Wally West: Need for Speed

[Trini]

'Lost' son of Joe West, brother to Iris West; played by Keiynan Lonsdale.

Spoiler

[Ottis]

1 hour ago, doram said:

(And not that it matters because my point is that writers can make anyone as important or un-important as they want but going by source mythology, Wally is integral to the Flash. Caitlin Snow/Killer Frost is a random DC character with no ties to Barry Allen/The Flash. Her "verse" is Firestorm. To  use a more mainstream analogy - it's like someone making a Batman show where Lex Luthor is a main character but Dick Grayson had to be written off because the writers didn't know "what to do with Robin".

Like I said, not that this matters but if you're going to reference mythology, the question of source mythology becomes important.)

Ah, that's the issue then. Source methodology is only important if those creating the show - not only writers, but producers, directors, show runners, production company execs, etc. - want it to be. In this case, porting comics to TV or movie incarnations may have little to do with their original source, because many people have decided that the show has a greater chance of being successful with the masses if aspects of its origins are changed. Which, BTW, raises the question of whether the reimagined concepts are *better* than the original source material. I would argue in your example, for instance, that many people question whether Robin was necessary in the TV shows and movies and quite a few mock the character.

Anyway, once that happens, source methodology is irrelevant, and then writers then must write within 1) the show's designation of its leads, and 2) the show's own mythology direction, which could have been contributed by many people, even viewer focus groups, etc., as I posted. 

For what I'm guessing is the vast majority of people who watch this TV show Flash, anything beyond a passing awareness of what Flash is/does and the DC universe as a whole is unnecessary.

1 hour ago, doram said:

Actors don't "catch on" with viewers by being put in the background, and being made redundant or purposeless or given boring storylines. Or, as you yourself admitted being made downright unlikable.

It's entirely possible for a member of an ensemble to break out because of their looks, acting or appeal for some other reason to a viewing audience, even if their initial role is equal to or less than others. Characters who were supposed to be part of a show only for an episode, or a few episodes, become main characters because the audience is drawn to them. This show's Wally had as much a chance as anyone ... long lost brother who returns and needs help but won't ask for it. He didn't catch on. I don't know his source material from comics, but even if they had used it, I'm not sure he would have caught on. Some canon just doesn't translate on TV.

Edited November 3, 2017 by Ottis

[johntfs]

3 hours ago, Ottis said:

It's entirely possible for a member of an ensemble to break out because of their looks, acting or appeal for some other reason to a viewing audience, even if their initial role is equal to or less than others. Characters who were supposed to be part of a show only for an episode, or a few episodes, become main characters because the audience is drawn to them. This show's Wally had as much a chance as anyone ... long lost brother who returns and needs help but won't ask for it. He didn't catch on. I don't know his source material from comics, but even if they had used it, I'm not sure he would have caught on. Some canon just doesn't translate on TV.

Hell, we saw a lot of that with Felicity Smoak.

As for Wally, according to the "comic book canon" that I remember, Wally West was a white dude.  And also Barry Allen died in the Crisis on Infinite Earths.  Of course "comic book canon" gets rebooted and/or shit-canned every 5-10 because otherwise we'd have stories today about how Steve Rogers feels about President Nixon and the current American involvement in the Vietnam War.

[Trini]

It just seems a little disrespectful to have to delete Wally from the narrative because they 'can't figure out what to with him' when there always seems to be room for another version of Wells (or a Dibny, Julian, or (fake) Garrick). And that it's "hard" to write two speedsters after his main arc was getting him powers and a suit last season.

And while two speedsters on the show is a challenge (Barry/The Flash by himself is an overpowered character - not just on this show), there are ways to lessen his role as a superhero. He's still a member of the West family - the heart of the show - they could have done something with that; especially with Cecile (and now her baby) becoming part of the family.

I get budget cuts, or whatever; I'm disappointed they couldn't be bothered to write a proper exit sub-plot for him, when they knew he be absent for a while.

And all of that has nothing to do with comic canon - which I'm only vaguely familiar with through secondhand sources.

[ruby24]

I think it's obvious they're just not INTERESTED in his character. All the new people they bring in every season gives them something new to write, I guess, and Wally as a person seems to hold little to no interest for them. 

Frankly, Caitlin is another character on the show that is so obviously boring and uninteresting, but they won't get rid of her.

[Trini]

12 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

I think it's obvious they're just not INTERESTED in his character. All the new people they bring in every season gives them something new to write, I guess, and Wally as a person seems to hold little to no interest for them. 

I think they were interested ... last season; what's odd is how they've completely lost interest now that he's achieved his superhero status.

[johntfs]

28 minutes ago, Trini said:

I think they were interested ... last season; what's odd is how they've completely lost interest now that he's achieved his superhero status.

I think it's more that they've made a decision to turn away from the plethora of speed-based people they've had in the past.  No speedster villains this year(that we know of), so no (or not as much) time for speedster heroes either.  No Jesse and now a lot less Wally.  Comic books don't have to worry about an FX budget.  Somebody can draw multiple speedsters, a super-stretchy dude, a girl who can ice-skate anywhere she wants and whatever weird meta villains with no problem.  On TV that stuff costs money.  So, this year instead of doing two (or more) speedsters, they'll spend money on a speedster and a stretchy dude, plus whatever they have to battle.  Figure Tuesday they had The Flash, Stretchy Sketchy Ralph, Breacher and Cisco.  So they didn't have room for anything else to fight except two thugs and a guy in a civilian helicopter.

[phoenics]

On 11/3/2017 at 7:41 PM, doram said:

Caitlin Snow is the single most redundant and disconnected character on this show. Every single arc or storyline she's been given has been derivative and fallen flat. She serves absolutely no purpose and could have been written out 2 seasons ago with no impact on the storyline. The only reason I imagine that she is still around, finding a purpose is because the showrunners love DP and feel they need a white female on the cast for the demography to project on. 

Exactly.  This is exactly a case of a character having story and a place on the show because 1) she's white and 2) she's got friend "affirmative action" in the normal way white folks have affirmative action, which is they know the right people in power who gives them a job due to that friendship.

Wally West being passed over for Caitlin Snow is evidence of that.  One is actually integral to the show mythology and the other isn't and has nothing to do with The Flash, hasn't "caught on" like FeFe did on Arrow and honestly sometimes simply seems to exist as a way for some parts of the fandom to have hope she'll erase the black female lead of the show.  The other - Wally West - actually enhances The Flash narrative.  

IF the writers wanted Wally there, he'd be there.  Just like they clearly want CS there because honestly hardly anyone else does and she brings no real value to the show with storylines that have to be warped and twisted so she can remain "good" while being "evil".

[legaleagle53]

2 hours ago, phoenics said:

Exactly.  This is exactly a case of a character having story and a place on the show because 1) she's white and 2) she's got friend "affirmative action" in the normal way white folks have affirmative action, which is they know the right people in power who gives them a job due to that friendship.

And because she's female.  Don't forget that one of the chief complaints in the Berlantiverse is that his shows tend to be a little testosterone-heavy (even Supergirl gets this complaint from time to time any time focus is pulled away from Kara and Alex).  Eliminating Caitlin in favor of keeping Wally would be seen as misogyny because she's one of only two female regular characters on a show that many people feel is already dominated by too many male characters at the expense of Iris. Thus, Wally is considered far more expendable than Caitlin, since he's essentially redundant while she isn't.  Race has nothing to do with it.

[phoenics]

3 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

And because she's female.  Don't forget that one of the chief complaints in the Berlantiverse is that his shows tend to be a little testosterone-heavy (even Supergirl gets this complaint from time to time any time focus is pulled away from Kara and Alex).  Eliminating Caitlin in favor of keeping Wally would be seen as misogyny because she's one of only two female regular characters on a show that many people feel is already dominated by too many male characters at the expense of Iris. Thus, Wally is considered far more expendable than Caitlin, since he's essentially redundant while she isn't.  Race has nothing to do with it.

Taking my response to the lightning rods thread...

Edited November 6, 2017 by phoenics

[Trini]

So while it has come out that Keiynan wanted some time off from the show, I still feel that doesn't excuse how they lazily wrote him off.

I figured we'd be seeing less Wally, but with him being absent from the Christmas episode, now I'm wondering if he'll be back at all. I just have a feeling it will be cameos until he leaves permanently. I think that would be unfortunate to lose a member of the West family, and I like Keiynan - he's good when they give him stuff to do.

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, Trini said:

So while it has come out that Keiynan wanted some time off from the show, I still feel that doesn't excuse how they lazily wrote him off.

I figured we'd be seeing less Wally, but with him being absent from the Christmas episode, now I'm wondering if he'll be back at all. I just have a feeling it will be cameos until he leaves permanently. I think that would be unfortunate to lose a member of the West family, and I like Keiynan - he's good when they give him stuff to do.

There's a better than decent chance he'll end up on Legends of Tomorrow.  He's engineering student and the Waverider is now short an engineer.  Figure the Legends would be quite happy to have the second (third?) fastest man alive join up, though you know several of them would try to dump their chores on him.

[legaleagle53]

On 12/8/2017 at 0:28 AM, johntfs said:

There's a better than decent chance he'll end up on Legends of Tomorrow.  He's engineering student and the Waverider is now short an engineer.  Figure the Legends would be quite happy to have the second (third?) fastest man alive join up, though you know several of them would try to dump their chores on him.

There's also the fact that he can travel through time under his own power independently of the Waverider.  That could prove to be a huge tactical advantage to the Legends.

[Trini]

It's possible that they'd transfer Wally to Legends, but if the main reason for him being off Flash is that Keiynan wanted time off, then him going to another show anyway doesn't make sense to me. On Legends, he'd probably have a lighter workload, but I assume he'd still need to be there for most episodes.

[BaggythePanther]

On 12/10/2017 at 1:34 PM, Trini said:

It's possible that they'd transfer Wally to Legends, but if the main reason for him being off Flash is that Keiynan wanted time off, then him going to another show anyway doesn't make sense to me. On Legends, he'd probably have a lighter workload, but I assume he'd still need to be there for most episodes.

Legends has a shorter season. So even if he was in every episode (which he wouldn’t necessarily have to be) it could be a lighter work load than appearing on The Flash.

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, BaggythePanther said:

Legends has a shorter season. So even if he was in every episode (which he wouldn’t necessarily have to be) it could be a lighter work load than appearing on The Flash.

Also, Legends has a pretty large cast, so if Wally need to stay with the ship or somesuch they can do stuff like that.  Meanwhile, because he's a powerful speedster, Wally has time travel abilities independent of the Waverider.  So, it can be explained that "Wally and Zari are in 22th century Tokyo trying to stop the super-clone of Ghengis Khan from launching a corporate raid and taking over Nintendo (don't ask)" while everyone else is where they are for the episode.

Edited December 18, 2017 by johntfs

[Trini]

Wally shows up on Legends of Tomorrow:

Spoiler

at the end of episode 3.11, meditating in China:

 

From the episode descriptions, he's not showing up again until 3.13.

[Trini]

Does anyone know when they took off Keiynan's name from the opening credits? I can't review the earlier episodes.

[teenj12]

It's astonishing how hard this show failed Wally West and the mantle of Kid Flash. It's like, after a certain point they refused to write story for him. Perhaps a few things could of been done differently to prevent this:

• Hold off the Kid Flash transformation: Wally became Kid Flash too soon imo. I know it happened a half season after he joined the show, but I still feel it could have been pushed back more. Just like with the Westallen wedding. I'm a huge Westallen fan, but I think the wedding should of been a Season 5 thing.

NOTE: There's also rumors that Keiynan asked to go to Legends in order to have a lighter work schedule ( for his mental health and his side stuff with music), so perhaps this idea wouldn't of worked anyway, and he still would of exited the show. However, it still could of made for a better character arc while he was here.

• Perhaps cast younger: I LOVE Keiynan - and I love his take on Wally West, but perhaps they should of cast a younger person for the role. Maybe having a 12-15 year old kid in the role could have made the Kid Flash thing feel more distinguishable from Barry's Flash and other speedster heroes who showed up before he got his powers (Jessie Quick for example.)

Maybe neither of these ideas are any good or 100%, but it's obvious TPTB had writing issues when it came to Wally's journey - and I think a lot of that was bad narrative choices or by doing stuff too fast. Same thing that created the atrocity of S4's Killer Caitlin Frost arc. 

Edited February 28, 2018 by teenj12

[VCRTracking]

5 hours ago, teenj12 said:

It's astonishing how hard this show failed Wally West and the mantle of Kid Flash. It's like, after a certain point they refused to write story for him. Perhaps a few things could of been done differently to prevent this:

• Hold off the Kid Flash transformation: Wally became Kid Flash too soon imo. I know it happened a half season after he joined the show, but I still feel it could have been pushed back more. Just like with the Westallen wedding. I'm a huge Westallen fan, but I think the wedding should of been a Season 5 thing.

NOTE: There's also rumors that Keiynan asked to go to Legends in order to have a lighter work schedule ( for his mental health and his side stuff with music), so perhaps this idea wouldn't of worked anyway, and he still would of exited the show. However, it still could of made for a better character arc while he was here.

• Perhaps cast younger: I LOVE Keiynan - and I love his take on Wally West, but perhaps they should of cast a younger person for the role. Maybe having a 12-15 year old kid in the role could have made the Kid Flash thing feel more distinguishable from Barry's Flash and other speedster heroes who showed up before he got his powers (Jessie Quick for example.)

Maybe neither of these ideas are any good or 100%, but it's obvious TPTB had writing issues when it came to Wally's journey - and I think a lot of that was bad narrative choices or by doing stuff too fast. Same thing that created the atrocity of S4's Killer Caitlin Frost arc. 

I think Wally will do a lot better on Legends of Tomorrow. They did bring in Wally too soon on Flash because in the comics the character of Wally West as Kid Flash worked as a child sidekick to a much more adult Barry Allen. He was also a member of the Teen Titans where he really came into his own, especially in the 80s incarnation written by Marv Wolfman where he was a young adult.

[Trini]

I'm disappointed that Legends is essentially re-writing Wally's character/history to fit in with the show. But it's not surprising; they've done that for all the characters they've 'borrowed' from the other shows to flesh them out.

Anyway, I'll miss Keiynan/Wally on The Flash. He and Candice had great sibling chemistry, and I wish they had more scenes together when he was still a part of the show.

[Starry]

4 hours ago, Princess Lucky said:

I agree with most of this, except I think Legends is trying to undo the damage The Flash has caused. It's true that these things were mentioned early on (as you said, in the last few episodes Wally has been an individual character, without constant mentions of his family and other connections, aside from a Barry-related joke or two), but I think that was the LoT writers attempting to show that Wally had some baggage, even some misconceptions about himself, which he needed to shake. It was a way to give him something to relate to, regarding the other Legends (all of whom are loveable losers but also, you know, legends). I think Wally quickly found a place on the Waverider, and he found a confidence, and those early references were just a way to connect this new Wally to the Flash Wally (who was, I agree, horribly mistreated). I adore Iris (and that's all I'll say about The Flash), but I think Wally should be his own character, and if that means she'll never be mentioned again on LoT, so be it.

4 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Sara never mentions or even visits her father in Star City when she's there so it's not just a Wally thing not mentioning existing family members.

Some of those things were said by the villain to mess with Wally's head, Malice did the same thing with Nate blaming him for his grandfather's death. So I don't see that as a knock on Wally or his family. Wally then stood up and said he didn't see himself that way. And I can see Wally feeling left out of the Flash team since they barely ever gave him anything to do since they had Barry and didn't even notice he was gone .

I am perfectly fine with Wally not mentioning any Flash character ever again. My problem is that when he did, his family was painted in a bad light or flat out ignored (Iris) while Barry and Team Science were put on a pedestal. They are the “geniuses” Wally compares himself to.  

Wally had a pathetic exit from The Flash and it was bad writing that Joe and Iris didn’t realize that he was gone. I am not excusing The Flash writers for that. Barry and Team Science didn’t notice Wally’s absence either but the Legends writing didn’t shade them once.

That’s why I’m a bit iffy on Iris ever crossing over. I haven’t seen anything from the Arrow or Legends writing team that suggests the character would be done justice on those shows.

Again, I love that Wally is having fun on the Waverider and I hope there will be instances where Nate, who currently seems to be his best bud, acts as his support system and not the other way around.

[Starfish35]

Welcome to the Legends forum, Wally West thread! :)

[tarotx]

28 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

Welcome to the Legends forum, Wally West thread! :)

That's a great picture