S04.E11: Dinner for Seven

[RedFiat]

On 5/30/2016 at 2:22 PM, sistermagpie said:

Have we really seen him drop much info about his parents? He likes to hang out with Stan because he's got games and videos Henry likes and we've seen them talk about women. The only thing he said about his parents is that his mother burns instant macaroni and his dad travels a lot. The traveling thing was a clue that Stan noted, but Henry thinks his parents are boring and normal.

Admittedly Henry is oblivious to his parents secret lives, unlike Paige, but for me, it is in the conversations with Stan that we see a kid who is  troubled by his parents absences, (acts out by breaking into his neighbor house) wants to be an FBI agent like Stan, and befriends Stan in a way that is surprising, choosing to hang out with him instead of his peers, assumes he is always welcomed for dinner, and talking to a man his fathers age about women.

In many ways, Henry connects with Stan in the way that Philip connects with Kimmie. But unlike Philip who is working an asset, Stan is not keying into why Henry has such great admiration for him. For Stan, Henry is a nice diversion and an ego boost from the ugly reality around him. But Henry like Kimmie are lonely children looking for love and acceptance from someone older because they are painfully aware they are partitioned from their own family, and yet are truth tellers in their isolation. We are led to believe that Henry is in his room listening to music whenever the family wants to discuss their real business in hushed tones. Henry may not be as aware as Paige, but something tells me he is not completely blind. 

Stan has been content to revert to a sort of arrested adolescence in hanging out with Henry rather than to really understand why Henry befriended him. Stan encourages Mathew and Henry to be friends, but Mathew is not so keen. Certainly not as keen as Stan. Henry and Stan are together in their lack of awareness of the situation around them, but I think if the story turns, if or when Stan tunes into the asset that he has in Henry, he would learn much more about the Jennings. 

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, Gella said:

I actually don't think Jenningses use Stan much for information. Yes, occasionally he randomly says something that Philip reports, but mostly Philip leaves him alone in that regard. I would imagine trying to ply a trained counterintelligence agent for information would be very risky. He is not Martha and could easily pick up exactly what is happening. 

Yes, it definitely seems like that's their stance on him. If he says something, fine. Philip never presses to hear about work. Likewise I'm sure the Jennings would appreciate Paige telling them anything Matthew happens to say, but telling her to fish for information would be dangerous.

6 hours ago, RedFiat said:

Admittedly Henry is oblivious to his parents secret lives, unlike Paige, but for me, it is in the conversations with Stan that we see a kid who is  troubled by his parents absences, (acts out by breaking into his neighbor house) wants to be an FBI agent like Stan, and befriends Stan in a way that is surprising, choosing to hang out with him instead of his peers, assumes he is always welcomed for dinner, and talking to a man his fathers age about women.

Answering this part in the Henry thread...

[Ina123]

I spent Memorial Day weekend binge watching The Americans again. I'm not finished but pretty far along.

I'm going back to something I've brought up before, the mole on Elizabeth's lip. So many of us have feelings of disbelief with some plots and some scenes, well, that mole is mine. It was brought back to me because my brother happened to come and sit with me and watch some of the episodes. He had never seen it before but was a big Felicity fan and recognized Keri R. He mentioned that he always found the mole on he lip as "sexy". Well, I hadn't thought of that but it got me to thinking about how so many women find the space between Michael Strahan's teeth as "sexy" or, God forbid, the unibrow on the basketball guy. All of which could be corrected with plastic surgery, braces and just a razor between the eyes.

All I'm saying is I just saw the episodes where Sanford Prince gives the FBI a description of Elizabeth in her Elvira disquise and he says nothing about the mole on her lip. Then the Weinberger maid confesses and gives Stan (FBI) a description of P and E and she doesn't mention the mole either. Obviously, if either had said anything about a mole on the lip or the sketches showed it, Stan is going to think of Elizabeth. He HAS to have noticed it.

I love the show, but I have to suspend my disbelief every week that she would not have had that mole removed. It can't be disquised. Is it a deal breaker for the show for me? No. But it annoys me sometimes.

[madam magpie]

I don't see why she couldn't cover it up with lipstick or concealer. There are lots of photos of Keri Russell where the mole isn't obvious unless you know it's there. Plus, it's pretty light-colored. I can see why someone would miss it in a description.

[Darrenbrett]

Now that Kerri and Matthew have had their baby (congrats to them!), remind me, when does filming for next season begin? Just curious how long a break they get before having to jump back into the drama - literally. 

Edited June 1, 2016 by Darrenbrett

[SlackerInc]

On 5/31/2016 at 11:39 AM, jrlr said:

Please don't blame your thinking about rape on your left wing family.  I came from exactly the same background as you did, and to say that rape isn't true in the majority of cases is neither right nor left - it's just ignorant.  

Yes, that would be ignorant if it bore any resemblance to what I actually said.  I guess I need to spell it out more carefully: I am not disputing that rapes happen (WTF?!?) or that they are a serious, vicious crime.  I am disputing the notion that they are simply an expression of violence that has nothing to do with sexual desire.  In most cases, I don't believe that's true.  It's kind of like saying someone who goes around beating people up and taking their wallets and other valuables is just doing it for the violence.  Maybe, but more likely the violence is just the tool they use to get the thing they want (wallets, or sex with someone they find attractive, who wouldn't agree to have sex with them voluntarily).

[madam magpie]

What you're doing is misunderstanding the point of rape and looking at it from the nonrapist point of view. Still ignorant, but in a different way. It's about power for the most part, and yes, sexual predators use sex as a means of gaining power. In fact, a lot of crime, even muggings,  are about power rather than need. I'm sure there are some poor rapists out there who just want to get some, but for the most part, they want to dominate someone using sex and violence. That's what turns them on. By your definition, Timochev raped Elizabeth in the pilot simply because she was pretty, he was horny, and she wouldn't sleep with him under nonrapey circumstances (which I actually think she might have; a high-ranking, good-looking KGB captain seems exactly her type)...not because she was young, vulnerable, female, and offered up for his taking by their superiors. The fact that he sparred with her beforehand and dominated her that way too is irrelevant?

Pretty much all research and experts disagree with you, but by all means, stick to opinions.

Edited June 2, 2016 by madam magpie

[BW Manilowe]

On June 1, 2016 at 5:10 PM, Darrenbrett said:

Now that Kerri and Matthew have had their baby (congrats to them!), remind me, when does filming for next season begin? Just curious how long a break they get before having to jump back into the drama - literally. 

They haven't announced when filming will start yet. Or even when S5 will be airing next year. At least not that I can remember. All that's been announced is a renewal for S5 & S6; S6 will be the final season; S5 will air in 2017 & S6 in 2018.

By the way, since this didn't have to do with the episode, it should've gone in 1 of the more "general" show-related threads instead.

[Aspsusa]

On 5/30/2016 at 5:05 AM, Gella said:

Pelmeni are always with meat. They are like little meat dumplings (beef, veal, chicken, etc). The non-meat version is called vareniki (potatoes, sour cherries, cottage cheese). In Ukraine, at least from what I remember, they called the same things galushki. There are also lazy vareniki, but those are basically gnocchi made with cottage cheese. Pirog is a stuffed large pie. Pirozhok is a little stuffed pie, about the size of empanada, either sweat or savoury, and either baked or deep fried. 

Pierogy on the other hand are Polish stuffed dumplings. They are somewhat bigger and the dough is thicker. They are pretty common in the USA and I notice a lot of TV shows use them as a "Russian" dish. 

I would expect someone like Gabriel to know the difference. 

Thanks! It might be that the pelmeni/vareniki distinction is getting a bit lost in translation here in Finland (&Estonia - the places I mostly see pelmeni/vareniki for sale or on the menu); as I'm pretty sure I've seen pelmeni with kapusta (cabbage) and other vegetarian (savoury) fillings. And in the Ukraine (mostly visited Lviv) I've only encountered vareniki - there's even a semi-fastfood restaurants called "IVF - International Varenniki Fund"  (Міжнародний вареничний фонд in Ukrainian - I don't know if MBF is funny too) .

"Lazy vareniki" sounds a bit like the slovak/czech "halusky" (they also have "pirohy", but seems less common).

And yes, a pirog is a pie/pastry! In Finnish and Swedish we use the same word (Piirakka - Pirog) for both large and small, covered and open. In Finnish the same word is even used for western types pies (quiche lorraine, applepie, lime etc), but in Swedish "pirog" is eastern style and "paj" is western style.

I was extremely confused when I first encountered "pierogies" in an online discussion with Americans about food... :-)

I don't know what to do to be able to forget this blunder of the writers - it's ridiculous how much it disturbed me. 

[sistermagpie]

6 hours ago, Aspsusa said:

I don't know what to do to be able to forget this blunder of the writers - it's ridiculous how much it disturbed me. 

It really is one of the most glaring things--you'd think it'd be easily checked. They so rarely drop information like that it's weird when they do and it's wrong.

Personally, I've never gotten over Oleg casually saying that he didn't get to be a Young Pioneer because he was rich. Um...what? Of course he was a Young Pioneer--whether or not he went to one of the summer camps. And that was Costa Ronin saying those lines. Pretty sure he was a kid in the USSR!

Edited June 3, 2016 by sistermagpie

[Aspsusa]

5 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Personally, I've never gotten over Oleg casually saying that he didn't get to be a Young Pioneer because he was rich. Um...what? Of course he was a Young Pioneer--whether or not he went to one of the summer camps. And that was Costa Ronin saying those lines. Pretty sure he was a kid in the USSR!

Since I don't speak Russian I just figured it was condensed for the subtitles and what he really meant/said was that he didn't get to go to camp or otherwise be very active. Took the "rich family" to be shorthand for privileged, painted the situation in my head as his family taking him with them on trips etc - maybe he got to meet Maya Plisetskaya, hike in Czechoslovakia's High Tatras, do all sorts of cool and unusual stuff, but always wanted to be a regular Young Pioneer like all his classmates.

[Milburn Stone]

On May 25, 2016 at 10:05 PM, DrSpaceman73 said:

I was underwhelmed by the dinner.  Not much came of it.

I loved the entire episode, but if I would have changed anything, it would be to linger on the dinner longer, so I agree with you. Watching it was excruciating, but excruciating in the way that Hitchcock can be excruciating, i.e. exquisitely so. Longer would have been even better. :)

Edited June 5, 2016 by Milburn Stone

[Umbelina]

I think something will come of it.  It was tense, and that was good, but I don't think we've heard the end of that dinner.  At all.

[Gella]

On June 3, 2016 at 3:36 PM, Aspsusa said:

Since I don't speak Russian I just figured it was condensed for the subtitles and what he really meant/said was that he didn't get to go to camp or otherwise be very active. Took the "rich family" to be shorthand for privileged, painted the situation in my head as his family taking him with them on trips etc - maybe he got to meet Maya Plisetskaya, hike in Czechoslovakia's High Tatras, do all sorts of cool and unusual stuff, but always wanted to be a regular Young Pioneer like all his classmates.

I don't remember what he said in Russian. I think it was not being able to go to the summer camp. I don't remember being disturbed by it as much so it couldn't have been egregious. Everyone was a young pioneer. It didn't matter how high up your family was. You were Oktyabryonok, then you became a Young Pioneer and then you joined Komsomol. Otherwise you didn't get into college and most certainly didn't get any plum USA postings. 

[Mrs peel]

On ‎5‎/‎26‎/‎2016 at 0:03 AM, izabella said:

I fully expect something to come of Pastor Tim and his wife meeting the FBI agent who lives across the street from the Russian spies they've been dealing with. 

Didn't Patty tell Young-Hee that she didn't have a mother?  That it was just her brother and dad?  Some horrible sob story that made Young-Hee remark how Patty brings a party down.  I guess they counted on Young-Hee never mentioning that to her husband.  Their plan had a lot of holes.

Phillip introduced the woman as Patty's step-mother, so they covered that.  I suspect if Don hadn't allowed the "parents" to stay in the office, there would have been a second conversation with Don later....as in, the money isn't enough....

Killing the mugger/potential rapist made me wonder why Elizabeth doesn't just have a back-story of being interested in self-defense and martial arts.  That would certainly explain her skills. 

For the last several seasons they have made Stan such a doofus I forget he managed to live undercover for 3 years prior to coming to DC.  I originally thought his "I don't want you Oleg to be on my conscience" was a sign he was losing his interest in the FBI, but after reading here am wondering if this is the result of reviewing intelligence about how the Afghan War (and other stuff) was tearing the USSR apart.  Oleg's personal involvement through his brother's death could lead Stan and the FBI to think he might provide information.  And if not, well, it ends a useless attempt to obtain intelligence (and stops Stan from continually being reminded of Nina). 

I think Elizabeth is concerned Don and Young He's  (sp?)marriage will fall apart.  But I think Phillip or someone else will call Mary Kay to report Patty's death, so she won't continue to wonder why Patty isn't calling her back.

Quote

As Madame Magpie said, first training is to run, escape, never be taken to a second location, but if you have to fight, fight for real.

My condo had a security training with a local cop a couple of years.  His mantra was the same, " never agree to go with the robber/mugger/etc,, because it never gets better."  Make the bad guy do whatever he is planning to do at that first site, which is likely less secluded than where he wants to take you.  My father, former NYPD, always said "kick and run, but run fast!"

[wendyg]

What I find really attractive about Keri Russell is her voice - unlike many American actors, she has a really rich voice that she really uses well. Much more like a British actor, in fact.

[Roseanna]

On ‎26‎.‎5‎.‎2016 at 7:19 AM, shura said:

Why did Elizabeth assume this operation will destroy Young Hee? It doesn't have to be this way. Patty disappears, Don pulls his shit together eventually, and they live on. Young Hee doesn't have to know the details.

 

On ‎26‎.‎5‎.‎2016 at 7:30 AM, snarktini said:

My guess is she fears -- and I agree -- that Don actually will not actually pull his shit together. Even if she never finds out, his sense of shame about the the affair and now of her death, will cause him to pull away even more. It may not fully destroy them, but it could damage their marriage and family on a fundamental level.

 

On ‎26‎.‎5‎.‎2016 at 10:43 AM, scartact said:

I sort of wonder if we are fully finished with the Young Hee storyline (I do suspect we are), but I keep thinking about the cultural magnitude of shame in Korean culture and how much this will fully effect Don, Young Hee, and their family. I don't think they'll so easily resume their normal lives, and sometimes this shame is even enough for people to kill themselves and their families. There's an article I read in the LA Times about how the father in this Korean family felt such shame for putting his family in great debt and his inability to pay it back that he fatally shot his son and wife, shot his daughter (but she somehow managed to survive), and then turned to gun on himself.

 

On ‎26‎.‎5‎.‎2016 at 3:28 PM, DrSpaceman73 said:

The situation with Don was pretty convoluted in the end. 

But recall this was not likely the plan from the beginning.  She spent some time "babysitting" for them to get access to the house and then try to find someway or some weakness to blackmail him, he just didn't give them much to go on.  So as a result they had to create a situation to blackmail him, which caused the whole convoluted story.  And even 99% of that story they created was not true.  He never slept with her and she was not pregnaent, obviously didn't kill herself, etc.  The convoluted nature of the situation is more a testament to the fact that Don probably was not a good target to begin with because they couldn't find much on him to use and had to create this whole big drama instead. 

 

On ‎26‎.‎5‎.‎2016 at 3:41 PM, stagmania said:

I think this is kind of the point. Elizabeth worked that family for, what? Nine or ten months? This convoluted shame plan was a last resort because they couldn't find a solid or straightforward way in, and ultimately, it may not have even worked. I don't think we're supposed to be all that impressed with it as an operation. On top of that, Elizabeth lost a friend and potentially ruined a marriage, all for nothing. That's going to weigh on her; it already has been.

I agree with Sharkniti: Don feels so much shame that he can't get over it - and it's this that can destroy his marriage with Young Hee, not the deed he thinks he did. In that sense Elizabeth blames herself too much - but in another sense, she doesn't as, studying Don for months, she knew how he would react and used it against him.

In the end, however, I think that while Elizabeth is responsible for how she misused Young Hee and Don's trust and friendship, Don is responsible for his own reaction.       

[Roseanna]

On ‎26‎.‎5‎.‎2016 at 7:13 AM, crashdown said:

Actually, I think that the pointless conversations are precisely the point--they're little moments of unexpected connection, and I think one of the overarching themes of the show is that, in the end, that's all any of us have.  It's those moments that give everything meaning, not abstract cosmic dramas between God and Satan, or between the United States and the Soviet Union.  Stan was talking to Oleg the person, not Oleg the Evil Soviet.  

 

On ‎26‎.‎5‎.‎2016 at 9:51 AM, Dowel Jones said:

I had a different take on the conversation than others here.  I thought it was Stan saying, in effect, "You guys killed my friend and my boss, and there is no way we can ever be friendly again after that.  You are the enemy.  Adios."  Remember, the last thing Gaad said to Stan was "Remember who these people are."

 

On ‎26‎.‎5‎.‎2016 at 10:00 AM, Umbelina said:

I understand your issues.  Here are my reasons that they didn't bother me much.

Stan told Philip about a FORMER agent, not a current FBI agent, and only that he'd been killed and that Stan suspects the KGB.  Nothing about the rest of the FBI suspecting anything, etc.  He did tell his own son about a secretary being a spy, but that too seems both normal and minor nearly 8 months later.

I'm still not sure what Stan and Oleg were doing there, but it felt raw and real.  He feels guilty over murdering that nice KGB guy for no reason.  His office is pressuring him to turn Oleg or blackmail him, he's had enough of death and doesn't want Oleg's on his conscience as well.  He's pooped.

I agree with Umbelina. Although Stan said to Phillip that "they are animals" when speaking of Gaad's murder, the tone of the conversation with Oleg was quite different. For the first time Stan showed regret for murdering Vlad, that is he acknowledged that he had been an animal, just like the other side. He also spoke about all the offers the strife between FBI and KGB had caused, understanding for the first time how bad it has been for both sides. And he also acknowledged that he had sacrificed his marriage for his job.

Unlike Dowel Jones, I think that it's just because Stan doesn't follow Gaad's line but regards Oleg as an friend, he said farewell to him. He refused to blackmail Oleg although he had been ordered to do so - and that's the only way he can meet a KGB guy.   

[Roseanna]

On ‎26‎.‎5‎.‎2016 at 6:05 AM, TimWil said:

then I realized that this was the woman in her 50s with computer skills from Moscow who was mentioned by Tatiana in her post-coital discussion with Oleg in last week's episode. 

I wonder how one could find an older female computer expert in Moscow in 1983. Wouldn't they at that time have been much younger also in the West? But this is a show... 

Edited August 10, 2017 by Roseanna

[sistermagpie]

9 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I wonder how one could find an older female computer expert in Moscow in 1983. Wouldn't they at that time have been much younger also in the West? But this is a show... 

That's the first thing you'd think, but then there were a lot of people who would have started out in computers earlier, like in the 60s at least. One of the characters in Hidden Figures, based on a real person, got herself out in front of computer work at NASA in the 60s, and when she did it she wasn't all that young.