Mary Margaret: Is Snow White Again?

[orza]

It seems like the scripts make distinctions, with "Snow White" for her dialogue in flashbacks and "Mary Margaret" for the present, and ditto with a lot of the other characters.

They do that with all the characters that have different cursed names. We have seen script teases that say "Mr. Gold" and "Rumplestiltskin" depending on which version of the character we are seeing.

[KingOfHearts]

 

(As for Rumple's name--I've always just assumed that he didn't have a last name, as a lot of peasants in many countries didn't for years and years, and that the curse just gave him a last name;  he was close to no one, apparently, and so most people would have called him Mr. Gold.)

It's Pan, obviously. ;)

 

 

Yes, I thought Blanchard was clever since it does mean white.  Apparently, it's an obsolete term for "white horse".

Yes. "Mary" is often related to purity, as is "snow".

[Mathius]

No, s/he just has a different opinion than some of the posters here. That's allowed.

 

But his/her opinion is constantly based around the business side of the show, which makes it sound like s/he has some behind-the-scenes sources, and this gets me curious as to what else s/he knows that s/he could share with us.  S/he mentioned an ABC-mandated change in show direction during Season 2, and I'm still wanting to know more about that.

[KingOfHearts]

I was watching that episode where Team Snow invades King George's castle to save Charming. Along the way, many guards are seriously injured, some by Snow herself. In one scene, Grumpy shoves a pickaxe through a guard's back and pretty much kills him. Snow actually smiles in relief! So yeah, heroes don't kill... unless you're Charming or in S1.

 

If Mary Margaret of today saw Bandit Snow, she'd probably think her heart was black as coal.

Edited December 4, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[InsertWordHere]

It bugs me that they didn't use the dwarves and Granny to help storm Arthur's castle. They were pretty useful when they helped storm George's castle.

[Mathius]

Adam & Eddy totally flipped Snow on a dime in the recent episode.  Her interactions with Emma were S1-3A levels of heartfelt.....and it just didn't work when we got the exact opposite in just about every episode preceding this one.  Things like Snow saying she wants to spend her last moments with Emma are laughable, my response was "NOW you want to spend time with your daughter?  When there's a guarantee it won't be a very long time?"  And once again, a hug apparently makes it all better, and Emma will never get to call Snow out on what a horrible mother she's been.

Edited December 8, 2015 by Mathius

[YaddaYadda]

I realize that Mary Margaret has learned nothing about her daughter, still doesn't really know her at all.

 

Why would she assume right away that Emma going to the UW is about darkness, or whatever it is that went through her soft as hell brain. 

 

"You just got rid of the darkness."

 

The hell! She got rid of the darkness because of the guy who sacrificed himself so that she could get rid of it. 

 

It doesn't sit well with me that even after the eggnapping mess, and Emma's sacrifice, Hook's death, that Mary Margaret still sees the world as black and white. You're a hero, or you're a villain, end of story.

[Camera One]

Mary Margaret was responding to the fact that it's a one-for-one trade and there's a risk Emma could get darkness reinserted to her again, after she had been through so much.  I don't think it's a crime for her to worry about that.  It's not like it's an everyday thing for someone to go to hell to retrieve someone who has already died, even in the Enchanted Forest.  Snow chose not to do a one-to-one trade to save her own mother, so she knows how much someone would wish to save someone they loved but then resist it because they know they shouldn't.

Edited December 12, 2015 by Camera One

[mjgchick]

I find it funny that people are harping on Emma not being a badass (She's always badass.) when it's Mary Margaret who has lost all sense of her old self and for the bad. Seeing her go down by Zelena of all people was just sad to see.

[Camera One]

That's because no one cares about Snow.  For sure Snow has been damaged so much more than Emma.

[Curio]

I just watched Ginny present at the Disneyland 60th Anniversary special, and she talked about how she loves everything Disney and genuinely seemed giddy and joyful to be there. And then it made me sad that she doesn't seem to have that kind of joy when she portrays Snow anymore.

 

How do you fix a problem like Mary Margaret? I feel like everyone has written her off at this point as a boring background parent who occasionally chimes in, but I still feel like she can be a huge part of Emma's life and the main story. I'm just...struggling to think of any solutions right now.

Edited February 22, 2016 by Curio

[Camera One]

I agree, Curio, but I have pretty much lost hope.  3A was a perfect opportunity, but after "Lost Girl" (which was initially not supposed to be about Snow/Emma), nothing.  3B would have been a perfect opportunity, but apparently Idiot Snow drinking orange juice was the best use of her limited screentime due to the pregnancy.  4A would have been a perfect opportunity, but MM admitting to and condoning adultery was more pressing.  4B would have been the perfect opportunity but nope, it's high time we made Snow into a lying and heartless eggsnatcher who ruins lives.    5A would have been the perfect opportunity but let's allot zero scenes for Dark Emma and her parents.  

 

Even aside from Emma, the lines they give Mary Margaret are either expositional, dumb, obvious, or just playing devil's advocate for no reason.  The friend I watch with thinks Snow is a dumbass because that's how they write her (see: Zelena tricking Snow in 5A... who couldn't see that a mile away).  Her lines have no more cohesion than Robin Hood's.  It's just not as obvious since Mary Margaret/Snow was an established character from Season 1.  As I've said before, Snow and David's lines are interchangeable, and it is very difficult to tell who said what if you try looking at transcript without the speaker's names written in.

 

If they went out of their way to do an Emma/Snow or an Emma/David episode every half season, like they do with Emma/Regina, or the various ships, then at least we'd get a bone.  Emma and her parents' reconciliation scenes are always tacked on to an episode about something else entirely and featuring other characters.  I think the actresses have it in them to revive the mother/daughter relationship which the writers have destroyed through negligence, if they were given the screentime to do so and a thought-out arc.  But clearly, this bores A&E&J, or it would have happened already.

Edited February 22, 2016 by Camera One

[Curio]

I don't want to lose hope, but it's clear to me that the writers aren't interested in Snow anymore. (Or at the very least, not as interested as they were in Season 1.) Adam will always say his politically correct "Snow and Charming remain a huge part of our storytelling" jargon, but what that translates into is, "They'll have one centric episode and then float around in the background for most of the time. Maybe there will be some important expositional dialogue here and there."

 

Snow wavers on this strange line between being naively optimistic and defeated. She gives monologues about always having hope, but then she talks about how Dark Emma is a lost cause and it's not Emma anymore. Maybe they need to choose one side and stick to their guns. Emma is the realist, Regina is the pessimist, Belle is the whatever-ist, so let's make Snow the ultimate optimist. Let's make her so peppy and happy that she'd want to be best friends with Anna. If Snow is at least able to physically bound into a room so full of hope and energy, maybe that would bring some spark back into her character? I think she verbally says lines that should come off as hopeful, but the physical performance looks like melancholy...if that makes any sense. It's like she's saying these lines to herself, but she's not quite sure she even believes them anymore.

Edited February 22, 2016 by Curio

[Rumsy4]

It's mind-boggling how completely the writers have sidelined and destroyed Snow. They made her "morally gray" in order to prop up villains (well--mostly Regina). In doing so, they seem to have lost sight of her core character. She is like a rudderless boat drifting in the sea. 

[Curio]

She is like a rudderless boat drifting in the sea. 

 

That's the perfect analogy. Say, isn't there a character who might be able to sail his ship over to this drifting boat and save it? Belle is less three-dimensional than Snow is, and even she pops on screen when she's paired with Hook in a scene. Maybe Snow just needs to spend a few episodes having a one-on-one adventure with her soon-to-be son-in-law to get her groove back. (Or maybe she just needs to ask Emperor Cuzco how he got his groove back.)

 

It's pretty depressing that Snow and Emma have closer relationships with Regina now than they do with each other.

Edited February 22, 2016 by Curio

[KingOfHearts]

 

Belle is less three-dimensional than Snow is, and even she pops on screen when she's paired with Hook in a scene.

What's sad is Belle gets more development than Snow does these days. 

 

 

It's pretty depressing that Snow and Emma have closer relationships with Regina now than they do with each other.

Yeah, I guess it's pretty easy to have a closer relationship with a mass murderer than your own daughter.

[Curio]

What's sad is Belle gets more development than Snow does these days. 

 

In 5A, I'd say that's true.

 

What also gets me about Snow's steady decline from Season 3 to now is that a lot of people blame it on Charming and Snow having the do-over baby. While that has some part of it, it's a poor argument to make because we have Regina who now has to look over three kids—one of which is also a newborn baby—and you don't see her decreasing in importance. Plus, the kids and babies are hardly ever on the show, so it turns into a nonissue. So what is the issue? Just lack of screen time? Not enough adventures with Emma? Annoying personality traits? 

Edited February 22, 2016 by Curio

[KingOfHearts]

 

What's sad is Belle gets more development than Snow does these days.

 

In 5A, I'd say that's true.

I should rephrase that (even though it's probably true) - Belle gets more plot movement than Snow these days. She doesn't necessarily develop into new territory, but she gets more things to do and actually gets a variety of emotions. There's much more focus on her personal feelings and desires than Mary Margaret's. While Belle is going off on adventures with princesses and going through the motions with Rumple, Snow just kinda sits back and says dumb things.*

 

Belle used to be more like her, but since S4 she's been given a little more to do. Not saying she's an active character with good development or anything (Lord knows that's not true), but she's closer to A&E's good graces than Mary Margaret is -- even if only a few inches.

 

* Snow got that little adventure with Charming in 5x04, but it didn't cover very much of the episode and that's really all she did through all of 5A.

Edited February 22, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[mjgchick]

I hope they do something with Snow in 5b. Since Regina is in a good place she SHOULD be there more for her daughter who even though is strong will need her parents for support. Also have Snow meet with someone she has unfinished business with or something.

[tri4335]

My issue is that I feel that Snow can never have a "real" relationship with Emma.  If she did then they would have to address the elephant in the room, which is the fact that Regina is responsible for all the misery in their lives. Once A & E decided that Regina was the victim, Snowing and Emma could never resolve their issues or have any meaningful scenes.  To have those scenes would rightfully paint Regina in a bad light and that is that.  So what we get now are these starts and stops between the characters that are always resolved with a hug and no shade thrown on Regina.  Everything wrong with their relationship is Emma's fault and MM/Snow has become a shadow of her former self, whether it be MM who had hope and strength in adversity or Snow who as a badass.

[Curio]

It's a shame that David seems to have benefitted from the Season 2B shift in focus but Snow got destroyed. I kind of wish there'd be another curse so they could reboot Snow's character again. At this point, I'd take Season 1 Mary Margaret over current Snow. At least we'd have scenes like this again:

 

[Camera One]

I look back on a lot of shows, and often, the "boring" friendships in the first season are no longer by the later seasons.  Sometimes, it's a case of (or rumors of) the actors hating each others' guts.  Not sure if that's the case here.

[Curio]

Jen and Ginny were good friends before the show even started, so I don't think that's the case. But I do notice a different "chemistry" between them on camera in the later seasons, but maybe that's just a result of Snow's character no longer being as close to Emma as she used to be. 

[InsertWordHere]

"I don't want to be Mary Margaret anymore. I want to be Snow White."

 

I thought about this thread and I cheered. 

[mjgchick]

I cheered so badly through out this episode. I loved that she even got a chance to mention that Regina took her kingdom and is why she didn't get to raise Emma. You go girl.

Mean while Bailee said tonight was her first on screen kiss and I just aww'd.

[HoodlumSheep]

*failing intensely*

Snow White!!!! SNOW WHITE!!!!!

This episode was everything and then some!

I just hope this character (re?)development sticks!!!!

And it was nice to finally know who taught her how use a bow and arrow.

[Rumsy4]

YAAAAAAAAAS! I was thinking about this thread too. And thank god David is going to stop calling her Mary Margaret. It always grated like nails on a chalkboard.

 

Best Snow-centric in a long while. Bailee Madison was perfect!

[InsertWordHere]

And it was nice to finally know who taught her how use a bow and arrow.

While Herc is technically "an archer from another forest" I still think it would have worked better if Robin had taught her. But that wouldn't have worked for the Outlaw Queen story, I guess. 

[Rumsy4]

It's funny how quickly all these people pick up these skills. Anna taught David to sword fight in a day. Hercules taught Snow to be an archer in a day. I wish I had that talent. lol

[mjgchick]

But I bet it took Emma weeks to learn to do the flamboyant Hook turn with a sword. :)

Ginny must have enjoyed her script tonight. An actual story where a character progresses after regressing for so long? It was really nice to see. Snows progress even got to help find Hook. This is the type of adventure I want to see on the show.

Edited March 14, 2016 by mjgchick

[Delphi]

Yassss. Snow I missed you so. Welcome back.

[Faemonic]

Aha! I wondered why the title of the thread changed from Snow White Doesn't Live Here Anymore to Is Snow White Again.

 

(My first thought was, "Oh my god Karen you can't just ask if people are Snow White again." :-P)

 

Is Bailee Madison (young Snow's actress) in her teens now?

Edited March 14, 2016 by Faemonic

[mjgchick]

I think she's 15/16. She's taller than Lana now. lol

[HoodlumSheep]

Like the new thread title! Hopefully we don't have to change it back.

[Camera One]

Let's see if this Snow White thing is a one-off, or in name only...

[Mathius]

My only issue is when Snow was finally able to bring up what she lost due to Regina, to Regina's face....and Regina responds with casually dismissing it ("And then you found her"...no, Regina, Emma found Snow, not the other way around), and then dropped the line "You made me your friend, by never giving up on me". To have a line like that come DIRECTLY after a Snow's line about all Regina took from her just hammers home how absurd and illogical this "friendship" is. And yet these writers are completely blind to this.

Also, it's Regina who gives the pep talk. Heaven forbid it be Emma.

Edited March 14, 2016 by Mathius

[Camera One]

The writers didn't even bother to give Emma and Snow a private moment in this one.  It doesn't help that someone even tweeted the writer Andrew Chambliss praising him for how well written Snow and Regina's scene was.  

[scenicbyway]

I'll believe Snow is really Snow for good if she's still acting the same way in the next episode and next season.  I just don't believe it will stick.  I thought her whole "Emma you didn't know me in the Enchanted Forest" talk to Emma was crap.  Emma did get a glimpse of Snow when the two jumped through the portal in Season 2.  Remember Snow and Emma on an adventure together?  "Team Princess"  the one where they meet Emma's true love?  Ugh.

[Camera One]

I was really hoping to hear what Emma would say in response, but Emma didn't even get a line there!  Way to tease...

[YaddaYadda]

I'll believe Snow is really Snow for good if she's still acting the same way in the next episode and next season.  I just don't believe it will stick.  I thought her whole "Emma you didn't know me in the Enchanted Forest" talk to Emma was crap.  Emma did get a glimpse of Snow when the two jumped through the portal in Season 2.  Remember Snow and Emma on an adventure together?  "Team Princess"  the one where they meet Emma's true love?  Ugh.

 

Yeah she did. I thought Emma half-heatedly smiled at her.

 

Slapping the name Snow on MM and having her behave like MM the rest of the season will not do it. Ever.

[Camera One]

I saw a bit of the animated Snow White tonight... so Regina didn't make Snow White into her servant at any point?  So why was she so used to taking care of the Dwarves' house?

 

I wonder if we will find out how Snow White got so in tune with birds.

 

What was Snow White's reaction to finding out Cora did magic?  Was that accepted as normal in the Enchanted Forest?  Or frowned upon?

 

Did Snow White have no clue that Regina was evil until The Huntsman tried to kill her?

 

Did Snow ever find out definitively that Regina killed Leopold?

 

Can we have Josh Dallas sing "One Song"?  

[KingOfHearts]

wonder if we will find out how Snow White got so in tune with birds.

She ran into Pocahontas as a teenager. Snow helped her fight off the Virginia Company with her bow. During so, she urged her to follow her heart and date John Smith. In exchange, Pocahontas taught her the colors of the wind.

Edited April 8, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

Also, it is a magical Virginia realm. Not the Virginia in our world.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Also, it is a magical Virginia realm. Not the Virginia in our world.

Yes, like Fictional Scotland AKA Dun'Broch or Fictional Scandanavia AKA Arendelle. 

[InsertWordHere]

Props to Ginny Goodwin for really letting that Snow White spark shine in this episode. It wasn't the writing, because that dialogue could have easily been said by Mary Margaret, but the attitude was all Snow. 

[angora]

Oh man, I loved her so much last night.  The whole "Hell, YES, I'm coming with you!" thing, the gung-ho action-ness, having an actual conversation with her daughter and assuring her that it's not her fault they went with her to the Underworld?  Awesome all-around.  I was equal parts hopeful/doubtful after the big "I don't want to be Mary Margaret anymore" declaration, but last night, the show definitely ponied up and gave us some Snow.

[Rumsy4]

Ginny was fantastic! She really channeled badass Snow White. Or S2 Team Princess Snow. Now I'm wondering how much of Mary Margaret was a deliberate choice on the part of writers, and how much was just bad writing for Snow all this time. At least they seem to have identified their mistake and are rectifying it. 

Edited April 12, 2016 by Rumsy4

[HoodlumSheep]

Snow has been great this half-season (or at least great in comparison to her character in the past 2.5-3 seasons).

[Rumsy4]

I am not happy that Snow left the Underworld w/o checking the fate of her parents. I didn't expect a long scene, but I thought we would get something. I guess David won't be looking for his parents' gravestones either. If you ask A&E, they'll probably say it happened offscreen. Hmph!

 

Even Auntie Em is more important than Snow's parents, apparently. 

Edited April 21, 2016 by Rumsy4

[KingOfHearts]

 

I am not happy that Snow left the Underworld w/o checking the fate of her parents. I didn't expect a long scene, but I thought we would get something. I guess David won't be looking for his parents' gravestones either. If you ask A&E, they'll probably say it happened offscreen. Hmph!

I made up a "deleted scene" in my head. Regina gave Snow the last of the Dun'Broch ale. Snow and David went to the graveyard in 5x13 to check on their parents. They noticed the stones were tipped. Snow insisted using the ale on David's dad, since she hadn't met him yet. So they talked to his dad, heard he moved on, and that his unfinished business was abandoning his sons. They were given a warning about James (Papa Charming had moved on before James arrived in Underbrooke, but heard about him from Olympus), then departed. Shortly afterwards, Snow found Hercules' tombstone.

 

Later offscreen, Snow found out the tipped stone meant someone moved on and she was relieved.

 

 

Even Auntie Em is more important than Snow's parents, apparently.

One word: iconography. Auntie Em is more iconic than Snow's parents, therefore she takes priority.

Edited April 21, 2016 by KingOfHearts