S12.E06: Celebrating the Life of Asa Fox

[DittyDotDot]

50 minutes ago, bearcatfan said:

I guess I'm in the minority in that I am very sympathetic to Mary. I hate that Dean is hurt by this, but I get her position. I really do.

Personally, I'm sympathetic to all of them. I understand why Mary needs some space; I understand why it's hurting Dean; and I understand why Sam is able to set aside his own feelings right now. I think they all have valid points of view, myself. Which is the way it should be, IMO.

[Aeryn13]

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I think Dean is better now that he knows Mary plans on coming back. She likely thought that was an obvious conclusion, 

Is it, though? When she left, she told them she basically didn`t feel like she belongs, they were strangers to her and she misses the kids she remembers and being in heaven with them. Sure, she said she just needed some time but I got the impression she just wanted to convince herself of that. When Cas told her the feeling of belonging still hasn`t set in, after years for him, it clearly struck a nerve. And seeing her now, I don`t think she made any progress. She still feels lost. Yes, she said no to dying right then and there but I think it would be a very wise choice for Dean, Sam AND Mary to not get their hopes up at this point. 

And I do still believe they are going overboard with trying to make her as un-mother-y as possible to avoid slotting her in that role, I guess. Even in her situation it would strike me as normal to show some curiosity about her sons and ask them one or two questions about their lifes. I actually find it pretty ridiculous that there hasn`t been a single scene in that vein where she takes the initiative.   

[pixelcat]

Just popped in to say this episode made me happy!  And with the problems going on at work this entire week, all the way up to 6pm on a Friday, that's saying something. 

i'll probably have more to add later after I watch this again, but for now thank you Supernatural for not disappointing me!

[rue721]

1 hour ago, goldy said:

I do get what she's going through I'm not totally heartless, and I still love her as a character and feel like she is a good person, but I also see Dean's POV, her not calling them but driving all the way to Canada for a stranger got to him, and at this point I felt sympathy for him.

I get where Dean is coming from, but imo he was just complaining because he was hurt/upset, not because his complaint actually made any sense. I mean, is he really going to be jealous of (dead) Asa and literally everyone Mary interacts with other than them? Because she doesn't cease to exist when she's not with them (anymore), so that's going to be a lot of people to be jealous of.

I think Dean is just generally upset so pretty much anything was going to set him off. But imo Mary wasn't actually doing anything wrong or even especially hurtful.

24 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Is it, though? When she left, she told them she basically didn`t feel like she belongs, they were strangers to her and she misses the kids she remembers and being in heaven with them.

She flat out told them she was coming back, so I think it was meant to be pretty obvious. She tried to make it obvious, anyway. I don't blame Dean for being dubious, because he was devastated and not really in an optimistic frame of mind. But his doubt was despite what she told them, not because of it.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Haven't read all the previous comments, (as per usual - I don't want to spoil myself too much!).  I liked this one!  

• Jodi-o was Practically Perfect In Every Way.  Was afraid she was going to buy it there when she was possessed, but my girl lives!  I liked the scene of the guys showing up at Jodi's house too.  It wouldn't have bothered me at all if that had been longer.  
• I liked Mary's little smirk at Billie at the end.  But honestly, I think Mary lost some points with me when she was able to resist Sam's dimples and not immediately go home with them.  Like, seriously...he might have even thrown the puppy eyes in, but I was distracted by the dimples.
• I liked the case - all the hunters working together.  I liked the twins, and I'm glad Asa's mother has grandkids!  And now they have a grandmother.  Awww.  (Asa remind anyone a bit of Dean in the early years there with all the women?)  
• Gotta confess, I'm a little on the fence on how Bucky was ostracized at the end.  Can hunters really afford to cast out one of their own like that?  I got the impression they were only really mad that he lied about Asa's death.  Now, don't get me wrong: lying about how Asa died was not the right thing to do.  But it was an accident.  And even if he'd admitted it was an accident from the start, the demon Jay El (sp?) (is that a Superman reference?) probably would have shown up to take the rest out anyway - he was in the area and that many hunters together was just too meaty (heh - get it?  as in meatsuits?) to resist.  

Ah..oh well.  This is going to be one I'm going to enjoy watching again.  

[Mick Lady]

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Personally, I'm sympathetic to all of them. I understand why Mary needs some space; I understand why it's hurting Dean; and I understand why Sam is able to set aside his own feelings right now. I think they all have valid points of view, myself. Which is the way it should be, IMO.

Not really commenting so much on this post, but I just wanted to say, Dot, what's up with you? Lately, your posts have been kicking ass! You've really added some fresh insight for me, and I truly appreciate that! Keep it up Dot!

[SueB]

14 hours ago, Demented Daisy said:

Meh.  Sorry, but I saw Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them last night and -- well, this was awful in comparison.  The plot contrivances alone made the episode nearly unwatchable.  Apart from the lack of anti-possession charms/tattoos, is Billie their Reaper stalker now?  Does she reap everyone who dies around Sam and Dean?  Lame.  And what was the point of Asa's friend killing him accidentally?  I don't see what it added to the story other than "shock for the sake of shock".  I thought that was over now that Carver's no longer running the show.

I have to rewatch later because my husband missed it.  Maybe it'll improve.

 

I adore Supernatural but it'll never match up to JK Rowling's literary talent.  I'm not saying you shouldn't have high standards but... she's responsible for a world wide phenomenon and singularly got a generation reading books.  Supernatural is a CW TV show.  Just saying.

[SueB]

It's funny, pre-season there was concern that the impact to Mary of being brought back to life was going to be swept under the rug.  I'd say that worry should be laid to rest now.  

[rue721]

I really liked this one! It reminded me of House on Haunted Hill -- in a good way. In fact, I think they could have gone even further with that! I even liked Asa's mother because she made me think of those cheesy old haunted house kind of movies.

14 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Anyway, I liked the beginning a lot, but once the case kicked up I kinda lost interest. Too much running around like chickens with their heads cut off for my taste. They're supposed to be hunters, are they not? And too much melodrama in the end. Can we not just have some fun anymore? 

I was wondering if his witch mother would turn out to be Rowena? ;)

I kinda like how they've bizarroed this relationship. It used to be Dean stuck in the middle between Sam and John, now it's Sam stuck in the middle of Dean and Mary. Not the same, of course, because Dean and Mary aren't butting heads or anything, but... .

I agree that the last third of the episode or so was a little blah compared to the earlier bits. I wish that the possession stuff had been more like when Meg possessed Sam and tortured Jo. This demon wasn't that interesting, which was too bad.

Anyway, I think Dean and Mary are butting heads, just in a different way than  Sam and John did. Dean and Mary are apparently pretty nonconfrontational and tend to run cold rather than hot when they're upset, unlike Sam and John, so the interactions are different. I also can't really imagine either Sam or John being at odds over what is putting Dean and Mary at odds now. I mean, Sam and John seemed to both basically let it all hang out, emotionally.  But Dean and Mary both seem to be having the issue of withdrawing because they're sad and they're afraid of being rejected. I think that that all comes down to different personalities, though. When Dean went out to have some air, I thought that was comparable to Sam blowing up. In terms of how upset it meant he was and how he was feeling, I mean.

Speaking of when Dean went out to get some air - did anyone else find it awkward that he was just standing there taking snorts from his flask? It was super clear imo that the direction should have been for him to have a cigarette, and it made the scene feel a little off/contrived to me that he wasn't smoking. It felt very "the network says we can't have Our Hero be a smoker." It felt especially awkward IMO because instead of having Dean do something fairly normal, like go outside for a smoke break, the show had him standing in the driveway, drinking alone from his secret flask. Eh. But in general, I think that realistically, Dean would be a smoker. This is the same man who was reminding Sam that they should be planning to die with their boots on. And he just seems like someone who would, I dunno. Maybe nobody else even thinks about this, though (lol).

13 hours ago, Wynne88 said:

When Dean told Sam “  I wonder if tying that first victim in the house to the ceiling was a direct stab at the Winchesters?  

Interesting thought! I bet you're right. Didn't Sam wake up when Jessica was killed because she bled into him before catching fire?

Edited November 19, 2016 by rue721
correcting autocorrect and fat fingers

[DittyDotDot]

30 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Anyway, I think Dean and Mary are butting heads, just in a different way than  Sam and John did.

That's basically what I meant. Apparently I left off the word "literally"...does take on a slightly different meaning without it. I'll go edit.

[Mick Lady]

29 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I really liked this one! It reminded me of House on Haunted Hill -- in a good way. In fact, I think they could have gone even further with that! I even liked Asa's mother because she made me think of those cheesy old haunted house kind of movies.

I agree that the last third of the episode or so was a little blah compared to the earlier bits. I wish that the possession stuff had been more like when Meg possessed Sam and tortured Jo. This demon wasn't that interesting, which was too bad.

Anyway, I think Dean and Mary are butting heads, just in a different way than  Sam and John did. Dean and Mary are apparently pretty nonconfrontational and tend to run cold rather than hot when they're upset, unlike Sam and John, so the interactions are different. I also can't really imagine either Sam or John being at odds over what is putting Dean and Mary at odds now. I mean, Sam and John seemed to both basically let it all hang out, emotionally.  But Dean and Mary both seem to be having the issue of withdrawing because they're sad and they're afraid of being rejected. I think that that all comes down to different personalities, though. When Dean went out to have some air, I thought that was comparable to Sam blowing up. I mean in terms of how upset it meant he was and how he was feeling, I mean.

Speaking of when Dean went out to get some air - did anyone else find it awkward that he was just standing there taking snorts from his flask? It was super clear imo that the direction should have been for him to have a cigarette, and it made the scene feel a little off/contrived to me that he wasn't smoking. It felt very "the network says we can't have Our Hero be a smoker." It felt especially awkward IMO because instead of having Dean do something fairly normal, like go outside for a smoke break, the show had him standing in the driveway, drinking alone from his secret flask. Eh. But in general, I think that realistically, Dean would be a smoker. This is the same man who was reminding Sam that they should be planning to die with their boots on. And he just seems like someone who would, I dunno. Maybe nobody else even thinks about this, though (lol).

Interesting thought! I bet you're right. Didn't Sam wake up when Jessica was killed because she bled into him before catching fire?

Oh good God Rue! House On Haunted Hill creeped me out as a kid! Now I won't be able to sleep!

[SueB]

25 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I really liked this one! It reminded me of House on Haunted Hill -- in a good way. In fact, I think they could have gone even further with that! I even liked Asa's mother because she made me think of those cheesy old haunted house kind of movies.

I agree that the last third of the episode or so was a little blah compared to the earlier bits. I wish that the possession stuff had been more like when Meg possessed Sam and tortured Jo. This demon wasn't that interesting, which was too bad.

Anyway, I think Dean and Mary are butting heads, just in a different way than  Sam and John did. Dean and Mary are apparently pretty nonconfrontational and tend to run cold rather than hot when they're upset, unlike Sam and John, so the interactions are different. I also can't really imagine either Sam or John being at odds over what is putting Dean and Mary at odds now. I mean, Sam and John seemed to both basically let it all hang out, emotionally.  But Dean and Mary both seem to be having the issue of withdrawing because they're sad and they're afraid of being rejected. I think that that all comes down to different personalities, though. When Dean went out to have some air, I thought that was comparable to Sam blowing up. I mean in terms of how upset it meant he was and how he was feeling, I mean.

Speaking of when Dean went out to get some air - did anyone else find it awkward that he was just standing there taking snorts from his flask? It was super clear imo that the direction should have been for him to have a cigarette, and it made the scene feel a little off/contrived to me that he wasn't smoking. It felt very "the network says we can't have Our Hero be a smoker." It felt especially awkward IMO because instead of having Dean do something fairly normal, like go outside for a smoke break, the show had him standing in the driveway, drinking alone from his secret flask. Eh. But in general, I think that realistically, Dean would be a smoker. This is the same man who was reminding Sam that they should be planning to die with their boots on. And he just seems like someone who would, I dunno. Maybe nobody else even thinks about this, though (lol).

Interesting thought! I bet you're right. Didn't Sam wake up when Jessica was killed because she bled into him before catching fire?

I didn't find it awkward (re: non smoking) because he just wanted to get away. Getting fresh air to clear your mind does help IMO. But I'm not a smoker so maybe the association isn't natural for me. 

I think a reasonable explanation for why Dean doesn't smoke is that it costs too much when they were younger and would affect his ability to run. Smoking decreases lung capacity. If your life depended on running the hell away from a monster, I'm not sure why you'd smoke. Plus when John was around he may have made it a rule.  There's a lot of canon support that says John trained them very physically.  According to the Surgeon General almost no one takes up smoking after 25 (average age is  13).  Dean was pretty much obeying John's rules through age 26. And while I'm certain he smoked weed behind his Dad's back, picking up a cigarette habit would be really hard to hide.  

Now clearly they drink a ton.  But when Dean was going thru his alcoholic arc in S7, Sam made a comment about drinking on the job which implied it's not usually done.   Alcohol kills your liver, impairs judgement and motor function (depending on amount and tolerance).  But unless you've gotten cirrhosis, most young-ish hunters should be able to recover from most physical effects of drinking by the next day. Of course the crap food doesn't help either  I recall Benny telling Dean he slowed down after returning from Purgatory.    

Bottom line: I think Dean's upbringing, being tight for money, and need for speed are reasonable explanations for why Dean doesn't smoke. 

[mertensia]

I'm guessing the demon's name was Jael, or possibly Jaelle (shades of Darkover) as someone added a bit of a vowel to the end of the name.

Yeah, I have a lot of sympathy for Mary. And Dean. And Sam. 

I suspect once she grounds herself into today she'll return to the boys. Frankly, I'm glad they're being slow and realistic about this.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, rue721 said:

It felt very "the network says we can't have Our Hero be a smoker." It felt especially awkward IMO because instead of having Dean do something fairly normal, like go outside for a smoke break, the show had him standing in the driveway, drinking alone from his secret flask. Eh. But in general, I think that realistically, Dean would be a smoker

Dean going out for a nip from a flask is completely normal for him. He's carried a flask pretty much the entire show.

[rue721]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

Bottom line: I think Dean's upbringing, being tight for money, and need for speed are reasonable explanations for why Dean doesn't smoke. 

Oh, so thinking of this in the context of hunting gave me an idea!

BTW, I'm not a smoker, either. I have a breathing problem that cigars and cigarettes aggravate, so while I'll have one once in a very rare while, it's uncomfortable for me to smoke very much or very often. Both my parents are pretty heavy smokers, though (and have been since way before I was born), so it seems normal and even kind of homey to me. I also have a big soft spot for smokers. When someone lights up, it's immediately endearing to me. YMMV!

So, what I think is interesting is about traveling with smokers, especially people who smoke a lot, is that they will inevitably find other smokers. You can be in the most desolate little hellhole, and I guarantee that if you stay the night, they will find at least one smoking buddy before you leave. In the context of the show and hunters (and especially this "network" thing the show is pushing right now), I think that that would be interesting in terms of information gathering.

I mean, when people are standing around having a cigarette, they generally don't have anything to do but chat. YMMV, but that's been my experience. And there's a sort of instant camaraderie that comes from sharing a smoke break, too. I mean, not a TON. But it's comparable to breaking bread together ime. So people tend to be pretty open and friendly in that context. It's actually great for gathering info.

As a real life example, I guess...I made my parents come along with me on this cross-country roadtrip in 2013, and since we didn't really have any clue about where we were going and were basically just wondering around (it ended up taking us about a month to get from LA to DC), we were constantly going places off recommendations from whatever their fellow smokers had said all throughout that trip. Like, if we found a place to stay first, we would inevitably get recommendations for where to eat from whoever happened to be having a cigarette outside of the hotel at the same time as my parents were. Or if we were eating somewhere, we would inevitably get recommendations for some sight we had to see from whoever happened to be smoking with them outside of the restaurant. I mean, literally ALL THE TIME. They shared all kinds of weirdo stories, too. There was this one guy at this one motel on that same trip who got my parents all fired up to go to Glacier National Park and was telling some kind of story about these birds or eagles or something? I don't remember it anymore, I just remember my parents coming back to the room all excited, talking about this weird bird story, and me being incredulous. Anyway, I tried to get them to the park, but my car couldn't handle that much time in the Rockies and we had to keep heading East instead. (Oh, and BTW my introvert self would usually be in the room or wherever in the meantime, doing my research on where to go/eat/stay online).

But yeah, so I'm just imagining smoking as a tool in the hunter's arsenal and it's kind of cracking me up. But also thinking, wow, that would be super useful for them!

I mean, people really do share useful and interesting information when they're standing around having a cigarette together, and hunters could totally do casual and easy interrogations on the road that way! LOL

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Dean going out for a nip from a flask is completely normal for him. He's carried a flask pretty much the entire show.

I mean, I know he does that (although I also think it's weird that he carries a flask, but whatever. YMMV). Usually he's not literally standing there as though he's having a cigarette but with no cigarette, though. Like, why was he actually outside instead of just in the other room or even in the bathroom? And why was he standing out in the driveway in particular if he didn't need a hard surface to rub the cigarette out on? It's not that he COULDN'T have gone out in the driveway to be a weirdo closet alcoholic taking snorts from his warm-ass pocket flask, it just would have been more realistic/plausible IMO if he'd chosen to go outside in particular and to the driveway in front of the house in particular to have a cigarette instead. Especially given that he wanted a minute to compose himself, which would also have been a good time to be like, "OK, I need a cigarette. See y'all in like 8 minutes."

And also, it is so weird to me that it would somehow be more socially acceptable (in the world of television) for someone to be standing there all alone sneaking liquor from a flask than for him to just go outside and have a cigarette like a normal human being. Also, if I were upset like he seemed upset, I would have bummed a cigarette. And I smoke like 1x/year, if that.

But then again, I guess I always just pictured Dean as a smoker because he had that fancy lighter for a long time, isn't health conscious, and is kind of fidgety. I mean, I don't have ~deep~ reasons for it, he just has the "smoker" cues. Same thing here. I don't have any ~deep~ reasons, the scene just had all the "smoke break" cues yet wasn't a smoke break, and I found it disconcerting.

Also, now that I'm thinking about it, I kind of think it would have been funny for someone to go outside for a smoke and run into a Reaper, which is an idea that has National Anti-Smoking Campaign all over it...only to find out that he's the only one there who is DEFINITELY going to live, since all those people who didn't feel the need for a cigarette are now locked in Hell House with a vicious demon. LOL. That's kind of hilarious.

Edited November 19, 2016 by rue721

[Demented Daisy]

8 hours ago, SueB said:

I adore Supernatural but it'll never match up to JK Rowling's literary talent.  I'm not saying you shouldn't have high standards but... she's responsible for a world wide phenomenon and singularly got a generation reading books.  Supernatural is a CW TV show.  Just saying.

*sigh*  Have I ever compared SPN to her writing before?  In all the times I've talked about Harry Potter, have I ever said that SPN pales in comparison?  Ignore my first sentence and this is what I wrote:

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The plot contrivances alone made the episode nearly unwatchable.  Apart from the lack of anti-possession charms/tattoos, is Billie their Reaper stalker now?  Does she reap everyone who dies around Sam and Dean?  Lame.  And what was the point of Asa's friend killing him accidentally?  I don't see what it added to the story other than "shock for the sake of shock".  I thought that was over now that Carver's no longer running the show.

I have to rewatch later because my husband missed it.  Maybe it'll improve.

 

Does that sound like I'm truly comparing Supernatural and anything JK Rowling has written?  Or any of the Harry Potter movies?

ETA  The more I think about it, the more annoyed I get.  Why shouldn't I expect excellence from a "CW TV show"?  Are you implying that they are incapable of doing better than this episode?  Because I highly, highly disagree.  Just last season, the writing in Safe House was miles ahead of this dreck.  Same with Don't Call Me Shurley.  

Yeah, I didn't like this episode because I know that the show can do better.  I've been unhappy with the writing for several episodes this season -- that started long before I saw Fantastic Beasts.  

Just saying.

Edited November 19, 2016 by Demented Daisy

[Aeryn13]

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I get where Dean is coming from, but imo he was just complaining because he was hurt/upset, not because his complaint actually made any sense. I mean, is he really going to be jealous of (dead) Asa and literally everyone Mary interacts with other than them? Because she doesn't cease to exist when she's not with them (anymore), so that's going to be a lot of people to be jealous of.

I don`t think it`s as literal as that. To me, his comment made a lot of sense because Mary apparently makes an effort for everyone/everything from her past (she mentioned basically a memory tour) but her sons. How low on her priorities list are they? That`s what Dean expressed IMO and I was thinking it right along with him at this point. It was a very valid remark in my eyes.

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She flat out told them she was coming back, so I think it was meant to be pretty obvious.

When I think what someone is saying comes across as so weak they can`t even say it convincingly in the moment, I tend to not put any stock in it also. 

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Gotta confess, I'm a little on the fence on how Bucky was ostracized at the end.  Can hunters really afford to cast out one of their own like that? 

There seem to be quite a few out there still and the ranks keep getting replenished apparently. I wouldn`t have bought forgiveness from this bunch. Some hunters I`ve seen on the show would have probably formed a lynch mob right then and there. 

The problem was IMO that Bucky proved untrustworthy. Personally, I would add stupid because why not simply say there was an accident during the hunt and Asa died? Noone was there, it`s not like that wouldn`t be believable and everyone would go "hm, sounds fishy, fess up, it was because you argued and pushed him". Pfft. A dangerous profession and one participant gets tragically killed. Would easily fly. No, Bucky makes a convoluted production out of it to hide the "evidence". 

[Bessie]

25 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I don`t think it`s as literal as that. To me, his comment made a lot of sense because Mary apparently makes an effort for everyone/everything from her past (she mentioned basically a memory tour) but her sons. How low on her priorities list are they? That`s what Dean expressed IMO and I was thinking it right along with him at this point. It was a very valid remark in my eyes.

I don't think she has a priority list. At this point, she's probably just hanging on, trying to get her bearings and keep from letting out a primal scream every two seconds so she doesn't end up being carted off to the looney bin. I doubt she's has the mental and emotional capacity to put Dean's (extremely valid) feelings at the forefront of her mind. I hope this indicates that the writers are developing her as an autonomous character.

Think about it this way. I know you watch the show for Dean so imagine his and Sam's positions with Mary reversed. Would you still have negative feelings about Mary's actions?  Or would you think Sam was behaving like a selfish, special snowflake who was being a jackass for forcing poor Dean to be the peacekeeper?

[Aeryn13]

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Think about it this way. I know you watch the show for Dean so imagine his and Sam's positions with Mary reversed. Would you still have negative feelings about Mary's actions?  Or would you think Sam was behaving like a selfish, special snowflake who was being a jackass for forcing poor Dean to be the peacekeeper?

I actually include Sam in thinking Mary acts kind of amazingly self-centered right now and he would have a right to be angry at her too. It weirds me out that he is sooooo understanding of her and shows no real anger or hurt himself. I get that he doesn`t have any pre-conceived notion of Mary from actual previous memories so it might be easier for him to accept what he gets with her but at this point even Spock would show more emotional investment. By making the dichotomy between the brothers so stark: Dean is sooo emotional and Sam is sooo calm, it flattens Sam`s reaction IMO.

If the reactions were reversed, I`d be unhappy that Dean falls into the same patterns as a kid when he had to quell his wants and wishes to keep a parent happy who often acts like a cold fish in my eyes, sorry to say. My anger back then was at John mainly and I`m not happy with Mary now. What bugged me with Sam in the last few episodes was hounding Dean on how to handle his emotions "properly" but that really is a problem unrelated to their parents. 

So yes, my patience has kinda runneth out with Mary right now and I would feel this way if Dean was pushing his hurt down or showing it. And if Sam were to have enough, I`d say good for him, too. Whether Dean then felt compelled to mediate or not.

[mertensia]

Character growth might not always be pretty but it is necessary. This is what they're all doing at the moment and I find it worthwhile. Because otherwise they become one-note characters. So let the characters grow and change as they do unless you like they stagnant.

[Aeryn13]

I said before that I don`t like stagnant characters but I fail to see character growth or change here either. So very much disagreed on that point. If growth happens, sure, it isn`t always pretty or enjoyable to watch but this whole storyline with Mary so far IMO is really without purpose. They brought her back and then had no clue what to do and to me it shows.    

[Bessie]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

It weirds me out that he is sooooo understanding of her and shows no real anger or hurt himself. 

I think Sam has clearly shown hurt, but not anger. If he has any anger toward Mary, as the peacekeeper, he's not in a position to indulge in that right now. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Fwiw, I'm an ex-smoker. And sometimes also have the need to walk away from an argument (before I say or do something the other party will regret - heh.)  And while I still feel the urge to smoke sometimes (most notably when around others who are smoking, or when stressed like Dean was after seeing Mary) I also resist the urge.  Because I know if I start up again, I would probably keep going and I don't want to be a life-long smoker - mostly for the reasons @SueB noted above (decreased lung capacity especially, because I like to hike.  Also the cost is outrageous, and I'd rather have a new pair of shoes.  ;)  ).  So, personally, I would also totally walk outside to 'get a breath of fresh air' (1.because I just like being outside and 2.because another room in someone's house, who I didn't really know and didn't feel at home, would feel claustrophobic)...and probably take a drink with me if I wasn't carrying a trusty flask.  

I also understand both sides of the Mary/Dean debate.  Although, I'm probably a little more sympathetic toward Dean, just because we know him better since he's been on the show longer.  I think @Aeryn13 has some good points about Dean's complaints, and he was right to an extent.  Yeah, I get that maybe Mary has to work things out on her own and it's weird for her being back and her 'sons' are two HUGE grown men who she doesn't know or recognize and how does one come to grips with that?  On the other other (Dean) hand, she said she was tracing John's steps using his journal.  Now, those steps would have been John tracking down the yellow eyed demon.  Those boys LIVED that, and like Dean said, there's a lot she could have just asked them.  But she didn't.  I can't remember the exact words, but apparently, she barely even texted them since she left.  How about a phone call to ask for clarification about something in the journal?  I'm sure it would have been nice for the boys to hear her voice, but as @Bessie said, she's not even thinking of that, of giving them that, because she is so deep in her own head space that she can't even be that considerate.  And it's probably easier for her to be less than considerate since she's having such a hard time accepting them as her sons (being grown, not even so much being hunters.)  

Sam's reactions do not weird me out at all.  Neither do I think they are flattened when I watch the emotions flicker across his face.  I think he is hurt as well, and trying to hold it together as much as Mary - but maybe a little more hopeful than she is, because that's who Sam is.  Or what @Bessie just wrote while I was typing all this up.  :)

6 minutes ago, Bessie said:

I think Sam has clearly shown hurt, but not anger. If he has any anger toward Mary, as the peacekeeper, he's not in a position to indulge in that right now. 

I think a bit of anger slipped out when he lost it with the religious mom a couple episodes ago.  But I agree with the rest.  

[mertensia]

38 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I said before that I don`t like stagnant characters but I fail to see character growth or change here either.

Quote

Quote

 

 

Well, no. I didn't think you would. But I see it.

[Aeryn13]

I think they want to portray Sam as this ultimately zen-guy who lets everything slide ever. Which is a hard character trait to pull off. Watson on Elementary is someone I would put forward as a successful example. It came from both her job (early on) as well as her personality. That is not how Sam was introduced, though, and while I get change, I don`t get a complete overhaul. 

Back when Dean was the peacekeeper, it wasn`t because he was that zen-guy. And I don`t really buy it from Sam now either. To me it really does play as not natural character progression but the writers wanting each brother to have starkly opposite reactions to another parent. Back with John, that was the case as well but it came about more naturally why each brother did have those opposite responses. And why they really couldn`t meet in the middle for the longest time.

Here with Mary, it`s more like chess. One takes white so the other has to take black. I would find it far more believable now that they would occasionally take grey or swap white and black here and there. Interactions with Mary aren`t as openly antagonistic as they were with John so there doesn`t have to be such a clear-cut peacekeeper. There would have been room for Sam to express more than "everything is super-fine, I understand". 

Quote

Well, no. I didn't think you would. But I see it.

Different perspectives on the show and characters, nothing wrong with that. 

Edited November 19, 2016 by Aeryn13

[DittyDotDot]

7 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Sam's reactions do not weird me out at all.  Neither do I think they are flattened when I watch the emotions flicker across his face.  I think he is hurt as well, and trying to hold it together as much as Mary - but maybe a little more hopeful than she is, because that's who Sam is.  

Yeah, I think Sam is doing what Dean used to do with John. Dean clearly had issues with John--as Sam clearly has with Mary--but he generally would push them aside in order to maintain peace. Sam's doing the same thing with Mary right now. He just wants her to come back so much he's setting aside his own issues in order to accomplish that. I think it's going to come back and bite him in the ass, though, because he's building a relationship with her on a sort of dishonest foundation and will probably come crashing down at some point; just like it did with Dean and John. 

In many ways, Dean's approach is actually a more healthy approach. He's just being honest with how he feels and there's nothing wrong with that. 

[Bessie]

4 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Back when Dean was the peacekeeper, it wasn`t because he was that zen-guy. And I don`t really buy it from Sam now either. To me it really does play as not natural character progression but the writers wanting each brother to have starkly opposite reactions to another parent.

 

5 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

There would have been room for Sam to express more than "everything is super-fine, I understand". 

Maybe because you don't like Sam, you don't pay attention to him when he's onscreen?  I know I don't pay much attention when characters I dislike are the focus.  But he never expressed that everything is super fine and he hasn't been very zen. He has very clearly expressed emotional turmoil. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

7 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

He just wants her to come back so much he's setting aside his own issues in order to accomplish that.

Thank you!  That's exactly his actions and reactions make me think also.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Maybe because you don't like Sam, you don't pay attention to him when he's onscreen?  I know I don't pay much attention when characters I dislike are the focus.  But he never expressed that everything is super fine and he hasn't been very zen. He has very clearly expressed emotional turmoil. 

Oh, I got that he is hurt. He was actually the more fretful in that final scene when Billie made that offer to Mary, going by facial reactions that is. Not that Dean wasn`t alarmed but Sam`s face showed a lot more fear and surprise right there. I also got the "wut? wut?" surprise and the flinch in that final scene in ep 3 when Mary first left the bunker.  

But what the character is allowed to express verbally, the message is always "I understand you completely". And Sam is a verbal person. Dean is the more tactile one, the one to express himself physically. So I guess what I`m saying is that the dialogue they`ve given the character in that regard doesn`t strike me as wholly true and a tad too simplistic. And the reason IMO they have done this is because they wanted to differentiate between the brothers more, not because that is totally what Sam would say.       

Ironically I`m actually trying to stick up here for the character because of my annoyance with how the Mary-character is handled. I knew they would crumble the "myth" of her once she came back because anything else would have been completely unrealistic but boy, did they really, really go for it. 

Edited November 19, 2016 by Aeryn13

[Bessie]

20 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

But what the character is allowed to express verbally, the message is always "I understand you completely". And Sam is a verbal person. Dean is the more tactile one, the one to express himself physically. So I guess what I`m saying is that the dialogue they`ve given the character in that regard doesn`t strike me as wholly true and a tad too simplistic. 

Sam is trying to get Dean to understand Mary's POV, while not alienating or angering him. Which is sort of what peacekeepers do. They try not to take sides. 

He hasn't yet tried to get Mary to understand Dean's POV for a couple of reasons. He doesn't know her so he's tiptoeing around her. With Dean he's on solid ground; with Mary he probably feels like he's on quicksand.

Also, I'm not sure if Mary has any understanding of this Dean and the depth of his feelings toward her. If Dean were to blowup at Mary, I don't doubt that Sam would attempt to clue her in on Dean's emotions. 

Edited November 19, 2016 by Bessie

[DittyDotDot]

5 minutes ago, Bessie said:

Sam is trying to get Dean to understand Mary's POV, while not alienating or angering him. Which is sort of what peacekeepers do. They try not to take sides. 

He hasn't yet tried to get Mary to understand Dean's POV for a couple of reasons. He doesn't know her so he's tiptoeing around her. With Dean he's on solid ground; with Mary he probably feels like he's on quicksand. Also, I'm not sure if Mary has any understanding of this Dean and the depth of his feelings toward her. If Dean were to blowup at Mary, I don't doubt that Sam would attempt to clue her in on Dean's emotions. 

Sam did try to get Mary to see Dean's POV in this episode: "He's just... We just got you back, and he's just scared that we're going to lose you again, that because we're hunters you're gonna walk away."

[Aeryn13]

Quote

He hasn't yet tried to get Mary to understand Dean's POV for a couple of reasons. 

I`m talking more about his own POV. Apart from one scene of him trying to welcome her in the bunker in episode 2, he has never spoken to her about his feelings, wants or hurts. And within the family unit, that is just not Sam to me. She must have read John`s journal which most certainly had remarks about Sam`s rebellious nature and Dean being always accomodating wondered if John got their sons` names mixed up or something. 

[DittyDotDot]

BTW, I've been kinda thinking about Grampy Campbell and wondering if Sam and Dean have told Mary he was brought back from the dead too? 

Edited November 19, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[Bessie]

7 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Sam did try to get Mary to see Dean's POV in this episode: "He's just... We just got you back, and he's just scared that we're going to lose you again, that because we're hunters you're gonna walk away."

How did I overlook that?? Thanks!

[DittyDotDot]

17 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I`m talking more about his own POV. Apart from one scene of him trying to welcome her in the bunker in episode 2, he has never spoken to her about his feelings, wants or hurts. And within the family unit, that is just not Sam to me. She must have read John`s journal which most certainly had remarks about Sam`s rebellious nature and Dean being always accomodating wondered if John got their sons` names mixed up or something. 

I think it is very Sam right now only because of how different his relationship with Mary is than it was with John. Sam has no expectations of Mary as a mom--doesn't even really know what having a mom would feel like--but had many expectations of John as a father that John rarely lived up to. Whereas, Dean didn't seem to have many expectations of John as a parent, he knew John couldn't really be one and it would be up to him to be the parent. But, with Mary, Dean's built up some heavy expectations of her over the years and she's not living up to those expectations.

So, it actually makes sense to me they've reversed their roles in the family unit on this one. I think it's very natural and in-character for both of them.

Edited November 19, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[bethy]

50 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

[Sam] was actually the more fretful in that final scene when Billie made that offer to Mary, going by facial reactions that is. Not that Dean wasn`t alarmed but Sam`s face showed a lot more fear and surprise right there.

Totally agree on this. And it makes me think that a lot of Sam's peace-keeping is rooted in a fear that Mary's going to rabbit if he doesn't demonstrate he's understanding to her position. In a way Sam's coming across as much more desparate about Mary than Dean is to me. I think that's because, as others have pointed out, the two have different memories/experiences with their mother.

Dean is hurt and angry because has memories - admittedly, probably romanticized memories - of his mother. He feels this rejection deeply because he remembers what it was like to be loved by his mom. Her stepping away from him (and Sam, obviously) goes against his core memory of a mother who doted on him and was an integral part of the foundation of his life. And probably also raises long-repressed memories of how he felt when she died. 

Sam is, I think, on a certain level dealing with an ideal of his mother. He doesn't have any memories of who she was or what she meant to him except theoretically. So Mary's stepping away - maybe especially for Sam who tends to remove himself emotionally or physically from situations to cope - makes a kind of sense to him. But he also desperately wants that connection to her. I think he probably is angry that she's staying away, but maybe feels like he doesn't have a right to be angry - whether because he understands to a degree or because he knows he doesn't have the same emotional connection Dean does. I would love it if we got to see Sam melt down or blow up at Mary because of how he's been hurt. Not as a punishment for Mary, but because I hope that Sam's not really as chill about all this as they seem to be implying. His yelling at the religious mother and his expression when Mary was deciding about whether to go back to heaven makes me think there's stuff going on under the surfact that I hope we get to see. 

I also thought the scene at the end of the episode as they were walking to the car was telling - Sam with his arm around Mary (and hers around him) and Dean walking on his own. Sam's holding on to his mother the only way he can right now and Dean is still holding himself a part. 

I cannot say how much I'm loving really liking Sam again this season. I feel so much empathy for him dealing with this when I've struggled with that in some of the more recent seasons. 

[MysteryGuest]

I watched the episode again with no commercials this time...so much better!  I still enjoyed it, for the most part, but I think the writing is inconsistent in just about every episode so far this season.

I really loved the scenes with Sam, Dean and Jody.  These actors know their characters inside and out, so it makes any scenes they're in so much more believable.  Loved Jody's comments to Dean and to Mary.  

I was happy to see Sam defend Dean's feelings in this episode.  No one in this mix is right or wrong, and all of their feelings are legitimate.  This writer conveyed that much better than others have done in previous episodes.     

[goldy]

16 hours ago, rue721 said:

I get where Dean is coming from, but imo he was just complaining because he was hurt/upset, not because his complaint actually made any sense. I mean, is he really going to be jealous of (dead) Asa and literally everyone Mary interacts with other than them? Because she doesn't cease to exist when she's not with them (anymore), so that's going to be a lot of people to be jealous of.

I think Dean is just generally upset so pretty much anything was going to set him off. But imo Mary wasn't actually doing anything wrong or even especially hurtful.

She flat out told them she was coming back, so I think it was meant to be pretty obvious. She tried to make it obvious, anyway. I don't blame Dean for being dubious, because he was devastated and not really in an optimistic frame of mind. But his doubt was despite what she told them, not because of it.

Dean was just telling her how he feels. Feelings doesn't always make sense.

Dean wasn't really jealous of Asa, he was kinda using the parallel of Mary taking the effort to see Asa to her not making enough effort with them, as a way to express how hurt he feels by her.

I don't think Mary was doing anything wrong and I certainly don't feel like she was intentionally being hurtful but the fact remains that she did UNINTETIONNALLY hurt Dean by leaving, and I love Dean and I guess I'm bias when it comes to seeing him hurt so in that particular situation, even though I love Mary very much as a character and I really do understand her motivation, my sympathy was with Dean. At the same time I do understand that there's no right or wrong here, Mary and Dean are both good people dealing with a challenging situation as best they can. 

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I actually include Sam in thinking Mary acts kind of amazingly self-centered right now and he would have a right to be angry at her too. It weirds me out that he is sooooo understanding of her and shows no real anger or hurt himself. I get that he doesn`t have any pre-conceived notion of Mary from actual previous memories so it might be easier for him to accept what he gets with her but at this point even Spock would show more emotional investment. By making the dichotomy between the brothers so stark: Dean is sooo emotional and Sam is sooo calm, it flattens Sam`s reaction IMO.

If the reactions were reversed, I`d be unhappy that Dean falls into the same patterns as a kid when he had to quell his wants and wishes to keep a parent happy who often acts like a cold fish in my eyes, sorry to say. My anger back then was at John mainly and I`m not happy with Mary now. What bugged me with Sam in the last few episodes was hounding Dean on how to handle his emotions "properly" but that really is a problem unrelated to their parents. 

So yes, my patience has kinda runneth out with Mary right now and I would feel this way if Dean was pushing his hurt down or showing it. And if Sam were to have enough, I`d say good for him, too. Whether Dean then felt compelled to mediate or not.

I disagree completely. I think they're doing a good job with Sam's reaction to the Mary situation. I can totally see why Sam would be more rational about the situation because, as you pointed out, unlike Dean, he doesn't have previews memories of Mary. but more than that I feel like he can relate to her need to escape the hunters world and to her wanting to live a normal life because they have it in common. He get why she's disappointed that things didn't end up the way she hoped for and he understand that, like him, she need time to accept the fact that hunting is in her blood.

But at the same time, he's not totally zen and calm in his reaction toward Mary, she's still his mother, he still want to get to know her better, he still want her to come back, he was devastated when he thought that she's gonna take Billie's offer. 

This kind of reaction goes perfectly with Sam's character as it was shown to us in the last 11 seasons. He's a smart guy so most of the time he would try to react to situations with calm and with rational thinking, but at the same time he sometimes let his feelings lead him when he feel he can relate to a person or a situation.  

Edited November 19, 2016 by goldy

[auntvi]

I apologize if this has been mentioned already, I don't remember seeing it. What if Mary, as she's read John’s journal, has made a list of things she needs to take care of before she can feel comfortable with Sam and Dean? Before she can really be their mother. Perhaps following the tracks of the yellow-eyed demon and taking care of any loose ends that may be left.  At the end of the episode Mary said she needed just a little more time.  That sounds like she has a plan that she’s almost completed.

[goldy]

13 minutes ago, auntvi said:

I apologize if this has been mentioned already, I don't remember seeing it. What if Mary, as she's read John’s journal, has made a list of things she needs to take care of before she can feel comfortable with Sam and Dean? Before she can really be their mother. Perhaps following the tracks of the yellow-eyed demon and taking care of any loose ends that may be left.  At the end of the episode Mary said she needed just a little more time.  That sounds like she has a plan that she’s almost completed.

I was thinking the same thing. My theory is that she's trying to find a way to maybe go back in time and change things so that John and the boys would never become hunters (as she obviously feel very guilty about that) and she's trying to find hunters that she use to know and information from John's journal to find a supernatural way to do it .

[catrox14]

17 minutes ago, goldy said:

Dean wasn't really jealous of Asa, he was kinda using the parallel of Mary taking the effort to see Asa to her not making enough effort with them, as a way to express how hurt he feels by her.

Agreed. I didn't see jealousy. Dean is just plain pissed off because he thinks Mary is still rejecting them. As far as Dean is concerned, Dean and Sam are still being told by Mary through her actions that her past is more important than her present and that she is treating them unfairly and is still excluding them from her life as they are now. Plain old anger and indignation because he thinks she is being unfair to them.

She could have texted them and said, "I'm going to Canada because someone I once saved has died". She didn't need to be radio silent on this one. IMO she didn't want Dean to know she hunted when he was a baby. I also  wondered if Dean saw something on Asa's Wall of Weird which informed part of his anger. Like maybe once Mary showed up and said she knew Asa when he was so young that he put two and two together and realized she hunted when he was a baby.

[SueB]

10 hours ago, rue721 said:

But yeah, so I'm just imagining smoking as a tool in the hunter's arsenal and it's kind of cracking me up. But also thinking, wow, that would be super useful for them!

 

I think you are correct on this being a useful tool.  Not enough for them to actually take up the habit but I imagine they have "bummed a cigarette" on occasion just to start a conversation.  New headcanon established! Boom!

[catrox14]

ETA: Upon re-rewatch, Dean's face and voice were NOT OKAY when he asks Mary,  "Where you been?" I FELT Dean trying to push down the resentment. What a beautiful moment. Kind of punched me in the gut because I missed that at first. But upon re-watch, oh man. THAT hurt. All Hail the Ackting. 

[bethy]

On rewatch:

Loved Jody's giving the boys a hard time about not having showered when they arrived and then, "You're gonna have to cleaned up before we spend five hours in the car together."

Also, loved Jody's reaction to seeing Mary - both giving Dean a hard time about not having mentioned that their mother was back and giving Mary that hug. 

[MysteryGuest]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Like maybe once Mary showed up and said she knew Asa when he was so young that he put two and two together and realized she hunted when he was a baby.

I'm not sure that Dean would be all that upset to learn that his mother continued to hunt after he was born.  Hunting is very much in his blood, and he's accepted that for most of his life, so I think he would fully understand her inability to just quit the life.  I think she did quit, for the most part, but I don't think he'd judge her too harshly for falling back into it on occasion.  

I think Dean was hurt that Mary is seemingly going around, touching base with anyone she can find from her old life, while pretty much ignoring them.  Like he said, if she had questions about anything in John's past, she could have just asked them.  I have no issue with her needing to discover these things on her own, but I can certainly understand why Dean would be frustrated and a bit hurt by it.  Sam seemed to share that hurt, based on his facial expression in that particular scene.  

I'm not sure they're ever going recapture that mother/child relationship, and they might be forced to give up on that at some point.  None of them can really get what they need in that regard because they're not those people anymore.  They're peers now, and need to try to find a new relationship to move forward with.

[DittyDotDot]

Y'all inspired me to re-watch it...why not? ;)

Anyway, I kinda got caught up in wondering how it was they got across the border with a trunk full of weapons? Also struck me, for being set in Canada, there weren't enough Canadians in the mix here. ;)

Anyway, the beginning of this episode, right up until they find the body hanging from the ceiling is mostly a delight! I especially adored Jodi getting all interested in Dean's "hobbies." Those three really do work so well together.

[MysteryGuest]

10 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I kinda got caught up in wondering how it was they got across the border with a trunk full of weapons?

I've been crossing the Canadian border my whole life (live near Buffalo), and I can honestly say that in that entire time I've only had my car pulled over once for an inspection.  So it is possible.  Of course, now that I've said that...

[MysteryGuest]

Sorry...duplicate post!

Edited November 19, 2016 by MysteryGuest

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

'm not sure that Dean would be all that upset to learn that his mother continued to hunt after he was born.  Hunting is very much in his blood, and he's accepted that for most of his life, so I think he would fully understand her inability to just quit the life.  I think she did quit, for the most part, but I don't think he'd judge her too harshly for falling back into it on occasion.

I think Dean would take a step back in his processing all this because it would be another memory shattered. IMO Dean took comfort in remembering that Mary was there for him when he was most vulnerable IMO.

It seemed to me to it was implied in the conversation between Sam and Mary that Mary continued to hunt even after saving Asa, but I could be wrong.  

[MysteryGuest]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

It seemed to me to it was implied in the conversation between Sam and Mary that Mary continued to hunt even after saving Asa, but I could be wrong.  

Mary did have that little smile on her face, but until they come right out and tell me she hunted regularly, my head canon says she hunted sporadically, at most.