone who is not like them-my husband of 24 years can attest to that. Friends is one of my all time favorite shows and I generally like it all and don't take anything too seriously since it is a comedy. The only thing that really bothers me was them making Joey so idiotic he could barely function. That was a big FU to Matt Le Blanc and it made his friendships with the other five more of a pity thing, which was awful. He was actually supposed to be pretty famous in the soap opera world and, he had been in one hit movie (the one with Gary Oldman) the star of his own show (Mac and Cheese) and would have been treated as someone more than an annoyance they could barely stand. I really loved Joey and Chandler's friendship in the early seasons and by the end, Chandler treated him like he was too dumb to be around. 

Edited November 29, 2018 by Madding crowd

[Bort]

15 minutes ago, Madding crowd said:

I'm one of the few who don't hate Ross and Rachel either. Sometimes people do love someone who is not like them

I didn't like Ross and Rachel because I thought Ross was a huge asshole, not because they had little in common. 

Every time I watch this now, I get so annoyed at how much of a dick Ross is, and not just to Rachel, to everybody. One of my favorite scenes with Phoebe is when she knocks him down a peg over the evolution argument -- which, I might add, he was being unbelievably obsessive. It's like, dude, she doesn't agree with you, let it go. But nooooooo. That's why I loved how she dinged him.

[FormerMod-a1]

I didn't like Ross when he was with Rachel, and I didn't like Rachel when Ross was with someone else.

[Jax7917]

36 minutes ago, aquarian1 said:

I didn't like Ross when he was with Rachel, and I didn't like Rachel when Ross was with someone else.

Rachel and Ross were fine when they were actually together for those few episodes, but the writers wanted you to root for them after not being together for 7? years and barely having them flirt with each other during those years. I felt like once Ross moved on with Emily, Ross and Rachel lost their chemistry and I really didn't ever see them get it back.

[helenamonster]

8 hours ago, HazelEyes4325 said:

I also thought the alternate universe Ross and Phoebe hook-up was a better match than Ross & Rachel.

The Ross and Phoebe almost-hookup wasn't AU, it was from "The One with the Flashback." They really did almost do it right after Carol came out to Ross.

[HazelEyes4325]

1 minute ago, helenamonster said:

The Ross and Phoebe almost-hookup wasn't AU, it was from "The One with the Flashback." They really did almost do it right after Carol came out to Ross.

Ah, okay!  For some reason, I thought that was in the episode where Rachel almost hooks up with Joey, but now that I think about it, that was the one where Phoebe was a stockbroker.

Those two (or 3? Wasn't one a 2-parter?) episodes tend to merge in my mind.

[salmondean]

I still really enjoy watching the show, but on my most recent rewatch, a lot of things about it bothered me that I previously didn't notice about it.  

To bash Ross, a lot of people will use Joey as an example of a much better and ideal male character, but I think they forget that, especially in the first several seasons of the show, there were a lot of "jokes" (often very brief ones so it's not like it was a huge narrative focus) about Joey getting excited by the prospect of drunk or emotionally vulnerable women because they were an easy lay and there were several occasions where he had no qualms about sleeping with women who were married or in a relationship (which I think was a whole moral quandary for Chandler in one ep even though the woman was in an open relationship). I believe that Ross and Chandler might have done similar things at certain points, but it happened with Joey enough times that it was basically a character trait of his. I think a lot of people don't really think about this aspect of Joey's character because his womanizing was softened by the fact that he was also very dumb and lovable but...guys, if Ross is gross for how possessive and weird he was about Rachel, then Joey is gross for doing those things. He definitely wasn't a Barney-from-HIMYM level sociopath or anything like that and had many other good qualities, but there's some super dodgy stuff about his character that just hasn't aged well (although this is true of most of the other Friends' characters and 90s sitcoms in general). His and Chandler's friendship was still adorable though and I very much enjoyed the eps where Joey showed what a supportive person he was to everyone. 

 

Rachel was also a huge asshole towards Julie and the narrative at least acknowledged how irrational she was being, but I was really surprised by how unlikable she was during that plotline and I spent most of it feeling very sorry for Julie. I hope she somehow found happiness with that weird Ross clone. Later, she was also a giant douche about Phoebe hooking one of her friends up with Ross as soon as she found out that the friend was hot and had hair again (when she was previously gleefully vindictive when she thought that Phoebe was trying to set Ross up with a bald woman).  The plotlines where she literally sexually harassed her assistant Tag (him being receptive to the advances eventually didn't really make it better) and pretty much stalked Joshua were also deeply cringey. Ross' romantic endeavors and behaviors in relationships were also very difficult to root for, but I don't think Rachel has a very good track record when it comes to men either. Despite that, Rachel is still my favorite character and I think Jennifer Aniston was still extremely funny in the role. The scene in the Pilot where she's on the phone with her dad still cracks me up and her delivery when she was reading the letter about her dead dog in a later episode was hysterical. 

 

I also enjoyed the Monica/Chandler relationship a lot less on this rewatch and ended up really mourning the fact that Monica/Richard weren't endgame even though they had very valid reasons for breaking up. Weirdly, I started to really like the idea of Rachel and Chandler being a couple. Their dynamic wasn't always showcased but I thought they had a good rapport and some cute subplots every once in a while. 

Edited December 1, 2018 by salmondean