SeanC January 4, 2017 Share January 4, 2017 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Eyes High said: You overestimate Sansa. Given Sansa's questionable history when it comes to personal ambition and family loyalties, she would be too dangerous a question mark for GRRM to leave at Winterfell or at court to potentially start shit at some indeterminate point in the future, particularly if Starks wind up not only in charge at Winterfell but also at court. Sansa, just like all the other potential shit-disturbers like Littlefinger, needs to be out of the picture, once and for all. Sansa is a "potential shit-disturber"? She blundered in AGOT when she thought she was acting out a fairy tale. She's otherwise not remotely the type who rocks the boat. Quote Nothing we have seen suggests that Sansa would be satisfied with a "supporting role at court" subordinate to one or more of her siblings. The show seems to be doubling down on this as well with Sansa chafing at being subordinate to Jon and fighting with Arya over politics in Season 7, according to Awayforthelads' spoilers. Sansa could never be trusted to serve her family in a subordinate role without ever letting ambition eventually get the better of her. GRRM will have to kill her off or ship her off. Show!Sansa is pretty much a completely different character at this point, and her ambition is one of the biggest differences. Book!Sansa's fondest wish is for people to leave her alone, and has no interest in her claim (indeed, she resents it). She's essentially being forced to learn to play the game of thrones for lack of other options, because nobody else will look out for her. Quote Besides, what sort of "supporting role at court" for Sansa do you envisage? Sansa and Tyrion staring at each other awkwardly across the table at Small Council meetings? You don't need to be on the Small Council to have a role at court. There's a whole female power structure in courts, one that Sansa has been seeing in operation. And I was thinking of the court at Winterfell, not King's Landing, since Winterfell is the centre of the Stark world (whatever their status at the end of the series might be). Quote Even rough and tumble Asha, who's all about busting barriers and flouting conventions, is matter of fact about not being able to marry Qarl, even though she seems to love him and even though Balon is dead: "A shy smile, strong arms, clever fingers, and two sure swords. What more could any woman want? She would have married Qarl, and gladly, but she was Lord Balon's daughter and he was common-born, the grandson of a thrall. Too lowborn for me to wed, but not too low for me to suck his cock." Asha is hoping to break convention and lead the Ironborn, so what other people think matters quite a lot. And also, from that description, Qarl is far, far below Sandor Clegane, socially. She's also speaking in the context of the world of Westeros at that moment, rather than whatever the world looks like at the end of this story. Basically, in order for Sansa to have to disappear into the mist to be with Sandor, you have to turn Jon or Bran into the enforcers of this exile. Quote Are you sure about that? Jon married Alys off to Sigorn without blinking. He didn't demand, but she clearly was not thrilled about his solution to her problems, as her pointed commentary made clear, and he didn't care. As you note, Jon married Alys to Sigorn (and Alys went along with it) because it was the solution to Alys' own situation. No, I don't at all believe he would have forced her. He might have said there was nothing else he could do for her if she didn't want to, and that might be the case, but he was trying to help, which Alys recognizes. Not at all comparable to demanding Sansa, after everything she's been through, marry somebody he picks out for her. Edited January 4, 2017 by SeanC Link to comment
Eyes High January 4, 2017 Share January 4, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, SeanC said: Sansa is a "potential shit-disturber"? She blundered in AGOT when she thought she was acting out a fairy tale. She's otherwise not remotely the type who rocks the boat. She didn't "blunder when she thought she was acting out a fairy tale," she knowingly went behind her father's back to try to thwart his plans. Classic shit-disturbing. I know you like Sansa and all, but come on. Sansa has always been happy to "rock the boat" when it gets her what she wants, with varying results. Tell the truth about Joffrey attacking Mycah? Fuck that. Allow herself to be shipped back to Winterfell? Fuck that. Stay trapped in KL? Fuck that. Stay unhappily married to Tyrion? Fuck that. Quote Show!Sansa is pretty much a completely different character at this point, and her ambition is one of the biggest differences. Book!Sansa's fondest wish is for people to leave her alone, and has no interest in her claim (indeed, she resents it). I don't think so. Sansa, ever the romantic, resents being married or wanted for her claim. The claim itself she doesn't mind, except insofar as it guarantees her only opportunistic suitors in her mind. She proudly thinks of herself as heir to Winterfell. Sansa's wish to marry Joffrey in AGOT was just as much about her desire to be queen as about her love for him, so it's a mistake to suggest that ambition is not a part of Book Sansa's character; it clearly is. Book Sansa was burned by the Joffrey debacle, so she quite sensibly was happy to be rid of Joffrey even if it meant that she would no longer be queen, but I think we can expect her ambition to reappear when she realizes that she's been disinherited in favour of Jon. Quote You don't need to be on the Small Council to have a role at court. There's a whole female power structure in courts, one that Sansa has been seeing in operation. And I was thinking of the court at Winterfell I doubt TV Sansa will take very well to bowing and scraping to someone else when she apparently spends Season 7 running Winterfell, or that Book Sansa will easily swallow the knowledge that she has been stripped of her inheritance by Robb and resign herself to serving Jon or whomever. AGOT Sansa was gleeful at the prospect of Arya bowing and scraping to her; I doubt she'll be thrilled when the shoe's on the other foot. Wherever her endgame, it's not at Winterfell. (And given her apparent intention never to leave Winterfell again in the show, it's yet another death flag. She can't stay at Winterfell to seethe and cause trouble for the new lord or lady, and she's made it clear in the show she has no intention of ever leaving Winterfell again, so what's left for her? Death.) Quote She's also speaking in the context of the world of Westeros at that moment, rather than whatever the world looks like at the end of this story. It's an indication that the supposed great social upheavals taking place in Westeros are insufficient to eliminate certain social barriers, as they're viewed as sacrosanct even by those looking to break other barriers. Asha doesn't even resent that she can't marry Qarl; she just takes it as a given, much like Cersei's "LOL, no" reaction when Littlefinger offered to marry Sansa, as much as she likes and values him and as much as she thinks so little of Sansa. Quote Basically, in order for Sansa to have to disappear into the mist to be with Sandor, you have to turn Jon or Bran into the enforcers of this exile. There are many reasons why Sansa would chuck it all to vanish with Sandor, as I have said. I specifically dispute the claim that it would be out of character for Jon or Bran to demand that Sansa marry. The Tullys forced Edmure into marrying a Frey girl. Given the right circumstances, both Jon and Bran would in a heartbeat. Quote As you note, Jon married Alys to Sigorn (and Alys went along with it) because it was the solution to Alys' own situation. No, I don't at all believe he would have forced her. He ignored her blunt objections to his choice of husband and didn't seem overly concerned for her happiness in the marriage. He asked her at the wedding whether she was scared. A bit late for that. Nor do I think Jon is all that different from the Tullys, who were not above strongarming Edmure into a most unwanted (at the time) marriage when push came to shove. Edited January 4, 2017 by Eyes High Link to comment
SeanC January 4, 2017 Share January 4, 2017 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Eyes High said: She didn't "blunder when she thought she was acting out a fairy tale," she knowingly went behind her father's back to try to thwart his plans. Classic shit-disturbing. I know you like Sansa and all, but come on. Sansa has always been happy to "rock the boat" when it gets her what she wants, with varying results. I don't agree there at all. Book!Sansa was the girl who was raised to do whatever her parents told her to, and, until the events of AGOT, had always done so. I expect that's why Ned is so certain she'll do whatever he says without question, which turns out to be wrong, when she engages in her first big act of rebellion; with ensuing disastrous consequences. Sansa had been fed and thoroughly digested a certain storybook notion of how her life was destined to go, and being queen was part of her romantic fantasy, but on becoming acquainted with the realities of power, her lack of interest in it has been quite consistent. She doesn't want anything to do with the game of thrones, and while she's proud of her Stark heritage, she doesn't think about ruling Winterfell or whatever. Sansa's most consistent desire is romantic fulfillment, and her claim, when she thinks of it, is almost entirely filtered in those terms, i.e., an obstacle to what she wants. Quote (And given her apparent intention never to leave Winterfell again in the show, it's yet another death flag. She can't stay at Winterfell to seethe and cause trouble for the new lord or lady, and she's made it clear in the show she has no intention of ever leaving Winterfell again, so what's left for her? Death.) That doesn't follow at all. She has tension with her siblings in the show regarding authority; that's something that can be resolved by coming to a better understanding, for instance. Death is not the only option. Quote It's an indication that the supposed great social upheavals taking place in Westeros are insufficient to eliminate certain social barriers, as they're viewed as sacrosanct even by those looking to break other barriers. Asha doesn't even resent that she can't marry Qarl; she just takes it as a given, much like Cersei's "LOL, no" reaction when Littlefinger offered to marry Sansa, as much as she likes and values him and as much as she thinks so little of Sansa. The succession squabbles in the Iron Islands are not even remotely in the same category as the upheaval the Long Night promises to bring, and, as noted, the Hound is of much higher social status than Qarl anyway. Asha and Sansa are different people in terms of what they want, or might want, as well. As noted, Duncan the Small wed a peasant girl and still lived in royal circles for the rest of his life. Quote He ignored her blunt objections to his choice of husband and didn't seem overly concerned for her happiness in the marriage. He asked her at the wedding whether she was scared. A bit late for that. Nor do I think Jon is all that different the Tullys, who were not above strongarming Edmure into a most unwanted (at the time) marriage when push came to shove. Alys came to him for help, and he found what he felt was the only way to help her, given his position. She agreed. I very much struggle to imagine a situation where marrying Sansa off is that important after the apocalypse, unless Jon has to promise her to the Night's King or something. Edited January 4, 2017 by SeanC 2 Link to comment
Eyes High January 4, 2017 Share January 4, 2017 (edited) 33 minutes ago, SeanC said: I don't agree there at all. Book!Sansa was the girl who was raised to do whatever her parents told her to, and, until the events of AGOT, had always done so. What she did before ASOIAF is irrelevant, particularly with respect to predicting her future behaviour. How she conducts herself during ASOIAF is as someone happy to "rock the boat" if it gets her what she wants. She even lied about not remembering what had happened with Joffrey and Mycah despite having confessed the whole story to her father. Quote and her claim, when she thinks of it, is almost entirely filtered in those terms, i.e., an obstacle to what she wants. I wholly disagree. Look at this passage: "She wasn't a beggar, no matter what her aunt said. She was thirteen, a woman flowered and wed, the heir to Winterfell." There's pride there. She rejects her aunt's suggestion that she's nothing by thinking to herself that she's not nothing; she's the heir to Winterfell. Being the heir to Winterfell is a source of confidence and self-esteem for her, not a mere obstacle for her romantic hopes as you suggest. Quote That doesn't follow at all. She has tension with her siblings in the show regarding authority; that's something that can be resolved by coming to a better understanding, for instance. Death is not the only option. Considering that GRRM only invented Sansa to drum up conflict between the Stark siblings, that seems like a very weak argument to me. It's like saying that all hope is not lost for Cersei and Tyrion's relationship, and that Cersei and Tyrion can work out their issues with some inner work and improved communication skills. I mean, sure, in a perfect world, Sansa and her siblings could permanently resolve their differences with no shadow of ill will or questionable loyalty, but that's not the story GRRM is writing and if the outline is to be believed, it's never been the story he's writing. Sansa's identity in the outline and in ASOIAF has first and foremost been as the Stark with questionable loyalty who has issues with other family members and who, in the outline, anyway, is destined to die. I expect that will come back in a big way in the books; it already has in the show. And as we've seen in the show, Sansa's desire for control and resentment of being passed over for a sibling are being established as key character points. I expect that to become part of her book character as well, once she realizes that Littlefinger's promise of delivering Winterfell is a pipe dream and that she's been disinherited. An endgame romance with Sandor and a permanent escape from court life would likely salve the wound, though. Sansa running off with a nobody and permanently removing herself from the game of thrones would be the ultimate revenge on Littlefinger and his ambitions for her as well. If Sansa thrives as a player post-LF, making a good marriage and ending up as this or that great lady, Littlefinger would be vindicated in some measure. Better for her to realize, War Games-style, that the only way to win is not to play and get the last laugh at Littlefinger's expense. Quote Asha and Sansa are different people in terms of what they want, or might want, as well. They are similar in that they are both bound by the same social conventions that are unlikely to be changed anytime soon. As for Duncan the Small, that's a poor example. Asha doesn't consider that that permissiveness applies to her, no more than the Targs' permissiveness towards incest applies to non-Targs. Quote I very much struggle to imagine a situation where marrying Sansa off is that important after the apocalypse My point was that the suggestion that it's out of character for Jon or Bran to demand that Sansa marry is not based on the text. It's not the only possible reason why Sansa might decide to chuck it and run off with Sandor, but it's a potential scenario, yes. Edited January 4, 2017 by Eyes High Link to comment
SeanC January 4, 2017 Share January 4, 2017 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Eyes High said: What she did before ASOIAF is irrelevant, particularly with respect to predicting her future behaviour. How she conducts herself during ASOIAF is as someone happy to "rock the boat" if it gets her what she wants. What she did before ASOIAF is relevant, because it establishes the baseline for her character. The instance you're citing, in AGOT, is a new kind of thing for her (as she herself thinks, she's never not done what her parents told her to do before, hence feeling "wicked as Arya"). And the whole point of that story was her being woken up from the romantic fantasy she thought she was living in. Sansa's behaviour elsewhere in the series is fairly consistently as among the least likely people to rock the boat; indeed, her ability to try to mentally accommodate herself to unpleasant situations is actually probably the biggest character flaw she's going to have to reckon with in the coming books. Quote I wholly disagree. Look at this passage: "She wasn't a beggar, no matter what her aunt said. She was thirteen, a woman flowered and wed, the heir to Winterfell." There's pride there. She rejects her aunt's suggestion that she's nothing by thinking to herself that she's not nothing; she's the heir to Winterfell. Being the heir to Winterfell is a source of confidence and self-esteem for her, not a mere obstacle for her romantic hopes as you suggest. That is indeed the one instance where she actually thinks of herself as heir, when she's trying to talk herself up to confronting Lysa about not wanting to marry Robert (and, again, note the way it revolves around her romantic prospects). That's her heritage. But she doesn't behave like a dispossessed heir ready to reclaim the birthright. We have quite a few such characters floating around ASOIAF. Arguably, in fact, having that kind of motivation might have been a good thing for Sansa in terms of encouraging her to be more assertive and proactive. But that's not the kind of character she is. Quote Considering that GRRM only invented Sansa to drum up conflict between the Stark siblings, that seems like a pretty weak argument to me. It's like saying that Cersei and Tyrion can work out their issues with some inner work and improved communication skills. I mean, sure, in a perfect world, Sansa and her siblings could permanently resolve their differences with no shadow of ill will or questionable loyalty, but that's not the story GRRM is writing and if the outline is to be believed, it's never been the story he's writing. Giving characters personal conflicts that they can work out and come to a better understanding of each other with is one of the basics of narrative planning. As well, the only sibling conflict in the books is Sansa and Arya's personality clashes, which don't have anything to do with political power (power that, it appears, neither is likely to wield anyway, since Jon or Bran are the heirs). Quote And as we've seen in the show, Sansa's desire for control and resentment of being passed over for a sibling are being established as key character points. I expect that to become part of her book character as well, once she realizes that Littlefinger's promise of delivering Winterfell is a pipe dream and that she's been disinherited. I don't. Book!Sansa wants to live in Winterfell, yes, but she's not demonstrated anything like the sort of singleminded desire to be in charge. Indeed, she's the sort of character who would rather not be in charge, from what we've seen. GRRM's dynamic with Sansa in the books has been fairly consistent, that she really just wants to be left alone, but is essentially being dragooned by events into learning to play the game and, I expect, become her own hero. Edited January 4, 2017 by SeanC 1 Link to comment
Eyes High January 4, 2017 Share January 4, 2017 (edited) 20 minutes ago, SeanC said: What she did before ASOIAF is relevant, because it establishes the baseline for her character. That baseline is not at all helpful, particularly when Alayne circa TWOW is doing and saying things that pre-AGOT Sansa would have never done or said. Even as early as AGOT, Sansa was happy to go against the grain when it accomplished her goals, as I said. Quote Sansa's behaviour elsewhere in the series is fairly consistently as among the least likely people to rock the boat Except that there have been numerous instances of Sansa rocking the boat when it accomplishes her aims, as I have said. A Sansa as petrified of rocking the boat as you claim would never have met with Dontos, much less carry out an escape plan. Nor would she have refused to kneel at her wedding to Tyrion. Nor would she have resolved (eventually) to tell Lysa that she refused to marry Sweetrobin. Quote That is indeed the one instance where she actually thinks of herself as heir, when she's trying to talk herself up to confronting Lysa about not wanting to marry Robert (and, again, note the way it revolves around her romantic prospects). That's her heritage. But she doesn't behave like a dispossessed heir ready to reclaim the birthright. My point was that your suggestion that Sansa resents her claim is wrong. It is a source of pride and confidence for her. That it is not immediately a source of ambition does not negate that. Quote Giving characters personal conflicts that they can work out and come to a better understanding of each other with is one of the basics of narrative planning. Except that GRRM is aware that people don't work their shit out, that human nature will out, and ASOIAF, with its many bitter, unresolved inter-family conflicts, reflects that truth. I don't know about "narrative planning," but I do know that much of great literature rests on bitter, intractable family conflict. ASOIAF, although I don't consider it great literature, has that in common with great literature; it isn't an afterschool special or a Lifetime movie. Characters are not necessarily destined for a "better understanding of each other." They don't hold hands and learn to work out their issues. Their issues drive them to horrible, tragic impasses. Saying Sansa doesn't have to die because she could theoretically resolve her issues with her siblings and suppress her less lovely personality traits is like saying that Lady Macbeth doesn't have to commit suicide, because she could find constructive ways of dealing with her guilt. That's really not how this works. Quote I don't. Book!Sansa wants to live in Winterfell, yes, but she's not demonstrated anything like the sort of singleminded desire to be in charge. Not yet. We do know that she's proud of her claim, and that at one time, anyway, she allowed her ambition to trump her love for her family with disastrous results. It looks like GRRM is setting the stage for a recurrence. We'll see how it plays out. Whatever happens, I can guarantee it's not going to end well for Sansa. The SanSan speculation is fun to toy with as a potential alternative, but let's be real: her death warrant was likely signed back in 1993. Edited January 4, 2017 by Eyes High Link to comment
SeanC January 4, 2017 Share January 4, 2017 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Eyes High said: Except that there have been numerous instances of Sansa rocking the boat when it accomplishes her aims, as I have said. She misunderstood the situation in AGOT and disobeyed her father. That's the big instance people cite, and that was framed as an awakening for her out of her fantasy worldview. One of Sansa's most consistent personality traits in the books, and the one that seems to be set up as the big thing she has to deal with going forward, is her tendency to try to make the best of whatever harmful situation she's in. That's pretty much the opposite of a character whose consuming ambition will put her into conflict with her family if she were reunited with them. Quote Except that GRRM is aware that people don't work their shit out, that human nature will out, and ASOIAF, with its many bitter, unresolved inter-family conflicts, reflects that truth. I don't know about "narrative planning," but I do know that much of great literature rests on bitter, intractable family conflict. ASOIAF, although I don't consider it great literature, has that in common with great literature; it isn't an afterschool special or a Lifetime movie. Characters are not necessarily destined for a "better understanding of each other." They don't hold hands and learn to work out their issues. Their issues drive them to horrible, tragic impasses. I didn't say they were destined to resolve them, but that is one of the standard dramatic possibilities. Some characters who started AGOT with great relationships (e.g., Jaime and Tyrion's brotherly dynamic) saw those relationships destroyed; others, e.g., Jon and Arya, probably will see those relationships reaffirmed. Sansa and Arya's inability as children to get along may mean they'll never get along, or it may serve as deep issues for them to work out when they meet again, having changed and learned a lot in the interim. Sansa was also distant from Jon as a child, but the whole Alayne Stone guise seems like it's meant to give her more of a sense of how he lived, a rather literal walking a mile in somebody else's shoes. Quote We do know that she's proud of her claim, and that at one time, anyway, she allowed her ambition to trump her love for her family with disastrous results. She didn't think that disobeying her father would have negative consequences for him. There's a huge ways between what happened in AGOT and fighting some kind of civil war for power that the character has never shown any desire for. Edited January 4, 2017 by SeanC 1 Link to comment
Eyes High January 4, 2017 Share January 4, 2017 (edited) 28 minutes ago, SeanC said: She misunderstood the situation in AGOT and disobeyed her father. That's the big instance people cite, and that was framed as an awakening for her out of her fantasy worldview. Characterizing Sansa as someone unwilling to go against the grain or "rock the boat" when doing so will accomplish her aims is at odds with the books. Those aims do not always serve political ambition, as they did in AGOT, but they do set the stage for someone unwilling to accept the status quo and taking steps to change it. Sansa's pride in her status as the heir to Winterfell, not to mention her enjoyment in building a snow Winterfell, likely point to a Sansa who would not take it well when disinherited, particularly when warming to a plan that will culminate in heading north at the head of an army to reclaim Winterfell. The show in my opinion points to this as well, by emphasizing Sansa's power-hungry, ambitious nature, her need to be in charge and her dislike of kowtowing to anyone but especially Jon. It seems likely that these elements of TV Sansa will come to bear when (not if, in my opinion) Sansa goes north again. Quote One of Sansa's most consistent personality traits in the books, and the one that seems to be set up as the big thing she has to deal with going forward, is her tendency to try to make the best of whatever harmful situation she's in. She's also a character who will take steps to change her situation if she considers it unbearable, even at great personal risk as with the Dontos meetings, and who's not above using maneuvring and deceit to get what she wants. I don't think Book Sansa is as chastened post-Ned as you seem to think; if she were, she would never have met with Dontos, much less continued meeting with him. Quote I didn't say they were destined to resolve them, but that is one of the standard dramatic possibilities. You've been implying that Sansa must resolve her issues with Arya and resolve all conflicts with her family as they arise because resolving personal conflict is part of narrative planning. That is incorrect in my opinion. Sansa may never resolve her family issues, with Arya or with the other Starks if she starts clashing with them. It's spelled out pretty clearly that Outline Sansa did not. Why should ASOIAF Sansa? There are many ASOIAF characters who died without working out their family issues (and in many cases they died because of those family issues). Quote Sansa was also distant from Jon as a child, but the whole Alayne Stone guise seems like it's meant to give her more of a sense of how he lived, a rather literal walking a mile in somebody else's shoes. That's a popular fan theory, but I doubt it. Sansa thought that it would be "so sweet" to see Jon again, true. However, given that the next time they meet Sansa will have likely learned that she's been disinherited in favour of Jon, that's likely more of an irony alert than anything else. Quote She didn't think that disobeying her father would have negative consequences for him. There's a huge ways between what happened in AGOT and fighting some kind of civil war for power that the character has never shown any desire for. As I said, you overestimate Sansa. She thinks that Arya, her dead sister (as far as she knows), had been "entirely unsatisfactory as sisters went." She's slowly poisoning her cousin, whom she barely tolerates, and she doesn't seem too fussed about it (although she hasn't realized that it will kill him eventually). Nor has she acknowledged any wrongdoing when it comes to going against Ned's orders; the closest she comes is thinking that it had been a mistake to trust Joffrey and Cersei. Her mentor is an amoral schemer who's constantly praising her and telling her how clever she is (she isn't), how the world will be hers (it won't), and promising her Winterfell (which she's already lost thanks to Robb). I don't think she might lose as much sleep over going against her family as you might think, particularly if it will serve her own ambition and particularly if she learns that something she believed would be hers has been stripped from her. Edited January 4, 2017 by Eyes High Link to comment
SeanC January 4, 2017 Share January 4, 2017 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Eyes High said: Characterizing Sansa as someone unwilling to go against the grain or "rock the boat" when doing so will accomplish her aims is at odds with the books. Those aims do not always serve political ambition, as they did in AGOT, but they do set the stage for someone unwilling to accept the status quo and taking steps to change it. Sansa's pride in her status as the heir to Winterfell, not to mention her enjoyment in building a snow Winterfell, likely point to a Sansa who would not take it well when disinherited, particularly when warming to a plan that will culminate in heading north at the head of an army to reclaim Winterfell. The show in my opinion points to this as well, by emphasizing Sansa's power-hungry, ambitious nature, her need to be in charge and her dislike of kowtowing to anyone but especially Jon. It seems likely that these elements of TV Sansa will come to bear when (not if, in my opinion) Sansa goes north again. Book!Sansa is going along with Littlefinger's plan for the same reason she's gone along with the other things he's told her to do -- because she doesn't feel she has any other choice in the matter. And I was actually quite interested, prior to the release of her TWOW excerpt, to see how she'd react to Baelish's plan, which, as presented at the end of AFFC, is clearly meant by him to play to her former ideas about a wonderful life. But there's no sign at all that she's "warming" to this plan; no excitement about ruling Winterfell, or really thinking much about Winterfell at all, she's reluctant in dealing with Harry the Heir, etc. The route you're suggesting, where Sansa becomes singlemindedly ambitious, is a route the character certainly could have gone, but she hasn't so far, and because GRRM doesn't have characters' motivations do hairpin turns like the show does, I think that if that's where this was going we'd have seen some sign of it by now. Sansa has her own established personality, desires, sets of issues and character flaws to deal with. Quote She's also a character who will take steps to change her situation if she considers it unbearable, even at great personal risk as with the Dontos meetings, and who's not above using maneuvring and deceit to get what she wants. I don't think Book Sansa is as chastened post-Ned as you seem to think; if she were, she would never have met with Dontos, much less continued meeting with him. "Unbearable" in that case being held as a hostage and abused all the time. What you're suggesting is that Sansa is so querulous and ambitious that, in a Stark court ruled by one of her brothers, she'd inevitably try to mount a coup. I think that's absurd, based on what we've seen of her. Sansa's main desires since AGOT have been to be loved and to see her family again, not power. Even when she escapes from KL in ASOS and thinks she's "going home", her thoughts about Winterfell really aren't any more complicated than just going there, even though it's a burned out hulk roamed by enemies -- and this isn't some grandiose vision of restoring the Stark rulership with herself on top, it's just her sentimental desire to go home, to the last place she was safe and happy. Quote You've been implying that Sansa must resolve her issues with Arya and resolve all conflicts with her family as they arise because resolving personal conflict is part of narrative planning. No, I stated that that's one of the basic types of narrative (if the wording was unclear, my mistake). Maybe they won't resolve things, but two characters who don't understand each other coming to a better understanding is as standard a narrative as two characters who get along famously coming to blows over the course of the narrative. Quote She thinks that Arya, her dead sister (as far as she knows), had been "entirely unsatisfactory as sisters went." She's slowly poisoning her cousin, whom she barely tolerates, and she doesn't seem too fussed about it (although she hasn't realized that it will kill him eventually). Nor has she acknowledged any wrongdoing when it comes to going against Ned's orders; the closest she comes is thinking that it had been a mistake to trust Joffrey and Cersei. I don't think she might lose as much sleep over going against her family as you might think, particularly if it will serve her own ambition. She also has nostalgic recollections of playing with Arya and imagines one of her children looking like her; but I'm not really sure what that has to do with discussions of her ambition or lack thereof. The stuff with Robert is a good example of her trying to block out unpleasantness under Baelish's pressure and not realizing what his real plan is, which, as I've said, is probably the big character flaw she's going to have to deal with. But that flaw actually goes to the core of why I think the characterization of her as ambitious and somehow intrinsically dangerous to a Stark court is wrong. Sansa, throughout the books, is pretty much the opposite of the ambitious characters in the series; she doesn't nurse grievances and ambitions. She tries, post-AGOT, to make whatever place she's currently inhabiting as comfortable as possible and tamp down whatever emotions, etc. prevent her from doing this. I don't think she has the kind of ambition you're imputing to her. Indeed, ASOIAF offers up any number of characters who do have that sort of ambition -- Dany would be an obvious one, also Asha, Cersei (of course), Victarion, non-POV characters like Stannis and Renly, and (perhaps most relevant to Sansa's story) Littlefinger. We've got innumerable examples of what that kind of personality type looks like, and it doesn't look much at all like Sansa. Edited January 4, 2017 by SeanC 2 Link to comment
FemmyV January 4, 2017 Share January 4, 2017 Quote and being queen was part of her romantic fantasy, but on becoming acquainted with the realities of power, her lack of interest in it has been quite consistent. She doesn't want anything to do with the game of thrones, and while she's proud of her Stark heritage, she doesn't think about ruling Winterfell or whatever. Oh, I disagree. Maybe not on a 100% conscious level, but when Sansa saw those Vale soldiers coming over the hill, she finally got a taste of what it was like to be the one with the power, and liked it. Link to comment
SeanC January 4, 2017 Share January 4, 2017 33 minutes ago, FemmyV said: Oh, I disagree. Maybe not on a 100% conscious level, but when Sansa saw those Vale soldiers coming over the hill, she finally got a taste of what it was like to be the one with the power, and liked it. You're talking about the show, which, yes, Show!Sansa is power-hungry and likes the idea of being in charge. I was talking about Book!Sansa, who is pretty much the exact opposite of this. It's one of the most notable differences between the characters (see also: Show!Sansa's love of revenge). Link to comment
Wouter January 4, 2017 Share January 4, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, Eyes High said: Nothing we have seen suggests that Sansa would be satisfied with a "supporting role at court" subordinate to one or more of her siblings. The show seems to be doubling down on this as well with Sansa chafing at being subordinate to Jon and fighting with Arya over politics in Season 7, according to Awayforthelads' spoilers. Sansa could never be trusted to serve her family in a subordinate role without ever letting ambition eventually get the better of her. GRRM will have to kill her off or ship her off. Besides, what sort of "supporting role at court" for Sansa do you envisage? Sansa and Tyrion staring at each other awkwardly across the table at Small Council meetings? Not going to happen. Interestingly, one of the things that look different (at this moment, at least) between show and book is that show-Sansa is actually looking quite good to become lady of Winterfell. Considering: -that the show killed off Rickon (whom I previously had thought would be the eventual Stark heir to hold Winterfell, though I guess it will be a "shaggy dog story" after all) -that the show already killed off Stannis and the Boltons -that the show omitted Robb disinheriting her -that the show has put Sansa in Winterfell -that, according to the leaks of lads, the show will have Jon set Sansa in charge in his absence and then go on to unite his cause and possibly, eventually his royal claims to Dany (the latter is a long expected development in the books, too, IMO) It looks like there is a clear path, in the show, for Sansa to take Winterfell. Rickon is dead, Jon will likely be revealed as a Targaryen and marry Dany (moving his claim from Winterfell to the Iron Throne), Arya is younger and Bran may never be able to have children. So, it may come down to whether or not Bran desires to rule Winterfell (and have Sansa as his heir in that case, unless he can have children after all) or whether he will step back to do his treenet(tm) thing. So that's already one other possibility that you didn't contemplate. Edited January 4, 2017 by Wouter 1 Link to comment
FemmyV January 4, 2017 Share January 4, 2017 52 minutes ago, SeanC said: I was talking about Book!Sansa, who is pretty much the exact opposite of this. It's one of the most notable differences between the characters (see also: Show!Sansa's love of revenge). Let's see what happens when the books catch up. 1 Link to comment
Wouter January 4, 2017 Share January 4, 2017 Just now, FemmyV said: Let's see what happens when the books catch up. You think they will ever catch up? If we end up getting TWOW - some time - we may count ourselves lucky already. And I doubt Dany will already be in Westeros at the end of that book. 1 Link to comment
Eyes High January 4, 2017 Share January 4, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, SeanC said: You're talking about the show, which, yes, Show!Sansa is power-hungry and likes the idea of being in charge. I was talking about Book!Sansa, who is pretty much the exact opposite of this. It's one of the most notable differences between the characters (see also: Show!Sansa's love of revenge). It's not unreasonable to suppose that TV Sansa is presaging developments in Book Sansa's character. We can infer from TV Tyrion's relative stability as of the end of Season 6 that Book Tyrion is going to pull himself out of his depressive hate spiral, even if he hasn't yet and even if he seems to be going in the opposite direction in the books (getting more unstable, more violent, and more depressed). Similarly, it's not unreasonable to suppose that Book Sansa will eventually reflect TV Sansa's power hunger and ambition, even if she hasn't gotten there just yet and even if only the seeds are there in the books (LF whispering in her ear about her birthright, Sansa's actions in AGOT, etc.). TV Sansa is getting there more quickly than Book Sansa is all. Quote Let's see what happens when the books catch up. Or what FemmyV said. Quote Interestingly, one of the things that look different (at this moment, at least) between show and book is that show-Sansa is actually looking quite good to become lady of Winterfell. -that, according to the leaks of lads, the show will have Jon set Sansa in charge in his absence and then go on to unite his cause and claims to Dany (the latter is a long expected development in the books, too, IMO) That's a good indication that she's not going to end up with Winterfell, in my opinion. It's too early. Quote -that the show omitted Robb disinheriting her The show got to the same end by having Jon elected KITN over Sansa and by divorcing the KITN title from the Lord/Lady of Winterfell title. Same end--Sansa passed over, stripped of what she believes is rightfully hers in favour of a bastard, and none too happy about it--different route. Quote It looks like there is a clear path, in the show, for Sansa to take Winterfell. Except that GRRM planned his ending, including presumably who gets Winterfell, without reference to Sansa (since he killed her off in the outline), and he plans on sticking to that ending, as he has said. That means that Sansa will never end up with Winterfell, even if she holds it for a time in the show and/or the books. There's a theory that Tyrion may still get it, though, which would be a trip given that Robb disinherited Sansa in the books precisely to prevent that outcome, but it seems certain that Sansa will not. Edited January 4, 2017 by Eyes High Link to comment
polyhymnia January 4, 2017 Share January 4, 2017 On 12/21/2016 at 4:06 PM, Aziraphale said: We need new spoilers. Every time there are none for a while, the same discussion about Sansa starts. I always get all excited when I see like ten new posts overnight, just to see that this thread has been caught in another time loop. Seriously. 11 Link to comment
whateverdgaf January 4, 2017 Share January 4, 2017 Is there any spoilers about Melisandre next season? I'm just wondering about what her reaction to Dany might be. Plus she is currently wondering around on her own without protection and with three people; two of whom are pretty lethal, would be quite happy to see he dead. None of the spoilers seemed to have mentioned her and I'm curious as to what role she could fullfill. Link to comment
Wouter January 4, 2017 Share January 4, 2017 18 minutes ago, Eyes High said: [1]That's a good indication that she's not going to end up with Winterfell, in my opinion. It's too early. [2]The show got to the same end by having Jon elected KITN over Sansa and by divorcing the KITN title from the Lord/Lady of Winterfell title. Same end--Sansa passed over, stripped of what she believes is rightfully hers in favour of a bastard, and none too happy about it--different route. [3]Except that GRRM planned his ending, including presumably who gets Winterfell, without reference to Sansa (since he killed her off in the outline), and he plans on sticking to that ending, as he has said. That means that Sansa will never end up with Winterfell, even if she holds it for a time in the show and/or the books. There's a theory that Tyrion may still get it, though, which would be a trip given that Robb disinherited Sansa in the books precisely to prevent that outcome, but it seems certain that Sansa will not. [1] Would be right on time, with only S8 to go and with the Dany/Jon union (not too mention, the fight against the Others) yet to be concluded. [2] There will probably be no KITN once Jon (a Stark and a Targaryen) unites his claim with his aunts, and they then likely save Westeros (including the north) together. Jon's claim as a Stark, through Lyanna, would be inferior to claims of Ned's children, and Jon being Jon is unlikely to just bully his way in. Divorcing the KITN title from lord/lady of Winterfell is nice in this regard: Jon drops the KITN title to be king of Westeros (jointly ruling with Queen Daenerys - assuming both survive the war with the others and all the rest Martin and/or D&D would throw their way) and takes the throne in KL (or a new capital, if need be). Leaving Winterfell for one of Ned's children. [3]There is nothing certain, except that at that time GRRM was planning for the big five to be present in the entire saga. Much of the outline is no longer valid. Since it's indeed like the 10th time the outline (and Sansa's general role) getting discussed, I suppose I'll leave it at this. 8 minutes ago, whateverdgaf said: Is there any spoilers about Melisandre next season? I'm just wondering about what her reaction to Dany might be. Plus she is currently wondering around on her own without protection and with three people; two of whom are pretty lethal, would be quite happy to see he dead. None of the spoilers seemed to have mentioned her and I'm curious as to what role she could fullfill. The actress has given birth some months ago, so it's possible she was barely available for filming. Link to comment
Eyes High January 4, 2017 Share January 4, 2017 (edited) 29 minutes ago, whateverdgaf said: Is there any spoilers about Melisandre next season? I'm just wondering about what her reaction to Dany might be. Plus she is currently wondering around on her own without protection and with three people; two of whom are pretty lethal, would be quite happy to see he dead. None of the spoilers seemed to have mentioned her and I'm curious as to what role she could fullfill. In addition to Wouter's comment about Carice spending time with her new baby, Awayforthelads mentioned that Melisandre would show up at some point to say something portentous implying that Jon and Dany's meeting was significant (or words to that effect). There was a scene filmed in the Basque region at the exterior Dragonstone set (San Juan de Gaztelugatxe, or whatever it is) where there was someone that WOTW claimed was supposed to be Melisandre, but whether it was the body double or Carice herself (I think Carice was supposed to be at a comicon somewhere that weekend), I don't know. TLDR: Don't expect much Melisandre this season. 20 minutes ago, Wouter said: [1] Would be right on time, with only S8 to go and with the Dany/Jon union (not too mention, the fight against the Others) yet to be concluded. [2] There will probably be no KITN once Jon (a Stark and a Targaryen) unites his claim with his aunts, and they then likely save Westeros (including the north) together. Jon's claim as a Stark, through Lyanna, would be inferior to claims of Ned's children, and Jon being Jon is unlikely to just bully his way in. Divorcing the KITN title from lord/lady of Winterfell is nice in this regard: Jon drops the KITN title to be king of Westeros (jointly ruling with Queen Daenerys - assuming both survive the war with the others and all the rest Martin and/or D&D would throw their way) and takes the throne in KL (or a new capital, if need be). Leaving Winterfell for one of Ned's children. [3]There is nothing certain, except that at that time GRRM was planning for the big five to be present in the entire saga. Much of the outline is no longer valid. 1. It's too early. Everyone else is in flux. If Sansa has a position as Lady of Winterfell now, 13-15 episodes out from the end of the story, she won't have it by the end. 2/3. Whatever the endgame, Sansa won't be a part of it. GRRM is still going to adhere to the ending he planned in 1991, the ending he's "always known": who lives, who dies, who's on the Iron Throne, etc. (as he has said). As of 1993, he was planning on killing off Sansa and, by extension, we can assume he was planning on someone else ending up with Winterfell, just as he was planning on someone else ending up on the Iron Throne. "Much of the outline" is no longer valid, but the ending still is, and the ending leaves Sansa out. It's too bad, because a lot of people have convinced themselves that Sansa has a happy ending in store. It's still possible (see my musings about Sansa running off with Sandor), but unlikely in my opinion. The outline dooms her, and there's really no way around it. I agree that this is getting off-topic and we should get to Season 7 spoilers. On that note, some dude showed up on /Freefolk purporting to see scripts and note cards revealing Season 7 plot points but almost immediately disappeared and deleted his account. So there's that, I guess. Edited January 4, 2017 by Eyes High Link to comment
SeanC January 4, 2017 Share January 4, 2017 There's a bit more than a month left in production, but I'm not sure how much more we're going to get in good spoiler material from it, since it's mostly Northern Ireland stuff, and the Icelandic filming, assuming it happens, is about stuff we've by this point got a solid picture of. Then the wait begins for promotional materials. Link to comment
Eyes High January 4, 2017 Share January 4, 2017 10 minutes ago, SeanC said: There's a bit more than a month left in production, but I'm not sure how much more we're going to get in good spoiler material from it, since it's mostly Northern Ireland stuff, and the Icelandic filming, assuming it happens, is about stuff we've by this point got a solid picture of. Then the wait begins for promotional materials. Given that everything's been roughly bumped by two months, I wonder if the first trailer will be bumped by about two months as well. They can start with the teaser stuff like the House Targaryen/Stark/Lannister posters plus voiceovers any day, though, one would think. Link to comment
SeanC January 4, 2017 Share January 4, 2017 9 minutes ago, Eyes High said: Given that everything's been roughly bumped by two months, I wonder if the first trailer will be bumped by about two months as well. They can start with the teaser stuff like the House Targaryen/Stark/Lannister posters plus voiceovers any day, though, one would think. I expect this season's promotional materials will flog the hell out of Jon and Dany meeting for the first time (even if they don't show the meeting itself, there'll be teasers of Jon saying he needs to go see her, or whatever). Link to comment
Happy Harpy January 5, 2017 Share January 5, 2017 (edited) 9 hours ago, SeanC said: They aren't, though. Sansa was raped for weeks/months by Ramsay, meaning that, were she still married to Tyrion in the show, there would be no possibility of annulling the marriage, because there's no means to demonstrate it wasn't consummated. It isn't about consummation at this point because Sansa/Ramsay isn't the first marriage. Unless the first marriage is legally invalidated (if non-consummation doesn't automatically mean dissolution of course) the second marriage isn't legit in any way or shape; IIRC order of precedence is quite an universal law when it comes to such matters. First married, first legally served, if I can say so. Edited to add: I need a spoiler ensuring me that Gendry doesn't die at the end of the season. It's pretty much all I truly really care about right now, considering the unfortunate track record or promised track record of characters back after a hiatus of several seasons. Edited January 5, 2017 by Happy Harpy 1 Link to comment
SeanC January 5, 2017 Share January 5, 2017 3 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said: It isn't about consummation at this point because Sansa/Ramsay isn't the first marriage. Unless the first marriage is legally invalidated (if non-consummation doesn't automatically mean dissolution of course) the second marriage isn't legit in any way or shape; IIRC order of precedence is quite an universal law when it comes to such matters. First married, first legally served, if I can say so. No, my point is that they aren't back to the situation in the books. In the books, Sansa's still a virgin and can annul the marriage, theoretically; in the show, there's no means of doing that, if she was still legally married. Though the show, if Lads is right, also invented a way for Rhaegar to annul his marriage despite having two kids, so maybe that doesn't matter either. Link to comment
Happy Harpy January 5, 2017 Share January 5, 2017 (edited) 7 minutes ago, SeanC said: No, my point is that they aren't back to the situation in the books. In the books, Sansa's still a virgin and can annul the marriage, theoretically; in the show, there's no means of doing that, if she was still legally married. Though the show, if Lads is right, also invented a way for Rhaegar to annul his marriage despite having two kids, so maybe that doesn't matter either. Maybe we aren't talking about the same marriage? If it's Sansa/Ramsay, no annulment would be needed because the marriage wasn't valid in the first place. If it's Sansa/Tyrion, it could still be annuled because her sham marriage to Ramsay is documented, and the loss of her virginity would be truthfully blamed to her rape at his hands (and considering that marital rape doesn't exist by Westerosi standards I would love if her ordeal was recognized as what is was). But yep, maybe nothing will matter but Plot and Convenient to Plot :) Edited January 5, 2017 by Happy Harpy Link to comment
Eyes High January 5, 2017 Share January 5, 2017 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said: Edited to add: I need a spoiler ensuring me that Gendry doesn't die at the end of the season. I think Awayforthelads said that only Thoros dies during the wight hunt (or implied it, at any rate). You'd think the wight hunt would be a good opportunity to get rid of Beric as well, since I can't imagine what purpose he serves at this point (not to mention that he's wayyyyy past his book expiry date), but apparently not. I was also under the impression that Gendry wasn't involved in the big wight battle per se, like he's there with Team Wight Hunt but he leaves or something to go back to Eastwatch with Davos before the shit really hits the fan. On the other hand, Davos and Sandor are present at the 7x07 powwow post-wight hunt and Gendry is not, so I don't know what happens to him after the wight hunt; his absence doesn't necessarily mean anything bad, though, he could just have chosen to remain north. My problem with the annulment thing is that when the show explains the annulment procedure in Season 7 to convince the audience that not only was there an annulment but also Rhaegar's marriage was validly annulled because the proper procedure was followed, the audience will realize that that procedure was not followed for Sansa and Tyrion, but that all the characters seemed to act as if it had been. No character has questioned the validity of Ramsay and Sansa's marriage, despite knowing that Sansa and Tyrion's marriage wasn't properly annulled. As SeanC said, the show could draw a distinction between annulling marriages with children and voiding unconsummated marriages with a line of dialogue to explain the discrepancy, but I doubt the writers will bother. In any event, it really only matters if Sansa survives and wishes to remarry. Edited January 5, 2017 by Eyes High 1 Link to comment
SeanC January 5, 2017 Share January 5, 2017 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said: Maybe we aren't talking about the same marriage? If it's Sansa/Ramsay, no annulment would be needed because the marriage wasn't valid in the first place. If it's Sansa/Tyrion, it could still be annuled because her sham marriage to Ramsay is documented, and the loss of her virginity would be truthfully blamed to her rape at his hands (and considering that marital rape doesn't exist by Westerosi standards I would love if her ordeal was recognized as what is was). But yep, maybe nothing will matter but Plot and Convenient to Plot :) But there's no evidence she was a virgin during her marriage now, other than her word. 17 minutes ago, Eyes High said: I think Awayforthelads said that only Thoros dies during the wight hunt (or implied it, at any rate). You'd think the wight hunt would be a good opportunity to get rid of Beric as well, since I can't imagine what purpose he serves at this point (not to mention that he's wayyyyy past his book expiry date), but apparently not. I was also under the impression that Gendry wasn't involved in the big wight battle per se, like he's there with Team Wight Hunt but he leaves or something to go back to Eastwatch with Davos before the shit really hits the fan. On the other hand, Davos and Sandor are present at the 7x07 powwow post-wight hunt and Gendry is not, so I don't know what happens to him after the wight hunt; his absence doesn't necessarily mean anything bad, though, he could just have chosen to remain north. I thought they said Beric died. There was some comment that Gendry is sent away for some reason before the team gets trapped, as I recall, but no explanation why or what happens to him. Lads said he was in two episodes, which would be 5 & 6. I speculated that maybe Gendry is meant to arrive in Winterfell at the start of Season 8 with news the Wall falls or something. But then, I thought Brienne's not having returned at the end of Season 6 had some significance, but apparently not. Edited January 5, 2017 by SeanC 1 Link to comment
Happy Harpy January 5, 2017 Share January 5, 2017 2 minutes ago, Eyes High said: I think Awayforthelads said that only Thoros dies during the wight hunt (or implied it, at any rate). You'd think the wight hunt would be a good opportunity to get rid of Beric as well, since I can't imagine what purpose he serves at this point (not to mention that he's wayyyyy past his book expiry date), but apparently not. I was also under the impression that Gendry wasn't involved in the big wight battle per se, like he's there with Team Wight Hunt but he leaves or something to go back to Eastwatch with Davos before the shit really hits the fan. On the other hand, Davos and Sandor are present at the 7x07 powwow post-wight hunt and Gendry is not, so I don't know what happens to him after the wight hunt; his absence doesn't necessarily mean anything bad, though, he could just have chosen to remain north. I think one of the leakers said he killed a polar bear with his warhammer during the big fight, which I'm very hyped-pumped about. But I think that the Wall falling will mean some casualties that we love so I'm very worried about anybody in the vicinity when it happens namely Davos, Gendry and Edd. I'm taking comfort in the fact that Gendry and Arya won't meet in S7 and GRR Martin said they'll meet again. Link to comment
Happy Harpy January 5, 2017 Share January 5, 2017 2 minutes ago, SeanC said: But there's no evidence she was a virgin during her marriage now, other than her word. True! But I think that no one would challenge the Hand of the Queen's word and the sister to the King in the North's word? (Just like, I guess, the Boltons didn't expect anyone to challenge the validity of Sansa's marriage to Ramsay while they held power.) 5 minutes ago, SeanC said: There was some comment that Gendry is sent away for some reason before the team gets trapped, as I recall, but no explanation why or what happens to him. Lads said he was in two episodes, which would be 5 & 6. I speculated that maybe Gendry is meant to arrive in Winterfell at the start of Season 7 with news the Wall falls or something. But then, I thought Brienne's not having returned at the end of Season 6 had some significance, but apparently not. I would have loved a Brienne/Melisandre/BwB/Arya/Hound showdown in the Riverlands. I mean, they were all there! Gendry thrown into the mix would have been the cherry on the cake. Link to comment
Eyes High January 5, 2017 Share January 5, 2017 (edited) 46 minutes ago, SeanC said: But there's no evidence she was a virgin during her marriage now, other than her word. Wouldn't her word be enough? Unconsummated marriages are annulled all the time nowadays on the basis of one's word. More to the point, though, it sounded from the way GRRM described it that Book Sansa could request annulment on the grounds of non-consummation simply by writing to the High Septon, no virginity test required. The issue of whether Sansa's word could be trusted would only arise if anyone disputed her account, but it was common knowledge at court that Sansa and Tyrion's marriage was unconsummated. Even if Tyrion decided to lie about the marriage having been consummated to thwart Sansa's attempt to obtain an annulment--assuming Tyrion would do such a thing--who would believe him? Edited January 5, 2017 by Eyes High Link to comment
Wouter January 5, 2017 Share January 5, 2017 (edited) In the books and from an answer of Martin on a mail, I got the impression that Sansa (and/or Tyrion) needs to personally go to the High Septon to ask annulment. And in turn, that the High Septon - whether the High Sparrow or a "trained seal who barks on command" - would agree or decline based on the political objectives at that time. His own objectives, if the High Sparrow, or the objectives of his political patron in the other case. For Sansa, this would be virtually impossible because not only is the High Sparrows' response to her uncertain (she is rumoured to a sorcerous heathen of the north, following their queer old gods, and also supposed to be part of regicide), as long as Cersei still wields some power there it can never be safe. Tyrion would need an army to get in safely, but then he is pretty likely to eventually do just that. I'm looking forward to the meeting(s) of Jon and Tyrion in S7, I've been curious for a long time (in the books) how their first meeting after Tyrion's return would go. May be an interesting conversation, allthough with D&D it could be golden or it could be mediocre, depending on form. Edited January 5, 2017 by Wouter Link to comment
FemmyV January 6, 2017 Share January 6, 2017 On 1/4/2017 at 4:40 PM, whateverdgaf said: Is there any spoilers about Melisandre next season? I'm just wondering about what her reaction to Dany might be. A Reddit poster claiming to have spoilers said Mel asks Dany to let one of the dragons fry her up, as that's supposed to be a pure death or some such. On 1/4/2017 at 4:49 PM, Wouter said: [2] There will probably be no KITN once Jon (a Stark and a Targaryen) unites his claim with his aunts, and they then likely save Westeros (including the north) together. Jon's claim as a Stark, through Lyanna, would be inferior to claims of Ned's children, and Jon being Jon is unlikely to just bully his way in. Did I hallucinate a TV scene where Sam informed Jon about seeing Bran, at the Nightfort? If not, Jon knows there is at least a chance Brandon is alive and well. I can see why he wouldn't want Littlefinger to have that info, kind of, but why not share that with Sansa anyway? Link to comment
anamika January 6, 2017 Share January 6, 2017 I think Emilia has done the maximum filming this year. This will be her season - I am foreseeing that Dany will have the most screen time. Jon will be close since he has the wight hunt action episode that will give him most of one episode. I think NCW has also done a lot of filming and he has a solid storyline - a chance for Jaime to shine after season 3. 1 Link to comment
SimoneS January 6, 2017 Share January 6, 2017 (edited) Just know that I am going to love season seven. I have been waiting for years for Daenerys to finally make it to Westeros. I cannot wait for her to "cry havoc! and let slip the dogs of war" It will be hella fun. A whole lot of people have it coming to them. Edited January 6, 2017 by SimoneS Link to comment
YaddaYadda January 6, 2017 Share January 6, 2017 12 hours ago, FemmyV said: Did I hallucinate a TV scene where Sam informed Jon about seeing Bran, at the Nightfort? If not, Jon knows there is at least a chance Brandon is alive and well. I can see why he wouldn't want Littlefinger to have that info, kind of, but why not share that with Sansa anyway? No, you didn't. There was a scene, and it was before they went to Craster's Keep to root out the mutineers. I'm looking forward to season 7, mainly because I've been looking forward to a Jon/Dany, Jon/Dragons meeting for a really long time. And I'm just so looking forward to the Tyrion and Jon scenes. Not gonna lie, I kinda got emotional looking at those BTS of them shaking hands. Actually, I'm just looking forward to anything Jon, so yeah... 6 Link to comment
Eyes High January 6, 2017 Share January 6, 2017 14 hours ago, FemmyV said: Did I hallucinate a TV scene where Sam informed Jon about seeing Bran, at the Nightfort? If not, Jon knows there is at least a chance Brandon is alive and well. I can see why he wouldn't want Littlefinger to have that info, kind of, but why not share that with Sansa anyway? I think it's implied that Jon already communicated that to Sansa, since after their mostly off-screen chat when they reunited, Sansa said something about Bran and Arya "wherever they are." However, Sansa already knows from Theon that Bran may be alive. As for the KITN issue, Jon and Sansa knew Bran was alive when he was elected KITN. I'm not sure that if Jon had tried to demur on the basis of Bran's claim that it would have changed anything. The Northerners supported Jon as leader not just because of Ned's blood, but also because of what they believed he had done for them (avenging the Red Wedding on the battlefield and taking down the Boltons). Otherwise they would have supported Sansa as QITN. The latest in Leakerpocalypse at /Freefolk (take with a whole lotta salt, as usual): user Jumer9873 who claims to work at Boojum, a Mexican restaurant in Belfast, has a bit of info about actors' comings and goings at the restaurant during the season. 1. Most of the Stark troupe and a while ago came to Boojum when they were showing a young actress around (ginger-haired, very pale). She said she was playing the daughter of a Karstark. 2. Emilia Clarke was at Boojum last night with some blonde dude who looked like her (not NCW or Alfie Allen, Jumer9873 knows what they look like). 3. The last time they saw Aiden Gillen was at the end of September. The last time they saw any of the cast before seeing Emilia Clarke last night was in December, when they saw Iain Glen, Kit, and Kristofer Hivju. 4. Gwendoline Christie and Daniel Portman came in with a brunette. Gwendoline Christie was saying something to the effect of she didn't understand "why they killed some girl." 5. Maisie and Sophie came in a few months ago and they were both crying. Link to comment
BlackberryJam January 6, 2017 Share January 6, 2017 Is anyone currently leaking sane and credible? Link to comment
Aziraphale January 6, 2017 Share January 6, 2017 (edited) I'm mostly just excited for everyone to see the dragons. I want everyone to react to them. They should resurrect Tywin, Ramsey and Joffrey just so they can react to them (and then prompty get rosted). The thought fills me with childish glee. I'm also super curious about Cersei's reaction to Dany in general, because she is basically the only threat to her at this point. Quote Is anyone currently leaking sane and credible? Except for the first batch of leaks, I don't think so? But I've lost count and am probably already mixing up people in my head. I just know that every new leak sounds more or less plausible except for one or two things that reek of a personal agenda, making me question everything they say. Edited January 6, 2017 by Aziraphale Link to comment
Eyes High January 6, 2017 Share January 6, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, BlackberryJam said: Is anyone currently leaking sane and credible? The last time we got leaks with outside confirmation was from Awayforthelads a few months ago. A lot of Awayforthelads' information has been independently confirmed, particularly information regarding exterior scenes shot in Spain and information about which characters are filming together, but Awayforthelads amid all the other credible information provided gave a few spoilers some fans find highly questionable: 1. Rhaegar had his marriage to Elia annulled and married Lyanna, a fact discovered by Gilly when rifling through annulment records at the Citadel, meaning that Jon is the legitimate heir. Jon's birth name is "Aegon." 2. The Winterfell Season 7 plot culminates in Sansa seeing through LF's attempts to cause conflict between Arya and herself--with an assist from Bran--and orders his execution, which Arya carries out. Some fans think that there has to be more to it than that. 3. Jon and Dany make a pact with Cersei where Cersei agrees to provide her troops to fight the WWs, and they apparently trust Cersei to hold to this pact. Cersei later confides to Jaime that she has no intention of providing her army. 4. Jon and Dany are increasingly admiring of one another throughout Season 7, and at the end of Season 7, they have sex on a boat heading north. This is paired with scenes of the NK, riding a wightified Viserion, busting through the Wall. 5. Cersei is pregnant and miscarries in the last episode, waking up in a bed of blood. Most of these scenes would be filmed in interiors, and any sex scene would likely be on a secure set, so there's no way of disproving or proving these spoilers until Season 7 actually airs. However, Awayforthelads has provided numerous other spoilers that proved correct. I guess the question is whether it can be assumed that Awayforthelads is as accurate about the interior scenes as he was when it came to the exterior scenes shot in Spain. The other spoiler from Awayforthelads that is raising red flags for some fans is Awayforthelads' claim that there are no major character deaths in Season 7, and that the biggest death is Littlefinger. Edited January 6, 2017 by Eyes High 1 Link to comment
whateverdgaf January 6, 2017 Share January 6, 2017 1 minute ago, Eyes High said: 1. Rhaegar had his marriage to Elia annulled and married Lyanna, a fact discovered by Gilly when rifling through annulment records at the Citadel, meaning that Jon is the legitimate heir. Jon's birth name is "Aegon." I never liked Rhaegar, but if it's true that he named Jon Aegon despite already having a son called that then I will find him even more despicable. 3 Link to comment
YaddaYadda January 6, 2017 Share January 6, 2017 2 minutes ago, whateverdgaf said: I never liked Rhaegar, but if it's true that he named Jon Aegon despite already having a son called that then I will find him even more despicable. I like Rhaegar and I find this despicable. This whole thing about him naming Jon is Aegon is so very absurd and just really mean. And the whole marriage annulment, I don't know Westerosi law, but doesn't that kind of make Aegon and Rhaenys bastards if that happens? And if it doesn't, it still means there could be a war if he wanted Jon to be the heir to the throne. That's another Dance with Dragons waiting to happen with Dorne supporting Elia's children and the North likely throwing behind Lyanna's son. Of course the other option is that he only saw Jon as a means to an end with the whole PtwP, which still makes him a really shitty parent and prince. His inbreeding is showing. 3 Link to comment
Eyes High January 6, 2017 Share January 6, 2017 (edited) 13 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said: I like Rhaegar and I find this despicable. This whole thing about him naming Jon is Aegon is so very absurd and just really mean. And the whole marriage annulment, I don't know Westerosi law, but doesn't that kind of make Aegon and Rhaenys bastards if that happens? Yes. I think it's what Henry VIII did to Catherine of Aragon to marry Anne Boleyn, and, subsequently, what he did to Anne Boleyn to marry Jane Seymour. As a result of the annulments of those marriages, Henry's daughters from those unions were declared illegitimate. #notahistorianbutWolfHallwasawesome The next batch of spoilers, apart from official materials like trailers and the like, will likely come when recapped.com, the nudity spoiler website, starts posting info about Season 7. Their information is always reliable, weirdly enough. Edited January 6, 2017 by Eyes High 2 Link to comment
SimoneS January 6, 2017 Share January 6, 2017 33 minutes ago, Eyes High said: Yes. I think it's what Henry VIII did to Catherine of Aragon to marry Anne Boleyn, and, subsequently, what he did to Anne Boleyn to marry Jane Seymour. As a result of the annulments of those marriages, Henry's daughters from those unions were declared illegitimate. #notahistorianbutWolfHallwasawesome To stop the controversy, the English parliament also passed legislation to that deemed Mary and Elizabeth illegitimate after the annulments were granted. When Henry's only legitimate son turned out to be sickly, in accordance with Henry's wishes the English parliament passed more legislation to legitimized Mary and Elizabeth again. Weird stuff all the way around. 51 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said: I like Rhaegar and I find this despicable. This whole thing about him naming Jon is Aegon is so very absurd and just really mean. And the whole marriage annulment, I don't know Westerosi law, but doesn't that kind of make Aegon and Rhaenys bastards if that happens? And if it doesn't, it still means there could be a war if he wanted Jon to be the heir to the throne. That's another Dance with Dragons waiting to happen with Dorne supporting Elia's children and the North likely throwing behind Lyanna's son. Of course the other option is that he only saw Jon as a means to an end with the whole PtwP, which still makes him a really shitty parent and prince. His inbreeding is showing. While it is traditional in monarchies for the oldest son to be name heir, it would not be the first time that an older son is replaced by a younger son of a favored wife. The name thing is awkward, but maybe Jon's birth is not "Aegon" like I and many others think. We could be wrong. Link to comment
whateverdgaf January 6, 2017 Share January 6, 2017 (edited) 31 minutes ago, SimoneS said: To stop the controversy, the English parliament also passed legislation to that deemed Mary and Elizabeth illegitimate after the annulments were granted. When Henry's only legitimate son turned out to be sickly, in accordance with Henry's wishes the English parliament passed more legislation to legitimized Mary and Elizabeth again. Weird stuff all the way around. They weren't legitimised, they were simply put back into the succession. And Edward was not a sickly child, he was actually mostly healthy when he was a child. 31 minutes ago, SimoneS said: While it is traditional in monarchies for the oldest son to be name heir, it would not be the first time that an older son is replaced by a younger son of a favored wife. The name thing is awkward, but maybe Jon's birth is not "Aegon" like I and many others think. We could be wrong. The name thing isn't awkward, it's cruel. Besides, even if Jon's name wasn't Aegon, Rhaegar would still be angering and humiliating the beloved daughter of a powerful house. It was bad enough naming Lyanna Queen of Love and Beauty when he did, but abandoning Elia and disinheriting both his children was not only cruel, it was insulting. The Martells would have been furious and the court would have been divided. Even if Robert's rebellion had not taken place, there would still be division over who his heir should be, Jon or Aegon. It was a monumentally stupid thing to do. If he had dismissed Elia and his two children in the callous way he appeared to have done, then that is just the icing on the cake. The fact is, Rhaegar was a prince. He had responsibilites towards his family and the country as a whole. He knew that, and still behaved the way he did. Almost every interpretation of his character out there suggests him to be an utterly despicable human being, however charming he may have appeared. Edited January 6, 2017 by whateverdgaf 2 Link to comment
YaddaYadda January 6, 2017 Share January 6, 2017 1 hour ago, SimoneS said: The name thing is awkward, but maybe Jon's birth is not "Aegon" like I and many others think. We could be wrong. I don't think (and I'm hoping) it's not his true name either. I just have this facepalm, wanna bang my head on a wall moment every time I read that his name is "Aegon". Naming him Visenya makes more sense at this point than Aegon. Link to comment
Edith January 6, 2017 Share January 6, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, Eyes High said: The last time we got leaks with outside confirmation was from Awayforthelads a few months ago. A lot of Awayforthelads' information has been independently confirmed, particularly information regarding exterior scenes shot in Spain and information about which characters are filming together, but Awayforthelads amid all the other credible information provided gave a few spoilers some fans find highly questionable: 1. Rhaegar had his marriage to Elia annulled and married Lyanna, a fact discovered by Gilly when rifling through annulment records at the Citadel, meaning that Jon is the legitimate heir. Jon's birth name is "Aegon." 2. The Winterfell Season 7 plot culminates in Sansa seeing through LF's attempts to cause conflict between Arya and herself--with an assist from Bran--and orders his execution, which Arya carries out. Some fans think that there has to be more to it than that. 3. Jon and Dany make a pact with Cersei where Cersei agrees to provide her troops to fight the WWs, and they apparently trust Cersei to hold to this pact. Cersei later confides to Jaime that she has no intention of providing her army. 4. Jon and Dany are increasingly admiring of one another throughout Season 7, and at the end of Season 7, they have sex on a boat heading north. This is paired with scenes of the NK, riding a wightified Viserion, busting through the Wall. 5. Cersei is pregnant and miscarries in the last episode, waking up in a bed of blood. Most of these scenes would be filmed in interiors, and any sex scene would likely be on a secure set, so there's no way of disproving or proving these spoilers until Season 7 actually airs. However, Awayforthelads has provided numerous other spoilers that proved correct. I guess the question is whether it can be assumed that Awayforthelads is as accurate about the interior scenes as he was when it came to the exterior scenes shot in Spain. The other spoiler from Awayforthelads that is raising red flags for some fans is Awayforthelads' claim that there are no major character deaths in Season 7, and that the biggest death is Littlefinger. You're forgetting the Sansa vs Arya clash, which is an interior scene that already got confirmed by WOTW. Before Lads everyone was discussing Jon vs Sansa and she/he came out and said that was not going to happen. So is not only exterior scenes that got confirmed about the leaks. Oh Sam and Jorah too. There was some theory's about it but Lads came and confirmed Edited January 6, 2017 by Edith Link to comment
Meredith Quill January 7, 2017 Share January 7, 2017 Mod Note: Please keep the discussion in here to season 7 of the show. If you want to discuss Book Sansa Vs. Show Sansa, that discussion should be taken to the Television Vs. Book topic. Thank you. 1 Link to comment
Eyes High January 7, 2017 Share January 7, 2017 17 hours ago, Edith said: You're forgetting the Sansa vs Arya clash, which is an interior scene that already got confirmed by WOTW. Before Lads everyone was discussing Jon vs Sansa and she/he came out and said that was not going to happen. So is not only exterior scenes that got confirmed about the leaks. Oh Sam and Jorah too. There was some theory's about it but Lads came and confirmed As far as I can tell, it's the resolution of the plot that fans find hard to swallow, not the idea that Sansa and Arya would be at each others' throats, which, as you say, has already been confirmed by WOTW. Also, it is arguable that there are subtle differences between Sansa vs. Arya as described in the leaks and what was described by WOTW. At any rate, though, the specific plot twists that fans are disputing won't be proved or disproved until Season 7 airs, or at least until we get better spoilers. The trailers usually show glimpses of all episodes in a season, and someone with knowledge of the leaks might be able to corroborate the leaks with those glimpses. Link to comment
OhOkayWhat January 7, 2017 Share January 7, 2017 (edited) About Rhaegar-Lyanna and how it relates to Sansa marriages I do not see how it means the showrunners did put themselves in a corner: in the show narrative, the existence of marriage rules, does not implies it works for everyone, everytime, everywhere. Therefore, I think it will not create any plothole in the next season of the show. An interesting thing that maybe is related to Sansa future. From Winteriscoming review of the commentaries of the Season 6 Box set: Cogman admits that the Brother Ray character was a blend of a couple different characters Brienne meets in A Feast for Crows, which we figured. Interestingly, he also says that, while it’s hinted that the Hound is still alive in the books, they weren’t sure where George R.R. Martin was going to take it. “We took that kernel and fashioned this storyline.” So who knows if anything like this will show up in the books? I still do not reach that part of the commentaries in my blu-ray disks, but if the quote is right, what does it mean about Sandor fate in GRRM mind? Is Sandor narrative (and how he relates to the main characters) all set in stone or it is not? Edited January 7, 2017 by OhOkayWhat Link to comment
Happy Harpy January 7, 2017 Share January 7, 2017 (edited) On 06/01/2017 at 9:53 PM, whateverdgaf said: The fact is, Rhaegar was a prince. He had responsibilites towards his family and the country as a whole. He knew that, and still behaved the way he did. Almost every interpretation of his character out there suggests him to be an utterly despicable human being, however charming he may have appeared. I'd tend to think the opposite and after he was cleared of being a kidnapper/rapist, he might be cleared of being a reckless fool. Rhaegar was obsessed with the prophecy, so he was obsessed with saving the world from darkness. He was the epitome of "responsible". I found it very out of character for him to run away with Lyanna. Maybe it's just that like everyone on ASOIAF or almost, he had a dark side/a lethal weakness. But I also found it quite weird that he took his mistress to Dorne of all places. Imo there's more to the story, and my personal crackpot theory is that it has something to do with dragon eggs. Anyway, if there's anything to reveal it will be in S8 but I wonder if there could be little hints in S7. As for the name of "Aegon": Until the 19th century in Europe, when a child died at a young age, it was quite common to give their name to the following child who was born from the same couple. I have many examples in my own genealogy tree. It wasn't rare either for noble men or royalty to give the same first name to several of their living children born of different spouses. In this particular case, maybe the Prince that was Promised has to be named Aegon for some reason and that's why Jon inherited the name. I'm the devil's advocate here, because the Young Griff/Aegon thing is probably my least favorite plot, I can't stand the little wanker and I don't want Jon to bear that name. I'd prefer Jaehaerys or Aemon, both could have inspired Jon to Ned. Or even Jaemon, if Lyanna and Rhaegar were into portmanteau names before it was hype :D Edited January 7, 2017 by Happy Harpy 3 Link to comment
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