Season 12 Spoilers, Speculation and Anticipation

[normasm]

Yeah, Franky, some of us were speculating if this had to do with Matthew's "morbid depression" comment a week or so back. Sad.

[Lebanna]

20 minutes ago, normasm said:

Yeah, Franky, some of us were speculating if this had to do with Matthew's "morbid depression" comment a week or so back. Sad.

*Head explodes* Everything is really starting to fall into place.

[Droogie]

18 minutes ago, normasm said:

Yeah, Franky, some of us were speculating if this had to do with Matthew's "morbid depression" comment a week or so back. Sad.

Do you mean as in, he was bummed over these events?  Hmm.  I imagine it did upset him, kind soul that he is.  I'll bet everyone was upset by it.  It'll be hard to sell the whole "gosh, the cast and crew all love each other so much" thing they've always had going.

I don't get why they couldn't have gone to their respective corners to cool off and then settled it like gentlemen with a proper apology.  Because going to agents and network heads screams "dog with a bone" to me -- not that I'm excusing assault; please don't misunderstand.  But Virgil does know this is a steady gig, right?  And that Thomas is essentially a major factor in the success of it?  

I just checked Twitter.  Virg is hardly looking like a hero (for good or for ill). 

Still wondering how it came to kicking...

[ReidFan]

what about VW's tweet about 'making your bed and having to lie in it' from a couple weeks ago.....

[Droogie]

Well, I can't see Virg's Twitter.  What a little *****.  Deal with it privately and show some class.  You got your slice.

[JMO]

14 minutes ago, Droogie said:

Well, I can't see Virg's Twitter.  What a little *****.  Deal with it privately and show some class.  You got your slice.

FYI, Droogie, since you can't see them.  A selection of recent tweets.  A mature person would simply have exacted whatever they presumed to be justice and been done with it.  Someone else would do what you see below.  

 

Virgil Williams ‏@VirgilWilliams  Jul 25Los Angeles, CA

Sometimes people mistake my kindness for weakness. And that is a mistake.

 

Virgil Williams ‏@VirgilWilliams  Jul 29Los Angeles, CA

Be careful how you make your bed. One day you will have to lie in it.

 

Virgil Williams ‏@VirgilWilliams  Aug 2

This dude @larryteng is the homie. A pro's pro. Real talk. #CriminalMinds #Willifer

 

Virgil Williams ‏@VirgilWilliams  Aug 9

Virgil Williams Retweeted Native Am Proverbs ⊕

Amen.  ---in response to a quoted tweet about a Shawnee proverb:  "Respect everyone, but lower yourself to no one."

[Droogie]

 GOOD GRIEF.

Kindness?  Maybe in his imagination.  He seems to have a chip on his shoulder the size of a small state.

Edited August 11, 2016 by Droogie

[Bookish Jen]

I'm going to leave this right here, but I'll be back with some further opinions on "Kickgate" later.

[Willowy]

Oh dear, oh dear... 

From Thomas: “There were creative differences on the set and a disagreement. I regret that it occurred. We all want to work together as a team to make the best show possible. We always have and always will.”

[normasm]

21 minutes ago, JMO said:

FYI, Droogie, since you can't see them.  A selection of recent tweets.  A mature person would simply have exacted whatever they presumed to be justice and been done with it.  Someone else would do what you see below.  

 

Virgil Williams ‏@VirgilWilliams  Jul 25Los Angeles, CA

Sometimes people mistake my kindness for weakness. And that is a mistake.

 

Virgil Williams ‏@VirgilWilliams  Jul 29Los Angeles, CA

Be careful how you make your bed. One day you will have to lie in it.

 

Virgil Williams ‏@VirgilWilliams  Aug 2

This dude @larryteng is the homie. A pro's pro. Real talk. #CriminalMinds #Willifer

 

Virgil Williams ‏@VirgilWilliams  Aug 9

Virgil Williams Retweeted Native Am Proverbs ⊕

Amen.  ---in response to a quoted tweet about a Shawnee proverb:  "Respect everyone, but lower yourself to no one."

JMO, you said it. A mature person. He is a loathsome little toad. (And, no, I'm not excusing TG). "my kindness".....

[Lebanna]

I was thinking about the similarity with what happened on 'Top Gear'. There, the lead presenter hit a producer and the presenter got fired. Although it destroyed the show which was widely beloved and most fans who loved the show were very upset about the firing, and many people thought that perhaps the producer had done something to cause the altercation (although apparently he didn't), in my view it was still fair enough to fire the presenter. Because assault is illegal. Doesn't matter if they don't need hospital treatment. Doesn't matter if they are an annoying little shit and you understand completely why they did it. In any other job, you'd be in huge trouble. You might even get arrested.

So, yes, I really, really hope they don't fire Gibson. But if they do, I completely get it.

[autumnmountains]

6 minutes ago, Lebanna said:

I was thinking about the similarity with what happened on 'Top Gear'. There, the lead presenter hit a producer and the presenter got fired. Although it destroyed the show which was widely beloved and most fans who loved the show were very upset about the firing, and many people thought that perhaps the producer had done something to cause the altercation (although apparently he didn't), in my view it was still fair enough to fire the presenter. Because assault is illegal. Doesn't matter if they don't need hospital treatment. Doesn't matter if they are an annoying little shit and you understand completely why they did it. In any other job, you'd be in huge trouble. You might even get arrested.

So, yes, I really, really hope they don't fire Gibson. But if they do, I completely get it.

Exactly. Couldn't say it better myself.

[Willowy]

Not trying to be flip, but needed to share this:

"I wonder if Virgil told Thomas he kicks like a 9-year-old girl." 

[anna0852]

I swear, after I read the story my first thought was "naughty boy." In Emily's voice.

[ReidFan]

and it thickens. EW is saying that he had to undergo anger management training following a similar incident in 2010 when he pushed an assistant director.

yikes.

[Fitz]

4 minutes ago, ReidFan said:

and it thickens.

It surely does...

Thomas Gibson The Writer Kicked is an Aggressive Badass

Edited August 11, 2016 by The Rocket

[ReidFan]

and this story is actually now trending on Facebook too. LOL, er, oopsie.

[smoker]

2 hours ago, Droogie said:

Do you mean as in, he was bummed over these events?  Hmm.  I imagine it did upset him, kind soul that he is.  I'll bet everyone was upset by it.  It'll be hard to sell the whole "gosh, the cast and crew all love each other so much" thing they've always had going.

I don't get why they couldn't have gone to their respective corners to cool off and then settled it like gentlemen with a proper apology.  Because going to agents and network heads screams "dog with a bone" to me -- not that I'm excusing assault; please don't misunderstand.  But Virgil does know this is a steady gig, right?  And that Thomas is essentially a major factor in the success of it?  

I just checked Twitter.  Virg is hardly looking like a hero (for good or for ill). 

Still wondering how it came to kicking...

if TG has a quick temper I can see him trying to kick his mouth :(

as I said before I don't condone violence, but if you are going to make a mess, make it right, like Halle Berry's husband and her ex-husband, seriously, who goes to an ex-boxer home loking for trouble. 

Anyway, I am so sad for the whole situation, I just hope this suspension makes everything right and that guy stops delighting himself in TG punishment, the brass should have told them both to keep their mouths shut

[ForeverAlone]

7 minutes ago, ReidFan said:

and this story is actually now trending on Facebook too. LOL, er, oopsie.

It also showed up on my favorite gossip blog, and they rarely post stuff about Thomas, except when it is really bad and public (like the catfishing video and the DUI). 

[ReidFan]

2 hours ago, JMO said:

FYI, Droogie, since you can't see them.  A selection of recent tweets.  A mature person would simply have exacted whatever they presumed to be justice and been done with it.  Someone else would do what you see below.  

 

Virgil Williams ‏@VirgilWilliams  Jul 25Los Angeles, CA

Sometimes people mistake my kindness for weakness. And that is a mistake.

 

Virgil Williams ‏@VirgilWilliams  Jul 29Los Angeles, CA

Be careful how you make your bed. One day you will have to lie in it.

 

and this one......

[marascross]

****. What a mess.

I haven't been a regular viewer of this show since Season 7, and the occasional episode I did catch was almost always a disappointment, but when I heard Emily Prentiss would be back, I seriously contemplated watching at least her episodes.

Sigh.

Maybe Thomas Gibson's a hothead. Maybe they're both hotheads. God only knows how long they've been butting heads over whatever. It was Gibson who crossed the line, and Virgil Williams can certainly take his quest for vengeance to its bitter conclusion and get him thrown off the show, but talk about your Pyrrhic victories. It's Gibson who has brought excellence to the show. I have tremendous respect for his ability to play both comic and dramatic material. He really stepped up and grounded the show when Patinkin flaked out on them and left them in the lurch. Not many actors could have pulled off a script like "100", and he knocked it out of the park. Williams, on the other hand, is a mediocre writer. Sometimes he puts out a good script, but mostly they're just unmemorable. I can't place him on a par in terms of creative input with a Bernero or Wilder or a number of other writers from the early seasons.

The two parties may yet cool off and handle it like men. Or, the atmosphere may be so poisoned that they are unable to work together again, and even if Gibson isn't fired, Hotch's role may be curtailed for the entire season, not just two episodes. If that happens, it's just not worth coming back for the tepid horse****. I will never watch this show for Williams' writing.

[ForeverAlone]

Here's some idea of how Hotch's absence will be explained.

http://www.tvguide.com/news/criminal-minds-thomas-gibson-hotch-missing-episodes

I know the talk about Paget coming back was before all of this, but I still side eye Emily coming back to help catch any unsubs, UNLESS there is some connection to Interpol. 

[smoker]

1 hour ago, Lebanna said:

I was thinking about the similarity with what happened on 'Top Gear'. There, the lead presenter hit a producer and the presenter got fired. Although it destroyed the show which was widely beloved and most fans who loved the show were very upset about the firing, and many people thought that perhaps the producer had done something to cause the altercation (although apparently he didn't), in my view it was still fair enough to fire the presenter. Because assault is illegal. Doesn't matter if they don't need hospital treatment. Doesn't matter if they are an annoying little shit and you understand completely why they did it. In any other job, you'd be in huge trouble. You might even get arrested.

So, yes, I really, really hope they don't fire Gibson. But if they do, I completely get it.

you're right, I just hope that kicking thing was more an accident than the begining of a physical fight.

GE was suspended more days because the altercation was with a pregnant writer, we don't know if he was menacing or the situation was just unpleasant, but he got his suspension and said he was done with the show, he finished the season because he was under contract, but he didn't come back for the finale. 

And that's it, if TG is not fired, is he going to stay or is he going to negociate his way out? 

After Jorja Fox, GE, even Paget B (other circumstances, I know) I can't anticipate what's coming

[marascross]

Williams is an idiot for posting that picture. It lends credence to the idea that he made a threatening move towards Gibson.

[normasm]

1 minute ago, marascross said:

Williams is an idiot for posting that picture. It lends credence to the idea that he made a threatening move towards Gibson.

Exactly. That can be used against him if this goes to court.

[smoker]

I was reading your post, ABC and CBS need to put a hold on all this shit

keep your mouths shut guys! it's bad enough without the bad press in the mix

and if that "writer" was inviting him to attack him, TG went for it like some newbie. Keep your head down Thomas, and let that VW drown on his own mud!

Edited August 11, 2016 by smoker

[smoker]

5 minutes ago, marascross said:

Williams is an idiot for posting that picture. It lends credence to the idea that he made a threatening move towards Gibson.

I think he sees himself as Ali and the boxer punching is TG

Edited August 11, 2016 by smoker

[Droogie]

10 minutes ago, marascross said:

Williams is an idiot for posting that picture. It lends credence to the idea that he made a threatening move towards Gibson.

What picture?

[smoker]

Just now, Droogie said:

What picture?

it's posted above Droogie

[Droogie]

OH gosh.  As if I already couldn't stand him...

[marascross]

39 minutes ago, smoker said:

I think he sees himself as Ali and the boxer punching is TG

That may be true, but what the picture and caption convey is that when life hands him a challenge, he comes out swinging.

[ForeverAlone]

Here's more from TMZ.

http://www.tmz.com/2016/08/11/thomas-gibson-writer-kicked-criminal-minds-suspended-fight/

Sure, TMZ is a notorious gossip site, but they often get things right. And frankly it completely tracks with what I have thought about Virgil for years. 

[Princess Lucky]

2 hours ago, normasm said:

Exactly. That can be used against him if this goes to court.

I imagine that several people witnessed this, and this is partly why it has become so public. Because it couldn't be denied. And the suspension would suggest TG has had issues before, like that EW article says. As in, maybe they'd give someone else the benefit of the doubt for one "bad moment"/lapse of judgment, but for TG this is more than just the one moment.

Temper issues are always tricky, but there's the escalation to verbal abuse (easier to sweep under the rug, because it happens more often and because ultimately it's just words) and then there's the escalation to a physical attack. Regardless of what preceded it, the person making the first violent move is responsible for that choice. You don't hit your colleagues. This wasn't an altercation at some bar. Whatever happened, TG chose to physically strike a person he works with, at their actual workplace. I would not want to work with someone who resorts to violence after an argument over "creative differences".

Also, in my opinion, the information TG is leaking to TMZ suggests that he's afraid for his job and he's scrambling to make this seem justified. If he does have a history (that we don't know about, but his bosses do), this might be his only resort.

Edited August 11, 2016 by Princess Lucky

[normasm]

Moving aggressively towards someone, especially if you are verbally threatening that person, is assault, even if you don't touch them. If you do go ahead and hit ( or even touch) that person, it's assault and battery. If, and i say if, Virgil was moving toward Thomas aggressively and Thomas kicked out at him, that could simply be self-defense on TG's part. 

[autumnmountains]

I posted this elsewhere. .. .

 

I don't know. I'm also cautious when I hear/ read the words "sources. .." Such as in that TMZ article because it can be very false. I have no doubt Thomas kicked him-it would have already been shot down by TPTB if it was a false rumor. And I know Virgil is well known to be hard to get along with, but only "Gibson sources IIRC (so either friends, family or paid by him, etc ) " was their resources for the claim that Virgil was aggressive first. 

With that said, even if he was aggressive, he's not the one who made contact- Thomas was. 

Also there is the fact that TPTB suspended Thomas and didn't do anything to our knowledge, to Virgil. Probably there's a big reason for that. 

Now, I do think Virgil is being a stupid baby in how he's acting on social media but still. 
 

Edited August 11, 2016 by autumnmountains

[Willowy]

In heated situations, people don't usually put their best 'foot' forward (see what I did there?), but honestly I'm concerned for both of them. If Virgil did lunge at Thomas, he could be fired. Firing Thomas, while maybe deserved, would be disastrous for the show and I'm not sure it could recover from such a sudden loss of Hotch.

[threebluestars]

The more I read about this, the more I think the show just needs to die in a dumpster fire. It's clearly past its prime, and if there's altercations on set, then that means ego and trouble which means it's headed for disaster anyway. The network would be smart to cut their order to a half season and end it.

[Willowy]

2 hours ago, arieswriting said:

The more I read about this, the more I think the show just needs to die in a dumpster fire. It's clearly past its prime, and if there's altercations on set, then that means ego and trouble which means it's headed for disaster anyway. The network would be smart to cut their order to a half season and end it.

D:

[BookWoman56]

Virgil may well be an ass and IMO a crappy writer, but TG is the one who did the kicking. In many workplaces, that incident would result in the employee being fired on the spot. It was a stupid thing to do, no matter the provocation, in a public setting. The fact that TG has a similar workplace incident does not make me in any way inclined to give him a pass. Nor do I blame Virgil for escalating to TPTB; if someone had kicked me or otherwise physically assaulted me at work, I would not hesitate to go to HR and so forth.

I've never particularly liked Hotch, and obviously that biases my attitude somewhat, but if they let TG go from the show, it will not make any difference to me whatsoever. The show is in its 12th season, the writers seem to have run out of good ideas years ago for the most part, and I'd like to see the various actors move on to different roles. It would be different if the show was still as compelling as it was in the first few seasons, but it's not. From my perspective, they need to just use this season to wrap up any so-called character arcs they had planned, and end the misery.

[Danielg342]

I don't think there is any excuse for what Thomas Gibson did. I don't care who the aggressor was or who was being more of a jerk- you don't hit people. Period. The fact that Gibson has done it before makes it even worse. He should be lucky he's only out for two weeks. I would have given him more.

I'll also say this, and it'll be unpopular but I don't care- as a character, Hotch has become useless. Just like Rossi. The only thing Hotch ever gets used for is "wheels up in 30" and to bark a few orders- gone are those explorations where we've really dug deep into the realities of Hotch's job and how it affects him. Honestly, I'm not sure Hotch has had a meaningful storyline since "The Slave of Duty".

So, if he goes, I won't shed a tear. I also don't think the show will suffer that much anyway. CM is already on its last legs anyway, and I don't think it'll ever go back to the lofty heights it set for itself back in its glory days.

Furthermore, if this allows Reid to get into the spotlight and take charge for once I'm all for it. Matthew Gray Gubler deserves his own show, and if this allows him to take over CM, I'll take it.

[autumnmountains]

2 minutes ago, Danielg342 said:

I don't think there is any excuse for what Thomas Gibson did. I don't care who the aggressor was or who was being more of a jerk- you don't hit people. Period. The fact that Gibson has done it before makes it even worse. He should be lucky he's only out for two weeks. I would have given him more.

 

Agreed. 

[normasm]

If Hotch, or any other major character on CM, is "useless", it is because of the writers, producers and show runners. No, if he assaulted someone, there's no excuse. But the show is over without him. There won't be any Reid takes over crap. Much as I would like it.

[Danielg342]

I think the show is already "over"- the ratings haven't been great since S8 really and Hotch has been there the whole time. Quite frankly I'm open  to something new.

[ForeverAlone]

I'm open to something new as well, but I want new writers. Now we do have at least one new writer and hopefully there will be SOME improvement. But I am not hoping too much. 

[Willowy]

D:

[Willowy]

Not condoning any bad behavior. Just sad and hating that this is happening. Watching 100.

[secnarf]

Wow, I semi-disconnect for a day and everything falls apart.

I don't really have an opinion on the actual events, since I don't know what happened exactly, and therefore I don't really have an opinion on the suspension or any potential punishment. Maybe I will care more tomorrow or next week or when the new season starts, but right now it doesn't really feel like I will. This is hardly the worst news I got this evening, so maybe that's why I'm feeling so apathetic about this, but it seems like the show is entering "Bones" territory - imo, they should really just set a series finale date and work towards that properly, rather than have it continue to flame out like this.

[Droogie]

40 minutes ago, secnarf said:

they should really just set a series finale date and work towards that properly, rather than have it continue to flame out like this.

Oh, man.  This.

[smoker]

http://m.tmz.com/#article/2016/08/12/thomas-gibson-criminal-minds-job-uncertain/

[Fitz]

What really happened during Thomas Gibson’s on-set fight

EDIT: Criminal Minds Round Table is closing and Bull Pen is considering it depending on the outcome.

Edited August 12, 2016 by Fitz