S11.E20: Don't Call Me Shurley

[Aeryn13]

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It wasn't just because Sam was infected...theoretically, everyone on the planet would soon be infected.

The way the scene played, though, I`d have to say it was just the Sam thing. I mean, the bit with the duct tape was almost comical. Even if it wouldn`t have helped, it would have taken Dean maybe two seconds to finish that door. Just pin down the strand and then run to Sam. No, they have him run to Sam like a headless chicken, the camera stays on the half-finished tape and then shows the fog getting in and you hear the screams through the door. Very clearly showing that it was because Dean literally couldn`t keep his attention away from Sam for a even a moment to at least try and save some people. 

The only thing they could have done to make it more obvious would have been a scene where Sam stumbles over something, bangs his knee into a table, cries "ouch" and Dean lets out a panicked "Sam" and starts running towards him, not even taking in the situation. And while he is doing that, he misses his surroundings so much that he knocks two toddlers in his way right into a fire in his haste to get to Sam.  

[MysteryGuest]

I disagree, but that's ok...we each have our own interpretation.  Yes, Dean abandoned the duct tape, but it so obviously wasn't working.  And honestly, if I thought my brother was dying, I'd probably do the same thing.  Yes, they've died quite a bit, but they never know when it might be for the last time.  Their co-dependence just doesn't bother me because I absolutely understand it.  Their lives are so far from normal that I can't view their relationship the same as I would other siblings.  It isn't just a matter of missing the other brother if they died, but having to face the horrors they face every day, by themselves.  I would do just about anything not to have to face that sort of life alone.

I've admitted before that I'm a sap when it comes to the brother angst.  It's what drew me in from the very beginning, and it's that relationship that keeps me watching.  If they didn't do the things they do to save one another then we wouldn't have a show.

[rue721]

Also, I guess that Sam had a different college experience than I did. WET TOWEL, guys! You need a wet towel on the threshold. Not tape, ffs. The duct tape is for taping cling wrap around the door frame. I mean, what was even the USE of going to college if you're gonna make rookie mistakes like that, Sam! :P

[catrox14]

re The End and Chuck

I am of the opinion that The End was 100% an actual alternate future and not a Zachariah construct so for me, yes God was hanging out in that camp watching the world burn. But I don't want to bog down this thread, so I'll ke my thinky thoughts on The End, It's a Terrible Life and DSotM and Zachariah's role  to the All Seasons thread if anyone is interested. 

 

3 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I think that the disease was making Sam say those things, just like the lady cop was "hearing" Amara's voice in the fog.  

Aside from the season 8 aberration where Sam turned into a complete asshole and didn't bother to look for Dean, they have both worked to save the other.  Sam was devastated when Dean went to hell, he did some pretty out-of-character things to save Dean from being a demon, and obviously he pulled out all the stops to remove the Mark and save his brother.  All because he didn't want to be without him.  Dean has the ingrained "you're my little brother and I'm totally responsible for you" issues going on, but both brothers have shown that they'll do just about anything to save the other.

 

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Harris: [ Breathing heavily ] I tried to kill myself. But she won't let me. She has a message -- for you, Dean Winchester.

Amara? Is she here? No. But her words have been echoing in my head every since I took a breath of that fog.

Did she tell you to kill your husband?

And I watched myself do it.

Okay, listen to me, this is an infection. Put the gun down. Let us help you. It's not an infection.

Harris: She says it's a mirror. She's showing us all the truth. Darkness. The light was just a lie.

Thinking back to the folks who souls Amara ate...Len, the young woman and the deputy. She ate their souls, their light, and they were left with unfettered access to their own thoughts or impulses both good and bad and conscious or subconscious.

Since Amara is nothingness she can't replace what she takes when she eats souls. And if she is eating souls to fill her nothingness with humanity's "somethingness" she may think that leaving them access to all their thoughts and feelings is bliss when it's just taking out the filter so to speak.

Perhaps  loneliness and fear of abandonment are the most basic fears for humanity and those drive other actions and fears. But why do those fears exist at all?

Since Chuck created humanity out of his own loneliness then theoretically it is in our basic DNA.  Perhaps Amara's nothingness was trying to fill nothingness with God's first attempts at creation who were also lonely like God. When her nothingness was combined with his loneliness "gene" it lead to the destruction of each of his creations. Perhaps when he finally created humanity that he liked he didn't want to risk destroying what he had by having to remove loneliness so he created a soul (light) to filter out most of the negative thoughts and emotions that might spring from loneliness and the fear of abandonment and the sense of nothingness. Once he's done that, he locks Amara away to prevent her nothingness from accidentally destroying his creation. 

WRT the cop that killed her husband we saw prior to that he had been kind of poking at her about not being at home on time, which may have been pinging his most basic fear of abandonment. Maybe he was angry with her and tried to attack her before she shot him (we don't know either way). 

And before that the other guy that killed his co-workers was said to be saying all the negative and basic things that were probably filtered out by the "soul".

If we look at Sam's words in The Chitters he said he was always worried that Dean and John would never come back from a hunt and that he would have to find a way to live on his own. So maybe in Sam's case, the fog disrupted that filter that doesn't let him touch his fears of abandonment and boom he reveals to Dean that he really IS afraid that Dean will pick Amara and that's because Dean told him that he was screwed and he wasn't sure he could kill her. 

I think Amara left the cop conscious of her actions just so she could give Dean the message that he will be the last man on Earth...literally.

In short, IMO Amara wasn't MAKING them do anything or making them feel anything that wasn't already there. She's taking out the filter and putting a mirror their own fears and insecurities.

Edited May 6, 2016 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

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I've admitted before that I'm a sap when it comes to the brother angst.  It's what drew me in from the very beginning, and it's that relationship that keeps me watching.  If they didn't do the things they do to save one another then we wouldn't have a show.

I just felt that in the first few years of the show, they also had a more-than-close and overly-attached relationship but they still weren`t people who would selfishly and callously toss innocent civilians and bystanders into the fire. Dean cared about saving people, not just Sam. He didn`t have to be talked or convinced into helping or protecting anyone other than Sam. So I know there is a middle ground in portraying people who are co-dependent AND heroic. Since I cared about the second part way more than the first, it makes me sad that they have cut it out. 

Edited May 6, 2016 by Aeryn13

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I just felt that in the first few years of the show, they also had a more-than-close and overly-attached relationship but they still weren`t people who would selfishly and callously toss innocent civilians and bystanders into the fire. Dean cared about saving people, not just Sam. He didn`t have to be talked or convinced into helping or protecting anyone other than Sam. So I know there is a middle ground in portraying people who are co-dependent AND heroic. Since I cared about the second part way more than the first, it makes me sad that they have cut it out. 

You know just recently rewatching s1 and s2...Those guys really did not get along well at all. So I still can't quite figure out when this brodependency really became a thing.

Given the reveal in the Chitters of Sam having some apparent abandonment fears when he was a kid, maybe he never really actually got over that fear. Maybe they both have pathological fears of abandonment and with Dean it manifests by not being able to let go of Sam and in Sam it manifests with some latent resentment over Dean's attachment to others like Benny and Cas in s8 and this worry over Amara. Maybe it's all a result of John's neglect as a parent when they were kids and Mary dying when they were children. Like it just kicked in that basic fear I talked about in my previous post, something on a DNA level they have little control over at this point.  Just musings.

I'm not a psychologist but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express a few years ago!

[Aeryn13]

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You know just recently rewatching s1 and s2...Those guys really did not get along well at all. So I still can't quite figure out when this brodependency really became a thing.

Well, even back in Season 1 we had Faith of the "yup, someone died for you, I didn`t know it beforehand but I`m not too broken up about it now" variety. And the way Dean was after Sam`s first actual death in the Season 2 Finale was not that far off from how it is now. So, there were always those epic sweeping bro-moments. In day-to-day life they didn`t really click because they are very people different who enjoy different things.

But Dean would also name Sam to be hunted by the crazy Bender bunch and not the Sheriff. A civilian over his brother. That was the choice a hero and protector of others would make. That person would have finished with the damn duct tape. 

[MysteryGuest]

Dean chose Sam in the Benders because he thought he would have an actual chance to survive.  He trusted Sam's skills in that one because he wasn't really given much of a choice.  They still do their share of saving people, but ultimately, they're never going to sacrifice each other for a cause.  They'll both choose to sacrifice themselves, but not the other.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

10 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

A civilian over his brother. That was the choice a hero and protector of others would make. That person would have finished with the damn duct tape. 

I get part of what you're saying.  But I'm confused as to how choosing your brother - or any other family member - to die over a complete stranger makes one a hero?  It's a no-win situation.  Sophie's Choice.  The Kobayashi Maru.  

[catrox14]

.  

9 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

he Kobayashi Maru.

They cheated

[RulerofallIsurvey]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

.  

They cheated

Kirk cheated.  And far as I know, he was the only one ever to get away with it.

Sam and Dean never cheated - at least they never set out to cheat, imo. (Except maybe that time with Dean in Red Meat, but that's only recently and does not detract from all the other times they did not set out to cheat.)

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Kirk cheated.  And far as I know, he was the only one ever to get away with it.

Sam and Dean never cheated - at least they never set out to cheat, imo. (Except maybe that time with Dean in Red Meat, but that's only recently and does not detract from all the other times they did not set out to cheat.)

Erm......I was just making a joke with the Kobeyashi Maru reference. Not saying anything about the boys.That's it. It's all good.

But now that you've compelled me to think about it. They make deals to avoid death. That is kind of cheating. But that wasn't the point of my first silly comment which was literally just a joke.

Edited May 6, 2016 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

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 But I'm confused as to how choosing your brother - or any other family member - to die over a complete stranger makes one a hero?

It`s the easy choice to run to the person you care about and let a stranger croak, the choice most people would actually make because hey, stranger. A hero would IMO at least try to protect/help/save both. Going for the most help-and defenseless person (in their understanding of the situation) first. They would most certainly not throw someone else, especially someone help-and defenseless, to the wolves or abandon them just to save themselves or their own. I get that this is rare but that is why I prefer to watch shows about heroes over random normal people.  

[MysteryGuest]

I feel that both Sam and Dean were putting everyone else's safety first in the beginning.  It wasn't until they knew that all hope was lost that Dean stayed with Sam. I don't know.  If they didn't do what they do, the show would have ended mid-way through their first season.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

12 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Erm......I was just making a joke with the Kobeyashi Maru reference. Not saying anything about the boys.That's it. It's all good.

But now that you've compelled me to think about it. They make deals to avoid death. That is kind of cheating. But that wasn't the point of my first silly comment which was literally just a joke.

Sorry if my "tone" didn't come across right either.  I realized that first "they cheated" was a joke.  Just trying to clarify, because as you pointed out, it does seem that they've "cheated" death several times.  It's all good.  :)

[AwesomO4000]

5 hours ago, NoWillToResist said:

I can't recall a time when Sam indicated a lack of interest in living when Dean was no longer of the Earth. IMO, that 'both or none' is all Dean.

I gotta defend Sam a little bit here, because in my opinion, the "both or none" thing or even the "take me instead of him" thing is definitely both Dean and Sam. Some examples off the top of my head when Sam very much indicated a lack of interest in living or for his own well-being when Dean was no longer of the earth or was about to be dead/gone/etc.:

• After Dean died on Wednesday in "Mystery Spot" Sam became robo Sam whose only purpose in life when he wasn't hunting recklessly was to find the Trickster so that he could get Dean back. He showed no interest in doing anything else that we saw in those at least six months Dean was "gone." In my opinion, what happened to Sam in that episode, and losing Dean in particular, completely messed with Sam's head.
• In "No Rest For the Wicked" Sam tried to get Lilith to take him instead of Dean and let Dean out of his deal. Lilith wouldn't bite.
• In the "I Know What You Did..." flashbacks Sam first called up a crossroads demon to try to exchange places with Dean in hell. In his words: "I don't want ten years. I don't want one year. I don't want candy! * I want to trade places with Dean." When that didn't work, Sam tried to drink himself to death and/or commit suicide via demon until Ruby came along to talk him out of it.
• In "The Man Who Knew Too Much" Sam would rather risk taking on his hell memories than not be there to help Dean in the showdown against Castiel. That Sam did so and then went into that situation and attempted to stab Castiel in the back pretty much bordered on suicidal.
• In "Time After Time after Time" Sam worked himself into exhaustion until he found out where Dean went and how to get him back.
• Then there was that rather unhealthy behavior previously mentioned from early season 10. That was not a stable Sam there, and he did not intend to stop until he found out what happened to Dean.

Pretty much the aberration was season 8, which is why many - myself included - thought that Sam not looking for Dean made little to no sense, since that wasn't really the way Sam's character had behaved in the past - even the recent past.

* Which was somehow - in my opinion - both amusing and kind of intimidating, because Sam was not fooling around in that scene. Of course stabbing the demon's hand to the picnic table before saying it kind of drove the point home.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

55 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

It`s the easy choice to run to the person you care about and let a stranger croak, the choice most people would actually make because hey, stranger.

I'm not sure for most people letting anyone croak, family or stranger, would be an easy choice - outside of war perhaps.  Or psycho/sociopaths...  I guess it really depends upon the POV also.  All other things being equal, I don't imagine that the family member left to croak in lieu of a stranger would necessarily think of that person as a hero.  

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A hero would IMO at least try to protect/help/save both.

But what if they can't help/protect/save both?  What then?  That's the no-win situation I meant.  Is it still heroic to abandon your family in favor of a stranger?  Depends on how you really feel about your family, I guess...but assuming it's someone you love and you let them die to save someone you don't even know - I don't think that says much about love.

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Going for the most help-and defenseless person (in their understanding of the situation) first. They would most certainly not throw someone else, especially someone help-and defenseless, to the wolves or abandon them just to save themselves or their own. I get that this is rare but that is why I prefer to watch shows about heroes over random normal people.  

Agree to disagree, then.  But I think even heroes save their own first in a truly either/or situation.  

[Aeryn13]

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Some examples off the top of my head when Sam very much indicated a lack of interest in living or for his own well-being when Dean was no longer of the earth or was about to be dead/gone/etc.:

Being messed up and/or seeking vengeance are common writing tropes, those aren`t the problem for me. But he was able to function on some level still. It`s not like Dean was dead and Sam`s immediate next action was the jump off a cliff, screaming. With Dean this Season it`s like they are actually conjoined twins. Sam "dies" and Dean`s organs also shut down right this second because he is not a proper person who can breathe on his own without Sam. In this episode, he didn`t even actually wait for Sam to "die". I mean, Sam was still alive right there and yet Dean abandons helping people right this instant and then voluntarily takes a big breath of the fog.

You know what this current situation reminds me of? The Star Wars prequels where Padme dies of a broken heart in the end because of...reasons. 

[Demented Daisy]

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

 

Quote

 But I'm confused as to how choosing your brother - or any other family member - to die over a complete stranger makes one a hero?

It`s the easy choice to run to the person you care about and let a stranger croak, the choice most people would actually make because hey, stranger. A hero would IMO at least try to protect/help/save both. Going for the most help-and defenseless person (in their understanding of the situation) first. They would most certainly not throw someone else, especially someone help-and defenseless, to the wolves or abandon them just to save themselves or their own. I get that this is rare but that is why I prefer to watch shows about heroes over random normal people.  

 

Another facet to the choice: helping the one in immediate danger over the one in potential danger.  Sam was actively breathing in the fog, while the others were behind a door.  So, Dean raced to Sam's side; I expect he would have done the same if the roles were reversed.  I doubt he would have continued to seal off a door with Sam behind it while leaving a stranger to suffer in the fog.

In this case, the person he loves most in the world is in immediate danger while strangers are in potential danger.  I think anyone would make the same choice.  *shrug*

[Morrigan2575]

I floved this episode. So great to see Chuck again,  even though I wasn't initialy thrilled with the Chuck=God thing.

I have to say Curtis and Rob turned in fantastic performances,  especially in the last scene, totally beautiful.  I don't like Metatron but, I actually got everything about his entire character and actions with his scenes.  It all became so clear to me.

I have to admit, I spent the whole episode worried that the boys would never meet God/Chuck. I was certain the episode would end with Sam/Dean standing outside the bar just in time to see Chuck disappear.  I know those last pages he wrote (based on the song and Metatron's reactions) are his goodbye.  I fully expect this story to end with God/Amara destroying each other or merging together to create some new/different being. However,  I'm happy that we're actually going to get some Sam/Dean/God scenes

Edited May 6, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[MysteryGuest]

I think Dean simply saw the situation for what it was...the end.  He knew that no duct tape was going to keep the fog from getting to everyone, so he chose to spend those last few moments with his brother.  It had nothing to do, in my opinion, with him thinking he wasn't worthy of living without Sam.  And I don't feel that was the case in Red Meat, either.  His "suicide" was just a means to an end to get to Billie.  Yes he wanted to save Sam, but he also wanted to kill the Darkness and save humanity, and in Dean's mind, only Sam can do that.  And not because Dean doesn't think he's worthy, but because of the bizarre link he has with her.  

Edited May 6, 2016 by MysteryGuest

[BlueMeanie]

After this episode I really want to venture into the spoiler thread.  I used to be a spoiler fiend for my favorite shows and I found it took some of the enjoyment out of watching the episodes.  How spoilery is the spoiler thread?

[7kstar]

If you go into the spoiler thread you will see many possible ways it can go, predictions that do come true and some stuff that really spoils you.  You can always chose to skip a post, but If I don't want to know, I don't go there.  Hope that helps.

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, BlueMeanie said:

After this episode I really want to venture into the spoiler thread.  I used to be a spoiler fiend for my favorite shows and I found it took some of the enjoyment out of watching the episodes.  How spoilery is the spoiler thread?

 It's 100% spoilery and speculation. Set Pics, BTS pics, pap pics, tweets from the cast and writers etc. Interviews, panels from the conventions with any show stuff that might be spoilery, con reports.

Edited May 7, 2016 by catrox14

[BlueMeanie]

Yeah I better stay out.  I don't mind a few small spoilers but I don't really want to know big details.

I miss binge-watching on Netflix. ;-) Of course there is joy in anticipation as well.  Hmm.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Just Call Him Chuck, Because He's Humble That Way

Of course Supernatural's version of God digs cat videos.

[rue721]

6 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I'm not sure for most people letting anyone croak, family or stranger, would be an easy choice - outside of war perhaps.  Or psycho/sociopaths...  I guess it really depends upon the POV also.  All other things being equal, I don't imagine that the family member left to croak in lieu of a stranger would necessarily think of that person as a hero.  

But what if they can't help/protect/save both?  What then?  That's the no-win situation I meant.  Is it still heroic to abandon your family in favor of a stranger?  Depends on how you really feel about your family, I guess...but assuming it's someone you love and you let them die to save someone you don't even know - I don't think that says much about love.

Agree to disagree, then.  But I think even heroes save their own first in a truly either/or situation.  

 

3 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I think Dean simply saw the situation for what it was...the end.  He knew that no duct tape was going to keep the fog from getting to everyone, so he chose to spend those last few moments with his brother.  It had nothing to do, in my opinion, with him thinking he wasn't worthy of living without Sam.  And I don't feel that was the case in Red Meat, either.  His "suicide" was just a means to an end to get to Billie.  Yes he wanted to save Sam, but he also wanted to kill the Darkness and save humanity, and in Dean's mind, only Sam can do that.  And not because Dean doesn't think he's worthy, but because of the bizarre link he has with her.  

In Red Meat, Dean argued with Billie to bring Sam back because of all the people that would die if Sam weren't there to save them (ie by helping put away the Darkness).

If you're going completely utilitarian, it WOULD be better to save Sam and/or Dean than to save some random person, because Sam and/or Dean will then go on to save the lives of many others, whereas some random person won't. I think that's where it comes into play that they're "heroes" rather than "civilians." As "heroes," their lives are more valuable than any other given person's, because the lives/safety of many people depend on them (or rather, on their work).

I think that Dean knew that if Sam were succumbing to the Fog, it was only a matter of time before he did, too -- that's why he looked so shocked after he took those big breaths of it, and it didn't seem to be affecting him the way it was Sam.

I think he went over to Sam when he saw the Fog had overtaken him, because Dean wasn't going to sit there futzing with duct tape for what he believed were the last moments before his and his brother's deaths. Also, there was a big broken window with Fog streaming through it at that point, wasn't there? So there really, truly was no point to the duct tape at all anymore.

[AwesomO4000]

53 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I think he went over to Sam when he saw the Fog had overtaken him, because Dean wasn't going to sit there futzing with duct tape for what he believed were the last moments before his and his brother's deaths. Also, there was a big broken window with Fog streaming through it at that point, wasn't there? So there really, truly was no point to the duct tape at all anymore.

I agree, I think at that point Dean probably figured it was a lost cause, and that the fog was going to get in sooner or later, so all he would be doing was prolonging the inevitable for the people on the other side while at the same time depriving him of any last minutes with Sam. Besides, I think I mentioned above that anything at that point that would be able to keep the fog out would likely also keep air out - so the people would either die due to fog or eventually suffocate to death. I couldn't say which would be worse, but suffocating doesn't sound like much fun anyway and would probably take longer, so...

[ZennyKenny]

On 5/6/2016 at 8:46 PM, catrox14 said:

OH and poor Becky! She doesn't even know that she was dating God! Dude that's not cool.

Ugh, I know right? That's like Greek mythology-level stuff.

Honestly, I didn't like that Chuck was always God, either. They very specifically said that he was a prophet of the Lord, didn't they? In my opinion it would have been better if Chuck had been God since the season 5 finale or something. Otherwise it doesn't make sense to me.

Ex: I know Chuck said that he was just acting, but wasn't there at least one scene in season 4 or 5 that showed Chuck getting one of his migraine headaches from being compelled to write? Alone, in his home? If so, who was he doing his "oscar-worthy" performance for?

[AwesomO4000]

31 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

Ex: I know Chuck said that he was just acting, but wasn't there at least one scene in season 4 or 5 that showed Chuck getting one of his migraine headaches from being compelled to write? Alone, in his home? If so, who was he doing his "oscar-worthy" performance for?

My only guess would be: Raphael? Because if the angels knew that God was back, then he'd have to actually talk to and deal with them, and I from what he was saying here, Chuck didn't seem to want to do that. He wanted to stir the pot and observe, so as a "prophet" he could know what was going on without suspicion from even the archangel supposedly protecting him?

That's all I got... and you can use that one, writers, if you want. ; )

[Omegamom]

Remember, Metatron said Chuck was "Method acting".  Some method actors immerse themselves totally in their roles...so God, portraying Chuck the prophet, acted as Chuck even when he was alone.  Just a theory...

I still would have preferred a real Chuck, and God donning his likeness at the end of Swan Song.

[ZennyKenny]

Oh, I see. I wasn't familiar with the term "method acting". That makes more sense.

[SueB]

warning: if you didn't like the episode..."move along, move along, these are not the comments you are looking for"

 

Knowing this was Robbie Thompson's last episode really makes this harder for me to enjoy right now.  And I totally understand and approve of him announcing his departure on the one year anniversary of Charlie's death.  Screw you very much Jeremy Carver and Bob Singer.  No way was that coincidence, given Felicia Day's immediate "thank you" after Robbie's non-announcement announcement.

But I DO think this was a fitting little opus for Robbie to finish on.  It had his trademark style that I personally love. He wrote FOR the fans and did it so very very well IMO.  As a parting episode he established:

- The personality of God in the Supernatural universe. As Metatron stated - "You are light and beauty. Creation. Wrath. Damnation and salvation." I get it may not be everyone's cup of tea but for this fictional universe, that's a pretty damn elegant way of describing a God who is "all".  Someone above complained it's anti-Christian.  Personally, I don't think so. I think it is part of the Supernatural Universe and perfectly fits everything that the characters in that universe have experienced.  And even if he's kind of a dick, that doesn't make him "evil" or "bad".  Dean is kind of a dick sometimes and he's a Big Damn Hero in this universe. And in using the framework of this episode to answer so many, many questions about Supernatural's God, Robbie was able to provide a nearly fully-realized personality in a short time.  It's been clear all season that it's going to be Light vs Dark.  You can't introduce the big guy and then slowly develop his character.  He HAS to (IMO of course) arrive well developed in one episode or else the 'revelations' (sorry, couldn't resist) would be more of a distraction in the remaining S11 episodes that he appears. It's pretty clear, he's at least in the next episode with the way the episode ended.  Which says a lot, BTW, for Andrew Dabb. As the de-facto show runner, he's deliberately placed a game-changing episode with a specific construct; exposition heavy A-story with a world-class almost Apocalypse as the B-story.  I don't know where we are heading, but this episode DID establish (IMO)how Amara's going to "end" humanity. She's going to have God's creations kill each other.  Ouch. Kinda brilliantly brutal.
- That even an evil douchbag like Metatron can still have redemptive moments.  I'm not expecting everyone to say "it's all good now". No more than I think many would say killing Emperor Palpatine completely redeemed Anakin Skywalker.  But in that moment, and in this episode, that which was good inside Metatron was able to make a difference. And that's probably the most redemption most evil dirtbags are going to get.  At a minimum, it makes them more interesting villains IMO.  Who wants a cardboard Nazis Thule as someone who spends more than one episode on screen? And the meta was strong with Metatron this episode.  Robbie was able to recall Metratron's appreciation for the narrative as an observer/editor while acknowledging he was a crappy faux-creator. Old saws like "the hero is only as good as the villain" applied to Metatron here as well as both Lucifer and Amara.  Nicely layered IMO.  Note to English Major's: perhaps, as Chuck/God indicated, it's constructive writing but I'm not sophisticated enough to notice or care.  I thought it was freakin' brilliant and it worked for me. Ultimately, Metatron was able to tap into some raw and truthful (to me) arguments that swayed Chuck/God to stop wallowing.  Perfect character, who began literally and figuratively in the garbage dumpster, to rise up and get the big guy's attention.  WELL PLAYED. 
- That Sam and Dean are Big Damn Heroes who will go out fighting.  If it hadn't been for God's reset amulet, we saw those two fighting until what the characters believed was literally the bitter world's end.  I loved the visual of a nearly incapacitated Sam attempting, and failing, to put a bulletin board over the broken window.  And I think having Dean desperately fight to save people up until his personal Prime Directive kicked in was exactly right. Whether it was because a seasoned vet like Dean knew it was "over" or his own instinct was to die comforting Sam, I think Dean acted perfectly in character. He couldn't save those people, but he could be there for Sammy while he breathed his last.  And yes, I think Dean drew a deep breath of what he believed was poison to 'finish it'. Not like suicide.  But more like choosing how he made his stand.  Which was always going to be right next to his brother. Come what may. I don't think it's some weak co-dependence, I think it's ... solidarity.  I'm sure others don't see it that way, but it was a Butch & Sundance moment for me.  Not Romeo and Juliet.   
- That hope and surprise still exist in Supernatural. When hope was failing in Hope Springs, we had a literal deus ex machina which had Sam and Dean gobsmacked in a way I could totally believe.  Neither said a word during that beautiful montage.  And Robbie knew that he had the actors who could pull off everything that needed to be 'said' without dialog.  Dean's shock and dawning understanding. Sam's wonder and awe.  It was a silent Winsynch moment, as they moved through the street towards what was clearly God.  Robbie plumbed the rich history of eleven seasons with a continuity-porn macguffin; the Samulet.  I left the episode in tears and yet uplifted.  Like, 'why the hell am I crying?' Except that I was deeply moved by what the characters were experiencing. And it doesn't get much better than that for me.

So, WELL DONE Robbie Thompson.  Thank you for giving a little Charlie shout-out with a canon bisexual God  - again, screw you very much Carver & Singer (you tone-deaf fools).   Thanks for the little "Breakfast Club" fist-bump to the shoulder. Thanks for the recognition of the wonders of music. Thanks for weaving in so much show history while moving the series mythology forward in a major way. Thanks for the dog, and the bar. Thanks for showing value in even the most despicable human/ex-angle. Thanks for a complex and delightful (for me) old-yet-new character, Supernatural's Chuck/God. Thanks for an episode that's going to be permanently etched into my brain.

[Morrigan2575]

^^^^Thanks! I was trying to figure out where that self chestbump thing came from...it was Breakfast Club....dr9ve me nuts last night.

Also, forgot to mention i loved the snarky little comment about Kripke. Since Chuck is God and Kripke kind of wrote himself in the story (via Chuck) in the season 5 finale.  I koved that they had Chuck mention Revolution and it not going anywhere. LOL

[MysteryGuest]

I know I was like a broken record about my not wanting Chuck to be God, and I would still have preferred that they hadn't gone there.  But that being said, since they did go there, I think they did a good job.  I did roll my eyes a bit while they explained exactly how non-God Chuck was actually God Chuck pretending to be non-God Chuck, even while by himself (sorry, that's still BS).  But I'm glad they did it quickly rather than drag that explanation out for the entire episode.  That allowed me to still get into the episode and just accept where they were going with it.

It helps to have a great actors when your plot has big holes, and Rob and Curtis really made it work for me.  I know others aren't sold on Metatron's transformation, but I believed it.  He could end up reverting back to his normal dick self next episode, but I could accept his explanation for why he was the angel he was.  

I loved that the amulet is back.  I'm sentimental, and it totally worked for me.  

I had myself so worked up about how bringing God in as a character on the show was going to ruin everything, that I was almost dreading the remaining episodes, and that sucked.  Now I've come full circle, and I'm back in.  I want to see where they go with this.

[DittyDotDot]

7 hours ago, ZennyKenny said:

Ex: I know Chuck said that he was just acting, but wasn't there at least one scene in season 4 or 5 that showed Chuck getting one of his migraine headaches from being compelled to write? Alone, in his home? If so, who was he doing his "oscar-worthy" performance for?

Yeah, there's some definite holes here--Cass also said all the names of prophets are known to angels which would also suggest there was a person named Chuck who was intended to be a prophet--but, God being God could make all that happen retroactively anyway.  I guess I'm just saying "wizards" to it all.  I still prefer the idea that Chuck was only God at the end of S5. Everything lines up for me then and something about it seems more fitting to me. Unlike the amulet, though, they actually stated it in-show and seems like it's kinda story-relevant now, so I guess I gotta go with their explanation now. So, "wizards!" it is. ;)

[Aeryn13]

I read on twitter that Jensen was asked about the amulet at Asylum Con and he said that he asked Bob Singer if he had to wear it again - wasn`t thrilled with the idea since they got rid of it because it was heavy and kept smacking Jensen during stunts, chipping his teeth once - and Bob told him, it was up to him. So, it looks like Dean won`t wear it again. Hooray. And it would have been assy to force Jensen to wear it again, it was a minor request not to do it anymore and it doesn`t cost much to respect it.

Edited May 7, 2016 by Aeryn13

[Binns]

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I read on twitter that Jensen was asked about the amulet at Asylum Con and he said that he asked Bob Singer if he had to wear it again - wasn`t thrilled with the idea since they got rid of it because it was heavy and kept smacking Jensen during stunts, chipping his teeth once - and Bob told him, it was up to him. So, it looks like Dean won`t wear it again. Hooray. And it would have been assy to force Jensen to wear it again, it was a minor request not to do it anymore and it doesn`t cost much to respect it.

Another thing about the amulet...Jared said Sam has had it this whole time and that now Dean would hold onto it (but not wear it like you said). I like that better than God placing it in his pocket though it does raise some questions about where it's been when Sam went to hell, etc. 

[MysteryGuest]

Well, Sam does have his little treasure box, so I'll just assume it was in there.  That's where the replica is, anyway.  I just like the idea of Sam keeping it, knowing what it meant to Dean at one time.  And if I can swallow that Chuck has always been God, then I can believe that Sam's had the amulet the entire time!!

[Aeryn13]

I think the idea that Sam had it this whole time and it didn`t come up before is some retcon fan pandering they did here. It fits with their MO this Season but all it does it make me roll my eyes. Well, if it is just in Dean`s pocket and no further fuss is made about it, like with the fake one from the musical, I can ignore this just as easily. Hopefully, there will no convo about it with an apologetic Dean. Urgh.

[Binns]

11 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Well, Sam does have his little treasure box, so I'll just assume it was in there.  That's where the replica is, anyway.  I just like the idea of Sam keeping it, knowing what it meant to Dean at one time.  And if I can swallow that Chuck has always been God, then I can believe that Sam's had the amulet the entire time!!

That's what I think too! 

[AuntTora]

The amulet is a pretty powerful magical artifact...belongs in the bunker.

[shang yiet]

No, Sam has his dignity. He is not going to root in the trash after watching Dean throw it away right before his eyes just because Dean's feelings got hurt in Dark Side of the Moon.  And Dean can wait a long time before getting another present from Sam. Still think it was dickish of Dean to throw it away.

Edited May 7, 2016 by shang yiet

[7kstar]

Method Acting can be very dangerous...You go so deep you forget who you are.  Actors that have been method have hurt themselves to get the emotions they were supposed to feel during a scene or another example, they are suppose to have not slept for days, they don't sleep for days.  So that line can cover Chuck's reactions and if he was truly hiding, you can even tie it in with season 5, when Death said he would reap God. 

As far as this show being Anti - Christian...it depends on which testament your into.  The old testament has God as mean and cruel and the new one makes him a little kinder and gentler.  Plus add the issue that not all Christian's faiths agree, you've got lots of wiggle room.  I never really care, since Supernatural isn't really following any faith and pokes at all of them.

20 minutes ago, shang yiet said:

No, Sam has his dignity. He is not going to root in the trash after watching Dean throw it away right before his eyes just because...

Since I always thought that Sam would pick the amulet up and hold on it, I can buy that he's been hiding it from Dean to avoid causing him pain.  He knows full well how Dean feels about God.  But Sam is the keeper of Hope, in that his character has always tried to find the belief that it will work out unless they decide not to write it for him.  I don't see this as Sam losing his Dignity or it being about poor little Dean.  They have different ways of seeing the world and that creates natural conflict.  Personally for me it makes Sam more interesting and allows him to have depth to his character instead of being a cartoon.    Sometimes it's been the writing choices that have made it worse, but I don't pity either brother.

Dean is more practical going with what he sees and losing his mother so young, makes sense that he would have a different kind of faith.  I also want to see how he handles seeing God now, but with God saving the town and Sam, he may not punch Chuck...Although it might have been fun to see.  :)

I guess another thing for me, is that my job is to look at what doesn't work with the acting, writing and etc.  So although I may point of stuff I don't like, it doesn't mean I hate it.  I would have stopped watching if I did.  Example I no longer watch Greys and left it a long time ago.  I've seen a few eps here and there because a friend likes it, but it's no longer on my watch list.  I'm watching Supernatural live sometimes when I can, so I have come full circle.

I agree that Robbie had some really brilliant moments in this ep.  The bits with God and Metatron, The ending.  And for those that didn't want Sam to have it all along, easy, it was with God and Metatron during their conversations.  It could be easy to think that God put it in Sam's pocket as he was dying and Dean finds it.  The actors make choices based on what they know now, but if the writer's haven't revealed it, their interpretation could be wrong. Jared has stated he would have played several scenes differently if he had only known...  Just my two cents.  :)

Edited May 7, 2016 by 7kstar

[Aeryn13]

Dean was the one who gave it value in the first place by carrying it for years. And even though it was a "well, John is not here so you have it" grudge gift, it was gifted to him. So IMO he had a right to do with it whatever he wanted. He wasn`t obligated to value it or carry it or keept it. So I have no interest of seeing it forced back on him. That bugged me in the musical already. 

Hopefully, this ep marks a one-and-done deal with the thing. Fans can envision whatever about it but it`s not brought up again.

Oh, and apparently that beer thing in the ironing scene was something the Js came up with. So the script just called for Dean ironing Sam`s shirt? What did Thompson think of here, Downton Abbey? Dean is not the fucking servant of his brother.

Edited May 7, 2016 by Aeryn13

[shang yiet]

7star, I like what you said about Sam being the Keeper of Hope. You see the amulet as a sign of belief in hope and God but I was actually seeing it as a sign of brotherhood and I didn't like Dean throwing it away because it's as if he's throwing Sam and brotherhood away, you know?

Aeryn - The amulet had value the minute Sam decided to give it to Dean. The value lay in Sam's feelings for Dean, not whether Dean wore it for x number of years. I think the value of a gift lies in both the giver's intentions and what the recipient does with it.

If someone gives me a gift, I don't have to throw it away in the trash in front of them just because it's mine and I can do what I want with it. That's rude.

My mum ironed my dad's shirts all the time. Was she a fucking servant? No. It wouldn't bother me anyway to see Sam sweeping the bunker or cooking or doing the laundry. Housework is not demeaning.

Edited May 7, 2016 by shang yiet

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Aeryn - The amulet had value the minute Sam decided to give it to Dean. The value lay in Sam's feelings for Dean, not whether Dean wore it for x number of years. 

I completely disagree. Before they made up this backstory, Sam couldn`t have cared less about it. He never showed any value to it whatsoever. And why should he? It was a grudge gift. If John had been there, he would have gotten it. Heck, maybe John showed up the next day with presents and Sam wished he could take it back and give it to him. Kids do that all the time. Dean attributed far more value to it for all these years IMO than Sam meant in that moment.

And in either case, it`s not an obligation for Dean to wear it. It`s not a leash. Okay, maybe he didn`t need to throw it in the trash but he could have put it down on the table and just walked out.   

Quote

It wouldn't bother me anyway to see Sam sweeping the bunker or cooking or doing the laundry. Housework is not demeaning.

Well, if they BOTH were shown to do it, I wouldn`t have a problem with it. 

[MysteryGuest]

Hmmm...I absolutely think the amulet had meaning to both Sam and Dean.  Yes, it was originally purchased for John, but Sam gave it to Dean because he was the one there for him.  And I think Dean's feelings about it gave it meaning for Sam.  Dean wore the damn thing for years, and it wasn't until he was at his lowest point that he threw it away.  He'd given up on God in that moment.  I have no doubt that Sam understood that, and that it in no way reflected how Dean felt about Sam or his gift.  But I also like the idea that Sam picked it up and kept it for Dean, just in case things changed.  It was a nice gesture, at least in my head canon.  

[shang yiet]

My sis-in-law gives me necklaces every year. I didn't know they were supposed to be leashes I'm obliged to wear. In any case, I don't care whether Dean wears it again and even if he does, so what? I didn't realise wearing an amulet could be degrading. I think it was a sweet gift from a sweet little boy.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

11 hours ago, SueB said:

warning: if you didn't like the episode..."move along, move along, these are not the comments you are looking for"

Lol.  Well, I didn't really like the episode, but I actually did like your comments.  In fact, I think they may have helped me appreciate the episode a little more, so there's that.  :)

Quote

- The personality of God in the Supernatural universe. As Metatron stated - "You are light and beauty. Creation. Wrath. Damnation and salvation." I get it may not be everyone's cup of tea but for this fictional universe, that's a pretty damn elegant way of describing a God who is "all".  Someone above complained it's anti-Christian.  Personally, I don't think so. I think it is part of the Supernatural Universe and perfectly fits everything that the characters in that universe have experienced.  And even if he's kind of a dick, that doesn't make him "evil" or "bad".  Dean is kind of a dick sometimes and he's a Big Damn Hero in this universe. 

• I don't think it was anti-Christian.  But then, I've never been one that ascribed to the whole "Old Testament God" vs. "New Testament God" thing either.  Same God, imo.
• Dean can be a dick (so can Sam) and not be "bad" or "evil" because they aren't God.  They are just mere mortals.  And that's the way we roll.
• That's not actually the problem I had with guck.  It's not that he's "bad" or "evil", I don't think he was/is.  It's that he completely checked out for a few millennium and didn't care at all.  

Quote

- That even an evil douchbag like Metatron can still have redemptive moments. 

I don't actually have a problem with this either.  It's very God-like.

Quote

And yes, I think Dean drew a deep breath of what he believed was poison to 'finish it'. Not like suicide.  But more like choosing how he made his stand.  Which was always going to be right next to his brother. Come what may. I don't think it's some weak co-dependence, I think it's ... solidarity.  I'm sure others don't see it that way, but it was a Butch & Sundance moment for me. 

I'll have to rewatch to be sure (and fast forward past all the guck/Metatron scenes) but I still don't think Dean purposely gulped the fog.  But I do like what you said about solidarity and Butch and Sundance.  :)

Quote

- That hope and surprise still exist in Supernatural.

Yeah, I did feel that sense of hope at the end.  That was nice - something that has been missing from the show for awhile, imo.  So I'll keep watching to see where they go with that at least.  

Even if I still don't like guck.  ;)