S05.E10: The Day the World Went Away

[Gigi43]

If the Machine were take on Root beyond her voice, then Finch should consider the Machine a failure because Root is not who Finch would want the Machine to be. Going back Finch's chess lessons and his speech that everyone is equal, Root does still believe in a system of kings and pawns. 

 

I wish the Machine would have taken on the voice of Nathan.

[Netfoot]

Finch's mistake was made early.  He somehow thought that you could put the technological Genie back into the bottle.  That never happens.

From the moment he realized he'd created a ASI, he has been trying to limit it, and control what it could and couldn't do.  But the fact is, once there was a single ASI, the odds approached certainty that there would soon be another.  Which he had no control of.  

What Finch should have been doing all this time, is teaching The Machine how to be The Machine, in the inevitable confrontation to come.  I just hope he hasn't left it too late.

[bros402]

9 hours ago, Netfoot said:

Finch's mistake was made early.  He somehow thought that you could put the technological Genie back into the bottle.  That never happens.

From the moment he realized he'd created a ASI, he has been trying to limit it, and control what it could and couldn't do.  But the fact is, once there was a single ASI, the odds approached certainty that there would soon be another.  Which he had no control of.  

What Finch should have been doing all this time, is teaching The Machine how to be The Machine, in the inevitable confrontation to come.  I just hope he hasn't left it too late.

The Machine might be able to analyze the methods Samaritan has utilized and ones that other people have done, see which ones were effective or would be effective - and perhaps ask the remaining members of Team Machine what they would do in a certain situation to get a bit of the human element into its decision making - but the Machine is already more advanced than Samaritan - it had all the tools, it just had its hands tied behind its back - it was probably thinking how it would use them the whole time.

[Snarkette]

There's a lot more to "effective" than creating world peace -- killing everyone would accomplish that. There has to be a morality that guides choice. And the Machine has a caring father unlike Samaritan.

[kili]

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There's a lot more to "effective" than creating world peace -- killing everyone would accomplish that. There has to be a morality that guides choice

Samaritan is Javert to The Machine's Jean Valjean. Samaritan calculates the probability of somebody doing something that may be non-beneficial to its final goal and then has them terminated to stop them. Such a black and white world view needs tempering. People can change, probable isn't definitive and greater good isn't necessarily good - it is often evil. It is like with the killing of the scientist who wanted to bring back Tasmanian Tigers. Samaritan figured that would do result in harm and so it had her killed. There are other options including reasoning or bringing in legislation to govern the re-introduction of extinct animals. Samaritan would have killed Nobel and Einstein and Alexander Fleming as well - all for reasons similar to the genetic scientist and the frozen food scientist.

Just as Javert could not live in a world where somebody who had once done wrong (stolen a loaf of bread) had become a hero, Samaritan has a very simplistic view of right and wrong.

When Team Machine was working the numbers, they would try to save everybody. Finch didn't even want them killing the opposition and would not kill the Senator that set Samaritan in motion. Was Finch right or wrong about the Senator? I think Samaritan's actions prove that there is always one more "Senator" that needs to be killed resulting in a lot of death.

In other news, Samaritan also has an interesting recruitment policy. Some dude was put in jail for drunk driving when he was 17 and stays in for 12 years because he shanked somebody (or something like that). He gets out and becomes a house painter/odd jobs dude and now he is being sent out to be a sniper against a high-value target. Doesn't it take lots of training and some innate skill to be good at that? No wonder the average Samaritan agents can't hit the broad side of a barn and get mowed down by Team Machine.

[DeepRunner]

2 hours ago, kili said:

 

In other news, Samaritan also has an interesting recruitment policy. Some dude was put in jail for drunk driving when he was 17 and stays in for 12 years because he shanked somebody (or something like that). He gets out and becomes a house painter/odd jobs dude and now he is being sent out to be a sniper against a high-value target. Doesn't it take lots of training and some innate skill to be good at that? No wonder the average Samaritan agents can't hit the broad side of a barn and get mowed down by Team Machine.

Yeah, I was kind of mystified that Blackwell was chosen to take out Finch and Root ("primary" and "secondary"), as I was unaware that he had any skill with a gun, much less a high-powered rifle. But he was a bit robotic in his movements, waiting for commands from Samaritan. And we have to assume that at some point he had been trained on how to become a sniper. Also, just one tiny issue with the fact that of AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLL the streets that Root could have gone down, Samaritan knew it would be that one. What if she did a Donna Noble had turned somewhere else/gone in a different direction (nods to Whovians in the audience)? Yes, I know it worked for the story, but even a god like ( or god-like) Samaritan can't foresee every combination of possibilities and determine that such-and-such will be the exact outcome. That would seem to violate the principle of free will.

Again, it's a small thing, and, as I said with Root becoming the voice of The Machine, it's the final season, so why not?

Edited June 7, 2016 by DeepRunner

[possibilities]

The way I look at it, even, in the best case scenario, The Machine is, essentially, a living, sentient being, then she doesn't need Root's personality, she's got her own. And we really haven't seen that she is an independent being, because she's at the complete control of Finch, who decides about her capabilities. That's not my idea of the ultimate transcendence, and it certainly isn't Godlike.

Either way, Root experiences nothing because Root is dead. Maybe The Machine experiences a Root-like (or for sake of argument, Root-exact-copy) perspective, and does a 2 dimensional impression that others can interact with, but like someone already said, that's not the same as Root experiencing life for herself. And since humans interact in 3D, it's not even a simulation for her loved ones to enjoy. I know I certainly wouldn't consider a computer voice sounding like my partner to even vaguely approximate a replacement for the real thing. It's closest to someone who survived continuing to experience things and make new memories, not the deceased person making new memories by having experiences of their own. If I die, and you take on my personality, even if you get it exactly right, that doesn't make me alive, it just means you took over the life I had.

Moreover, it was all Finch's fault. He went to the cafe, he limited the Machine, whatever. Root was advocating for freeing The Machine, but she took the bullet and he still stayed in control of the decision. Maybe he should have taken the bullet. He kept giving very weak protests to others taking risks, while he refused to do what Root wanted him to do for the good of the team. He's already done his work, programmed everything, and was holding everyone back. He also said he was tired of living like this (even before Elias or Root was shot), while Root was having the time of her life. I realize that life isn't fair, but I don't get why it's so glorious to die when you so much love life, and how dying is transcendent just because someone else gets to take over your patterns and personality (and we don't know if that's even happened; all we know so far is that the Machine took Root's voice).

And why it's so wonderful that Root died, as though that is the greatest thing you can do, transcendence through death? Why not kill off the person who was holding back the Machine, if The Machine is God? Why not let Finch "transcend"? Why is it that death is the greatest thing a woman can do? And now I'm supposed to believe it makes her happy and it's what she would have wanted? If they want to kill her and call it a tragedy, that's one thing. But to tell me that it's the best thing ever? I can't buy that.

I realize that if you consider there to be a soul that is separate from the body, then you might be able to imagine that having the soul transfer to the Machine is like having it transfer to a body, and that being one with The Machine could be like being one with God. I just don't feel it, though. And they didn't really say that, either. They said She chose Root's VOICE. Big deal.We have speech synthesizers now that can do that.

[kili]

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And why it's so wonderful that Root died, as though that is the greatest thing you can do, transcendence through death?

I didn't see any of the other characters on the show thinking it was the greatest thing that Rood died. Her death (along with Elias's) is what has finally caused Finch to overthrow his self-imposed rules. Fusco clearly didn't think her death was great and I doubt Shaw or Reese will either. Root took comfort in her inevitable death in that The Machine can help remember her.

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Why not kill off the person who was holding back the Machine, if The Machine is God?

 

 

Root made the choice to take the bullet because she admires Finch and thinks his life is more important than hers. Her choice. She's like a Secret Service agent that takes a bullet for the President. That's not a job I could do, but I guess some people take some comfort in dying to save the President. IDK. I might die to save a loved one and I'd be happy about the loved one living, but not exactly happy about dying.

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Why is it that death is the greatest thing a woman can do?

I did not get that message from that show. I think we will find that her little re-writing of the code to allow The Machine to fight back will prove to be more important than her death. Her server hack to prevent them from being caught by Samaritan earlier was more important. Her compressing the machine into a suitcase was more important. Her figuring out how to use the PS4 boxes to recover the machine was more important. Root has been invaluable to the team. Her death was unfortunate. She and her abilities will be sadly missed.

I like that this show has had women who are every bit as smart, athletic and talented as their male counterparts.  I wish the woman would stop dying, but I don't think that is the last death we will see. I think that Fusco will survive, but I'm beginning to doubt that Finch will. He has too much to answer for and will have a hard time living with what he is about to do. They won't kill Shaw again and Bear had better have an immunity clause.

[possibilities]

In the producer interviews, they keep saying this is the ultimate wonderful end for Root, and they are very proud of it. They seem to think it's delicious and that it's the best way to honor her and that it is the perfect end. Some viewers have also been saying she would have wanted it this way and it would make her happy. I agree that not all the viewers or characters say that, though.

I understand dying for a cause or a loved one. I just don't think it is a happy ending or the greatest thing the writers could have theoretically come up with in terms of making the person who does it happy, or with the idea that it's a triumph and a glory, or that Root herself would have chosen it as her first and best option the way the producers think it is. And I don't feel the "she's one with" part that some others do.

It's a fictional construction, so there's lots of ways they could have gone, and they chose one that I don't personally think is as glorious as the writers say they think it is, is what I'm saying. I get that many disagree with me, I just wanted to say why I feel the way I do about it.

I do get that in real life you don't get to choose everything and make it how you want. I just think that when you write fiction, I like it better when you at least don't choose the most tragic, sacrificial (and moreover stereotypical) route and call it apotheosis.

[yellowfred]

I don't think the show is trying to have it that it's a good thing Root died.  It is a tragedy, but it's also a choice that she made.  She chose to put herself in danger to save Harold.  I don't know if she knew, when she did that, that it would mean her death, but I'm confident that knowing that wouldn't have changed her decision.

As far as the transcendence stuff goes, I don't particularly buy into it.  At the same time, though, I still think it's significant that the Machine chose her voice.  Root saw the Machine as a god, her god.  The Machine having a voice was something Root wanted even before she'd spoken to Her.  Having the Machine finally get a voice choose hers would probably have made her ecstatic.

So, basically, yeah, Root's death is tragic and it's unfair and, honestly, once the dust is settled from this season, I might look back and feel like it was cheap.  For the moment, though, I'm happy for her that she got to go out on her own terms, that she went out a hero, and that the Machine is choosing to remember her in a way that Root would have wanted.

[Cthulhudrew]

Only comment I have to make is this:

If a car with a machine gun mounted on it is chasing and firing on another car while I'm driving on the same street, I am sure as heck not going to keep going the same direction. I'm pulling over and stopping or driving down the closest side street.

I'm sure that this isn't the first show to do something like that, but it's the first time I've ever noticed it, and it was just ridiculous.

[Netfoot]

8 hours ago, Cthulhudrew said:

Only comment I have to make is this:

If a car with a machine gun mounted on it is chasing and firing on another car while I'm driving on the same street, I am sure as heck not going to keep going the same direction. I'm pulling over and stopping or driving down the closest side street.

I'm sure that this isn't the first show to do something like that, but it's the first time I've ever noticed it, and it was just ridiculous.

Happens all the time!  In NYC.  Apparently...

[Syme]

On 06/19/2016 at 3:02 AM, Cthulhudrew said:

Only comment I have to make is this:

If a car with a machine gun mounted on it is chasing and firing on another car while I'm driving on the same street, I am sure as heck not going to keep going the same direction. I'm pulling over and stopping or driving down the closest side street.

I'm sure that this isn't the first show to do something like that, but it's the first time I've ever noticed it, and it was just ridiculous.

If you are being fired upon by a M2 {which it seemed to be...} or even a .30cal, AND you are not in a Bradley or M1a, it will not matter.