Season 7: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, Advance35 said:

ST talking about how She and Maisie wanted to get tattoos before their killed off?!?!?! 

I don't think she would so blatantly signal something like that in an interview.  Though she probably would tease such things either way.

2 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

Notably Sophie's hair is still blond. It will be like a giant "red" THEY'VE STARTED SHOOTING! flag when she dyes it again.

A lot of us are speculating that she's switched to a wig this season, after dyeing it back to something close to her natural colour for her last movie role.  Mainly because she was in Belfast for much of last week, so if she was filming then, she obviously hasn't dyed her hair.  Though she may have been in Belfast for any number of other reasons (supposedly they're gearing up to shoot at Moneyglass, where they do the Winterfell stuff, in very short order).

I hope she's not using a wig, because the wigs on this show are mostly bad, and Sophie's beautiful hair was one of the main exceptions among the main female cast.

Unrelatedly, McCann was saying at the Emmys that he knew he'd be back the whole time (which, for scheduling purposes, makes sense) and is glad to no longer have to lie about it.

Edited September 19, 2016 by SeanC

[anamika]

17 hours ago, Wouter said:

Baelish was not working for the Lannister like the Hound. He was working for the crown, but so was Renly. He is a nobleman from the Vale, which chose to stay neutral. He could have decided to join one of the rebellious factions. The Hound, on the other hand, is actually part of the Lannister army, directly in the pay of the Lannisters and sworn to Joffrey personally. That's quite a difference.

 

This is splitting hairs.  LF was just as much hired help was was the Hound. 'Just following orders' does not work for the Hound. The Hound could have left anytime, as he eventually did when his personal issues got in the way. But no, he continued slaughtering and killing (even children) for the Lannisters. And yes, Baelish was working for the crown - and Ned was rebelling against that crown. The Hound is also a nobleman just like LF - he belongs to house Clegane.  LF belongs to a small house and is not representative of the Vale - he was master of coin on the small council - that's all. The Hound and LF were both taking orders from Cersei. So no, that's not quite a difference.

17 hours ago, Wouter said:

We're not conducting a trial here; are you seriously saying you don't believe that Baelish had Ned murdered? I believe that every hint in the books on this issue point to him being the ultimate murderer - even if you would state your opinion for a 101st time. And it didn't die with Joffrey, Varys to Tyrion in ACOK: "Who truly killed Eddard Stark, do you think? Joffrey, who gave the command? Ser Ilyn Payne, who swung the sword? Or . . . another?"

I can't believe this point is this hard to understand . The reader can believe whatever they want. But what does it matter if Varys and Tyrion have some vague suspicions that LF ordered Ned's death?! Can they prove it? How will they prove it? The only other people who know anything about this for a fact are LF and Joffrey and - JOFFREY is DEAD. Even if they can prove it (Which they cannot) why in the world would Varys and Tyrion bother about Sansa Stark knowing this? They are too busy trying to get the Targs back on the throne.  If we are talking about the Hound, then he knows nothing about this stuff.

17 hours ago, Wouter said:

And I'm also going to repeat myself: Bran can see anything that the author wants him to see. And he seems able to communicate with his siblings, through dreams.

Well then, Bran should also inform Sansa that her boyfriend, the Hound, assaulted and kidnapped her sister for ransom, slaughtered her best friend's father and generally helped in Ned's capture and captivity in KL. But I suspect Sansa already knows this and is not too bothered by the fact. Though I suspect Jeyne would have a problem if Sansa is pissed off at LF for being responsible for Ned's death and is then canoodling with the man who killed her father - double standards and all that.

17 hours ago, Wouter said:

LF is not Sansa's friend. He is one of the major reasons of the fall of the Starks, of the deads of her mother and father, of the fall of Winterfell. He framed her for murder in KL, and implicated her in his doings with Marillion. And his plans for her will not end well for her, ultimately. Unless she gets the drop on him, which I believe she will, with or without help.

We know that LF is not Sansa's friend. But does Sansa? Despite knowing everything she does about him (including him working with the Lannisters against her family in KL) she still trusts him and considers him necessary for her survival. She has no ill feelings towards the Hound or even Tyrion - people who acted against the Starks.  She is looking out for number one and as long as LF also looks out for Sansa and helps her - which he does - I don't see her breaking with him. An event as shattering as Ned's death - possibly SR's death - maybe what makes her break with him at long last.

16 hours ago, SeanC said:

Sansa doesn't consider Casterly Rock "safety".  It's just another place full of Lannisters, where she's subject to the will of the Lannisters.

This is not a case of being naive.  It's a case where your values don't line up with the character's.  Sansa wants to escape, and is willing to take risks to achieve the only thing she considers worthwhile.  Saying she's naive for not wanting to help decorate the walls of her prison cell is like saying Bran is dumb for traveling north of the Wall instead of going to White Harbor; the objectives behind those choices are fundamentally different.

Unlike in KL, she feels she has nowhere to escape to (as she notes).  The death of Dontos, who she had trusted, was also probably a big factor in this.

Again why did she trust the Tyrells to do right by her? How did they show her that they were trustworthy enough to take her out of KL? And she does just the opposite in the Vale. The Vale Lords could help her if they knew who she was, but she refuses to take the risk of trusting them to achieve escape and decides to subject herself to the will of Littlefinger. You are arguing that both her decisions are right, which makes no sense to me. Either she realizes that her decision in KL was wrong and that blindly trusting in the Tyrells was wrong, and therefore in the Vale she decides to go with the man offering her protection and safety, however dubious that maybe. Or according to you, she makes the right decision in KL when she foolishly trusted that the Tyrells would get her out of KL and is making the wrong decision currently by subjecting herself to LF's will as opposed to trusting the Vale Lords.

16 hours ago, SeanC said:

Each of those cases is different, and its effect is different.  Your whole worldview doesn't change in one instant, and there's a huge difference between, e.g., Sansa's interactions with Cersei in the first book, and the guarded way she approaches the Tyrells in the third (which they overcome, because they're experienced and know how to play on her emotional trauma by offering the prospect of things she hasn't had since Ned died).

No most of these cases are rather similar - and they emphasize the same thing again and again - her tendency to trust the wrong people and distrust the right ones. The show highlights something similar when she distrusts Jon of all people - why? She first distrusts Brienne - learns otherwise after going through hell (Similar to the books where she gets herself into worse situations by trusting the wrong people), then she distrusts Davos - despite Jon trusting in him, then she distrusts Jon himself because LF mentions that he is her half brother. 

And Sansa does change at the end of book one - no one is denying that. After remaining blind to the faults of the Lannisters for an entire book,  despite them doing increasingly evil things, her world view does change in an instant - when Ned loses his head. That event wakes her up and from then on she is all about being guarded and trusting no one. My point is that from book two to book five there is very little growth. She is very static and repetitive - one can read her POV to know what is happening around her, but it get's tedious after a while when the character herself refuses to grow.

Like I mentioned earlier, she currently has more or less the same thoughts about LF that she had of Tyrion - he's nice but maybe untrustworthy, her life sucks, she cannot escape, being a bastard sucks (But hey these dresses are nice!), she wishes the Hound was there etc etc. Though it was rather jarring, her TWoW sample chapter had a much better Sansa - more flirty and calculating and less whiny. But as I mentioned, jarring - if GRRM wants to make her into any kind of player I am guessing there will be more sudden changes in the remaining books than any gradual evolution.

16 hours ago, SeanC said:

The fact that she didn't come up with the main plan doesn't mean she didn't have to contribute to its execution.  Keeping up her meetings with Dontos so that nobody becomes suspicious requires skill, as is repeatedly shown in her interactions with Tyrion (beginning in ACOK, where she has to come up with a plausible reason why she'd turn down Tyrion's offer of shelter in the Tower of the Hand, which Tyrion buys completely).
 

She lied that she was going to the Godswoods to pray - that was her contribution. Forgive me, if I don't see that as indicative of Sansa becoming a master player of the game.

16 hours ago, SeanC said:

No, but his story is very much connected to Dany and Tyrion, two of the three top-tier characters.  So why no camera?
 

I don't understand. Are you saying that Dany and Tyrion should be used as cameras for Varys? Dany and Tyrion are, as you say, top tier characters. GRRM has spend a lot of time on them. He used a whole book (10 chapters) to teach Dany how to rule.  Tyrion has 42 POV chapters. Why would GRRM use them as cameras? These are characters that learn and change over five books - Hell, ACoK was Tyrion's book where he moves the chess pieces and actively changes the lives of many characters.  Dany starts out powerless, hatches her dragons and ends up ruling Meereen. Varys is obviously doing his own thing with Aegon. LF, meanwhile sets off to destroy the Starks, the primary protagonists of the series.

17 hours ago, Advance35 said:

I don't know if the same rules can be applied to Arya based on the simple fact that her "story" is more fantasy.   Being able to Mission-Impossible faces (I still don't get how that works) makes her as grounded in realism as a Unicorn.   She's like Dany and her dragons. I feel that Sansa has to work within more human limitations.  But I'm also convinced this is what has made her one of the show's most popular and discussed characters.

I feel like Sansa is a much discussed character because there is a large disconnect between the way fans of the character perceive her and the way others do as evidenced by the current discussion going on. This is true of the show as well, where the character is poorly written and acted, leaving it up to the viewers to watch the 'behind the scenes' interviews to decipher her actions. And even here, those who like her see her actions one way and others see it differently. 

As for popularity, I would think Dany and Arya are very popular as well, despite being characters associated with fantasy. And besides, Dany and Arya have to work within human limitations too. Dany in fact spend an entire book and a season, navigating politics and an insurgency while Arya spend books trying to survive on her own without anyone's help. Even on the show, Arya empathizes with the humanity of Lady Crane, makes a crucial decision and takes on the Waif by herself, not by using magic.

The only character who has been solely stuck in the magical realm on the show is unfortunately Bran. The show has deemed to use him only for flashbacks and exposition via weirnet. Hopefully this will change next season, as there's more to Bran than just a warg machine.

Edited September 19, 2016 by anamika

[Eyes High]

Sophie said during one of last night's interviews that she cried after reading the Season 7 scripts. She also said it's "holy balls," insane, etc. etc.

10 hours ago, Advance35 said:

I find the Starks especially uninteresting, with the exception of Sansa (and Jon now that she's joined him up North) however I do worry LF and Sansa won't make it out of the season.   ST talking about how She and Maisie wanted to get tattoos before their killed off?!?!?!

I'd be very surprised if LF made it out of the season.

9 hours ago, SeanC said:

I don't think she would so blatantly signal something like that in an interview.  Though she probably would tease such things either way.

A lot of us are speculating that she's switched to a wig this season, after dyeing it back to something close to her natural colour for her last movie role.  Mainly because she was in Belfast for much of last week, so if she was filming then, she obviously hasn't dyed her hair.  Though she may have been in Belfast for any number of other reasons (supposedly they're gearing up to shoot at Moneyglass, where they do the Winterfell stuff, in very short order).

I hope she's not using a wig, because the wigs on this show are mostly bad, and Sophie's beautiful hair was one of the main exceptions among the main female cast.

Unrelatedly, McCann was saying at the Emmys that he knew he'd be back the whole time (which, for scheduling purposes, makes sense) and is glad to no longer have to lie about it.

Sophie's spoiled stuff before (spoiling that she lives through the season last year).

Cersei and Dany's long-haired wigs, despite how cheap they look, are super expensive--I thought Cersei's long-haired wig cost something like $10,000--so I doubt they would use a wig "just because." However, Sophie's "beautiful hair" won't stay beautiful if she keeps dyeing it and keeping it in those harsh braided hairstyles that she wears on the show. If she wants a break, I wouldn't blame her. With that said, assuming Sophie is going the wig route for Season 6, it's not crazy to suppose that there might be storyline reasons for it: if Sansa gets her hair chopped off this season, for example.

Not sure if anything can be read into it vis-a-vis Sophie's Hairwatch 2016, but Rory McCann and Conleth Hill have prepped their hair for filming already. Rory shaved the patch in his beard for the prosthetic, and Conleth shaved his head.

On another note, Irish Thrones reports that the Moneyglass set (Winterfell exterior) is buzzing with lots of activity, and the show is prepping for extensive filming there.

Edited September 19, 2016 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

7 hours ago, anamika said:

Again why did she trust the Tyrells to do right by her? How did they show her that they were trustworthy enough to take her out of KL? And she does just the opposite in the Vale. The Vale Lords could help her if they knew who she was, but she refuses to take the risk of trusting them to achieve escape and decides to subject herself to the will of Littlefinger. You are arguing that both her decisions are right, which makes no sense to me. Either she realizes that her decision in KL was wrong and that blindly trusting in the Tyrells was wrong, and therefore in the Vale she decides to go with the man offering her protection and safety, however dubious that maybe. Or according to you, she makes the right decision in KL when she foolishly trusted that the Tyrells would get her out of KL and is making the wrong decision currently by subjecting herself to LF's will as opposed to trusting the Vale Lords.

As I pointed out, between KL and the Vale she loses any sense that there's anywhere for her to escape to.  She's less trusting overall after KL and the whole thing with Dontos, which is both good and bad (since it's something Baelish exploits).

Quote

She lied that she was going to the Godswoods to pray - that was her contribution. 

No, that wasn't the moment in question.

Quote

I don't understand. Are you saying that Dany and Tyrion should be used as cameras for Varys?...Varys is obviously doing his own thing with Aegon. LF, meanwhile sets off to destroy the Starks, the primary protagonists of the series.

No, my point is that Varys is at least as important to the overarching plot as Littlefinger (more important, you might even say, given how much he's involved in the stories of two of the three central protagonists).  fAegon will be a pretty big thing for Dany.  And yet, he does not require a camera POV.

[AshleyN]

On 9/18/2016 at 1:46 PM, roguetamlin said:

I'm stupidly excited that Gendry is (probably) coming back, but I'm also really really hoping his role isn't like Osha and Rickon's or just as a adjunct to Arya's story. He is on the show the last Barratheon and since we've seen Ramsey become a Bolton and Jon Snow begin a similar path to becoming a Stark/Targaryan and Gendry now knows who he is, I would be annoyed if his bastardy was still an issue. There's also the element that in the Wars of the Roses that has been an inspiration for the GOT story, in the end it was Henry Tudor who won with a claim based on illegitimate blood lines and the force of arms. He could be a potential (and not closely related) consort for Dany or the fulfillment of the Stark/Barratheon marriage from the beginning. So if he shows up just to be killed off or for a moment where Arya is reminded that she is still a Lady (which I think would be bs anyways given the examples of Nymeria and various ass kicking Targaryans) and then vanishes again, well, that would suck.

There's a difference there though, in that both Ramsay and Jon were acknowledged by their fathers. Roose Bolton personally had Ramsay legitimized as a Bolton, while Jon was raised at Winterfell alongside his Stark siblings. I think there's a difference between the highborn accepting a bastard who has the background, upbringing, and education of a noble (if not the name) after he led forces to reclaim his family's seat in his family's name, and them accepting a bastard who barely anyone knows exists at this point, has never been formerly acknowledged by a member of his house, and who was being brought up as a blacksmith's apprentice. 

[Wouter]

11 hours ago, anamika said:

This is splitting hairs.  LF was just as much hired help was was the Hound. 'Just following orders' does not work for the Hound. The Hound could have left anytime, as he eventually did when his personal issues got in the way. But no, he continued slaughtering and killing (even children) for the Lannisters. And yes, Baelish was working for the crown - and Ned was rebelling against that crown. The Hound is also a nobleman just like LF - he belongs to house Clegane.  LF belongs to a small house and is not representative of the Vale - he was master of coin on the small council - that's all. The Hound and LF were both taking orders from Cersei. So no, that's not quite a difference.

I can't believe this point is this hard to understand . The reader can believe whatever they want. But what does it matter if Varys and Tyrion have some vague suspicions that LF ordered Ned's death?! Can they prove it? How will they prove it? The only other people who know anything about this for a fact are LF and Joffrey and - JOFFREY is DEAD. Even if they can prove it (Which they cannot) why in the world would Varys and Tyrion bother about Sansa Stark knowing this? They are too busy trying to get the Targs back on the throne.  If we are talking about the Hound, then he knows nothing about this stuff.

We know that LF is not Sansa's friend. But does Sansa? Despite knowing everything she does about him (including him working with the Lannisters against her family in KL) she still trusts him and considers him necessary for her survival. She has no ill feelings towards the Hound or even Tyrion - people who acted against the Starks.  She is looking out for number one and as long as LF also looks out for Sansa and helps her - which he does - I don't see her breaking with him. An event as shattering as Ned's death - possibly SR's death - maybe what makes her break with him at long last.

 

What you don't understand: Westeros is a feudal world. The Hound is not a hired help. He is sworn to serve his feudal lords, the Lannisters. He can't just decide he likes the Arryns better. His lands are part of the Lannister realm, and one of the duties of a feudal lord (in this case, Gregor) is to provide military service to his liege lord. And the Cleganes have the Lannisters to thank for everything they are, which makes the ties closer.

Sure, the Hound did defect in the end, but that isn't a step taken lightly in a feudal society. Unless he is perceived as having a very good reason, he would be considered a pariah for refusing to do his duty.

Lord Baelish is also not a hired help (nor was he taking orders from Cersei - he was toying with her). He is the master of coin, and a lord in his own right, though sworn to Arryns instead of Lannisters or the Crown. In so far as he was "hired", his task is to control the crown's treasury. It's not to scheme behind the Kings back, with Ned, with Renly, with Cersei. It's not to send false letters to start a war. It's not to whisper in the kings ear so a personal enemy of his gets killed, against the best interests of the Crown and even of the Lannisters themselves. If Tywin had realised, his head would have been on a stake.

As for Varys having proof : GRRM once wrote: if you are expecting Lord Perry of house Mason to show up to argue the finer points of law, you will be disappointed. Did Ned need proof to send a Royal force after Clegane? Did Joffrey need proof to execute Ned? Did Lysa need proof to have Tyrion executed (short of Bronn)? ...

Sansa doesn't know LF is not her friend. Yet. But that doesn't mean her eyes will never be opened. I believe this will be point her story arc is building towards. Similar to Arya breaking up with the Faceless Man.

Edited September 19, 2016 by Wouter

[Wouter]

Double post

Edited September 19, 2016 by Wouter

[Eyes High]

In the descriptions of Season 7 by cast members category...Maisie Williams said the audience will find the new season "heartbreaking...and exciting, hopefully...? I don't know, they might just find it heartbreaking." She also said words to the effect that she has the benefit of detachment so she can find the material exciting from a storytelling perspective, whereas the audience might be upset at characters leaving the show.

Sophie told Entertainment Tonight there will be some "crazy dragon stuff." (Dragon vs. dragon? One of the dragons dies? Dragonbinder?)

All the vaguely ominous references to characters dying--which is always a given in GOT, of course--make me wonder about who's going to make the death list in Season 7. We know at least one Sand Snake is going to die at Euron's hands, and I doubt the Greyjoy sibling captured by Euron is going to survive. This also looks to be LF and Cersei's last season.

The number of current named characters available to kill is getting pretty lean:

Team Dany: Dany, Missandei, Grey Worm, Varys, Tyrion, Olenna, Ellaria, Tyene, Obara, Nym, Jorah, Theon, Yara

KL: Cersei, Qyburn, Jaime, Gregor, Bronn, Euron (putting him here since he allies with her in Season 7)

Riverlands: Arya, Edmure, Sandor, Beric, Thoros, Melisandre (assuming), Brienne, Pod, Gendry

Winterfell: Jon, Sansa, LF, Bronze Yohn Royce, Lyanna Mormont, Davos, Tormund, Lord Glover, Lord Manderly, Lord Cerwyn

Vale: Robin Arryn

Wall: Dolorous Edd, Bran, Meera

Reach: Sam, Gilly, baby Sam

Last season averaged 3.5 named character deaths per episode, although some of those deaths were of new characters (Lady Crane, e.g.), or characters who were brought back after an absence (Osha and Rickon). I wouldn't be surprised if there were another mass death event contrived by D&D to clear the decks like the Sept explosion sequence. Gendry may also be brought back just to get killed off.

I'm hoping that the shortened season and all the battles being planned for Season 7 will result in the writers curbing their usual tendency to cram all the good stuff into the last two or three episodes and pad the rest of the season with a lot of boring filler. More likely, though, we'll still have filler--the fact that a courtesan character whose actress is willing to do nudity is being cast for Season 7 is not promising--only somewhat less of it.

Edited September 19, 2016 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

47 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Last season averaged 3.5 named character deaths per episode, although some of those deaths were of new characters (Lady Crane, e.g.), or characters who were brought back after an absence (Osha and Rickon). I wouldn't be surprised if there were another mass death event contrived by D&D to clear the decks like the Sept explosion sequence. Gendry may also be brought back just to get killed off.

It seems like the wrapping up of the southern storyline (more or less) would offer the most opportunity to whittle down the cast more (though I think the show is getting close to brass tacks, at least before the Long Night happens).

Jorah is another possible major character casualty, seeing as he's been diagnosed with a fatal disease, though the show at least held out the possibility of curing it, so who knows?  If, as many speculate, Jorah is headed to Oldtown, the notion of a cure may just be a plot device to have him meet Sam.

I'll be interested to see if we get Maisie filming at the Banbridge set that they used for Riverrun, which prior reports indicated was being prepared for more filming.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

I'll be interested to see if we get Maisie filming at the Banbridge set that they used for Riverrun, which prior reports indicated was being prepared for more filming.

Possibly. Arya's the only leading character still in the Riverlands, so if they're using that set, there's a good chance it has something to do with her.

[SeanC]

6 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Possibly. Arya's the only leading character still in the Riverlands, so if they're using that set, there's a good chance it has something to do with her.

One thing I noted in last season's finale was that they made a point of saying that Edmure was back in the dungeon at the Twins (not where he is headed in the books), which is where Arya was when last we saw her, so it's possible the former comment was meant to set up her springing him for next year.  Or it could mean nothing.

Edited September 19, 2016 by SeanC

[Minneapple]

15 hours ago, anamika said:

I feel like Sansa is a much discussed character because there is a large disconnect between the way fans of the character perceive her and the way others do as evidenced by the current discussion going on. This is true of the show as well, where the character is poorly written and acted, leaving it up to the viewers to watch the 'behind the scenes' interviews to decipher her actions. And even here, those who like her see her actions one way and others see it differently. 

As for popularity, I would think Dany and Arya are very popular as well, despite being characters associated with fantasy. And besides, Dany and Arya have to work within human limitations too. Dany in fact spend an entire book and a season, navigating politics and an insurgency while Arya spend books trying to survive on her own without anyone's help. Even on the show, Arya empathizes with the humanity of Lady Crane, makes a crucial decision and takes on the Waif by herself, not by using magic.

I think Sansa is much-discussed because the writers have deliberately left her character open to interpretation. Jon and Dany -- the trajectory of their character arcs are easy to see. They are supposed to be good guys, they are trying to be heroes, they want to do good, Dany will arrive with her dragons, they'll defeat the others, etc., etc. Sansa's arc is a little more unclear. She doesn't really want to do good on a grand scale, she hasn't expressed a desire to rule the realm or anything like that. Her desires have changed over time. So what does she want now? What is the trajectory of her arc? And I do believe that the showrunners have left this open-ended because they want to keep us guessing, and that fosters a lot of discussion. People see her actions differently because everyone interprets things differently, and that's perfectly fair. 

Not sure how I'd feel about Sophie wearing a wig. On the one hand, the wigs on this show are, yes, generally atrocious. On the other, I see what the poster said about Sophie's hair being dyed and re-dyed and I would hate for her to ruin her hair like that. She has such gorgeous hair!

In any case, I note that Emilia, Maisie and Sophie all said they are flying back to Belfast to start filming this week, so Hairwatch 2016 should be resolved soon.

[TxanGoddess]

Damn, we need to make a pool like they do for Superbowl scores, and see if we can make these speculations even more worthwhile!

The "heartbreaking" comment from Maisie really has me thinking.  Can someone refresh my memory on the exact quote GRRM made about Dany, Tyrion, Jon, Arya and Bran as being the main five or something?  It wasn't a guarantee of survival, but of a lengthy duration within the series iirc, either way I think those five are all safe for this next season.

That means then we have to narrow down deaths that would be 1) likely to occur at all and 2) really evocative to the audience.

I don't think Gendry is coming back just to die, and I don't think Sansa is dying unless its ignobly in aex way that would no longer be heartbreaking but deserved.  I also don't see Jamie being exactly considered heartbreaking despite the line he is always walking  between villain and redeemed villain. 

Cersei, LF, Euron and the Sand Snakes also wouldn't fit "heartbreaking," though they are likely to be on the chopping block.

So whose left?  I'm intrigued to read others guesses.  For myself,  I am absolutely crushed to say it but I'm laying odds on Ghost for one. 

Edited September 20, 2016 by TxanGoddess

[SeanC]

Everybody has their own notion of what's heartbreaking.  For all we know she thinks Cersei's death is sad, for instance, depending on how they play it.

[Lady S.]

I don't think we can really compare s7 to s6 as far as named-character-deathcount. S6 was a major act break while s7 is basically the first part of the final act, which is basically one extended 13/14 ep season split into two. Also, if we look at the s6 deathcount, even in the finale, Marg, Tommen, and Walder were the only ones with major plot impact. So I'm still not too worried about the Original Big Five + Sansa.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Lady S.

[OhOkayWhat]

From one of her weekend interviews, I get that Maisie has been filming last week!...oh! and Rory has been filming too, a part of his beard, just one side, is shaved. Now, the question is, (about the Riverlands storyline) will it have "under a roof" scenes or everything will happen in the middle of the woods?

Edited September 20, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[TxanGoddess]

6 hours ago, SeanC said:

Everybody has their own notion of what's heartbreaking.  For all we know she thinks Cersei's death is sad, for instance, depending on how they play it.

That's true of course.  That's why I just wish there was some means of gathering a group of fans together to survey each of them as to what they would personally find heartbreaking.  A forum if you will ...

Well so much for that idea.

[Eyes High]

9 hours ago, TxanGoddess said:

That means then we have to narrow down deaths that would be 1) likely to occur at all and 2) really evocative to the audience.

I don't think Gendry is coming back just to die, and I don't think Sansa is dying unless its ignobly in aex way that would no longer be heartbreaking but deserved.  I also don't see Jamie being exactly considered heartbreaking despite the line he is always walking  between villain and redeemed villain. 

Cersei, LF, Euron and the Sand Snakes also wouldn't fit "heartbreaking," though they are likely to be on the chopping block.

So whose left?  I'm intrigued to read others guesses.  For myself,  I am absolutely crushed to say it but I'm laying odds on Ghost for one. 

Assuming Arya's referring to a plot development within the Riverlands plot, Brienne, Pod, or the Hound's deaths would devastate the fans. Otherwise, sounds like another Stark gets the boot. I doubt it's a direwolf's death; Summer's death barely registered next to Hodor's.

More generally, just reading between the lines of the various interviews, it seems to me that Season 7 will be the most depressing season yet. The deaths of beloved characters will be a part of that, but not the only part, I think.

8 hours ago, SeanC said:

Everybody has their own notion of what's heartbreaking.  For all we know she thinks Cersei's death is sad, for instance, depending on how they play it.

Except that Maisie's comment was about what she thought the audience would find heartbreaking, not what Maisie personally thinks is sad. Maisie knows better than to assume that the fans will be heartbroken by Cersei's death, or those of characters like Euron and the Sand Snakes.

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The "heartbreaking" comment from Maisie really has me thinking.  Can someone refresh my memory on the exact quote GRRM made about Dany, Tyrion, Jon, Arya and Bran as being the main five or something?  It wasn't a guarantee of survival, but of a lengthy duration within the series iirc, either way I think those five are all safe for this next season.

GRRM never came out and said Dany, Tyrion, Jon, Arya and Bran are the "main five," but the 1993 outline letter identified them as the five central characters who would live through the whole series and who would be exempt from his "any character can die at any time" policy. In context, it was a guarantee of survival. Whether GRRM has changed mind about the characters' fates in the intervening 20 years is up for debate, but GRRM said before the outline leaked that he intended to stick with the broad strokes of the ending he's known since 1991 (two years before the outline letter came out).

Edited September 20, 2016 by Eyes High

[Advance35]

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Dany in fact spend an entire book and a season, navigating politics and an insurgency while Arya spend books trying to survive on her own without anyone's help. Even on the show, Arya empathizes with the humanity of Lady Crane, makes a crucial decision and takes on the Waif by herself, not by using magic.

Ya, I would have to disagree but I'm glad there are those that enjoy those "stories."

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She doesn't really want to do good on a grand scale, she hasn't expressed a desire to rule the realm or anything like that. Her desires have changed over time. So what does she want now? What is the trajectory of her arc? And I do believe that the showrunners have left this open-ended because they want to keep us guessing, and that fosters a lot of discussion. People see her actions differently because everyone interprets things differently, and that's perfectly fair. 

It's one of the things I love about her.  I've seen theories that had her ending up in Highgarden with Willas Tyrell (*sniff*) and even some that find her ending up in Dorne with Trystane.   She's ended up a bitter, ice-cold, machiavelli in the North and there have been those who've speculated that she'll move past everything and work in the Royal Court to try and help everyone in the following generation have a better childhood then she did.  I understand ambiguity can frustrate and there are definitely times I wish I had a better idea of where Sansa is going but I actually very much like that I can't predict by the numbers like I can with other characters.

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So whose left?  I'm intrigued to read others guesses.  For myself,  I am absolutely crushed to say it but I'm laying odds on Ghost for one. 

I believe the Holy 5 are safe, special and sacred until the epilogue.

You know I totally forgot about Ghost?   I could see him not making it.   Davos Seaworth might break a few hearts, depending on how he died.   Lady Mormont as well.   And I wouldn't be so sure Gendry is safe, look at the fates of Rickon and Osha, many were sure there would be more to their story and in the novels (if they are ever written) there may be but I  think they will die and not of old age.

I think the audience is attached enough to Lady Olenna Tyrell to feel a pang if she is taken out during everything coming down the pike.

I don't know what Meera Reed's fate is.  I honestly never gave it much thought but as Billie the reaper says "with the credits about to roll" I assume her saga will be tied up in some way.  She could die making sure Bran gets to the right side of the Wall.

If it's Cersei v. Danerys, I have know doubt who will win but I also have know doubt Cersei is taking a few people with her.   I could see Varys dying in the skirmish or through an assassination attempt.   Grey Worm and Messandri have had a quiet and (some might say) poignant mini arc.

And in terms of Heartbreaking, I'm not sure Brienne's demise wouldn't bring the water works for some.  Podrick Payne could go down as well.

Could the story truly wipe the board of everyone and just have the final season centered on Tyrion, Jon, Bran, Dany and Arya with a bunch of characters that won't divert interest or attention from their own narratives.   A bunch of red shirts as it were.   With the exception of Tyrion, none are especially interesting and they wouldn't need to be if the final season is a 6 hour Lord of the Rings type story of the "Others" vs. Humanity.

[Eyes High]

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I believe the Holy 5 are safe, special and sacred until the epilogue.

Yup. Sansa, on the other hand...

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I don't know what Meera Reed's fate is.  I honestly never gave it much thought but as Billie the reaper says "with the credits about to roll" I assume her saga will be tied up in some way.  She could die making sure Bran gets to the right side of the Wall.

GOT has made me ship Bran/Meera pretty hard. If Bran does end up king in the North (Bran the Rebuilder?), Meera would make a great queen.

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If it's Cersei v. Danerys, I have know doubt who will win but I also have know doubt Cersei is taking a few people with her.   I could see Varys dying in the skirmish or through an assassination attempt.   Grey Worm and Messandri have had a quiet and (some might say) poignant mini arc.

Varys' role in the GOT story seems to be at an end (and I don't expect ASOIAF Varys to outlast Aegon for very long). Grey Worm could also die in battle.

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And in terms of Heartbreaking, I'm not sure Brienne's demise wouldn't bring the water works for some.  Podrick Payne could go down as well.

Brienne and/or Pod dying would be truly heartbreaking, for me, anyway.

I might be in the minority on this, but I've always loved Yara and Theon's relationship. If it ends with one of them being captured and presumably murdered by Euron, I for one will be heartbroken.

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Could the story truly wipe the board of everyone and just have the final season centered on Tyrion, Jon, Bran, Dany and Arya with a bunch of characters that won't divert interest or attention from their own narratives.   A bunch of red shirts as it were.

Anyone who isn't one of the main five is pretty much a glorified redshirt at this point.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Eyes High

[amandawoods]

I think that Theon and Jamie could be a pretty heartbreaking death.  Especially if Brienne is involved with the latter.  Also any of the dragons or Ghost dying would be heartbreaking for fans.  

[GrailKing]

Been a while, and I posted this at Westeros forum, but I'll place it here it pulls things from both SHOW and BOOKs, and it was my rebuttal more or less on Sansa is the evil bitch and she is turning on Jon and her house.

IT'S LONG and I could totally be wrong in my assessment and predictions.

 

Discussing Sansa:2016-09-13 22:29:11.991

Discussing Sansa:

 I see both sides to the argument. ( and this turned out longer then I thought)

If Sansa kept shut about the Vale because as some people state, that Sansa didn't want to be forced into a choice but have THE choice, sort of comes off as selfish ( at least to me ) the moment that the pink letter came to the wall that argument is moot, the choice to refuse LF is hers ( because Molestown was before the letter), the choice to not tell Jon after she sent the letter is not. Sansa is now involved with plans to retake their home and it involves herself, Jon, Brienne, Davos, Millisandre, Tormond and his 2500 fighters and whom ever else they can gather, at the least she should confer with Jon and let him know that she refused LF because of what happened to her, again I based these actions at before and after the pink letter arrival.

 

People who say Sansa is an inherently evil bitch, and only cares for herself, or wants Rickon, Jon or others killed so she can have Winterfell for herself don't read, or they are looking at a different show in my opinion.

In the beginning of the book and show Sansa does come off as snobby, elitist and very naive (and disregard her upbringing and status custom of the times ), but she has never done anything remotely evil ever.

The show cut out and changed things from the book, due mostly to time constraints but also to bring each character to their central points, they cut out the part where Sansa vouched for Arya to her father and changed the scene in front of Robert to have Cersei call Sansa to tell what she saw; and Sansa lied to the King, but did not vouched for Joffry nor did she deny what Arya said to her father, she played the middle and got burnt. We then see Cersei demand a wolf and Robert gave it to her, and Ned doing the deed and sending Lady home for burial and the subsequent sibling feud between Sansa and Arya and they add the Ned talking to Arya scene to explain why Sansa did what she did and ends it with Arya asking her father "how can you let her marry someone like that"? Ned had no answer.

They cut straight to Neds actions of confronting Cersei in the God's Woods, eliminate Sansa running away to Cersei so she can say goodbye to Joffry against her father's instructions ( though if they bring it up later in the show it can change things ).We see his changing the Kings last words, LF's betrayal, Sansa's plea for her father's life, Cersei forcing her to write to Robb and Cat ( yet Sansa still asked to see her father to ask before writing) ending with Joffry's betrayal and Sansa's retort about heads and her attempt to push the new King off the wall only to be stopped by the Hound, nothing here points to Sansa being evil or self centered, just naive, foolish and defiant .

From season two and book two on we see Sansa evolved she listens to Sandor and( in book ) Dontos and starts playing the mouse going below radar it keeps her from the King and Cersei's  attacks along with the help of Tyrion and Bron now in Kings Landing,Sansa is continuously being mentally tortured by Cersei and Joffry and almost ganged raped ( to be rescued by the Hound) she saves Dontos life by coming up with a false saying about killing someone on your nameday, she tries to manipulate the King into fighting at the head of the battle instead of from behind, she calms the people in the hold fast and gets aid for Lancel Lannister after Cersei hits him and runs off with Tommen on a murder suicide attempt. She calms the Hound before he leaves and refused his offer to go with him; some people think this was a bad decision on her part, but was it?

The Hound was drunk ( and in book violent ), Stannis was winning she was next to Cersie and Lancel when Lancel said the war was lost so as far as she knew she be rescued, except Tywin showed up and defeated Stannis a situation she could not foresee, nor did Cersei either.

From this point on Sansa continues to lie to the Lannisters, and she puts trust in the Tyrells as they offer an escape out of KL she still shows her naiveness by confiding in (book )Dontos not knowing Dontos is working for LF and Shae ( not knowing she's Tyrion's spy ), there's a lot Sansa doesn't know about LF, nor do the Lannisters, the Tyrells, Tullys, Arryns etc. she's only 11/12 in book and 13/14 in show. She cries and is angry and depressed over the death of her mother and brother, she feigns going to the Gods wood (depending on the medium you follow) Sansa is continuously being mentally tortured by Cersei and Joffry  until LF and Lady Olena decide on a course of action that frames Sansa and Tyrion  for the King's death; and is subsequently told by LF that he is taking her home. Depending on the medium one chooses to refer to, Sansa figured out on her own what LF and QOT did or she is filled in on the info; again there is nothing here showing or hinting at some evil selfish bitch who doesn't care about family, just a young girl using what she has to keep her alive and eventually out of KL.

Now we get Sansa in the Vale and (in show it's a major departure from the books)we get an Aunt who welcomed her but secretly hates her and also jealous of her niece,we have betrayal to her by her Aunt and her Husband (LF) we have a bratty and dysfunctional child who is being manipulated by a sinister step-dad and we have Sansa continuing her game of innocence and lies and it's here (again depending on the mediums we use) people claim it's proof that Sansa has turned full evil, doesn't care about family ( people forget the snow castle scene? ) or wants to kill her cousin Robyn etc. because she lied about LF; but again ( depending on the medium) she is betrayed and manipulated by Lysa and LF and in each case though the wordings are different Sansa discovers that her Aunt has killed and lied for LF, her Aunt threatens Sansa life with her trying to throw her out the moon door, LF kills Lysa ( and in book pins it on a person who attempted to rape Sansa) and again slight changes in book and show  in book she's manipulated to lie, in show it's her choice  but in each case she has good reasons ( at least in her mind ) in book she doesn't trust the Vale Lords and she tells us they gave no support for her brother, why would they support her, in show when LF asked her why, she answered; if they had killed you what would they do with me? and his reply was, "I don't know" and hers was "neither do I" . Back in her mind she has knowledge, but she has no proof to pin it yet, and there is more against her ( LF manipulations) that may be hard to prove that she is innocent.

We see Sansa and company down from the Vale and Robyn in the hands of Lord Royce and from here totally off book.

Season 5 we see Sansa figuring things out, giving Brienne warnings that Brienne and Pod ( though Sansa didn't know he was there ) are in trouble and she should leave, Balelish still leading Sansa on that a marriage proposal was for him and not her until they  were overlooking Mote Calin and Sansa refusal and subsequent giving in; and despite what the show runners say was a choice, it really wasn't. As stated in show and books many times over vows, choices, etc under duress or any other way forced isn't a valid one, I can reasonably  think that if Sansa refused, LF would do as he say turn back the horses (HE did not say return to the Vale) return to the inn and have the Bolton's get Sansa there.

Now we see Sansa stare down the Boltons and even arguing that they are not the rightful owners of Winterfell ( and it can be argued if that was wise or not ) which under the circumstances is understandable but it marks the end of her hiding who she is A STARK of WINTERFELL, we see her in the crypts paying homage to her ancestors the talk with LF where she noticed he's dressed for travel, LF possible knowledge of some history between Lyanna and Rhegar, his thoughts how Sansa will be saved and his answer when Sansa questioned what if his plan doesn't work out and (despite what the show runners stated that LF actually didn't know about Ramsey) his make the boy hers, something Sansa said she didn't know how to do that.

If we go by what the show runners absolutely stand by, and how season 5 episode 6 turned out the only basis for this is to make LF her solid enemy added to what else she knows.

Now from the end of season 5 and Season 6 we see the results of Ramsey on Sansa, on Theon, Sansa using words on Theon that LF used on her ( your Sansa Stark.../your Theon Greyjoy....)she learned and understood how LF manipulated her and she is trying to do the same to Theon, the difference is Ramsey is a sadistic nut case and Theon is very far gone, yet we see when Theon returns she changes tactics and she eventually learns her brothers are alive, before that she is called for by Ramsey and she picked up a corkscrew, and learns that Jon is the LC of the Nightswatch, then Ramsey shows her the old woman who greeted her as Lady Stark and the North Remembers, who let her know she has friends beyond the gates of Winterfell, she cried not just for herself, but I tend to think for the old woman too, this made her double down and changed tactics with Theon as stated above.

They escape and subsequently saved by Brienne and Pod only to have people say she didn't help herself, or she didn't fight back when the Boltons caught up with them, or she's stupid because she flubbed 5 words of a vow ( I want to remind those people she started that vow and ended that vow on her own she just forgot a part in the middle) that she did not expect to give specially after running from a posse and dogs, traversing  a fast running frigidly cold river, no food, wet clothing etc. I want to see those people go through what Sansa did and recite their countries national anthems, hell 99% of us can't recite them in their entirety sober and warmed on a sunny day.

She smiles and happy to hear that Arya is alive and at ease with Brienne telling her that the man was protecting her, she continues to show empathy for Theon, promises to vouch and protect him at the wall when they meet Jon etc.

At the wall she and Jon meet; nothing there is faked as far as I saw; it was all true happy emotions. We don't get to see each other's reaction to the others stories so we have to interpret for ourselves what went on so I can see Sansa not fully believe the Jon and the re risen scene until she actually sees WunWun and maybe Jon's scars, Jon has no doubts about Sansa I'm sure and will protect her as best he can yet, Jon is very bad at picking up on others emotions, his NW brothers, Yigrette, Ollie etc those are people who tried to kill him because he did not pickup on the true feelings they were showing him, Jon was looking at one thing only (WW threat ) and not totally explaining or seeing what they needed.

Now we come to the part of what they will do, where will they go, Jon doesn't want to fight anymore and this is understandable he died and he was brought back, he's scared as hell he knows just what Tyrion has always said DEATH IS FINIAL is true and he wants to retire to a quiet place ( don't we all), Sansa on the other hand has been beaten, raped, tortured, mentally abused, etc. for 6 years and she wants to retire too, but she wants to go behind the walls of Winterfell, she feels safe there, stronger too, she has also learned better than Jon how to read people and political landscape (though she is naive with regards to the North being in the South so long) and when she tells Jon they have to fight for THEIR HOME and ARYA's,BRAN and RICKON she was being truthful and knowledgeable she knows damn well that none of the male Starks would be allowed to live and her and Arya would be used to gain Winterfell and the North , she wasn't manipulating him, or goading him she was telling him the hard truths ( those words are used a lot ).

We see an opening scene where Sansa is stitching leather she's making Jon a new outfit and she gets a letter from LF, she takes Brienne with her and faces LF, she doesn't want his help, she doesn't trust him and she's got 6 years of reasons not too, but she doesn't have Brienne kill him and it could be because when all is said and done she is away from KL, she's alive and away from him and she feels safe ( but she still doesn't know of his involvement with Cersei at KL and putting Sansa's head on Winterfell's wall, or his betrayal to Ned ) she also doesn't want him anywhere near her family especially her brothers because she knows just as she knows why Ramsey is a danger LF will arrange for some deaths, her brothers are an impediment to his plans. Sansa is correct when she said to him your either a fool or my enemy as she recounted what happened to her but instead of having Brienne kill him she tells him to get out of her life and never see her again, we can see this as her being honorable or foolish; sure as hell no hate or evil intentions on her part.

Littlefinger then drops the Blackfish line and we see Sansa take it in then  we see them eating and the arrival of the Pink Letter, Jon going back into denial and Sansa forcing the issue especially when they learn that Rickon is a prisoner, we also see her lie to Jon on how she learned about the Blackfish technically she is not under any reason to inform Jon that she met LF at MT or that she repudiated him and she may see the lie as a way to keep LF from her family and Jon as he is a direct danger to LF plan. We get a view of Brienne calling out Sansa on the lie, and a look on Sansa's face is one of regret even being sorry for the lie, not one of some kind of master plan on deceiving Jon, I think it's more she doesn't trust his entourage, hell Brienne doesn't trust them either, Sansa task Brienne to talk to the Blackfish and ask for his aid, just from what I know from season five and six I didn't need to know what was said in the letter to her uncle, I know from what I see and read she ask his help to restore House Stark, not help Me get My house back .

We then get the travel to other houses and both Jon and Sansa fail badly Sansa more because she has been away from the North for ~ six years and she doesn't know the full extent of how Robb's actions affected the other houses; and Jon because I believe he's not good at talking with females especially ladies in power as Lady Mormont , luckily they have Davos and he gets the Mormonts on their side, they then try house Glover and Sansa still naive thinks that the other house have to back her house because honor compels them to and because she believes in her father when he told her the north is different, and just like Davos told her when she basically stated them at Castle Black, Lord Glover reminded her that as of now House Stark is dead and no one will die for a war that is lost, or for a lord who put his interest over his subjects.

Now we get the first real scene where Sansa is demanding that they go for more men and Jon demanding they will fight with what they have, cut to Sansa and the letter, asking for the Vale, she words the phrase properly rewarded ambiguously .

Now do I think Sansa is obligated to tell Jon about the letter? no, not yet, when?

If and when she got a reply, and if she didn't trust Tormond and Davos she could of told Jon when they left the tent, let him know she asked for help and no reply came, she could offer to find them,  though Jon would consider that dangerous  and not let her go.

On the morning of the parlay when Jon tried to goad Ramsey and Sansa ask for proof that he has Rickon and Lord Umber threw Shaggydogs head on the ground; I think at this point three thoughts hit Sansa, 1. Your going to die tomorrow Lord Bolton; sleep well.

2. Rickon is already dead in Winterfell, and 3. she hasn't heard from LF ( and I think it's all in keeping with his plan of attrition ) and she will need to make a decision to go get him, it's between the time she left the parlay and the war strategy that she should have told Jon of a possibility of the Vale, no guarantee, only hope; and I agree Jon kept asking and she could have mentioned the letter but I think she still had valid reasons in her mind on why she didn't.

I also think Jon's weakness to see, convey emotions and to look only at a situation one way played a part, most people pick up on when a person stress over and over on one thing, like we need more men over and over, most people close to those who are overly stressed could pick up the signs of someone holding back; instead of asking what would they  do a lot of people would pick up on the fact that that person has something they're hiding and want to let it out, I don't think Jon saw that, doesn't totally excuse Sansa from telling Jon the possibility of men, but if he picked up on it he could have tried to draw it out instead of asking what would she do.

As far as Jon's strategy, if he had a guarantee that they were coming he could have incorporated them in, I'm not sure it cut down on deaths as I'm sure LF would have made sure to take his time to get there at the last minute. We know also that they got Brienne's letter and the BF couldn't help them because Jon stated it in the tent.

I think after the argument and seeing that Jon didn't hear her or understand her, that she felt she had to GO get LF, it could not have been real close because it looks like it was many hours between the argument and when the Vale showed up.

As far as Sansa giving up on saving Rickon, as I said, I think she thought Rickon was already physically dead, and never thought that he bring him on the battle field to goad Jon, she knew Ramsey do something she didn't know what.

As far as Sansa enjoying the kill, I think that smile was confirmation that Ramsey has disappeared, and she will have no more thoughts of him, also notice the parallel here of Sansa not looking away from Ramsey's death and Bran being told by Jon not to look away in season one.

Also about that scene it looks like those kennels were already opened, I don't think Jon opened them but I do wonder if Ramsey did in anticipation of a victory.

Sansa has always kept her emotions in check ( Books more then Show ) it's a protective mechanism, I think it was the same for Rickon, if she dwells on it she will loose her control in front of  the troops and Jon, and come off as weak, she will let them out behind closed doors just like in the books and like in the show when her mother and brother were killed.

As far as wanting Jon dead and falling for LF; I don't see that happening nothing in episode 10 shows that.

We get the White Raven, we get Jon and Sansa on the battlement of Winterfell with the symbolic separation of the two donating conflict ahead ( anyone who thought this was going to be totally sweet isn't paying attention nor if people seeing this as Sansa turning evil) We see Sansa let Jon know she was wrong in not letting him know about the Vale ( yes it be nice to know her reason but tension needs to be created ) and to her Jon's a Stark and She is the Lady of Winterfell ,Winter is here, a nice moment calling back Ned's words finally being true.

We later see Sansa under the Heart Tree in the Gods Woods Baleish excusing himself for interrupting her prayers and Sansa saying she's through with all that, yet at the same time realizing she always had what she wanted at Winterfell even though it looked brighter and better on the other side of the kingdom ( just as today people dream of marrying kings, becoming a big star, or leader of a country ) you know just like you or me, our kids etc yet as far as I know no one call us or our kids evil or manipulative for wanting dreams, but somehow Sansa gets these arrows.

We see LF start his manipulation again and he starts telling Sansa HIS dreams and wants which seems to go beyond what Sansa thought and he attempts to kiss her and she shoots him down , a hand on the chest, pulling back of her head, words from her lips "a pretty dream" , a second try; word will get out I threw support for the North.... who should the north follow a true child of Ned Stark and Lady Catlyn .....or a bastard with no name; a second reply ( at this point I think Sansa would be wiser to keep it to her self ) You have given your support to other houses Lord Baleish ...... doesn't mean you won't do it again, Sansa leaves him alone in the Gods Woods, but she also knows he going to pit Jon against her on his bastard status ( WE can also see maybe Jon's Heritage from season 5 in the crypts) .

Final scene Yohn Royce is speaking sort of insulted that the wildlings were there, Lord Cerwyn saying the war is over lets go home, LF looking over the room ( at this point I think the book story in blending back in but the writers move it to WF ) he's looking for allies, we know from Cersei she is having birds sent to the North, we hear Lady Mormont scold the older lords, the North proclaiming Jon KITN, there are two / three  things here to notice : 1, Sansa is fine with Jon being named KITN it beat LF plan ( at least for now) 2 and 3. only time Sansa did not look happy was when Manderly gave credit to Jon for avenging the Red Wedding  this could be a stickler, but Jon up front and personal told her they are there because of her actions and why she is the Lady of Winterfell finally that last look; I don't know how people read that as Sansa agreeing with LF yeah your right I'm being screwed; that was a total look that went from a smile to a look of oh,oh he's pissed and we have a problem, his look wasn't one of I told you so, his look was of one that he made an incorrect assessment and Sansa picked a path he didn't expect.

I think we will see Sansa discovering someone bought by LF in the North and she will have to kill him, or turn him ( just like in the books ) and she will need to turn her cousin Robyn.

And anyone who wants to bring up what Sophie, or Liam, or Kit or B & W say later, yeah going to be conflict  it's already been set up but it's also smoke screening, there is nothing in the last scene that shows Sansa turning evil, if anything it's a war between LF and Sansa for Jon or a war between LF and Jon for Sansa; at this point I'm going with LF Vs Sansa. Sansa knows his plan, she knows he's a danger to her house, her family, especially Jon and Bran and I think she do anything to protect them even if it means tarnishing her name or even dying for them.

( Of course they may be correct, but GRRM hasn't told us yet )

Another thing, I'm an OPTIMIST by nature so of course it is reflected here.

Holy S this was long.

[roguetamlin]

If Tyrion or Arya died, it would be over for me. If they died stupidly I would stalk D+D and GRRM until their minds cleared and it all turned out to be a dream. Sam et family, Lyanna Mormont, Sansa, probably safe.

At this point characters I expect to die, but please let it be not stupid: Davos (I love Davos), Brienne, Jaime, Tormund. Anyone with a "Ser" or Lord in front of their names are doomed. Theon will probably die heroically. 

As I said upthread, I really hope they don't bring Gendry back just to kill him. 

Edited September 20, 2016 by roguetamlin
nit pick

[Eyes High]

2 hours ago, GrailKing said:

We see LF start his manipulation again and he starts telling Sansa HIS dreams and wants which seems to go beyond what Sansa thought and he attempts to kiss her and she shoots him down , a hand on the chest, pulling back of her head, words from her lips "a pretty dream" , a second try; word will get out I threw support for the North.... who should the north follow a true child of Ned Stark and Lady Catlyn .....or a bastard with no name; a second reply ( at this point I think Sansa would be wiser to keep it to her self ) You have given your support to other houses Lord Baleish ...... doesn't mean you won't do it again, Sansa leaves him alone in the Gods Woods, but she also knows he going to pit Jon against her on his bastard status ( WE can also see maybe Jon's Heritage from season 5 in the crypts) .

(...)only time Sansa did not look happy was when Manderly gave credit to Jon for avenging the Red Wedding 

(...) finally that last look; I don't know how people read that as Sansa agreeing with LF yeah your right I'm being screwed; that was a total look that went from a smile to a look of oh,oh he's pissed and we have a problem, his look wasn't one of I told you so, his look was of one that he made an incorrect assessment and Sansa picked a path he didn't expect.

Sansa doesn't call LF's vision a "pretty dream"; she calls it a "pretty picture," and her tone is not contemptuous, but wistful. Furthermore, in that scene, LF gets the last word: urging Sansa that she needs to look to the future, that she's the future of House Stark, and that she should lead and not Jon. Her smile disappears and she considers his words, which ties in directly to her reaction when his warning about Jon surpassing her proves prophetic.

As for Sansa's looks during the KITN scene, I don't think the scene supports your interpretation. It's true Sansa is smiling when Lyanna Mormont starts in on her spiel about knowing no king but the king in the North, whose name is Stark. However, the precise moment Lyanna says "I don't care if he's a bastard," meaning that she is talking about Jon and not Sansa, Sansa's smile instantly disappears. She doesn't smile during Lord Manderly's spiel, nor Lord Glover's, and she certainly doesn't smile when the crowd jumps to their feet to acclaim Jon. Her smile doesn't reappear, in fact, until Jon looks to Sansa for a smile of approval of his being named ruler ahead of her, and it fades when she meets LF's look. A close viewing of that scene suggests that Sansa is very displeased by this turn of events, but that no one notices except Littlefinger, whose knowing look catches her out. Furthermore, the official HBO recap indicates that Sansa's smile is forced. Moreover, the backing track's triumphant theme fades and ends on an ominous note, suggesting that the fact of Sansa's displeasure is also ominous.

Quote

And anyone who wants to bring up what Sophie, or Liam, or Kit or B & W say later, yeah going to be conflict  it's already been set up but it's also smoke screening, there is nothing in the last scene that shows Sansa turning evil

Sansa doesn't need to "turn evil" for her jealousy and resentment of Jon and refusal to get rid of LF to cause a fuckton of trouble. Merely letting LF stick around and get in her head because he's the only one who supports her over Jon could unleash some truly catastrophic consequences. All LF has ever needed to wreak havoc is the trust or at least the suspension of doubt of people who should know better. Ned didn't need to "turn evil" for his reliance on LF's advice to blow up in his face.

Besides, LF, even the lobotomized TV LF, is not stupid when it comes to manipulating Sansa. He knows that the angle to take in light of Jon's ascension is not "You know Jon, the half-brother you claim to love and see as a Stark? You should totally murder him." He would instead appeal to her ambition in a way that wouldn't on its face appear to clash directly with Jon, and would appear perfectly reasonable to Sansa but not Jon, and would go from there.

Quote

at this point I'm going with LF Vs Sansa.

Where's the conflict if Sansa definitively sides with Jon against LF and refuses to hear one more word from LF? That would be over in precisely one episode. LF's only hope in staying in the North to cause trouble is his "in" with Sansa. If she sides with Jon over LF, LF will have nowhere to go in the North.

The writers have gone to some trouble to show that LF still has a powerful hold on Sansa (they've even said as much) and that he still influences her actions and plants doubt in her mind about Jon. If you were correct about the conflict being LF vs. Sansa, there would be no reason for that.

Quote

Sansa knows his plan, she knows he's a danger to her house, her family

When has Sansa ever cared about "her house" or "her family" at the expense of her own interests? How about never? Sansa has always put herself first over her family in both the books and the show, often resulting in disastrous consequences. (GRRM seemed to consider that Sansa's dubious loyalty to her family was her defining character trait in the 1993 outline.) Whether or not this is a good thing is another discussion--Sansa's "selfishness" may well be the reason she's alive--but the fact remains. If that tendency to value her own interests over her family makes her "evil," which to me is a massive stretch, well, that means she's always been evil, because she's always been that way.

If TV Sansa believes LF is useful to her and would never harm her, she will keep him around, no matter the danger to the people around her, even her family. If TV LF being a threat to her family mattered to her more than her own personal goals, she would have immediately disclosed LF's letter to Jon. She didn't. TV Sansa only kicked LF to the curb (temporarily, as it turns out) not because he was a bad dude and a clear threat to Jon, but because she believed he had either deliberately or recklessly harmed her with the Ramsay scheme.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Eyes High

[anamika]

Quote

Turner’s character Sansa found herself finally reunited with her bastard brother Jon Snow near the end of Season 6 and together they defeated Ramsay Bolton and reclaimed Winterfell, the home of the Starks. The actress said viewers should be on their toes when it comes to her character in Season 7.

“You don’t really know what’s going on with her this season,” she said. “We’re trying to figure out where her loyalties lie and you’re wondering if she is going to pull through and be a true Stark or not.”

http://variety.com/2016/tv/news/game-of-thrones-season-7-spoilers-dead-characters-season-8-ending-1201865103/

Great! More bad writing. We did not really know what was going on with her last season as well. We will get more of Sansa doing shady stuff and giving  vague looks and then David and Dan in the interviews talking about how Jon should have really asked for her opinion etc and then 10 pages of discussion on here about what Sansa's motives really were :)

Wish they asked Kit Harington a few questions about this season.

Quote

Nikolaj Coster-Waldau, who plays Jaime Lannister, said to expect more characters that haven’t spent much time together, like Sansa and Jon, to meet up in the final two seasons.

“We started seeing it in Season 6; characters that met in the first episode of Season 1 are now meeting again and you’re going to see that start happening more,” he said.

Characters who interacted in episode one - Jon-Arya-Bran, Jon - Tyrion, Jon-Benjen, Jon- Theon, Bran-Theon, Sansa -Arya.  I can't think of anyone else since most other characters from episode one are dead.

Edited September 21, 2016 by anamika

[SeanC]

34 minutes ago, anamika said:

Characters who interacted in episode one - Jon-Arya-Bran, Jon - Tyrion, Jon-Benjen, Jon- Theon, Bran-Theon, Sansa -Arya.  I can't think of anyone else since most other characters from episode one are dead.

Tyrion/Jaime (not separated for nearly as long, granted, but 2+ seasons at this point) and Sansa/Cersei (exceedingly unlikely, in my view, but they did interact in 101)

[anamika]

3 hours ago, SeanC said:

Tyrion/Jaime (not separated for nearly as long, granted, but 2+ seasons at this point) and Sansa/Cersei (exceedingly unlikely, in my view, but they did interact in 101)

I am assuming that he means characters who shared scenes in episode one of the show and have not met since then or characters who hardly interacted with each other - like Jon and Sansa. Which would eliminate Tyrion/Jaime and Sansa/Cersei since they have interacted a lot and last shared scenes in early season 4 for the purple wedding.  I think Jon/Sansa meeting up with Bran is definitely happening early next season.

[Eyes High]

7 hours ago, anamika said:

http://variety.com/2016/tv/news/game-of-thrones-season-7-spoilers-dead-characters-season-8-ending-1201865103/

Great! More bad writing. .

Well, on the bright side it will provide plenty of fodder for discussion.

6 hours ago, SeanC said:

Tyrion/Jaime (not separated for nearly as long, granted, but 2+ seasons at this point) and Sansa/Cersei (exceedingly unlikely, in my view, but they did interact in 101)

As anamika pointed out, Tyrion/Jaime and Sansa/Cersei have shared scenes since Episode 1, but then again, so have Bran/Theon (Season 1 and 2), Sansa/Arya (in Season 1), Jon/Benjen (Season 1), Jon/Tyrion (Season 1), etc.

I saw a crazy 4chan rumour that the reason Sophie's hair remains blonde is that Cersei kidnaps Sansa and in her insanity mistakes Sansa for Myrcella, forcing Sansa to dye her hair and holding her prisoner in KL, prompting Jon to join forces with Dany to come to her rescue. No, I am not making this up.

In all seriousness, the show dropped enough hints about Cersei's hatred of and desire for revenge against Sansa in Season 6 that something is going to come of it. Not a kidnapping and forced dye job scenario, but something.

2 hours ago, anamika said:

I am assuming that he means characters who shared scenes in episode one of the show and have not met since then or characters who hardly interacted with each other - like Jon and Sansa. Which would eliminate Tyrion/Jaime and Sansa/Cersei since they have interacted a lot and last shared scenes in early season 4 for the purple wedding.  I think Jon/Sansa meeting up with Bran is definitely happening early next season.

It sure sounds like a Jon/Sansa/Bran meeting. Jon/Arya would also qualify, though. Jon/Theon? Jon/Jaime? Tyrion/Arya? Bran/Arya?

Edited September 21, 2016 by Eyes High

[Advance35]

I really really want a Tyrion/Sansa meeting before it's all over.   While I loved all of the characters Kings Landing interactions I always had a soft spot for the Tyrion/Sansa scenes.   PD is just so good.    A Tyrion/Sansa/Littlefinger scene would be even better.   With the show winding down and shifting focus to Orcs *cough* I mean White Walkers, Dragons and Neverending story like magic, I am really going to miss the times of intrigue and ambiguous motives that ruled the show during seasons 1-4.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, Advance35 said:

I really really want a Tyrion/Sansa meeting before it's all over.  

As I see it, a Tyrion/Sansa meeting is inevitable, since Team Jon and Team Dany are likely to merge or at the very least meet, provided that Tyrion and Sansa 1) remain on Team Dany and Team Jon, respectively (not a sure thing with Sansa) and more importantly 2) stay alive until that can happen (also not a sure thing with Sansa). I personally don't think Sansa's going to live long enough for that to happen, but we'll see.

WOTW reports that Thoros is back for Season 7 with a bigger role than he had in Season 6. GOT casting is also looking for a Fierce Warrior, probably a Dothraki from the sounds of it, who is a significant presence over several episodes but who has few lines.

Edited September 21, 2016 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Jon/Jaime? Tyrion/Arya? Bran/Arya?

Tyrion and Arya have never been in a scene together, actually, not even using the loose "both of them stood in the courtyard together" standard applied to Sansa/Theon and Jon/Sansa -- and, for that matter, to Bran and both his sisters (one thing show inadvertently emphasizes is how little Stark family interaction there is before the plot sends them careening off in different directions; in the books GRRM, to some extent, uses memories, etc. to fill in the gap, but the show doesn't do that).

It's kind of interesting, in that that's really the one part of GRRM's pitch letter that really has no counterpart in the series whatsoever.

Edited September 21, 2016 by SeanC

[anamika]

39 minutes ago, SeanC said:

 Tyrion and Arya have never been in a scene together, actually, not even using the loose "both of them stood in the courtyard together" standard applied to Sansa/Theon and Jon/Sansa -- and, for that matter, to Bran and both his sisters (one thing show inadvertently emphasizes is how little Stark family interaction there is before the plot sends them careening off in different directions; in the books GRRM, to some extent, uses memories, etc. to fill in the gap, but the show doesn't do that).

Bran and Arya do sort of interact in episode one when Arya shoots the arrow into the target and Bran chases her around the courtyard, while Robb, Jon and Rickon laugh at them. That was our introduction to the Starks.

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

It sure sounds like a Jon/Sansa/Bran meeting. Jon/Arya would also qualify, though. Jon/Theon? Jon/Jaime? Tyrion/Arya? Bran/Arya?

I think both Jon and Dany are set to have some interesting interactions next season considering both characters have been isolated from the KL plot since almost the pilot episode and both characters are now entering the political arena of Westeros as King and Queen. Dany meeting anyone is going to be awesome and Jon meeting Arya, Bran, Tyrion, Jaime, Theon etc. again will be interesting to watch with all the new dynamics in play.

Edited September 21, 2016 by anamika

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

Sansa doesn't call LF's vision a "pretty dream"; she calls it a "pretty picture," and her tone is not contemptuous, but wistful. Furthermore, in that scene, LF gets the last word: urging Sansa that she needs to look to the future, that she's the future of House Stark, and that she should lead and not Jon. Her smile disappears and she considers his words, which ties in directly to her reaction when his warning about Jon surpassing her proves prophetic.

As for Sansa's looks during the KITN scene, I don't think the scene supports your interpretation. It's true Sansa is smiling when Lyanna Mormont starts in on her spiel about knowing no king but the king in the North, whose name is Stark. However, the precise moment Lyanna says "I don't care if he's a bastard," meaning that she is talking about Jon and not Sansa, Sansa's smile instantly disappears. She doesn't smile during Lord Manderly's spiel, nor Lord Glover's, and she certainly doesn't smile when the crowd jumps to their feet to acclaim Jon. Her smile doesn't reappear, in fact, until Jon looks to Sansa for a smile of approval of his being named ruler ahead of her, and it fades when she meets LF's look. A close viewing of that scene suggests that Sansa is very displeased by this turn of events, but that no one notices except Littlefinger, whose knowing look catches her out. Furthermore, the official HBO recap indicates that Sansa's smile is forced. Moreover, the backing track's triumphant theme fades and ends on an ominous note, suggesting that the fact of Sansa's displeasure is also ominous.

Sansa doesn't need to "turn evil" for her jealousy and resentment of Jon and refusal to get rid of LF to cause a fuckton of trouble. Merely letting LF stick around and get in her head because he's the only one who supports her over Jon could unleash some truly catastrophic consequences. All LF has ever needed to wreak havoc is the trust or at least the suspension of doubt of people who should know better.

Besides, LF, even the lobotomized TV LF, is not stupid when it comes to manipulating Sansa. He knows that the angle to take in light of Jon's ascension is not "You know Jon, the half-brother you claim to love and see as a Stark? You should totally murder him." He would instead appeal to her ambition in a way that wouldn't on its face appear to clash directly with Jon, and would appear perfectly reasonable to Sansa but not Jon, and would go from there.

Where's the conflict if Sansa definitively sides with Jon against LF and refuses to hear one more word from LF? That would be over in precisely one episode. LF's only hope in staying in the North to cause trouble is his "in" with Sansa. If she sides with Jon over LF, LF will have nowhere to go in the North.

When has Sansa ever cared about "her house" or "her family" at the expense of her own interests? How about never? Sansa has always put herself first over her family in both the books and the show, often resulting in disastrous consequences. (GRRM seemed to consider that Sansa's dubious loyalty to her family was her defining character trait in the 1993 outline.) Whether or not this is a good thing is another discussion, but the fact remains. If that tendency to value her own interests over her family makes her "evil," well, that means she's always been evil, because she's always been that way.

If TV Sansa believes LF is useful to her, she will keep him around, no matter the danger to the people around her, even her family. If TV LF being a threat to her family mattered to her more than her own personal goals, she would have immediately disclosed LF's letter to Jon. She didn't. Sansa only kicked LF to the curb (temporarily, as it turns out) not because he was a bad dude and a threat to Jon, but because she believed he had either deliberately or recklessly harmed her with the Ramsay scheme.

Sansa doesn't call LF's vision a "pretty dream"; she calls it a "pretty picture," :Are we nit picking here? a pretty dream is a pretty picture .

her tone is not contemptuous, but wistful. : I never said what her tone was, wistful or not this isn't Sansa season 1, she wants to stay up North, she doesn't want the throne no Stark does. Her tone as far as LF declaration; is blunt, one of pure truth and calling him on it; people can take her tone any way they want. Sansa does take his words in and some people can take it as she  is seeing him with a point ( many including myself feel Sansa is the Stark that house needs) but some wish to see it only as her falling for it, just to back stab Jon or let LF kill him. I look at it and see her finding out how he plans to remove Jon. Sansa may not have believed Jon's resurrection when she first was told, but seeing his scars, and a giant told in stories from Old Nan and Ned probably convinced her of Jon's higher purpose, if she let LF do what he plans WF wouldn't have a chance to survive.

As far as Ned Stark's blood, well it's on in front of me and Sansa still has a smile on her face, and a look of contentment, it's only when Manderly credits Jon for avenging the Red Wedding does the smile falls and returns after Glover and the North proclaim Jon KITN ( I did say this part could be a stickler ) her smile returns and it may be forced but she is contented until her eyes meet LF and it changes to concern, not a look of yes I've been screwed over, and LF is looking like he's been screwed over, you can interpret that scene as you like so can others, but Sansa doesn't look displeased to me and when she looks at LF she looks worried of what he'll do; and we can use the sound track to convey what I stated; in my view .

People think the conflict will be Jon and Sansa and there will be, but the main conflict will be between LF and Sansa, many think Sansa will betray Jon and it's possible, I tend to think all her plans to avoid or out maneuver LF is to protect Jon's back, we have ~ 15 hours to go we'll have to wait.

As far as your bringing up Sansa not caring for family or just herself, where was dreaming of bright lights and grass is greener considered a crime in life? we all be guilty, for 11 years she is brought up and trained for a marriage to a great lord that will benefit her house and the King offered and she pushed for it ( along with Cat in the books ), did you forget about, snow ball fights at WF, or when Robb and Jon came out covered with flour and scared the hell out of her, lying for Arya not having breakfast because they raided the kitchen earlier, teaching Jon how to dance or complimenting girls, attempt to kill Joffry for what he did, her tears for her family in show learning Arya escaped KL, etc. she told her father the truth and was caught off guard a day or two later when she was called before the King and she lied by saying she didn't see, and her punishment was Ned killing Lady, which the show explained with Ned telling Arya why Sansa lied; now people tend to forget Sansa also proved her skills at Darry when she defused the tension between Joffry and Renly and Illyn Payne, and both Joffry and Arya failed to listen to Sansa, when Joffry dismisses the Hound before their ride to the lake, and of course when Joffry acts dickish to Mycah and Arya jumps in;  honorable but it only fan the flame as Joffry was on liquid courage overdose and Mycah eventually lost his life as Cersei sent the Hound to kill the boy, and I think Sansa when in front of the King is distrustful and fearful of Robert ( she seen how he was at the feast in WF ) she also knows hitting a Prince is punishable so she tells the truth her sister gets harmed; so she states she didn't see. Of course we also don't know what went on off book after she spoke with her father, but Ned didn't confront her on her lie and as I said in the show they explained it to Arya.

Sansa begs for Ned's life and Joffry betrayed her, and Sansa doesn't know what went on in the court with LF, the Hound and Janos Slynt, and in book we know she ran to the Queen against her father's orders and was taken prisoner along with Jeyne Poole but it wasn't malicious ahw wanted to say good bye but she divulged her fathers time line to Cersei by going to her thus removing the last ( and in my opinion, a small ) chance of her and Ned's house hold leaving KL.

Ned's death is on Ned, Joffry and possibly LF, LF is the main cause of what happens as the story opens, but we don't know if he got into joffry's ear or Joffry was being dickish on his own.

She thinks of her family after the bloodshed is depressed in book she thinks of them and puts it back in her mind as the pain is to great, she builds Winterfell in the snow, she lets us know who she is in her thoughts Sansa Stark daughter of Lord Eddard and Lady Catlyn the blood of Winterfell in show they gave that line to LF everything we see in book and show is Sansa remembering who she is and fighting for her name.

Dubious means: questionable, secretive of unknown intent, from outward appearances by individual characters Sansa could look uncaring or shady from what we see in book and in her actions towards people she's not evil or malicious, and is geared toward getting her out of KL and home. When GRRM created his family he said they were to clean sorta of boring and real families aren't like that, he needed conflict and sibling strife, not as a defining trait of her character, if that was so he would not have stated how surprised he was of the Sansa hate, so he created an older child with dreams beyond home- just like real people today .

As far as Sansa using LF  to get what she wants or manipulating him I think it's how GRRM wants her, her intentions are unknown to us but half feel it's against her family and half thinks it's in favor of her family a great character not one dimensional at all.

GRRM said it best here:

I think she's doing for her and family, others may think other wise.

[Cherpumple]

12 hours ago, anamika said:

Great! More bad writing. We did not really know what was going on with her last season as well. We will get more of Sansa doing shady stuff and giving  vague looks and then David and Dan in the interviews talking about how Jon should have really asked for her opinion etc and then 10 pages of discussion on here about what Sansa's motives really were :)

Ugh, I know. I'm already bracing myself for more discussions similar to the "why didn't Sana tell Jon about the Vale army?" plot point, filled with thoughtful and logical analysis by the fans, only to have the situations hastily and nonsensically resolved on the actual show. I think I just need to give up expecting Sansa's storyline on the show to be satisfying in anyway. And I actually feel bad for Sophie Turner. IMHO she's not a very strong actress, but D&D really seem to have made her job as difficult as possible by making her character arc so confusing and vague.

If I may input my own $.02, I never bought into the theory that Sansa was destined to become a master game player. This story doesn't need another ambitious schemer, and I would rather see her play a different role. In particular, I would love for her to play the role of peace-maker. I think her adherence to courtesies, her gentle nature (in the book, at least), and her connections to several different houses through birth, marriage, or circumstance would make her well-suited to this task. In a way, her perceived "dubious loyalty" to House Stark (which I don't agree with, btw) could even work in her favor, since she wouldn't automatically be seen as only working for the benefit of the Starks. Let's face it- things are going to get worse before they get better, and in the aftermath of whatever shitstorms are on the way, there are going to be a lot of wounds to heal that will require the attention of more than just a warrior/conqueror. There will definitely be a need for genuine reconciliation between whoever is left standing, and Sansa could be really good at facilitating it. Unfortunately, I sincerely doubt that her story will actually go this way, but it would be a nice path for her.

In other storylines, the medieval history nerd in me REALLY wants Cersei to give an official argument to validate her seizure of the Iron Throne, aside from just "I wanted it, and who's going to stop me?" Several real late medieval kings who claimed their kingship through unorthodox means (Henry IV usurping Richard II, Henry V establishing a dual English-French monarchy, Henry VII defeating Richard III) had teams of lawyers create very long detailed justifications for their actions that needed to be approved by parliament or ecclesiastical courts, and the mental and legal gymnastics they used to make these arguments are quite funny and ridiculous at times. I would love to see Cersei try something similar, to convince other houses to support her reign. But I doubt I'll get my wish. D&D don't really go in for that kind of nuance. I'm sure it will just be a "might makes right" handwaving of the fact that she has no real claim to the throne by any known law or precedent of Westeros. Oh well.

[GrailKing]

I don't think Cersei is the kind of person who can come up with anything close to a logical scheme for ascending the throne, since a child she has been shown to be reprehensible and very entitled, and as a grown up less than tactically proficient, she runs on fear and retibution and hurt innocent people to get what she wants.

As far as Sansa she at least is shown that she has empathy and can get most people to listen and even feel for her, Tyrion seen it at Joff's wedding, we see it at the Battle of Blackwater, and even in the show though they put her in a nonsensical position, she has understanding of situations, and caring for others.

I've seen her as either a Diplomat or as a Stark version of QOT doing what is needed to protect house,family and the North; but we will have to wait and see.

Edited September 21, 2016 by GrailKing

[Chris24601]

Personally, I'm hoping the conflict between Jon and Sansa next season is that Sansa doesn't trust Littlefinger and wants him gone while Jon feels they need Littlefinger because of his control of the Vale armies which will be needed for the war with the White Walkers. That feels like a much more plausible divide for a conflict to me than some "Sansa is greedy for power" nonsense. It plays to both their inherent weaknesses... Sansa's mistrustfulness and desire for security and Jon's desire for any allies he can get and being generally too trusting... without making either one the bad guy (that's reserved for Littlefinger).

Such a scenario would then give us scenes of Jon interacting with Littlefinger (and possibly Lord Royce and Robin) and Littlefinger trying to get Jon to trust him while Sansa is trying to get Davos and Tormund (i.e. people she didn't fully trust last season, but who Jon trusts implicitly) on her side against Littlefinger. Meanwhile, Littlefinger can be working behind the scenes to get Lord Cerwyn (the whiny one who wanted to go home and still looked uncertain even as other lords started declaring for Jon) and a few other Northern Lords to push against 'The Bastard King' in favor of trueborn Sansa as part of setting up a no-win scenario to get what he wants.

It also sets up nicely several reactions and reverses that a narrative needs. Ex. Sansa wins over Tormund to her cause, but then Littlefinger convinces Jon that Tormund and the Free Folk should head to the Wall with the Vale armies because the Free Folk are more familiar with the terrain than his men. Or she wins over Davos, but then Littlefinger brings news of Dany's forces and suggests sending the King's most trusted advisor to treat with Dany for more troops for the fight. Each time a reasonable suggestion with the side-effect of separating Jon from his most trusted advisors, undermining Sansa's efforts to convince Jon of the danger and making it easier for his conspiracy with the Northern Lords to unseat Jon and put Sansa on the throne (and with Jon out of the way and since she's a girl in time of war and he is her uncle by marriage that would make Littlefinger de facto head of the household).

All the narrative would need then is a few delays to keep Bran from showing up to spoil Littlefinger's plans and that's pretty easily accomplished. First, needing to rid himself of the Night King's mark before passing the Wall and Dolorous Edd wanting to debrief Bran on what he's learned would be good for 2-3 episodes right there. Throw in a skipped episode for travel from the Wall to Winterfell and you'd be able to reasonably keep Bran from arriving until episode five at least pretty easily.

Throw in a few subplots for Brienne/Pod, Tormund, Davos and Lady Mormont (I'd love to see her and Robin interact) and that's basically enough content for the entire Northern arc next season right there.

Edited September 21, 2016 by Chris24601

[Eyes High]

4 hours ago, SeanC said:

It's kind of interesting, in that that's really the one part of GRRM's pitch letter that really has no counterpart in the series whatsoever.

Reading between the lines of GRRM talking about how the main five (including Tyrion) would grow from childhood to adulthood and the original plotlines of Arya falling passionately in love with her brother and Sansa marrying Joffrey and bearing his child, it seems as if GRRM made the decision at some point between the pitch letter and AGOT to deage Arya and Sansa by a few years and to age up Tyrion significantly compared to the other mains. Maybe the planned Tyrion/Arya unrequited crush and the Jon/Arya/Tyrion love triangle were casualties of that decision. Portions of Outline Tyrion's storyline also seem to have been farmed out to Theon (burning Winterfell) or Ramsay (deadly rivalry spurred by Arya).

2 hours ago, GrailKing said:

I never said what her tone was, wistful or not (...) [1]

As far as Ned Stark's blood, well it's on in front of me and Sansa still has a smile on her face, and a look of contentment (...) [2]

I tend to think all her plans to avoid or out maneuver LF is to protect Jon's back, we have ~ 15 hours to go we'll have to wait. [3]

As far as your bringing up Sansa not caring for family or just herself (...) [4]

Ned's death is on Ned, Joffry and possibly LF, (...) [5]

When GRRM created his family he said they were to clean sorta of boring and real families aren't like that, he needed conflict and sibling strife, not as a defining trait of her character (...) [6]

1. Tone is important for context, so it's useless to rely only on what Sansa said for the complete picture of what was going on in the Sansa/LF scene, just as it's useless to say "Sansa smiled at Jon when he looked at her, therefore she's totally happy with Jon being named KITN" without looking at what she's doing during the rest of the scene and the context of that smile.

2. I rewatched it. No smile after "I don't care after he's a bastard" and Sansa fails to smile again until Jon looks at her for approval.

3. Sansa has done fuck-all to protect Jon from LF, and since when does she care about Jon's safety when it comes at the expense of her own goals? She put Jon's life in danger by withholding important information from him, because she apparently wanted all the credit for the victory (according to Sophie Turner at least). I mean, she could have a change of heart in Season 7, but her track record is not promising.

4. I didn't say that. I said that Sansa does not put her family ahead of her own interests. Season 6 did nothing to contradict that statement. Make no mistake: her quest to reclaim Winterfell was all about her goals.

5. According to GRRM, Sansa bears partial responsibility for her father's death. If you have a problem with that viewpoint, you should take it up with him, but he is writing the books with that opinion in mind.

6. GRRM makes a point of mentioning that Sansa is of "dubious loyalty" in the outline. That is pretty much the only thing he says about her character in terms of personality or background. I think saying that at that time he considered it a defining character trait, since he saw fit to mention it and since that trait seems to drive her plot (betraying her family and bitterly regretting it), is a fair assessment.

1 hour ago, Cherpumple said:

In other storylines, the medieval history nerd in me REALLY wants Cersei to give an official argument to validate her seizure of the Iron Throne, aside from just "I wanted it, and who's going to stop me?"

Isn't that how Robert Baratheon got the throne to begin with? Yes, he had Targ blood, but that blood didn't get him the throne: successfully waging war with the previous occupant did. Cersei even tells Ned that instead of holding the throne for Robert that he should have taken the throne for himself, despite knowing that there's not a drop of Targaryen blood in the entire Stark family tree (apart from Jon, of course, not that Cersei would know that). I'm guessing Cersei took her own advice.

Quote

Personally, I'm hoping the conflict between Jon and Sansa next season is that Sansa doesn't trust Littlefinger and wants him gone while Jon feels they need Littlefinger

If anything, Season 6 is pointing to the opposite scenario: Jon or his other advisors may want LF gone or will oppose him because Sansa has said that he is untrustworthy, and Sansa will dig her heels in because in light of the KITN acclamation, she once more appreciates LF as a useful support to her, someone (the only one, apparently) loyal to her and not Jon, and someone who effectively controls an army he will lend her in a pinch. Who is this "Sansa" who is so concerned about LF posing a threat to someone other than herself that she will sacrifice the presence of the only person who sticks up for her leadership potential over Jon's, the only person other than herself who is upset by Jon being acclaimed KITN ahead of her, and the only person who warned her--prophetically, as it turns about--about Jon surpassing her? That version of Sansa does not exist in the show.

D&D's comments about Season 7 point to Jon being plagued by "selfish individuals" and how he had better hope that he's not the only altruistic individual and Sophie's comments about Season 7 point to Sansa having murky, divided loyalties. To me, that points in the opposite direction from Sansa immediately opposing LF. Sansa may well come to side with Jon against LF in the end as many are hoping, maybe once one of LF's schemes blows up in her face again, but it would be the outcome of her arc and the culmination of what would likely be a protracted moral struggle where Sansa is torn between her family loyalties and her personal ambitions, not the starting point.

The theory that Sansa will immediately side against LF and will instead spend Season 7 trying to protect Jon from LF's scheming to me is wholly at odds with what happened in Season 6 and what everyone involved in the show who has discussed the subject is saying will happen in Season 7. The writers went to considerable pains to show that LF has considerable influence over Sansa and can very easily cause her to distrust Jon with the most casual of suggestions. The mere utterance from LF of "half-brother" and LF's warning that Sansa would need an army loyal to her and not Jon led Sansa to lie to Jon about the source of the Blackfish information and her meeting with LF, and that was before the KITN acclamation which validated LF's claims and before LF had rescued Sansa from what would have otherwise been a catastrophic defeat and her subsequent suicide to prevent capture at the BOTB. Everything that happened in the back episodes of Season 6 brought LF and Sansa closer together and affirmed for Sansa the wisdom of LF's view of Jon (a rival at best, a threat at worst). To me, at least, that is going in only one, fairly obvious direction.

Edited September 21, 2016 by Eyes High

[Cherpumple]

18 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

 

1 hour ago, Cherpumple said:

In other storylines, the medieval history nerd in me REALLY wants Cersei to give an official argument to validate her seizure of the Iron Throne, aside from just "I wanted it, and who's going to stop me?"

Isn't that how Robert Baratheon got the throne to begin with? Yes, he had Targ blood, but that blood didn't get him the throne: successfully waging war with the previous occupant did. Cersei even tells Ned that instead of holding the throne for Robert that he should have taken the throne for himself, despite knowing that there's not a drop of Targaryen blood in the entire Stark family tree (apart from Jon, of course, not that Cersei would know that). I'm guessing Cersei took her own advice.

I don't consider Cersei's and Robert's actions analogous. There are definitely rules for legitimate kingship in Westeros, which Robert and his supporters deliberately used to justify his claim. They defeated the Targaryens in martial conquest (a legitimate basis for power) and bolstered this success by highlighting Robert's Targaryen blood. IIRC, this blood tie was a key reason why the coalition decided that Robert should be king, rather than one of the Lannisters or Starks; the appearance of Targaryen continuity, however slight, was important for the legitimacy of his reign. Cersei's comment to Ned and her own actions just tell me that she has her own warped ideas about the power structures, and I don't see anyone else agreeing these ideas at the moment. I don't doubt that she believes her own logic, but my point is that I would love to see how she sells this bill of goods to the other lords of Westeros, who don't hold her in such high esteem, and who don't seem to subscribe to the position that anyone who waltzes in to sit on a throne, without the proper bloodlines or the history of martial conquest, is in any way a legitimate ruler. Like I said, I doubt we'll actually see this level of detail, but I'm still hoping to see a few WTF looks on the various lords' faces when they learn what Cersei has done.

[Wouter]

4 hours ago, SeanC said:

Tyrion and Arya have never been in a scene together [...]

It's kind of interesting, in that that's really the one part of GRRM's pitch letter that really has no counterpart in the series whatsoever.

Tyrion/Sansa is a counterpart, in some aspects. IIRC, in the outline Arya spends at least some time as Tyrions captive, and he tries to woo her at some point. That's not too dissimilar from what happened with Tyrion and Sansa, allthough it doesn't have the romantic angle and it is more about the adverserial part (though in the outline, Tyrion burns Winterfell at some point so it's very far from an all-roses relationship).

Another similarity is the triangle aspect, IIRC it was between Jon and Tyrion in the outline, whereas in the books as they are LF and Tyrion are rivals and both have designs on Sansa - and conflicted feelings on her hovering between wanting to protect her, wanting to have her passion and wanting to control her for their own gains.

 

Generally speaking, given the way the thread is going, I would like to point out that the outline is something that has been changed considerably to the books we have now. Jaime, for example, seems to be the big bad on the Lannister side, and Tyrions storyline is very different. It's not the very first version of the story since GRRM said at some point that originally there was only Arya, and he created Sansa specifically because he felt that it was unrealistic for all the siblings to like each other.

In the outline, Sansa exists but her story is different. Given that the work was still in flux at that point, ultimately resulting in AGOT and the rest, her role could have evolved further since the outline. GRRM kept the aspect of sibling rivalry but toned down the betrayal/dubious loyalty bit significantly; he could easily have kept it but by making Joffrey a monster who mistreated Sansa badly there was no chance of Sansa willingly siding with him after the events of late AGOT.

[GrailKing]

48 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Reading between the lines of GRRM talking about how the main five (including Tyrion) would grow from childhood to adulthood and the original plotlines of Arya falling passionately in love with her brother and Sansa marrying Joffrey and bearing his child, it seems as if GRRM made the decision at some point between the pitch letter and AGOT to deage Arya and Sansa by a few years and to age up Tyrion significantly compared to the other mains. Maybe the planned Tyrion/Arya unrequited crush and the Jon/Arya/Tyrion love triangle were casualties of that decision. Portions of Outline Tyrion's storyline also seem to have been farmed out to Theon (burning Winterfell) or Ramsay (deadly rivalry spurred by Arya).

1. Tone is important for context, so it's useless to rely only on what Sansa said for the complete picture of what was going on in the Sansa/LF scene, just as it's useless to say "Sansa smiled at Jon when he looked at her, therefore she's totally happy with Jon being named KITN" without looking at what she's doing during the rest of the scene and the context of that smile.

2. I rewatched it. No smile after "I don't care after he's a bastard" and Sansa fails to smile again until Jon looks at her for approval.

3. Sansa has done fuck-all to protect Jon from LF, and since when does she care about Jon's safety when it comes at the expense of her own goals? She put Jon's life in danger by withholding important information from him, because she apparently wanted all the credit for the victory (according to Sophie Turner at least). I mean, she could have a change of heart in Season 7, but her track record is not promising.

4. I didn't say that. I said that Sansa does not put her family ahead of her own interests. Season 6 did nothing to contradict that statement. Make no mistake: her quest to reclaim Winterfell was all about her goals.

5. According to GRRM, Sansa bears partial responsibility for her father's death. If you have a problem with that viewpoint, you should take it up with him, but he is writing the books with that opinion in mind.

6. GRRM makes a point of mentioning that Sansa is of "dubious loyalty" in the outline. That is pretty much the only thing he says about her character in terms of personality or background. I think saying that at that time he considered it a defining character trait, since he saw fit to mention it and since that trait seems to drive her plot (betraying her family and bitterly regretting it), is a fair assessment.

Isn't that how Robert Baratheon got the throne to begin with? Yes, he had Targ blood, but that blood didn't get him the throne: successfully waging war with the previous occupant did. Cersei even tells Ned that instead of holding the throne for Robert that he should have taken the throne for himself, despite knowing that there's not a drop of Targaryen blood in the entire Stark family tree (apart from Jon, of course, not that Cersei would know that). I'm guessing Cersei took her own advice.

If anything, Season 6 is pointing to the opposite scenario: Jon or his other advisors may want LF gone or will oppose him because Sansa has said that he is untrustworthy, and Sansa will dig her heels in because in light of the KITN acclamation, she once more appreciates LF as a useful support to her, someone (the only one, apparently) loyal to her and not Jon, and someone who effectively controls an army he will lend her in a pinch. Who is this "Sansa" who is so concerned about LF posing a threat to someone other than herself that she will sacrifice the presence of the only person who sticks up for her leadership potential over Jon's, the only person other than herself who is upset by Jon being acclaimed KITN ahead of her, and the only person who warned her--prophetically, as it turns about--about Jon surpassing her? That version of Sansa does not exist in the show.

D&D's comments about Season 7 point to Jon being plagued by "selfish individuals" and how he had better hope that he's not the only altruistic individual and Sophie's comments about Season 7 point to Sansa having murky, divided loyalties. To me, that points in the opposite direction from Sansa immediately opposing LF. Sansa may well come to side with Jon against LF in the end as many are hoping, maybe once one of LF's schemes blows up in her face again, but it would be the outcome of her arc and the culmination of what would likely be a protracted moral struggle where Sansa is torn between her family loyalties and her personal ambitions, not the starting point.

The theory that Sansa will immediately side against LF and will instead spend Season 7 trying to protect Jon from LF's scheming to me is wholly at odds with what happened in Season 6 and what everyone involved in the show who has discussed the subject is saying will happen in Season 7. The writers went to considerable pains to show that LF has considerable influence over Sansa and can very easily cause her to distrust Jon with the most casual of suggestions. The mere utterance from LF of "half-brother" and LF's warning that Sansa would need an army loyal to her and not Jon led Sansa to lie to Jon about the source of the Blackfish information and her meeting with LF, and that was before the KITN acclamation which validated LF's claims and before LF had rescued Sansa from what would have otherwise been a catastrophic defeat and her subsequent suicide to prevent capture at the BOTB. Everything that happened in the back episodes of Season 6 brought LF and Sansa closer together and affirmed for Sansa the wisdom of LF's view of Jon (a rival at best, a threat at worst). To me, at least, that is going in only one, fairly obvious direction.

While she is out of WF at KL and the Eyrie minus her first season / book her interest is of her surviving, season and book one is on her naivety and her thought of Queen and marring future King.

This>>5. According to GRRM, Sansa bears partial responsibility for her father's death. If you have a problem with that viewpoint, you should take it up with him, but he is writing the books with that opinion in mind. Is wrong or missed quoted by you.

April 10, 1999

Regarding Sansa

Your question re Sansa...

The way I see it, it is not a case of all or nothing. No single person is to blame for Ned's downfall. Sansa played a role, certainly, but it would be unfair to put all the blame on her. But it would also be unfair to exonerate her. She was not privy to all of Ned's plans regarding Stannis, the gold cloaks, etc... but she knew more than just that her father planned to spirit her and Arya away from King's Landing. She knew when they were to leave, on what ship, how many men would be in their escort, who would have the command, where Arya was that morning, etc... all of which was useful to Cersei in planning and timing her move......

The death of Ned is on him and Joffry ( maybe LF also) Openly talking about his plans in front of his children was foolish, so was his thinking that he can't continue to to worry about his daughters safety to keep him from confronting Cersei about going to Robert, or not telling Robert before the hunt, foolish, and he placed Cersei's children above his, once he told Cersei she would have had the roads and docks covered, days later when Sansa ran to say good bye Cersei had to act, Sansa action closed what small chance they had to get out of KL she isn't responsible for her father's death, Ned sealed it with telling Cersei that her son wasn't the rightful heir in front of the whole court.

The rest we aren't going to agree on it's our rights and I'll leave you with yours and I'll keep mine.

[SeanC]

13 minutes ago, Wouter said:

Tyrion/Sansa is a counterpart, in some aspects.

The outline also said that Tyrion would befriend Sansa in addition to Arya, so some sort of interactions between them was always in the cards -- albeit unlikely to be in the form that it eventually took.

[Wouter]

5 minutes ago, SeanC said:

The outline also said that Tyrion would befriend Sansa in addition to Arya, so some sort of interactions between them was always in the cards -- albeit unlikely to be in the form that it eventually took.

Yes, but in the actual books Tyrion could hardly be said to have befriended Sansa. The interaction between them is more in line with the adversial relation that Arya and Tyrion have in the outline, combined with the marriage aspect.

Both Arya and Sansa seem to go very different paths, compared to the outline. Very major differences: Sansa did not get pregnant from Joffrey, and Arya was not reunited with her mother. Arya also didn't reach Winterfell and has had little to no interaction with Tyrion.

[SeanC]

WOTW:  They're filming a Godswood scene at the Saintfield estate.  No indication who's in it (all of the likely suspects are known to be in town, so it could be any or all of them).

[OhOkayWhat]

To me, it is very clear that Littlefinger is not a "lobotomized" tv character, and there is not any nonsensical plot in the last two seasons. It includes Sansa plot and Arya plot. Maybe, we could call that to the Dorne storyline, but I think the high number the coincidences is one of the problems with that part of the show. Also, Cercei rise to power is absolutely coherent with the rest of events of the story.

A lot of the criticism of the show that I was able to read in different forums and blogs is actually people expecting a plot or theory becoming true, and when it does not happen, they call it bad writing, even if the storyline makes sense within the show.

Edited September 21, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[anamika]

5 hours ago, Wouter said:

Tyrion/Sansa is a counterpart, in some aspects. IIRC, in the outline Arya spends at least some time as Tyrions captive, and he tries to woo her at some point. That's not too dissimilar from what happened with Tyrion and Sansa, allthough it doesn't have the romantic angle and it is more about the adverserial part (though in the outline, Tyrion burns Winterfell at some point so it's very far from an all-roses relationship).

Another similarity is the triangle aspect, IIRC it was between Jon and Tyrion in the outline, whereas in the books as they are LF and Tyrion are rivals and both have designs on Sansa - and conflicted feelings on her hovering between wanting to protect her, wanting to have her passion and wanting to control her for their own gains.

Generally speaking, given the way the thread is going, I would like to point out that the outline is something that has been changed considerably to the books we have now. Jaime, for example, seems to be the big bad on the Lannister side, and Tyrions storyline is very different. It's not the very first version of the story since GRRM said at some point that originally there was only Arya, and he created Sansa specifically because he felt that it was unrealistic for all the siblings to like each other.

In the outline, Sansa exists but her story is different. Given that the work was still in flux at that point, ultimately resulting in AGOT and the rest, her role could have evolved further since the outline. GRRM kept the aspect of sibling rivalry but toned down the betrayal/dubious loyalty bit significantly; he could easily have kept it but by making Joffrey a monster who mistreated Sansa badly there was no chance of Sansa willingly siding with him after the events of late AGOT.

Remnant of the outline remain but GRRM has split characters to expand the story.

I don't think Tyrion/Sansa is any kind of counterpart to the Tyrion/Arya story in the outline considering that, outline Tyrion was actually in love with outline Arya. Book Tyrion does not love Sansa - he was saddled with her just like she was saddled with him by Tywin. He married her because he wanted Winterfell. He currently hates her in the books because he thinks she betrayed him.

In the outline we have a Tyrion/Arya/Jon love triangle and Tyrion burns down Winterfell. In the books, we have Ramsey marrying fake Arya, burning down Winterfell and Jon and Ramsey fighting over fake Arya. Ramsey threatens Jon over Arya and Jon forgoes his NW oaths to go rescue her. In the outline, Arya heads beyond the wall with Bran and fights Others and wights with needle - in the books this is currently done by Meera.

So outline Arya and current book Sansa are still very different characters. Rather, aspects of Arya's character was given to Meera Reed who accompanies Bran beyond the wall while he sends Arya off to explore the aftermath of war and to train with the FM. The last we hear of Sansa in the outline, she had betrayed her family, bitterly rues it, has a child and is probably killed off by Jaime. The betrayal part was kept in and with the creation of Baelish, GRRM has a purpose to keep Sansa alive. As for Jaime killing everyone on his way to the throne, that's now being done by his twin sister Cersei who was absent in the outline. Jaime's 'evil' deeds was split between several, rather one dimensionally evil antagonists while he gets to be 'morally grey' and go on his so called redemption arc. That's why he comes across as so horrible in book one and then GRRM suddenly takes a right turn with him and tries to justify his child murder attempts.

If there is going to be a love triangle in the series, it could be Jon/Dany/Tyrion, with the more age appropriate Dany replacing Arya. As seen on the show, Tyrion is possibly showing signs of falling for her and she is heading towards Jon.

Edited September 22, 2016 by anamika

[TxanGoddess]

2 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

A lot of the criticism of the show that I was able to read in different forums and blogs is actually people expecting a plot or theory becoming true, and when it does not happen, they call it bad writing, even if the storyline makes sense within the show.

It just surprises me how decisive and certain some people are that the storyline will go a particular way.  I always try to keep my wording of any predictions or ideas (and my personal hopes) pretty modest, since total certainty is obviously not possible. 

Maybe I do that because I hate admitting that I am wrong though, so I never want to have to come back here after having declared, "XYZ will definitely not happen, and if you think it will you don't know much about GRRM" and have to eat my words! 

Thank God for the posters and especially the You Tubers who are more confident than I am though, because bullshitting around some of their theories really helps while I wait for a new show to fill the hole. 

Edited September 22, 2016 by TxanGoddess

[OhOkayWhat]

45 minutes ago, TxanGoddess said:

Maybe I do that because I hate admitting that I am wrong though, so I never want to have to come back here after having declared, "XYZ will definitely not happen, and if you think it will you don't know much about GRRM" and have to eat my words! 

 

Agree. Also, how is it possible to be so sure about what a "gardener" writer will write? the very nature of such kind of writer should tell us that, with so many grey characters, almost everything can happen!

To me, is very clear that those bloggers, they are smart people, but they really want a certain "something" to happen within the plot, and it creates a big bias in their reviews, add to it some involuntary misquoting, and a bit of assumptions without a real proof and you will have a mix full of mistakes in their articles. It becomes worse when they find a group saying exactly the opposite in the web. Put some of those articles together in the internet, and you will have a echo chamber mentality out there growing and growing.

Edited September 22, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[Eyes High]

15 hours ago, GrailKing said:

While she is out of WF at KL and the Eyrie minus her first season / book her interest is of her surviving, season and book one is on her naivety and her thought of Queen and marring future King.

This>>5. According to GRRM, Sansa bears partial responsibility for her father's death. If you have a problem with that viewpoint, you should take it up with him, but he is writing the books with that opinion in mind. Is wrong or misquoted by you.

There have not been many instances of Sansa needing to choose between her family and her own personal interests, but where she has had to choose, she has always chosen the latter. In the books, it's a trend that seems to be continuing with her indifference towards Sweetrobin (also her family) and her faithful adherence to LF's instructions where he is concerned, even to the point of casually administering him medicine she is repeatedly warned is dangerous and shrugging aside the maester's warnings while thinking "[LF] and I have larger concerns [than "the boy"]." Yes. "Larger concerns" than the health and safety of her family members. Isn't that Sansa in a nutshell? The same goes for the show, albeit in a different context. Instead of manipulating dumb, trusting Sweetrobin while conspiring with LF, she's manipulating her dumb, trusting half-brother while conspiring with LF. It's not necessarily good or bad, particularly given that from Sansa's point of view her family unlike LF left her to rot in KL; it just is.

As for Ned's death, GRRM doesn't consider that Sansa was specifically responsible for his death, true, but GRRM pointedly refused to exonerate her for Ned's downfall as seen in the quote, without which Ned obviously wouldn't have died. The point remains that GRRM considers that Sansa is partially responsible for the sequence of events that led to Ned's death and that he is writing the books with that in mind. Fans' attempts to justify Sansa's actions in AGOT and exonerate her of all wrongdoing are missing the point, since GRRM doesn't exonerate her, and he's the one who will write the ending of the series (hopefully).

This is one of the reasons why I think the idea that Sansa will end up as queen of Westeros, or indeed queen in the North for that matter, is absurd. GRRM will not allow Sansa to benefit in a lasting sense from the very devastation of her house she helped unleash in a bid to preserve her chance of becoming queen. Her desire to be queen was the issue in the first place. If she becomes queen in the end, it will be a retroactive validation of her AGOT bullshit. I think Sansa's chance of becoming queen of anything died with Ned. I also think that GRRM also tipped his hand pretty broadly in AGOT that Arya would surpass Sansa someday, which means either that Arya becomes queen, that Sansa loses her status and title in a permanent sense, or that, as with Jon/Robb, Sansa dies and Arya doesn't.

14 hours ago, SeanC said:

WOTW:  They're filming a Godswood scene at the Saintfield estate.  No indication who's in it (all of the likely suspects are known to be in town, so it could be any or all of them).

Has Aidan Gillen been spotted yet?

10 hours ago, anamika said:

I don't think Tyrion/Sansa is any kind of counterpart to the Tyrion/Arya story in the outline considering that, outline Tyrion was actually in love with outline Arya. Book Tyrion does not love Sansa - he was saddled with her just like she was saddled with him by Tywin. He married her because he wanted Winterfell. He currently hates her in the books because he thinks she betrayed him.

In the outline we have a Tyrion/Arya/Jon love triangle and Tyrion burns down Winterfell. In the books, we have Ramsey marrying fake Arya, burning down Winterfell and Jon and Ramsey fighting over fake Arya. Ramsey threatens Jon over Arya and Jon forgoes his NW oaths to go rescue her. In the outline, Arya heads beyond the wall with Bran and fights Others and wights with needle - in the books this is currently done by Meera.

So outline Arya and current book Sansa are still very different characters. Rather, aspects of Arya's character was given to Meera Reed who accompanies Bran beyond the wall while he sends Arya off to explore the aftermath of war and to train with the FM. The last we hear of Sansa in the outline, she had betrayed her family, bitterly rues it, has a child and is probably killed off by Jaime. The betrayal part was kept in and with the creation of Baelish, GRRM has a purpose to keep Sansa alive. As for Jaime killing everyone on his way to the throne, that's now being done by his twin sister Cersei who was absent in the outline. Jaime's 'evil' deeds was split between several, rather one dimensionally evil antagonists while he gets to be 'morally grey' and go on his so called redemption arc.

This is my sense of the outline as well.

LF is an iteration of a character I've seen a few times before in GRRM's works: the brilliant, quippy, snarky, and embittered cynic who mocks the protagonist's ideals. They all "sound" the same. One was in The Armageddon Rag, which essentially gives us a modern parallel version of LF: Lark Ellyn (lark, like mockingbird, geddit?), an idealist in his youth who sells out to become (to the unending horror of his former friends) an advertising executive. I'm not surprised that GRRM decided at some point to throw a Lark-type character into ASOIAF; he seems to enjoy writing in that voice, and LF is probably a great deal of fun to write (some of the funniest bits of AGOT are LF trying not to roll his eyes too much at Ned's stupidity).

Edited September 22, 2016 by Eyes High

[anamika]

20 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

Personally, I'm hoping the conflict between Jon and Sansa next season is that Sansa doesn't trust Littlefinger and wants him gone while Jon feels they need Littlefinger because of his control of the Vale armies which will be needed for the war with the White Walkers. That feels like a much more plausible divide for a conflict to me than some "Sansa is greedy for power" nonsense. It plays to both their inherent weaknesses... Sansa's mistrustfulness and desire for security and Jon's desire for any allies he can get and being generally too trusting... without making either one the bad guy (that's reserved for Littlefinger).

Such a scenario would then give us scenes of Jon interacting with Littlefinger (and possibly Lord Royce and Robin) and Littlefinger trying to get Jon to trust him while Sansa is trying to get Davos and Tormund (i.e. people she didn't fully trust last season, but who Jon trusts implicitly) on her side against Littlefinger. Meanwhile, Littlefinger can be working behind the scenes to get Lord Cerwyn (the whiny one who wanted to go home and still looked uncertain even as other lords started declaring for Jon) and a few other Northern Lords to push against 'The Bastard King' in favor of trueborn Sansa as part of setting up a no-win scenario to get what he wants.

It also sets up nicely several reactions and reverses that a narrative needs. Ex. Sansa wins over Tormund to her cause, but then Littlefinger convinces Jon that Tormund and the Free Folk should head to the Wall with the Vale armies because the Free Folk are more familiar with the terrain than his men. Or she wins over Davos, but then Littlefinger brings news of Dany's forces and suggests sending the King's most trusted advisor to treat with Dany for more troops for the fight. Each time a reasonable suggestion with the side-effect of separating Jon from his most trusted advisors, undermining Sansa's efforts to convince Jon of the danger and making it easier for his conspiracy with the Northern Lords to unseat Jon and put Sansa on the throne (and with Jon out of the way and since she's a girl in time of war and he is her uncle by marriage that would make Littlefinger de facto head of the household).

So idiot Jon for some reason trusts LF and follows his instructions despite Sansa telling him that only a fool would trust LF and that he sold her to the Boltons etc. and awesome Sansa wins over Davos and Wildling Tormund against LF with her awesome Sansa powers? I would not put it past the writers to actually write this fanfiction since they don't seem to have a problem throwing Jon's character under the bus to prop up Sansa - but man, what a character assassination of book Jon that would be. While he is at it, maybe Jon should also call back Melisandre and ignore her child burning tendencies since she would be a valuable asset against the WW and all that. 

Edited September 22, 2016 by anamika

[Advance35]

Quote

It just surprises me how decisive and certain some people are that the storyline will go a particular way.  I always try to keep my wording of any predictions or ideas (and my personal hopes) pretty modest, since total certainty is obviously not possible. 

Maybe I do that because I hate admitting that I am wrong though, so I never want to have to come back here after having declared, "XYZ will definitely not happen, and if you think it will you don't know much about GRRM" and have to eat my words! 

During Season 5, I seriously saw an article that said the show was garbage and losing the character because Sansa has to be a the "virgin queen"?!?!?!?!  I kid you not.

"Sansa will outfox any and everyone and ascend to be the power behind the throne, never married but an independent woman who needs no man"

or

"Sansa dies horribly and finally gets her comeuppance for daring to not be fond of paint by the numbers Tomboy Arya"

"Jon and Tyrion are going to meet up and recognize kindred spirits and be brothers in arms and heart", nevermind that Jon Snow (in the books) wishes death and destruction on King Tommen and all of House Lannister.

There is WAY to much investment for me to ever give weight to anyone's speculation where ASOIAF/GoT is concerned.

In other speculation news......

Gwendoline Christie gave an interview on the redcarpet and she gave a much less ominous response about what's ahead in Season 7.

Gwendoline Christie Season 7

Don't know who she's talking about.  In terms of "What fan's have always wanted"  Her strongest character connections are Jaimie, Podrick, Sansa and I guess Tormund.   I do take this interview to mean Brienne the Beauty will live to see Season 8.