S07.E10: Ride or Die

[Dee]

In what world is Mickey not a terrible person?

He's a racist, homophobic, violent career criminal who scams what he wants from whoever he wants even if it means betraying the Southside code he holds so dear.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Dee

[LisaS848]

Geesh!  No one said Ian's problems were Mickey's fault or that he's doing better "because of Mickey's absence."  And Thanks for recapping, but I'm pretty sure I watched the show.  And Mickey and Ian BOTH did plenty to contribute to the dysfunction for whatever reason.  That's all I'm saying. 

[WhosThatGirl]

Yeah I don't think I'm going to say my point anymore as it's going around in circles. I've been here before, I remember this tree. ;)

[STFUFrank]

I don't think anyone is saying Mickey isn't flawed but he showed a tremendous amount of growth over time. Indeed he was homophobic and he held on to that even while bottoming for Ian. But that facade starts to drop and it became obvious when Mickey went to that gay bar in Boystown to look for Ian. I believe it was a bartender who made a remark that Mickey denied then he looked around and he realized he was in a place where it was okay to be open unlike at home where he'd get the shit beat out of him. It was even obvious in the way Mickey kissed Ian in that same club. 

 

Once he he came out and fought his dad at Evgeny's christening party he let go of the homophobia and became a different person once he came to terms with being gay himself. That doesn't mean he became an upstanding citizen. He didn't. He still fell into old habits. But where Ian was concerned the old Mickey grew into a more empathetic partner who really did want the best for Ian when it came to helping Ian through his episodes and encouraging him to take his meds that Ian in the end said he didn't want to do and even bagged on Mickey for being too normal. 

[dezi]

56 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

At that point, he and Ian aren't together because he's in Juvie. He gets out and Ian gets him a job at the store and again, they continue to be two kind of/sort of friends, who have sex. Frank walks in on them and Mickey tries to kill Frank but changes his mind and deliberately gets himself arrested again. So once again, he and Ian are apart. Then Ian starts banging grandpa. Mickey gets out and all of a sudden Ian starts whining about wanting more. Going on about grandpa buying him things and not being afraid to kiss him in public. And what do you know, Mickey attempts to give him what he wants which results in his father catching them and having Mickey be raped. 

Then despite it being clear that Mickey has little choice in marrying Svetlana, Ian whines about that, goes to join the army and loses his damn mind along the way. And after much whining from him about Mickey choosing him, Mickey admits to being gay in public and they attempt to be together. But then Ian refuses to take his meds, loses his mind some more, resents their relationship being too "normal" and then later Mickey tries to kill Sammie and ends up in prison again. So what did Mickey do to Ian so much in their relationship? 

Yeah, they were just sort of friends, who have sex. That’s why self-loathing Mickey felt the need to gay-bash anyone else Ian had sex with. And stalk Ian on his date. That might be where Ian got the idea that there was something more.

Ian finally summoned enough self-respect to stop being Mickey’s dirty secret and left. While he was away he developed bipolar disorder (because even while you’re throwing a tantrum about a fictional character it is not okay to be derogatory about mental illness). Then Mickey tracked him down and tried to pretend that the reasons Ian left didn’t exist, so that he could continue to get what he wanted out of him. When Ian reminded him that he still wasn’t prepared to live in the closet with him, Mickey tried to keep things as easy for himself as possible, with no consideration of what Ian wanted or needed. Until he realised Ian wasn’t his fuck puppet anymore and that he was about to lose him. Only then did Mickey make the decision to step out of the closet to be with Ian.

And other than some physical and emotional damage, Mickey didn’t do much to Ian.

[40Love]

1 hour ago, truthaboutluv said:

Once again, speaking for myself, I have never romanticized Ian and Mickey's relationship and always noted that there was never going to be a happily ever after with them and to be fair, I don't think other people have either. I do remember Mickey and Ian's relationship very well and while it was never going to end with them happy and healthy and in love, what was annoying was, particularly when Ian moved on with Caleb, the not so subtle suggestions that it was difficult for him to be in a normal and healthy relationship because being with Mickey had screwed him up so badly. THAT was the issue for me personally - it was the notion that Ian was so messed up from his relationship with Mickey and in my opinion, Ian and Mickey were unhealthy because they were BOTH troubled individuals from a troubled background. 

I agree with your whole post. But, I must confess, right or wrong... I absolutely and totally romanticize Ian and Mickey's relationship. But, I think my fascination with them as a couple has more to do with the actors than the script. Their chemistry and acting choices (mainly Noel Fisher) are right on point.... like when Ian brushed the hair from Mickey's neck so he could kiss it right before they started having sex. Noel's expression really sold the moment... that it wasn't just about sex but that Mickey really missed Ian and is totally in love with him. That upside - down kiss and hope that he would see Ian again. When he asked Ian if "this is goodbye" right before Ian threw his stuff into the car and climbed in. Noel's look of contained glee was amazing. 

So yeah... I really like them together and really wished they had a normal relationship... without all the dysfunction. But, then it would be "Shameless". Of course, Ian running away with Mickey will end in chaos and separation... Ian will likely sacrifice himself so Mickey can narrowly escape (to keep the door open for his eventual return)... and Fiona will have to use her windfall of cash to pay for a good lawyer to get him off.  

Edited December 6, 2016 by 40Love

[stagmania]

17 minutes ago, dezi said:

Ian finally summoned enough self-respect to stop being Mickey’s dirty secret and left.

Or: Mickey got raped at gunpoint and then forced to have a kid and marry the prostitute who was used to rape him, and all Ian could see was his own broken heart so he offered him absolutely no patience or understanding and abandoned him at the worst moment of his life. IMO, both of these takes on that particular part of this story are true.

My point is not that either one of them are wrong or right, but that the things they went through together were intense and traumatic and way too much for two damaged kids to handle. They both made bad choices and failed to communicate and hurt each other, but the feelings they had for each other were real, and so they tried and tried again. It was a complicated and dysfunctional love story with no villains that unfortunately came to an abrupt and unfitting end due to real world interference.

So why oversimplify it?  I don't get that impulse, but I prefer complex stories and layered characters.

[WhosThatGirl]

4 minutes ago, stagmania said:

Or: Mickey got raped at gunpoint and then forced to have a kid and marry the prostitute who was used to rape him, and all Ian could see was his own broken heart so he offered him absolutely no patience or understanding and abandoned him at the worst moment of his life. IMO, both of these takes on that particular part of this story are true.

My point is not that either one of them are wrong or right, but that the things they went through together were intense and traumatic and way too much for two damaged kids to handle. They both made bad choices and failed to communicate and hurt each other, but the feelings they had for each other were real, and so they tried and tried again. It was a complicated and dysfunctional love story with no villains that unfortunately came to an abrupt and unfitting end due to real world interference.

So why oversimplify it?  I don't get that impulse, but I prefer complex stories and layered characters.

This. 

[LisaS848]

5 minutes ago, stagmania said:

My point is not that either one of them are wrong or right, but that the things they went through together were intense and traumatic and way too much for two damaged kids to handle. They both made bad choices and failed to communicate and hurt each other, but the feelings they had for each other were real, and so they tried and tried again. It was a complicated and dysfunctional love story with no villains that unfortunately came to an abrupt and unfitting end due to real world interference.

I agree. 

I will add that I'm glad to see Noel Fisher back as Mickey and I'm interested to see where the story goes.

[Dee]

7 minutes ago, stagmania said:

Or: Mickey got raped at gunpoint and then forced to have a kid and marry the prostitute who was used to rape him, and all Ian could see was his own broken heart so he offered him absolutely no patience or understanding and abandoned him at the worst moment of his life.

Ian went to find Mickey a few days after the rape and Mickey absolutely refused to acknowledge his presence. Ian then backed off and kept tabs on Mickey for weeks after that, via Mandy, who was way more casual about her own brother being pistol whipped than her best friend was.

When Ian learned about the wedding, he sought Mickey out again; only to be kicked in the teeth, literally, for all of his concern.

[dezi]

15 minutes ago, stagmania said:

Or: Mickey got raped at gunpoint and then forced to have a kid and marry the prostitute who was used to rape him, and all Ian could see was his own broken heart so he offered him absolutely no patience or understanding and abandoned him at the worst moment of his life. IMO, both of these takes on that particular part of this story are true.

My point is not that either one of them are wrong or right, but that the things they went through together were intense and traumatic and way too much for two damaged kids to handle. They both made bad choices and failed to communicate and hurt each other, but the feelings they had for each other were real, and so they tried and tried again. It was a complicated and dysfunctional love story with no villains that unfortunately came to an abrupt and unfitting end due to real world interference.

So why oversimplify it?  I don't get that impulse, but I prefer complex stories and layered characters.

Ian's purpose is not to serve Mickey's needs. Ian has his own trauma, even though he doesn't dwell on it and take it out on other people. He spent too much time giving Mickey patience and understanding, at his own expense. It was about time he put himself first. 

Pointing out the reasons Mickey is not a saint may be unpopular and a rare occurrence, but it is not oversimplification.

Edited December 6, 2016 by dezi

[stagmania]

3 minutes ago, dezi said:

Ian's purpose is not to serve Mickey's needs. Ian has his own trauma, even though he doesn't dwell on it and take it out on other people. He spent too much time giving Mickey patience and understanding, at his own expense. It was about time he put himself first. 

Pointing out the reasons Mickey is not a saint may be a rare occurrence but it is not oversimplification.

Like I said, that's a valid way to see it from Ian's perspective. I was pointing out that it looks pretty different from Mickey's, and both can be true.

There is not a single person in this thread who claimed Mickey is a saint, so no, it's not a rare occurrence to recognize his flaws.

[STFUFrank]

21 minutes ago, Dee said:

Ian went to find Mickey a few days after the rape and Mickey absolutely refused to acknowledge his presence. Ian then backed off and kept tabs on Mickey for weeks after that, via Mandy, who was way more casual about her own brother being pistol whipped than her best friend was.

When Ian learned about the wedding, he sought Mickey out again; only to be kicked in the teeth, literally, for all of his concern.

I'd say that Mickey was still in his own messed up way dealing with being raped in front of Ian and rather acknowledge that he was vulnerable he resorted to the only way he knew how to deal with things. That doesn't make it right at all but he didn't know how to communicate. 

Id also say Mickey felt as if he had no choice but to marry Svetlana because I can imagine if he hadn't then Mickey's dad could have harmed Ian. But by the time of the christening he didn't want to lose Ian and wanted to prove that his feelings were real. 

By no means was Mickey perfect. Everything about the way he was raised and acted shows that he was a delinquent but by S5 once he was fully out and living as a gay man he became a better partner to Ian but he never fully shed his ways just how he approached his life with Ian. Mickey was flawed as hell but he still managed to show growth. 

Edited December 6, 2016 by TotalHellion

[Broderbits]

4 hours ago, stagmania said:

Cameron Monaghan has been on Gotham for several years.

He was in 4 episodes of Gotham last year, that's it. Maybe that show is bringing his character back from the dead, IDK. Plenty of actors have more than 1 project in a year though. it's just a matter of scheduling.

[stagmania]

7 minutes ago, Broderbits said:

He was in 4 episodes of Gotham last year, that's it. Maybe that show is bringing his character back from the dead, IDK. Plenty of actors have more than 1 project in a year though. it's just a matter of scheduling.

Ah yes, two separate appearances in different seasons, but the same calendar year. They announced that he's returning again a couple months back.

[mirrorrim]

On 12/5/2016 at 8:57 PM, dezi said:

Fiona did not say any of the things about Mickey that she is being accused of. She did not once blame him for any of Ian’s past or current issues. She merely pointed out that, due to his fugitive status, Mickey was no good for Ian’s future. Fiona is not a Mickey/Gallavich fangirl. She is Ian’s sister. Of course she is going to try to dissuade him from getting back together with his fugitive ex. I really can’t see what else she would reasonably be expected to say.

Thank you. I was really confused by everyone's statements and thought I'd missed something. She was talking about Mickey being a fugitive. Yeah, I'd say going on the run with one would ruin your accomplishments. 

[Emily Thrace]

On 2016-12-04 at 9:39 PM, sazzat said:

Frank and Monica slurring it up around town just makes me physically avert my head from the screen. Pointless.

Actually I felt like Frank and Monica had a point this week. Their wild spree was stupid and took up too much airtime,  but it did what Frank and Monica should always do on this show. Which help show why the kids make the choices they made this week. Mostly with Lip and Ian but Fiona a bit too. Monica is a romantic and an optimist who will grasp at any straw that offers her love and doesn't think about the consequences. Just like Ian did with Mickey. Frank is an addict who will turn himself inside out to get fix. Just like Lip who actually made a very different choice thankfully. Even Fiona who has always had to be the steady one is going to make the choice that offers financial gain because god knows someone in that family has to. 

[dezi]

15 hours ago, stagmania said:

Like I said, that's a valid way to see it from Ian's perspective. I was pointing out that it looks pretty different from Mickey's, and both can be true.

There is not a single person in this thread who claimed Mickey is a saint, so no, it's not a rare occurrence to recognize his flaws.

I didn't say anything about anyone in this thread calling Mickey a saint. But pointing out his flaws is mostly met with bullying and intimidation across the internet. So yes, it is a rare occurrence.

[Dee]

It's kind of gross, but very in keeping with Shameless ethos, that Debbie has feelings for a guy who has a considerable nest egg and does, almost, everything she says. 

Tacky as it is, her relationship with Neil, almost, justifies the awful 'Frank helps Debbie land a Sugar Daddy' subplot the writers couldn't get enough of last season.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Dee

[whiporee]

It does fall into Deb's maternal and nurturing instincts that have been on display since this whole thing began, though. Also gives her some degree of control, which she's been wanting for at least half the show's run. I find it squicky, too, but I don't think it breaks her character the way raping Matt or the constant bleating at Fiona did. 

[Tatum]

On 12/7/2016 at 6:50 AM, whiporee said:

It does fall into Deb's maternal and nurturing instincts that have been on display since this whole thing began, though. Also gives her some degree of control, which she's been wanting for at least half the show's run. I find it squicky, too, but I don't think it breaks her character the way raping Matt or the constant bleating at Fiona did. 

I agree with this. Fiona, Lip, and Ian have always been attracted to whoever is going to cause them the most heartache and drama, but Debbie just seems like she has always wanted someone she can count on. She doesn't have to be physically attracted to him or excited by him- she just wants someone who is going to be where he says he will be and also financially support her. Really, this is an extremely ideal situation for her with her current circumstances. I mean, it would have been better for her to concentrate on school and look at college as a way out of her dysfunctional upbringing, rather than swapping families via a teen pregnancy, but you know, kids and instant gratification and all. Now that she is saddled with a child, hooking up with someone who will support her financially and won't beat her, cheat on her, lie to her, leave her, or in some way hurt or abuse her is really best case scenario. And she brings something to the table too- seems like she is committed to taking care of him and isn't taking advantage of him, although she's pretty bossy and unyielding to his sister.  But really, hers is the most functional relationship since they turned Caleb into a gaslighting jerk.

[Dee]

On some level it's hard to fault Debbie for playing hardball with Sierra.

Sierra has a kid of her own and a ton of her own baggage, including a creepily codependent relationship with Debbie's alcoholic brother.

With DCFS and Derek's family hovering, inconsistent employment and Neil & Franny's day to day care already on her plate, Sierra's issues are just one more headache for Debbie.

[Tatum]

I might feel she had a leg to stand on there if she did not immediately allow Monica to move in after Sierra was booted.

[Dee]

To Debbie's credit, she told Monica (and Frank) they could only stay temporarily, tried to be firm with them about violating curfew, and stuck to her guns about kicking them out once they endangered Neil.

[DrSpaceman]

Continuing my month long binge catching up on the whole show. 

Lip is following his fathers path of addiction and alcoholism and not doing well.

Ian is now following his mom's path with Mickey and its not going to end well either

Glad Fiona sold that place for the $70-80K profit.  Its one thing to try and make a small business a future for you to end the endless hassle of working for others.  Its another to be stupid and not take a 100% profit in less than a month.  I hope she doesn't change her mind in the next episode, like she did about 3 times in buying the place.