Mary Margaret: Is Snow White Again?

[formerlyfreedom]

Talk about Snow and her issues here.

[daxx]

I sincerely hope Snow has some kind of meaningful discussion with Killian once she realizes he and Emma are together. I want this onscreen, not some offhand mention about an offscreen discussion.

Charming and Emma looking at you, discussing Liam in offscreenville, just bad form.

I feel this is needed for a good family dynamic considering how Snow was all team Neal.

[KAOS Agent]

I was thinking the other day about just how much I hated the whole new Dark Curse/heart splitting with regards to how it affected my perception of Snow White. David had sacrificed himself and explicitly told his wife he wanted to do it so that she and their child would live and that their love would live on in the new baby (no mention of how it already lives on in Emma, but at least David was thinking of his new baby). So what does Snow White do? She freaks out because she can't live without David and immediately decides that heart splitting is a thing essentially putting her unborn baby's life at risk on the basis of crazy hope. Granted it all works out because this show isn't going to kill off Prince Charming, but it really exposes where Snow White's priorities lie. I hate that she's chosen Charming over Emma on multiple occasions without fighting to stay with both, but at least Emma is an adult who is more than capable of taking care of herself and not dependent on her parents. Baby Snowflake is not. (As an aside I'm going with Snowflake as the name because there already was a Neal and beyond hating them naming their baby Neal, it's too confusing to reference the two Neals in this post) Snowflake needs his parents and already before he's been born Snow has chosen David over him.

 

So now I wonder, if David is shot and Snow is holding him back from falling in a portal (ala Neal/Emma in "Second Star to the Right"), would Snow be willing to let him go and not follow him through so she could stay with the baby who needs her? I have this horrible feeling she'd jump right in after him and leave her baby to be taken care of by Emma. Now Emma would do a fine job of it, but Snowflake needs his mommy and Snow was all about how she wanted a do over. Emma let Neal go, so that Henry wouldn't grow up alone like both of his parents. Would Snow's relationship with Charming preclude her from doing the same? If the roles were flipped, I think David would prioritize the needs of his baby son over his adult wife, but I can't say the same for Snow and this bothers me to no end.

[Camera One]

The writers did the same thing with Emma by having her throw Henry and her own existence under the bus by doing mouth-to-mouth on Hook to revive him from drowning, knowing that she was presumably the only one with the light magic needed to stop Zelena from changing the past.  She prioritized Hook over her own son, her own parents, her own future sibling and herself.  Sickening for sure how these writers destroy the characters.

Edited June 2, 2014 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

I never bought that Emma could defeat the incredibly powerful Zelena, so where I might usually be bothered that she saved Hook at the risk of everyone else, I wasn't because in my mind the plan for Emma to defeat Zelena & Rumpel was so ridiculously laughable to start with that they were better off with her losing her magic. However, there is a difference between the two situations. With the Snow/heart splitting, she wasn't forced into making a instant decision about David dying. They had talked it through and she had agreed it was the best option. David had expressed his feelings on the subject and willingness to sacrifice for their child and then had indeed made that sacrifice expressly so that their baby would live and Snow turned around and decided to potentially waste that sacrifice and die with him. It wasn't the oh God what do I do panicked immediate choice Emma was faced with, it was a deliberately selfish choice that only suited Snow's needs and ignored the life of the child she was carrying as well as potentially rendering David's sacrifice moot. And this isn't the only time I've seen Snow make this type of decision. They've made her love for David so exclusive and all consuming that it's coming off as unhealthy.

[Rumsy4]

Snow only panicked after Zelena had dumped the memory potion into the cauldron. If none of them had their memories, and Zelena was going to take the baby, Charming's sacrifice would be in vain. This may mitigate what she did. I myself felt that the Show jumped the shark with this plot.

Snow was ready to go through the Enchanted Wood portal when she was pregnant with Emma, and she also jumped through the Hat after Emma after the Curse broke. It's only afterwards that she seems to have misplaced her brains.

Edited June 2, 2014 by Rumsy4

[YaddaYadda]

My personal favorite is that after Emma talks about her life as an orphan to unlock Pan's map in Lost Girl, Snow's secret is not only that she wants a do over with a baby but that she'll stay behind in Neverland with Charming and live out her eternal life in a tree house.

 

I really liked Snow/Mary Margaret up until the smudge in the heart.  Everything went to the shits after that.  I especially don't like how she is judgey about Emma.  But hey, maybe now that Emma has called her "Mom".

 

I don't want Mary Margaret to be all sunshine and roses.  But please build her relationship with her daughter.  I'm all for them fixing Snow/Regina and what went wrong there even though it's the most contrived thing ever, but Emma/Snow need to be fixed and built ASAP.  I think that relationship is incredibly vital to the show.

[Dani-Ellie]

I'm all for them fixing Snow/Regina and what went wrong there even though it's the most contrived thing ever, but Emma/Snow need to be fixed and built ASAP.  I think that relationship is incredibly vital to the show.

 

Absolutely. This relationship was at one sweet point in time the heart of the show for me. The absolute heart of it. There was something so lovely about this mother and daughter coming together when they didn't believe they were mother and daughter, and then when the curse broke, it could have been a wonderful time for healing for the both of them. Emma could finally have the mother she'd always wanted, and Snow could get to know the daughter that was stolen from her.

 

But then they had Snow hung up on "mommy" and ignoring "mother," to the detriment of the absolutely wonderful relationship she'd built with Emma over the past couple of seasons. It kills me, because Jen and Ginny work so well together and their closeness off camera imbues the characters with this base connection. The writing, on the other hand, is doing the characters no favors, because the disregard Snow's shown for Emma is terrible and Emma just sitting back and taking it smacks of acceptance only because scraps of love is better than no love at all. It's disheartening rather than heartwarming, which is probably not at all anyone's intention.

[KingOfHearts]

Snow is my least favorite character at the moment. However, I did thoroughly enjoy her as Bandit Snow and Mary Margaret in S1. After her memory had returned, her character went downhill for some reason. It wasn't the actress - it was the writing.

 

As Dani-Elle said, Snow going all mommy-crazed in S2 onward was her most glaring downfall. Now with Prince Snowflake, she has thrown Emma under the bus even more. In her mind, besides saving their hides from Big Bads every now and again, she doesn't even need Emma any more. Unless the werewolf babysitter is on speed dial, her character development and relationship with Emma seems stifled.

 

Emma and Snow had such a great friendship in S1... where did that go?

[Shanna Marie]

I never bought that Emma could defeat the incredibly powerful Zelena, so where I might usually be bothered that she saved Hook at the risk of everyone else, I wasn't because in my mind the plan for Emma to defeat Zelena & Rumpel was so ridiculously laughable to start with that they were better off with her losing her magic.

I think the key there is that Emma never bought that she could defeat Zelena and was uncomfortable with the idea that it all rested on her. She was kind of looking for a way out, and saving Hook gave her a noble out (especially since she was actually doing things wrong for dealing with a drowning victim).

 

I do agree that Snow only agreed to make the really risky heart-splitting move after Zelena's modification of the curse. If none of them were going to remember, the baby was going to be in trouble anyway, and having both parents alive might help improve the odds of facing a witch without knowing what was going on. The real failure of that whole plan was it doesn't sound like they'd made any provision for finding Emma, since that was the entire point of the plan. I guess they thought they'd land in Storybrooke and give her a call, but she didn't have her memories, so she'd have likely just hung up on them. What would they have done even without Zelena's interference?

 

It would be nice if Snow and her actual daughter got as much bonding time as Snow and Regina.

[stealinghome]

I guess they thought they'd land in Storybrooke and give her a call, but she didn't have her memories, so she'd have likely just hung up on them.

Not if they said they wanted to hire her and offered an obscene amount of money. That would probably be enough to get her to Storybrooke--and then you have to figure Regina could whip up a memory potion or they could True Love Kiss her memories back or give her the book or whatever.

 

That part of the plan never being vocalized has actually never bothered me, because imo we're overplaying the difficulty of getting Emma back to Storybrooke and memoried.

[Shanna Marie]

Not if they said they wanted to hire her and offered an obscene amount of money. That would probably be enough to get her to Storybrooke

Would it, though? Even without her Storybrooke memories and even with having never given up Henry, Emma was street-smart and rather cynical. Someone she didn't know in a place she'd never heard of offering an obscene amount of money would have raised all kinds of red flags, and she's never been shown to be all that mercenary or so in need of cash that waving money at her would do any good. It just seems to be that if you're making a desperation move because everything hinges on one person, you need to have some contingencies in place for dealing with that one person. Otherwise it's like "sacrifice my husband to get to the place where my daughter is, and then I guess we'll figure it out from there." That's a lot of handwaving for something with such high stakes.

[stealinghome]

Emma was "street-smart" enough to drink a potion that some creepy stalker guy in guyliner and black leather gave her in the middle of the street, not even near a hospital or a cop or anything. By which I mean not that street-smart at all!

 

I'm not disagreeing that her Spidey-sense may have gone off, but I just don't think it would be that hard to get her to Storybrooke. Offer enough money to pay for Henry's college tuition and there you go.

[WildeNight]

 

not even near a hospital or a cop or anything.

 

She did it directly in front of the police station.  I'd say she was probably in the safest place she could be if the bottle was a drug or poison.

[Shanna Marie]

She did it directly in front of the police station.  I'd say she was probably in the safest place she could be if the bottle was a drug or poison.

Well, an emergency room might have been safer, but at that point she'd had him locked up while she investigated his claim and she'd found evidence she couldn't explain other than by him having told her the truth.

 

At any rate, the fact remains that Snow and David were sacrificing David to get to Emma so she could save them all, and while I didn't need a detailed breakdown of their plan, it would have been nice to know that they had a plan for reaching her and persuading her to help when she didn't remember them since they were paying such a high cost to reach her. As far as we can tell, they didn't even know where she was. Hook had the advantage of traveling by bean portal, which would have allowed him to direct it to take him to Emma, so he didn't have to know where she was. He'd been to New York before and had been to Neal's apartment, so he had a way of presenting evidence to make her trust him. Snow would have had none of that, even if Zelena hadn't modified the curse. I wouldn't have needed much, just a line of dialogue before Charming got his heart ripped out along the lines of "You know what to do, right?" "Yes, I'll do x, y and z as soon as I arrive to find Emma."

 

As it was, they must have been in Storybrooke at least a few days before Hook got Emma there, given the amount of time he was in New York, and then however long it might have taken him after the curse to find a magic bean, and it doesn't sound like they'd even considered looking for Emma. I was okay with them being resigned to being separated from her when they were in another world, but once they were in her world again, you'd think they'd have wanted to find her, even if just to help with the curse.

[Camera One]

while I didn't need a detailed breakdown of their plan, it would have been nice to know that they had a plan for reaching her and persuading her to help when she didn't remember them since they were paying such a high cost to reach her.

 

The "good guys" on this show never actually have a plan beyond the vague outline.  In the flashbacks, sometimes their "plan" is simply to go ask the dreaded but not that dreaded Rumplestiltskin for help.  Meanwhile, the bad guys have elaborately convoluted nonsensical and roundabout plans that take half a season to unravel.

Edited June 5, 2014 by Camera One

[Serena]

From the Media Thread:
 

That kiss was a WTF moment and not in a good way, especially how the writers had Regina sidestep apologizing to Snow and then write Snow's response as saying, "Go for it, Girl, you deserve this!".  I was experiencing whiplash from the "I was SUCH a brat" while watching that kiss.

I just hated, hated, hated that comment. Young Snow was SUCH a lovely little girl. Not only she immediately embraced Regina as a new mother (and many other young girls who just lost their mother would NOT have responded so positively to the thought of their father re-marrying), but she was also willing to give up her heart's greatest desire, having her as a mother, to ensure her happiness. She was just so good. The fact that not only she endured years and years of torment for that goodness, and ended up irrevocably losing the chance to raise her first child, but that the writers also have the balls to try to reframe what happened with "I was such a brat" is just outrageous. It makes me see red. 

[stealinghome]

You’re working against the strain of just the sheer amount of hours and time. Nine months of 16, 17, 18 hours a day – it takes a real toll.

And this is exactly why I expect to see a lot less Snow White this season. Parents can try to balance work and family, but it cannot be done if you're working 18 hour days. A 9 hour work day sure, but if you want to spend quality time with your baby, you simply cannot work these crazy long days. It's especially hard when both parents are putting in those kinds of hours

I honestly don't mind the prospect of less Snow in 4A; S3 did enough of a hatchet job on her character that, like Regina in 3A, I think the character would probably benefit from being backburnered for half a season to let the wounds heal.

 

My concern, however, is what they'll do with Snow's limited screentime in 4A. Goodwin was clearly already on reduced duty in 3B, and that wasn't a problem in and of itself, but I was immensely frustrated by the fact that like 90% of her screentime went to the Snow/Regina relationship while Snow/Emma, and even to some extent Snow/David, was really neglected. That is my big concern for this upcoming (half-)season where Snow is concerned.

[KAOS Agent]

I'd just like Snow not to be the stupidest person on the planet in Season 4. The Snow/Zelena thing was just painful to watch. Hey, strange person wearing a giant emerald brooch whom I've never before seen! Why don't you be my midwife? Your only reference is my dead nanny? That's totally cool. We were probably friends in the missing year! Anything was better than that idiocy, even too much Snow/Regina.

 

That said, I fully expect an evil nanny or just random first time parenting shenanigans to be the majority of Snow's story. Most likely with Snow asking Regina for great parenting tips - which will make me want to slit my wrists. 

Edited July 3, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[Serena]

Yeah, I mean if they leave Snow out of any "running around like chickens with our heads cut off, trying to figure out stuff" plots, and give give her two or three one-on-one scenes with Emma, Charming, Henry or (more likely, knowing these writers) Regina, that would be a lot less work for Ginny AND a better show. But of course that would be too close to the dreaded "washing dishes" scenes.

[Camera One]

My concern, however, is what they'll do with Snow's limited screentime in 4A. Goodwin was clearly already on reduced duty in 3B, and that wasn't a problem in and of itself, but I was immensely frustrated by the fact that like 90% of her screentime went to the Snow/Regina relationship while Snow/Emma, and even to some extent Snow/David, was really neglected.

 

This is probably what I'm most angry about in Season 3.  They have this wonderful actress, and they are wasting her screentime.  

 

If they took her useless screentime discussing dreamshade and sprouting exposition ("Is that a cooking utensil?") in 3A and then acting like an idiot to showcase Zelena acting creepy and giving pep talks to Regina in 3B, think of how much the Emma/Snow relationship could have been developed, and even Snow herself.  

 

There is so much potential for Snow, even though she's a supposed boring "good guy".  Think of all the things she could have been dealing with - missing Emma during the missing year and trying to understand why her perspective had changed after living in NYC, maybe getting used to her lack of connection with memory-less Henry, figuring out how to deal with suddenly waking up 9 months pregnant and feeling like she has no control over her life, learning how to be a ruler for real (which would have occurred under Zelena's supposed reign of terror), maybe even dealing with her anger from having lost her father and her mother to villains which hits her now that she's back in the castle where she grew up.  

 

None of that would have taken too much time.  Yes, it could have caused the plot to "lose momentum" but it's not like the false contrived goosechase of the week was all that engaging to start with.  

 

And then even worse than that, they're making Snow White into the type of character that viewers either dismiss as stupid or get angry at for enabling Regina and ignoring Emma.  This is a complete disservice to the wonderful character that was created at the beginning of the series.

Edited July 3, 2014 by Camera One

[ShadowFacts]

 

Missing Emma during the missing year and trying to understand why her perspective had changed after living in NYC, maybe getting used to her lack of connection with memory-less Henry, figuring out how to deal with suddenly waking up 9 months pregnant and feeling like she has no control over her life, learning how to be a ruler for real (which would have occurred under Zelena's supposed reign of terror), maybe even dealing with her anger from having lost her father and her mother to villains which hits her now that she's back in the castle where she grew up.

 

I completely agree, Camera One, and each of those ideas would have taken a couple of minutes in a couple of episodes, that's all.  They could do this with all the salient life issues of the main characters and no one would miss those couple minutes away from the hijinks.  It would enrich the experience for viewers like us.  I could probably tolerate the plot holes and other annoyances a little better. 

[Camera One]

I just realized what's wrong with Mary Margaret.  It's those Regina-tears she got put in her eyes in "Second Star to the Right"!  It's not washing out, and they force her to see everything from Regina's perspective.  Someone please get her some L'Eau de Nostos Eye Drops to cure this condition.

Edited July 25, 2014 by Camera One

[stealinghome]

So I know literally nothing about Doctor Who, but I saw this gifset on tumblr and I have to say--this is absolutely, 110% how Snow White should have reacted to Regina after the curse. Like, I just--you cannot convince me that it is anything other than 500% contrived BS that Snow doesn't spit in Regina's face every time she sees her, let alone that she's the Biggest Cheerleader Ever.

[Camera One]

Snow hasn't been back to that palace since her father died, right?  So that would have been tough for Snow.  Too bad we never got to see any of that.  

[Aliasscape]

So I know literally nothing about Doctor Who, but I saw this gifset on tumblr and I have to say--this is absolutely, 110% how Snow White should have reacted to Regina after the curse. Like, I just--you cannot convince me that it is anything other than 500% contrived BS that Snow doesn't spit in Regina's face every time she sees her, let alone that she's the Biggest Cheerleader Ever.

Heh, I do watch Doctor Who and I was absolutely thrilled when that scene happened because seriously, a mother just doesn't go whatever, I forgive you, about the person that ROBBED HER OF HER BABY. Amy Pond (that red head)'s daughter was stolen from her and yes, she didn't get to meet her until adulthood. So when she got to see the person that did it she HATED her. I wanted to see Snow and Charming angry on their child's behalf. There are several gifsets to be found about Amy Pond's daughter and Emma Swan parallels. 

 

Goodness, we had a fly in the house, common housefly and we'd chased it for a bit  with a fly swatter and hadn't caught it. But it ended up disappearing on us. Hours later, I went to lift a plate and it flew out and startled me so badly I screamed and jammed my leg into a stove door. My mother, hearing that scream came running and while I limped off to take care of my leg, my mother went on a MISSION to destroy that fly. It'd been a nuisance before it scared me but now it was MARKED FOR DEATH. She plotted against it, arranging a light source to draw it and then forget the fly swatter, she just killed it in minutes without one. If my mother could become that determined something that made me bruise my leg wasn't going to live another 5 minutes, I'm pretty sure any person that caused me decades of intended torment would be so far from getting sympathy from her it would not be funny. I'm a grown woman but I'm sure that moment of my startled scream triggered my mother's instincts of protecting an infant. 

 

Leaping in the hat, facing the ogre, those were moments where I felt like Snow behaved like a mother.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Aliasscape

[MedievalGirl]

I'm a bit sad that Ginnifer chose to make fun of post-partum issues in her Comic Con video. I guess I feel a bit betrayed since I used Once to get through my own post-partum issues.

[Camera One]

I sort of cringed a little when watching that video since I wondered how people who experienced that would feel about it.  But I think that bit was scripted so I doubt the actress herself wrote it.  For what it's worth, I don't think they meant to make light of a serious issue.

[ShadowFacts]

I thought it was tone-deaf.  She may not have written it, but still, they could have done something cute and funny and baby-related if necessary, that took a little different tone. 

[stealinghome]

@Aliasscape, that's an awesome (and hilarious!) story about your mom. But I agree--I think a mother's protective instincts are always, always waiting to be triggered. :)

[Aliasscape]

@Aliasscape, that's an awesome (and hilarious!) story about your mom. But I agree--I think a mother's protective instincts are always, always waiting to be triggered. :)

Haha, my mother is awesome. She came back out and declared so proudly after she'd gotten it, "That fly is DEAD." But she was so serious still. Its death obviously did not make her hate it any less.I brought up the event to her today and she was like back in the moment and stated, "Shoulda known better than to mess with my baby *slight pause*...or her food." Ha, I had no idea the fact that it had been after my food was part of the trigger.

 

It reminds me how I feel like Snow doesn't try nearly as hard to feed Emma as she did when she was Mary Margaret. It had been one of my favorite aspects of their relationship in the first season. I'm trying to figure out if I'm going to feel warm fuzzies if Snow starts showing all her motherly instincts to Snowflake or just resentful on Emma's behalf. Now seeing Emma and Snowflake together, that interests me.  I do want her to have a good relationship with her brother.

[Dani-Ellie]

Now seeing Emma and Snowflake together, that interests me.  I do want her to have a good relationship with her brother.

 

Answering in the Emma thread.

[KingOfHearts]

Rewatching Broken. I'm doing a rewatch of S2 and S3 before the premiere!
 

So Snow's reaction to Emma after the curse broke bothered me. I understand she was excited and in the moment, but you could see a contrast with Charming's in it. Here's dialog from one of the scenes:
 

David: Don't push it, Snow.

Emma: You guys ready?

Mary Margaret: We need to talk.

Emma: I- Well, I don't-- I just- I don't wanna talk.

Mary Margaret: Well, I do, okay? Gold can wait, I can't. You're my daughter.. and.. I wanna talk to you. I know that we have talked, but we didn't know that we were talking. We've talked about things we probably shouldn't have even talked about; one night stands and the like.

 

 

Is it me or does Snow come off as bossy at times? Charming seems more like a sidekick a lot of the time. She's been trying to baby Emma since they reunited in Broken, and when she didn't get what she wanted, she replaced Emma. Snow is fine before she married Charming, but then after she married him, she got like this:

 

Snow: What can you say? What can you possibly say to make me feel better?
Charming: We just got married. That should be enough.
Snow: Regina found a way to ruin it. She always does. We have to do something.
Charming: Like what?
Snow: I don't know! Storm her castle, seal her magic. There must be some way to fight back.
Charming: She can't hurt us, you know that.
Snow: I know that she is determined and so am I.
Charming: Snow, she wants to take away our happiness. We can't win that fight on a battlefield.
Snow: No, so how do you suggest we win it?
Charming: By going on our honeymoon.
Snow: What?
Charming: That's the only way to show Regina that nothing she does can take away our happiness.
Snow: How can you even think of leaving the kingdom now after the kind of threats she made?
Charming: Threats. That's all they were. I mean, for all we know, that was just blusters.
Snow: She finds a way. She always finds a way!

 

Does she come off that way to anyone else? Bossy and kind of whiny? I love S1 Mary Margaret and Bandit Snow, don't get me wrong, but after she married Charming in the flashbacks and got uncursed in the present, her character changed somewhat.

Edited August 16, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[FabulousTater]

I don't know about bossy, but post-Broken I'd say she did get somewhat self-involved?? I understand her feeling grief and pain because she essentially lost a baby, but like, I've always been sort of baffled that Snow or Charming never asked Emma what her life was like. I assume Mary Margaret knew some general things, but it's been a head-scratcher for me that Snow has never approached Emma about wanting to know more about Emma's life. Just never even displayed mild curiosity. Snow's conversations concerning Emma have always been about what she and Charming lost. And TBH after the infamous s2 diner speech and the Echo Caves "not what I wanted" thing, Snow does come-off sounding very self-involved (which if it's not intentional -- the writers don't mean for Snow to sound self-involved -- then it actually is the fault of the writers for never writing anything else for Snow outside of grieving for the loss of a baby then immediately wanting another one to fill that void).
  
But, whatever. The writing for Snow (and so many other things) post season 1 is totally whack and the writers couldn't have done a better job of assassinating Snow's character if they'd been actually trying (hell, maybe they were trying). In fact, there's some clear evidence in the transcript @KingOfHearts posted that the writing in general (or at least logical character behavior) really went to the crapper. Particularly this bit:

Charming: That's the only way to show Regina that nothing she does can take away our happiness.
Snow: How can you even think of leaving the kingdom now after the kind of threats she made?
Charming: Threats. That's all they were. I mean, for all we know, that was just blusters.
Snow: She finds a way. She always finds a way!

I'm sorry, did Charming hit his head reeeeally hard and have amnesia here? Regina is "just blusters"??? 
 
Charmz, Regina sent the Huntsman to cut Snow's heart out, locked you in a dungeon, forced Snow to eat a poisoned apple that put her in a cursed coma that was only broken by True Love's kiss -- dude, you were there u should remember this -- then you and Snow both fought Regina to reclaim the kingdom and when you captured Regina and then let her go free ( which was all sorts of STUPID and irresponsible and basically you made yourselves accessories to Regina's crimes afterwards, btw) she actually stabbed Snow in the gut in an attempt to KILL HER. (And oh, in the "new" timeline, Regina had Snow tied to a stake and set her on fire!)  
 
All of that happened before the conversation that @KingOfHearts quoted above. (Well, I'm pretty sure. I could be wrong about the capturing Regina and setting her free bit. That could've been post wedding. But still, the rest applies). So what part of any of that is just idle threats and "bluster"?!
 
The writers may have a timeline made up of twine and post-it notes slapped together in the writers room somewhere, but I don't think they are actually reading it.

Edited August 16, 2014 by FabulousTater

[stealinghome]

I do think that Snow can be a little bossy (though more in non-life-or-death situations--she's pretty democratic when the war council is meeting), and I attribute it to growing up a sibling-less crown princess. She tends to assume that She Is Always Right, and can get a little huffy when she doesn't get her way or when people don't agree with her. It's a flaw, but not a disabling one.

 

Generally speaking, it doesn't bother me that Charming generally goes with the flow--I know several couples like that IRL, where one of them is kind of high maintenance and bossy and the other just goes with it, and it works (plus Snow *is* the monarch, David married in)--but I do wish the writers would let Charming challenge Snow more on the big decisions. One of his underrated character moments, imo, is when he takes Snow aside after she stops Regina's execution in 2x10 and calls her out on the consequences of her decision; I can't find a clip, but Snow says something like "If we kill her, we can't take it back, it sets us on a path we can't turn back from," and he says something like "but have you considered that saving her also sets us on a path of no return?" And there have been a few other moments in the series--when they discuss what to do with Regina in S2 (it's 2x20, I think?), or when he was telling her not to kill Cora with vengeance/anger in her heart--when Charming provides a really useful counterbalance to Snow's dumbn--I mean, opinion. And Snow could use a good dose of that more often.

 

The problem, I think, is that often Snow is actually wrong, but the show insists on saying she's right (coughDINERSPEECHcough), so people can't challenge her or it will point out just how wrong she is.

Edited August 16, 2014 by stealinghome

[FabulousTater]

[...] but I do wish the writers would let Charming challenge Snow more on the big decisions.

 

Hell ya. I have never wished this more than in the diner speech. After Emma had given her reasoning for wanting to use the bean portal right away to escape the doomsday device, and speaking to David she said that she just didn't want Henry to grow-up alone the way she did - I wish David had backed Emma on that one. I would've paid money for him to just look at Emma and tell her "Ok." and then turn to Snow and say, "Honey, I love you, but your plan is shit. We're getting our daughter and grandson out of here. NOW." 

 

...I would've paid lots of money for that scene.

 

And IA with this:

I do think that Snow can be a little bossy (though more in non-life-or-death situations--she's pretty democratic when the war council is meeting), and I attribute it to growing up a sibling-less crown princess. She tends to assume that She Is Always Right, and can get a little huffy when she doesn't get her way or when people don't agree with her. It's a flaw, but not a disabling one.

Edited August 16, 2014 by FabulousTater

[stealinghome]

After Emma had given her reasoning for wanting to use the bean portal right away to escape the doomsday device, and speaking to David she said that she just didn't want Henry to grow-up alone the way she did

You know, that's such a lovely moment for Emma and David's relationship, too, because the little look Charming gives Emma after her speech? It's like the lightbulb clicked on for him, like the puzzle pieces slotted into place and he finally gets Emma. (As opposed to Snow, who I think after 3x02 intellectually understands where Emma's coming from, but still doesn't quite get it.) I imagine it wasn't in the script, so kudos to Josh Dallas for it.

 

It's easy to forget, but as late as 2x22 Emma and David don't know each other that well; they care about each other, but they're just as obviously still feeling each other out in a lot of ways, and David's still letting Snow take point on dealing with Emma. But after 2x22, I think Charming starts "asserting" (that's not quite the right word but I can't come up with a better one) himself more where Emma is concerned; he starts to become more of an "equal" parent as Snow. I mean, 3A still didn't have enough Emma-Charming moments, but I do think there's a difference in how much Charming approaches Emma on his own in S3, and it begins in Neverland. It's like he knows what approach to take (the subtle and unobtrusive kind, because Emma is like a deer, she bolts at the first hint of danger :) ) now that he gets her.

 

Whereas I think Snow can be hobbled by the fact that she's a fixer. That's not a bad thing in and of itself; in fact, I'd say that in the grand scheme of things, it's an admirable impulse to have--that desire to just fix everything for everyone and make everyone happy. Buuuut she gets so focused on fixing things--making them "perfect" or "ideal"--that it can stop her from really hearing what other people are saying, or getting them as they are now. And that's definitely at play in her relationship with Emma. (And her fixer tendency is not helped by the fact that Snow lives a lot in the woulda-coulda-shouldas of life, while Charming just doesn't agonize over past events like that.)

 

Like, if her best friend (Ruby!) were to break up with her boyfriend, Snow is totally the bestie who's all "Let me set you up with another guy! He'll be even nicer and handsomer! And let's go dancing tonight, I'll buy you shots! And let's pamper ourselves and get mani-pedis because you deserve it!" instead of picking up on the fact that what Ruby wants to do is stay in, eat ice cream, and watch, I don't know, Titanic or something. She means so well, but isn't always that sensitive.

Edited August 16, 2014 by stealinghome

[KAOS Agent]

While I agree that Snow screwed up in her approach to Emma in "Broken", I'm not sure it was bossy or at least out of character to act the way she did. She knew as Mary Margaret that Emma had been looking for her parents her whole life, she knew that Emma considered her (Mary Margaret) family and Snow is a person who everywhere she turns meets strangers who become instant BFFs. I don't think anyone that Snow has met in her bandit backstory has ever had the type of walls Emma has or the ability to shut down emotionally like Emma. She just didn't understand how Emma could not be excited and happy that her friend really was her mother and wanted to know why. Maybe she even felt like she needed to know right now so that she could try to fix it. I also believe that she wasn't really comprehending how the whole fairy tales are real thing had just completely thrown Emma because as newly uncursed Snow, everything was completely believable and not at all strange, so she wasn't really looking at the whole picture with regards to her daughter and came on way too strong.

 

While David, who wasn't very close to Emma at all, could see the huge blinking Warning! Keep Out! signs flashing all around Emma and was smart enough to heed them and warn Snow to heed them as well, Snow just ignored it and pushed for answers because she was used to being able to call Emma out and demanding answers since she'd done it as Mary Margaret.  It's pretty typical Snow White behavior to push and seem rather demanding about what she wants/needs. I think Emma is one of the few people who doesn't give in to it or change her opinions to whatever Snow thinks. As said above, David occasionally questions Snow but usually he backs down and goes along with it (see: questions about Zelena the Friendly Midwife's references). But with Emma, she just does what she wants because in her mind, Snow's actions/opinions are often naive and stupid. She doesn't really even bother to argue with her mother about it. Look at the diner speech. Emma makes valid points several times about why Snow's plan was stupid and only pretends to buy into it in the end. Snow was all proud that Emma had bought into her silly reasoning and Emma was fine with letting her think that. Ultimately though Snow had actually had zero effect on Emma's decision. I highly doubt the writers intentionally write it this way, but maybe it is the residual monarchy stuff that affects everyone and makes them defer to Snow - all except Emma who grew up in a place that doesn't recognize the opinions of royalty as being more worthy than anyone else and thinks all this fairy tale stuff is crazy anyway.

[ShadowFacts]

 

Whereas I think Snow can be hobbled by the fact that she's a fixer. That's not a bad thing in and of itself; in fact, I'd say that in the grand scheme of things, it's an admirable impulse to have--that desire to just fix everything for everyone and make everyone happy. Buuuut she gets so focused on fixing things--making them "perfect" or "ideal"--that it can stop her from really hearing what other people are saying, or getting them as they are now.

 

Stealinghome, that makes me think of Jack in Lost.  Next thing we know, Snow will have a pill and alcohol problem.

 

 

[Shanna Marie]

I love S1 Mary Margaret and Bandit Snow, don't get me wrong, but after she married Charming in the flashbacks and got uncursed in the present, her character changed somewhat.

It actually kind of makes sense that she would have changed, given what she's been through since then and what she went through before. The series shows us a lot of Regina's damage, and we talk a lot about Emma's damage, but Snow has plenty of reasons to be screwed up herself. There was all the stuff that happened to her before -- her mother died and she partially blamed herself because she was given a way to save her and didn't use it, then she got a stepmother she loved but surely had to notice over time that her stepmother actually hated her, then her father died and her stepmother tried to have her killed, then she fell in love but had to give the guy up, she got put under the sleeping curse, she won a war and everything seemed to be okay, but Regina just kept coming after her. I think anyone would have snapped at that point. They keep talking about Regina never getting to win, but Snow's the one who could legitimately make that complaint because it just never stops for her. She survives, but Regina never gives up, with the sleeping curse, the threat of some vague future danger hanging over them from the time of their wedding, then the knowledge that she might have to be separated from her husband, then losing her baby, then under the curse finally meeting the perfect guy only to have him ripped away from her, then really having her morals tested when her heart is pushing her in a different direction, then being framed for murder, and all that. Then when the curse is broken, she gets her daughter back but knows she missed her entire childhood, she gets her husband back but knows both of them were with other people during the curse. Even when she wins, it's never over and it feels like a loss.

 

And part of the problem may be that she just fundamentally doesn't get Regina because they have such opposite worldviews. In Snow's world, when someone apologizes for a wrong, you let yourself see things from their perspective, understand what they were going through, accept their apology, forgive them and move on. Regina doesn't accept apologies, never sees things from other people's perspectives. Snow showed mercy to Regina and let her go and seemed to think that would end it all because who could hold a grudge against someone who showed mercy like that? Regina doesn't let things go, so she came up with something even worse. By the time of the wedding, I can understand Snow going a little nuts because she doesn't understand what's happening. It makes no sense to her because she can't think like Regina. Her coping mechanism for dealing with all the crap life has thrown at her has been to respond with relentless optimism and hope, with the idea that if she's good and kind and loving and forgiving, everything will eventually work out for her because people respond to love and kindness, but that's a kind of denial because she doesn't grasp that there really are people who are that twisted.

 

And there have been a few other moments in the series--when they discuss what to do with Regina in S2 (it's 2x20, I think?), or when he was telling her not to kill Cora with vengeance/anger in her heart--when Charming provides a really useful counterbalance to Snow's dumbn--I mean, opinion.

The Cora situation was one time when I disagreed with David. Cora needed killing, and Snow had every right to have anger in her heart. That whole idea that it's really horrible to kill with anger in your heart is so stupid because if someone has been so bad and dangerous that the only way to deal with them and protect others is to kill them, I would hope you'd be angry at them. Are you ever going to be in a situation where you need to kill someone you don't have bad feelings for? The only one I can think of is Regina sacrificing her father, and you can't tell me that was a better act than Snow killing Cora. When Snow realized she needed to kill Cora, I was cheering because it was like she finally learned her lesson that there are some people who will only take advantage of mercy and kindness and use it to cause more harm.

[KingOfHearts]

Thing is though, Snow knew Emma as Mary Margaret. She knew full well about Emma's walls. It wasn't until after the curse that Snow expected Emma to be someone else she couldn't be, namely her baby.

As far as bossiness goes... it's fine to take charge (Emma does that all the time), but a lot of the time Snow is either wrong or undermining others or both. She doesn't think about how others would feel about the decisions she makes. When Charming does a sidebar and tells her the facts, she doesn't listen to him. She thinks her way is best, when 80% of the time it's not.

Basing choices on feelings is not a good attribute of a leader at all, which is one major reason I dread seeing her rule Leopold's kingdom.

Edited August 16, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Jean]

Shanna I agree that Snow is damaged as much as anyone. Her story and character was set up so nicely in S1. Then it all went to the crapper. And here's where I rage at the writers for sacrificing Snow on the altar of St. Woegina. By making her into Woegina's biggest ass kisser I've stopped caring. You know how at first you feel sorry for abuse victims but then the ones that keep running back to their abuser and making all sorts of excuses for them and claiming they're really good and love them? Yeah the sympathy gets diluted.

Second, they've ignored all of Snow's damage, much like anyone not named Woegina. They never focus on what Woegina did to Snow or anyone. It's always evil bratty Snow ruined Woegina's life. That's legitimately their story and they will hold onto to it for all it's worth until the show gets cancelled.

As for Charming and Cora, I give him a pass on this one because they were clearly setting Snow up to be THE EVUL. I don't remember the scene anymore but was Charming unequivocally saying that killing Cora with anger was wrong or was he saying that Snow doing so would be wrong for her because he knew she would have a breakdown over it? Cause she did and he was right. I think he had visions of memory-less Snow from Heart of Darkness.

[stealinghome]

I don't remember the scene anymore but was Charming unequivocally saying that killing Cora with anger was wrong or was he saying that Snow doing so would be wrong for her because he knew she would have a breakdown over it? Cause she did and he was right. I think he had visions of memory-less Snow from Heart of Darkness.

This. Charming wasn't saying that killing Cora was wrong (in fact, he point-blank tells Snow that he has no problem with it). What he said was that killing Cora in anger/vengeance wasn't right *for Snow* because she wouldn't be able to live with herself afterward. Which, well, he was entirely right, so it's hard for me to judge him for saying that. (Regardless of whether *I* think Snow should've put her big girl pants on, Charming nailed her reaction.)

The problem, as always, lies in the way they had Snow take Cora out.

Thing is though, Snow knew Emma as Mary Margaret. She knew full well about Emma's walls. It wasn't until after the curse that Snow expected Emma to be someone else she couldn't be, namely her baby.

I give Snow something of a pass on this, because given the "we are both" stuff, I think she just fundamentally doesn't understand that to Emma, Mary Margaret for all intents and purposes died the moment the curse broke.

In Snow's eyes, Emma is still the exact same person she was before the curse break. Snow still feels close to Emma because of being Mary Margaret, so for her, I can see where the reaction was "We're already so close! This should just bring us closer! My daughter and I already loved her!" And then it's *super* confusing when Emma runs away like Snow is wearing 1-year-old gym socks. Because for her, she still *is* Mary Margaret, so why did that relationship suddenly change?

(Because for Emma, the Mary Margaret she knew is gone, and Snow is basically a different person, and her mother to boot...BUT also a person who remembers this deep bond with Emma. That had to have been a total mindfuck for Emma.)

Edited August 16, 2014 by stealinghome

[Rumsy4]

As far as bossiness goes... it's fine to take charge (Emma does that all the time), but a lot of the time Snow is either wrong or undermining others or both. She doesn't think about how others would feel about the decisions she makes. When Charming does a sidebar and tells her the facts, she doesn't listen to him. She thinks her way is best, when 80% of the time it's not.

Basing choices on feelings is not a good attribute of a leader at all, which is one major reason I dread seeing her rule Leopold's kingdom.

 

Agree. Snow lacks true insight on people who are fundamentally different from her, so she is unable to truly empathize with them. Unfortunately, she thinks she does, and confuses sympathy with empathy. That's why she has such a hard time connecting with Emma, or understanding how badly Neal damaged her. She really makes a horrible ruler. She puts her peace of mind about doing the Right Thing, over making decisions for the good of their Subjects and her own child, and grandchild, at times (Stupid Diner Speech). I feel that Charming would be a better ruler, if he did not give in to Snow so much.

 

The other problem is that Snow comes across as a very unrealistic person for being so forgiving towards Regina when it comes to Emma. No mother would be able to get past that terrible loss. She missed Emma's entire childhood and life, and Emma grew up without anyone nd had a hard life. Yes--Snow has a lot of false guilt about Daniel, and many of her actions can be explained away based on that, but Snow forgiving Regina over Emma is essentially, BS, and the most unbelievable part of OUAT, even taking in all the fantasy elements. And the worst thing is, the Writers present it as though Snow really should bear responsibility for "ruining" Regina's life, and celebrate the fact that she spends so much time apologizing to her. 

 

Shanna I agree that Snow is damaged as much as anyone. Her story and character was set up so nicely in S1. Then it all went to the crapper. And here's where I rage at the writers for sacrificing Snow on the altar of St. Woegina. By making her into Woegina's biggest ass kisser I've stopped caring. You know how at first you feel sorry for abuse victims but then the ones that keep running back to their abuser and making all sorts of excuses for them and claiming they're really good and love them? Yeah the sympathy gets diluted.

 

Honestly, I've lost a little respect for both Snow and Emma over this. Emma is certainly nowhere like Snow (thank goodness!), but she does make a lot of excuses for Regina. I'm still seething over the fact that one of the first things Emma does after returning back from having just seen Regina burn her mother alive, is to tell Marian that Regina has changed, and introduce them to each other. When it's plot that predominantly drives the story, it ruins characterization.

[KingOfHearts]

Forgiving Regina is one thing, but enabling her and throwing everyone else under the bus is another. Executing Regina was not revenge or a sinful thing to do - it was for the protection of her people. Rulers have to make tough choices like that for the good of their subjects. It's not personal, but with Snow, everything is personal. She can't be objective or straight-faced about anything. This is where Emma and Snow have a huge disconnect.

 

Snow is not helping Regina because of compassion - it's because she feels guilty about Daniel and killing Cora. She feels like she has to make "amends", which with what she's doing is not going to work. Forgiveness is about moving on, not trying to kiss up because you think you owe a debt. She spends more time trying to "fix" Regina than with her own daughter. That is not "goodness" or healthy, Snow - it's Stockholm Syndrome.

 

Sometimes I wonder by what moral standard Snow holds herself at. Is there some kind of Hero Code book we don't know about? Who is to say what's "good" here?

Edited August 16, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

I feel that Charming would be a better ruler, if he did not give in to Snow so much.

For real. He's got the proper mix of wanting to be good but also being pragmatic, and he's much more willing than Snow to make the hard decisions for the good of their subjects.

 

The other problem is that Snow comes across as a very unrealistic person for being so forgiving towards Regina when it comes to Emma. No mother would be able to get past that terrible loss.

Actually, the one that really drives me up the wall is the way Snow instantly forgave Gepetto (side note: does Charming still not know about the wardrobe lie?). And worse, she was made out to be a bad person for having a normal human reaction to his massive lie! That's the one that I just can't even with, with the writers. That made it so obvious to me that they never intend to deal with Emma+Snowing in any even halfway realistic manner. Ugh.

 

(And I don't really understand why they did it, honestly. Since they were basically writing Pinocchio and Gepetto off with/after 2x18 anyway, just have the Charmings say "we're happy for you, and we're not going to punish you, but we never want to see you again." That would've been a much more human reaction on their part.)

[Camera One]

Forgiving Regina is one thing, but enabling her and throwing everyone else under the bus is another. Executing Regina was not revenge or a sinful thing to do - it was for the protection of her people. Rulers have to make tough choices like that for the good of their subjects.

 

I hate how they write for Snow, but that one I can understand since Snow grew up with Regina as an older sister so I can see why she couldn't get herself to execute Regina.  Not to mention a lot of politicians now who are good leaders and good rulers would also not execute prisoners in countries which no longer use capital punishment.  If they could build a magical prison for Rumplestiltskin, there is no reason why they couldn't for Regina.  That is what logically should have happened.  The banishment to her castle was just dumb and a very sloppy plot point.

 

The problem, as always, is the plot needed to be written with Regina able to cast the curse in the first place, so the plot always needed to give a reason why she was free to do so.  They needed to have Regina be out and about prior to the Curse.  There were a dozen smarter ways to do this than what they ended up with (eg. like having Regina escape, like not having Regina get caught, like not writing 101 different encounters between Snow and Regina during the outlaw years etc.).  I just can't get myself to be angry at Snow because at all times, I am also thinking about why the writers decided to write the horrible story that they did, and it is obvious.  

 

The writers want to write a deeper character story, and they have Ginnifer Goodwin, who is this awesome actress.  The easiest way (but not the best way) to give her *something* meaty to play as an actress, and an actual arc, is to give Snow an emotional dilemma/internal battle as to what should be done with Regina.  Thus, they gave her the scene with Snow and Regina at the prison cell.  Unfortunately, the writers are unable to see and/or they don't care, that what they are writing makes Snow come off as idiotic, naive, and dumb.  As Shanna Marie said really eloquently above, Snow has the potential to be a really complex character and there were so many avenues to pursue which would give Goodwin a real chance to shine WITHOUT destroying Snow's character.  But these writers always choose the easier route for them, because they don't want to devote the screentime to it.  

 

It's the same reason for the Gepetto stuff (and the Dreamshade problem, and the Lost Year back in the Enchanted Forest).  The writers just do not want to give Snow and Charming and Emma screentime to deal with that fallout, probably because it has nothing to do with Regina or Rumple.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

I hate how they write for Snow, but that one I can understand since Snow grew up with Regina as an older sister so I can see why she couldn't get herself to execute Regina.  Not to mention a lot of politicians now who are good leaders and good rulers would also not execute prisoners in countries which no longer use capital punishment.  If they could build a magical prison for Rumplestiltskin, there is no reason why they couldn't for Regina.  That is what logically should have happened.  The banishment to her castle was just dumb and a very sloppy plot point.

There could be very valid reasons why Snow didn't want to execute Regina, but they didn't go off of that. iirc, the reason Snow didn't want to do it was because felt like it was the wrong thing to do entirely, not because she felt compassionate toward Regina. If, for some reason, the magical prison wasn't available (maybe it wasn't ready or they had no means to construct it yet), there really were no other options other than executing Regina. Anything else put the lives of the citizens at stake because Regina would be gaining her power back soon.

 

I agree Snow is a very potentially complex and awesome character, but ever since S2 she's gotten blander and blander. I loved the dynamics in S1 of Bandit Snow and Mary Margaret, because neither of them perfectly aligned with the original Snow White persona. They both added a new level of depth to the icon, which made her more relatable and human. S2, especially with Cricket Game, the dark heart and diner speech, really killed her character.

 

(Then S3 comes along with the Echo Cave Speech and Midwife Zelena...)

Edited August 16, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[FabulousTater]

I just can't get myself to be angry at Snow because at all times, I am also thinking about why the writers decided to write the horrible story that they did, and it is obvious.

But see, I can’t pick and choose when to give a character a pass because “Oh, the writing…” versus, “Well, this character is just crap.”

 

Take Woegina, for example. I hate Woegina. The character absolutely grates on my nerves 99.9% of the time. Yes, it’s the fault of the writing, but because of the writing the resultant character they have created is crap and therefore I hate that character.

That’s why I can’t sit here and give Snow endless amounts of benefit of the doubt just because I could headcanon it all as well, “that’s not what the writers meant…” or “Oh, the writing..” I feel like it would be hypocritical of me to despise Regina’s character (among others) but not Snow’s when they are pretty much equally crappy characters. I’m fed up, sick and tired of giving Snow the benefit of the doubt, tired of saying to myself “that’s not what she meant….the writers just worded it wrong…” AND tired of giving the writers the benefit of the doubt. They’re all crap. And they shall all equally share my disdain.

I’ll stop hating on the characters when the writers stop writing crap characters.

Edited August 16, 2014 by FabulousTater

[Camera One]

But see, I can’t pick and choose when to give a character a pass because “Oh, the writing…” versus, “Well, this character is just crap.”

 

I'm not picking and choosing when to give characters a "pass".  I'm the type of person who can't help thinking about why something is done/written a certain way, so that affects how I feel about the characters.  It actually helps me to enjoy the show more, and trying to have a bigger perspective allows me to enjoy all the main characters, even the ones I feel are written poorly.  I wouldn't enjoy the show and I wouldn't be able to watch every scene in it, if I'm hating the characters which made me watch the show in the first place!  This allows me to watch every scene in each episode, and usually enjoy it on some level (or at least find some moments to enjoy).  Or if not, I can derive some enjoyment from analyzing how different subplots are allocated and why/how it's constructed a certain way.