S03.E07: Judgment

[HalcyonDays]

Episode synopsis: Mary attempts to kill Simcoe by herself; Benedict Arnold defends himself in his court-martial; Ben reunites with his savior.

[tabloidlover]

Wowzers!  Are the producers trying to wrap everything up in the next 3 episodes or what? More action and progress this season than in the last 2 combined.  Very disappointed in Mary tonight 

Spoiler

Sending Simcoe's men towards Caleb

[ComeWhatMay]

When another season isn't guaranteed, I think it behooves show runners to tie it all up & have a good ending for the DVD. It is also doing well by fans in the process. If they are doing so here, good, if this is the last season. I feared last season was so I just take what I can get now. 

With a ride or die woman like Mary by his side, Abe looks like an even bigger tool to me. Mary is a BAMF.

Papa Woodhull, Simcoe & RR may all die now. 

I do feel for Andre, but he did Philomena dirty. It's just sad to watch when a man has a woman twisting herself in knots trying to be someone she is not, never mind dead dropping her in the end. 

Peggy & Arnold, what a pair. Girl on the rebound & a "whiny a** b****."

RIP, Sarah. So glad Sarah fought that creep until the end. Sarah was as strong in her beliefs as Ben is his. The way they looked at each other. Star crossed lovers in spite of it all. The look on Numrich's Ben's face when Ben heard that gunshot said it all too. 

Sarah dirty & unkempt like Ben at her home in a role reversal. Ben breaking all the rules to try & save Sarah as Sarah did Ben. Not sure why, but I wondered if Sarah was pregnant. 

Ben delivering that beat down was a thing of beauty. Guilt over the death of his savior, first time (under false pretenses & thus lacking consent) & experience with love (people married with a lot less than what Ben knew with Sarah in those times & Ben knows it) combusting with utter rage toward a creep who violated a woman & then killed her when she wouldn't let him have his way with her. 

[LittleIggy]

Sorry, I didn't give a bleep about Sarah dying. Ben gave her a way out, but she didn't take it.

Lord Varys on GOT is a eunuch, but his voice is deeper than Simcoe's! When are his testicles going to descend so we don't have to listen to that poncey voice anymore? Another problem with Simcoe is that he, like Rogers, is based on an actual historical figure who survived the war so we know his character won't be killed.

Peggy unchaperoned at Arnold's house at night. A few episodes ago, she wouldn't go in to look at his new house  because "oh, dear, it wouldn't be proper!" Whatever.

[Kabota]

That episode gutted me. It was great and terrible. 

I never expected to think that the best part of any episode would be the Benedict and Peggy, but his court martial, and her realization that she’s best off laying in the bed she’s made, moved that arc forward in a way that was pretty historically accurate and effective. The ending song as it all went down “for the money,” and Arnold goes over to the dark side, was, again, brilliant. Note to tptb: MAKE THIS MUSIC AVAILABLE FOR PURCHASE!!!

I’ve always liked Mary. From the start. So, seeing her go into protective, mama bear mode, kicking ass all over Whitehall, was pretty great, albeit a bit on the fly and graphic in parts. (I did keep wondering, though, if Richard and Thomas were going to make the mistake of coming out of their rooms and getting caught in the melee. Maybe they had their earbuds in or something.) BUT the annoying part is that we knew Simcoe wasn’t going to die. Like maybe it’s kind of amusing that he’s lost his ear, but there is no way that character is departing TURN!world until the very last episode. It’s a given. And all it does is escalate his crazy — which a few Long Island mosquitoes are apt to do, as well. It was frenetic and tense and fun to watch, but I wish Mary had just poisoned his psycho ass.

Having Sarah die the way she did was just…smh. I was glad that they had her stay true to her beliefs, but the rest of it… I’m just not sure what the point was now, and I liked 3.04. It was just disappointing and sad that she was dealt with that way. And really where’s Ben supposed to go with this, now? Is he gonna doubt the cause, or have a death wish? Confess his wartime sins to the new camp chaplain? Repress all emotion and tunnel vision his duty...'cause that's basically what he's always done, anyway?  Maybe it’s the first time he’s seen someone so crushed by his side, but Ben losing people and getting crapped on is pretty much a drinking game, at this point, and if something “good,” didn't/doesn't come of it, what a complete waste of time and character(s).     

Andre with Philomena was plain gross -- gosh, I feel for Abigail. I have a feeling Philomena is going to love serving cold revenge to him, via Robert Rogers. It’s funny, I really thought that this season would finally be the one in which we got our chess match between Andre and Ben. Instead, we have the two of them basically screwing up and falling apart in parallel worlds. Guess if they ever meet up, they’ll have plenty to commiserate about. 

Loved General Knox -- these cameos are always fun! But, gosh, this show really is just loosely based on the historical sources, at this point. 

Edited June 7, 2016 by Kabota
I'm always overthinking.

[HalcyonDays]

Quote

BUT the annoying part is that we knew Simcoe wasn’t going to die. Like maybe it’s kind of amusing that he’s lost his ear, but there is no way that character is departing TURN!world until the very last episode

That's won't even happen. Without Simcoe, my

Spoiler

country of Canada and the City of Toronto wouldn't even have been founded, among the many other major things the Real Simcoe implemented ere. Nope, crazy Simcoe's here to stay.

You have to admit, Samuel Roukin is having a blast with this role.

Mary taking charge and basically trying to kill Simcoe as the best - she should have been heading this spy ring, since she's seems to be the only one who can act for the greater good. Hell, if she led a regiment, the British would have lost sooner.

Thought this was a really good episode. Was happy when Arnold was vindicated actually, as he should have been.

Andre and his obsession with Peggy is kinda sad actually. Creepy too.

Poor Sarah didn't deserve that at all. Hoping that she would be fine. Ben trying to help her no matter what was awesome. But it also showed how each side had it's brutality. Some were good people, others not even close. But Ben beating the crap out of the guy was perfect.

Shallow Comment of the Episode: Seth Numrich/Ben Tallmadge. That is all.

Quote

Peggy unchaperoned at Arnold's house at night. A few episodes ago, she wouldn't go in to look at his new house  because "oh, dear, it wouldn't be proper!" Whatever.

I thought the exact same thing when I saw this. In fact, I was thinking this back a few episodes back.

[Happy Belly]

i say let Ben and Caleb run this spy ring and let Abe go be James Bond because is really annoying the crap out of me.  Purely from a very shallow point of view, may I add that Ben has never been hotter than when he was beating the bejeebers out of that guy! 

[Haleth]

3 hours ago, Happy Belly said:

i say let Ben and Caleb run this spy ring and let Abe go be James Bond because is really annoying the crap out of me.  Purely from a very shallow point of view, may I add that Ben has never been hotter than when he was beating the bejeebers out of that guy! 

A real life observation, not a show spoiler, but hidden in case you don't want to know:

Real Abe annoyed the crap out of everyone.  Including G Washington.

[tabloidlover]

Thanks for the insight haleth!  I had no idea they cast it so well :)

[EyewatchTV211]

10 hours ago, Kabota said:

That episode gutted me. It was great and terrible. 

I never expected to think that the best part of any episode would be the Benedict and Peggy, but his court martial, and her realization that she’s best off laying in the bed she’s made, moved that arc forward in a way that was pretty historically accurate and effective. The ending song as it all went down “for the money,” and Arnold goes over to the dark side, was, again, brilliant. Note to tptb: MAKE THIS MUSIC AVAILABLE FOR PURCHASE!!!

I’ve always liked Mary. From the start. So, seeing her go into protective, mama bear mode, kicking ass all over Whitehall, was pretty great, albeit a bit on the fly and graphic in parts. (I did keep wondering, though, if Richard and Thomas were going to make the mistake of coming out of their rooms and getting caught in the melee. Maybe they had their earbuds in or something.) BUT the annoying part is that we knew Simcoe wasn’t going to die. Like maybe it’s kind of amusing that he’s lost his ear, but there is no way that character is departing TURN!world until the very last episode. It’s a given. And all it does is escalate his crazy — which a few Long Island mosquitoes are apt to do, as well. It was frenetic and tense and fun to watch, but I wish Mary had just poisoned his psycho ass.

Having Sarah die the way she did was just…smh. I was glad that they had her stay true to her beliefs, but the rest of it… I’m just not sure what the point was now, and I liked 3.04. It was just disappointing and sad that she was dealt with that way. And really where’s Ben supposed to go with this, now? Is he gonna doubt the cause, or have a death wish? Confess his wartime sins to the new camp chaplain? Repress all emotion and tunnel vision his duty...'cause that's basically what he's always done, anyway?  Maybe it’s the first time he’s seen someone so crushed by his side, but Ben losing people and getting crapped on is pretty much a drinking game, at this point, and if something “good,” didn't/doesn't come of it, what a complete waste of time and character(s).     

Andre with Philomena was plain gross -- gosh, I feel for Abigail. I have a feeling Philomena is going to love serving cold revenge to him, via Robert Rogers. It’s funny, I really thought that this season would finally be the one in which we got our chess match between Andre and Ben. Instead, we have the two of them basically screwing up and falling apart in parallel worlds. Guess if they ever meet up, they’ll have plenty to commiserate about. 

Loved General Knox -- these cameos are always fun! But, gosh, this show really is just loosely based on the historical sources, at this point. 

Agree with almost everything in this post.

Meanwhile, they totally could kill off Simcoe even though the real one lives and 

Spoiler

helps found Canada.

If I remember right, the writers actually had planned to kill him off after the first episode but ended up loving the character. As long as they don't plan on another show about 

Spoiler

the founding of Canada,

the show can really do whatever it wants without mention of later impact on other countries. So I kind of wish they would at this point. I enjoyed him for awhile but at this point he's overkill. It's sad that the show is so loosely based on reality that one of the biggest continuous sources of drama regarding the spying surrounds a man that wouldn't really have been hanging around like this.

[ganesh]

I sure hope this is renewed because this season has been some fun. 

"No way Mary hits Simcoe from there." Oh wait she's been practicing! Then she stone cold knifed the soldier. So did she actually see Caleb in the wood and thought it was Rogers or was she messing with them?

I was surprised Arnold kept his cool in the trial. He did well. But of course, the money and he's going to flip out again.

Mary and Anna got more done than the boys at this point almost.

[OakGoblinFly]

Well, I guess it was too much to ask that the quality that the show showed us for the first six episodes extended for the entire season (and I am hoping that this episode was just an anomaly) because this episode was all kinds of pathetic.

 

First, can we just get rid of the Simcoe character already?  He really does not add anything new or interesting to the storyline; the entire Keystone Cops routine with Mary trying and failing to kill him and the Rangers going in circles trying to catch “Rogers” was cringe-worthy.   And while he’s leaving, please take Robert Rogers, any mention of him, and all plots that involve even imaginary Rogers too.  You can take Papa Woodhull to complete your sorry trio.

 

Second, am I supposed to feel sorry about Sarah?  Because I don’t.  I didn’t find her interesting in her first episode and I didn’t find her compelling here, especially since Ben gave her a way out.  Oh show, you really had to go to the standard trope of having a male solider attempt to rape a female captive; so unimaginative and very, very lazy. 

 

Did Ben go off the deep end because he feels guilty for having pre-marital sex with Sarah and then leaving her (which is stupid because SHE kicked HIM to the curb after SHE used HIM) and now he feels responsible for her death?  Well, he shouldn’t because Sarah was the one who decided to set up an ambush, Sarah was the one who got captured, and Sarah was the one who refused Ben’s deal (even when he told her she just had to sign the paper and then disappear).  I didn’t buy their “connection” then and I certainly don’t buy it now.  If they want Ben to have a relationship with a woman, why not create one who works with the ring (not Anna – I adore the sibling vibe they have) or one who lives in a town near one of the dead drops allowing Ben to see her when picking up/delivering some messages?  I’m glad the powers-that-be are giving Numrich more to do, but he really deserves better than this crap (actually that’s true for most of this very talented cast).

 

I am so freakin’ tired of mopey, love-struck John André and dejected Peggy Shippen.  The story of Benedict Arnold’s turning traitor is interesting enough without having to create a love triangle.

 

The only enjoyable part of this episode was Arnold defending himself at the court martial.    

[ganesh]

I don't know how much you know about history, but don't hold your breath on "the Simcoe character". He's an actual historical figure. 

[blackwing]

Honestly, I couldn't care less about Sarah or her death.  I didn't care for her when she first appeared, and thought that storyline was odd and out of place, and I didn't care for her this time either.  She was willing to die for her beliefs, and well... she did.  Boo hoo hoo.

I have detested Simcoe and his abnormally high voice since the very start.  I didn't realise that the writers had been planning to kill him off.  I had always assumed that since he is a historical figure and it is fairly well known that he goes on to found the city now known as Toronto and becomes the Lieutenant Governor of Upper Canada, that we are stuck with him until the end of the series.  (I thought that historical facts are not spoilers, and don't need spoiler bars?)  And I think this is part of the fault I find in historical dramas... if the characters are fairly well known figures in history, we know that they aren't going to die.  Sure, there can be some liberties taken with them (the most egregious example being the fictitious romance between Peggy Shippen and John Andre) but the general story and ultimate fate shouldn't change all that much.

Can't say enough about how much I hate that voice.  Did Simcoe have a high voice?  Is that the actor's natural voice?  Or is this an extremely odd acting choice?  I'm so tired of both him and Richard Rogers.  Throw in Woodhull Senior as well.  If all three of them can die in a fiery fire, I wouldn't be unhappy.

[OakGoblinFly]

48 minutes ago, ganesh said:

I don't know how much you know about history, but don't hold your breath on "the Simcoe character". He's an actual historical figure. 

So was Nathaniel Sackett and the show had no qualms about killing him before his time.

[ComeWhatMay]

Quote

Did Ben go off the deep end because he feels guilty for having pre-marital sex with Sarah and then leaving her (which is stupid because SHE kicked HIM to the curb after SHE used HIM) and now he feels responsible for her death?  Well, he shouldn’t because Sarah was the one who decided to set up an ambush, Sarah was the one who got captured, and Sarah was the one who refused Ben’s deal (even when he told her she just had to sign the paper and then disappear).  I didn’t buy their “connection” then and I certainly don’t buy it now.  

It was short with Sarah, sure, but I explained it as such... People were shorter with things then. Women weren't allowed to have anything for themselves without a great deal of trouble & marriages could be downright practical. You got married because you were told to much of the time. Love & sexual desire came secondary to more practical concerns. Sarah saved Ben's life & was fundamentally a good person. Ben wanting to take care of Sarah after their night together made sense & to me, spoke well of him. Hit it & quit it still sucks. Sarah feeling bad -- likely feeling like she disrespected her late husband in their marital bed & that she took advantage of a vulnerable man -- a minister -- she woke from a nightmare when she could have let him be -- & then wanting to let Ben be right on his way spoke well of her. I understood Sarah's loneliness and wanting to shag a "minister" packing so much heat. Seth's bare arm draped over the actress in the morning light had me drooling into my Tiramisu. Quite the guns on our Ben Tallmadge.    

As a minister's kid, the hot pre-marital sex alone would result in some guilt for Ben given his previously established moral code, especially when you factor in its 1778. No pill back then so Ben could have jammed Sarah up pretty bad. Maybe Ben did & that's why Sarah did not give a crap about her own life & had a bit of her own death wish & went whole hog for the Tory cause? Unwed mothers were not a thing back then -- you were henceforth rubbish as was the child. To a larger extent, I do wonder how some of the ladies on this show are not 20 shades of pregnant with how much sex they have. Anna with Abe during their affair was a prime example unless they were trying to convey Anna is infertile as they may have been. Who knows? 

Sarah saving Ben's life -- Ben's appearance in Sarah's life at all -- is what ultimately led to her planning the ambush that landed her in custody. Should Sarah have just let it be with Ben's exit & got back to staying out of it? Sure, but when you have been deceived, are angry & perhaps even wounded or forever altered in some way, you don't always think straight & act rashly. Sarah owned she was lonely the morning after -- Patriots killed her husband & that's how Sarah got lonely. I could see Sarah not wishing to switch sides or collude with Ben as his side killed her husband & Ben lied about who he was when they slept together. Whatever Sarah was doing, consent doesn't apply when you don't know who you are sleeping with... 

Principles are a pesky thing, admirable, but they can be expensive. Ben admired Sarah's unwavering commitment to her beliefs until the end even though they did not match his own. I can see why this whole business has shaken Ben up so bad.  

[blackwing]

26 minutes ago, OakGoblinFly said:

So was Nathaniel Sackett and the show had no qualms about killing him before his time.

Yes, but Nathaniel Sackett is not as well known as Benedict Arnold or John Graves Simcoe or Peggy Shippen.

[EyewatchTV211]

1 hour ago, ganesh said:

I don't know how much you know about history, but don't hold your breath on "the Simcoe character". He's an actual historical figure. 

I know he actually existed. I was referring to the showrunners enjoying the character they had created (at this point loosely based on an actual person) and the actor's portrayal. That's why I used the word "character." 

ETA: Oops, realized you probably were not referring to my post. I did refer to him as a character as well as a real person, but I see someone else also referred to him as a character.

Edited June 8, 2016 by VMepicgrl

[HalcyonDays]

Quote

I had always assumed that since he is a historical figure and it is fairly well known that he goes on to found the city now known as Toronto and becomes the Lieutenant Governor of Upper Canada, that we are stuck with him until the end of the series.  (I thought that historical facts are not spoilers, and don't need spoiler bars?)

Yeah, but some people are so spoiler-adverse that even the hint of what 'could' happen on the show, based on real-life, makes people have a sneezing fit. It's good that we are being more careful, spoiler-tagging just in case.

But I've actually struggled with it, simply because what you said above, it's fact. The show just twists the hell out of history. I'm fine with not spoiler-tagging it though - unless someone really is a stickler. Fact is, the show has deviated so much some actual history and the A. Rose book it's based on, it would be hard to "spoil' someone at this point - because I've read the book and the show is very different.

The show is no where near what the book is based on, and obviously real-life history. One could call it an "intrepretation" at this point.

Quote

Yes, but Nathaniel Sackett is not as well known as Benedict Arnold or John Graves Simcoe or Peggy Shippen.

Is Simcoe really well known in the US, though? For me, yes, since I grew up near Simcoe, Ontario and live near Toronto now, so yes.

But I've never studied American history - just read for interest. I've obviously heard of Benedict Arnold, knew what he "did', but had never heard of Peggy Shippen until this show, neither Nathaniel Sackett. So I wonder how many Americans had heard of Simcoe?

[Kabota]

2 hours ago, OakGoblinFly said:

So was Nathaniel Sackett and the show had no qualms about killing him before his time.

The only character who I think is sacred in terms of plot armor is Washington, tbh. We know that the pilot was originally filmed with Simcoe dying, and the fact that they've made him into such a manic psycho is exactly the reason I think they will kill him. It kind of gives them a clean break from the historical character who went on to be a Canadian dignitary. 

He's such a popular character in terms of people loving to hate him that I'd be shocked if they allowed him to be killed off any time before the very end of the series. Then, again, that's complicated by the fact that tptb don't seem to know exactly when that will be, as they film.

 

2 hours ago, ComeWhatMay said:

It was short with Sarah, sure, but I explained it as such... People were shorter with things then. Women weren't allowed to have anything for themselves without a great deal of trouble & marriages could be downright practical. You got married because you were told to much of the time. Love & sexual desire came secondary to more practical concerns. Sarah saved Ben's life & was fundamentally a good person. Ben wanting to take care of Sarah after their night together made sense & to me, spoke well of him. Hit it & quit it still sucks. Sarah feeling bad -- likely feeling like she disrespected her late husband in their marital bed & that she took advantage of a vulnerable man -- a minister -- she woke from a nightmare when she could have let him be -- & then wanting to let Ben be right on his way spoke well of her. I understood Sarah's loneliness and wanting to shag a "minister" packing so much heat. Seth's bare arm draped over the actress in the morning light had me drooling into my Tiramisu. Quite the guns on our Ben Tallmadge.    

As a minister's kid, the hot pre-marital sex alone would result in some guilt for Ben given his previously established moral code, especially when you factor in its 1778. No pill back then so Ben could have jammed Sarah up pretty bad. Maybe Ben did & that's why Sarah did not give a crap about her own life & had a bit of her own death wish & went whole hog for the Tory cause? Unwed mothers were not a thing back then -- you were henceforth rubbish as was the child. To a larger extent, I do wonder how some of the ladies on this show are not 20 shades of pregnant with how much sex they have. Anna with Abe during their affair was a prime example unless they were trying to convey Anna is infertile as they may have been. Who knows? 

Sarah saving Ben's life -- Ben's appearance in Sarah's life at all -- is what ultimately led to her planning the ambush that landed her in custody. Should Sarah have just let it be with Ben's exit & got back to staying out of it? Sure, but when you have been deceived, are angry & perhaps even wounded or forever altered in some way, you don't always think straight & act rashly. Sarah owned she was lonely the morning after -- Patriots killed her husband & that's how Sarah got lonely. I could see Sarah not wishing to switch sides or collude with Ben as his side killed her husband & Ben lied about who he was when they slept together. Whatever Sarah was doing, consent doesn't apply when you don't know who you are sleeping with... 

Principles are a pesky thing, admirable, but they can be expensive. Ben admired Sarah's unwavering commitment to her beliefs until the end even though they did not match his own. I can see why this whole business has shaken Ben up so bad.  

A great book with insight into late 18th century sexual, reproductive, courting, and marriage mores is A Midwives Tale: The Life of Martha Ballard Based on Her Diary 1785-1812, by Laurel Thatcher Ulrich. While a great deal depended upon your social status and whether you lived in a rural or city setting, things were not as repressed as we might think -- certainly nowhere as restrictive as they were to become during the mid 19th century. I keep expecting Mary to get pregnant, complicating both her and Abe's commitment to all this insanity.

I can understand Ben being messed up. The assassination of the reverend, his capture and wounding by Gamble, SARAH, the counterfeit fail, killing Gamble, the breakdown of the ring (because he trusts his friends, lol) and more SARAH -- and that's in just, what, a month?  But, like, make it lead somewhere. Have it motivate him to do something relevant. Have it obviously alter/mature him in some way that's defined by action. I'm just tired of them throwing loss after loss, and guilty angst at the character just because...and moving on, little follow-up. Get him away from the damn desk and out patrolling the neutral areas of NY to try to prevent the activity that resulted in people like Sarah and her neighbors having to live in fear and lawlessness.  That's what real life Tallmadge was doing. Get on it, show.

Edited June 8, 2016 by Kabota

[ComeWhatMay]

4 minutes ago, Kabota said:

A great book with insight into late 18th century sexual, reproductive, courting, and marriage mores is A Midwives Tale: The Life of Martha Ballard Based on Her Diary 1785-1812, by Laurel Thatcher Ulrich. While a great deal depended upon your social status and whether you lived in a rural or city setting, things were not as repressed as we might think -- certainly nowhere as restrictive as they were to become during the mid 19th century.

Yep. As I recall, the midwife would ask you who the father was while you were in labor & it was not uncommon for there to be weddings with the bride in the family way & obviously so. It could be loose, but it was expected for the father to step up to the plate. If he didn't, well... 

Numrich has the chops for all this angst. They are milking it, I think, but they should get on with it & make it all mean something as you say. Numrich has the chops for that too. 

[Kabota]

4 minutes ago, ComeWhatMay said:

Yep. As I recall, the midwife would ask you who the father was while you were in labor & it was not uncommon for there to be weddings with the bride in the family way & obviously so. It could be loose, but it was expected for the father to step up to the plate. If he didn't, well... 

Numrich has the chops for all this angst. They are milking it, I think, but they should get on with it & make it all mean something as you say. Numrich has the chops for that too. 

Yes, lol, there was some sort of law or custom, wherein it was believed that if the woman said the man's name during childbirth, he was the father, paternity test complete;)

And, no denying Seth Numrich plays wounded beautifully but, yeah, he and the character can tackle a greater range.

[OakGoblinFly]

3 hours ago, blackwing said:

Yes, but Nathaniel Sackett is not as well known as Benedict Arnold or John Graves Simcoe or Peggy Shippen.

I must be the odd ball because I knew nothing about Simcoe prior to this show yet I knew/know quite a bit about Sackett.

 

Still, it doesn't change the fact that (historical figure or not, well known or not) Simcoe as portrayed on this show is (in my opinion) an awful character and has outlived his usefulness as a plot device half way through season one.

[OakGoblinFly]

1 hour ago, ComeWhatMay said:

Numrich has the chops for all this angst. They are milking it, I think, but they should get on with it & make it all mean something as you say. Numrich has the chops for that too. 

He has the chops to be other than angst or stoic; I really wish the powers-that-be would allow him to do so – some of my favorite Ben moments are when he is plotting with Caleb (love the scene from season one when he spins a story about the scout in order to get Abe’s intelligence about the Hessians to General Washington or any scene with him and Anna; thought he was his best when working with Stephen Root (then again, who wouldn't be?)).

 

Honestly, the entire cast is talented  - I wish the powers that be would focus on the talent they have, tell the story of spying, and forgo the romance.

 

This episode showcases everything that I disliked about parts of season one and two.

1 hour ago, Kabota said:

I can understand Ben being messed up. The assassination of the reverend, his capture and wounding by Gamble, SARAH, the counterfeit fail, killing Gamble, the breakdown of the ring (because he trusts his friends, lol) and more SARAH -- and that's in just, what, a month?  But, like, make it lead somewhere. Have it motivate him to do something relevant. Have it obviously alter/mature him in some way that's defined by action. I'm just tired of them throwing loss after loss, and guilty angst at the character just because...and moving on, little follow-up. Get him away from the damn desk and out patrolling the neutral areas of NY to try to prevent the activity that resulted in people like Sarah and her neighbors having to live in fear and lawlessness.  That's what real life Tallmadge was doing. Get on it, show.

I suppose that makes some sort of sense, though I think it does a great disservice to both the character and the actor.

[LittleIggy]

Which was General Knox? I don't remember seeing a 300 lb. guy.

[Kabota]

1 hour ago, LittleIggy said:

Which was General Knox? I don't remember seeing a 300 lb. guy.

I believe he was the one who talked to Arnold at the end, telling him Congress was bankrupt and, at least, Arnold's honor was restored. No, he didn't really resemble the physical type of rl Knox. But Arnold's being played by a 6'4" actor, so the show's adherence to characters' physical resemblance is inconsistent.

[LittleIggy]

5 hours ago, Kabota said:

I believe he was the one who talked to Arnold at the end, telling him Congress was bankrupt and, at least, Arnold's honor was restored. No, he didn't really resemble the physical type of rl Knox. But Arnold's being played by a 6'4" actor, so the show's adherence to characters' physical resemblance is inconsistent.

Knox is one of my favorite Revolutionary War people. He got those cannons where they were needed!

[AAEBoiler]

Simcoe also needs to live long enough to be the inspiration for Wile E Coyote because he just won't die no matter what happens to him.

[SharonH58]

Action packed episode but Abe sure did cave in quick.  He needs to work on his lying skills.  He gave up the bat cave pretty fast.  Course he should have moved all that stuff as EVERYONE  saw him going in and out of it and it had NO lock.  And why did Mary scream she saw Rogers when she knew Caleb was waiting for them?  I thought for sure she was going to get him killed.  But she did a good job of almost killing Simcoe.  But he has 9 lives.  You can only kill him with a stake through his heart!  But I love to hate his character.  He is out of control.  Where was Richard during all the shooting?  Hiding?   Thank god that Caleb gave Mary a cover shot outside so Simcoe hopefully not suspect Mary.

[ganesh]

Abe gave up the bat cave to spin a lie about it actually being Rogers' hideout. He heard Simcoe mention that Rogers was Culper and used that to wriggle out of being shot. He told Simcoe Rogers forced Abe to help him, so Abe showed Simcoe evidence of "Culper." 

The hideout had a lock on it, but Rogers locked Abe and Mrs. Abe in there, so they had to break out of it in the previous episode. 

[Happy Belly]

Thank you Haleth! i had no idea..in the immortal words of Arte Johnson, "VERRRRY INTERESTING".

[ComeWhatMay]

Something that may interest only me as I tend to pull from pop culture when I write myself & henceforth dating myself... A song that turns up on flashback weekends on soft rock stations locally is "Sara" by Starship. When I heard that song again after viewing both of the 'Sarah' episodes, I had to smile. Lyrics

In a nutshell, 'Sara' is a song about a relationship that started young ending -- Rebecca De Mornay from Risky Business is dolled up for prom in one scene from the video -- between two hopelessly incompatible people.

Fire - Spitfire Sarah. Ice - Until Sarah, tunnel vision, virgin Ben. Unrelenting Tory - Sarah. Patriots killed her husband. Unrelenting Patriot - Ben. The Redcoats killed his best friend from college, his brother, Sackett, etc. Line was drawn as the song says. No happy ever after here. But Sarah saved Ben again knowing who he really was & Ben tried his best to save Sarah.

Seeing your first love violated & brutally killed is not something someone forgets. Numrich has range for days. I hope the writers deliver on the set-up here.

Edited June 10, 2016 by ComeWhatMay

[Hanahope]

On 6/8/2016 at 2:38 PM, HalcyonDays said:

Is Simcoe really well known in the US, though? For me, yes, since I grew up near Simcoe, Ontario and live near Toronto now, so yes.

But I've never studied American history - just read for interest. I've obviously heard of Benedict Arnold, knew what he "did', but had never heard of Peggy Shippen until this show, neither Nathaniel Sackett. So I wonder how many Americans had heard of Simcoe?

I have absolutely no recollection whatsoever of learning about Simcoe, Shippen or Sackett and all I remember of Arnold is that he was a traitor, not even what specific act he did.  Now my American History class in elementary school was a very long time ago, its certainly possible those names were mentioned briefly and I just forgot, I'm sure I knew more info about Arnold than I can currently recall.  In that respect, I'm glad I watched this show and read this forum, so that I actually have a little bit more information about all this.  Its even peaked my interest enough that I may look for some books for more details. 

[LilJen]

On ‎6‎/‎7‎/‎2016 at 9:51 AM, Kabota said:

I’ve always liked Mary. From the start. So, seeing her go into protective, mama bear mode, kicking ass all over Whitehall, was pretty great, albeit a bit on the fly and graphic in parts. (I did keep wondering, though, if Richard and Thomas were going to make the mistake of coming out of their rooms and getting caught in the melee. Maybe they had their earbuds in or something.) BUT the annoying part is that we knew Simcoe wasn’t going to die. Like maybe it’s kind of amusing that he’s lost his ear, but there is no way that character is departing TURN!world until the very last episode. It’s a given. And all it does is escalate his crazy — which a few Long Island mosquitoes are apt to do, as well. It was frenetic and tense and fun to watch, but I wish Mary had just poisoned his psycho ass.

Man, what a woman. Gone nutso over it all. I, too, was hoping that the lovely meal Mary provided was simply poisoned. . . but kudos to her for keeping up with her target practice. She didn't quite hit her mark, but not bad :)

Not sure I buy Peggy being all "boo hoo, my beloved screwed another woman" when she's been screwing another man for months now. Rolling my eyes at that one.