All Episodes Talk: Troubled People

[Guest]

A place to discuss particular episodes (that do not have specific episode threads), arcs and moments from the show's run. Please remember this isn't a complete catch-all topic -- check out the forum for character topics and other places for show-related talk.

[Tabbyclaw]

Stupid question for the class: You know those gorgeous Nova Scotia forests they wander through in every other episode? What kind of trees are those?

[Shanna Marie]

I was just skimming through the early pages of the TWOP forum, during the first season, and some of the theories about what was going on then were just adorable. How innocent we were.

 

Funny, during the first six or so episodes of the first season, we were complaining because there was too much focus on the Trouble of the Week, with no progress on the big mysteries, like the Colorado Kid or Audrey's identity and the search for Lucy. Now we're complaining because there's so much focus on the arc and on Audrey's identity that we're losing the procedural aspect.

 

Something that's struck me while rewatching: This may be an odd comparison, but in a way this series reminds me of Friday Night Lights. On the surface, they're exact opposites, with one being (mostly) hyper-realistic and the other being paranormal, but there's a similar sense of place that probably comes from being filmed on location in a place that's somewhat similar to the fictional location and far away from usual production facilities. That means the houses look like real houses (because they are), the streets look like real streets instead of like a backlot (because they are). The cars look like real cars that people really drive instead of all looking like they just came off the assembly line (well, until they started getting product placement sponsorship, but Duke and Nathan still drive old trucks), and the extras and lower-level supporting cast look like real people living in a small coastal town instead of like aspiring Hollywood actors. There's some crazy stuff going on, but the setting seems very real and genuine.

[MarkHB]

Does Audrey still drive a Chrysler after her sojourn in the Barn?  The first few seasons she was driving that Intrepid (which I think was silently slipped out for a Concorde at some point); I noticed it because that's what I was driving at the time.  But for some reason I thought she was back in some Mopar after she left Lexie behind.

 

@Tabbyclaw, Maine has similar forests to Nova Scotia, but I'm afraid I have no idea what trees those are off the top of my head.  If you can post a screengrab I'll see if I recognize them.

[Shanna Marie]

I think Audrey got one of those spiffy new Toyotas from the future after the Barn (since they seem to be the latest model and the episodes are set in 2011). When she landed in the alternate Haven, she lamented "I just got that car!" when she came outside and it was gone. I guess Duke and Nathan's trucks were too iconic for product placement replacement, but everyone else was fair game, so it became all Toyota, all the time. But hey, if that's what keeps the show on the air, I can live with it.

[Elsinore]

I still think that's the best scene in that episode.

 

You just woke up in a vacant storage room and your furniture and your boyfriend don't exist here, but they better not have taken the new car as well.

[Shanna Marie]

Okay, some big-picture thoughts on "Spiral" that get spoilery for the rest of the series.

 

On this rewatch, I found myself wondering if Max is one of those people from the other side. There was a lot about his overall behavior that reminded me very much of William, with a hardness that reminds me a lot of Mara. Then there was his scene with Dave, where that might have been part of what was going on there, that they were both from that same place and Max was reminding Dave of that. Of course, it could all be in my head, but I kept thinking of William in all of Max's scenes. That could also be whatever his connection with Audrey was, when he acted like she was familiar. It could have been because he knew Lucy, but maybe it was about Mara. And it could have had something to do with his confrontation with Duke, if that was about Duke being a Crocker.

[Elsinore]

I always wondered about that family that he supposedly killed and went to jail for.

 

He didn't know about Mara. Mainly because the writers hadn't thought her up yet at that point.  Not even Vince and Dave appeared to know and Vince runs the freakin Guard who are supposed to prevent her remembering and creating havoc. I figure that's what the initial idea behind it was anyway.

 

I re watched both The New Girl and Countdown last week. I hated TNG the first time around because she pretended to be someone else ON PURPOSE. Re watching it six months later I can definitely see the humor in it some more. The reason why still miffs me. She appeared to have fun with it though.

 

Countdown: Pretty sure all that talking the Troubled guy out of killing people and talking him into asking out a complete stranger took a whole lot longer then 15 seconds. Also like that no one was really horrified at the principal glazing over in the office. They just kept on discussing things as usual.

[Tabbyclaw]

On this rewatch, I found myself wondering if Max is one of those people from the other side.

 

...Hm. I can see nothing that prevents this theory from being possible, and it is an interesting one. My first thought is that it would "fix" the observation I've heard people make that it's odd that Nathan seems to be the only one of the three leads without some kind of "destiny" and connection to the Troubles.

 

Tangential observation about the people from the Other Side: Is anyone else assuming that the whole "you have to kill someone you love" thing is someone taking the truth out of context and passing it down improperly? Because I am dead certain that the real solution is that she has to kill William and no one else.

[BlueJay81]

 

He didn't know about Mara. Mainly because the writers hadn't thought her up yet at that point.

Has this been verified by the writers or production team? I think Mara was part of the original blueprint, am more doubtful about William though. The whole thing with Howard not wanting her to remember, the need for the whole memory wiping barn cycle, I think that points to Mara being part of the original plan.

 

I think Max Hansen, originally part of the Guard, probably betrayed them by switiching to the Rev's side or was tasked with some undercover work in the Rev's group but then betrayed the Guard to benefit himself.  He seemed to want money from Dave, though I think Dave probably used him or framed him in some way with regards to the CK murder and even the 'mysterious family murder". I think at some point they were working together in some way and Max took the fall for it. Vince and Dave seem to have some history of using people, at least in Vince's case we know he activated Simon's Trouble for his wife's benefit and then killed him with Lucy, when Simon lost it,but apparently they were friends before that.

 

The interaction between Max and Audrey did seem to hint at familiarity on Max's part. He didn't seem hostile towards her and there seemed to be some subtle hints that he knew her, was that as Lucy or Mara? Not sure about Max being from the other side, but he may have visited the place with Dave. Dave seemed very afraid of him.

Edited June 20, 2014 by BlueJay81

[Shanna Marie]

I think Mara was part of the original blueprint, am more doubtful about William though. The whole thing with Howard not wanting her to remember, the need for the whole memory wiping barn cycle, I think that points to Mara being part of the original plan.

They had to submit an overall plan for the series and a bible on the mythology to Stephen King before he'd let them make a series based on his book, and you'd think that the idea of who Audrey really was would have been central to that. They may have expanded some things, changed some things and moved some things around, and they may not have known the name "Mara" at the time, but I'd guess that they knew that Audrey was the one who started it all even back in season one.

[BlueJay81]

It seems to me that the writers seem to have forgotten that Dave is older than Vince (As you Were S1). When Vince revealed his Guard tattoo and that it's a birthright of the first born son (When the Bough Breaks S4), Jennifer asked what does the second born get and Dave revealed he is adopted but noone corrected this inaccurate assumption by Jennifer that Dave is younger than Vince.

I am stickler for details and that annoyed me a bit.

[Tabbyclaw]

There's no reason to correct her assumption; it wasn't relevant to the conversation.

[Shanna Marie]

There's no reason to correct her assumption; it wasn't relevant to the conversation.

That was my personal handwave when I noticed the same thing -- Vince says the first-born Teagues has the birthmark, she assumes that means he's oldest and asks Dave what the second-born gets, he says he's not a Teagues. While they don't correct her false assumption, there's nothing that actually contradicts the previously established fact, since the fact that Dave isn't a Teagues is what's at issue.

 

Now, if you want to talk about contradictions, we can get into the timeline ... :-)

[Demented Daisy]

@HavenHerald is on Twitter now. 

 

Edited July 20, 2014 by Demented Daisy

[Shanna Marie]

Now that I'm near the end of season 2 on my rewatch, I have to say that while the stories in season 2 weren't the greatest and some of the Troubles were rather silly, on the whole that may be the most fun and pleasant season of the series so far. We had just enough of the mythology to know how crazy things really were and to add some depth to the Trouble of the Week episodes, but they weren't yet bogged down in the mythology. All the characters were recognizable as the people I fell for in the beginning, and they were at their best. Audrey was spunky and enthusiastic without having to carry the burden of deadlines or real identities. Nathan had his issues but hadn't gone off the deep end yet. Duke was still Duke and not all lovesick or saintly. Duke and Nathan had mostly buried the hatchet and were starting to act like friends, and the three of them functioned like a trio. I know Evi wasn't popular, but her presence gave Duke his own storylines and kept him from revolving entirely around Audrey, and it kept there from being any kind of triangle among the main three because he was more focused on Evi than on Audrey. There was the downside of Chris and the triangle there, but it didn't play like a triangle because Nathan and Chris never acted like rivals and Nathan was entirely supportive of Audrey's relationship with Chris.

 

I think some of the writing may have been deeper and more complex in later episodes, and I did like how twisty it got, but it was just plain fun in season two in a way it hasn't been since then. I guess you could say there was an innocence then. I feel almost sad for these people, knowing what's to come.

[Grammaeryn]

I just finished a 4 season all episode rewatch and I found Audrey getting more boring as the seasons went along up until the whole Mara reveal. I thought the love triangle really took away from Audrey and turned her into a thing to be owned. But the cool thing is the show kinda addressed it sideways by Audrey ripping Nathan a new one by not respecting her choices at the barn and William telling Nathan she will do whatever she wants. That's why I am so psyched for Mara. She is the original and belongs to no one. Yeah, allied to William but he doesn't try to control her behavior/personality. Hmmm.. maybe I just hate Nathan?

Edited August 29, 2014 by Grammaeryn

[Snarkette]

Is it time to have the conversation yet about Mara and her right to her own body and memories even if she's evil?

[BlueJay81]

Is it time to have the conversation yet about Mara and her right to her own body and memories even if she's evil?

Yes there was a little of it on the TWOP forum at the end of the fourth season. Every time the characters go on about Audrey Parker, I think of the real Audrey Parker who is a shell of her former self now because of the Troubles, I can't see a resolution where Our Audrey just becomes Audrey Parker because Audrey Parker already exists and deserves her life back. 

I also have an issue with this memory wiping, almost imprisonment of Mara, if the original personality requires such extreme measures to be suppressed then is she worth saving?

It's still early days though and we really know nothing about Mara or her motives, or even what is really going on in Haven. Is it a dream, an illusion, a game?  William described the Troubles as a sort of 'release", what does that mean? Did certain Haven residents request to be Troubled and then things went wrong? Did they deserve the Troubles for some reason?

Edited September 4, 2014 by BlueJay81

[Shanna Marie]

While having all those other lives imposed on her body is a real violation of Mara, at the same time it gets tricky because while each of those Haven Saver lives is based on stolen memories and in a stolen body, her experiences in Haven are real, and she becomes a distinct individual. She makes friends, falls in love, even has a child, and then that person is snuffed out. It remains to be seen how present Mara has been all along -- was she unconscious all this time and has only just now been revived, was she entirely suppressed but still conscious of what was going on or did she have any influence at all on the other personalities? Was Haven Saver #1 the stolen memories plus Mara, building up to Sarah being Mara plus Haven Savers 1-N, then Lucy being Mara plus Sarah plus Haven Savers 1-N, and then Audrey being Mara plus Sarah plus Lucy plus Haven Savers 1-N? There was a distinct difference between Real Audrey and Haven Audrey, and then there are the common threads between identities, like both Sarah and Audrey falling for Nathan and using the "Why do I always fall for the shy ones?" line or Audrey knowing how to play the piano because of Lucy. The piano indicates that memories transfer somehow, so it's possible that Audrey's feelings for Nathan are because of Sarah. Or could it be that he's Mara's type? (And there's my wacky theory that Plan A for the father of the Colorado Kid that they ended up changing was reincarnation, so it was still kind of Nathan but not literally our Nathan having traveled in time.)

 

I've been thinking about the timeline (yeah, I know, bad idea if you don't want your head exploding) and trying to piece together what Real Lucy told Audrey plus what Jordan said about Lucy and the Barn plus what Arla told Audrey about James, Lucy and the Barn. Real Lucy said that Haven Lucy had told her she'd learned how the Troubles began -- did that mean she knew about Mara? She also mentioned that Lucy was on the run, and that someone had just died. I presume the death was the Colorado Kid. Jordan said that Lucy ran when it was time for the Barn. Lucy also said that it was months later when Simon came looking for Haven Lucy. And then there was apparently a gap between James going into the Barn and Lucy not letting Arla go once she learned about the murder.

 

So, piecing it together, it kind of sounds like James was killed around the time the Barn was supposed to show up (or is Mara's current driver able to summon the Barn?) and Lucy put him in to save him and told Arla she'd meet up with her to take her. Then Lucy went on the run to try to avoid the Barn. During this time, Arla's Trouble triggered and she committed murder to get a new skin. Then for whatever reason, Lucy came back to go into the Barn and wouldn't let Arla go. But that months later for Simon makes things interesting because surely he'd have noticed that the Troubles had ended, so he wouldn't still be looking for her, so was she running for months? Or was the death Lucy referred to not actually the Colorado Kid? And Lucy had to still have been around after Simon came looking for her if she killed him.

 

If Haven Lucy found out about Mara, I wonder if the "kill the one you love to end the Troubles" was misinterpreted by James. I still don't think killing Nathan would have helped. It's going to have to be Mara killing someone she loves -- making a sacrifice.

[Carrie Ann]

To wade in here a little bit, I found the body-inhabiting/identity switching aspect of this show really difficult. Audrey is the character I came to love, and so for me, it's problematic. That's Mara's body and her mind and her freedom being assaulted.

 

But I hate Mara, so there's a cognitive dissonance there.

 

So anyway, I have this theory/hope about her and it relates to all the other personas that have inhabited her body. We know that whoever Audrey/Lucy/Sarah is, she always ends up helping the Troubled. Now, maybe Agent Howard had something to do with that--by choosing her new personalities, or imbuing her with a desire/ability to help. Who knows?

 

But maybe it's something else. Something innate, and if so, then that's a part of Mara too. We know that she can create Troubles, that she enjoyed creating them with William. But my hope is that that she was sort of under his power, and under the spell of whatever rush she got from doing that. And that her true nature abhors that, and wants to help people, to atone and try to fix the problems she created. (So what we've seen of Mara is really like the Dark Willow version of her, while Audrey/Sarah/Lucy are more reflective of her real, best self.)

 

I prefer to believe that there is something true and real about Audrey, something that comes from Mara, and that when this finally shakes out, that is the person we will see. Otherwise, I have zero interest in Mara. And if the writers think that developing a different character for 3.5 seasons and then just handwaving her out of existence is good, satisfying storytelling, then I don't know what to say.

[thewhiteowl]

Shanna Marie that timeline stuff will fry your brain. Your analysis is good but it is dependent on things we don't know and aren't likely to ever know. Were the people Audrey/Lucy/whoever spoke to, telling the truth or just the truth as they thought it to be? Or even just lying?

 I don't feel bad for Mara and how her body was used, I probably should but I don't. It was her punishment, after all. At least, as far as we know, now.

[BlueJay81]

Real Lucy also mentioned a 'terrible secret' about how it all began and how it could end. I think she knew about Mara. James then mentioned how Haven Lucy told him about killing the one you love thing. James did say that when he arrived in Haven Lucy was already panicked about leaving and already knew about the solution (i.e. kill the one you love) How much did/could Lucy have loved James if she'd just met him, although they apparently worked together a bit (Real Estate) she knew him for 3 weeks. I know she is technically his mother but so is Audrey and they made a point to note that Audrey didn't love James because they'd just met.The Herald that reported the Colorado Kid's death  says that 28 May 1983 was a Thursday when it was in fact a Saturday.

Why did Lucy not want to go into the Barn if James was in there? Haven was probably being destroyed by the meteors already, did she find an alternative solution. Did she not want to leave someone behind (The Chief? perhaps) She must have had a compelling reason to risk Haven being destroyed.

When did she dig up James Cogan and take his body to the Barn to be revived? Who helped her?

 

 

 

We know that she can create Troubles, that she enjoyed creating them with William. But my hope is that that she was sort of under his power, and under the spell of whatever rush she got from doing that.

 

From the brief flashbacks of their interaction it doesn't seem like that at all to me. Mara actually seemed to be the one manipulating William to a certain extent. Even before he was pushed into the abyss, William spoke about how that was more evil than anything Mara could ever do. Audrey's description of how she'd never want to be that person, and feeling of pure evil.  It could be that the source of their power or magic is where the evil comes from.

Howard though, who we assume knows everything showed great empathy towards Audrey, does this extend to the original? Is Audrey different to the other Havensaver personalities, I remember one of the Teagues saying 'she is different this time" what did that mean?

[anstar]

I've been thinking about Dave.  He was terrified of that door in the lighthouse.  It "drew" him and he knew it.  He knew what was on the other side because he'd 'been there'. How? Wouldn't that mean the door had to have been opened before?  That brings me to the episode where the girl becomes the thing you fear the most.  (I'm having a terrible time with episode titles today, Sorry.) Dave's greatest fear was Sarah? (Maybe it was Mara)? Maybe in researching ways to keep Sarah out of the barn, they learned something about that door. But how could the door have opened in the first place when it takes four people to do it? If his first encounter with it really took place during the Sarah years, there were only the two of them.  I'm rambling here, and can't seem to tie my two ideas into one cogent thought.  

Research to keep Sarah here.  Find door in lighthouse.  Don't have all key people to open it, something happens anyway. Sarah becomes Mara, scares the bejeepers out of Dave, door opens and he gets drawn in.

Now I've got nothing.  How did he get back to our side and how did Sarah get back in the driver's seat?   Darn it.  I really hope the writers answer those two questions.  They don't even have to be related. I just want to know why Audrey (Sarah, Lucy, Whoever) is the thing Dave is most afraid of.

[BlueJay81]

I've been thinking about Dave.  He was terrified of that door in the lighthouse.  It "drew" him and he knew it.  He knew what was on the other side because he'd 'been there'. How? Wouldn't that mean the door had to have been opened before?  That brings me to the episode where the girl becomes the thing you fear the most.  (I'm having a terrible time with episode titles today, Sorry.) Dave's greatest fear was Sarah? (Maybe it was Mara)? Maybe in researching ways to keep Sarah out of the barn, they learned something about that door. But how could the door have opened in the first place when it takes four people to do it? If his first encounter with it really took place during the Sarah years, there were only the two of them.  I'm rambling here, and can't seem to tie my two ideas into one cogent thought.  

Research to keep Sarah here.  Find door in lighthouse.  Don't have all key people to open it, something happens anyway. Sarah becomes Mara, scares the bejeepers out of Dave, door opens and he gets drawn in.

Now I've got nothing.  How did he get back to our side and how did Sarah get back in the driver's seat?   Darn it.  I really hope the writers answer those two questions.  They don't even have to be related. I just want to know why Audrey (Sarah, Lucy, Whoever) is the thing Dave is most afraid of.

Dave is a bit of a mystery. I think Dave's fear of Sarah could be because he killed the Colorado Kid (In Ball and Chain he is really startled at the sight of a dead body even though in his profession in Haven he would have seen a lot of them. The writers even noted this in one of their early episode commentaries. When held up by the BGK they talked about who's turn it was to kill someone. Dave struck Vince on the back of the head when he wanted to question Arla, James described being struck on the back of his head, anyway just a theory plus both Vince and Dave were convinced that James was dead ). Vince seemed to imply that Lucy was also an option for Dave's greatest fear in that episode too. In the S3 opener I think it was hinted at that Dave at some point kidnapped Lucy, probably to prevent her from going into the barn? Both he and Vince also tried to turn Lucy back into Sarah at some point in 1983. I think Dave probably visited the other place in 1983 (most people don't remember that day at all), perhaps there are other ways to get to the place that don't necessarily involve the procedure they used this time.

Simon Crocker's diary had a photo of Sarah and Dave and one side was torn off. Who was torn out of that photo and why? It is possible that Dave has encountered Mara at some point or at least had knowledge of her.

[anstar]

I think Dave probably visited the other place in 1983 (most people don't remember that day at all), perhaps there are other ways to get to the place that don't necessarily involve the procedure they used this time.

I'm rewatching the finale right now.  Dave talks about the door Jennifer opened when they brought Lexi back as the same thing as the one in the lighthouse, so clearly there are other ways to reach the place on the other side of the void. (What they called it.)  I guess the barn somehow straddled that void, because William said that he remembered Mara screaming when "they" dragged her into it and that he vowed to rescue her, even when "they" (again, not identifying the anonymous they) banished him to that awful place; and it seems like William was able to enter the barn from his side after Nathan killed Howard. 

 

Dave seems to be the only one compelled to go through the door. William was desperate to stay out of it and Audrey and Jennifer were completely unaffected by it. Well, until it closed anyway, and Jennifer stopped breathing and Audrey became Mara. (But I think the full Audrey/Mara conversion had more to do with that last time she and William touched.)

 

I think Dave's fear of Sarah could be because he killed the Colorado Kid

I've wondered if it was Dave too. 

 

Simon Crocker's diary had a photo of Sarah and Dave and one side was torn off. Who was torn out of that photo and why?

I never even noticed that part.  I remember the picture, just not that it was torn. Huh. I'll have to watch for that more closely.

[Elsinore]

Thing is, Vince said in New Girl (I think) that they attempted to bring back Sarah after she'd gone in the Barn, not necessarily in 1983 but earlier.  With the implication that it went horribly wrong. So perhaps Dave did go to the other side to bring her back and he never mentally recovered. I think Dave and Vince's goal is to keep the Troubles going, not stopping them.

 

I think Audrey got blindsided in the confusion surrounding the opening of the Abyss. And that she's still in there. I did read an interview with Emily Rose which made it sound like

they'll sort of co exist in the fifth season.

 

I always wondered who got cut out of the Dave and Sarah picture too.

[BlueJay81]

 

Thing is, Vince said in New Girl (I think) that they attempted to bring back Sarah after she'd gone in the Barn, not necessarily in 1983 but earlier.  With the implication that it went horribly wrong. So perhaps Dave did go to the other side to bring her back and he never mentally recovered. I think Dave and Vince's goal is to keep the Troubles going, not stopping them.

Jordan said why cant we just change her back (i.e. Lexie into Audrey) and Vince said they tried it before and it's not possible. He wasn't talking about bringing her back after she's gone into the barn. That's why I think they may have tried to turn Lucy back into Sarah since both were in love with her. Don't know if this would have been with Lucy's co operation though.

 

Dave seems too cowardly to have risked the abyss to save Sarah. He may have traveled to the place before and chickened out of helping Sarah/Lucy, he may have even met Mara. I do agree that Vince and Dave seem to be largely motivated by self interest and keeping their mouths shut has kept them alive so far as they noted in Spiral.

[anstar]

Hmm.  I wonder.....

If this

That's why I think they may have tried to turn Lucy back into Sarah since both were in love with her

had something to do with,

 

he may have even met Mara.

this.

[Elsinore]

But they would have been old men by then. Vince had already married a poor man's version of Sarah (you'll see) so it would be kind of creepy to turn her back into a woman they lost thirty years prior. They're a lot of things, but they are more rational then that. Also, Lucy would never agree to be their living puppet.

 

1) Dave went to the other side, either willingly or out of devotion but he knows what lurks beneath.

 

2) Or...he went to the other side because that's where he's originally from. Being adopted and all. Wouldn't surprise me. That and he has some sort of natural born resistance to whatever is down there.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Elsinore

[anstar]

he has some sort of natural born resistance to whatever is down there.

Dave? The only one who couldn't help flinging himself into the hole? Doesn't seem like the candidate for natural resistance to anything to me. :)

 

Vince had already married a poor man's version of Sarah (you'll see)

That's intriguing. 

Also, Lucy would never agree to be their living puppet.

Based on what Vince told Jordan, yes, he was married during the Lucy years, but I never thought that trying to turn Lucy back into Sarah had anything to do with Vince or Dave (at least on her part.)  I kind of figured it had to do with trying to find some way to stay out of the barn.  Sort of like when Audrey was undergoing hypnosis to try to remember being Lucy.

 

Maybe Dave was the 1983 Jordan, running around behind Lucy with a gun insisting she kill the Colorado Kid and he got it in his head that it would work better if she was Sarah, because Sarah, as the birth mother, really loved him and when it didn't work did his own "I may as well shoot him myself", and hit CK in the back of the head.

[Elsinore]

Dave? The only one who couldn't help flinging himself into the hole? Doesn't seem like the candidate for natural resistance to anything to me. :)

 

 

 

That's intriguing. 

 

 

Based on what Vince told Jordan, yes, he was married during the Lucy years, but I never thought that trying to turn Lucy back into Sarah had anything to do with Vince or Dave (at least on her part.)  I kind of figured it had to do with trying to find some way to stay out of the barn.  Sort of like when Audrey was undergoing hypnosis to try to remember being Lucy.

 

Maybe Dave was the 1983 Jordan, running around behind Lucy with a gun insisting she kill the Colorado Kid and he got it in his head that it would work better if she was Sarah, because Sarah, as the birth mother, really loved him and when it didn't work did his own "I may as well shoot him myself", and hit CK in the back of the head.

 

Since the quote function is iffy I'll copy your entire post.

 

I cracked up reading that last paragraph. Seriously. Was CK hit in the back of the head? Because this show apparently lacks time and space to talk about him I forget how he died exactly.

[Shanna Marie]

Was CK hit in the back of the head? Because this show apparently lacks time and space to talk about him I forget how he died exactly.

I don't think they ever said in earlier seasons. We just know that Vanessa knew that the last thing he saw was an arm with the Guard tattoo on it. Then I believe James told Audrey someone hit him on the back of the head, but we don't know if that was what killed him or just knocked him out so they could kill him. I don't think they got him out of the casket to get him into the Barn, though. Vince buried the casket, but he likely buried a box full of bricks. The switch probably happened earlier, likely with the cooperation of the Chief and either Eleanor or Gloria, perhaps both (since it sounds like Gloria was the ME at the time, and that was when Eleanor was her intern/assistant).

 

Looking at the various personalities and who's in the driver's seat, I find it interesting that when William told Lexie that when she left the Bar(n), she would be who she most wanted to be. Clearly, he assumed she'd be Mara, her real self, but she came back as Audrey. That would suggest that either the Audrey personality has taken on a life of her own and was powerful enough to override Mara, perhaps because her love for those in Haven is somehow stronger or more real, or that there's some part of Mara that likes being Audrey, whether or not she'd be willing to admit that.

[Snarkette]

 

That would suggest that either the Audrey personality has taken on a life of her own and was powerful enough to override Mara, perhaps because her love for those in Haven is somehow stronger or more real, or that there's some part of Mara that likes being Audrey, whether or not she'd be willing to admit that.

I'm putting my money on the full personality integration thing. All the memories, all the loves, all the fun. 

[anstar]

Then I believe James told Audrey someone hit him on the back of the head

I knew I'd heard it somewhere.. I was pretty sure I didn't make that part up. :p 

 

Clearly, he assumed she'd be Mara, her real self, but she came back as Audrey. That would suggest that either the Audrey personality has taken on a life of her own and was powerful enough to override Mara, perhaps because her love for those in Haven is somehow stronger or more real, or that there's some part of Mara that likes being Audrey, whether or not she'd be willing to admit that.

See, I didn't even go that deep.  When she was standing at the door gathering her courage, Nathan was at the other end calling out to her.  She saw him standing in the other doorway and she heard him yell "Audrey". Then she jumped.  I just thought that kind of circumvented William's great plan and that if she'd crossed over without having heard anything, her 'true' self would have emerged.  They had just spent all that time listening for a door. Her friends were looking for her. He knew they would be. She's special.  All those things William told her and now those friends are right over there.  One is calling her "Audrey". At that moment, that's probably who I'd "most want to be".  Who I thought I was before.

Edited September 9, 2014 by anstar

[Shanna Marie]

The more we see of the situation and the more we see how Nathan deals with Audrey, the more I have to wonder what the hell the Chief was thinking in setting his son up to be the partner of the Trouble Whisperer. Even if he just knew that she comes for a while, helps, then leaves, Nathan's a bad choice for partner. Because of his childhood and background, he's got some serious emotional and psychological damage, what with the early childhood abuse, the adoption, his mother's death, his Trouble, growing up in Haven and the attitudes he faced, and the Chief's lousy parenting, and he's probably got some serious abandonment issues. He's also painfully shy and awkward unless he's in his comfort zone of work, he practices denial like it's a religion, and he has trouble letting things go. Throwing him into an intense working environment that requires a lot of trust with a beautiful woman who's prone to being sympathetic to the Troubled and who's destined to leave in under a year is pretty much a recipe for disaster. Anything the Chief knew beyond that just makes it a worse decision. If he worked with Lucy, surely he'd know about her Trouble immunity and could guess that maybe Nathan could feel her. If he knew she had to leave in the Barn to end the Troubles, it's even worse, and far worse if he knew anything about the "kill the person you love" thing.

 

Which makes me wonder if Howard was actually the one who set it all up and the Chief didn't have a choice. We know Howard arranged Dave and Jennifer's adoptions. Maybe he arranged Nathan's, as well, and part of the deal was that Nathan would have to be the one to work with the Haven Saver the next time she came to town. Since Howard apparently had access to Sarah's memories, he may have known who the father of her baby would be and managed to find that kid in the future to make sure he got into the right situation. And that may also explain why he lingered outside the Barn instead of going inside with Audrey. He may be up to something and finding some loophole in the rules to force the situation to come to a head.

 

Otherwise, much as I love the Chief, I may have to nominate him for the Darth Vader Fatherhood Award.

[icandigit]

I hope they give us more on Nathan's adoption and his mom's death.I feel like the chief was put in a situation he was ill equipped to handle.As Dave said he did the best he could. But, seeing the way Nathan turned out I think he was good father and did a good job. I'm really curious about what the chief knew about all of this. He had to know from the moment Nathan met Audrey that he could fall for her. Then his ghost is all you guys can't be in love. Maybe he was caught between a rock and a hard place. He needed Audrey and he needed Nathan to hold the town together in his absence.

[BlueJay81]

I think things were just beyond his control. I think he probably found out about Sarah and James after he was already in love with Lucy (yes i think the Chief had a thing for Lucy) and realized that things had already been set in motion and he couldn't do anything to stop it. Nathan would fall in love with Audrey no matter what he said or did.

 

The Chief seemed to know Howard quite well.He seemed to be the one to contact him to get Audrey to come back to Haven so we can assume he knew a whole lot about what was going on. Even Vince and Dave claimed not to know Howard, though it's hard to believe anything those two say.

[Shanna Marie]

The fact that Nathan is a reasonably good person who tries to do the right thing rather than being a violent serial killer, given his genetics and early life, means the Chief did a lot of things right in parenting. He just did a terrible job of preparing Nathan to be the cop who takes on the Troubles and who works with the Trouble Whisperer, mostly by not really preparing him for it and then criticizing when he didn't know the stuff he'd never been taught.

 

Perhaps the denial runs in the family and is a learned behavior rather than a genetic thing if the Chief was kind of hoping up to the last minute that Nathan wouldn't have to deal with it. From the sounds of it, he never talked to Nathan about his Trouble and never talked to him about the Troubles. Nathan didn't even know that his father believed in the Troubles until a while after Audrey arrived, which is weird if the Chief expected Nathan to follow in his footsteps. He probably taught him to swim by throwing him into the ocean.

[catray]

That would suggest that either the Audrey personality has taken on a life of her own and was powerful enough to override Mara, perhaps because her love for those in Haven is somehow stronger or more real, or that there's some part of Mara that likes being Audrey, whether or not she'd be willing to admit that.

 

 

I'm putting my money on the full personality integration thing. All the memories, all the loves, all the fun.

 

 

This is what I'm thinking as well. My speculation is that Audrey et al are the "good" aspects of Mara, sent out of the Barn to mediate the Troubles while keeping the "bad" trapped. In the end, we'll have an Audrey who is the sum of everything/one that has come before her.

Edited September 16, 2014 by catray

[Shadda2]

Perhaps the other personalities represent the more mature aspects of Mara, they have had time to do that having a sporadic 500 years or so to grow up.  Mara herself behaves much like a petulant adolescent, I'd say your basic 15 year old on a bad day.  I must apologize to all 15 year old teens out there, I'm not saying that is universally how they behave, just that her level of maturity leaves much wanting.  Not a lot of impulse control, among other things.

 

I must say I really don't have a clue what they are going for at this point.  I can only assume it is some sort of redemptive arc that will kick in in the future along with the transformative power of true love.  What ever it is, watching Mara here and now is downright painful. 

[Shanna Marie]

I'm reading a fantasy novel now in which a character is exiled/banished to another world, and he has his memory wiped and a new personality with fake memories given to him. Instead of popping in and out every generation, he's more of an unaging immortal, so every so often, he gets wiped and given new memories again to fit the current times, but each personality is still fairly similar, since they can't make him be something he fundamentally isn't. When he gets his memories restored, he not only gets his original personality back, but he gets back all the memories of all the lives, with the more recent ones actually a little stronger than the original ones (he even asks to be called by his latest personality's name). But it's an ongoing process of him integrating all the people he's been over the centuries into the person he once was, and there's good and bad coming from that.

 

That made me think of what might be going on with Mara and all her lives, though it seems like the Haven Savers were the polar opposites of Mara herself. But there still might be some integration going on, where she finds that while she has all the memories of Audrey, Lucy, Sarah, et. al., she reacts in a different way than she used to. So far, she's been so focused on finding William and finding the thinnies that she hasn't encountered a Trouble. Will she react with glee, or will there be a part of her that wants to help? Since she couldn't kill Nathan, she has some influence from her past selves, but it may take time for her to integrate everything and figure out who she is now. She really should be changed after all her experiences, once she gets past the "Whee! I'm back!" phase and maybe realizes she really is trapped in Haven.

[HeyNow]

Ah, but do we know why she didn't kill Nathan?  Maybe it's more strategy than love   (I have no idea).

[Tabbyclaw]

I don't think it's strategy because she looked pretty confused as to why she wasn't pulling the trigger. "Other personalities are creeping in" seems like the most likely scenario to me right now, but whether it's just Audrey (because she was never "properly" wiped) or all of them I don't know. I'll also point out that some of Mara's needling of Nathan about Audrey was written and delivered very similarly to Audrey's trying to drive him off when she was pretending to be Lexie, so I wonder how much of it was tormenting him just because and how much of it was trying to convince herself that she's the personality in charge.

[pcta]

I have just finished re watching season 5 to the present point. The last few episodes have been (on reflection) so bad that I had forgotten all the threads of myth laid out in the earlier episodes this season. Hopefully the show will get back to the relationships and myth set up in the earlier episodes and get rid of the soap opera Nathan/Audrey Duke/Mara of the last few.

[Tabbyclaw]

A weird little bit of probably-unintentional fridge brilliance that struck me last night. Remember the running 'thing' in a couple first-season episodes where Audrey didn't know how to dress outside work or what looked good on her? It's because she had no idea what she looked like. Any memories she had of picking out clothing were tied to a different body.

[Shanna Marie]

I rewatched part of last season (the first six episodes, then the last one, because that was all I had time for) to get ready for tonight's premiere, and I actually enjoyed it a lot more than I remembered from the initial viewing. I recall being very harsh on Emily Rose's portrayal of Mara, but I was a lot more impressed this time around. There are things that work better once you know what's really happening, and I'm impressed that you can tell just from her eyes whether she's being Audrey or Mara, and when Mara is faking Audrey having come to the surface, the eyes are the giveaway. She still has Mara eyes even while her expressions and tone are Audrey. Mara grates on me a lot less now that we know a bit more about her from what Charlotte said -- that she's lashing out in pain rather than just being a garden-variety psychopath.

 

The body-swap episodes are brilliant, with some outstanding acting. You can tell all these people have been paying attention to their co-stars to pick up all kinds of nuances. Even if you hadn't seen the promos to know what was happening and even if you were missing the context entirely and didn't know that body swaps were possible, you could tell just from the clips when Duke became Nathan and that Nathan had become Duke. Lucas Bryant had the easier job because Duke would have to have a massive reaction to being in Nathan's body and suddenly being utterly numb, and you can tell he was having way too much fun throughout being able to loosen up a lot more, for a change. But you can see Eric Balfour suddenly go from being Duke to being Nathan while he's sitting still and being quiet. You can see him just shut down.

 

Really, all of this cast is quite good and does an excellent job of working within the crazy situations. I'm rather surprised we haven't seen more of them lately in other things, given that they wrapped shooting ages ago.

 

My enthusiasm had waned somewhat from the past season, but after rewatching, I'm suddenly quite excited for the new episodes.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

I haven't had a chance to truly decompress from just finishing a binge-watch of the entire series, for the first time, but that series finale ending though.  Wow.  I mean, wow.  Still left with just 'wow'.  Disney had to have been supremely jealous about the note hit on how sugary sweetly happy & sappy this series ended on. 

I will state that I was/am fully behind 'Naudrey', and happy endings in general - but that final series of events that included Dwight getting his daughter back, Duke's ghost happily going to the afterlife after guiding Dwight along, Shatoan turning an absolutely mushy pushover in the end, the Troubles gone forever, and last but not least, a version of 'Naudrey'+baby!James for their happily ever after... that's flipping insanity.  And why couldn't/didn't Audrey go back as Audrey?  Just to give ER one final chance to play yet another version of her character??  I feel like I'm suffering a sweetness-overdose high or something at how perfectly everything ended up, for just about everyone.  The series finale pretty much summed up the whole series' overarching plot... "love conquers all".   Only instead of using a spoonful of sugar to get their point across, they backed up a fleet of dump trucks and filled a reservoir with the stuff.

Makes one wonder if they pitched the overall theme and thoughts for the ending of the series to SK in the very beginning, he would have given his OK and rights to make a show based off his story?  Hard to equate what I usually see in a SK movie or read in one of his books, and get what was done with Haven.   It just feels like between the end of S3 and start of S4, the feel of the series took a hard wrong turn and went from being a fairly well put-together sci-fi episodic mystery drama & then became a serialized "only a fairy-tale ending can save us now" affair.

[MarkHB]

There was a creative team switch after S3, when Ernst and Dunn left.  My hunch is that the solution to the "Who is Audrey" question was similar to what was originally planned, but I'm sure there were great differences in how it was executed.

[aliferous85]

On 31-5-2014 at 11:17 AM, Elsinore said:

I still think that's the best scene in that episode.

 

You just woke up in a vacant storage room and your furniture and your boyfriend don't exist here, but they better not have taken the new car as well.

I love that scene too. And dandy Vince and Dave. And the entire first half of that episode. Did not care for Dr. Nathan whatsoever. Dr Douchebag indeed.

 

It always just reminds me that the writers did not ever look at a calendar when writing the show.

Because obviously enough time passes between episodes for people to form relationships (Audrey/Chris in Audrey Parkers Day Off), have birthdays (Jennifer had one, in early season 4), buy cars etc ...

But I think we're supposed to believe the entire series took place over the course of a year or so, not five.

I watched the series finale only two weeks ago. I don't know why, but it took me a year and a half to do so. I just kept putting it off and then I just knew I was ready to say goodbye.

I'm also not sure why Audrey couldn't come back. I mean, people are going to look funny at Paige for a long time because (to them) she'll just be another Entity version. Perhaps there would be freaking out that the Troubles didn't go away after all. And I'm glad I was right about the pregnancy hinting. If they'd gone on, they'd have ended it on an announcement. I don't believe Nathan really knew, though.