S12.E01: Keep Calm and Carry On

[DittyDotDot]

9 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I realize this is probably not what the show is going for but they can`t have it both ways IMO. On the one hand I`m supposed to buy that they are oh so special and omnicient and have watched the Winchesters and know everything about their supernatural problems ever like they watched the damn show on DVD but on the other hand, they also want it to look like they have no idea who the Winchesters hunting contacts are and where to find them or they don`t have a clear picture on what went down in the last 11-13 years.

It`s either one or the other so I do believe that the MOL know just as much as if they HAD watched the DVDs. So they can screw themselves with the judgemental attitude.     

That's my point, I don't think they know as much as they think they do. They think they know what happened and how Lucifer got released, but I bet we find out they don't know much more than all the sudden there were angels and demons fighting all over the world. I think they are not half as all-knowing as they're pretending to be. I think they're making a whole bunch of assumptions right now and calling it fact, when it's not.

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

On a different topic, I know we briefly discussed the possibility of Lady Whoever's child possibly belonging to Sam or Dean.  What's making me think along this line again is the fact that she immediately recognized Dean's voice when he called.  Now I suppose we could assume that she had heard recordings of him, since they've been following their every move, but it just struck me as a bit odd.  That kid's around for a reason.  He could just be there to make Toni vulnerable, but it might be more.  Add that to Dean's comment about not raising his kids in the life, and I think it's still a remote possibility.  I think one of them with an unexpected child could make things interesting.  Not sure if that's good or bad, however.

Theoretically, if Ms Magical Brass Knuckles supposedly studied Dean's fighting "style" or whatnot then I would think they also managed to get some voice recordings.  Also, I think Lady JumpOfftheNearestBridge suspected something was up when the vet called her and was weird on the phone with her, then when he handed the phone to Dean she heard a male voice and put two and two together, especially when the first words out of his mouth were 'Listen, bitch".

I am not here for Dean to have any other unknown spawn after Emma. As to an encounter with Lady GoJumpOffTheNearestBridgePlease, I don't what know timeline would work if that kid is younger than 9 which it seems he is.

Dean's timeline 2007 to 2016.

S1&2 (2005-2006) - Dean probably had the most casual sex during this time but no way is he risking an unwanted pregnancy or STDs in his 20s. Nope. Don't buy it.

S3(2007/2008) - Dean eschewing condoms and risking unwanted pregnancies and STDs, seems really unlikely even during his last year of life before going to Hell. I don't think he'd risk contracting an STD like gonorrhea or genital herpes  (once daily Herpexia to stop the spread of genital herpes) if for no other reason than it would make HIM miserable. As to a child, he might have liked to think he was leaving more behind than his car  but he wouldn't do it by leaving behind a fatherless child with a rando hookup. That would just put Dean into utter and irredeemable asshole territory and I don't think they will do that.

S4(2008/2009)- He's back from Hell, dealing with apocalypse, demon blood Sam, angels etc.  Again if he hooked up like say at a brothel, I'm pretty sure he would NOT risk contracting an STD or getting a hooker pregnant. Besides he screwed a pretty angel in the Impala, that probably was good for him until the end of the world.

s5(2009/2010)- More apocalpyse, death, destruction. Don't think he was having much sex if any then. Again he wouldn't risk leaving a kid behind when the apocalpyse is nigh. 

s6/s7(2011/2012) - Dean was with Lisa for a year. No indications of him cheating on her. Once they broke up he didn't want to be with anyone. He wasn't having random hookups. Then when he finally did hook up it was with the amazon lady in s7. After he spawned Emma the monster baby he swore off sex.  And even then I'm not convinced Dean just tossed away a condom because he's again not an idiot. My head!canon is that Amazon chick's body had some kind of chemical property that rendered a condom ineffective. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

S8(2012/2013)- A year in Purgatory. No sex, dying and killing etc but no sex. Comes back to deal with Sam, Kevin, Crowley, Cas, closing the gates of Hell, etc.

S9(2013/2014) - Dealing with Sam/Gadreel etc, first sex for Dean with Suzy, the born again virgin porn star. After that he took on the MoC and it was all about kill, kill, kill and he becomes a demon.

S10-(2015-2016)  demon!Dean.  I can make a case for Demon!Dean eschewing condoms because he's an asshole and he could probably just self heal from STDs. But Lady JustGoAwayRightNow's kid is older than 2. Unless demon!Dean's sperm caused his spawn to grow at an exponential rate and it's a demon/human child and is the anti-Christ (oh gods please no) that timeline doesn't work. 

I can't really see a timeline that works for it being Dean's kid 

Sam - The timeline works for it being Sam's kid. And it works for it being during his Soulless Sam days when he was going with hookers, treating them like crap and sleeping with whomever he wanted, which would also explain why he doesn't seem  remember being with Lady GoTheFuckAway.  It would also explain why she was so concerned when she thought he killed himself. 

But please, NO don't do it Show. DO NOT DO IT. Let Dean have a child when he's done hunting...Same for Sam.

[Aeryn13]

But they knew to target the Winchesters. They knew what was up with the sun and the Darkness in the Season Finale. I can buy a group knowledgeable about the supernatural picking up on such monumental events like Lucifer or the Leviathans being released or all angels falling from Earth - though then also that such events stopped - however lots of such big things happened when just the Winchesters and their closest allies and enemies were present. Is there a demonic or angelic chatter radio that everyone is monitoring? A blog? Do they actually get all their knowledge from Chuck`s horrible books? IMO if someone knows that the Winchesters were directly involved in these events, they can`t NOT have a pretty good idea on what went down and how it got resolved.

In short, the BritMOL know too much for me already to buy that they actually know very little.

[catrox14]

Maybe there are levels of knowledge. Like the Old Men know more than Lady GoJumpInALake and MMBN(Ms Magical Brass Knuckles) and won't let the Women of Letters go further in the organization because they are  sexist douchebags who don't share information for fear of being replaced by creatures with ladyparts. Maybe these two are trying to get the information themselves to prove ...something? To advance in the organization?

It doesn't make a damn bit of sense otherwise.

[SueB]

Dean said "My Brother" before she said "Dean Winchester".  She didn't have to recognize his voice.

[DittyDotDot]

30 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

But they knew to target the Winchesters. They knew what was up with the sun and the Darkness in the Season Finale. I can buy a group knowledgeable about the supernatural picking up on such monumental events like Lucifer or the Leviathans being released or all angels falling from Earth - though then also that such events stopped - however lots of such big things happened when just the Winchesters and their closest allies and enemies were present. Is there a demonic or angelic chatter radio that everyone is monitoring? A blog? Do they actually get all their knowledge from Chuck`s horrible books? IMO if someone knows that the Winchesters were directly involved in these events, they can`t NOT have a pretty good idea on what went down and how it got resolved.

In short, the BritMOL know too much for me already to buy that they actually know very little. 

But, we don't know exactly what they know. Lady Toni only talked in generalities--arc angels, the Darkness, the sun--but they haven't yet said they know anything specific. Why wouldn't they know that Sam and Dean were the center of Lucifer being freed and the apocalypse? Even hunters knew Sam had let Lucifer out of his box. And, it wouldn't be that hard to figure out the Winchesters knew something about the Darkness, they showed up in at least two towns that were infected with viney people. Every monster they ran across last year was saying the Darkness was coming, it seems like they would've been saying that in Britain too.

I'm not convinced they actually know anything more than the average hunter, but I am convinced they think they know more than everyone else because of their own hubris. 

Edited October 15, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

So, I just realized that Moose was taken to a veterinarian for medical care. OMG. Please tell me this was an intentional joke because LOL.

[SueB]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

So, I just realized that Moose was taken to a veterinarian for medical care. OMG. Please tell me this was an intentional joke because LOL.

Saw a theory that she went to a vet because they don't have to report.

Had a horribly angsty thought:

- What if Dean is holding back on his violence because he doesn't want Mary to see how brutal he is.  What if he's embarrassed by it and doesn't want his Mom to think he's a monster?  Snapping that phone shows how tightly he's wound.  He's worried about her, he's major worried about Sam, he doesn't want to disappoint his Mom, he may have expressed they do good in this world but he's had a long-standing issue of self-loathing over his contribution as 'neck slicer in charge'.  THAT'S why he's letting Cas do the blood letting.  He's ashamed. 

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, SueB said:

Saw a theory that she went to a vet because they don't have to report.

I know that's the reason they did it. It's the classic trope that a gunshot victim is taken to a vet for the exact reason you state. But I hope it's ALSO an intentional joke because she took MOOSE to a VET! LOL

[Aeryn13]

Didn`t she even refer to him as moose? Like, seriously, she even knows intricate details like Crowley`s nicknames for the brothers? In that case it is utterly ridiculous to me that the Brit!MOL wouldn`t know every little thing the audience knows. 

[catrox14]

20 minutes ago, SueB said:

What if Dean is holding back on his violence because he doesn't want Mary to see how brutal he is.  What if he's embarrassed by it and doesn't want his Mom to think he's a monster?  Snapping that phone shows how tightly he's wound.  He's worried about her, he's major worried about Sam, he doesn't want to disappoint his Mom, he may have expressed they do good in this world but he's had a long-standing issue of self-loathing over his contribution as 'neck slicer in charge'.  THAT'S why he's letting Cas do the blood letting.  He's ashamed. 

That's not one I can entirely buy into because he had no problem with calling Lady GoScrewHerself a bitch on the phone nor grabbing Ms MBN by her collar but he didn't get into with the car guy nor the veterinarian?  I don't like how that comes across at all on the surface. I mean I don't care that he did it but it does kind of imply things I don't want implied. 

I'm gonna need some confirmation out of Dean's mouth to someone else, that Mary being around has messed up his mojo. I'm also gonna be pissed if they keep Dean on the bench for that reason.

Edited October 15, 2016 by catrox14

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Didn`t she even refer to him as moose? Like, seriously, she even knows intricate details like Crowley`s nicknames for the brothers? In that case it is utterly ridiculous to me that the Brit!MOL wouldn`t know every little thing the audience knows. 

Did she? I don't remember that, but if she did call him Moose then yeah, I'm not buying that they don't know what we know. Wait, but she also had the wall of weird that had everything about them even if some details were wrong.  Hmm...

[catrox14]

5 hours ago, SueB said:

- The fight: I slowed it down a bit and then re-watched.  Dean definitely underestimated her.  He DID get the upper hand in the first few moves. But she got out of it pretty quickly and pushed him off.  I think he counted on Cas taking her out (Sloppy Dean!).  And Cas went for the sleepy-time move but was blocked by the de-powering brass knuckles.  In the "second round", well, she just beat them. Plain and simple.  Again, underestimated.  Lucky they aren't dead.  I'd like it if Sam gave him shit about that later but not likely.

Sam has no business giving anyone shit for getting a beat down but if he does it should be Sam asking why Dean didn't draw the weapon that was in his fucking waistband where it ALWAYS IS in the first damn place.

ARGHH. That's why I reject that whole stupid fight.

[Ninamags]

 I didn't know either of the songs,  both  at the beginning and at the end.  ??

I'm sure it would've been a hell of a lot more poignant if I had known them. Especially whilst Sam is lying there in that pathetic state. 

I'm liking the idea that Lady  Toni-homeperm had some previous relation to the brothers. Maybe Sam. 

[catrox14]

22 hours ago, SueB said:

So... now I'm tempted to see how easy or hard it is to do. But I suspect hard and JA is a real BadAss.

[bethy]

I watched again last night and was struck by how sad/melancholy Mary was there at the end. Which totally makes sense given that she's trying to absorb that she's been gone 33 years, that the world has changed exponentially, that her younger son is in danger, that both her sons lived lives she didn't want for them, that her husband is dead. It's hard to imagine being slammed with all that. But I can't help but think she's got one more big, devasting reveal coming - that her deal with the demon set so much of that in motion. I think Dean didn't tell her that? He said he'd explain later, right?  Obviously there was a lot going on around that deal (I can't remember so much of what happened during some of those seasons), but I think that's liable to be a really heavy burden for her to bear.

[MysteryGuest]

20 hours ago, SueB said:

Dean said "My Brother" before she said "Dean Winchester".  She didn't have to recognize his voice.

You're right...I didn't remember that until I watched the scene again.  Mystery solved!

[Morrigan2575]

22 hours ago, SueB said:

So... now I'm tempted to see how easy or hard it is to do. But I suspect hard and JA is a real BadAss.

If it's an iphone 6, they're pretty easy to snap in half. You find videos on youtube showing people doing it. 

Edited October 16, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[DittyDotDot]

6 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

If it's an iphone 6, they're pretty easy to snap in half. You find videos on youtube showing people doing it. 

I thought it was really funny Dean snapped it in half. I mean, I get it, Dean's pissed and a lot is coming at him right now, so it was more frustration than anything. But, it wasn't his phone, it was the vet's. It's a good thing the vet got well-compensated for sewing up Sam. ;)

[catrox14]

Mary might already remember since she remembers the night she died. She may not think Dean knows so she doesn't say anything to him and well to take time to process it herself.  I think Dean (or Sam if he knows which I think he does) will either never tell her because what's the point, what's done is done and he won't want to cause her anymore mental duress OR he decides to put off telling her until she's a little more adjusted, not forever but for a little while at least until after they find Sam.

Spoilers

 

Spoiler

Alternately, if she doesn't remember and Dean doesn't tell her right away,  I  think she'll remember on her own once she reads John's journal and sees Yellow Eyed Demon. Heck, maybe Dean leaves the journal for her so she can figure it out for herself rather than have to give her the news.  

For maximum Dean angst, I can see Dabb making it that Sam never figured out about the deal,which I would consider a retcon, so if Mary knows and she tells Sam, then Sam gets angry with Dean for never telling him.

I want to know is what is going to come of Sam's forced memory recall that placed an emphasis on Sam remembering the fake message from Zachariah that compelled Sam to go with Ruby. I hope that is dredged up to put it to bed that Dean never left that message but I think it will be used to drive a wedge between Dean and Sam again. I hope I am very wrong.

[SueB]

Things that kick me in the FEELS when watching this episode:

- That Dean had to tell his Mom: 1) she died, 2) it's been 33 years, 3) her husband died, 4) her children are hunters, 5) she was a ghost, and 6) God has a sister who brought her back
- Mary had to hear all these things from apparently her own child while standing in her nightgown in a park 
- The way Dean rattled off the "Legend of John and Mary" from heart without missing a beat (thanks to the WoL Podcast for pointing that out)
- Sam still thinks Dean is dead. (where's that Pinocchio in water gif when you need it?)
- Sam hear's faux!Dean telling him to die as part of his worst experiences
- Cas seeing Dean and losing his shit
- Mary had to kill on her first day back from Heaven
- Cas knows Sam got shot in the leg on "his" watch
 

I need a drink.

[trxr4kids]

6 hours ago, bethy said:

. But I can't help but think she's got one more big, devasting reveal coming - that her deal with the demon set so much of that in motion.

Her deal with the demon was pretty much orchestrated by heaven and hell, either working together or independently. At that point the cupids had already tagged John and Mary for the purpose of having Sam and Dean, the perfect vessels. Azazel noticed Mary because Dean was sent back to 1973 and told to stop it by Cas without knowing what it was. If Dean hadn't been sent back there's no reason to think Azazel would have noticed Mary, his job was to make deals in hopes of creating a potential vessel, he didn't actually know Sam was the real deal afaic, not to say he wouldn't have targeted her anyway but the time trip guaranteed it.

Had Mary not made the deal John would have been resurrected anyway as a substitute Michael vessel and father of the true vessel and other substitute vessel. Had he not been killed at all and they went on about their happy little lives it still would mean Dean and Sam are the vessels, they just would have been even less prepared and more easily duped. I really don't need to see Mary angst over what IMO wasn't her fault.

I've watched this episode twice now, read the comments and let it marinate before commenting on the fight scene, so here goes my list of problems with it: 1) Ms. MyHairsTooTight hit the car from the rear side, she should have seen 3 occupants in the car and therefore been expecting Mary. 2) The gun thing @catrox14 said. 3) Dean is knocked down but not out and doesn't appear to have had the wind knocked out of him or damaged ribs yet he stays on the ground during the fight between Cas and Ms.BrassKnucklesofDoom.  4) Cas also gets knocked down but not out conveniently next to Dean who is still down so they can watch Mary stab Ms.BunsTooTight. 5) Post fight Dean is fine and walking talking normally verifying for me there was absolutely no reason for him to lay on the ground and not get up for several minutes, I could handwave and say Cas used healing mojo but he would've had to appear hurt first for that to work.

Other than that I liked the episode and was able to watch it the second time without fast forwarding through the Sam torture even though it was uncomfortable to watch, seriously stop with the torture.

[MysteryGuest]

I don't know whether they'll bring up Mary's demon deal, or not.  Dean told Mary that John sacrificed himself to save him, but didn't specifically say he made a deal with the demon who killed Mary.  Whether that was supposed to be implied, or conveniently left out is yet to be determined, I guess.  I don't think they really need to go there.  Both Sam and Dean have made deals or done things that have had far bigger consequences than Mary's deal.  And if we believe the angels, they'd have found a way to get Mary and John together, no matter what.  It was fated.

[catrox14]

40 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

Azazel noticed Mary because Dean was sent back to 1973 and told to stop it by Cas without knowing what it was.

That's always been a confusing episode but I never thought Cas intended for Dean to change the past or be there to instigate the situation. He only sent him to the past to see how Azazel possessed Samuel, killed John to get Mary to make the deal for Sammy, which was always going to happen AFAIK. At the end of the episode Cas told him he was never going to change anything in the past but would have to change Sam's path in the present. So, no matter what Dean did or didn't do, he didn't have any affect on what happened in the past.

Final scene from Super-Wiki transcript.

Quote

DEAN is asleep in bed. He gasps and wakes up. CASTIEL is standing near the foot of the bed. DEAN sits up.

DEAN
I couldn't stop any of it. She still made the deal. She still died in the nursery, didn't she?

CASTIEL
Don't be too hard on yourself. You couldn't have stopped it.

DEAN stands up.

DEAN
What?

CASTIEL
Destiny can't be changed, Dean. All roads lead to the same destination.

DEAN
Then why'd you send me back?

CASTIEL
For the truth. Now you know everything we do.

DEAN
What the hell are you talking about?

CASTIEL looks at the other bed, which hasn’t been slept in, and DEAN follows his gaze.

DEAN
Where's Sam?

CASTIEL
We know what Azazel did to your brother. What we don't know is why – what his endgame is. He went to great lengths to cover that up.

DEAN
Where's Sam?

CASTIEL
425 Waterman.

DEAN grabs his keys and his jacket.

CASTIEL
You brother is headed down a dangerous road, Dean, and we're not sure where it leads. So stop it. Or we will.

 

[trxr4kids]

28 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That's always been a confusing episode but I never thought Cas intended for Dean to change the past or be there to instigate the situation. He only sent him to the past to see how Azazel possessed Samuel, killed John to get Mary to make the deal for Sammy, which was always going to happen AFAIK. At the end of the episode Cas told him he was never going to change anything in the past but would have to change Sam's path in the present. So, no matter what Dean did or didn't do, he didn't have any affect on what happened in the past.

Final scene from Super-Wiki transcript.

At that point Cas was acting on orders from Zachariah who was acting on orders from Michael afaik, so it's always been my belief that they had to send him(Dean) back to make it happen in that way. Samuel was working a case according to him but Mary was uninvolved until Dean brought out Johns journal showing her friend was a target. She still might have become involved in the case had Dean not been there but sending him there with vague info was Heaven's guarantee imo since they knew the vessel line and had already deployed the cupids. I don't think Cas knew any of this, I think he still was buying the company line at that point.

ETA: Cas still believed that Heaven wanted to stop Sam at this point in time as you quoted which we learned wasn't the case.

Edited October 17, 2016 by trxr4kids
clarity

[DittyDotDot]

8 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

At that point Cas was acting on orders from Zachariah who was acting on orders from Michael afaik, so it's always been my belief that they had to send him(Dean) back to make it happen in that way. Samuel was working a case according to him but Mary was uninvolved until Dean brought out Johns journal showing her friend was a target. She still might have become involved in the case had Dean not been there but sending him there with vague info was Heaven's guarantee imo since they knew the vessel line and had already deployed the cupids. I don't think Cas knew any of this, I think he still was buying the company line at that point.

ETA: Cas still believed that Heaven wanted to stop Sam at this point in time as you quoted which we learned wasn't the case.

Until they averted the apocalypse, you couldn't change the past. After that the rules all changed since there was no script to follow anymore. So, I don't believe they could change the past back in S4. But, I like you're theory that the arc angels sent Dean back to start it all. It actually does make sense. I always just assumed they sent Dean back as a way to keep up appearances for the lower angels since there's no way the arc angels didn't know what Yellow Eyes had done to Sam or what Yellow Eye's end game was.

[catrox14]

19 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

At that point Cas was acting on orders from Zachariah who was acting on orders from Michael afaik, so it's always been my belief that they had to send him(Dean) back to make it happen in that way.

I understand the theory. My problem with it is that Cas pretty much said Dean was sent back to be a witness and Dean thought he was supposed to do something to stop it in the past because of what Cas said at the beginning of the episode. My point is that nothing Dean did or didn't do, actually changed what was going to happen.  YMMV

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Finally watched the episode myself.  (was without Wifi Friday and Saturday.)  Basically:

• Loved, loved, LOVED the Dean and Mary scenes - especially the ones at the beginning and Dean's weirded out face when he realized his mom was thinking about sexy times with his dad in Baby's backseat.
• Awwed at Cas' reaction to Dean being alive and the hug.
• Lol at Cas: "I don't have a harp."  I totally think they should get him a harp as a gag now.
• Read through all the comments and didn't see anyone else mention it, so I guess it was only me, but I kept expecting Lady McDieBitchDie and Evil BMol (which I want to read as Bowel Movement...)Hench Bitch to electrocute Sam while the giving him the cold shower.  So glad they didn't.
• Wasn't too bothered by the fact that the BowelMovementBitch got the beat down on Dean and Cas - she was using BRASS KNUCKLES for Guck's sake!  But I do agree with those who pointed out/wondered why the heck didn't Dean draw his gun and shoot her as soon as she semi-identified herself.  I was waiting on that Indiana Jones move myself.  
• Sam completely faked me out with glass shard to the throat also.  Lucky for Lady McWatchYourBackBitch he was injured or she'd be in a world of hurt.  
• Put me down for enjoying everyone's original names for the LadyNotaLady and her Henchwoman also!

On 10/14/2016 at 1:34 AM, SueB said:

- Dean and Mary.  Dean had ALL THE FACTS of Mary's life.  How many times did he hear those stories?  And he just rattled them off with such reverence.  *sigh* I am SUCH a sucker for Dean/Mary feels.  And his whole body language around her is gentle.  He's treating her like he's never treated anyone else.  I don't know how to explain it.  But Jensen just knocked it out of the park. Squatting down to talk to her.  The way he looked back to check on her as they drove (during that montage).  If you rewatch, just see the way he moves around her.  It's so very well done. And yes, that LOOK when he hugged her. And of course I loved his traumatized realization that his mother was recalling sexy times in the back of that car.  Dean needs a good therapist. I volunteer as tribute. 

I loved that Dean knew all about how Mary and John met and fell in love.  Awww.  I legit Lol'ed at your last line. :)

Quote

 Note: I have ZERO sympathy for Lady McFullOfHerself.  I don't want redemption for her.

Amen.  I do NOT want the Lady TorturePornBitch to be a love interest for Sam.  I don't want to see her 'redeemed'.  And even if she did get 'redeemed' I don't understand how Sam would possibly get involved with her on a personal level after this.  All her 'admiring glances' not withstanding.  Just No.

Quote

Irritated about: I NEEDED Dean to get a good hit on Evol British Henchwoman.  She died waaaaaaayyyy too easy.  I don't mind Mary getting the kill, but Dean needs to hit something.

Also agree with this about Dean landing a good hit on henchbitch.

On 10/14/2016 at 7:10 AM, Miles said:

That probably should have exploded in his hands, since it looked like he broke the battery, but oh well...

Exploded?  No.  Cellphone batteries wouldn't explode from being 'broken' (or more accurately in this case, cracked.)  Overheating might make them explode, but then they wouldn't necessarily overheat just from being broken or cracked either.  

On 10/14/2016 at 9:19 PM, Goldmoon said:

The angel possessions for Lucifer's part of the story threw me right out of the narrative.  We already know if a body isn't strong enough to host an angel, it explodes.  We know that a human has to agree to host the angel. The burns we saw on all of them, including the fourth one, who presumably carried Luci for a while, were the burns from EXTERNAL angel grace, the same as the grace that Gadreel used to kill Kevin.  So are we to understand that only the unnamed son would accept Lucifer, before or after Luci burned/killed his family with externally applied angel grace, then for reasons unknown, Luci left the son and hopped into someone else who gave permission to host on the road, and killed the transporting son with external angel grace as he departed?  Have the showrunners forgotten that this is how angel grace works? 

I was pretty bored with all the Lucifer stuff.  Even if the demon rant about 14 year old girls was hilarious.  I know Lucifer is (was) an arch-angel, but isn't he also a demon himself now?  I mean if he's 'King of Hell'.  So do the "rules" of angel possession really apply to him anymore?

Quote

With all the talk of dumbing down Dean for the takedown by the UberWOL, I felt the same about Sam.  Why didn't he check Lady Milady for weapons or tie her hands or something after he "strangled" her unconscious?  I wish he had snapped her neck.

Add me to the 'wish he'd snapped her neck' list.

Quote

I would like to weigh in on all the variations of Lady GetTheFuckOffMyScreen I am seeing here. I love the names as much as I hate the character!  

I think this might be my favorite! :D

On 10/14/2016 at 10:54 PM, Boopsahoy said:

Tonibaloney sayidt wasn't supposed to go this way but knowing you it was ways going to go this way. 

I'm also partial to this one.  :)

On 10/14/2016 at 11:39 PM, Commando Cody said:

This show has not been able to bring very many women on to the show and make them likable. I see this English Rogue MoL as Bella 2.0. It didn't work the first time. 

Probably unpopular opinion: but I actually liked Bela.

On 10/15/2016 at 3:19 PM, catrox14 said:

I am not here for Dean to have any other unknown spawn after Emma. As to an encounter with Lady GoJumpOffTheNearestBridgePlease, I don't what know timeline would work if that kid is younger than 9 which it seems he is.

snippity-snipped because there was a lot...

s6/s7(2011/2012) -

Sam - The timeline works for it being Sam's kid. And it works for it being during his Soulless Sam days when he was going with hookers, treating them like crap and sleeping with whomever he wanted, which would also explain why he doesn't seem  remember being with Lady GoTheFuckAway.  It would also explain why she was so concerned when she thought he killed himself. 

But please, NO don't do it Show. DO NOT DO IT. Let Dean have a child when he's done hunting...Same for Sam.

I don't think the timeline works for being Sam's kid during his SoullessSam days either.  That would have had to be S6, which would make the kid 5?  I think he was older, but I don't remember.  

Also, IMO, Sam didn't treat the hookers like crap.  The one we saw him with, he remembered to pay her when she was going to walk out the room unpaid and she pretty much said she had the night of her life, offered him her number and wanted to hook up free of charge in the future.  Doesn't sound like he treated her like crap to me.  

Besides, didn't he finally remember all his SoullessSam deeds when he got his memory back?  If so, then he should remember Lady McFuckOffandDie.

COMPLETELY agree with you last line!

Edited October 17, 2016 by RulerofallIsurvey
getting rid of extraneous stuff

[catrox14]

22 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

ETA: Cas still believed that Heaven wanted to stop Sam at this point in time as you quoted which we learned wasn't the case.

But that doesn't change that at the time Cas sent Dean back, Dean's actions didn't make anything happen. It was the cupids that put John and Mary together, not Dean. 

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Also, IMO, Sam didn't treat the hookers like crap.  The one we saw him with, he remembered to pay her when she was going to walk out the room unpaid and she pretty much said she had the night of her life, offered him her number and wanted to hook up free of charge in the future.  Doesn't sound like he treated her like crap to me.  

He paid her for her services as he should but she made it clear she was interested in more. He was arrogant, hauty, and dismissive and then just tossed her number in the trash when he could have just told her it was business only. But I can't stand Soulless Sam so to me when he simply took a breath, I thought he was a dick, LOL. YMMV.

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I know Lucifer is (was) an arch-angel, but isn't he also a demon himself now?  I mean if he's 'King of Hell'.  So do the "rules" of angel possession really apply to him anymore?

I don't think angels can be demons. Demons are twisted human souls; angels don't have souls. Lucifer is a very powerful arc angel--a douchey arc angel--but not a demon.

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Besides, didn't he finally remember all his SoullessSam deeds when he got his memory back?  If so, then he should remember Lady McFuckOffandDie.

I don't remember that he remembered all of his deeds. But my head!canon is that Soulless Sam was with a lot of women and I don't think they registered enough with him to even forget them later.  But that's just my head!canon.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

He paid her for her services as he should but she made it clear she was interested in more. He was arrogant, hauty, and dismissive and then just tossed her number in the trash when he could have just told her it was business only. But I can't stand Soulless Sam so to me when he simply took a breath, I thought he was a dick, LOL. YMMV.

Oh, I agree that SoullessSam was a dick.  I just didn't think he particularly treated that hooker like crap.  I thought he treated her pretty good compared to how hookers usually get treated.  At least he didn't throw her number away in front of her.  It was after she left.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

4 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't think angels can be demons. Demons are twisted human souls; angels don't have souls. Lucifer is a very powerful arc angel--a douchey arc angel--but not a demon.

Yeah, I get what you're saying - and I forgot about angels not having souls there for a moment - but he also had the Mark of Cain, so he's also something more than just a douchey arch-angel.  Not quite sure what, but seems like more to me.  [shrug].  I also just don't think for some reason that 'normal' angel "rules" apply to him.  

Oh, just thought of something else.  But then how can angels be "human" after they loose their grace if they don't have a soul?  (Cas has been Human, as has boogertron.)  There's too much contradictory stuff, imo just to say that Lucifer can't be a demon.  But ymmv.

[catrox14]

Just now, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Oh, I agree that SoullessSam was a dick.  I just didn't think he particularly treated that hooker like crap.  I thought he treated her pretty good compared to how hookers usually get treated.  At least he didn't throw her number away in front of her.  It was after she left.

Yeah see to me, he should have just made it clear when she was getting pushy and not taken her number at all. I think he took it because he considered it and then threw it away.  Ugh. I just hate that whole scene. LOL.

I thought her kid looked pretty young but I think also the timeline is wonky since there was a full year that he was running around Soulless.

I also got to wondering if Lady GetOnASinkingShip is related to Mary in some way.  Like maybe a niece from the Campbell side of things.

[catrox14]

So I saw a theory floating in the interwebz that Ms BunWayTooTight's Magical Brass Knuckles affected Dean because he's part angel now or something. I thought that was an interesting idea.  I don't know how it would work unless being connected to Amara did something to him or Chuck did something to him when he healed him after all the souls. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Yeah see to me, he should have just made it clear when she was getting pushy and not taken her number at all. I think he took it because he considered it and then threw it away.  Ugh. I just hate that whole scene. LOL.

That would have required him to consider her feelings, which SoullesSam didn't do for anyone, not even Dean.  :).  Yeah, that scene was pretty awful.

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I also got to wondering if Lady GetOnASinkingShip is related to Mary in some way.  Like maybe a niece from the Campbell side of things.

Oh, I hope not.  I don't want her related to the guys at all, anyhow or any way.  But also, Mary mentioned that she thought MoL was just a hunter myth.  So if Lady McCanSlitherOwnThroatNow was related to the Campbells, would Mary have known more about the MoL?

[rue721]

27 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Add me to the 'wish he'd snapped her neck' list.

Naw, Sam wouldn't do that.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

affected Dean because he's part angel now

Wouldn't that make him an abomination?

[catrox14]

Just now, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Oh, I hope not.  I don't want her related to the guys at all, anyhow or any way.  But also, Mary mentioned that she thought MoL was just a hunter myth.  So if Lady McCanSlitherOwnThroatNow was related to the Campbells, would Mary have known more about the MoL?

Well, Dabb has hinted that Mary has some secrets of her own so maybe she did know more than she remembers or is pretending to remember. I dunno.

[DittyDotDot]

14 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Oh, just thought of something else.  But then how can angels be "human" after they loose their grace if they don't have a soul?  (Cas has been Human, as has boogertron.)  There's too much contradictory stuff, imo just to say that Lucifer can't be a demon.  But ymmv.

Well, I never thought Cass or Marvatron were actually human when they lost their grace. They were depowered and mortal, but I don't think they were actually human, just that people were using it as shorthand for them being depowered.

I don't know, but Lucifer still seems to be an arc angel by the show's rules. He needed permission to possess Cass and all. As to Lucifer carrying the Mark, the Mark turns humans into demons, not sure it does the same thing to angels. Metaphorically, Lucifer is a demon in the sense that he's a very twisted angel and all, but I think the show is saying Lucifer is an arc angel not a demon.

I also don't think humans can become angels either.  They're just different species, IMO.

Edited October 17, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[RulerofallIsurvey]

3 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Naw, Sam wouldn't do that.

[sigh]  More's the pity... ;)

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Wouldn't that make him an abomination?

I dunno. Maybe he's full angel and doesn't know it yet?  I think the nephelim was considered an abomination because it was born from the mating of an angel and human. In this case, if Chuck or Amara decided to make Dean an angel that would something they chose to make, so he wouldn't be an abomination. I don't think he is an angel, I just thought it was an interesting notion.

I got to thinking maybe those sigils did something to him because he's still Michael's Chosen Vessel.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

17 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Maybe he's full angel and doesn't know it yet? 

Oh dear.  I read this wrong.  Just going to step away now.

Edited October 17, 2016 by RulerofallIsurvey

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, SueB said:

- That Dean had to tell his Mom: 1) she died, 2) it's been 33 years, 3) her husband died, 4) her children are hunters, 5) she was a ghost, and 6) God has a sister who brought her back

It reminded me that once again Dean is kind of being a parent to Mary throughout (for lack of a better word) So even when he gets his Mom back, he's still taking care of someone else. I would like for someone to look after Dean for a hot minute, you know?

2 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Oh dear.  I read this wrong.  Just going to step away now.

HAHAHAHAHA. Well he was full of angel in s4 or rather she was full of him.

[Commando Cody]

Shouldn't we start seeing more of these Nephelim children? Plenty of angels fell to earth. 

[Wynne88]

Quote

Tonibaloney sayidt wasn't supposed to go this way but knowing you it was ways going to go this way. 

If she did run into Sam during his soulless days, and didn't realize that he wasn't 100% there, would she necessarily know the difference now?  It might explain her total lack of compassion for him.  I doubt that's the line the story will take, but sort of interesting to consider.

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Oh, I agree that SoullessSam was a dick.  I just didn't think he particularly treated that hooker like crap.  I thought he treated her pretty good compared to how hookers usually get treated.  At least he didn't throw her number away in front of her.  It was after she left.

I pretty much agree, but I have an elaborate headcanon for that scene. In my headcanon that $200 was a tip, because that's the only way the scene makes sense to me. In my headcanon, Sam had already paid her - because what higher-priced hooker would forget to get paid ahead of time, and she looked like an expensive hooker - but Sam had told her if he enjoyed himself, she'd get a bonus... so that was the bonus. And then because as a good hooker, she' also be good with the "buttering up," so then there's the whole "oh, yeah, I'd definitely see you on my day off." Soulless Sam, being good at that kind of mind manipulation himself by now thinks "yeah, right, sure you would, you already got your tip, geesh" and into the trash went her number - after she left. In other words, they were both being cold, just business with each other, just differently. Soulless Sam wasn't telling her that it was just business, because then he'd be acknowledging he'd figured out her "buttering up." Not worth the trouble for him... and not something maybe most guys would figure out, so to keep up his appearances as "normal", he pretended he bought it.

As I said, my headcanon is elaborate, but for me it all fits, and makes both the hooker and Soulless Sam interesting in that scene as they play a bit of a mindgame with each other.

Back to the episode...

I, too, am loving all of the nicknames for Lady Toni... Lady McFullofHerself is my favorite. I was thinking of it last night, and hadn't realized someone had already thought of it. To up that I had also thought of Her Lady of Pretentiousness. And...

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Amen.  I do NOT want the Lady TorturePornBitch to be a love interest for Sam.  I don't want to see her 'redeemed'.  And even if she did get 'redeemed' I don't understand how Sam would possibly get involved with her on a personal level after this.  All her 'admiring glances' not withstanding.  Just No.

So much this. They better not try a Bela thing with Lady Toni. This was a little bit more personal with Lady HerHaughtiness insulting Sam on a personal level. I would hope that Sam wouldn't just forget that and would have a bit more self-respect than that.

As for why Lucifer can burn through hosts, my theory is that Amara damaged him in some way, taking away or damaging his "angelness," so that he's operating more like a demon now? Wild guess there, otherwise I got nothing.

Edited October 17, 2016 by AwesomO4000

[Diane]

Can we give Ladycangoscrewherself her on topic then we can list all the names, lol. 

Edited October 17, 2016 by Diane

[Commando Cody]

Lady MacbethLeaveTheShowNow