The Topic Of Ultimate Damon Lindelof Judgment

[David T. Cole]

Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't?

[scrb]

If we get a bunch of flashbacks, flash forwards and then a bunch of mysteries that is never satisfactorily explained we'd know he's fucking with us.

 

Do it once shame on you, do it twice ...

[shrewd.buddha]

Ugh, this guy again ..

 

He irritated me with Lost (especially with the podcasts , the self-congratulatory hype in general, rattlesnake in a mailbox, etc, etc).

But he crossed the line with Prometheus - he made scientists behave stupidly in order to make ridiculous plot points 'work' and have OMG moments that make little sense in retrospect. 

 

DL's writing philosophy seems to be "not knowing is half the fun." (To steal from Sheldon Cooper -- maybe that was the motto of his community college.)

But it ultimately doesn't  work when the writers don't know the how or why of the mysteries they build their shows around. Smoke Monsters? The Frozen Donkey Wheels of Time Travel? I swear it's not Purgatory, but maybe it is? Give me a break.

 

Does he purposely not formulate explanations because he thinks a divine idea will emerge as the series goes on? Or does he think a kick-ass premiere will give him a grace period to pull something out of out of his ass when audience frustration and dissatisfaction reaches some tipping point? 

 

He also seems to encourage online guessing games to keep the rabid, can't-get-enough segment of the audience preoccupied. It's as if he thinks he has cleverly found a means of making the fans entertain themselves while giving him the credit. 

 

Now he has source material that seems ready-made for his style of story telling. He can blame the book's author for all the logic gaps and non-answers to rapidly multiplying questions... I doubt I can be tempted to jump on the DL train again -- I will probably only follow the reviews and forums. If it generates Game of Thrones levels of positive buzz, maybe .. maybe I will catch up..

 

But then again, I have the same flabbergasted reaction whenever M. Night Shyamalan lands another high profile gig .. 

[Edna Crandall]

He also seems to encourage online guessing games to keep the rabid, can't-get-enough segment of the audience preoccupied. It's as if he thinks he has cleverly found a means of making the fans entertain themselves while giving him the credit.

 

Until those fans criticize him, then he acts all butt-hurt. All he wants is our unquestioning love and devotion, is that so much to ask for?

 

I'll be watching because I enjoyed the book and I like some of the actors involved, but I'm certainly expecting to be annoyed by the whole thing too. 

[scrb]

From the Slate review:

 

 

Those familiar with Lost will recognize some of Lindelof’s trademarks—flashbacks, specific character focused episodes, unexplained slightly supernatural incidents that do not exist in the book, and, yes, a huge unsolved mystery. The novel never explains the Sudden Departure. Lindelof, however, has promised that he will answer this question for the show. I am totally riveted by Lindelof’s blockbuster-grade repetition compulsion—he has written about how traumatic he found the response to the Lost finale, and so has decided to … do it all over again, taking on another series that hinges on a giant metaphysical conundrum—but I am not at all convinced The Leftovers needs to answer this question any more than the novel did.

 

Hmm, the reviewer is dubious about DL's deviations from the book.

 

http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/television/2014/06/hbo_s_the_leftovers_created_by_damon_lindelof_reviewed.html

Positive or hopeful review by Tim Goodman (Hollywood Reporter) but has this caveat:

 

 

 

Now, the meta part of The Leftovers comes from Lindelof, who was executive producer and writer on Lost (with Carlton Cuse, after creator J.J. Abrams left to make movies), the poster series for asking three times as many questions as it ultimately answered and, to some, for going out with a convoluted, disappointing ending — for which viewers blamed Lindelof.
Given that, and Lindelof's own well-chronicled struggle of dealing with that "failure" and people's inability to let it go, him shepherding another series with a number of unanswered questions and perhaps a "big picture" mystery will no doubt make The Leftovers one of the most over-analyzed, navel-gazed shows in history.

[JulesKikiCobb]

In a recent-ish New York Times article about the show, Lindelof came off angsty: "We have not written a script or produced an episode yet where I go: ‘Booyah! That’s what I’m talking about!’ They’ve all been a gargantuan struggle."

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/01/magazine/damon-lindelof-leftovers-lost.html

 

 

[scrb]

So maybe he wants us to think he truly wants to redeem himself, rather than laugh at us from the top of the piles of his Lost money.

[walnutqueen]

I saw some "Making of" special and was not at all impressed with all the gushing about his improv style.  He has NO IDEA what the fuck he is doing or where he is going, just like Lost.  Everyone's just hoping the viewers forget about asking if this is the Rapture and just care about the characters' stories.   Um ... no.

[ganesh]

I watched Lost, but wasn't a huge fan. I knew it wasn't all going to hold up because it was impossible for everything to add up. One thing that always annoys me is the "It was the journey" crap that people spout when a show is incomprehensible. Ok Lost had some cool characters, but so what?

 

I think it's too big of a question to leave unanswered. Not that there has to be something definitive and totally concrete, but they need to know before going into the show if they will answer the question and how, and what the hell the answer is. 

 

I'm kind of mystified at how TPTBs on shows in general don't have bibles for their shows nowadays. Or don't recognize that a lot of viewers pore over details and talk about the show online. I guess this should up better than Lost since it's based on a book. 

[bravelittletoaster]

Showrunners definitely still do bibles for their shows. Not the ones who suck at their jobs, tho.

[Tim Thomason]

I was okay with Lost, even in its latter seasons, because I understand they were serving multiple masters: those who wanted answers (most of the fans), those who wanted pure excitement and enjoyment (most of the fans), and those who wanted money (the network). The show was extended beyond its expected end date, and that's what threw the time travel in the mix, and Lindelof wasn't the only one in charge (nor was he the only one in charge of Prometheus).

 

This is HBO, not ABC, and Mr. Lindelof again isn't the only one in charge of the show, and he's basing it on a book. I'm not sure if he's basing the first season or the whole show on the book, nor do I know the book's plot at all (if it even can support a show like this), but I like to imagine that the overall structure has been decided, and the few twists have been gone over, and Lindelof and crew can sit back with their lead time and hopefully not be persuaded or dismayed by fan outcry on where the story should go.

 

This is a show about emotional reactions to a single metaphysical event, and I hope it, for the most part, stays that way. The Walking Dead is a similar, if goofier, show, and they both have the capacity to continue in perpetuity, unlike Lost, without ever having to explain or solve their specific crises. That should free up the crew to tell the story they want to tell, and I appreciate that the first two episodes were low on flashbacks. Next week we're going to explore a new main character who has only made a few intriguing small appearances (Christopher Eccleston's character), and that should be the test to see if Lindelof falls back on flashbacks or not to tell this story.

[scrb]

Well the critical opinion on The Leftovers has swung around, gets raves everywhere.  But some reviewers confess they don't know everything that's going on but the show is great because it depicts "loss" so beautifully, how great the actors are, how great musical choices they make, etc.

Then they have these cool set pieces like the beginning of season 2 with the cave woman and now in the season 3 opener of the true-believer 19th century woman who was mocked and shunned, even by her own family, after repeatedly waiting to be sucked up from her thatched rooftop by God to Heaven or whatever.

You have to wonder how it will end.  They previewed 7 of the 8 episodes to the critics but not the final episode apparently.

But we saw losses on Lost, all with emotional, dirge music and saw extraordinary things.  And many viewers were still pissed off with how the ending was handled, how they failed to explain things, after saying they had the show all mapped out, how questions will be answered, etc. 

Do we still know what the smoke monster was?

In The Leftovers, we won't know what the Sudden Departure was -- some religious event, mass alien abduction, global psychosis, etc.  But Lindelof and Perrotta have gone around strewing more mysteries, like Kevin's multiple resurrections.  Are they writing more checks which they can't pay for?  Will they even try to explain some of these other minor miracles too?

[ganesh]

Something like what the smoke monster was is ok for me not to actually answer. I say it was some manifestation of pettiness and cynicism in the world. As much as I don't think the show is worth much of any of the praise it gets, I've been consistent in that they don't need to explain the departure.

18 minutes ago, scrb said:

In The Leftovers, we won't know what the Sudden Departure was -- some religious event, mass alien abduction, global psychosis, etc.  But Lindelof and Perrotta have gone around strewing more mysteries, like Kevin's multiple resurrections.  Are they writing more checks which they can't pay for?  Will they even try to explain some of these other minor miracles too?

And that's the problem with both shows. Not everything has to be super complex and interrelated. 

I thought they were going to show that this type of thing happened in the past over multiple, smaller events, which would have been cool. 

So saying "the show doesn't need to provide answers" is fair to a point. They're clearly just piling on with out any intent to answer anything, and then they're going to hide behind the 'it's the journey' canard. I don't feel like they did much in the way of world building so that we wouldn't question too much that everything was just thrown in there. 

If they wanted to do a show about dealing with loss, then this should have been an anthology type series featuring Nora. 

[Macbeth]

On 6/30/2014 at 9:03 PM, walnutqueen said:

I saw some "Making of" special and was not at all impressed with all the gushing about his improv style.  He has NO IDEA what the fuck he is doing or where he is going, just like Lost.  Everyone's just hoping the viewers forget about asking if this is the Rapture and just care about the characters' stories.   Um ... no.

I got sucked within the last 2 months (binge watching) without knowing I was dealing with Lost's creator.  His shows should come with a warning labels like cigarettes do.

[walnutqueen]

43 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

I got sucked within the last 2 months (binge watching) without knowing I was dealing with Lost's creator.  His shows should come with a warning labels like cigarettes do.

First off, kadooz for you pulling a quote from 2014, which made me scratch my head in consternation before I remembered what the fuck shitshow I was posting about, way back then.  I am also a suckee; watched from start to finish hoping for a Payday bar (I'd rather have a Coffee Crisp!), and this show let me down.  THEY LIED TO US ALL.

Bates Motel finally cleared my palate about eyeliner boy, and Colony is going a little way into saving Sawyer - he just needs to shrug his shirt off his sloping shoulders a little more often ... [/shallow]

Edited May 1, 2017 by walnutqueen
"Y'"s matter

[Macbeth]

1 hour ago, walnutqueen said:

First off, kadooz for you pulling a quote from 2014, which made me scratch my head in consternation before I remembered what the fuck shitshow I was posting about, way back then.  I am also a suckee; watched from start to finish hoping for a Payday bar (I'd rather have a Coffee Crisp!), and this show let me down.  THEY LIED TO US ALL.

My apologies WalnutQueen for the shock and dragging you into the present with Lindelof's "Leftovers."  I wish I knew he was behind this show before I started watching it.  Lindelof continues to lie.

They don't sell Coffee Crisp where I am from.  But I do like Kit Kats.

[walnutqueen]

3 hours ago, Macbeth said:

My apologies WalnutQueen for the shock and dragging you into the present with Lindelof's "Leftovers."  I wish I knew he was behind this show before I started watching it.  Lindelof continues to lie.

They don't sell Coffee Crisp where I am from.  But I do like Kit Kats.

No apologies necessary - it's nice to have a blast from the past.  Kit Kats are my "condolence" bars - reminding me of my regrets for leaving Canada and Coffee Crisps oh so many years ago.  This sunny SoCal clime and lack of energy bills barely makes up for that loss ... ;-)

[scrb]

So far, the finale hasn't elicited any strong reactions like those following the ending of Lost.

OTOH, Leftovers didn't run as long or have nearly as many viewers as Lost did.  Lost viewers had a much longer time and more content to build up an emotional investment in that show, so that show had a much greater potential for letdown.

They certainly turned around the critical reception to the show with the second season.  Third season was well-received but not as strongly as the second season.

I think the acting performances was a big part of what eventually became the positive response by the critics to the show.  I remember an early rave for Eccleston's performance in season 1.

Was the acting strong because of the material they had to work with or in spite of it?

[shapeshifter]

4 minutes ago, scrb said:

So far, the finale hasn't elicited any strong reactions like those following the ending of Lost.

OTOH, Leftovers didn't run as long or have nearly as many viewers as Lost did.  Lost viewers had a much longer time and more content to build up an emotional investment in that show, so that show had a much greater potential for letdown.

They certainly turned around the critical reception to the show with the second season.  Third season was well-received but not as strongly as the second season.

I think the acting performances was a big part of what eventually became the positive response by the critics to the show.  I remember an early rave for Eccleston's performance in season 1.

Was the acting strong because of the material they had to work with or in spite of it?

I thought the final season got the most buzz, if not also critical acclaim, no?

I think both the concept and its execution (i.e., the writing) gave the actors a lot to work with.

[ganesh]

I'm closing out the series this week because I need to complete it. I've put it off for months because there were far more interesting shows for me to watch. Is the music in this third season just overbearing? It's distracting me a ton. 

[BooBear]

I always felt like Lost was massively interfered with by the network. So to me it always seemed like the greatness diminished because they had to follow decisions they didn't really make.  Here, especially in season two (season one was interfered with by having to follow the novel) DL's greatness came out. I still say that "international assassin" was brilliant. I wasn't completely thrilled with season three only because I felt the ending was somewhat weak. 

I find the greatness of the Leftovers was the oddity of it and I feel, emotional pay off. Something that so many shows are afraid to do.  For example, that Kevin's "dreams" in this world happened. Three times. That in this story, Mark Linn Baker shows up and is flat out emotionally broken.  Issues like mental instability aren't just used as "devices" they were drawn out to ultimate conclusions and unflinchingly portrayed as reality. 

Then the acting was very strong. Anne Dowd, Carrie C***, all knocked it out of the park.  I also happened to adore the music. I don't think international assassin had some annoying music but I thought that added to the bizarre sense of exhilaration that Kevin was supposed to be feeling but also... the audience was feeling. 

All of that being said, this show only really had three seasons (or less) in it and I was glad HBO stopped them from dragging it out.

[ganesh]

6 hours ago, BooBear said:

 

I always felt like Lost was massively interfered with by the network. So to me it always seemed like the greatness diminished because they had to follow decisions they didn't really make. 

 

From what came out when the series ended (Lost) it seemed like TPTBs had a ton of control over the show. They were the ones who set the episode # to close out the series, for example. The only interference I could think of was the actor who got the DUI was killed off in S2, but that's it, and I don't even know if that was from the network. 

I don't have any strong feelings otherwise because I figured this was how the show was going to be played out.