Strong - General Discussion

[Meredith Quill]

A place to discuss particular episodes, arcs and moments from the show's run. Please remember this isn't a complete catch-all topic -- check out the forum for character topics and other places for show-related talk.

[pivot]

Man, this show makes me want to sign up for a cross fit class and actually put down the candy.

[rainsmom]

Me too!

[simplyme]

Wow. Poor Brittany. She would have done better competing with another contestant rather than her trainer.

[Kendall]

Maybe not Crossfit for me, but that's another discussion regarding that particular discipline, but I definitely need my ankle to heal up, so I can get back out on the move! I'm so glad a forum was made for this show, I was so sad last week when I didn't see one.

 

Ky was just pathetic. That was depressing to see the Trainer going out like that. I think he did a good job in getting Brittany where she needed to be, but he had been slacking off in his own training and it was glaring throughout. Going into the Tower, I was surprised that the Purple team didn't take the opportunity to add wear and tear to Adam since he couldn't even compete, but maybe behind the scenes they told them that he wouldn't be cleared. However, after seeing how Ky performed, they really should've saved him until later.

 

Overall, if this show gets another season, to be fair to the trainers, they need to have the women of near equal weight and athletic ability. I think the first Trainer that went out, Leyon, I believe he had a heavier Trainee and Wes almost killed himself trying to squat up Jasmine last week. Jasmine had difficulty pulling herself up!

 

This show is great, it should actually be two hours to see a little more of the training for the women and what they are eating and stuff.

[simplyme]

Jasmine definitely has a legitimate point about her weight working against her in a lot of the challenges. That said, I'm sad she feels so bad, because even with the extra weight she's really pretty.

[pivot]

Yeah, they need to make the challenges a lit more fair when there is that much difference in wait. The blue team's trainer has it the easiest. His trainee is tiny compared to the rest.

And I would love to see less drama between the trainers and more focus on what each candidate is doing to get in shape.

[Kendall]

Nah, you gotta keep the Trainers fighting because it's rare on reality TV that you get to see the dudes going on and on. But, also because some of those Trainers are fighting for their Trainees and that's just cool to me. Yeah, there is a lot of ego as Ky's hissy fit showed, but Bennie (the blue team) set it off not just because he was lied to, but because his Trainee was on the line.

[ExplainItAgain]

Wow, I just started working with a personal trainer and this show hits home. I have no strength at all and I feel for these ladies. Especially Jasmine - I can relate to her. She seems like a great person. I really like Mat (purple trainer) as well.

 

What's with the orange team? They are hardly ever featured!

 

The transformations at the end blow my mind! Brittany looked amazing.

 

Adam is such a dick. He had a point about talking wasting energy but he went about it in the wrong way. I feel bad for CC.

[90PercentGravity]

I actually contacted a crossfit gym to find out the cost of classes. It wasn't as much as I expected, but I'm still not sure I can afford it, but it seems like it might be worth it. 

[rainsmom]

Good for you!!

[pivot]

Purple saving Gray tonight made me tear up even if they did it strategically. Thought it was BS that eliminated teams can fight their way back in. And they should have some more contests that aren't focused just on arms.

[simplyme]

I was happy for Jasmine that she was saved from the tower, but I kind of saw that coming since purple really wanted a blue versus white match up.  Good thing Mat was smart enough to think of how to throw it or Nicole would have knocked Jasmine out in the third round to save her more pain.

Part of me wonders if Adam and Dan were told to be the unlikeable trainers so we'd have villains to root against.  I kind of cared a little bit more about CC (white team) than Jill (blue team), but Adam vs Bennie completely negated that.  Go, blue team.  Now hopefully Adam won't manage to worm his way back on.

Oh, hey.  Orange team exists.

Was that Subway product placement super awkward or what?  I started laughing out loud and SimplyMom asked, "Is this a joke?"

[Kendall]

That Subway ad was amazing in the most horrible way! That was hilarious. When I said that I wanted to see what they were eating, I didn't know what I was asking for. However, I have to say that they all said their lines really well. It was that hate to love moment that I just wasn't expecting. Not even the Fitbit spots were as obvious as that one. Wow.

I'm am glad that White team lost. Adam is a given, but CC really isn't that much better, you know there is just something about her. It was a bit punkish for Purple to go out like that, but really stupid for Wes and Jasmine to not take the chance on getting that $150,000 and Bennie on their side. The chances that they won't need another gift win is very slim, so go with a team that have a capability to win.

Once again, Bennie showing his smarts by telling Jill to drop on the hang.

I can't believe that I was really sitting on my couch with my heart racing, even though I knew that Adam wouldn't be out of my life just due to the commercials advertising that "the game has changed!!!" I would've preferred an opportunity to switch coaches or grabbing an eliminated coach or something before them playing back in. Although, it may help the women as they will have a chance to rest while the eliminated teams fight, so now it actually sounds okay.

What I really love as this show goes along is seeing not only the competitions, but to see the Trainers' philosophies coming into play to help further success, but not because it was strategy towards the game, but towards getting the Trainees in better shape. Matt adding rows to Nicole's regimen was perfect for tonight and I'm just going to disregard any thought that this is reality TV and hints have been dropped. The show is good enough to take it at face value.

I'll be so sad if this is the only season. I love this show.

[ClareWalks]

This show is fascinating to me, as a trainer. I would have picked Bennie, if I were on this show. He is a bit rage-y but I respect his background (strength and conditioning) the most. I loathe loathe loathe Crossfit, not only for its cultish, elitist culture but for its terrible form. 

Notice how, during the row, Nicole didn't complain about her arms being sore. That's because rowing is 50% legs, about 30% back, and only about 20% arms and core, IF you're doing it properly. The bulk of the lift should be coming from the large lower-body muscles, and then as you press back you should squeeze the shoulder blades together to ensure you are using your big back muscles and not your relatively puny biceps. I'm quite surprised that so few of the women understood the mechanics of (cable) rows, since their trainers should have introduced them to that since literally day one.

Glad the white team left, they both seem quite douchey.

[rainsmom]

Yay! White is gone. Happy dance, happy dance, happy dance! I didn't like Adam or CC. I swear if they earn their way back in....

A Subway commercial. Thanks, guys. (You just KNOW that as soon as that commercial was done, the trainers made their trainees swear never to eat that crap again.)

I love the challenges, but I fast forward through the political machinations. I don't care about that crap. I really, really don't. I don't know who convinced the reality TV producer monkeys that personal drama was necessary, but I wish they'd cut it out.

Still love the transformations.

[raven]

5 hours ago, rainsmom said:

 

I love the challenges, but I fast forward through the political machinations. I don't care about that crap. I really, really don't.

Yeah, the conspiring is a turn-off for me.  None of the personalities are really standing out for me either, except for Bennie's first episode rant about the white team trainer being dead to him.  Take it down a notch or a hundred. 

I'm kind of disappointed - I like competitions but would have liked more emphasis on specifics for the women and the trainer methods.  I'd love to try the Tower.

[Kromm]

Fuck. A Subway product placement/sneaky in-show commercial, where they spit out lines that are supposed to sound spontaneous but which were clearly being read off cue cards over their shoulders?

What is this, The Biggest Loser?

I know it's on the same network, but my hope was that if that slimeball J.D. Roth wasn't involved, we'd be spared this shit.  Guess that was a vain hope.

[ExplainItAgain]

I really like Nicole - she really seems to be taking it seriously and is working hard. She was a beast on the rower! Plus, they were doing really well on the hanging bar and only lost because of a miscommunication. I think they could have gone longer. I thought it was sweet that they saved Jasmine - I like that they were being supportive while also making a strategic gameplay. Gray was right that they used them, but it all worked out. CC and Adam were both annoying in their own way, but that was a close tower.

How are all these girls a size 2 at their transformation?!

Orange team wins a challenge and we still barely know anything about them! They weren't even in the conversation about who to send to the tower!

[Mittengirl]

Quote

How are all these girls a size 2 ...?

Very stretchy clothes.  They don't say how many items of clothing they own are a size 2.  Probably one stretchy pair of Lycra shorts that are cut large to begin with.  I could squeeze in to a size medium t-shirt, but it would look like hell on me and would probably explode at the seams if I exhaled.  

I hate this time-worn "bring back old contestants" storyline.  Time for TPtB to come up with something new, if they insist on having a twist.

Did the trainers know each other before this show?  Because some of the reactions to being sent to the tower seem rather personal.  I mean, they all know that someone is going to go, so why act so pissy?

[simplyme]

The good: Adam is now gone forever (I will hate them forever if this is not true), Brittany is back minus Ky the albatross, Jasmine and Wes legitimately won a challenge on their own, the tower is a nailbiter, and the orange team is pretty classy all around

The bad: Todd is back, and he speaks mostly in cliches and very long-winded "mottos." *eyeroll*  The obvious focus on the hitherto practically invisible orange team foreshadows the ending.  Sarah wears garish fuchsia lipstick with her red outfit.  Gabrielle Reece still has no personality.

Other comments: Brittany is a tough cookie.  I'm so glad she's back.  How the heck she fell, got back up, and then they racked up a difference of something like 6 points over the purple team in the final 40 seconds of that challenge is beyond me.

If we're down to one challenge only, I'm a bit worried what crap is going to be filling the rest of the episode time.

[lilabennet]

I was rooting for Todd in the tower because he is the oldest trainer.  I didn't realize until later that he is also Mr. Catchphrases.  Whoops.

[90PercentGravity]

I was confused, I thought the red team trainer said he ran the tower the day before. Wasn't the white team the last to run?

[ExplainItAgain]

2 hours ago, 90PercentGravity said:

I was confused, I thought the red team trainer said he ran the tower the day before. Wasn't the white team the last to run?

I noticed this too. Weird.

The orange team finally gets noticed and sent home in the same episode! I love the gray and purple teams.

[ClareWalks]

Todd has slogans, for sure. It really boggles my mind how many top trainers are slogan machines. I mean, I get it, some phrases settle in with clients and really work, but you can speak like a normal person. One time I was doing a workout with a few other female trainers (pullups) and I discovered a phrase that worked great on all of them. The phrase? "Pull, bitch!" :-P

That said, I'm glad Todd came back, because he is actually my mentor's mentor. I have never met him, but if he can mentor MY mentor, he must be pretty good.

[pivot]

I am re-watching these episodes and I didn't realize how strong Jasmine and Wes are. They have finished in the top 3 in the early episodes. 

I am hoping they pull off the underdog win. If not them, then purple team all the way. Blue team has such an unfair advantage. Jill is the tiniest one there and she doesn't have the head issues the other contestants have. 

I'd almost like for there to be a team shake-up 1/2 way through and have Bennie have to weaker contestant.

[rainsmom]

I wish they'd done a trainer swap at the half way point, too. Maybe even bring back the ousted trainers and let the trainees choose from everyone. It would be good to have the trainees experience more than one focus and style of training.

[simplyme]

I think Jill has a lot of issues, actually.  I think she doubts herself more than most of the others.  Everyone sees Bennie as a threat, but I don't think anyone really thinks Jill is, even with all his work.  If she were as tenacious as CC or Brittany or Jasmine or Gianna or purple team woman whose name I'm blanking on (Nicole!), blue team would be truly feared.

[Kendall]

I'm happy that Brittany didn't have to actually ditch Ky and the show did that for her. She earned that much. I was really shocked at how many of the guys couldn't get across the coil, but then I realized that the outside of the coil is rather thick/large in its circumference and if you don't have the hand size to really get around it, then it will of course affect your grip.

It's hard to believe that the little hitch Giovanna had really came down to a two second difference that ousted them.

Adam and his not being cleared TWICE was incredibly convenient to me. I think he may have been a little more talk than walk and assisted the doctor in believing that he wouldn't be able to compete. I just don't think he would've been walking as easy as he was, if he also could barely stand on his tiptoes. But, I've been sitting around for what seems like forever with an ankle injury and maybe I'm just being harsh.

I'll always be Team Bennie, I think he was the one that put it out on the table about what the Trainers had on the line and for me, stopped any of the potential We Are the World moments that sometimes happen on reality TV, so the contestants won't look like bad guys. You don't have to be a bad guy to be real or just competitive, just leave it on the field, ADAM!

[ExplainItAgain]

What's the situation with the tower? Do they run it separately and then splice it for TV? I thought there were two towers back to back or side by side but they had a wide shot tonight where it seemed like there was only one (which probably makes sense for budget reasons).

Fake drama over who was going in when everyone knew it would be the lime team. Mahogany looks great.

Edited May 13, 2016 by ExplainItAgain

[Kendall]

While I am happy that Mahogany looks and feels better, but didn't she say early in the season that her husband cheated on her? May he be banished to a lifetime of tower runs.

Dan was so nakedly scared, scheming and just downright punkish when Mahogany volunteered them for the tower. He was begging her to say her groin hurt badly, but she just wouldn't bite. I think in a way, she just wanted to go home. Mahogany had to know that she couldn't do the Tower healthy, so with a bum groin? Girl, please.

What the heck was that challenge all about? That was crazy and it's a wonder that none of the Trainers didn't end up with a stress fracture or something. Of all of the ones they've done, that one seemed so unsafe where the others just seemed hard.

Once again, Bennie came through with the fire and truth! He stepped up for all the Trainees, not just Jill in the early powwow by describing the Trainees as more than capable and not needing to be protected and then he went off in keeping Jill out of the Tower when Dan tried to bait Wes and Jasmine.

The only way he doesn't get on a hopefully season two is if he just doesn't want to participate. He has the perfect balance of crazy and competitiveness.

I will give Dan this much, when he tried to carry Mahogany across the coil, that was top notch.

As for the tower, yeah, I guess it really is only one tower and they don't actually go against each other. I suppose when you see them give up in the middle, somebody shouts out that they can't beat the time, so they might as well stop.

[simplyme]

1 hour ago, ExplainItAgain said:

What's the situation with the tower? Do they run it separately and then splice it for TV? I thought there were two towers back to back or side by side but they had a wide shot tonight where it seemed like there was only one (which probably makes sense for budget reasons).

I haven't been able to figure that out either.

1 hour ago, ExplainItAgain said:

Mahogany looks great.

Which really was her main reason for doing this as far as I can tell from her edit.  Go ahead and leave the kids and cheating hubby and your job for a few months when you're desperate about finances.  As long as the hubby likes how you look when you get back, right?  (Yeah, that was judgmental of me, but all she talked about at the end was her husband's reaction.) 

That ultimate challenge was poorly planned.  The teams who went first were at a big disadvantage, trying to figure out how best to hit the bag and not knowing what time to shoot for.

Edited May 13, 2016 by simplyme
Tried to add in Kendall's quote

[simplyme]

5 minutes ago, Kendall said:

Dan was so nakedly scared, scheming and just downright punkish when Mahogany volunteered them for the tower. He was begging her to say her groin hurt badly, but she just wouldn't bite. 

Yeah.  I was happy that Mahogany brought the fire there and thought Dan sounded like he was doubting her.  He had definite weasel vibes too.  Bennie was, as usual, awesome.

[Kendall]

Yeah, they should've had that challenge done in private like they do on Big Brother. You won't know you've won until the end.

[raven]

Shut up Bennie.  I don't think Dan sounded scared or any of that.  Just...shut up Bennie.  You have no idea what Dan's thinking, don't say you do - if he's worried about Mahogany or what.  LOL, Mahogany's the one who quit (hurt leg?  she knew she'd be going home) if it was anyone.  How is his being concerned about her physical health mean he's trying to get out of the tower?  As a trainer, it's his job to be concerned about her.

What a bunch of unlikable people.  The challenges are interesting but the women are either blah (notice how Jill just sits there while Bennie rages on, don't get in the way of the rage monster) or unlikable.

I'll probably watch to the end but too much interpersonal drama.  I don't like the way the team picking who goes to the tower is so spotlighted and feel the need to speechify about who they're picking.  Just not my type of thing in competitive shows.  And I'd like to ban the phrase "gonna BRING it" if at all possible :)

Edited May 13, 2016 by raven

[ClareWalks]

3 minutes ago, raven said:

What a bunch of unlikable people.  The challenges are interesting but the women are either blah (notice how Jill just sits there while Bennie rages on, don't get in the way of the rage monster) or unlikable.

I'll probably watch to the end but too much interpersonal drama.  

Couldn't agree more. I'd love to see just ONE team put the damn blinders on and just train, instead of getting into The Drama. I can't believe they think this is what America wants to see. When the same thing happened to The Biggest Loser, and it became way too much about the gameplay and conflict, they had to take time off and totally change the course of the show to be more positive, in order to save it from cancellation. 

[simplyme]

Eh.  I pretty much agreed with Bennie.  Had this been the first time Dan tried to get Mahogany out of the tower, I might believe it was over an injury.  I also noticed that the more Dan talked, the worse her injury got.  By the time that scene finished, she was "seriously injured."  Had he gone on much longer, she might have been barely clinging to life. *eyeroll*  I do think she had a nagging groin injury, but I wouldn't qualify that as "seriously injured."  I also don't think there's any requirement for someone to be in perfect shape to do the tower or any other competition.  Wes and Jasmine's second run through, they were both banged up.

It also did seem presumptuous to say, "Well, since Mahogany volunteered, you guys are safe."  Maybe that's because I would have put in purple team. *shrugs*

As to Jill simply letting Bennie to the talking: she doesn't seem very assertive. 

I actually don't mind anyone left.  I prefer the challenge portions, but I don't think they'd be able to make a full episode out of just those.  Realistically, it's a competition and they've all been together something like 7 weeks now.  There's going to be SOME drama that occurs.  I think it's been a pretty tame amount for the most part, possibly played up/prodded by production to get a bit more.

[raven]

Yeah, there's a show for everyone :)  I thought Bennie telling Dan what he (Dan) was thinking way more presumptuous than what Dan said.  I naturally dislike loudmouthed people who figure the more you talk over people, the less they will talk back.  

I'm sure production is playing it up, which is why I say it's turning out to not be my kind of show.  I'm not really invested in anyone and only remember Bennie because he's a loud mouthed rage guy and Dan/Mahogany because I just watched the episode.  I also don't like the emphasis on looks in the transformations, but I'm glad the women seem happy with their experiences.

[Kendall]

4 hours ago, simplyme said:

I actually don't mind anyone left.  I prefer the challenge portions, but I don't think they'd be able to make a full episode out of just those.  Realistically, it's a competition and they've all been together something like 7 weeks now.  There's going to be SOME drama that occurs.  I think it's been a pretty tame amount for the most part, possibly played up/prodded by production to get a bit more.

Your description of Dan was hilarious. However, I agree with you. Sure, I'd love more of the competitions and even the training, but I'm someone that likes to workout, health and nutrition. A show that focused solely on that and not the interpersonal dynamics would be on ESPN2, not a major network.

The days of American Gladiator are over or very niche. Not saying that Strong doesn't have a niche audience, but they'd have next to no audience on a major if it were solely about the competitions. Even the shows that do try to keep it all about the competition in American Ninja Warrior on NBC and let's say, the Crossfit Games on ESPN throw in a backstory on the contestants.

I just don't see how $250,000 can be on the line and people not invest anything more than workout time into it. In a better world these women would just want to get into shape and these men would love working pro bono, but all of them could do that right now in private and on their own. They want that money and the Trainers are probably hoping for some extra business outside of this, so if you can't compete physically, then yeah, you'll resort to mind games and pretending that you're invisible until the declaration is made: if you want to be in the Final Four then you will have to go into the tower at least once.

Dan got called out and shown as a weasel and the best part is that it was basically his own partner that did it. Mahogany got what she really wanted: she needed time away from her husband and a jumpstart on the makeover that she thinks will keep him at home. She wanted that even more than she wanted the money.

[ExplainItAgain]

OK, so there's only one tower. I figured that made the most sense. They really edited those earlier episodes well and made it seem like they were head-to-head. You can really tell how much stronger the girls have gotten - the coil ladder seems downright easy now!

Wow, gray team had a record-breaking time and immediately got beat. By FOUR seconds! It sure seemed like yellow got too far behind. I'm going to miss Jasmine a lot - I really liked her. Blue team was right that everyone liked them. I kinda wonder if Wes is single...they make a cute little couple. Jasmine looks great.

I really like this show. I hope it gets a second season.

[pivot]

Man, I am so bummed that gray went home. They were my favorite team by far. Both Bennie and Todd bug the crap out of me, so I guess I am rooting for purple now.

I hope they get a second season as well.

[Kendall]

I'm probably the Grinch, but I'm really okay with Grey going home. It was nice of Purple to give them a physical break and spare them from the Tower, but that also set them on a path to ultimate victory that they simply would not have deserved.

I am so glad that Blue pulled it out on the squat death trap. Where are they getting these recent challenges from? They are so dangerous and they are just invitations for serious injury. Not to mention, it didn't look like the provided padding for the women were properly measured out as some of the guys looked like they were practically standing on their tiptoes to even do the squats.

I'm surprised that no one had gotten their foot or ankle clipped by the boards before. I've never liked that part of the tower. They should've had a lever of some sort that kept the boards in an upright position after clearing it and then forced the players to do a push up or something on it to put it back down.

So, is next week the last week? They only have three teams, how will they be able to go on further and still have a winner that "won" through the tower?

[ClareWalks]

Watching this squat challenge. Holy shit, these people SUCK at squats. Except purple, not a one of them can do decent squats. I am legit shocked by how many of the women said they hadn't been doing any squats, too. It's such a basic leg move, I cannot believe the trainers haven't been hammering it into them. These women should be exceptional at squats and walking lunges by now. WTF are they doing?! And the trainers being terrible at squats is inexcusable. 

[ExplainItAgain]

I'm starting to think that maybe Brittany is the winner. I think she's gotten the most screen time of the three girls. Bennie's gotten a lot of screen time, but we don't know much about Jill except "mom!" Nicole has gotten a bit more screen time, but we haven't delved much into her story (was she the cocktail waitress that didn't want to go back to that?)

Whereas with Brittany, we've heard a lot about her struggles, her kid, her students, etc. We've even had other trainers talk about her and bond with her story. Plus she has the underdog story of losing and the fighting her way back into the competition. The only thing that spoils that narrative is that we've already seen her "after."

I wonder what the finale tower will look like? Surely they will switch it up?

[realdancemom]

I was surprised that Brittany said that she never did squats with either Ky or Todd.  I'm actually not surprised with Ky since he wasn't a good trainer.  Except for purple, the teams were barely bending their knees.  I did like the grey team.  I thought Jasmine was really funny and Wes stayed out of drama. 

This was the first week that I actually kind of liked Bennie.  I think he has anger issues and is a bully.  In regards to Dan last week, I don't think he was afraid of the tower.  He competes in Crossfit games and is a top competitor.  He flew through the corkscrew ladder.  I think he really did want to protect Mahogany since she was injured.  At the end, he gave his medallions to the purple team because he said that they are both Cross-fitters.  I guess that surprised me because I didn't know Nicole was one too.   She is really strong.

Edited May 20, 2016 by realdancemom

[Hiacios]

I can't stand the yellow team and can't believe they beat the grey team in the tower. smh. I hope the blue team wins the whole thing because I've been rooting for them since the beginning.

[Tasya]

I'm ok with anyone winning except purple. I find them to be insufferable braggarts. I was sooo glad to see both Gray and Yellow beat their time because they just know they are the best at every thing. 

[Kendall]

I'm really okay with Purple losing tonight. I've been "meh" on them since they hid behind Grey and positioned them to do the dirty work.

Finally, they returned to a challenge that didn't look like someone would get horribly injured on. I do think that the top number weight should've been 250 or a number that was theoretically out of reach, so it wouldn't have been as simple as "grab all the bags" and you should win.

I could be wrong, but I believe a bone bruise is just below a cracked bone, which goes before a fracture and then out and out broken. At least, I think that is what the doctor told me when they diagnosed my very deep bone bruise. Then again, I was in a lot of pain, so I could've been delirious.

I've been rolling with Bennie since the beginning, so I'm not even surprised that he got them back up to the top, for what, the third time? I was sitting there questioning whether it would be best to do multiple and lighter trips. I think I would've gone that route.

I wonder if the challenges next week include shaving time off the Tower time, which also looks like its been modified with new obstacles.

[pivot]

Meh, purple was the only team left I liked. Bennie got the easiest contestant this season. She is light and was pretty fit when she started. And yellow got back in on a technicality.

A finale between purple and gray would have been perfect. A finale with blue vs. yellow = who cares.

[simplyme]

1 hour ago, pivot said:

Meh, purple was the only team left I liked. Bennie got the easiest contestant this season. She is light and was pretty fit when she started. And yellow got back in on a technicality.

I think it's great Brittany got a second chance considering she was never the problem with her team.  I can see Ky being a good trainer to motivate certain people, but he wasn't able to perform the tasks well himself.  He really wasn't a good match for the show, and poor Brittany essentially dragged him as far as she could.  No other teams had the trainee essentially have to yell at and push and drive the trainer.

Admittedly grey was my favorite team, but I admire Brittany's ability to keep going in the face of adversity.  Jill seems nice but bland (and yes, started out smaller than many others).