S01.E13: The Seal Is Broken

[WendyCR72]

Riggs and Murtaugh investigate a series of violent crimes targeting members of the same church; the anniversary of Miranda's death weighs on Riggs; Trish and Roger butt heads with R.J.

[JackONeill]

Man, I really want to like this show, and it does have its moments, but the writing needs to slow down. They need to take some time and let things breathe. Too much gets rushed. Tonight's show just wasn't satisfying for me. The one-night stand, the dead wife, the father-in-law, the drinking too much, the confessions -- it all blasted past. And forget the main story.

[Morrigan2575]

33 minutes ago, JackONeill said:

Man, I really want to like this show, and it does have its moments, but the writing needs to slow down. They need to take some time and let things breathe. Too much gets rushed. Tonight's show just wasn't satisfying for me. The one-night stand, the dead wife, the father-in-law, the drinking too much, the confessions -- it all blasted past. And forget the main story.

That's funny, I'm the exact opposite. I'm like why are we dragging our feet, let's get Riggs over the crazy pants/drinking/suicidal thing!

I dont want everything wrapped up and forgotten but I kind of wish they'd just make some progress on Riggs already. I feel like we're just going around in circles at this point.

Other than that I must once again blame this board for making me notice Riggs hair (horrible!) I was so excited when he was wearing a cap in that one church scene.

I did like the final scene where Murtaugh saved Riggs' life. I also enjoyed the final Murtaugh/Avery scene. 

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

. . . I did like the final scene where Murtaugh saved Riggs' life. I also enjoyed the final Murtaugh/Avery scene. 

After tonight's episode, I decided the boss ("Avery"?) is the most well-drawn and nuanced character.

[Miss Dee]

I loved the confessional too, and Roger's admission that he considers Reese a friend. I really wish Reese could have heard it on that speaker, even if he didn't respond.

CC really sold how guilty he felt for cheating on his wife. I for one am grateful that they're taking their time coming out of this. Suicidal grief is not something that should begin healing in a few episodes. And it's one of my pet peeves nowadays that writers burn through plot so damn fast. I don't want things dragged out, but I think having Martin grieve for most of the season is not unrealistic in the grand scheme of things.

I love Avery. As far as buddy-cop supervisors go, he's absolutely a breath of fresh air. I love all the characters on this show. I remain torn on whether I want a marriage like Roger and Trish's, or Randall and Beth's on This is Us.

[dwmarch]

9 hours ago, JackONeill said:

Man, I really want to like this show, and it does have its moments, but the writing needs to slow down. They need to take some time and let things breathe. Too much gets rushed. Tonight's show just wasn't satisfying for me. The one-night stand, the dead wife, the father-in-law, the drinking too much, the confessions -- it all blasted past. And forget the main story.

I blame that on Fox because I am certain these episodes are not being shown in order. I will pay actual money to see them as intended!

[Morrigan2575]

1 hour ago, dwmarch said:

I blame that on Fox because I am certain these episodes are not being shown in order. I will pay actual money to see them as intended!

That's interesting. Has there been any news or rumors about that? Normally it gets out when episodes are aired out of order.

[Morrigan2575]

1 hour ago, Miss Dee said:

L I for one am grateful that they're taking their time coming out of this. Suicidal grief is not something that should begin healing in a few episodes. And it's one of my pet peeves nowadays that writers burn through plot so damn fast. I don't want things dragged out, but I think having Martin grieve for most of the season is not unrealistic in the grand scheme of things.

The problem for me is that they're not progressing the character at all, they're just going around in circles. It's one thing to deal with his emotional grief if he took a step forward every episode (or 2) with the occasional set back/stumble. However, it feels like what we're getting is a giant circle. Last week Riggs chose Life, yeah the symbolism was heavy handed but, it worked. He was faced with finally getting his death wish and chose to life instead! Woohoo progress!  

This week he wants to die again, so all progress from last week was lost. In fact this would have been the perfect episode to show what he's learned about himself and, how he's moving forward. Have Riggs honor his wife's memory and, family by showing up for the memorial/celebration at the end of the episode. Even if he spent all episode using alcohol to cope or making poor choices and being guilty. That, to me would have worked better, to show that while he's still NOT OK he's getting there, even if it's baby steps.

I hope @dwmarch is right and FOX messed with the episode order. That would at least explain why it feels like Riggs is so stagnant. It would also explain the occasional issues with the Rigg/Murtagh relationship which also seems off from time to time.

[JackONeill]

I'm five years into grief after losing my wife from a long battle with cancer. So, I get the "time." 

In an earlier post, I said I felt this show (not just this episode) felt rushed. I didn't mean just that they've been rushing Riggs through grief. But they have been inconsistent with portraying it. (Again, I understand everyone processes grief differently.) But I feel the writers don't quite know what to do with it.

The thing is -- rightly or wrongly -- this is one aspect that made the Lethal Weapon franchise what it was. Riggs was a nut, Murtaugh had to cope. But WHY was Riggs a nut? Because he'd lost his wife!!! And Riggs had nothing left to lose. So, he was suicidal. Or, best case, a nut.  (Sure, after the first movie, this cause started fading into the background.)

In the TV show, they seem to be using it as a tool. First, and in more than one episode, he seemed suicidal, he even put the gun to his head (or in his mouth as in the movie). But then he told Murtaugh he wasn't suicidal, and for that episode at least, he seemed to be okay.  But then, in another episode, he does appear to be suicidal. Again.

Now he's drinking and blacking out and picking up women! That seems totally out of the blue even given his grief. But, see, the problem is the writers haven't shown us who Riggs really is. We have no true foundation. Frankly, with what I've seen, I'm not sure why he's considered to be such a great cop. Throwing oneself off buildings DOES NOT make one a great cop.

Another thing: Trish seems to be a smart woman. Well, if I were Trish, I'd make damn sure Riggs never got around my husband or kids. Again, I blame that on the writers. I see very little that's redeeming in Riggs.

Again, and not to compare, but somewhow the writers for the first movie were able to get across that Riggs was a good cop and a good person (at heart) BUT a nut but only because of his grief.

[Miss Dee]

I suppose the picking up a woman could be related to losing his wedding ring. Even though he bought another one, on some level he's probably aware that the last physical reminder of his marriage is gone and that ring is not "real" but an attempt to prevent his finger (and heart) from feeling so empty. He admitted in this episode that he's starting to forget things about his marriage (the drinking is not helping, I imagine).

I also don't think he was suicidal at the end - I think he was concerned that Roger would die with him if he didn't let go, and was trying to make Roger save himself. Not that Riggs wasn't somewhat at peace with the idea of dying, but I don't think he was actively seeking out the opportunity.

I'm sorry for your loss, @JackONeill.

[ChelseaNH]

4 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

However, it feels like what we're getting is a giant circle.

I think that's realistic.  You feel better, you circle around to despondence, you feel better, you circle around to despondence...  The progress you get is spending less time in the down part of the cycle until you gradually stabilize.

1 hour ago, Miss Dee said:

Not that Riggs wasn't somewhat at peace with the idea of dying, but I don't think he was actively seeking out the opportunity.

Agreed.  If he was suicidal, he would have let go before Roger arrived.

[JackONeill]

Actually, I didn't think he was suicidal at the end of this episode when he fell. I, too, thought he was at peace. Question is: is he FINALLY at peace? That's for us to find out. Later. (BTW - this was perhaps the best piece of writing -- their scene on the roof -- I've seen from this show.)

However, what I do have a problem with, and it does have to do with falling/jumping off other buildings, is TPTB hasn't adequately (IMO) shown why Riggs or even Roger are good cops (good as in skilled). [Sure, Riggs was Spec Ops (cliche, much?) and Roger is an old-timer. But what else?]

It seems like (again to me) TPTB's way of showing what super-cops they are is by having them dive through a building's window into a teeny tiny swimming pool. Look, no cop show (with few exceptions) is accurate. But some of the stuff they pull on this show is beyond the pale. Last night, falling into that tree-- sure it stopped their fall. But it would have killed them or, at the very least, crippled them. And Roger would have been forever singing soprano. Now, maybe this is just me, but I didn't sign on for a super-hero show, or for a show geared towards the 17-year-olds who think jumping into a pool from 15 stories is something they'll be doing on Spring Break.

I can hand wave some of this high-falutin' action stuff if they create characters I can get behind and believe and understand, not that I need to agree with their every action. Then, it's easier to digest the less-than-credible action.

They have an excellent premise (witness the movies -- except maybe Nos. 3-18!). They have good actors (I like both of them very much). All I want and ask is that the writers up their game.

Edited January 26, 2017 by JackONeill

[Raja]

I can't be the only one who for a moment thought he was watching Mel Gibson and the South African played by Patsy Kensett in Lethal Weapon 2.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, ChelseaNH said:

I think that's realistic.  You feel better, you circle around to despondence, you feel better, you circle around to despondence...  The progress you get is spending less time in the down part of the cycle until you gradually stabilize.

I agree completely.  I also know that it can take years to either go through with it, or get through it.

[shapeshifter]

10 hours ago, JackONeill said:

I'm five years into grief after losing my wife from a long battle with cancer. So, I get the "time." 

In an earlier post, I said I felt this show (not just this episode) felt rushed. I didn't mean just that they've been rushing Riggs through grief. But they have been inconsistent with portraying it. (Again, I understand everyone processes grief differently.) But I feel the writers don't quite know what to do with it.

The thing is -- rightly or wrongly -- this is one aspect that made the Lethal Weapon franchise what it was. Riggs was a nut, Murtaugh had to cope. But WHY was Riggs a nut? Because he'd lost his wife!!! And Riggs had nothing left to lose. So, he was suicidal. Or, best case, a nut.  (Sure, after the first movie, this cause started fading into the background.)

In the TV show, they seem to be using it as a tool. First, and in more than one episode, he seemed suicidal, he even put the gun to his head (or in his mouth as in the movie). But then he told Murtaugh he wasn't suicidal, and for that episode at least, he seemed to be okay.  But then, in another episode, he does appear to be suicidal. Again.

Now he's drinking and blacking out and picking up women! That seems totally out of the blue even given his grief. But, see, the problem is the writers haven't shown us who Riggs really is. We have no true foundation. Frankly, with what I've seen, I'm not sure why he's considered to be such a great cop. Throwing oneself off buildings DOES NOT make one a great cop.

Another thing: Trish seems to be a smart woman. Well, if I were Trish, I'd make damn sure Riggs never got around my husband or kids. Again, I blame that on the writers. I see very little that's redeeming in Riggs.

Again, and not to compare, but somewhow the writers for the first movie were able to get across that Riggs was a good cop and a good person (at heart) BUT a nut but only because of his grief.

Yeah, jumping off of buildings every week just makes Riggs a nut — a lucky nut, but still a nut, not a good cop. (Have they done it every episode? 12 rounds of chemo this past year has wiped out a lot of memory, and I'm just trying to keep work skills in mind.) But I seem to recall most weeks that Riggs also seems to use his experience with loss to make meaningful connections with the victims' family member(s) to help them recall useful clues and to deal with their own loss — which good and great cops should do. But in the end, what usually results in being labled great at one's job is the bottom line, and like the mounties (I think it was them), Riggs and Murtagh "always get their man" (or whatever gender perp). Still, I agree that we could use some backstory on Riggs, maybe via flashbacks to before his brief marriage.

[Trey]

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

12 rounds of chemo this past year has wiped out a lot of memory, and I'm just trying to keep work skills in mind.)

Very gentle hugs to you @shapeshifter.

[Racj82]

I will repeat this again about the show compared to the movie and Riggs. 

Riggs was the way he was in the series for one movie. After less than 2 hours we stopped having to make Riggs primary existence and development be about his grief. He found peace through his new family in the first movie. Found out that he could love again in the second. Found real love in third and found a way to truly move on and start a new family without feeling guilty in the fourth. 

We never forgot about his wife. His grief never fully went away. That's not what people are asking for. People are asking the show to move past this stage. Riggs has been the man with the gun in his mouth from the first movie for thirteen episodes. I just can't. Instead of showing him progressing he's regressing every week. That may be true to life but it's making for really stagnant tv. None of the lessons he's learning are really going anywhere. 

With Murtaugh we get his family, his health issues, his relationship with his former partner now boss, dealing with Riggs. Riggs is one note played over and over again.

Edited February 2, 2017 by Racj82

[paigow]

On 1/26/2017 at 6:18 PM, Raja said:

I can't be the only one who for a moment thought he was watching Mel Gibson and the South African played by Patsy Kensett in Lethal Weapon 2.

Or TV Riggs having a porno fantasy...because that's the only time hot bartenders go home with blackout drunk customers....

[Raja]

1 hour ago, paigow said:

Or TV Riggs having a porno fantasy...because that's the only time hot bartenders go home with blackout drunk customers....

I thought of The Wire but the waitress at the diner with McNulty was your average person not TV actress/model type.

[weathered1]

On 1/26/2017 at 6:02 AM, Morrigan2575 said:

That's interesting. Has there been any news or rumors about that? Normally it gets out when episodes are aired out of order.

I'm going to jump in here, because I'd been thinking that Riggs' characterization has been fairly inconsistent. For me, this episode confirmed that we're seeing things out of order: In the episode with the guy from El Paso (the one who beheaded people, pushed the girl off the building to her death, and then was shot at the end), Riggs stated that his wife was killed in September of 2015. Then the show had its Christmas episode. Now, in this episode, it's the anniversary of Miranda's death and Riggs has a line about how it's starting to get cold/chilly. 

So, yeah, Fox has definitely messed with the order in which the eps are being aired. In my view, that's not a great decision since - and this echoes some of the sentiments others have expressed in this thread - so much of Riggs' characterization deals with him processing that grief and (very) slowly starting to turn the corner from the depths of his loss and depression. 

[paigow]

8 hours ago, weathered1 said:

I'm going to jump in here, because I'd been thinking that Riggs' characterization has been fairly inconsistent. For me, this episode confirmed that we're seeing things out of order: In the episode with the guy from El Paso (the one who beheaded people, pushed the girl off the building to her death, and then was shot at the end), Riggs stated that his wife was killed in September of 2015. Then the show had its Christmas episode. Now, in this episode, it's the anniversary of Miranda's death and Riggs has a line about how it's starting to get cold/chilly. 

So, yeah, Fox has definitely messed with the order in which the eps are being aired. In my view, that's not a great decision since - and this echoes some of the sentiments others have expressed in this thread - so much of Riggs' characterization deals with him processing that grief and (very) slowly starting to turn the corner from the depths of his loss and depression. 

To go full Sherlock...does anyone have screengrabs of the ring that Riggs bought in the pawnshop vs the one in this episode?

[romantic idiot]

On January 26, 2017 at 4:38 PM, Miss Dee said:

And it's one of my pet peeves nowadays that writers burn through plot so damn fast. I don't want things dragged out, but I think having Martin grieve for most of the season is not unrealistic in the grand scheme of things.

But it gets damn tiring to watch as a viewer. 

[Coconuts]

I'm kind of torn on things being out of order. On one hand, it messes with the story. On the other, we started the series 3-4 episodes in (marathoned, not skipped), and got attached to the warmth and ridiculousness. The last few episodes have been pretty dark, and I'm not sure I would have stuck around had it started so dark and lightened up. 

[weathered1]

^That's exactly the issue, as I see it. I'd guess that the writers originally set things up so that there would be a mix of the humor and the darkness.  When Fox messed with the order, I'd bet they did it to try draw people in with the laughs and action. The problem with that is what has been noted so many times in this thread: it messed with the characterization and it messed with the overall tone of the show by putting the darker episodes together. 

[Guest]

I finally watched the episode last night, and while I agree that Riggs should still be deeply grieving, I have to agree that it is a little much and a little too dark as it is being portrayed.  Grief cycles, but there is progress and I don't see it much with Riggs.  I really didn't like how he was in this episode - I'd really like to see them explore a little of his relationship with his in-laws.  They've shown they care deeply about him, and while it was understandable in the earlier episode where he tried going for dinner but couldn't make himself go in, I think it's time they show him letting them into his grief too.  They suffered an unimaginable loss as well.  Plus it would be nice to see the whole plot not just be the Murtaughs, Chief, and Riggs.  I feel Roger is a much more rounded character because we see him interacting with more people in more areas of life.  Riggs should have some of that too, while still isolating himself some.

[TobinAlbers]

Whew, that was rough with Martin telling his father-in-law that he was not family, that he was 'just lucky for a little while'.  I get that Martin is looking to the Murtaughs as family -and because they're separate from his life with Miranda it is easier to move on with them than by being 'mired' in his pain by remaining entrenched with her family - but still sad he had to let Miranda's family go like that.

Part of me suspect they may be distancing Martin from his father in law because father in law may indeed be involved with the cartel and that will be revealed later in the season. It'd be devastating to Martin if he had no other anchor than the Murtaughs but because he does, he'll be able to move past it if/when it happens.

On 1/26/2017 at 6:08 AM, Miss Dee said:

I for one am grateful that they're taking their time coming out of this. Suicidal grief is not something that should begin healing in a few episodes. And it's one of my pet peeves nowadays that writers burn through plot so damn fast. I don't want things dragged out, but I think having Martin grieve for most of the season is not unrealistic in the grand scheme of things.

With you on this as well.  Martin not only lost his wife but his child and moved from Texas to California simply to be close to her. That's a lot to work through.  I would expect it to take a year to not only get his head straight to move past that but also be willing to form new emotional connections and be caught between wanting to honor his wife by living his life and end his pain to 'join her'. Now that we definitely have a Season 2 Martin is for sure going to be shown really taking the big steps of moving away from the cycle of drinking, depression, and suicidal/risky behavior into being a bit more grounded if for no other reason that he has Roger and Trish who truly love and look out for him.  And now they have a whole new angle for CC to play of a Riggs making an effort to date and REALLY be able to turn on the charm with women who catch his eye.

[Nozycat]

I for one love the way they are portraying grief and not rushing through it.