S23.E14: Week 11

[McManda]

17 minutes ago, Andie1 said:

People can dance around the obvious all they want, but the fact is they invited an Indy driver on to the show, who was convinced to come on the show by another Indy driver who won in part because the vote was open to Brazil his native country.  We know this because Helio's parents were on via satellite, he was emotional to see them on screen they told him they were voting for him and loved him.

Not sure Helio's parents are indicative of an entire country's population, but okay.

Also, did Helio really convince James to do anything regarding the show? James said he was approached after taping the IndyCar episode of Celebrity Family Fued (on which he appeared with Helio), but I assume it was more because the casting director saw he was good looking, charming, smart, and had a compelling story. I figured any involvement Helio had in his decision to participate was along the lines of "do it, it's a lot of work but it's fun and a great experience, you won't regret it" (same thing Florence Henderson told Maureen McCormick, by the way) and not "do it, you'll totally win  because they promise IndyCar and Canada have your back". It just worked out for tptb that they had a connection to a former winner they they could bring back for another storyline.

Quote

Did you even watch the Rumba? It was sexy.  Mark had his hand on her hip, there was a deep dip of long looks into each others eyes.  It was far more sexy than a routine you would get in a Rumba class, it had to show sexuality and it did.

Chemistry and what is sexy is subjective, but even still I'm going by what Mark says he intended for that dance. He was assigned that style and that song and he worried about being torn apart by people for creating something overly sexy for a 17 year old to the point where he actively tried for young and fun. 

And it's not like DWTS is trying to tone anything down even now. Jana and Gleb literally started a dance in bed and ended in a shower. It's just that now they've added enough fluff of non-ballroom dances that they can avoid giving minors anything that might upset Standards and Practices. That wasn't the case in Shawn's first season.

Edited November 26, 2016 by McManda

[Andie1]

30 minutes ago, McManda said:

Chemistry and what is sexy is subjective, but even still I'm going by what Mark says he intended for that dance. He was assigned that style and that song and he worried about being torn apart by people for creating something overly sexy for a 17 year old to the point where he actively tried for young and fun. 

And it's not like DWTS is trying to tone anything down

They didn't tone down the music, the lyrics for that song are anything but fun and young. It's about a relationship that is purely sexual.  There is a lot of music out there that would have been less sexual. But this dance was as sexy as what he did with Kristie Yamaguchi, he danced with her to Say..a totally different vibe.. He can say fun and young, but he wanted to convey sexuality for the very reason that Shawn mentioned...that the young girls would swoon. 

Edited November 26, 2016 by Andie1

[Andie1]

32 minutes ago, McManda said:

Also, did Helio really convince James to do anything regarding the show? 

Yes. 

http://nanaimonewsnow.com/article/507626/canadian-indycar-driver-hinchcliffe-taking-spin-dancing-stars

"I spoke to Helio at length before I committed to doing the show," Hinchcliffe said. "Having a friend and colleague who had been through it was a huge benefit to me. He thoroughly enjoyed it, so much he went back a second time.

"He warned me about the amount of work, but said that it's going to be an awful lot of fun."

[Andie1]

51 minutes ago, McManda said:

"do it, you'll totally win  because they promise IndyCar and Canada have your back".

Nobody but pre-determined winners get those sort of assurances.  He was hoping that a natural fan base would be there, but he sure was disappointed in how Canada was shut out. 

http://www.torontosun.com/2016/11/25/james-hinchcliffe-reflects-on-dancing-with-the-stars-experience

As the lone Canadian star on DWTS this season, did the feel the love of entire country?

It was huge. It was unfortunate for the first time Canadians weren’t allowed to vote. I wish that they had been. I think that it could have been a big boost because all the response on social media was so positive. I definitely felt a lot of love from back home.

Why couldn’t Canadians vote?

It had something to do with the level of rights that the network bought for the show. I guess to have the right to be involved in the voting is an extra charge. While the networks at home were willing to pay to air it, they weren’t willing to pay to play so to speak.

My note: So ABC just got greedy this season. How convenient.  Pathetic network. 

Edited November 26, 2016 by Andie1

[McManda]

"At length" to me means they had a discussion about the time commitment, the effort level, what to expect going in, the workload, how to deal with the stress and the physicality and the mentality of it all... things like that. It doesn't really imply (to me) that Helio ever suggested that the reason James should do the show was because DWTS would help him out by opening up voting to his native Canada. 

I'm also confused by this train of discussion - when was it ever verified that the reason Helio won was because they opened voting to Brazil?

Is it semi sketchy that they allowed international voting for Bindi and the reneged on it for others? Sure, but it's hardly the sketchiest thing they've done and ultimately what does it matter? What future glory does Laurie have for winning the MBT that James and Calvin don't? IMHO ... nothing worth noting.

And in regards to James's statements on the situation - what is he supposed to say, especially to a Canadian newspaper? That it d didn't matter to him that Canada couldn't vote? Of course not. I think there's valid  concern for disappointment, but at the same time I'm not sure I can trust his third-hand knowledge of a situation that he's explaining to a biased party. 

And if ABC is getting greedy, I'm sure it's got more to do with the financial balance beam they're walking (that gets narrower and narrower with age and overall declining ratings) to keep the show on the air. In the end it's money, not the ultimate winner, that dictates how the show runs. Though fwiw, they could probably trim some of the production costs by downgrading the weekly allowance for arts and staffing and the troupe, but that's me being pretty. Clearly they see a return on investment there that I don't.

[Andie1]

14 minutes ago, McManda said:

That Helio ever suggested that the reason James should do the show was because DWTS would help him out by opening up voting to his native Canada.

Who ever suggested this? All I said was Helio had the luxury of getting votes from his country back in 2007 despite winning Indy 500 Helio was not an American household name either..  James did not get the privilege of votes from Canada.  

As far as James telling his reasons, I believe he was disappointed that ABC was not fair regardless of which paper he spoke to. He needed a lot of convincing to do it in the first place because he was so inexperienced at dancing, so if he knew that Canada was shut out before hand he would never have agreed to doing the show. Someone else from the Indy series could take the fall. 

Edited November 26, 2016 by Andie1

[McManda]

11 minutes ago, Andie1 said:

Who ever suggested this? All I said was Helio had the luxury of getting votes from his country..  James did not get that privilege

It's what read as implied when you said: "People can dance around the obvious all they want, but the fact is they invited an Indy driver on to the show, who was convinced to come on the show by another Indy driver who won in part because the vote was open to Brazil his native country."

IE: James did the show because Helio convinced him to because Helio had a good experience and won because Brazil could vote for him and presumably told James he could expect the same.

Otherwise what weight does Brazil being able to vote hold in that argument? We'd already long ago established that this is apparently one of the few times international voting had been closed off, so it wasn't just that Helio was afforded a luxury James was not.

Also, Helio did the show in season five. That was ... 2007? So much has changed on the show since then not including international voting, so I'm not sure that's the best comparison for fairness. Helio also didn't have to go a jazz, contemporary, or trio dance.

Edited November 26, 2016 by McManda

[Andie1]

42 minutes ago, Andie1 said:

That Helio ever suggested that the reason James should do the show was because DWTS would help him out by opening up voting to his native Canada.

I am going to repeat your quote because what you are implying here is that DWTS would help a contestant by opening up the voting to Canada. Huh..Prior to this season, it was a given that Canadians voted on the phone and on facebook. I have been voting by phone since season 10.  So what do they have to open up..now.  It is very clear ABC just decided to shakedown the Canadian network this season. And it stinks because by being greedy, they dismissed James as an also ran before the show started. Comparing that treatment to Bindi who was getting welcomed votes from Australia, there is simply a lack of respect for him and it is very likely that they figured they already had their winner before the show started. Why they did this now is a mystery. Unless ABC is trying to somehow shame the Canadian network into paying for voting that they never had to before, I do not see how this endears Canadians into watching the show in the future.

In 2007 Helio got votes from Brazil. Brazilians were on the ABC message board. They were funny and wrote with Brazilian accents. And they voted.  Yes, 2007 was different, but it was also hugely competitive with Mel B who could dance well but was often at risk of going home, and Marie Osmond who got millions of votes for so so dancing  and was never in the bottom. And, In 2007 the show was so much more popular that it is now. 

Edited November 26, 2016 by Andie1

[katha]

All this talk about Shawn made me go rewatch season 8 and I'm always surprised by that because I liked her so much, but: Not only was she not the best dancer in that season (clearly Gilles), IMO she was not even a particularly good dancer until very late into the season when Mark had gotten her to a level where she was capable of executing memorable routines to a reasonable standard. For me she's practically one big meh until week 7 and the cha-cha. And I know this, but I'm shocked again and again because I always manage to convince myself I like her earlier dances better than I actually do until I watch them again...

[vibeology]

44 minutes ago, Andie1 said:

I am going to repeat your quote because what you are implying here is that DWTS would help a contestant by opening up the voting to Canada. Huh..Prior to this season, it was a given that Canadians voted on the phone and on facebook. I have been voting by phone since season 10.  So what do they have to open up..now.  It is very clear ABC just decided to shakedown the Canadian network this season. And it stinks because by being greedy, they dismissed James as an also ran before the show started. Comparing that treatment to Bindi who was getting welcomed votes from Australia, there is simply a lack of respect for him and it is very likely that they figured they already had their winner before the show started. Why they did this now is a mystery. Unless ABC is trying to somehow shame the Canadian network into paying for voting that they never had to before, I do not see how this endears Canadians into watching the show in the future.

This isn't some big conspiracy. Every thing about this lines up with reality. This is the first time, since voting was originally opened up to Canada that CTV isn't airing the show live on Monday on CTV1 or CTV2. It seems very likely that they made the decision to cut off voting to Canada because they were using that as leverage to try to force CTV's hand. It seems far more likely James's got caught up in some inside baseball (which is what the answer you quoted from James seems to suggest) than the show was trying to fix the win for Laurie.

Also, I have a hard time believing they cut off he Canadian vote before the season began because they somehow knew that was key to getting Laurie a win. I don't remember anyone calling James as a final 2 contestant before any of the dancing had started. Laurie, sure. Marilu, lots of people. Calvin because there's a strong football tradition on this show but almost no one knew who James was and no one assumed he'd be a finalist. The producers of this show are manipulative but they can't actually see the future and they had no way of knowing a mildly successful but not a household name Indy driver would make the finals when they made the initial decision to close the vote. 

[Zoeey]

ABC actually approached Mario Andretti initially. He declined citing commitments with Firestone (who turned round and said they'll release him to do the show) before James stepped up.

http://www.racer.com/indycar/item/136606-indycar-mario-andretti-on-dwts

I heard rumours that Mario's grandson, Marco (who would of been hilarious because he looks so awkward round any woman that isn't his fiancee) and this year's Indy 500 champion Alex Rossi (who attended several episodes) were also approached. 

Regarding the Brazilian vote, you have to remember that back in 2007 when Helio was on there was no need for VPNs because there was no geolocking when creating accounts. I was going to my school library in the UK to vote for him (and Mel and Cameron) from an account I made claiming I lived at IMS. IndyCar also had an official fan forum at the time and Helio was usually on it once a week thanking and encouraging the series' fans to vote.

I don't remember Jane Seymore or Mel getting much attention from the British media for being on the show that year until the day after the finals then it was just to say that Mel lost to Helio. I don't think Katherine Jenkins got much attention beside column inches on the Daily Mail website either.

To be honest, with it being an Olympic year, if the athlete can dance (like Laurie and Louis Smith in the British version), they're more than likely going to win unless they have two left feet (like Ryan and, to a lesser extent, Greg Rutherford) then they'll finish higher than they probably deserved. This could explain the ratings, why watch (or vote) when there's this Olympian can dance?

[Happy Belly]

i am thrilled Laurie won. Not because she's a gold medalist Olympian. Not because she's adorable. I am thrilled because she's from Jersey. So am I. Jersey girls have each other's backs. ;-)

[realdancemom]

9 hours ago, Andie1 said:

As far as James telling his reasons, I believe he was disappointed that ABC was not fair regardless of which paper he spoke to. He needed a lot of convincing to do it in the first place because he was so inexperienced at dancing, so if he knew that Canada was shut out before hand he would never have agreed to doing the show. Someone else from the Indy series could take the fall. 

Thanks for linking the article.  It was an interesting read.  However, I did read it differently.  From the article, I can't tell if James knew that Canada couldn't vote before he signed.  He was hesitant to do DWTS because he was inexperienced at dancing.  But I think it was the crash that caused him to have a new perspective on life.  He said, "Any fear of looking silly on television is quickly forgotten when you realize how lucky you are.'"

He's a competitor so of course, he's disappointed that he didn't win.  However, he never thought that he would even make it that far.   I'm sure that once he knew Laurie was in the competition, he felt that she was going to win anyway.  

Also, it sounds like ABC was trying to get more money by having Canadian networks pay for the rights to vote.  The Canadian stations were the ones that chose not to do that.  ABC probably did that or will do that to other international networks in the future.  Their first goal is to make a profit.  That is why they are trying to appeal to a younger demographic because they do bring in more advertising dollars.  

[OnceSane]

Stay on topic aka what happened in the episode.  

[RedFiat]

I am so glad James and Sharna were on this season, but I wish they were on when people  could vote for them. Voter suppression for a few bucks to the network, seems pretty shitty since  Sharna has a great chance at an Emmy nom.  I would put in the Viennese Waltz, and The Freestyle for sure, maybe even Team Past. What a great line up of beautiful dances she has to chose from.   

Edited November 28, 2016 by RedFiat

[boyznkatz]

Sharna's dances aren't really all that memorable IMO. The only one I remember was the Mary Poppins one. And Alice in Wonderland with Andy Dick.

You're assuming that all Canadians would have voted for James, anyway. That's not something that anyone could possibly know.

[RedFiat]

Not assuming anything.  I Just would've like the opportunity to vote, but ABC decided that we weren't worth it.   I thought James' VW  and FS was the best of any season. I've watched them all. 

Edited November 28, 2016 by RedFiat

[realdancemom]

I don't know how the Emmys choose choreographers.  If I had to pick three for Sharna and James, I would choose their VW, Freestyle, and their trio jive.  However, I thought Mark would get nominated for Sadie's dances.  It's not because she danced well, but he was really creative during their season.  I don't know if the Emmys already chose for last season but I liked a lot of his dances with Paige and she did dance them well. 

Edited November 28, 2016 by realdancemom

[BW Manilowe]

1 hour ago, realdancemom said:

I don't know how the Emmys choose choreographers.  If I had to pick three for Sharna and James, I would choose their VW, Freestyle, and their trio jive.  However, I thought Mark would get nominated for Sadie's dances.  It's not because she danced well, but he was really creative during their season.  I don't know if the Emmys already chose for last season but I liked a lot of his dances with Paige and she did dance them well. 

The Emmys for last season's programs/series were on in September. The Emmys for this season will be on either late this coming summer or early this coming fall (2017); they haven't announced the date yet. They're usually on close to when the next TV season starts.

[RedFiat]

On 11/26/2016 at 2:43 AM, vibeology said:

This isn't some big conspiracy. Every thing about this lines up with reality. This is the first time, since voting was originally opened up to Canada that CTV isn't airing the show live on Monday on CTV1 or CTV2. It seems very likely that they made the decision to cut off voting to Canada because they were using that as leverage to try to force CTV's hand. It seems far more likely James's got caught up in some inside baseball (which is what the answer you quoted from James seems to suggest) than the show was trying to fix the win for Laurie.

Nobody is saying its a "big conspiracy" what is significant is that for the first time in the history of the show there are people who wanted to vote and they couldn't because DWTS deliberately decided this season was the time to shut out anyone north of the border, after 22 seasons of allowing it. That does feed the idea that they already had their winner regardless of how well or how poorly James did, so they just didn't give a damn.  Because of this, I definitely won't bother next season. I am not a fan of ABC and all their shitty programming of Bachelors and Disney specials. It makes me want to puke that they keep pulling DWTS into that mess.  Not since season 12 have I cared much about it, I've been bored stiff knowing that certain people have been pre-ordained from the cast announcement.  

[PBGamer89]

3 hours ago, RedFiat said:

Nobody is saying its a "big conspiracy" what is significant is that for the first time in the history of the show there are people who wanted to vote and they couldn't because DWTS deliberately decided this season was the time to shut out anyone north of the border, after 22 seasons of allowing it. That does feed the idea that they already had their winner regardless of how well or how poorly James did, so they just didn't give a damn.  Because of this, I definitely won't bother next season. I am not a fan of ABC and all their shitty programming of Bachelors and Disney specials. It makes me want to puke that they keep pulling DWTS into that mess.  Not since season 12 have I cared much about it, I've been bored stiff knowing that certain people have been pre-ordained from the cast announcement.  

Aside from being with Derek, I don't think ANYONE called Bindi winning at the cast announcement. From then until even a few weeks into the season, it was "Nick has this".

I don't think Nyle was "pre-ordained" at the cast announcement. He was handsome and recently famous, but aside from that, being deaf we had no idea he could dance in any way, (even if I think he didn't deserve to win).

11 hours ago, RedFiat said:

I am so glad James and Sharna were on this season, but I wish they were on when people  could vote for them. Voter suppression for a few bucks to the network, seems pretty shitty since  Sharna has a great chance at an Emmy nom.  I would put in the Viennese Waltz, and The Freestyle for sure, maybe even Team Past. What a great line up of beautiful dances she has to chose from.   

Sharna won't get nominated. If Mark couldn't even get any nominations for some of his dances with Paige, or his Contemporary with Alexa, Sharna doesn't stand a chance, IMO. Her choreo for James was good, but it doesn't stack up when you put it against all choreography possible for nominations. 

Mark never got nominated for any dances with Paige or Sadie, arguably two of his most creative seasons recently, Sharna won't and I'd be incredibly surprised if she did.

Edited November 29, 2016 by PBGamer89

[RedFiat]

Yeah, I wasn't the only one who called Bindi winning. Anyone who gets unprecedented praise for a first clunky jive while dancing with Derek is pre-ordained. The crying for dead dad was relentless. As for Nick Carter, he never was as good a dancer as his annoying brother, but Backstreet Boys was a throw back for a demographic that is actually younger than who watches and votes. So Nick got further on good choreography, especially the Downton Abbey piece.  

The best was the season where the producers really had their thumb on the scale. Nyle was not a great dancer and never corrected anything, but he was a handsome guy who women swooned over and he was deaf. The perfect young man for the demographic to just mother and lust after.  I almost got taken in by all the fawning until I realized that Marlee Matlin never got this kind adulation.   

Nominations are only there if the pro submits them. Mark got nominated for dances with Chelsea Kane, maybe he gave up submitting after that.  Dance is subjective of course, so If Sharna submits some dances the VW and the FS are definitely as worthy as any dances anyone has choreographed on dwts.  The way she got James and Jenna to become the characters on the VW is as compelling as any dance I've seen. And it was well danced. A big plus. Not only that, but it was lit and shot perfectly.  

Edited November 29, 2016 by RedFiat

[boyznkatz]

Yeah, I agree Bindi was the winner from the start, the way they pimped her. The show has been predictable since Season 14, when Donald Driver was a pleasant surprise win. Was anyone surprised by Bindi, Rumer, Meryl, Alfonso or Nyle winning? I guess Pickler was a surprise win over Zendaya, but they threw out all the online votes, so that one definitely has an asterisk by it. She might have won anyway, but we'll never know.

[kitcloudkicker]

6 hours ago, RedFiat said:

Nominations are only there if the pro submits them. Mark got nominated for dances with Chelsea Kane, maybe he gave up submitting after that.

Mark submitted. He was bummed he didn't get the nomination, there were tweets about it. There's a nomination event where they show a montage of submitted pieces, I remember Kristyn Burtt giving a recap of the last one on Twitter. They almost all submit, the last one had submissions from Val, Keo, Mark, Peta, Sharna, probably more. 

ETA: Found the link. All the pros are listed on submissions

http://www.dancedishwithkb.com/single-post/2016/08/28/A-PartialLook-Inside-The-Emmys-Choreography-Submissions

Edited November 29, 2016 by kitcloudkicker

[OnceSane]

Back on topic, please.