Season 7: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[WearyTraveler]

52 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

The Lannisters are your cliched dysfunctional rich WASP family tropes bundled together--successful but cold and unloving patriarch, vain and embittered alcoholic matriarch with questionable parenting abilities, golden boy shunning his family responsibilities and wasting his talents, poor little rich boy black sheep who drowns his sorrows in booze and prostitutes, conversations conducted using nothing but bitchy repartee, a Dark Family Secret--parachuted into a high fantasy setting. Tyrion and Tywin are basically Chuck Bass and Bart Bass from Gossip Girl with the dwarfism issue out of the picture. The Lannisters' family dynamics and characterization are not original--soap operas rely on these same stereotypes--but they make for great TV. Who cares about normal, mostly nice, caring, and not terribly quotable characters like the Starks and Dany when you've got the amoral, endlessly bitchy, mostly drunk, and infinitely quotable Lannisters? No one tunes in to watch Real Housewives abstain from wine, keep their witty remarks to themselves, and humbly strive towards unselfish goals.

Well, the Starks and Dany do have a sizable fandom, so, I think plenty of people care.  Also, I'd disagree that they are un-quotable or terribly normal.  For this universe, they are rarities: people who truly want to do the right thing are not the norm in Westeros, at least not in the noble families who are more interested in how to keep or advance their social and political standing by marriages, court appointments, murder and intrigue.  They are very much not your normal Westerosi: Jon is a secret Targaryen, the actual heir to the throne, Bran is connected to some of the oldest magic in the world and is possibly key to winning the battle for the survival of the human race, Arya is a Faceless Man (the most effective assassins in all of Planetos), Daenerys has Dragons (which, in this Universe, equates to WMD)... When I go to my Kindle Clippings, I usually find that I've highlighted more from these characters than from Cersei, or Tywin, or even Tyrion. 

But, let's put all that aside, as it could be chugged to personal preferences, focusing so heavily on the Lannisters, and neglecting all those other characters/storylines is bad writing.  I think at this point we would all agree that the big buildup we are running toward and the climax of this epic is going to be the Battle for the Dawn.  How will Westeros avoid the Apocalypse?  All the other characters and storylines might be interesting, but they are all secondary.  One of the most common complaints about the series are all the detours Martin takes: introducing new characters and POVs, new locations, etc. and not advancing the main story.  D&D didn't give us Qentyn or fAegon, but they sure wasted time on the Lannisters, when they could have been showing the TV viewers more important things related to the main arc of the epic.

By having so much focus on their favourite Lannisters, they risk the audience not caring about the main plot.  And that would be fine, if they were just loosely basing their story on the books, but they discussed the ending with the author, so this is not an homage.  Their version, while different, will still hit the most relevant story beats.  So, eventually, they will have to shift focus to the North, Jon and the WW. So, they need to spend time with those characters and those storylines early and keep the audience engaged with them,

[SeanC]

As far D&D's elevating of the Lannisters goes, I think a lot of that has to do with a more general desire to elevate the adult aspects of the show, which came at the relative expense of the child characters (meaning the three younger Stark POVs, the ones actually played by children, as opposed to Kit and Emilia).  GOT was fairly heavily pitched as an adult political drama/low-fantasy action drama in the early going.

Arya fared the best of the three in the early going, for a variety of reasons.  You can argue whether Bran or Sansa fared the worst.  Bran kept his own storyline all the way through, because it wasn't possible to do with him what they did with Sansa in the early seasons (shift the focus onto adult supporting characters around her that D&D found more interesting) because Bran's storyline doesn't really have any of those as far as D&D were concerned (other than maybe Osha, but there's a limit to what they could do with that).  However, D&D's 'solution' instead was basically to do the absolute minimum they could with Bran, to the point where audience interest withered so much that it may be beyond salvage.  Conversely, as I said, with Sansa in the early going their approach was to restructure the whole plot to be about the supporting cast more than her; at the same time, Sansa, unlike Bran, benefited from the fact that she was always part of one of the major plot locations of the series, even if it was often in a background capacity.

Edited March 31, 2017 by SeanC

[Eyes High]

33 minutes ago, WearyTraveler said:

Well, the Starks and Dany do have a sizable fandom, so, I think plenty of people care.  Also, I'd disagree that they are un-quotable or terribly normal.

The point was that the Starks and Dany shrink into the background on TV, because they can't hold the audience's attention the way the Lannisters can (at least not without dragons). That's why the Lannisters have eaten the show, or rather why D&D have allowed the Lannisters to eat the show. Dramatically, it's a no-brainer. Charles Dance's Tywin was in of himself an excellent reason to put the Lannisters front and centre for the first chunk of the show: why mess with perfection?

The fact that the Lannisters on the whole have been played by much better actors than those playing the Starks and Dany doesn't help matters, of course. Kit Harington and Emilia Clarke in particular leave much to be desired. D&D have tried to play to Kit's strengths--swordfights, comic timing--but there's only so much to work with there. 

14 minutes ago, SeanC said:

As far D&D's elevating of the Lannisters goes, I think a lot of that has to do with a more general desire to elevate the adult aspects of the show, which came at the relative expense of the child characters

The Lannisters brought a lot to the show that would hook a viewing audience that was missing from the other ostensible "main" characters, who lack the Lannisters' charisma, and D&D--either deliberately or unconsciously--realized this and brought it out. You mentioned that D&D seem to have restructured Sansa's plot to focus on supporting characters in her plot they found more interesting. I think they did this on a bigger scale with the Lannisters: they decided they were more interesting and put them front and centre, with the Starks and Dany paying the price. 

With all that said, much of what D&D decide is simple favouritism without any deeper consideration or thought behind it. They loved Richard Madden's Robb, so they focused on his character at Cat's expense. They liked Sandor, so they decided to bring him back. They liked Noah Taylor's Locke, so they kept him around a whole half-season longer. They seem to have disliked Stannis (and Stephen Dillane hated the show), and so Stannis got the boot far earlier than he did in the books, receiving a particularly humiliating end. And so on. I think the fates of a lot of the second banana characters whose book fates are still unknown to D&D (likely Pod, Bronn, Jorah, Sandor, Gendry, etc.) will depend on which of those characters D&D like the most, with the least liked winding up as wight fodder in Season 8.

[SeanC]

7 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I think they did this on a bigger scale with the Lannisters: they decided they were more interesting and put them front and centre, with the Starks and Dany paying the price. 

I'm not sure Dany suffered much from this approach.  D&D have always given her plenty of focus, because fuck yeah dragonzzz.

[OhOkayWhat]

7 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

Maybe because in the books we saw her way of "ruling" ...

I disagree. Book Cercei is not Show Cercei. She never was. To judge her storyline using what we know about the books is not the right move.

7 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

just don't regress characters like Jon,

Jon's arc in season 6 is very good. Jon coming back is a long process, from his resurrection to his rebirth, is a very subtle and meaningful arc.

 

3 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

D&D didn't give us Qentyn or fAegon, but they sure wasted time on the Lannisters, when they could have been showing the TV viewers more important things related to the main arc of the epic.

And they did. But budget has its limits. Season 8 will not be only the Winter Apocalypsis. And it is not just a problem of budget, the final season will not be just a 6 hour movie about the White Walkers and Jon. Or Dany.

They will have a part of the cast dealing with the KL crisis. And if the leaks are true, they even wrote Season 7 plot to relate KL crisis to the main WW plot.Therefore they decided to keep Cercei.

As I said before, they make mistakes, but they do not lose the focus once they decided what the Big Narrative needs. They then move all the pieces on the board to fill the storylines. Those storylines then mix to bring the whole plot together on screen.

It is not about D&D loving/hating characters. It is about if that character is useful or not within the big plot in their minds. And how and when they decide to show the plot to the audience.

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

With all that said, much of what D&D decide is simple favouritism without any deeper consideration or thought behind it. They loved Richard Madden's Robb, so they focused on his character at Cat's expense. They liked Sandor, so they decided to bring him back. They liked Noah Taylor's Locke, so they kept him around a whole half-season longer.

I disagree. And Noah Taylor is the best example. It is true they like him. But it goes beyond D&D liking him. They trust him to carry a certain storyline. Ok. Then they think they have more storylines to put on screen. If they see that the same actor ( in our example Noah) is a good choice to carry one more storyline then he will do that. It is just that. 

In other words: it is not they like or not actors, it is mostly about the story they want to tell and who will be able to carry that plot on screen.

 

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

so Stannis got the boot far earlier than he did in the books, receiving a particularly humiliating end.

I disagree. The books are the books and the show is the show. Stannis left the show exactly at the precise episode their narrative needed him to leave the show. Maybe with the exception of the Dorne storyline, each particular plot has a beginning and an end related to the Big Narrative D&D have in their minds.

Edited March 31, 2017 by OhOkayWhat

[anamika]

It's amazing to see how they have whittled down the main players over the seasons.

This was the similar season one promo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZ5p18wIQEI

with everyone from Ned to Robert sitting on the Iron Throne

And we had this one is season 3:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iTg20x7w2s

And now we have the season 7 promo which just the three characters - I think this promo points to David and Dan's remarks on what they see as the final chess pieces on the board - Jon as KITN, Cersei on the Iron Throne and Dany finally in Westeros. I think this is pretty much where their book versions end up at some point. I have always felt that GRRM gave original outline Jaime's storyline to Cersei while Jaime got his redemption arc. In the original outline, Jaime murders everyone on his way to the Iron throne and that's pretty much what Cersei has done on the show.

In the books though, we possibly have the second dance of dragons between Dany and Aegon before she takes on Cersei while Jon may continue to remain North.

It's unquestionable though that on the show Cersei is a more important character than Jaime. Maybe it will turn out to be the same in the books, but GRRM spend more time on Jaime and it felt like he was the more important character of the two. 

Maybe GRRM still does not know how the tale ends for Jaime and Cersei and the show is doing it's own version.

[Eyes High]

15 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

D&D didn't give us Qentyn or fAegon...

I think the decision to cut Aegon, which in turn seems to have triggered the decision to cut Arianne and Quentyn (the former because her storyline will merge with Aegon's in the books, the latter because his death is a plot device relevant to the Dorne/Aegon plot), was to me the most sensible major change D&D could have made. Doesn't mean the Dorne storyline in the show wasn't a mess, of course. They should have stuck with their original plan and eliminated Dorne as an independent setting rather than caving to Bryan Cogman's idea. Better to have Jaime wandering the Riverlands or whatever for a whole season rather than drag an ill-conceived Dorne storyline into the show to give Jaime something to do.

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I think at this point we would all agree that the big buildup we are running toward and the climax of this epic is going to be the Battle for the Dawn.  How will Westeros avoid the Apocalypse?  All the other characters and storylines might be interesting, but they are all secondary.

I disagree. Despite the acknowledged focus on the Lannisters, I think the show has done a great job in building up the urgency of the WW threat, maybe even better than the published books. The Hardhome massacre and the attack on Bloodraven's cave, both show-only set pieces, were appropriately terrifying and apocalyptic bits of business.

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By having so much focus on their favourite Lannisters, they risk the audience not caring about the main plot.

Yes, but audiences do not live by ice zombies and dragons alone. They need interesting, memorable and charismatic characters with compelling relationships to hold their interest. Even The Walking Dead needs lots of interesting character stories to season all the zombie action.

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And now we have the season 7 promo which just the three characters - I think this promo points to David and Dan's remarks on what they see as the final chess pieces on the board - Jon as KITN, Cersei on the Iron Throne and Dany finally in Westeros. I think this is pretty much where their book versions end up at some point.

I agree. The books will likely use Robb's will disinheriting Sansa, which of course was omitted from the show, as the means by which Jon is named King.

From what we know about Season 7, it does seem as if Jon, Dany and Cersei are the "main characters" this season, with the other Stark siblings having their own decidedly secondary storyline at Winterfell away from the main action. Even Tyrion will be taking a backseat to Jon and Dany in the southern storyline from the sounds of it.

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Maybe GRRM still does not know how the tale ends for Jaime and Cersei and the show is doing it's own version.

I have no doubt that GRRM told D&D exactly how Jaime and Cersei end up. It's the tertiary characters like Meera, Bronn and Jorah that he may not know anything about.

Edited March 31, 2017 by Eyes High

[FemmyV]

It's understandable why Lannisters got the prime time for ratings expediency: TV viewers are more drawn in by scenes featuring people who are tied together. Just is. The question IMO is, have D and D unduly manipulated the storyline changes to keep the Starks isolated, longer than necessary?

re: Promo.

On 3/30/2017 at 6:02 PM, Edith said:

Jon not sitting in his throne as Dany and Cersei do?!

I think it's implied he's seated in the last shot. Dany and Cersei have real throne-thrones you walk right up to. Winterfell doesn't have a throne, but that trestle table for the Lord and whatever council, he'd have to walk around. (Love me some James.)

[OhOkayWhat]

5 hours ago, FemmyV said:

The question IMO is, have D and D unduly manipulated the storyline changes to keep the Starks isolated, longer than necessary?

Good question. Separation and reunion are narrative devices. I think D&D used them well (mostly) with the Starks. A good example is Jon and Sansa, the first family members the writers decided to reunite.

[ElizaD]

18 hours ago, anamika said:

And now we have the season 7 promo which just the three characters - I think this promo points to David and Dan's remarks on what they see as the final chess pieces on the board - Jon as KITN, Cersei on the Iron Throne and Dany finally in Westeros. I think this is pretty much where their book versions end up at some point. I have always felt that GRRM gave original outline Jaime's storyline to Cersei while Jaime got his redemption arc. In the original outline, Jaime murders everyone on his way to the Iron throne and that's pretty much what Cersei has done on the show.

In the books though, we possibly have the second dance of dragons between Dany and Aegon before she takes on Cersei while Jon may continue to remain North.

I really liked how the focus on the rulers made it feel like the endgame is finally here. While Cersei probably gets some of Book Aegon's stuff in being the first enemy Dany faces in Westeros, it's interesting to wonder if the outline is still present in the books in the form of Cersei naming herself queen after the deaths of her children and maybe fleeing to the Rock after Aegon takes KL.

17 hours ago, Eyes High said:

From what we know about Season 7, it does seem as if Jon, Dany and Cersei are the "main characters" this season, with the other Stark siblings having their own decidedly secondary storyline at Winterfell away from the main action. Even Tyrion will be taking a backseat to Jon and Dany in the southern storyline from the sounds of it.

That's something I've found fascinating ever since the leaks revealed that the NK would be riding Viserion. While Tyrion could still ride one of the other two dragons after Jon or Dany gets killed, all the "three heads of the dragon" speculation feels shakier than it used to; even Jon doesn't become a dragonrider in season 7 and with only six episodes left is it going to be 8x02 you're a Targ, 8x03 here's your dragon, 8x06 oh you're dead Tyrion get in the saddle? It sounds like Tyrion has zero dragon interaction in season 7 while Jon is shown getting along with them right from the start, without the sense of danger that was present when Tyrion freed the dragons. Without a dragon, magic or an army of his own, what could Tyrion do that would be as momentous as what Jon, Dany and Bran will presumably be able to accomplish against the White Walkers? As an experienced Hand, right now he basically feels like a more capable version of what Sansa can offer to the story, a political noncombatant who takes charge of logistics and support. A couple of years ago I wouldn't have guessed that Jon/Dany/Cersei would be the ones getting the "big three" promotion and that Cersei would be the Lannister over Tyrion and Jaime.

[Eyes High]

3 hours ago, ElizaD said:

I really liked how the focus on the rulers made it feel like the endgame is finally here. While Cersei probably gets some of Book Aegon's stuff in being the first enemy Dany faces in Westeros, it's interesting to wonder if the outline is still present in the books in the form of Cersei naming herself queen after the deaths of her children and maybe fleeing to the Rock after Aegon takes KL.

That's what I'm thinking, too.

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That's something I've found fascinating ever since the leaks revealed that the NK would be riding Viserion. While Tyrion could still ride one of the other two dragons after Jon or Dany gets killed, all the "three heads of the dragon" speculation feels shakier than it used to; even Jon doesn't become a dragonrider in season 7 and with only six episodes left is it going to be 8x02 you're a Targ, 8x03 here's your dragon, 8x06 oh you're dead Tyrion get in the saddle? It sounds like Tyrion has zero dragon interaction in season 7 while Jon is shown getting along with them right from the start, without the sense of danger that was present when Tyrion freed the dragons.

Yes! Spot on. With Viserion established as dead and the NK as his rider, this season will blow a big hole in the "three heads of the dragon" speculation. I think even any idea that Tyrion will still be pinch hitter dragonrider in Season 8 for Jon or Dany is looking less and less probable.

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Without a dragon, magic or an army of his own, what could Tyrion do that would be as momentous as what Jon, Dany and Bran will presumably be able to accomplish against the White Walkers? As an experienced Hand, right now he basically feels like a more capable version of what Sansa can offer to the story, a political noncombatant who takes charge of logistics and support.

I instantly thought of Metatron from Dogma: "Well, I say we get drunk, because I'm all out of ideas." That's probably unfair to Tyrion, though, who I expect will rise to the occasion even if he's not doing anything particularly flashy or world-saving.

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A couple of years ago I wouldn't have guessed that Jon/Dany/Cersei would be the ones getting the "big three" promotion and that Cersei would be the Lannister over Tyrion and Jaime.

It doesn't surprise me, both from a plot perspective and from a meta D&D perspective. Tyrion has been doomed to a secondary role ever since he got incorporated into Team Dany, and Jaime would never name himself king (...as interesting as that would be).

The Season 7 spoilers for Tyrion don't give him much of a character arc of his own, so I'm curious to see where they go with the character in Season 8. However, the script pages of admittedly dubious authenticity contained a hint that Tyrion was in unrequited love with Dany (Tyrion not denying...something, and Cersei then saying it's not surprising, since Dany is--like Shae, presumably--"a foreign whore who doesn't know her place"), but that's been done before on the show and done better. It wouldn't surprise me if Tyrion fell in love with Dany--she's a beautiful woman who treats him with respect--but I don't know what it would really add at this point, unless Tyrion in a jealous rage turns on Jon or something in Season 8, which at this point given TV Tyrion's characterization seems like an absurd suggestion.

Edited April 1, 2017 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

As far as Tyrion's feeling increasingly secondary, while his book plot always seemed destined to merge with Dany's to a great extent, I think what has made the biggest difference in the show is that show!Tyrion doesn't really have his own motivations anymore.  Book!Tyrion is being built up to wreak bloody vengeance on everybody who fucked him over, whereas show!Tyrion is at this point just there to Do The Right Thing.  He's Davos with more screentime (and character relationships).

Though the worst victim of plot alteration is Varys.  He's basically just there to banter with Tyrion at this point.

[OhOkayWhat]

35 minutes ago, SeanC said:

the biggest difference in the show is that show!Tyrion doesn't really have his own motivations anymore.

 

35 minutes ago, SeanC said:

whereas show!Tyrion is at this point just there to Do The Right Thing.

 

And that is his own motivation (show!Tyrion motivation). Show!Tyrion is also trying to find who is himself beyond his famous last name.

By the way, he tries to do the right thing, but many times he fails, and he does terrible things or he allows terrible things to happen.

Edited April 1, 2017 by OhOkayWhat
Edited to add the last paragraph

[SeanC]

Just now, OhOkayWhat said:

And that is his own motivation 

It's not, really.  Certainly not one that gives him a dynamic plot.

[OhOkayWhat]

17 minutes ago, SeanC said:

It's not, really.  Certainly not one that gives him a dynamic plot.

It is. By logic. We find show!Tyrion motivations within the show. It is his own motivation.

If the leaks are true he will try to do the right thing. It is dynamic because it shows continuous transformation from the Tyrion of Season 1 only caring about himself to a Tyrion who cares about something beyond himself or his name. Even if he fails trying to do that. And when he fails he does terrible things or allow terrible things to happen.

Edited April 1, 2017 by OhOkayWhat

[SeanC]

3 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

It is. By logic. We find show!Tyrion motivations within the show. It is his own motivation.

You're being overly literal there.  By that logic, every character has their own motivation.  The point is that once Tyrion became swept up in Dany's wake (which will happen in the books too), he needs something dynamic to stand out as more than a functionary in her service, and in the show he doesn't have that.

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If the leaks are true he will try to do the right thing. It is dynamic because it shows continuous transformation from the Tyrion of Season 1 only caring about himself to a Tyrion who cares about something beyond himself or his name. Even if he fails trying to do that.

Tyrion never cared only about himself (not even in the books, where he's much darker).

[OhOkayWhat]

2 minutes ago, SeanC said:

You're being overly literal there.  By that logic, every character has their own motivation.  The point is that once Tyrion became swept up in Dany's wake (which will happen in the books too), he needs something dynamic to stand out as more than a functionary in her service, and in the show he doesn't have that.

Tyrion never cared only about himself (not even in the books, where he's much darker).

But if the leaks are true Tyrion will try to stop violent decisions of Dany. It makes his character dynamic within the Dany crew. Is a force trying to oppose another force, even if he fails. It shows tension within a group. It shows it could change more things in season 8.

You are right, he never cared only about himself. I admitt it. But I feel the circle of people he cares about is growing and growing and it is possible he will care about the whole mankind and the living things at the end of the show, the same way it seems going with show!Sandor.

[Eyes High]

49 minutes ago, SeanC said:

As far as Tyrion's feeling increasingly secondary, while his book plot always seemed destined to merge with Dany's to a great extent, I think what has made the biggest difference in the show is that show!Tyrion doesn't really have his own motivations anymore.  Book!Tyrion is being built up to wreak bloody vengeance on everybody who fucked him over, whereas show!Tyrion is at this point just there to Do The Right Thing.  

So what you're saying is that Tyrion's going to chuck a garbage can through a storefront window in Season 8.

....In all seriousness, I agree. His only motivation in Season 7 seems to be helping Dany achieve her goals in a way that doesn't get Jaime and Cersei killed. TV Tyrion has nothing in the way of personal desires anymore, not even personal ambition, and certainly not revenge. Everything that motivates him in the books has been stripped away from the TV character, and instead they've given him a general desire to do the right thing, as you said.

The bigger question is now that they've taken away his book arc and what many speculated would be his dragon in the books (Viserion), where are they going to go with the character in Season 8?

[SeanC]

39 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

But if the leaks are true Tyrion will try to stop violent decisions of Dany. It makes his character dynamic within the Dany crew.

No, that's purely reactive.  Dany is the dynamic character in the Season 7 leaks; Tyrion just tries to mitigate her desires.

Unrelatedly, and inspired by the teaser:  how close do you think the eventual main trailer for Season 7 will get to actually showing Jon and Dany onscreen together?  The whole ice/fire gimmick with the date reveal confirmed what I always thought, that that's likely to be central to how this season is marketed, but it's possible they'll just have things like Jon saying he's going to go south and meet with her.

Edited April 1, 2017 by SeanC

[OhOkayWhat]

38 minutes ago, SeanC said:

No, that's purely reactive.  Dany is the dynamic character in the Season 7 leaks; Tyrion just tries to mitigate her desires.

If we look around in the web, one of the meanings of "dynamic" is: continuously changing or developing. Just for that, by definition, show!Tyrion is a dynamic character.

Besides that, with him within Dany crew, it seems the level of dissent is growing. That itself is change. That itself, then, is dynamic.

We do not know what the consequences of that dissent will be in the future of this 73 hours long movie, but he already influenced Dany before.

[OhOkayWhat]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

Everything that motivates him in the books has been stripped away from the TV character,

Those books feelings belonged to book!Tyrion and show!Tyrion is a different character from the beginning.

[Eyes High]

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

Unrelatedly, and inspired by the teaser:  how close do you think the eventual main trailer for Season 7 will get to actually showing Jon and Dany onscreen together?  The whole ice/fire gimmick with the date reveal confirmed what I always thought, that that's likely to be central to how this season is marketed, but it's possible they'll just have things like Jon saying he's going to go south and meet with her.

Usually, from what I can recall, the trailers don't spoil big meetings/reunions. They went to some trouble to conceal Tyrion's presence in the dragonpit scene in Season 5 trailers, for example, and also concealed Jon and Sansa's plotline merge in Season 6 in the trailers despite numerous separate shots of both characters. I can see them making an exception for Jon/Dany for marketing purposes, though. As to how close they might get? Season 7 filming leaks had a bit where Jon and Davos, I think, hit the deck fearfully (presumably when a dragon flies overhead), and that might get audiences hyped. There may also be a snippet of Jon being escorted by Tyrion and the Dothraki, talking about Daenerys. I'm guessing the trailers would withhold the "first look" moment when Jon and Dany see each other for the first time, though.

Every trailer from the past few seasons has included footage from every single episode in the season. Given that, thanks to leaks, we have a rough outline of what happens in which episode, it will be interesting to see if there are bits in the trailer that don't correspond to the leaks.

[SeanC]

24 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

and also concealed Jon and Sansa's plotline merge in Season 6 in the trailers despite numerous separate shots of both characters.

The only shots of Jon in the trailers were of his corpse, no?  I think they might have been a bit freer in that regard if they weren't having to avoid revealing he wasn't dead.

[OhOkayWhat]

Maybe they will show Jon face to face with a dragon or talking with Tyrion, while trying to hide where exactly it happens.

[ElizaD]

17 hours ago, Eyes High said:

It doesn't surprise me, both from a plot perspective and from a meta D&D perspective. Tyrion has been doomed to a secondary role ever since he got incorporated into Team Dany, and Jaime would never name himself king (...as interesting as that would be).

 

15 hours ago, SeanC said:

As far as Tyrion's feeling increasingly secondary, while his book plot always seemed destined to merge with Dany's to a great extent, I think what has made the biggest difference in the show is that show!Tyrion doesn't really have his own motivations anymore.  Book!Tyrion is being built up to wreak bloody vengeance on everybody who fucked him over, whereas show!Tyrion is at this point just there to Do The Right Thing.  He's Davos with more screentime (and character relationships).

The lack of motivation might be the #1 culprit. Of course we've yet to see how things play out when season 7 airs and there might be lots of little moments that change the tone of the story, but it feels like Tyrion is undoubtedly the most important member of Dany's crew. . . yet still just one of the crew. Even last year, when he spent most of the time in Meereen without Dany and surrounded by her clearly more B-list supporting cast, there was no sense of urgency. Tyrion was present, but the plot was just waiting for her return: it wasn't a case of Dany dealing with the Dothraki and Tyrion dealing with Meereen, but of Dany fire and blooding first the Dothraki and then the enemies in Meereen. People were joking that Dany was like the mom glaring at the nervous Tyrion/Missandei/Grey Worm because the kids messed up the house while she was gone, and that struck me as kinda accurate.

By contrast, the Stark storyline felt like it was Jon-and-Sansa, not Jon plus Sansa plus random friends: he was clearly the bigger character, but she was distinct from Jon's supporting crew, she had her own big supporting characters in Littlefinger/Brienne, and as frustrating as it was to see Sansa keep secrets just so that the battle could have a big epic save, it meant that she had her own motivations, her own ideas, and conflicts with Jon that affected how they pursued their shared goal. In the end, the victory required both of them. Jon became the KITN, but Sansa got to give the deathblow to the Ramsay storyline and her longterm Littlefinger storyline got adjustments that kept it going until its season 7 resolution could be all about her relationships with Littlefinger/Arya.

So I don't think it would be impossible to have Dany-and-Tyrion in a way where she's clearly the higher-ranking character in their shared storyline but he's still a major mover. It just doesn't sound like that's going to happen in season 7, and I haven't seen any convincing season 8 speculation yet about what he could be doing that would be more about him than Dany's Hand.

About Jon/Dany in the trailer, the teaser footage (though not from the actual episodes) is just the kind of thing I thought they might include if they wanted hype without major spoilers: Jon walking, Dany on her throne, then cut before we actually see them react to each other. If they show Jon/Dany stuff, it's most likely to be from the early episodes, Tyrion talking about the need for allies, or Sansa about the danger of going to Dany, then Jon's arrival, so that there's a bit of tension about what's going to happen.

[GreyBunny]

17 hours ago, SeanC said:

You're being overly literal there.  By that logic, every character has their own motivation.  The point is that once Tyrion became swept up in Dany's wake (which will happen in the books too), he needs something dynamic to stand out as more than a functionary in her service, and in the show he doesn't have that.

I agree, and since this thread includes book talk, it's entirely fair to compare and contrast what a character is doing in the books vs what the character is doing in the show, and express our opinions on whether D&D is doing something better or worse.

In the books, Tyrion is being driven by anger, resentment, depression, betrayal, the loss of the protection of his name and the dangers of being an exile, and his flirtations with sociopathy.  That constellation (which isn't comprehensive) has driven him to put Dany and fAegon on a deadly collision course with each other; he deliberately pulled the rug out from under fAegon without him realizing it by advising him to go west instead of east, and when he meets with Dany, I predict he'll appeal to Dany's worst instincts so he can get what he wants when he returns to Westeros.  There's a lot going on there.  In the TV show, that's been stripped away, and even compared to what ought to drive him in the show, that's been stripped away as well.  It appears they're turning him into Dany's helpmate, not doing much more than telling her, "No, no...be nice with your dragons."  Meh.  The idea that his narrative is that he starts out selfish and then goes on to care about others/something bigger than himself falls apart because he did care about others when the story started.  He cared about Tysha, he cared about Jaime, he hated Joffrey but he cared enough to give the boy good advice, he got to know and cared about Jon, he took his role as Hand seriously and fought to save King's Landing, etc.  

I was listening to one of the many GOT/ASOIAF podcasts out there and they made the point that D&D have a habit of taking things away from characters, failing to replace those things with something comparable, and leaving the characters to do things that make them look stupid.  It's not just GOT, but, for example, Benioff ruined Troy and Wolverine as well.  D&D can do action scenes, but for narrative, intelligent characterization, and consistency, they're not worth shit.

Edited April 2, 2017 by GreyBunny

[YaddaYadda]

2 hours ago, GreyBunny said:

That constellation (which isn't comprehensive) has driven him to put Dany and fAegon on a deadly collision course with each other; he deliberately pulled the rug out from under fAegon without him realizing it by advising him to go west instead of east, and when he meets with Dany, I predict he'll appeal to Dany's worst instincts so he can get what he wants when he returns to Westeros.

Let's add to that the fact that Tyrion seems to have his doubts about fAegon, the story, and how he views the involvement of Illyrio and Varys. 

[Eyes High]

5 hours ago, ElizaD said:

So I don't think it would be impossible to have Dany-and-Tyrion in a way where she's clearly the higher-ranking character in their shared storyline but he's still a major mover. It just doesn't sound like that's going to happen in season 7, and I haven't seen any convincing season 8 speculation yet about what he could be doing that would be more about him than Dany's Hand.

The only thing I can really think in Season 7 of is his attempts to broker some sort of peace in a way that doesn't result in Jaime and Cersei's deaths, thus his side trip to KL to try to convince Jaime to surrender. Even then he's still working to implement Dany's agenda, though.

3 hours ago, GreyBunny said:

In the books, Tyrion is being driven by anger, resentment, depression, betrayal, the loss of the protection of his name and the dangers of being an exile, and his flirtations with sociopathy.  That constellation (which isn't comprehensive) has driven him to put Dany and fAegon on a deadly collision course with each other; he deliberately pulled the rug out from under fAegon without him realizing it by advising him to go west instead of east, and when he meets with Dany, I predict he'll appeal to Dany's worst instincts so he can get what he wants when he returns to Westeros.  There's a lot going on there.  In the TV show, that's been stripped away, and even compared to what ought to drive him in the show, that's been stripped away as well.  It appears they're turning him into Dany's helpmate, not doing much more than telling her, "No, no...be nice with your dragons."  Meh. 

In the show, after Season 4 TV Tyrion never expressed any desire for revenge against the Lannisters. However, he was depressed and even suicidal, and TV Varys' angle in selling him on Dany was that Dany was a ruler worth fighting and worth living for. The feelings of depression and loss were there, but those feelings were never taken out on others as they were in the books (with the exception of needling Jorah about having been caught spying). On the other hand, Book Tyrion has always been a nicer guy than TV Tyrion, so it makes sense that TV Tyrion would lack Book Tyrion's cruelty in dealing with his feelings and would turn his anger inward (by trying to drink himself to death) rather than outward by lashing out at other people.

The show had Tyrion and Dany meet much sooner than they do in the books, and when he meets Dany and earns her trust and respect, TV Tyrion finds a way to be productive and valuable. He finds something and someone to believe in again. Thus Tyrion finds purpose again and emerges from the fog of depression and nihilism of Season 5, and we know this because D&D give Tyrion a little speech where he spells all this out for the audience in 6x10, even though D&D didn't go to much trouble to establish why it is that Tyrion thinks Dany is so great. So there is a bit of an arc there, as clumsily handled as it is.

Unfortunately, as you have pointed out, all this seems to have left TV Tyrion with very little in the way of personal desires or ambitions of his own, other than to be Dany's cheerleader and to serve the greater good, in that order. Even while Yara and Theon are striking bargains with Dany in exchange for their assistance, Tyrion hasn't made one peep about seeking any material advantage for himself or about Casterly Rock, even though Book Tyrion is obsessed with Casterly Rock and even though a few short seasons ago in the show TV Tyrion tried to convince Tywin to allow him to inherit it. TV Tyrion doesn't have any long-term plans at all, unless you count his vineyard dream. TV Tyrion doesn't care about anything anymore except helping Westeros by helping Dany, preferably in a way that doesn't get Jaime killed. He's more or less TV Varys 2.0 at this point.

Quote

I predict he'll appeal to Dany's worst instincts so he can get what he wants when he returns to Westeros.

I disagree. The show seems to hint that the opposite will happen, and that Dany will have the same effect on Tyrion in the books as she had in the show, although I'm guessing it will be more nuanced and thoughtful than the way D&D went about it. It seems likely that Tyrion ends up as Dany's devoted sidekick in the books as well, or at the very least follows a similar trajectory from depression and nihilism to serving a greater cause.

In any event, I think we can safely discard any theories about Book Tyrion failing to pull out of his destructive death spiral or becoming an outright antagonist for Jon and/or Dany. I think spoilers for Season 7 have established that that's never going to happen, although to me it was pretty clear from Seasons 5 and 6. 

1 hour ago, YaddaYadda said:

Let's add to that the fact that Tyrion seems to have his doubts about fAegon, the story, and how he views the involvement of Illyrio and Varys. 

Yes. Varys is also a very different, much more sinister character in the books and Book Tyrion has good reason to doubt Varys, which adds a different complexion to that particular plot, whereas TV Varys, apart from his revenge on the man who mutilated him, is a much more benign figure, has wholly noble and benevolent motives, has what appears to be a genuine friendship with Tyrion, and only cares about the good of Westeros, not about a Targ (or Blackfyre, depending on which theory you buy) restoration per se.

Edited April 2, 2017 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

A few of us mentioned Varys, which for whatever reason called to mind this interview that Conleth Hill gave a few months ago.  He was asked about potentially seeing Varys and Littlefinger meet again, and offered this:

Quote

Recently, The Huffington Post spoke with Conleth Hill, the actor who plays Varys on the HBO series, and asked him if perhaps we’ve all been paying attention to the wrong characters. Are Varys and Littlefinger the ones to watch?

“Very interesting question,“ he said, before teasing a possible meetup in Season 7. “I can tell you that I loved working with Aidan Gillen (Littlefinger), and I can tell you that it’s possible we work together again,” he said, adding, “But not definite.”

Though Hill gets cheeky at the end of his comments, a meetup is almost certainly happening. The two are basically on a collision course, with each playing the role of a master puppeteer. 

Since it was an interviewer question, I imagine Hill is just trying to be mysterious, since the Season 7 leaks don't contain any indications they meet again, and beyond that, I really can't see how that would even fit into the plot at this point.  Lots of people (not me, mind you, but plenty of people) really love their scenes together, so I expect to see a lot of complaints if they never see each other again before Littlefinger dies.

[GrailKing]

On 3/30/2017 at 1:56 PM, Eyes High said:

The promo people were having a bit of fun with the music (a version of Sit Down by James):

"Those who feel the breath of sadness..." [shot of Jon]

"Those who find they're touched by madness..." [shot of Cersei]

Not loving the design of Cersei's gown, as impressive as the embroidery is.

I think it's the added collar with spikes.

[OhOkayWhat]

It is not we cannot compare the show with the books or to say this or that storyline is better or worse, the question is: under what standards we are judging or comparing both? 

It is a bad narrative move to transport Tyrion feelings from ADWD to the last seasons of GoT, simply because he has his own feelings from the beginning.

And I do not see a narrative problem with Tyrion's motivation change. This change makes him a dynamic character. Certainly he cared about people beyond himself before,  maybe he cared about all the people living in KL and beyond, but even that was subject to a continuous tranformation: it is possible that all the things Tyrion told the people in his trial (season 4) was true. It is also important to remember one of his main motivations was to prove Tywin that he was wrong about him. In other words he changes and I find very interesting to watch him rebuilding and also to see dissent inside Dany crew.

By the way, to include fAegon only to have a Tyrion with a different motivations or more things to do is a bad move within the narrative of the show. It is a shift so big within the show plot that the consequences obviously will not be limited to Tyrion. With only 73 hours planned to finish the story, to include fAegon it is not a good move, even if we forget problems as schedule or budget.

Besides that, I do not think we need another character looking for vengueance, money or power, we have characters doing that already.

[Meredith Quill]

Mod Note:

Please take discussion/dissection of Tyrion's character and/or differences between the books and the show to an appropriate topic; any further off-topic posts will be removed.

Thanks.

[OhOkayWhat]

Speculation about the scene with Arya and Nymeria in the leaks: What if it is not just what the leaks say about the direwolf but also that Nymeria feels something weird is going on with Arya (example: the Faceless Men magic influence on Arya)

Edited April 4, 2017 by OhOkayWhat

[SeanC]

HBO released a promo video with castmembers from their whole programming lineup.  You can see gifs of the Game of Thrones castmembers in some of their Season 7 costumes, albeit with iffy video quality and rather weird lighting.

Bran's got some nicer clothes for the first time in several seasons.

Edited April 4, 2017 by SeanC

[GrailKing]

3 minutes ago, SeanC said:

HBO released a promo video with castmembers from their whole programming lineup.  You can see gifs of the Game of Thrones castmembers in some of their Season 7 costumes, albeit with iffy video quality and rather weird lighting.

Bran's got some nicer clothes for the first time in several seasons.

Looks like they are staying with Sansa's needle necklace, I only remember her wearing it in scenes with LF, but I could be misremembering. 

[SeanC]

2 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Looks like they are staying with Sansa's needle necklace, I only remember her wearing it in scenes with LF, but I could be misremembering. 

That I could have done without, personally; everything about that look was garish (and kind of hilarious, in retrospect, once you know what "Dark Sansa" amounted to).  

Since Sansa's not on the run she'll probably have a range of costumes again this year, so I hope we'll still see her Season 6 wolf dress, which is my favourite of her standard looks in the series.

[ElizaD]

I wasn't a fan of the necklace either, but I bet it's coming back for the payoff of Sansa wearing it when she orders Littlefinger's execution. Her wig looks iffy. And everyone looks so covered up! Another thing that makes the ending feel like it's finally here, even Dany has escaped the heat and filler plots of the east.

[Eyes High]

6 hours ago, GrailKing said:

Looks like they are staying with Sansa's needle necklace, I only remember her wearing it in scenes with LF, but I could be misremembering. 

What's of more interest to me is Bran's look. Are the white eyes a permanent thing now? I thought that one of the leakers hinted that there was a reason that Bran wasn't shown in the December promo along with the other Starklings.

Dany looks gorgeous. 

6 hours ago, SeanC said:

That I could have done without, personally; everything about that look was garish (and kind of hilarious, in retrospect, once you know what "Dark Sansa" amounted to).  

Since Sansa's not on the run she'll probably have a range of costumes again this year, so I hope we'll still see her Season 6 wolf dress, which is my favourite of her standard looks in the series.

It looks like they're sticking with a dark blue palette for Sansa if this costume is any indication, which suits me fine, since the colour looks great on her.

[GrailKing]

12 hours ago, ElizaD said:

I wasn't a fan of the necklace either, but I bet it's coming back for the payoff of Sansa wearing it when she orders Littlefinger's execution. Her wig looks iffy. And everyone looks so covered up! Another thing that makes the ending feel like it's finally here, even Dany has escaped the heat and filler plots of the east.

Wig looks fine, the harsh light makes her and the others look like Madame Tussauds wax figurines.

Since they did not use the hairnet as a hanging gun, maybe Sansa's needle is.

[whateverdgaf]

7 hours ago, Eyes High said:

What's of more interest to me is Bran's look. Are the white eyes a permanent thing now? I thought that one of the leakers hinted that there was a reason that Bran wasn't shown in the December promo along with the other Starklings.

Dany looks gorgeous. 

It looks like they're sticking with a dark blue palette for Sansa if this costume is any indication, which suits me fine, since the colour looks great on her.

 In a bunch of articles I have read about the costuming in season 1, it's noted that the Starks often wear dark blues, but Sansa wears light blue to symbolize her removal from her family and her desire to be a proper lady. I think it's interesting that she is now sticking to the dark blue. On one hand, it can symbolize that her family and the North now take priority for her as opposed to her own ambition, or she may be doing so intentionally in order to emphasize to the Northerners that she is (seemingly) Ned Stark's last trueborn child in order to gain their allegiance .

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, whateverdgaf said:

 In a bunch of articles I have read about the costuming in season 1, it's noted that the Starks often wear dark blues, but Sansa wears light blue to symbolize her removal from her family and her desire to be a proper lady. I think it's interesting that she is now sticking to the dark blue. On one hand, it can symbolize that her family and the North now take priority for her as opposed to her own ambition, or she may be doing so intentionally in order to emphasize to the Northerners that she is (seemingly) Ned Stark's last trueborn child in order to gain their allegiance .

Yeah, Sansa's colour palette journey has been...interesting. A lot of the colours used over the seasons have looked terrible on Sophie, and a lot of the dresses were downright hideous, too (there were some really ugly prints that Michele Clapton used for Sophie's coatdress-type costumes). I love the costumes in general, but there are winners and losers in the GOT costume department, and Sansa so far has been one of the losers. (Not surprisingly, the Lannisters have made out pretty well in the costume department overall, although Cersei had a rough Season 1.) I'm crossing my fingers for something on the order of Cersei's showstopping Season 3 gowns in Season 7. Sansa's dress designs so far have been uninspiring, even if I get conceptually what Michele Clapton was trying to convey. Even the wolf dress design has issues, in my opinion. Hopefully, she gets at least one new dress in Season 7, although they've been stingy with her costumes for the last few years.

With the costumes, there are so many interesting plot/character touches with the clothes that I don't even notice until they're pointed out to me. A lot of fans complained when the Tyrells were introduced that they wore light blues, not greens, which is true. In recent seasons, though, Michele Clapton started using much darker and bolder greens on Mace and the other Tyrells to show that they were growing more confident in their use of power. Very cool.

On another note, there's something thrilling about seeing Dany's red cloak in the promo materials. Full Targ colours! At last! 

Actual Season 7 news: 

We knew that Ed Sheeran had a GOT cameo for Season 7, and he recently said that he filmed scenes with Maisie in November. By his reckoning, he's only in the show for five minutes (probably less than that given that the average scene in GOT lasts under five minutes). He said that his character doesn't die.  

Some musicians on the show have performed in character (Of Monsters and Men, Sigur Ros, the Coldplay drummer at the Red Wedding, etc.), and some haven't (the Mastodon wight extras), so it's anyone's guess as to whether Ed Sheeran will sing or not in his cameo. 

Given what we know of Season 7, doesn't it seem like this will take place fairly early in the season? If Ed Sheeran doesn't die, he likely won't take place in the Frey massacre scene in 7x01. It also seems unlikely that Ed Sheeran would have scenes with "Maisie" but not with any other named character at Winterfell (unless there are other characters in the scene and that's being kept under wraps so as not to spoil Arya's return to Winterfell). So would it happen while she's traveling to Winterfell? And if so, what sort of role would he have? We don't know much of what Arya's up to between the time she leaves the Twins and the time she arrives at Winterfell (other than her Nymeria encounter, which Ed Sheeran wouldn't have been part of since it was filmed in Canada), but there's room for some or other scene, I guess.

Didn't Lads2 say that Arya meets Hot Pie again in Episode 2 at the Inn of the Crossroads? Maybe Ed Sheeran plays a cook at the Inn at the Crossroads or something. 

Edited April 4, 2017 by Eyes High

[Edith]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

 Actual Season 7 news: 

We knew that Ed Sheeran had a GOT cameo for Season 7, and he recently said that he filmed scenes with Maisie in November. By his reckoning, he's only in the show for five minutes (probably less than that given that the average scene in GOT lasts under five minutes). He said that his character doesn't die.  

Some musicians on the show have performed in character (Of Monsters and Men, Sigur Ros, the Coldplay drummer at the Red Wedding, etc.), and some haven't (the Mastodon wight extras), so it's anyone's guess as to whether Ed Sheeran will sing or not in his cameo. 

Given what we know of Season 7, doesn't it seem like this will take place fairly early in the season? If Ed Sheeran doesn't die, he likely won't take place in the Frey massacre scene in 7x01. It also seems unlikely that Ed Sheeran would have scenes with "Maisie" but not with any other named character at Winterfell (unless there are other characters in the scene and that's being kept under wraps so as not to spoil Arya's return to Winterfell). So would it happen while she's traveling to Winterfell? And if so, what sort of role would he have? We don't know much of what Arya's up to between the time she leaves the Twins and the time she arrives at Winterfell (other than her Nymeria encounter, which Ed Sheeran wouldn't have been part of since it was filmed in Canada), but there's room for some or other scene, I guess.

Didn't Lads2 say that Arya meets Hot Pie again in Episode 2 at the Inn of the Crossroads? Maybe Ed Sheeran plays a cook at the Inn at the Crossroads or something. 

But the Inn of the Crossroads is south from the Twins, so either Lads2 is fake or Arya actually goes south first before changing her mind (Nymeria maybe?) and going to Winterfell. It could be an explanation of why takes Arya four episodes to get home. 

[Eyes High]

11 minutes ago, Edith said:

But the Inn of the Crossroads is south from the Twins, so either Lads2 is fake or Arya actually goes south first before changing her mind (Nymeria maybe?) and going to Winterfell. It could be an explanation of why takes Arya four episodes to get home. 

No, I agree, the geography makes no sense. It is possible that Arya is on her way to KL to cross Cersei off her list, emboldened by her success at the Twins, and that her alleged conversation with Hot Pie at the Inn--where he informs her that Cersei blew up the sept--changes her mind. 

It seems like as good a place as any to insert a gratuitous celebrity cameo. Maybe Sheeran plays a guy Arya asks to fetch Hot Pie from the Inn's kitchen.

Edited April 4, 2017 by Eyes High

[Edith]

48 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

No, I agree, the geography makes no sense. It is possible that Arya is on her way to KL to cross Cersei off her list, emboldened by her success at the Twins, and that her alleged conversation with Hot Pie at the Inn--where he informs her that Cersei blew up the sept--changes her mind. 

It seems like as good a place as any to insert a gratuitous celebrity cameo. Maybe Sheeran plays a guy Arya asks to fetch Hot Pie from the Inn's kitchen.

If that is the case then I think maybe hearing that Jon and Sansa took back Winterfell or that Jon is the new KITN or a combination of both should be the catalyst for Arya to change her mind!

[YaddaYadda]

Do they care about geography though?

Since news of the battle at Winterfell is supposed to spread "quickly", maybe Arya finds out what happened back home and decides she wants to reunite with her family?

ETA - @Edith beat my by like a second. 

Edited April 4, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[Eyes High]

37 minutes ago, Edith said:

If that is the case then I think maybe hearing that Jon and Sansa took back Winterfell or that Jon is the new KITN or a combination of both should be the catalyst for Arya to change her mind!

 

37 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

Do they care about geography though?

Since news of the battle at Winterfell is supposed to spread "quickly", maybe Arya finds out what happened back home and decides she wants to reunite with her family?

ETA - @Edith beat my by like a second. 

I hope so. The only information that Lads2 specifically says Hot Pie conveyed is that Cersei blew up the sept, but there could be more.

Assuming that D&D haven't messed up their geography and that Arya is going to turn around after going south, why would the information that Cersei blew up the sept make Arya change her mind? Maybe she realizes that Cersei will be too well guarded as queen regnant or too dangerous to take on alone.

I do like the idea that Hot Pie fills her in on Jon being named KITN and that the Starks have retaken Winterfell and that prompts Arya to make a beeline for Winterfell. 

[Edith]

2 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

Do they care about geography though?

Since news of the battle at Winterfell is supposed to spread "quickly", maybe Arya finds out what happened back home and decides she wants to reunite with her family?

ETA - @Edith beat my by like a second. 

Great minds think alike! :)

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

 

I hope so. The only information that Lads2 specifically says Hot Pie conveyed is that Cersei blew up the sept, but there could be more.

Assuming that D&D haven't messed up their geography and that Arya is going to turn around after going south, why would the information that Cersei blew up the sept make Arya change her mind? Maybe she realizes that Cersei will be too well guarded as queen regnant or too dangerous to take on alone.

I do like the idea that Hot Pie fills her in on Jon being named KITN and that the Starks have retaken Winterfell and that prompts Arya to make a beeline for Winterfell. 

More information from Lads2 

Ok, so here's the skinny on this.

Halfway through the first episode Arya meets some Lannister soldiers on the Kingsroad. As the soldiers enter the scene, one of them (Ed) is singing a song for the others. 

The lyrics are as follows:

He rode through the streets of the city, Down from his hill on high, O'er the wynds and the steps and the cobblesHe rode to a woman's sigh

For she was his secret treasure She was his shame and his bliss And a chain and a keep are nothing Compared to a woman's kiss.

(and the rest of the soldiers join him for the chorus)

For hands of gold are always cold but a woman's hands are warm

So they meet Arya, and we're supposed to think she will kill them, but they invite her to join them for supper, and she shares a meal with them. They talk about recent events, and how they are on their way to help fortify the Twins, and she realises that they have no love for their Lannister masters, and are just a bunch of fishermen who would rather be back at their work. So she sits and enjoys having some pleasant company for the evening. 

[Eyes High]

38 minutes ago, Edith said:

Great minds think alike! :)

More information from Lads2 

Ok, so here's the skinny on this.

Halfway through the first episode Arya meets some Lannister soldiers on the Kingsroad. As the soldiers enter the scene, one of them (Ed) is singing a song for the others. 

The lyrics are as follows:

He rode through the streets of the city, Down from his hill on high, O'er the wynds and the steps and the cobblesHe rode to a woman's sigh

For she was his secret treasure She was his shame and his bliss And a chain and a keep are nothing Compared to a woman's kiss.

(and the rest of the soldiers join him for the chorus)

For hands of gold are always cold but a woman's hands are warm

So they meet Arya, and we're supposed to think she will kill them, but they invite her to join them for supper, and she shares a meal with them. They talk about recent events, and how they are on their way to help fortify the Twins, and she realises that they have no love for their Lannister masters, and are just a bunch of fishermen who would rather be back at their work. So she sits and enjoys having some pleasant company for the evening. 

Eeeee, it's the "hands of gold" song, aka the ratting-out-Tyrion-and-Shae-to-Tywin song that got Symon Silver Tongue baked into a bowl of brown back in ACOK! I wonder if there will be any explanation for the lyrics by the soldiers, or whether it will be a bit of an Easter egg for book readers. I've enjoyed the melodies they've used for the other songs, so hopefully it will sound nice when set to music. I wonder if Ed's character will be named Symon, LOL.

As for the rest, that's...kind of pointless, unless Arya receives important information about what's been going on in Westeros and makes decisions accordingly. Reminds me of the filler-type Hound/Arya Season 4 road trip scenes, minus the Hound. The "recent events" could be another way of cluing Arya in to everything that's been going on--Jon and Sansa retaking Winterfell, the fall of the Boltons, the fall of Riverrun, the Blackfish's death, Tommen and the Tyrells' deaths, Cersei naming herself queen, etc.--although according to Lads2 it's Hot Pie who fills her in about the sept explosion. 

[nikma]

On 3/31/2017 at 4:12 AM, SeanC said:

 

However, D&D's 'solution' instead was basically to do the absolute minimum they could with Bran, to the point where audience interest withered so much that it may be beyond salvage.  

Yes, but book audience interest in Bran's storyline is also the same. 

[YaddaYadda]

HBO has another ahhh promo out, and there's a really good look at some of the costumes.

The Stark children in their furs, Arya back to her roots, Brienne has a more northern look to her. I'm half hoping that Hodor being shown in the promo isn't because he's going to be turned into a wight, but I've been expecting it, so who am I kidding.