Relationships in The Quad: What the Hells?

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

17 hours ago, lynny said:

Yeah but I bought Aeryn Sun and John. I don’t see it with Dutch and Johnny. I think that there is always some wishful thinking in the shipper realm and I usually understand it. But the Johnny Dutch ship is something I’ve never understood. 

Shipping can be like an extreme emotion, in that its sometimes irrational.  I like who I like, and D/J is who I like & what I want to see happen.

Does a D/J endgame (have to) make sense to everyone?  Absolutely not.  But to those like me?  It (would) make all kinds of sense.

Edited September 18, 2018 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[MissLucas]

I have no beef in this game. I can see Dutch ending up with Johnny or D'avin or all on her own. I find that intriguing and fascinating. I used Aeryn and Crichton just to illustrate the underlying dynamics of an opposites-attract pairing. But they were written as the OTP from the get-go. This show has no OTP (except Pree and Gared) hence this whole thread. As for seeing sexual or romantic chemistry between Johnny and Dutch - much of that lies in the eye of the beholder. I never saw any of of that between Harry and Sally either.

Edited September 18, 2018 by MissLucas

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

I say this having no idea if Fairuza will survive the season finale tonight or (if does) will be back at all in S5, but if she is, I'm putting the prediction out there that we will see a Zeph/Fairuza pairing next season.

They've shared the most screen-time (so far) and have had good scenes.  Depending on what we see in this season's finale, I've got a strangely good vibe about this one.   [..... now watch Fairuza die]

Just putting it out there as something to possibly happen in terms of pairings, going forward.

Edited September 22, 2018 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

On 9/3/2018 at 11:05 PM, tessaray said:

D/J wouldn't be a total shocker. Of course, if at the very end of S4, we see them together I'm going to assume it's a con or a hallucination, because that sounds like something this show would do.  (I'm so cynical.)

I am so annoyed and angry right now - yes, even with seeing D/J being 'married'.  They really did it.  Put them together just so they can pull them apart again whenever either Dutch (and/or Johnny) realizes this new 'reality' is not real or someone pulls them out of the created hallucinatory world.

This is cruel to a hardcore D/J shipper.  Giving us 10 months of hopes and dreams, only to [most likely] trash said hopes & dreams shortly into the new season when it comes back.  Curse you, ML & new showrunner & writers.  Not cool.  At all.

[snowwhyte]

I M a D/J shipper but not hard-core. I would like to think that having D/J try a relationship without their baggage will make them realise that they have feelings for one another and should be together. Seeing the look D'avin gave Dutch I really hope there isn't an amnesiac love triangle. 

We didn't really consider Dutch to be Johnny's shock love interest because she is currently in a relationship with D'avin and Dutch and Johnny together isn't that much of a shock for many people. I wouldn't even have said that this is Johnny getting a shock love interest. This is Johnny being emotionally manipulated by The Lady. He didn't make a choice to commit to Dutch. It isn't real. They are both being violated.

[sjohnson]

It is obvious Johnny is happy. The horror of the D/J hallucination is that Dutch isn't cool, she's a wife, i.e., a victim. Marriage is rape, etc. Previously the whole thing about Dutch/D'Avin is how it's cool precisely because their relationship is strictly physical, and Dutch doesn't need D'Avin for that. Need is needy and needy isn't cool. Previously Dutch/Johnny is Platonic, therefore his molding his life around her is just a friend being friendly, and a fitting tribute to Dutch's superiority. Now rejecting Johnny isn't telling him, thanks but what have you done for me lately? Now it will be a resounding affirmation of Dutch's strength. She can be both a conquering hero and a suffering hero for ditching the ball and chain. Now taking the taller, more muscular, more butch non-nerd will be noble, even, maybe especially, if it's only temporary. 

The interesting thing is the hallucination undoes the fraternal relationship. This contradicts how the Lady uses actual memories and real emotions to manipulate, something clearly shown. Here the Lady simply overwrites memory and deletes emotions, in service of the plot. 

[tessaray]

11 hours ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

This is cruel to a hardcore D/J shipper.  Giving us 10 months of hopes and dreams, only to [most likely] trash said hopes & dreams shortly into the new season when it comes back.  Curse you, ML & new showrunner & writers.  Not cool.  At all.

I stayed up late last night to watch the finale and thought about my earlier comment as that played out.  It's obviously really complicated in some ways, as @sjohnson alludes to above (I'm still processing that aspect) but the interesting thing is that for a nano second, Dutch is happy. So maybe I'm going to get my Casablanca ending, because D/J will always have this moment, even if they don't end up together. 

If it weren't so problematic, I'd wonder if they were trying to give the D/J shippers a small gift. (Before taking the story in a different direction and crushing them entirely.)

[MissLucas]

I definitely took the marital bliss scene as a gift for the shippers. Most genre shows with a shipping factor (i.e. almost all) love to use AR/dream scenarios to please or tease the shipping folks - depending on your POV. 

[lynny]

I didn’t see it as a gift for shippers at all. I kind of found it funny that the only way Dutch and Johnny get together is if their entire history and personalities are erased and they are living out a nightmare. 

[Chick2Chic]

34 minutes ago, lynny said:

I didn’t see it as a gift for shippers at all. I kind of found it funny that the only way Dutch and Johnny get together is if their entire history and personalities are erased and they are living out a nightmare. 

Same for me on the gift front. I also didn't see anything from the showrunner's twitter account that leans into anything shippery. Most showrunners and writers I find make their preferences and gifts for shippers known because they can't be silent & want recognition in those scenarios. Plus, if they want Dutch and John together romantically for real, they will just put them together in canon. Nothing prevents them from doing so other than that they just don't want to. It is cool if some want to see it as a gift, I just don't think it is. I think it is the writers moving forward with the endgame story to its conclusion. I don't think The Killjoys showrunners and writers care about the shippers at all like a The CW show would care and allow shippers to influence their decisions. I see the S4 finale as a reset of sorts to raise the stakes for all involved in the battle against The Lady but it is temporary as TAF will end up fighting back in S5 (purely speculation on my end). But the reset is a complete lie so IMO no value is really attached when what the characters believe is real is all false.

I think their real personalities will end up bleeding through the grand delusion they are currently in - Dutch checking out D'av and vice versa when she brought out John's lunch IMO was a neon tip off - and the grand delusion won't stick long nor totally.

I just wonder how they will all recover from being violated a la Dollhouse (Joss Whedon's old show) by The Lady. I can't wait to see how they all fight against the false lives and memories.

Edited September 22, 2018 by Chick2Chic
fixed something.

[statsgirl]

I thought that putting Dutch and Johnny together in the fake world was kind of brilliant.  It puts Dutch and Johnny together in a way ER did with Abby and Carter but taking less than 68 episodes to undo it.*  It gives their shippers a chance to see what they would be like together while at the same time signalling to the audience that this is temporary (D'avins' worst moment is the fight with Dutch; Dutch and D'av major reunion kiss in the green; in the AU Dutch kisses Johnny on the cheek rather than on the lips; Dutch and D'av cross paths and can't take their eyes off each other while Johnny gets uncomfortable).

Chemistry is in the eye of the beholder. But the direction the show is going is shown in the writing.

On 9/18/2018 at 11:14 AM, Chick2Chic said:

Same. And I don't think that the show has ever teased a romance. It just shows two people who love each other and get each other but it's not a romantic love, which is refreshing IMO. I just think at some point holding out hope will ends up being a gut punch when wishful thinking makes one willfully ignore the onscreen narrative hoping that things will change. I've definitely been there in the past and at some point I've realized that what I want and what is actually being written are two different things.

On 9/17/2018 at 9:17 PM, tessaray said:

 D'av isn't shy about trying to change Dutch, for her own good of course. There's something about it that annoys me. 

I guess I see it differently. I think it's less trying to change her and more that he doesn't jump when she says so and isn't afraid to call her out when he doesn't agree with her. I don't mind that he speaks up and Dutch is one who gives it right back if she needs to so I don't see it as a bad trait in either character that they don't blindly follow the other.

One of the things that I love about the Johnny/Dutch relationship is that they can be such loving and true friends without it going into the romance realm.  Few of us are lucky enough to have such friends.

In terms of D'av trying to change Dutch, he thought she crossed the line with what she was doing with Jaq, a young boy of few days? years? and told her that she was doing it because she herself had been abused.  While Dutch reacted very badly to it and so did Johnny, I think it was true and needed to be said by Jaq's father who is the person who is supposed to protect him.  Calling someone out on their stuff is far more important to me than whether it's opposites or similars who attract.

* On ER, the Abby/Luka OTP was telegraphed from their first meeting but there were a lot of Abby/Carter shippers so when she and Luka broke up, Carter hooked up with Abby season 8?9? but there were always indications in the writing that she really wanted Luka (e.g. Carter took her to a fancy party and she told him a story about how she ditched her date at her prom to go out back and smoke cigarettes with the bad boy).  When Abby and Carter broke up, Luka had found someone else and it took till season 12 till Abby and Luka got back together again, far, far too long.

Edited September 22, 2018 by statsgirl

[Ceindreadh]

16 hours ago, statsgirl said:

I thought that putting Dutch and Johnny together in the fake world was kind of brilliant.  It puts Dutch and Johnny together in a way ER did with Abby and Carter but taking less than 68 episodes to undo it.*  It gives their shippers a chance to see what they would be like together while at the same time signalling to the audience that this is temporary (D'avins' worst moment is the fight with Dutch; Dutch and D'av major reunion kiss in the green; in the AU Dutch kisses Johnny on the cheek rather than on the lips; Dutch and D'av cross paths and can't take their eyes off each other while Johnny gets uncomfortable).

Chemistry is in the eye of the beholder. But the direction the show is going is shown in the writing.

One of the things that I love about the Johnny/Dutch relationship is that they can be such loving and true friends without it going into the romance realm.  Few of us are lucky enough to have such friends.

In terms of D'av trying to change Dutch, he thought she crossed the line with what she was doing with Jaq, a young boy of few days? years? and told her that she was doing it because she herself had been abused.  While Dutch reacted very badly to it and so did Johnny, I think it was true and needed to be said by Jaq's father who is the person who is supposed to protect him.  Calling someone out on their stuff is far more important to me than whether it's opposites or similars who attract.

* On ER, the Abby/Luka OTP was telegraphed from their first meeting but there were a lot of Abby/Carter shippers so when she and Luka broke up, Carter hooked up with Abby season 8?9? but there were always indications in the writing that she really wanted Luka (e.g. Carter took her to a fancy party and she told him a story about how she ditched her date at her prom to go out back and smoke cigarettes with the bad boy).  When Abby and Carter broke up, Luka had found someone else and it took till season 12 till Abby and Luka got back together again, far, far too long.

Given that TOTB on ER seemed to be trying to push a Luka/Carol romance in the event that Carol was going to stay for a season, I doubt that they were trying to telegraph Luka/Abby - and if anything I thought they were setting Abby and Carter up from day one. (Not that I subscribed to the Carby ‘every single thing is a clue that Carter/Abby are meant to be’ craziness)

[statsgirl]

Apologies to those who didn't watch ER but this speaks to the idea that there are clues in the writing as to which way it's going to go:

I agree that it would have been Luka/Carol if Julianna Margulies was going to stay. But she told them (fairly early on IIRC) that she was leaving and the show moved to a Luka/Abby meet cute.  I know that a lot of people shipped Carter/Abby because her relationship with Luka was pretty dysfunctional but that's because the characters themselves were dysfunctional and deliberately written to be so that they could have a journey and get healthy. It was never toxic the way Carter/Abby was toxic.

For example, when Carter got out of rehab, doing crossword puzzles during his mandatory AA meetings because he wasn't really committed to it, he asked Abby to be his sponsor. She told him no because she wasn't secure enough in her own recovery to be anyone else's sponsor but he wouldn't accept her answer and pushed, telling her that he didn't want to talk to a stranger (any therapist will tell you that it's essential to have an outside person) and finally she gave in. The Carter/Abby shippers thought it was very cute that Carter wanted only Abby but it was just the first in a series of incidents where Abby put aside her real self to be what she thought Carter wanted because he was who she was settling for.  In fact, their romantic relationship ended when Abbiy's mother told Carter that she was so glad Carter could see and love the real Abby, and Carter realized that the real Abby was nothing like what he wanted, circling back to that early sponsorship discussion.

I thought Johnny saying that if he has to be a third wheel to anyone, he'd prefer it to be to Dutch/D'av was telling. The Killjoys writers may totally surprise me and end the show on Johnny/Dutch but in the episodes up to now including Sporemageddon, I'm seeing signs that she's going to end with D'av romantically if with anyone. In the writing. Hopefully she will stay BFFs with Johnny.

[tessaray]

I never shipped Dutch with anyone in the first 3 seasons and other than some quasi-shippy D/J scenes here and there, never thought the show was heading for them or for her and D'av. Honestly, I don't see any romantic chemistry with D/D. Nothing OTP level, anyway and I always thought Dutch deserved an epic romance if they were going to do one. But that's just me. YMMV. 

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

I kind of honestly took that "if I have to be a 3rd wheel to somone, I'm glad its them" scene as more of a mopey "I missed my chance (/screwed up/didn't try [hard enough]) to win her heart, so now it is what it is and I just gotta live with it".

Or "wish the other guy was the '3rd wheel', but since its me, at least its D'avin and not somebody I can't tolerate".

That's my interpretation of that scene.... as a D/J endgame-r.

Edited September 24, 2018 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[Chick2Chic]

It’s a red flag IMO that Dutch and John are only together when they don’t choose to be and someone else is manipulating their lives to make it so. I just don't see that as something they'd celebrate having happened to them and I wonder if it'll cause some damage to their friendship being violated that way by The Lady. I've always felt if they wanted to be together, they would've been and that they aren't is cause they don't choose to be. Whether it's both or one of them who doesn't want a romantic relationship with each other - I think it's both - I can't see them being ok with this being done to them.

Then again, I did not get the impression from the end of 4x10 ep that Dutch was actually happy in the fake marriage. Not just cause she was checking out D'avin when she interacted with him but how flat her voice was when talking to John. Almost Stepford Wife like. The reset really is an ep of Dollhouse, which is an uncomfortable show on levels since it focused on people being mind-wiped pawns servicing the whims of others and without any free will. IMO, not having a choice is Dutch's worst nightmare followed by marriage. I don't see any altruism in The Lady's actions of Dutch being married to John and putting Dutch in her worst nightmare of having no free will then tied to her BFF as her husband is doubly cruel. 

Edited September 24, 2018 by Chick2Chic
fixed something.

[tessaray]

I'm not sure from the last episode why this reality is the way it is. I'm leaning towards the theory that it's just to keep Johnny happy and away from "saving them all" from The Lady. I don't think Dutch or D'avin's happiness figures into it, if Dutch is unwittingly with John and D'av is searching for his son via a RAC warrant. But just to be clear, when I say the final scene was a gift to the shippers, I mean the writers obviously are aware that D/J have a real fanbase. That way the scene is multi-purpose, fan service (even if they aren't changing the direction of the show to pander to it, a la the CW) and plot service to launch the last season. If TAF retains memories of this AU, then yes, it will raise a ton of issues for the characters to work through. I guess we'll see.

[Chick2Chic]

I am so happy that Killjoys skipped over a lot of the awkward things with the mass hypnosis twist and that Dutch is already awake. I didn't want to sit through them all being violated and having their free will disrupted by The Lady. 

I like that Dutch touching D'av's hand and her inability to stop flirting with him was in some ways her true feelings towards him emerging, which makes sense coming on the heels of their talk at the end of ep 4x08. I like Jaq trying to trigger D'av to wake up by telling Jaq that he said he would never forget him. I appreciated that Lucy is who triggered Johnny to wake up. Plus the underlying glances between Pree & Gared. I guess The Lady couldn't squash everything though it seems Johnny is the most affected. 

[johntfs]

On 9/24/2018 at 12:03 PM, Chick2Chic said:

It’s a red flag IMO that Dutch and John are only together when they don’t choose to be and someone else is manipulating their lives to make it so. I just don't see that as something they'd celebrate having happened to them and I wonder if it'll cause some damage to their friendship being violated that way by The Lady. I've always felt if they wanted to be together, they would've been and that they aren't is cause they don't choose to be. Whether it's both or one of them who doesn't want a romantic relationship with each other - I think it's both - I can't see them being ok with this being done to them.

Then again, I did not get the impression from the end of 4x10 ep that Dutch was actually happy in the fake marriage. Not just cause she was checking out D'avin when she interacted with him but how flat her voice was when talking to John. Almost Stepford Wife like. The reset really is an ep of Dollhouse, which is an uncomfortable show on levels since it focused on people being mind-wiped pawns servicing the whims of others and without any free will. IMO, not having a choice is Dutch's worst nightmare followed by marriage. I don't see any altruism in The Lady's actions of Dutch being married to John and putting Dutch in her worst nightmare of having no free will then tied to her BFF as her husband is doubly cruel. 

I think there's a lot of validity to this.  You also have the situation where the Lady wants to keep people as far from reminders of their old lives as she can.  Pree is stuck as a joyless Killjoy having to have an affair with the man he loves.  Zeph is a stinky, "crazy" homeless woman no one is likely to believe.  Johnny is a bar owner without any of his computers or tech.  I don't know what happen to Turin, but probably nothing he'd want.  The only one who came out of this somewhat normal is Da'vin, who is still basically a Killjoy.  But even he is working alone instead as part of a team/unit, something he kind of dislikes.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

So, my guesses for Johnny's ultimate end are all unhappy ones (currently).

-  A last-second pairing with Zeph, so 'everybody's happy', but it won't feel earned or right.

-  Even worse, it'll turn out Aneela did die and they pair him up with DSK - yes, even despite the bad history between the two.

-  A last-second pairing with someone new, which would feel even cheaper & more wrong than Zeph.

-  Or - my favorite running theory, as of late - he ends up the big Sacrificial Hero.  "The Thief who will save us all."

-  Or, they leave  things as 'status quo' and he rides off in to the sunset as D/D's "3rd wheel".

Edited July 27, 2019 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[rove4]

Could Clara (was that her name?) come back?  At least that's someone Johnny knows and has a connection with. 

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

10 hours ago, rove4 said:

Could Clara (was that her name?) come back?  At least that's someone Johnny knows and has a connection with. 

She could, but considering we haven't seen new-face!Clara[Ollie] for over 2 years, she'd feel a little too much like a 'new LI from out of nowhere'*.  And without having her regain her memories, she still wouldn't remember being Clara.

* (at least to me - unless, they bring her back by no later than ep. 5 or 6 [and they end up together at the very end])

Edited July 31, 2019 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[MissLucas]

I think we all know who Johnny's true love is. And given all the crazy shenanigans this show has pulled off I would not be surprised if they somehow managed to magick Lucy into human form via the green goo.

[Chick2Chic]

Quote

Shipping can be like an extreme emotion, in that its sometimes irrational. 

I've never understood that mindset of being irrational over something that isn't real cause IMO if someone likes / loves something fictional, there are generally reasons that can be listed as to why it is so appealing. Folks don't always agree cause people like different things and personalization hits differently for all but to love something not real without reason seems less about the actual thing itself.

That said, I did like the recent interview on that they were never going to have Dutch & Johnny sleep together because that's not their relationship and crossing that line, even under a mass delusion, would very much negatively impact their relationship. Lovretta has been clear about what their relationship truly is and hasn't wavered on it since the show first began. I adore their BBFship because, to me, their platonic love doesn't make their relationship less because it isn't romantic love.

Anywho, I don't know if Killjoys always meant for Dutch & D'avin to be endgame, though I suspect they had long game for the two of them planned early on from the growth individually & as a couple as they are now vs S1 when they first hooked up. I thought the "are you my girlfriend" talk was interesting cause old Dutch would have run away from that but when she said in 4x08 that she was going to fight for her relationship with D'avin, she wasn't lying. 

[tessaray]

I like a lot of the relationships on the show but Dutch and D'avin still leave me cold. And it's not because I'm a D/J shipper, because I'm not. (Though the actors have enough chemistry to make me understand those who are.)  I might just be biased against D'avin because he annoyed me from the start.  :-) 

They don't have to match everyone up though. That gets insulting when shows do that.  

[Chick2Chic]

5 hours ago, tessaray said:

And it's not because I'm a D/J shipper, because I'm not. (Though the actors have enough chemistry to make me understand those who are.) 

I think they have chemistry cause it's important to sell that they're very important to each other and they have done that. I've just never thought it was romantic chemistry nor a romantic narrative in the story that being told, which doesn't detract from their relationship for me. So I am able to enjoy it for what it is between Dutch & Johnny and what it's been stated to be all along. 

I like Dutch & D'avin as individuals and as a couple. I like their growth throughout the seasons individually and as a couple. I wouldn't call myself a shipper regarding them cause I don't devote time to them outside of when the show is on and I don't read fanfic about them (or anyone on the show) either... but I enjoy them together when I watch the show & have found them not being angsty this season so far to be a delightful change of pace. I enjoyed seeing the differences in Dutch in how she is with each brother because she loves them both strongly but obviously disparately.  I also appreciate all the actors in their roles though there's a part of me that feels like Luke MacFarlane does good / strong work on this show that is often dismissed for reasons I'm not too sure about but I think my longer thoughts on that topic may belong in another thread. 

Edited July 31, 2019 by Chick2Chic
fixed something.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

On 7/31/2019 at 11:13 AM, Chick2Chic said:

('shipping is irrational' discussion)

To me, shipping is "irrational" because there are times that the pairing (or number of pairings) that makes the most sense in my eyes & mind ends up being almost the exact opposite of the writer/creator/author's choice.  ['Harry Potter' series endgame relationships being the most obvious one, immediately comes to mind.  Even JKR basically admitted it probably should have ended up as H/Hr]

I understand Dutch & Johnny's soulmates-as-friends relationship, and I have absolutely no problem that people want to see nothing more than that.  But, at the same time, its frustrating to me that such a great friendship - as well as actor chemistry - can't (& won't) develop in to a 'love of a lifetime' finish.   That would be a romantic pairing endgame I could fully invest in.  To me, Dutch/D'avin has always felt manufactured (likely as an obstacle just to make sure D/J never happened) and somehow just 'wrong', or at least not as 'right' as it should be.  But that's just my opinion, right or wrong.

Will I still watch this show to the end - and then re-watch it in the future - and appreciate the series as a whole for what it is?  Of course.  Doesn't mean I have to believe or be fully pleased with how certain things could have been different after its all said and done.

Edited August 6, 2019 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[rove4]

On 7/31/2019 at 12:59 PM, Chick2Chic said:

I've just never thought it was romantic chemistry nor a romantic narrative

I've never seen it as romantic/sexual chemistry either.  I see chemistry but they've always seemed more like siblings to me.  And I agree that a platonic or familial love is in no way less than romantic love.  

[rove4]

I've started re-watching the series from the beginning and it's reminded me that Johnny has wanted more than just a Killjoy's life since the second season.  He told Pawter as much.  So this fully supports the fact that, after regaining their memories, it's the normalcy of the pretend marriage he had with Dutch that he misses rather than a romantic connection with her.  

I've also been surprised at how many times Dutch has, however unintentionally, made Johnny feel guilty every time he's tried to live a portion of his life outside of her orbit.  It seems like every time she thinks she's losing him she lets him know that he's her anchor, her gravity, that he keeps the monster inside her at bay. That's quite a bit of weight and responsibility to lay on someone else's shoulders.  And of course Johnny would immediately feel guilty for daring to try and carve out a sliver of life just for himself.  It was really starting to irk me but then, thank goodness, he finally told her it wasn't his job in that episode when they visit Pree's old warlord minions.  None of this registered with me the first time I saw these episodes but now it really stands out.  I'm almost to the end of season three now and things have gotten better but for awhile there I was wanting to tell her to back off and let the poor man have some room. 

I'm bummed all over again that TPTB decided to kill off Pawter.  Having a doctor around would've come in handy soooo many times.  

And this rewatch just confirms for me that they have in no way redeemed Delle Seyah in my mind.  IMO she doesn't deserve anything that even comes close to resembling a HEA.