S02.E13: Memory of Tomorrow

[Hanahope]

27 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I'm really curious as to why Cassie and Cole's kid wants to collapse time. I had assumed that the Witness had lost someone really important and that was his motivation so that they could be together forever.

He/she probably misses mommie and daddy.

[MissLucas]

43 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I'm really curious as to why Cassie and Cole's kid wants to collapse time. I had assumed that the Witness had lost someone really important and that was his motivation so that they could be together forever.

That's why I wish they had made Sam the Witness. Kid knows he's existing because his dad willingly sacrificed millions for him by time-travelling shenanigans. That sort of thing can screw you up badly enough to go after time itself. Cassie and Cole's kid might get brainwashed by the 12 Monkeys but I don't find that quite as powerful.

I'm really a bit disappointed the show goes with the 'special (not-)savior kid' trope. Way too many shows suffered from doing that: Fringe has already been mentioned and since we're already talking Buffy let's not forget about Connor.

[Bort]

The 4400 also had that "savior child born out of time" kind of thing going. It was worth it for the season of the Evil Baby, though. 

[FurryFury]

Charmed also had this trope, it's quite popular in speculative fiction, for some reason.

[coppersin]

On ‎7‎/‎20‎/‎2016 at 4:39 PM, MissLucas said:

I agree with the others - the "mother" Olivia and the Pallid Man were talking about was Vivian the messenger. The show has a "mother"-fetish so it's easy to get confused.

There's Vivian the "mother" of Olivia (by genetic engineering) and the Pallid Man (by natural conception it seems), it's even written on her tombstone - but Vivian's also Olivia's daughter. Then there's Jennifer who has her own maternal trauma and became/becomes "mother" to the army of the daughters. And then there's Doctor Jones whose refusal to accept her daughter's death kicked off the whole thing - and it was also a pretty big deal when Hannah/Zeit called her "mother" for the first time. Plus there's the woman in red who is probably Cole's mother.

Cassie is just the latest addition to the all the "mothers" already running the show. (The only mother nobody really cared about was Sam's mom.)

I like the "mommy issues" trend we seem to have on this show because it's at least better than the tired "daddy issues" trope of nearly every other show. Gives me hope that having a "destined" baby isn't going to play out in a predictable way either.

[bethy]

2 hours ago, coppersin said:

I like the "mommy issues" trend we seem to have on this show because it's at least better than the tired "daddy issues" trope of nearly every other show. Gives me hope that having a "destined" baby isn't going to play out in a predictable way either.

Exactly. They've done a really good job, IMO, so far, of turning some of the standardized tropes on their head, so I'm willing to see what they do with this baby thing.

[Rhetorica]

As long as the "baby" is a full grown, good looking man, I'm OK with it.

[Bort]

Grown and good-looking, yes, we need that. I'm also willing to accept an episode that briefly features an Evil Baby time period.

Yeah, the Special Snowflake Child has been done before but in all honesty, I've never truly hated it in past shows. Some has been done better than others, but none made me turn off the show, so I am also okay with this plotline.

[bethy]

So I was thinking about this episode again tonight (don't judge me), and I remembered something that made me look at Cole's going to Titan a little differently.

I can't find the quote, but in Immortal, I think, Cole apologizes for rushing into things and almost getting them killed, and Ramse says something about that being who Cole is and thinking that might actually be what saves them all. And that made me think, "I don't know Madeline Stowe, so why am I trusting her warning about Titan?" I mean sure it looks bad now, but who knows what will happen in the future. Maybe Cole's impetuosity will work in their favor in the long run.

Also, Jennifer didn't seem to have any concerns about their going to Titan, if I'm remembering correctly.

[snarktini]

1 hour ago, bethy said:

Also, Jennifer didn't seem to have any concerns about their going to Titan, if I'm remembering correctly.

Young Jennifer didn't. But old Jennifer warned that Titan brought only death, and Cole should never go there.

[dargosmydaddy]

Just got the chance to watch this yesterday, after not watching episode 12, which was inexplicably not on my on-demand.

I love how Cole always rushes into things in an attempt to fix them because it's consistent and fits his character. I don't blame him for not telling Cassie before drinking the tea because she's been hella shady with him in the past and red forest hallucinations are a big trigger for her (I could see her trying to talk him out of it because she thinks it won't work and/ or concern for Cole), but I think Cole's motivation was just trying to protect Cassie-- he believes she'll never remember their time together/ the pregnancy, so why not just save her the angst that he himself is experiencing over it? Whether that's the "right" choice is debatable, but it's definitely understandable and I won't fault him for it.

I definitely thought showing Olivia with the gray streaked hair was a clue-- especially after showing her with normal hair when meeting Sam-- that time is accelerated in wherever they are, and that Sam, too, is going to be much older.

I have no idea where they're going with the Jennifer story, but I found her attempts to communicate hilarious... If she ever gets back to our time (2016-ish), I could see her lobbying for all foreign language classes in schools to teach phrases like, "Don't shoot! I'm a time traveler!"

[Jordan27]

Great season finale and kudos to the writers.  This is how all Sci-Fi should be.  When you have unlimited possibilities, there is no reason a show shouldn't at least be good.  This one was very good and great in some eps.

The time travel in this is the most mind bending I have ever seen.  

I figured out the witness was their baby early in this episode.  It was the only thing that made sense, plus Cole or Cassie wouldn't have been surprising.

Looking forward to the final season. 

[supposebly]

Why won't anyone ever listen to Deacon. He is the sole voice of reason. Except Jennifer: Be excellent to each other! Indeed. I couldn't stop laughing at her quotes.

And now Deacon seems to be dead. Not cool, Cassie, Ramse, and Cole. Not cool.

And of course teh sex! was evil and had world-destroying consequences. So, in a way I was not wrong that the Witness is either Cassie or Cole. It's both. Of course, that also means that all that time traveling has created the Witness in the first place. And Jennifer told them. I forget when but I distinctly remember her telling one of them that them being together would destroy the world.

And that plot was partially stolen from Doctor Who. The witness can only hope to be as awesome as River Song. I'm calling it now, Cassie and Cole will lose their child somehow and he or she will become the witness because they get separated.

You know, the army seems to have a much better handle on the sequence of things than anyone else. But still, time hasn't collapsed, so I'm not sure how making the Witness now/before makes a difference.

Loved Jones. Just loved her. Having a dog and handling a gun suits her.

At least Ramse can now stop whining about his son. That made the return of Mrs Monotone almost worth it. Almost.

Overall, I find this show somehow rather frustrating to watch, no sure why. Possibly because I'm supposed to buy into this grand love story and I'm just not buying it. So, their child being the witness, I don't find tragic or ironic, only annoying. If only someone had left Cassie for dead in the plague. Speaking of, does anyone still care about the plague? Does anyone still care now that Jones got her wish? Or just forget about it?

Edited July 24, 2016 by supposebly

[coppersin]

On ‎7‎/‎20‎/‎2016 at 1:58 PM, Hanahope said:

Oh yeah, I vaguely recall this now.  I'm going to have to go back and rewatch that episode.  Which one was it?

Pallid Man + Jones is the end of ep 2x9, "Hyena"

[BasilSeal]

Finally got round to watching the finale and was impressed.

As above,  i will be annoyed if they've killed Deacon again.

Jennifer in the trenches is another call back to the original movie where Bruce Willis briefly gets transported back to the front line during WW1

[Lebanna]

On 23/07/2016 at 5:18 PM, dargosmydaddy said:

Just got the chance to watch this yesterday, after not watching episode 12, which was inexplicably not on my on-demand.

I love how Cole always rushes into things in an attempt to fix them because it's consistent and fits his character. I don't blame him for not telling Cassie before drinking the tea because she's been hella shady with him in the past and red forest hallucinations are a big trigger for her (I could see her trying to talk him out of it because she thinks it won't work and/ or concern for Cole), but I think Cole's motivation was just trying to protect Cassie-- he believes she'll never remember their time together/ the pregnancy, so why not just save her the angst that he himself is experiencing over it? Whether that's the "right" choice is debatable, but it's definitely understandable and I won't fault him for it.

I definitely thought showing Olivia with the gray streaked hair was a clue-- especially after showing her with normal hair when meeting Sam-- that time is accelerated in wherever they are, and that Sam, too, is going to be much older.

I have no idea where they're going with the Jennifer story, but I found her attempts to communicate hilarious... If she ever gets back to our time (2016-ish), I could see her lobbying for all foreign language classes in schools to teach phrases like, "Don't shoot! I'm a time traveler!"

If I remember what I learned at school, it's something like - 'Ne tirez pas! Je suis voyageur du temps!'

I always wondered why my French teacher was so keen to have us memorise that phrase...

[shapeshifter]

On July 25, 2016 at 8:42 PM, Lebanna said:

If I remember what I learned at school, it's something like - 'Ne tirez pas! Je suis voyageur du temps!'

I always wondered why my French teacher was so keen to have us memorise that phrase...

A Doctor Who fan, n'est pas?