S04.E05: Clark's Place

[Tetraneutron]

Yeah, the thing is, Stan's relationship with Matthew was a casualty of his undercover work, but the Jennings are both still basically on top of Henry's day to day life in ways Stan has never been with Matthew on the show. I read some comments where people thought Stan intentionally used Henry to his advantage by having him there to make Matthew's arrival less awkward, but to me it feels like that's another way to avoid Matthew. This kid has a lot of valid issues with his father. The Stan who's great at Trivial Pursuit might be cool and fun, but I don't know if that's particularly addressing Matthew's feelings about him. If he was using Henry to grease the wheels with Matthew I think the dynamic would have been more about Stan/Matthew + Henry when it felt more like Stan/Henry + Matthew.

 

When Matthew was Henry's age, Stan was doing the job Philip and Elizabeth are now - being deep undercover, pretending to be the enemy of all values decent people hold, in order to make his country a safer place. And the first season was how he became disconnected from his wife and son. Of course, it's not exactly the same as what P and E are doing, but Stan was never around for Matthew the way he is for Henry. You would think P and E would be worried that Stan would corrupt Henry the way Paige hanging around Pastor Tim made her religious. 

 

But Stan isn't working Henry. He was working Paige a bit, trying to find out why her parents cancelled Epcot, but with Henry he's exclusively being a surrogate father figure. Like Pastor Tim but not stupid. 

[Knuckles]

"Of course, FBI wouldn't really vet anything. They'd just put her parents in jail."

 

In reality, not true. They would have the same resistance to the idea of an apparently normal American family whose daughter claims they are Soviet spies. It would merit investigation, assuming they find Pastor Tim and Alice credible. If they tossed the Jennings house, they would find the secret room in the basement. 

 

The thing is Philip and Elizabeth have already confirmed to the Pastor and his wife, that they are Soviet spies...but the good kind...like the good witch in the Wizard of Oz. Not the bad, murderous kind trying to destroy the USA. Which is why Alice and Tim continuing to meet with the Jennings is so phenomenally stupid and dangerous. They have no clue about this situation, and no way to assess the information they are being fed. It is not like seeing something odd while going about your day...it is the second meeting, and Tim himself might think back to his first encounter with Philip. And having to haul in the little priest as a convincer?  Makes you wonder if the Pastor and wife have any gut instincts at all. And meeting them alone, in their office, with no one else aware of the meeting? It is all just very dicey.

[RedheadZombie]

I'm still ruminating on the deeper aspects of this episode, but I was taken out of the Nina drama by the guard gathering her belongings. Disposable plastic grocery bags in 1983 Siberia seems really off.

[sistermagpie]

In reality, not true. They would have the same resistance to the idea of an apparently normal American family whose daughter claims they are Soviet spies. It would merit investigation, assuming they find Pastor Tim and Alice credible. If they tossed the Jennings house, they would find the secret room in the basement.

 

 

Oh right, I meant they would throw them in jail after they discovered the truth. They wouldn't have to toss their house--if they checked their background they could figure out that at the least they were living under false identities. At that point there's any number of ways they could be sure. It probably wouldn't take that long since they know about the Illegals and are dying to catch them. This whole idea is not crazy to them.

 

That said, Pastor Tim doesn't seem to have any doubt Paige is telling the truth or that he could get them arrested by calling the FBI. He's not investigating to see if they're really Russian spies, just trying to get more of a sense of what they literally do. Apparently in his mind if they're just meeting with people they're fine. Or at least that's what I get. The stuff about doing the same stuff he does--wanting nuclear disarmament and helping refugees etc., while having some definite truth to it, isn't even really what he seems to be asking. The fact that Father Rivas is allegedly a priest who was protected from harm seems like them trying to sweeten the pot to get him on board with the whole project more so he can feel like by protecting them he's not just not letting harm come to people, he's helping some of his own goals.

 

But yeah, they do seem amazingly without protective instincts. I always said regarding Philip's original trip to see Pastor Tim that I honestly didn't think Pastor Tim was scared. It doesn't seem to have occurred to either of them that they're in danger knowing about a couple of deep cover KGB operatives. Which is kind of beyond dumb. Especially since it doesn't seem like Pastor Tim is into any fringe stuff himself. Like, it's not like he was some radical who was so extreme he might have flirted with dangerous people before even back in the 60s.

 

When Matthew was Henry's age, Stan was doing the job Philip and Elizabeth are now - being deep undercover, pretending to be the enemy of all values decent people hold, in order to make his country a safer place.

 

 

But I think when Stan was doing it he was literally gone. He's not like P&E who are living their cover with Henry a part of it. I assume when he was with the white supremists he was seeing his family infrequently. The move to DC was supposed to be when he connected to them again but he couldn't (probably because of his experiences). I suspect at least at times Stan's time with Henry feels like what he hoped reconnecting with Matthew would be like, but it really isn't.

[jjj]

Pastor Tim is behaving the way I suspect most people would - trying to find a way so it doesn't have to be real. [snip] he doesn't have to worry that he himself, and a member of his flock, is in serious danger by powerful forces he can't stop. He WANTS it all to have a reasonable explanation so he doesn't have to blow up his life one way or another. 

This.  A lot of people would welcome the lifeline of a fish story like this one so they can go back to their lives.  "Oh, good, these parents are not evil empire killers, but do-gooders who are improving the world.  Now I can get back to my regularly scheduled life -- and start to find a new flock, far, far away." 

 

Given how often Paige is running off to Pastor Tim, I gather they do not live far away -- and if I knew there was an FBI agent in the neighborhood, I might want to use him as a resource without giving away the details -- "what if spies were in our midst?" No, that would not get Stan's attention AT ALL! 

 

Stan has seemed surprisingly up front about his occupation -- telling the Jennings on first meeting that he is an FBI agent.  I knew people in the FBI in DC in the time period of this show, and while friends and family would know they worked for the FBI, if asked by neighbors or random people, preferred to say they have an office job in the government, or worked for the Department of the Treasury (which is true).  That is true for a new agent I know now, although harder to put a veil on the occupation outside of DC. 

[crgirl412]

I'm still ruminating on the deeper aspects of this episode, but I was taken out of the Nina drama by the guard gathering her belongings. Disposable plastic grocery bags in 1983 Siberia seems really off.

OMG!  When I saw that it felt really off to me too.  I was 13 in 1983 and remember it still being all paper bags in the US so I highly doubt they had plastic there.  A paper or even rough cloth bag would've been better for the scene. 

[AllyB]

Martha's death could be chalked up to a suicide due to being spurned by her married lover. 

 

If Martha dies her parents are going to have a lot of questions about where Clark is. They have met him several times, have heard many intimate details about him from Martha and have met his 'sister and mother' at the wedding. Offing or disappearing Martha will leave nearly as many loose ends for P&E as her being arrested. The best bet for the KGB is to leave her alone for the next 6 months. Have Clark get messages her to very carefully to keep her calm but other than that avoid all contact and see if suspicion is lifted off her. That probably won't happen though as it would be boring tv.

Stan's still the worst. I wonder if he feels guilty about Nina. Not saying that it's his fault, he did what he had to do -his job-, but he loved her and she would probably still be alive if he had left her alone in the first place, which is a bad combination.

Watching Stan in the scenes at home after finding out about Nina's death, I felt that as genuinely sad as he was to hear of her death, now that he's processed it a weight has been lifted off him. While she was alive he felt genuine responsibility to do whatever he could to save her. Now that it's too late to save her, it's tragic to him but also the relinquishment of a great burden. He isn't thinking consciously that he's happy that she's dead but deep down he's relieved. He was so light-hearted playing with Henry, greeting Matthew, heading off to his new Martha watching mission with a colleague who's tentative trust he won't ever have to screw up in order to help Nina. And to top it off his estranged best friend came over and apologised for causing him to attack him. That was a happy, relaxed Stan that we rarely get to see and I think it was because Nina is dead.

Edited April 16, 2016 by AllyB

[Chaos Theory]

Re: Pastor Tim.

Most people even good people don't want to get involved and will look for even the smallest reason not to. We all like to think we would do the right thing and turn the Jennings in at the whisper they were secret Russians but the vast majority of us just wouldn't. We would make excuses in our own heads. Paige is an angry teenager and probably mistaken, what if we are wrong?, if we get involved the FBI will investigate us and what will they find in our closet?

I very much believe that the liberal leaning Pastor Tim doesn't want to turn in the Jennings for a whole lot of reasons and the Jennings just gave him a big one. He already somewhat believes Regans govt is bad and they gave him further proof and proof that maybe they aren't so bad after all. At this point he wouldn't destroy Paige by turning them in.

At this point.

Edited April 16, 2016 by Chaos Theory

[AllyB]

OMG!  When I saw that it felt really off to me too.  I was 13 in 1983 and remember it still being all paper bags in the US so I highly doubt they had plastic there.  A paper or even rough cloth bag would've been better for the scene. 

I've no experience of what it was like in Russia but in Europe it was all plastic bags in every shop. Even in clothing stores you got your purchases in plastic bags, much fancier ones but still plastic. I had heard stories of prisons giving the families of executed prisoners in Eastern Bloc countries their loved one's goods in a plastic bag. So the minute I saw the guard put Nina's stuff in a plastic bag I knew she was about to be shot.

Edited April 17, 2016 by AllyB

[jjj]

I've no experience of what it was like in Russia but in Europe it was all plastic bags in every shop.

This was not in the current episode (was last week's episode) -- but yes, I was in Germany at this time, and it was plastic bags everywhere, if you did not have your own satchel.  Most people had their own crocheted bags for shopping. 

[mecmimi05]

  Stan has seemed surprisingly up front about his occupation -- telling the Jennings on first meeting that he is an FBI agent.  I knew people in the FBI in DC in the time period of this show, and while friends and family would know they worked for the FBI, if asked by neighbors or random people, preferred to say they have an office job in the government, or worked for the Department of the Treasury (which is true).  That is true for a new agent I know now, although harder to put a veil on the occupation outside of DC

 

My father was an FBI agent for 30 years and we were supposed to say he worked for the Justice Dept not Treasury. I wonder if that has really changed. My father never worked undercover and actually was a forensic scientist in the lab. He traveled a lot to testify in court about evidence and when he flew he had to take his gun on the flight..... in case of a hijacking....he was always relieved he did not have to use it. I think it was the DB Copper hijacking that made the Bureau have agents take their guns on flights. I enjoy FBI plot line, my father was an agent from 1942-72...J. Edgar Hoover ran the place like a tyrant. Every agent was fit and had to pass stringent physicals every year. I am sure he had every piece of paper accounted for.

[Knuckles]

"I honestly didn't think Pastor Tim was scared. It doesn't seem to have occurred to either of them that they're in danger knowing about a couple of deep cover KGB operatives."

 

On this we can agree. Reading the above posters, it does occur to me that despite the fear-heightened atmosphere of the time, especially re Russians, that sense of American exceptionalism might be kicking in as well...that whatever horrors might happen in the rest of the world, we are all safe and happy here. An illusion that took a few more decades to shatter.

[dr pepper]

Instead, it's been a jumping-off point to a deeper exploration of what it means both to keep a secret and to lose it, and how hard it can be to confront other people's secrets.

 

 

 

Well put. Jacob couldn't have said it better,

Why is the sex on this show so very, reliably, awkward?

 

The end scene didn't seem awkward to me, it seemed genuine.

[shura]

Given what we've seen of him it seems like it would work the opposite way like you described. It would show him that he had to turn them in. He's really into the idea that he would die to do what's right and he's basically already told them that the one thing keeping him from turning them in is the possibility that they're not like that.

 

Okay, would Pastor Tim stop and think if it were pointed out to him that his dying for what's right will leave his flock without the invaluable help and guidance he has been providing them with? Especially if he could be convinced that the threat comes from a different department, so to say, and Philip and Elizabeth really are only working on developing contacts to help Salvadorian priests.

 

I wonder if we are expected to think that, off-screen, Pastor Tim got or will look for some kind of "proof" that Father Rivas is what he says he is. Because it really is ridiculous to have them see a random guy walk in and then just take his word without questioning. That's just beyond naive and gullible. Father Rivas was probably like "So... you guys want to play some poker after this?"

[jjj]

My father was an FBI agent for 30 years and we were supposed to say he worked for the Justice Dept not Treasury. I wonder if that has really changed.

I am actually not sure what they are saying now, Treasury or Justice (new agent I know), just know that they don't say, "hey, new neighbor, I'm an agent for the FBI." (!)  I just remember that we were reminded they worked for the "Treasury Department" when we were at weddings, etc., with strangers who did not know who the agents were.  Just seemed that Pastor Tim might know Stan is an FBI agent.   

[viajero]

I didn't get the impression that Pastor Tim was buying the Father Rivas story.  To me he looked skeptical throughout the entire conversation, even when his wife expressed sympathy. 

 

Of course, it could be that I was projecting my own disbelief that Russian spies would somehow manage to find a Salvadorean priest (a disciple of Oscar Romero no less) who would then be willing to credit them with saving his congregation from death squads.  Most of the Catholic left in Central America (including Romero) never saw the Soviets as allies and I have real trouble seeing them cooperating directly on something like this,  Hence Elizabeth's own skepticism that Rivas was for real. To the extent that Pastor Tim had any real involvement with CISPES, he should have been aware of this.

 

On the other hand, CISPES was incredibly paranoid about being linked in any way to the Soviet Union and its proxies.  By 1983 they had been subject to a secret heavy handed investigation by the FBI, which never did find anything incriminating just because they were so careful in this respect. Thus, if Pastor Tim really did "work" with CISPES and given his involvement in the anti-nukes movement (which had similar concerns), I find his response to finding Soviet spies in his congregation very hard to understand.  The natural reaction of anybody in his position at the time would be to try to distance himself from those spies as quickly and thoroughly as possible.

 

So maybe Pastor Tim really is as stupid as everyone is assuming he is. I guess we'll find out in upcoming episodes.

[sistermagpie]

The natural reaction of anybody in his position at the time would be to try to distance himself from those spies as quickly and thoroughly as possible.

 

 

But then, isn't that why he would be a good choice? As far as anyone knows they have nothing to do with it, so finding out they're there invisibly basically says yes, we're on the same side and we're also being invisible so you don't get in trouble.

 

That said, I do think Pastor Tim is skeptical--this is like the only area where he insists on being so: assuring P&E that he's not going to turn them in. So he seems to be still in the same place, not turning them in but still holding the possibility over their head. The priest is just way way convenient.

 

Luckily this totally goes along with Paige's own story (did they give her any details about this?) that *she* is still mad about Pastor Tim betraying her but her parents now like him and think he's a good guy because he's on their side. Paige is saying she feels like the grown-ups are in league against her (and she does feel that way truly in some ways--both Pastor Tim and her parents are more honest with their spouses than her), Philip and Elizabeth are telling Pastor Tim they're all in this conspiracy to save people like Father Rivas together (and that's not totally false in that they are against the people the US are supporting), meanwhile Philip and Elizabeth are also telling Paige that they're all in it together to get Pastor Tim on their side (which is definitely true).

[jjj]

The genius thing would be to ask Pastor Tim to help with a mission in El Salvador.  Get him out of town, get him working in some compromised way, and the noose tightens, if he even returns. 

 

As I said above, if I were Pastor Tim, I would be finding a new flock, far away, pronto. 

Edited April 18, 2016 by jjj

[viajero]

I doubt Pastor Tim would have reacted well to being offered a mission in El Salvador.  Not after those 4 American nuns we're executed by the military at a road block on their way into the city from the airport. 

 

Though it might make sense for Pastor Tim to get as far away as possible, that probably won't work for purposes of the show.  There needs to be a resolution that we can see.  I just hope it´s not completely unbelievable.

[sistermagpie]

The genius thing would be to ask Pastor Tim to help with a mission in El Salvador.  Get him out of town, get him working in some compromised way, and the noose tightens, if he even returns..

 

 

That actually does make sense to me, depending on what they suggested. They do have a stake in South America and there might be something they'd come up with that Pastor Tim ought to do according to his values--like taking in refugees. I have no idea how or if any of that would work, but it seems like it would be an interesting conflict if Pastor Tim drew his line at involvement before Paige thought he would based on stuff he'd said before. I just keep thinking of Elizabeth's first step to recruit her being about how sometimes to make things happen you have to break the law. But I don't know...something has to happen to break this temporary truce it seems to me. Pastor Tim wouldn't have to actually go to El Salvador himself.

Edited April 18, 2016 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

That's the thing though, I think even if Pastor Tim and his wife were contacted by, oh, I dunno, someone other than the frickin' KGB about this I'm not sure they would get that involved. 

 

It's the KGB.  I had many, many problems with things the United States were doing in the 70's and 80's but in no universe would I have teamed up with the KGB!  We WERE getting news out of Russia, Jewish people were being released and telling their tales, we saw the bread lines, we knew about the Gulags, and pogroms.  We were bad, in many, many ways, but they were much worse.  They were nightmare-level scary, not that the CIA/FBI didn't have abuses happening, but our neighbors weren't "disappeared" either.   (I'm just speaking in past tense here because of the setting of the show.)

 

At the time, level of fear of CIA/FBI for your suburban dissenters?  Maybe a 3, at most.   

Level of fear that you were in the sites of the KGB?  Holy shit!  Even at best, a level 5-6 fear level.  Probably more, depending.  On the Pastor's level of involvement, being face to face with embedded KGB agents, one of whom already got violent?  For any sane person that would be at least an 8.

Edited April 18, 2016 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

On the Pastor's level of involvement, being face to face with embedded KGB agents, one of whom already got violent?

 

 

I don't think he's ever seen either one of them violent.

 

That said, my thinking if they ever tried something like this would be that they'd be helping him do something like bring refugees or whatever, not that he'd be helping them in such a way where he'd think of himself as advancing the interests of the USSR. Of course any sane person would know that's what they were doing anyway. I just wondered if they could work Pastor Tim's desire to be a hero in some way.

 

But so far it seems like Pastor Tim is fine with whatever agency they work for and whatever he thinks about the USSR he doesn't connect it to P&E. I honestly have no idea *what* he imagines he's dealing with. But I don't think they've solved that problem by a longshot. It seems like he doesn't assume anything the Jennings tell him is true (except for maybe Paige) and he's still holding off for evidence of whatever he considers "hurting people" is. 

 

He might pull a Viola where one day he's just sitting in church or listening to somebody with bad stories of the USSR and decides to turn them in. Maybe he goes on a retreat and decides this is the right thing to do. Maybe Paige does something to piss him off and he reevaluates. Or he decides on some crazy thing the Jennings have to do to prove themselves that he's not going to do. He's just so obviously not really being "worked" here. He just for some reason still isn't turning them in. He's a ticking time bomb.

[Umbelina]

That’s why, in this episode’s most emotionally explosive moment, Philip ripped into Paige and then ripped into the pages of her Bible. Right then, he wanted to destroy not just Bible stories, but the whole notion that belief systems, his included, can be built on mere narratives. And that’s why, in the episode’s most uncomfortably suspenseful scene, a gloved, irate Philip walked back into that church, whose white, prominent pillars resembled the ones found on U.S. monuments, and asked Pastor Tim if he really believed that grace and forgiveness is available to everyone. “I do,” Tim said, using the same words Philip, as Clark, once said before another man of God, on the day he married Martha. Philip is a man crying out for a spiritual anchor.

 

Philip was pretty damn scary when he confronted Pastor Tim in that church after Paige gave him that $600. 

 

I saw it as violent, and scary, I honestly thought Philip might kill him at that moment. 

 

I have a hard time going with "Pastor Tim is simply a clueless idiot who can't even sense the peril he's in."

Edited April 18, 2016 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

But Philip didn't actually touch the guy so however scary he seemed, Tim hasn't seen him violent. Even after Pastor Tim did something that realistically might have made a regular non KGB dad punch his lights out.

I mean, he isn't acting like somebody in fear of his life.

Edited April 18, 2016 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

Well, he should be.  That's the thing, this guy is politically aware, he reads, he is involved.  If he's just some idiot, I'm not sure I'll care for this story.  Liberals and people who cared about these things = being naive and/or against the USA itself, not the policies, is something I have a hard time buying.  We may not have liked what we were seeing, but enough information was available to know that we damn sure didn't want what was happening in Russia, or to live that kind of life.

 

Him seeing Russian secret operatives as "not dangerous" or "no big deal" is beyond my personal realm of believable. 

[SunnyBeBe]

I wonder if there is a way that Pastor Tim could make some calls and try to confirm the Priest's story.  If he confirms it was a lie, then what will Pastor Tim think at that point? 

 

Even with the FBI checking on P & E's credentials, what would they discover?  I assume they and Page have a passport , considering they have flown abroad.  So, they must have birth certificates and I would also imagine school records, tax returns, etc.  What would give them away?They have a business that requires lots of overtime, which was explain their odd hours, so, I'm not sure just how they would nail them. OH, Paige would nail them. She would likely start blabbing before they pulled the cuffs out.  She just can't stop herself. 

[JennyMominFL]

Well, he should be.  That's the thing, this guy is politically aware, he reads, he is involved.  If he's just some idiot, I'm not sure I'll care for this story.  Liberals and people who cared about these things = being naive and/or against the USA itself, not the policies, is something I have a hard time buying.  We may not have liked what we were seeing, but enough information was available to know that we damn sure didn't want what was happening in Russia, or to live that kind of life.

 

Him seeing Russian secret operatives as "not dangerous" or "no big deal" is beyond my personal realm of believable. 

Hell, I am as liberal as they come but I was in the MIitary in the late 80's. I would NOT have been cool with a KGB agent around. I also would have been well aware of the dangers. I can't believe someone of his age wouldn't be even more aware and concerned, liberal or not.

Edited April 18, 2016 by JennyMominFL

[Umbelina]

Agree JenyMominFL, that's kind of my point.  This story needs to come to a head.  Liberal doesn't mean "pinko commie traitor."

 

Philip and Elizabeth have fake birth records, probably of people long dead.   Any amount of digging with FBI resources would expose that.

I wonder if there is a way that Pastor Tim could make some calls and try to confirm the Priest's story.  If he confirms it was a lie, then what will Pastor Tim think at that point? 

 

Even with the FBI checking on P & E's credentials, what would they discover?  I assume they and Page have a passport , considering they have flown abroad.  So, they must have birth certificates and I would also imagine school records, tax returns, etc.  What would give them away?They have a business that requires lots of overtime, which was explain their odd hours, so, I'm not sure just how they would nail them. OH, Paige would nail them. She would likely start blabbing before they pulled the cuffs out.  She just can't stop herself.

 

[sistermagpie]

I can't understand what Pastor Tim's position either. From what I get from it, I don’t feel like the main thing here is that Pastor Tim is liberal. That’s something that makes P&E see some common ground on some issues, just by coincidence, and it’s a reason he’s not specifically preaching against communism, but I don’t get the sense that this is why he’s not afraid as he should be of the KGB.

 

It feels like that’s more about him being Christian or something. He seems to be trying to separate himself from the entire reality of the Cold War and just making it an abstract moral question: destroying the family is hurtful, but letting other people get hurt is hurtful too. Honestly, you’d think even if he’s that nuts that his wife would be calling the FBI. Why assume she’d just go along with him on everything?

 

So what exactly would it take to get him to turn them in? They’re presumably not going to go to work in front of him, right? What could he suddenly think about regarding the situation in the world that would make them seem in the wrong? When he finally watches The Day After or something? Is going to think they’re contributing to nuclear war instead of stopping it? If the mere idea of Russian spies doesn’t lead him to KGB and therefore to SCARY like it would most of America what’s it going to take?

 

I mean, Philip and Elizabeth aren’t even just people selling secrets or whatever. This isn’t fingering Martha or the colonel who talked to Philip in S1 or an alcoholic CIA agent passing secrets. Philip and Elizabeth embody every pop culture Soviet boogeyman fantasy ever. They’re Russians posing as Americans and passing because of their insanely vigorous training (which they got after being plucked out of their homes as adolescents). They’re deadly assassins, do martial arts, masters of disguise, sex wizards, psychological manipulators. Even without his knowing all of that he still sees them right there as the product of a creepy Soviet program to twist Russians into fake Americans to embed them in this society and he’s asking for details about the work they do? Like their mere existence doesn’t point to some seriously extreme Soviet madness?

 

I don’t quite get where he’s coming from. Even if he doesn’t want to break up Paige’s family it would make more sense if he just claimed he was okay with it so they’d leave him alone. Not act like he’s their guidance counselor deciding whether or not to write their college application or not based on their behavior.

[Tetraneutron]

I mean, Philip and Elizabeth aren’t even just people selling secrets or whatever. This isn’t fingering Martha or the colonel who talked to Philip in S1 or an alcoholic CIA agent passing secrets. Philip and Elizabeth embody every pop culture Soviet boogeyman fantasy ever. They’re Russians posing as Americans and passing because of their insanely vigorous training (which they got after being plucked out of their homes as adolescents). They’re deadly assassins, do martial arts, masters of disguise, sex wizards, psychological manipulators. Even without his knowing all of that he still sees them right there as the product of a creepy Soviet program to twist Russians into fake Americans to embed them in this society and he’s asking for details about the work they do? Like their mere existence doesn’t point to some seriously extreme Soviet madness?

Tim doesn't know about most of that. All he knows from Paige is that they're spies. We don't even know if Paige told him they grew up in Russia. We know Paige knows they speak Russian, but not that they were recruited as teenagers, trained Full Metal Jacket style, were raped and are in a fake marriage. And of course Paige doesn't know about the assassinations, the fighting, the sex, the wigs, or any of that. 

 

Anyone in Pastor Tim's position would be far more likely to believe Paige is making stuff up. Or at least exaggerating. Given the huge gaps in his knowledge, he wants to believe the thing that, given his experience of the world, is the least crazy. It's easier to believe someone is a political activist that the reactionary Reagan government has declared an enemy than to believe the truth. 

[Umbelina]

Paige told him "They aren't even Americans, they're RUSSIANS."

 

Or was it, "They're not who they say they are, they're RUSSIANS."  ?

 

One of those.  She didn't say spies, she said Russians, so that pretty much says they are from there. 

[AllyB]

I mean, Philip and Elizabeth aren’t even just people selling secrets or whatever. This isn’t fingering Martha or the colonel who talked to Philip in S1 or an alcoholic CIA agent passing secrets. Philip and Elizabeth embody every pop culture Soviet boogeyman fantasy ever.

On the otherhand both Gregory and Charles Duluth were American activists who's political leanings led them to embrace working for the KGB. Both gave over their entire identities to their work for the KGB almost as much as Misha and Nadezhda did. Gregory became a drug dealer and Duluth became the public face of an ideology he detests. Obviously that's different to what has happened with Tim and E and P, respectively, would have spent a long time developing Gregory and Duluth before divulging who they worked for. But there is certainly precedent for Americans learning that the American couple they know are KGB and going along with it.

[sistermagpie]

Tim doesn't know about most of that. All he knows from Paige is that they're spies. We don't even know if Paige told him they grew up in Russia.

 

 

 

He does know this part. That was the main thing she was worried about when she called him. On the phone she said they weren't who they said they were, they were not American, they were Russian. And he's been talking to them about "their country" so it's totally out in the open that they're really Russian...yet they have no accents and are living under fake identities and even their kids don't know about. Paige probably told him about her trip to see her grandmother and how that freaked her out.

 

The spying part we found out she'd told him later offscreen, but the Russian part was the main revelation.

 

On the otherhand both Gregory and Charles Duluth were American activists who's political leanings led them to embrace working for the KGB. Both gave over their entire identities to their work for the KGB almost as much as Misha and Nadezhda did.

 

 

Oh right--there totally were Westerners who did works the Soviets. Those two are great examples. But surely with those two they were brought along slowly to the idea of actually working with Russian spies, and P&E only revealed themselves when they had good reason to think they'd be okay with that. With Pastor Tim is was exactly the other way around--the guy doesn't seem to be involved in anything even radical. Most of the people they would have met through the Civil Rights and Anti-War movements never knew who they were and they never would have told them. And a lot of those people would have been kids who were more into the idea of tearing things down rather than a middle-aged guy with a stable position in middle-class society.

Edited April 19, 2016 by sistermagpie

[jjj]

.With Pastor Tim is was exactly the other way around--the guy doesn't seem to be involved in anything even radical.

Well, there was the protest event where I believe he managed to get himself arrested -- I'm not saying that is radical, but puts him on a path that could lead others to radicalism.  But I agree that he does not appear to have the stomach to go there.  The protest was more of a political statement than insurrection. 

[Tetraneutron]

He does know this part. That was the main thing she was worried about when she called him. On the phone she said they weren't who they said they were, they were not American, they were Russian. And he's been talking to them about "their country" so it's totally out in the open that they're really Russian...yet they have no accents and are living under fake identities and even their kids don't know about. Paige probably told him about her trip to see her grandmother and how that freaked her out.

 

The spying part we found out she'd told him later offscreen, but the Russian part was the main revelation.

You're right, she did tell him they were Russians. But she (and therefore Pastor Tim) doesn't know about the vast KGB network that recruited and trained them, the scary people they associated with, the sex and murders and all that other stuff. Paige hasn't asked about the nuts and bolts. And I don't think we can assume Paige told Tim about meeting her grandmother, but even if she did it was a nice visit where nothing went wrong and no one (we saw) had anything bad happen to them. An organization that facilitates visiting a grandmother isn't something one would associate with the stiff P and E actually do.

 

Maybe we can think that Paige and Tim (or at least Tim, who is an adult) should be intensely curious about the nuts and bolts, and should be aggressive in demanding P and E tell them exactly what it is they do. But for Tim at least. P and E have, frankly, lied about it and the question is whether the lie is plausible enough (given Tim's personality and ideology) that they'll buy it. But he is, in his clumsy way, trying to find out what they actually do.

 

I'm always more surprised that he believed Paige at all, and that P and E never hit upon the solution of just acting like Paige is a nutcase who makes things up for attention.

[jjj]

I'm always more surprised that he believed Paige at all, and that P and E never hit upon the solution of just acting like Paige is a nutcase who makes things up for attention.

Really, if an unhappy teenager who thought her parents (or one of them) was having an affair and not paying enough attention to the teenager, and the teenager then walked in one day to say "They are SPIES.  For the RUSSIANS.", I would be very skeptical.  People needing attention exaggerate all kinds of things, or make up stories out of thin air, so acting like Paige was trying desperately to get attention would have been plausible.  And when Paige finally realized the error of her ways, she could have walked the whole story back.  No, I have the feeling that Pastor Tim has been pulled into the KGB web for a plotline that is not going to turn out well for him. 

[sistermagpie]

I'm always more surprised that he believed Paige at all, and that P and E never hit upon the solution of just acting like Paige is a nutcase who makes things up for attention.

 

 

I think that might have made it worse since it would have made Paige angry and more emphatic, plus Pastor Tim's known her for a while and has no real reason think she's making things up. Elizabeth did try that a little by saying "Spies? Is that the word Paige used?" Paige would probably have to really agree to the whole thing in order for them to claim she was telling lies. They told Paige the truth because they were showing her respect so it makes sense to me they wouldn't deal with this by destroying her credibility. That would really be on the same level as killing Pastor Tim and destroying her trust that way, except it might make her tell more people. Like even Stan.

 

You're right, she did tell him they were Russians. But she (and therefore Pastor Tim) doesn't know about the vast KGB network that recruited and trained them, the scary people they associated with, the sex and murders and all that other stuff. Paige hasn't asked about the nuts and bolts.

 

 

I don't think he'd really need to know about the network. The mere fact that they are Russians who present as Americans says they were trained to pass as Americans and they're spies. This is so standard in US pop culture and US imagination (and it had happened) at that time he'd have to actually talk himself out of the idea that they are...exactly what they are. General Hospital was literally doing a Russian Illegals storyline in the spring/summer/fall of 1983 and nobody needed these details to get it. Just their real names being Mischa and Nadia gives the whole idea--that's ironically the whole reason why somebody might believe Paige is being nuts or making things up, that it's such a cliche. 

[dramachick]

I've always thought of Pastor Tim as fundamentally dishonest. He was introduced to us after he took $600 from a 14-year-old without her parents' knowledge or permission.  I don't know of any decent person, let alone religious leader, who would do something like that and not immediately offer to return the money when confronted by an angry parent. 

 

He strikes me as rather narcissistic in that he acts like he's the star of a movie, and everybody else is there in a supporting role.  He is so consumed by his own greatness that he can't see what's really in front of him.

[sistermagpie]

Just for accuracy , he did offer to return the money when confronted by Philip. He just did it without admitting any wrongdoing as if Philip was wrong to even suggest it and it was no big deal if cheap Philip wanted the money. So I totally agree in general with thevrest of thatvtake on him. Star ofbthe movie, everyone else is there to make him look good. Even when he does wrong he thinks he's the hero and morally correct.

[dramachick]

Just for accuracy , he did offer to return the money when confronted by Philip. He just did it without admitting any wrongdoing as if Philip was wrong to even suggest it and it was no big deal if cheap Philip wanted the money. So I totally agree in general with thevrest of thatvtake on him. Star ofbthe movie, everyone else is there to make him look good. Even when he does wrong he thinks he's the hero and morally correct.

 

Yeah, that's technically true, but Pastor Tim is foul, and I can't make myself care about what happens to him. 

 

He inserted himself into Paige's life for his own agenda after it was obvious that her parents didn't approve of him being so involved with her.  He wanted to use the wedge between them so that he could "save" them all.  There's some truth to that old saying, "You can't con an honest man."  He doesn't really care about Paige's welfare.  He's getting something out of Philip and Elizabeth trying to explain themselves and placate him; otherwise, he would have turned them in to the authorities with an anonymous phone call if nothing else.

[sistermagpie]

He inserted himself into Paige's life for his own agenda after it was obvious that her parents didn't approve of him being so involved with her.  He wanted to use the wedge between them so that he could "save" them all.  There's some truth to that old saying, "You can't con an honest man."  He doesn't really care about Paige's welfare.  He's getting something out of Philip and Elizabeth trying to explain themselves and placate him; otherwise, he would have turned them in to the authorities with an anonymous phone call if nothing else.

 

 

This is really the only line that makes sense to me. It just seems like this is the main thing built into the guy. There’s the inappropriate line-crossing (taking all that money, inviting Paige for a sleepover) followed by him taking no responsibility (“I thought you knew about it”), the parental advice, that whole dinner where he goes on about his potential personal heroism (even dismissing Philip when he says something), speaking mostly to Paige who listens avidly before they bring out the whole baptism thing. They even seemed to slip in a little moment when Elizabeth was at the church where he asked Paige to help with something and seemed to be kind of setting her up to work with another kid who appeared to have a crush on her. Then he smiled at Elizabeth about it. It was a tiny moment, but it just struck me as him once again feeling like everybody should just let him to arrange their lives or something.

 

What else is there in this guy’s personality that could possibly lead him to not only sit on the info of Russian spies but intentionally make it about himself both asking the parents to explain themselves and encouraging the kid to get more info to bring to him? (Oh, and also he already told his wife and doesn't even seem to see why that's a betrayal.) We don’t know a lot about the guy, but most of the times we see him it seems like these are the notes he’s hitting.

[SunnyBeBe]

Oh yes, there's always been a real distaste for Pastor Tim, IMO.  I felt it and thought that the character was portrayed that way. I wondered how P&E tolerated the man.  They thought that it would be okay for Paige, but WRONG.   It even seems that P & E have lost their suspicion of him.  Is that an act? Certainly, they don't really think that he has Paige's best interest at heart.  Do they?  He seems pretty sketchy to me.  

[Melissa56789]

 

I'm still ruminating on the deeper aspects of this episode, but I was taken out of the Nina drama by the guard gathering her belongings. Disposable plastic grocery bags in 1983 Siberia seems really off.

 

Me to!

 

I did some googling and found this website on Soviet Union packaging.  http://understandrussia.com/packaging/ 

 

"String bags" would have been more appropriate for 1983.  

 

They didn't start making plastic bags until the 1990s - and even then they were the expensive fancy type - not what we would call disposable grocery bags

[sistermagpie]

They didn't start making plastic bags until the 1990s - and even then they were the expensive fancy type - not what we would call disposable grocery bags

 

 

That's interesting--somebody elsewhere was talking about East Germany at that time and said plastic bags were everywhere so they figured they had them.

 

That said, I note that Philip used the exact kind of string bags pictured on that site to carry his milk and Nina was not at a grocery store, so I wonder what the thinking was behind giving her that bag. Obviously they did some research into bags in general to get Philip's milk carrying bag right. (And in S1 they went out of their way to get the correct kind of paper a Germany assassin would have to take notes, so I can't believe they're just being sloppy.)

 

It even seems that P & E have lost their suspicion of him. Is that an act? Certainly, they don't really think that he has Paige's best interest at heart.  Do they?  He seems pretty sketchy to me.

 

 

I think it's an act, definitely, in that I don't think they've lost any suspicion of him at all. But him caring about Paige (however they mean it) seems to be the main thing that would keep him from telling. It would hurt Paige for her parents to go to jail. Plus I think they're trying to make the thing seem more comfortable for Paige where she doesn't feel completely caught in the middle with her parents hating Pastor Tim and her having to protect him. I think they definitely still see him as the enemy, they just don't want Paige to know they see him that way. And they know that whatever they think about his actions Pastor Tim certainly presents himself as just caring about Paige so they're pretending to believe that earnestly just like they wanted Paige to pretend to forgive him. It's just as they said to her: Make him think that you trust him.

[Chaos Theory]

Oh yes, there's always been a real distaste for Pastor Tim, IMO. I felt it and thought that the character was portrayed that way. I wondered how P&E tolerated the man. They thought that it would be okay for Paige, but WRONG. It even seems that P & E have lost their suspicion of him. Is that an act? Certainly, they don't really think that he has Paige's best interest at heart. Do they? He seems pretty sketchy to me.

Their distaste of Pastor Tim was more Elizabeth suspicious of religion in general. I think she called it the opium of the masses. They were threatened by anything that took from their influence over their daughter. I think P&E only saw the man as a threat when they realized how serious Paige was about her conversion and how close she was to Pastor Tim and his wife. They blindsided P&E with Paiges's wishes to be baptized which could be seen as a passive aggressive act of war.

I don't see Pastor Tim as a threat perse. I still maintain he will not be the one to turn the Jennings in. He is to passive aggressive for that. His major threat is his sway over Paige.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Chaos Theory

[PinkRibbons]

That said, I note that Philip used the exact kind of string bags pictured on that site to carry his milk and Nina was not at a grocery store, so I wonder what the thinking was behind giving her that bag. Obviously they did some research into bags in general to get Philip's milk carrying bag right. (And in S1 they went out of their way to get the correct kind of paper a Germany assassin would have to take notes, so I can't believe they're just being sloppy.)

 

Technically they were a bit sloppy in episode one of this season -- Philip wouldn't have been buying glass bottles of milk, he should have been shown as having his own container that was filled for him.

[gwhh]

A lot of people talk about the lack of "friends" for the Jennings children.  I like how Elizabeth did not like Henry hanging out the FBI agent son, but was talking about Henry other friends as "creepy"!
 

[paramitch]

One thing I don't understand about the Pastor Groovyhair situation -- is why Philip and Elizabeth have never tried to, at the very least, dial back the whole "my parents are Soviet spies thing" into a simple family misunderstanding, in which they perhaps diffused the tension with an explanation to Pastor Tim with something like: "We're so sorry Paige worried or concerned you. Paige had asked us to share about our early lives in [the Ukraine or something similar] and we were perhaps too open with her about some of the struggles we had when coming to America, etc."

 

(Of course, I also think they should have done this with Paige as soon as it was apparent she wasn't taking the news well -- within the first day or two. There were still ways they could've dialed back the "we're spies/suspected killers" thing into something more nebulous and less scary for Paige. And I think Paige would have colluded willingly in it -- after all, Paige is deeply sorry she meddled, and she doesn't want to know what she knows.)

 

I don't think she was working him in any particular way. They talked openly about Martha. They both know she might wind up dead. There's nothing Elizabeth can say about that besides they'll do the best they can. It seemed to me like it was a scene when they were being totally honest with each other and Elizabeth wound it up by honestly just saying, "Hey, I'd really like to fuck now" and they did. It was a great idea on her part. I thought she was asking in large part for herself rather than out of any idea she could turn Philip's head with her sexual prowess.

 

What's interesting about this scene was that I thought it was a deliberate choice by Elizabeth to try to allay Philip's stress and worry in a physical way. He's just sitting there, looking terribly unhappy, and she looks closely at him, then with this very tender expression comes over and initiates sex. What surprised me was that it led to a big intensive encounter between them, since it appeared at first that she was just looking to give him (or both of them) a quick physical release. But I also thought the extension of the scene told us something as well -- they they got caught up in it, and a little lost in it, perhaps all the more believably because they so badly need to get their minds off all fears and worries they're managing right now. But then in the end, the worries and fears were still there. There's no escape. 

 

I was thinking about the double-meaning of the episode title.  Yes, a lot happened at Clark's apartment, his physical "place," but Philip also seems to be struggling with Clark's "place" in Martha's life as well as his own.  Is it Clark or Philip who loves and wants to protect Martha?  'Cause I'm pretty sure one of them actually does (as is Elizabeth, who could lip read Philip's statement through the phone booth). 

 

Great insight, and one I definitely think is deliberate within the script and story.

 

I disagree at least about Martha. Martha has always been loyal and useful. Killing Martha is a zero sum game. It has no benefit even in the short run. All it does is cause more problems. and a lot of them. Assuming that Philip has any feelings for her at all, it putshim at odds with his handler and the mission which he has always been iffy about. It makes the FBI even more suspicious then they already are and they start really investigating her life which will eventually lead them to Clark. The best option is to offer her the same deal they offered Gregory a couple seasons ago and get her gone. There will always be questions about Martha but a dead body is the worst thing they can leave behind. Even a dirty cop getting murdered gets the whole police force engaged.

 

I agree with this, but especially with the value of Martha. I know a lot of people think Martha has to die, but she's worth her weight in platinum to the Soviets right now -- she's inside the FBI. If there's any way at all that she can be saved, it's in their best interest to do so. But -- also -- the fact that she's inside the FBI also means that if they kill her, the heat will be nuclear-levels of intense -- especially after Gene's death and the pen/bug discovery.

 

We've already seen in this show that the KGB in America is good at body disposal, when they don't want a body discovered. Offering Martha a ticket out isn't a good idea, because she has never indicated any allegiance to the Soviets, and she still has a living mother, if I remember right, whom she might be very reluctant to abandon. She simply isn't a reliable defector, and as such she would always pose a threat. 

 

I don't think the reason they haven't killed Martha is any lack of ability to dispose of her remains, but the fact that Philip has been really successful with her for years now, and he doesn't want to jeopardize that for reasons both personal and professional.

 

I can't give enough credit to the writers for the quality of their work.  Sending a Central American (probably fake) Jesuit priest to dangle the glamour of liberation theology in front of Tim and Alice.  Catnip for them!  I'm sure the good Father is only the first step in the plan to reel in the Groovyhairs.  And then the brief moment at the end of the burial scene when Oleg's father fires the gun to represent a forbidden military salute to his dead son.  A totally unexpected and deeply moving moment from a pretty unsympathetic character.

 

I liked both of these moments as well. I like Oleg a lot, and think the way the show manages to parallel Philip and Stan, and Stan and Oleg, for instance, are fascinating.

 

One of the things I like most about this show, is the way it shows that Elizabeth can feel jealous of Martha but still hope for Philip's sake that nothing happens to her, or how Stan and Oleg can both be in love with Nina, and have a weird kind of comeraderie about that.

 

I like that too -- I'm always fascinated by how warm and natural Elizabeth is able to be to Philip about Martha. We do see glimmers of faint jealousy here and there, but what I'm fascinated by is how Elizabeth manages to push those emotions aside almost visibly in order to support him. The compartmentalizing on both their parts is fascinating -- it's as if Clark truly is another person to both of them, and Martha is a part of his life, and not theirs.

 

No, I think they're a study in contrasts:

 

Philip draws strength from his family.

Stan alienates his family.

 

Philip takes no pleasure in deceiving and killing as part of his job.

Stan relishes having the power of life or death over others.

 

Philip subjugates his own desires for the people he cares about.

Stan gives in to his base instincts regardless of the consequences to others.

 

Philip is coolheaded and hard to read.

Stan is a hothead and wears his emotions on his sleeve.
 

On balance, Philip is the better man, but he's on the wrong side.

 

I'd actually agree with a lot of this, although the only one that's up in the air for me is Stan's actual enjoyment of killing or power. I think Stan is at heart a reasonably decent man in a tough position, and whose own emotional reactions (to Nina, or at the death of his partner, etc) have genuinely shocked him. I do think he's kind of a caveman in some ways, but I still think he's mostly a sympathetic guy.

 

Martha's death could be chalked up to a suicide due to being spurned by her married lover.  

 

I also foresee Stan grooming Henry to spy on his parents by presenting it as a game.  Henry loves games (Trivial Pursuit!  Yay!) and technology.

 

I've come to really like Oleg.  It's kind of cliche to think he will become so disillusioned with USSR politics that he'd defect, but it looks like that might happen.  Otherwise how well written is this show that the embassy Russians are not mustache twirling villains?  Oleg and Arkady are presented as decent people, but the leads, Philip and Elizabeth, who are supposed to have our sympathy, are actually terrible people.

 

I'm worried that the Valium is kind of Chekhov's Valium as well -- it would certainly be a very easy way for them to get rid of Martha if they ever have to. (But I hope they don't -- I love her, and I think Alison Wright is wonderful.)

 

I like Oleg too, and am very interested to see what happens next with him. I've been very surprised by how much I like the actor and the character now -- in the beginning I thought he was kind of smarmy and insufferable but now I think there's something genuinely likable and rootable about him. I like Oleg's capacity for emotion -- so many people on this show are so bottled up, so maybe that's what I like about him, his open capacity for joy, grief, and love. 

[sistermagpie]

One thing I don't understand about the Pastor Groovyhair situation -- is why Philip and Elizabeth have never tried to, at the very least, dial back the whole "my parents are Soviet spies thing" into a simple family misunderstanding, in which they perhaps diffused the tension with an explanation to Pastor Tim with something like: "We're so sorry Paige worried or concerned you. Paige had asked us to share about our early lives in [the Ukraine or something similar] and we were perhaps too open with her about some of the struggles we had when coming to America, etc."

 

 

My feeling with this is always that they just didn't think they could do it. I mean, they did try to dial it back with "Spies? Is that the word Paige used?" but it would probably be very difficult to walk into a situation where Paige has been discussing this with Pastor Tim for days (months/years, really, given the lead up to it) and then hope you can sell him a cover story about it. Paige told him exactly what they said, we assume, and that's what they have to deal with. Early life in the Ukraine doesn't explain the things Paige has noticed now, for instance, like them running out of the house at all hours. If they come in lying it might make the situation worse. So they're trying to dial it back by focusing on stuff they might have a hand in that Pastor Tim would be okay with.

 

What's interesting about this scene was that I thought it was a deliberate choice by Elizabeth to try to allay Philip's stress and worry in a physical way. He's just sitting there, looking terribly unhappy, and she looks closely at him, then with this very tender expression comes over and initiates sex.

 

 

Yeah, I thought so too. But I mostly just wanted to quote "He's just sitting there, looking terrible unhappy..." because that's what he's usually doing.

 

The compartmentalizing on both their parts is fascinating -- it's as if Clark truly is another person to both of them, and Martha is a part of his life, and not theirs.

 

 

I like especially how it's evolved over the years on Elizabeth's part. Because I get the feeling that Philip isn't always aware of exactly how he feels about Martha because he's in the relationship so it's hard to stand outside it and observe it. He just speaks up when Elizabeth says something wrong, where she doesn't get it. But Elizabeth, I feel, has been trying to make sense of it for a while and it's great seeing her try little experiments or ways of dealing with it. Like in S1 she gives him what seems to be a significant necklace to give to Martha because she's angry at him--at that point Martha isn't a threat. Then in S2 she would jokingly refer to Martha as "your wife" and Philip would correct her that she wasn't. So okay, it wasn't a joke between them. Then she tries the "I'd like to be with Clark" to be part of the relationship that way and it's a disaster. In S3 she said it was okay he had feelings for Martha and Philip snapped at her like she was giving him permission. Now she's trying to just be compassionate to him, but still trying to understand it, saying "You want to do the right thing" while asserting her ownership over him. Eventually they need to have a clearer conversation about it because I feel like Elizabeth is insecure but, as you say, trying to push those feelings away for him.

 

On Philip's part I feel like he might not get how secure Elizabeth is. I think this might be one of those times when he's just not able to understand where she's coming from. Like if she flat-out said she worried he was in love with Martha I think he'd be completely shocked. All these gestures on her part I think might come across very differently to him than she means them, or the way they come across to us.

 

I'm worried that the Valium is kind of Chekhov's Valium as well -- it would certainly be a very easy way for them to get rid of Martha if they ever have to. (But I hope they don't -- I love her, and I think Alison Wright is wonderful.)

 

Ha--I love that we now have Chekhov's Valium and Chekhov's gun. Which will go off first?

 

I like Oleg's capacity for emotion -- so many people on this show are so bottled up, so maybe that's what I like about him, his open capacity for joy, grief, and love.

 

And I feel like part of the backstory for that might be that his upbringing was very privileged compared to many of the other Russian characters. Not that class always leads to openness, but for instance, where Oleg is obviously used to his father being overbearing or controlling, he also feels he can say what he feels to him. He comes from what seems like a close, functional and until recently intact family.

[hellmouse]

On 4/16/2016 at 10:35 PM, Tetraneutron said:

I don't know. You get someone actively involved in, I don't know, pro-Palestinian stuff, or protesting the US propping up Middle Eastern dictators, and you tell them, "No, we don't work for al-Qaeda, that's not us, we just have Muslim allies the US is demonizing for oil money. We're on the side of innocent Muslims in Gitmo, but the US government calls them al-Qaeda agents" you could probably sell it. You have to seriously soft-pedal, and completely lie, but it's doable. Also, Pastor Tim is really naive. He WANTS to believe that so much. (Sorry to bring real world politics in here). 

I agree about Pastor Tim being naive (bolded comment above) and so part of their plan with Pastor Tim is to flatter the part of him that thinks he's a noble hero. I remember the conversation at Paige's birthday, where he talks about college and his realizations about "i won't kill or die", and then how he got arrested at the nuclear facility demonstration... Pastor Tim sees himself as not just one of the good guys but a role model good guy, willing to take risks and make tough choices. Philip and Elizabeth don't see him that way at all, but they see it as an angle they can play. 

So it makes sense that they'd bring in someone who he would identify with - the brave hero risk-taking priest from El Salvador. Pastor Tim sees himself in that priest (sub-consciously, and I don't think he's aware of it), so it plays to his naivete and may help make him more pliable. They have to do whatever they can to bolster the only other defense they have, which is his affection for Paige.