Wynonna Earp - General Discussion

[UNOSEZ]

37 minutes ago, FurryFury said:

I didn't expect Dolls dying, but I don't have a problem with it. He kinda stopped being important to the show somewhere in s2, so I see it as dropping unnecessary baggage, from the storytelling point. And I always preferred Doc/Wynonna anyway (I guess I'll be labeled a racist now?)

Hey.. If after you've seen this convo in this thread you've come away thinking that I or maybe any of us believe that anyone who preferred Doc/Nonna is a racist or bigot or something along those lines lemme clearly and unequivocally say that's not the case.. What i tried to convey was a general dismay/frustration at the way the writing /creative team handled the character of Dolls specifically and how the Sci-Fi /Comic genre deals with race overall... We spoke about tropes we've all seen... And how nasty fandom get and all the diff ways ppl go out of their way to say "its not about race" even when the issues generally only pop up when blk characters are involved.. 

 

Now if u were just trolling.. Then I wasted my time this a.m typing all this but if you're for real I'd leave you with this bit of no shade intended criticism... Assuming the worst in the ppl you wanna have discourse with prob won't get you far... If you come out here open to discussion you won't be disappointed... But if you come out thinking were gonna get at you or that we'd think the worst well the convo is done before it began.. And I for one would like to hear from a Doc/Nonna fan

[strippedhalo]

3 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

And I for one would like to hear from a Doc/Nonna fan

(Full disclosure: I'm white.)

I really love Doc/Wynonna, but I also liked Dolls and Wynonna, and ALSO think that Dolls and Doc together have had some of the best chemistry. (What I'm saying is that I was hoping for a Dolls/Wynonna/Doc endgame, even though I knew I was never going to get it.) However, I don't need the romance angle to feel attached to a story/show or to the characters. There are SO MANY things that they could have done with Dolls besides hooking him up with Wynonna (if they had decided not to go that route). Hell, they set a few of them up in this episode.

I was NOT expecting Dolls to be killed off, and was extremely dismayed when I realized that was what we were getting. I'm not great at picking up subtext, so I didn't catch any of the foreshadowing anvils, and only understood Dolls was a goner at the same time Wynonna did. I saw the promo stuff about "changing the team forever" but for some reason I assumed that meant that one of the team would go evil - it never occurred to me that someone would be killed off.

a) WTF.

b) If you're going to kill off a main character, give him a proper send-off! Make him the focus of the episode so that people remember that they love him before you yank him away from them. (I re-watched S1 recently, but S2 isn't on Canadian Netflix yet so I haven't seen it since I watched it live last summer/fall.) I mean, even I might have picked up on the impending exit if there had been more of Dolls in the episode, which I guess would ruin the shock factor, but come on.

c) I feel like everyone working in TV/movies at this point should at least be aware of what the perception will be if you kill off your only POC lead. If you have to write that character off of your show (in this case, for the valid reason that the actor is leaving to pursue other opportunities), then you need to really carefully consider whether the character actually needs to be killed off instead of another type of exit. Dolls' death wasn't the sort of gut punch to me that it sounds like it was for some of you, but I still winced at the implications.

I will continue to watch the show, because I love it and I love the remaining characters, but I'm disappointed that Dolls is gone, and I'm disappointed in the way he went.

[Jacks-Son]

2 hours ago, strippedhalo said:

(What I'm saying is that I was hoping for a Dolls/Wynonna/Doc endgame, even though I knew I was never going to get it.)

Interesting: a Dolls/Wynonna/Doc endgame? You mean more of the same?  How is that an endgame when they never bothered to include Dolls deeply?  Anyway, now that was a well written eulogy and an honest assessment of what the writers of this episode and perhaps the past seasons did wrong. I always thought writers sat in a room with a white board and hashed out ideas together.  You mean to tell me that nobody in that room thought that perhaps they were approaching their WE team dynamics wrong.  I think the writing team worried more about their meta-one liners than the actual WE team dynamics and how they affect each other.  A lot of the emotional dialogue was superficial, just quips for laughs. Not much was meaningful. Why did Doc and Dolls have a problem with each other? Was it because of Wynonna and if so, why was it never discussed? Not even for a minute. Why was nothing discussed, even for a minute? Wynonna was frustrated with Doc because he wouldn't touch her unless they were fighting, They went from sending their child away to not talking or having any intimacy; then they get out of a scrape, hit the bar, share a drink and then poof!, all better. No discussion in between; the only discussion about the Doc/Wynonna situation was through Waverley discussing it with Nicole or Waves giving Wynonna platitudes. ***Jeremy discussed Dolls changes with Doc, NOT Dolls or even Wynonna (The object of their concerns was left out of the scenes); Doc shows his concerns about Dolls with Jeremy, not Dolls.  He's your friend, talk to him. Wynonna always seemed to have a problem with WayHaught, has Wynonna ever discussed her feelings with Waverley OR the woman she loves?  When Nicole was falling off the cliff and begged Wynonna to let her fall, Wynonna refused to, we all know why she wouldn't and it was NOT because of a Gay death implication, it was because Wynonna knew she couldn't let her baby sister's lover die, yet they never had a conversation about how Wyn felt about her. I know a lot of stuff is subtext, but shit, subtext and quips and jokes are not a story, they're Cliff Notes.

iZombie had a recent death in the episode titled, "Insane in the Germ Brain", where a little girl, not yet 18, was dying of cancer and they couldn't "save" her life by turning her into a zombie. That little girl was in their lives for no more than 3-4 episodes, but she became part of the main characters family. When she finally died, there was more care, sorrow, pain and grief shown for a one-off character, than Wynonna Earp writers showed for a character that has been on the show for three years and was a main character. I had dust in my eyes.  :-(

 

*** Correction, Jeremy did have a small vague discussion with Dolls about the effects of taking more of his serum, just before handing him his serum case,.

Edited July 30, 2018 by Jacks-Son
Correction on Jeremy/Dolls interaction.

[william0102]

I think they meant a polyamorous relationship. I don't think that's the right term, but I would have been fine with the three in a romantic relationship together. Anything would have been better than bouncing Wynonna back and forth.

[Jacks-Son]

1 hour ago, william0102 said:

I think they meant a polyamorous relationship. I don't think that's the right term, but I would have been fine with the three in a romantic relationship together. Anything would have been better than bouncing Wynonna back and forth.

Interesting, that you say it would have been better than Wynonna bouncing back and forth.  Did you get that feeling that she was bouncing back and forth? I'm not trying to be funny, or suggest that there could have been no back and forth since there was only one romantic relationship. (Although one could argue that) No, my question is more a question of perception.  Did you perceive there was more to their dynamics than otherwise made obviously plain.  Did you get the sense that there was something between Dolls and Wynonna?  I know the answer is what we've been discussing, but I'm trying to find out if YOU, personally thought there were feelings beyond partners-in-law. Not a trick question.  I got the sense that there was, and others here did.  I'm trying to understand why the show made me feel there was something there yet never even pursued the possibility.  It brings me back to what @Mammalib said in the previous thread,  It's an ugly truth:

I'm gonna make it real simple, that black man has no shot in this triangle. I don't even know why they put Dolls in this position in the first place. White supremacy and particularly white male superiority has to be highlighted. Some of you may think that has nothing to with it but it does along with most things in society. Ask yourself how many triangle situations you have seen in movies and T.V with a black and white male suitor where the black man got the girl. Just look at te way this triangle has played out, Dolls has barely been in the game and has had to basically repress his feelings while Doc has basically had an intimate relationship with Wynonna.

[UNOSEZ]

11 minutes ago, Jacks-Son said:

Interesting, that you say it would have been better than Wynonna bouncing back and forth.  Did you get that feeling that she was bouncing back and forth? I'm not trying to be funny, or suggest that there could have been no back and forth since there was only one romantic relationship. (Although one could argue that) No, my question is more a question of perception.  Did you perceive there was more to their dynamics than otherwise made obviously plain.  Did you get the sense that there was something between Dolls and Wynonna?  I know the answer is what we've been discussing, but I'm trying to find out if YOU, personally thought there were feelings beyond partners-in-law. Not a trick question.  I got the sense that there was, and others here did.  I'm trying to understand why the show made me feel there was something there yet never even pursued the possibility.  It brings me back to what @Mammalib said in the previous thread,  It's an ugly truth:

It felt to me like it was closer to her and dolls at firat... Then Dolls disobeyed orders to help Nonna at the end of season one.. Got jailed , and right before he almost gets killed by that Lady Lucero...  his last act was to save purgatory...   And then hes in hiding.. And somewhere in there wynonna sleeps with Doc again.. Gets pregnant and well Dolls was just in a weird holding pattern that never cleared up... At least to me.. But like you and @mommalib expressed.. They kinda had him put his stuff on the backburner while she worked out whatever... And somewhere either upthread or in another episode thread it was stated that maybe Dolls and Nonna were endgame.. And Dictate was meant to be temporary and that's why he and Nonna got physical so soon into the show... 

 

I mean if that was the intention ( and on its face even knowing how it ended up that sounds feasible) the execution didn't match that and that's not what came across 

[mommalib]

19 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

It felt to me like it was closer to her and dolls at firat... Then Dolls disobeyed orders to help Nonna at the end of season one.. Got jailed , and right before he almost gets killed by that Lady Lucero...  his last act was to save purgatory...   And then hes in hiding.. And somewhere in there wynonna sleeps with Doc again.. Gets pregnant and well Dolls was just in a weird holding pattern that never cleared up... At least to me.. But like you and @mommalib expressed.. They kinda had him put his stuff on the backburner while she worked out whatever... And somewhere either upthread or in another episode thread it was stated that maybe Dolls and Nonna were endgame.. And Dictate was meant to be temporary and that's why he and Nonna got physical so soon into the show... 

 

I mean if that was the intention ( and on its face even knowing how it ended up that sounds feasible) the execution didn't match that and that's not what came across 

I don't know maybe Dolls and Nonna endgame was on that table at a point, but the combination of lack of development for Dolls and the lack of expression for Dolls as far as the triangle, not to mention the history for black male characters when it comes to white female characters particularly the lead white female, I can't help but be skeptical.

[Jacks-Son]

Did anyone catch Dolls line in the the season premiere where he said that Wynonna made the wrong choice?  Why write that in the storyline?  In retrospect, it's a strange line considering what came after.  Why imply that there was something there down to the end, even in death.  In my estimation, EA and her crew are better at writing lesbian relationships than heterosexual ones.  I don't know how much much Emily Andras had to do with "Lost Girl" as opposed to Michelle Lovretta with regard to Bo's relationship with Lauren, but they seem to know how to write better for women than men because they suck at it.  Wynonna and Doc's relationship is nothing to write home about but the WayHaught relationships seems very loving and tender.  I don't know if if it's just not in Wynonna's character to be loving. 

[Big Bad Wolf]

Kind of a messy episode. And if they were going to kill Dolls off, he should have been the focus of the episode, not a side character in an episode which focused on a seemingly 'filler' plotline of Waverly locked in a cage. Not great writing.

Edited July 31, 2018 by Big Bad Wolf

[strippedhalo]

12 hours ago, william0102 said:

but I would have been fine with the three in a romantic relationship together.

Yes, that's what I meant. I think the kids are saying "throuple" now?

[Sweet Tee]

So, if you can tell by my icon, I'm a fan of Doc Holliday in any form of media.  I went through a period in my teen years where I watched any Wyatt Earp/OK Corral movie I could find because I was obsessed to see all the Doc portrayals.  The only reason I started watching this show was because I was so tickled that Doc was a part of it.  So, he is my favorite character for reasons that predate this show.  And yes, I ship him and Wynonna.

 

Having said that, based on the first season, I was 100% certain she would end up with Dolls.  They seemed to have this kind of deep connection and they obviously had feelings for each other that they couldn't express because of...IDK, reasons I guess.  And Doc was meant to be a temporary fling or the loser of the triangle.  It wasn't until the very end of season 1, I thought she and Doc were forming a more emotional bond.  Plus, I vaguely remember Emily Andras addressing the triangle by saying something like "everyone chooses a lawman in the end."  So, I accepted that Wynonna/Dolls were endgame.  Perhaps that was naive of me.  It never occurred to me that they wouldn't end up together because Dolls is black.  I watched Lost Girl and I saw what happened to Hale.  I should have known better.  (BTW, I'm still pissed about that.  He and Kensi had like three scenes together as an actual couple and then BOOM, he's dead.  That relationship was so mishandled).

 

I'm not sure what happened in season two, but they definitely seemed to change their minds about what they were originally doing with Dolls.  He didn't have any authority anymore and aside from the kiss and the spooning, they dropped the Wynonna/Dolls romantic stuff.  Maybe it was the pregnancy and making Doc the father just made sense.  So, that inevitably gives Wynonna and Doc more of a connection than they previously had.  Even now that they've given her up, she's still something they both have and they both love.  No one else can get it like they do.  But, that's just a guess.  I honestly don't know why they seemed to shift away from Wynonna/Dolls to Wynonna/Doc but that's the vibe I got from last season.  Dolls barely had anything to do last year.  Which is weird because the season started off about him in a lot of ways.  Once they got him back, he was just in the background.  This didn't really hit me until the season finale last year.  He was barely in it.  The season finale and the supposed male lead had nothing to do in it.  So, if Shamier wanted to leave, maybe he was dissatisfied with how his character had stagnated.  They spend a lot of time in the first season hinting at a huge backstory for him and they never really got into it.

 

In a vacuum, I'm fine with this.  Dolls was never a favorite of mine and yeah, I ship the other pairing in the triangle.  However, I do acknowledge there is a larger issue here.  Even if Shamier wanted to be killed off.  They had two episodes this season to do it properly.  They could have had a two episode mini-arc all about him and really let him go out in a blaze of glory.  It felt like an afterthought.  Not a true goodbye to a main character.  When I think of great character deaths, this one won't even crack the top 20.  I'm not sure what this is meant to accomplish either.  To make Wynonna depressed?  She's already depressed about Alice.  Piling it on like this is just pointless.

[Jacks-Son]

5 hours ago, Sweet Tee said:

Plus, I vaguely remember Emily Andras addressing the triangle by saying something like "everyone chooses a lawman in the end."

Nice post. Thanks for posting your opinion on this delicate subject. You mention an Emily Andras comment about choosing a lawman, do you remember where you saw this? I'd like to look it up and see if I can figure out what changed or if anything really has with her.

 

Just found this article, thought I'd share. It provides some interesting tidbits about Shamier's casting and what EA had planned for him;

Wynonna Earp: Interview: Shamier Anderson

From the articles and what he indicated he'd like to see would the future for Dolls on the show, he did NOT sound like a guy who was getting ready to move on to something else. The role seemed ideal for him as a wannabe cop IRL.  Something sounds fishy with EA's interview about the Death of Dolls.

Edited July 31, 2018 by Jacks-Son

[UNOSEZ]

58 minutes ago, Jacks-Son said:

From the articles and what he indicated he'd like to see would the future for Dolls on the show, he did NOT sound like a guy who was getting ready to move on to something else. The role seemed ideal for him as a wannabe cop IRL.  Something sounds fishy with EA's interview about the Death of Dolls.

Well the interview is still probably right after season one was done.. Or about to be.. Maybe he was still hopeful that what he saw happening would change.. If I remember what EA said about Shamier giving them another year... But season 2 was even worse.. And before he turned into Canadian Jimmy Olsen I guess he asked up outta there... Of all the things he wished for.. I do wish he had more tine with waverly 

[Jacks-Son]

42 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

Of all the things he wished for.. I do wish he had more tine with waverly 

That (as the two had a good relationship and they cared for each other, since he protected Waverley with his life and he actually died saving Nicole or preventing the lapdog from keeping Wynonna from saving Nicole [One Must Die -- Why?]), and the whole dragon genetic transformation along with Eliza's (Rachel Skarsten) partnership. Another fail for this show.

Was listening to Tales of the Black Badge podcast and callers were wondering if there was a secret relationship between Dolls and Wynonna why was it hidden.  Was it a secret because of Alice and Doc. One caller seemed to think that in the interim between the finale and episode 2 of this season, there had been a liaison between Dolls and Wyn, because of the look between them.  Honestly, if in the next few episodes, IF I WATCH THEM, it is revealed that they had hooked up and were together behind the scenes, I'll be even MORE pissed!!!

[UNOSEZ]

1 hour ago, Jacks-Son said:

Honestly, if in the next few episodes, IF I WATCH THEM, it is revealed that they had hooked up and were together behind the scenes, I'll be even MORE pissed!!!

If it does.  It'll just be another show.. Doing the old dead minority friend/lover/partner/ mentor thing I've seen in so many shows... They exist to assist their white star.. And their  death spurs the star(s)  on to new adventures and emotional beats.. They also provide diversity armor so when pesky naysayers like me start complaining someone can point and say... Well the star was in love with ( insert minority here)  but they died and it was tragic and now they are getting in with their lives... Let's just all get our popcorn ready for Friday.. Cuz I think even tho I like the show this week is gonna be a hate-watch for me. 

[Jacks-Son]

4 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

Cuz I think even tho I like the show this week is gonna be a hate-watch for me. 

Talk about being in a mood, I've already stopped speaking with my brother. Who has never been very sympathetic when only a  POC of color dies on a show.  He recently told me after I bitched about Dolls dying, "What, now Black people can't die in a show??"  Needless to say, I told him let's not talk race ever again.  I thought my parents had raised him better. We had once argued that Black people were getting paid less because of their race, he told me, "It's their own fault. If they don't like it they should look for a higher paying job!" He kind of missed the point, obviously. As a mixed-race (AA/Hispanic Baby Boomer raised in Flushing, Queens), I don't take that shit, even from my brother.

[Lugal]

On 7/20/2018 at 4:30 AM, Proclone said:

I do think Wynonna is sort of ambivalent about Nicole.  She doesn't really dislike her but she's not a big fan either.  I don't think this has anything to do with the fact Nicole is a woman dating Waverly, but rather that Nicole is a human that is dating Waverly.  I think Wynonna is predisposed not to like the person (any person) that Waverly is dating.  Part of it is because, I think like many siblings, she doesn't think anyone is good enough for Waverly.  I also think another part is that she is jealous of Nicole and Waverly's relationship.  I don't think that Wynonna is fond of not being the most important person in Waverly's life.  I also think she worries that Waverly's relationship with Nicole will take Waverly away from her.  I think she has a big fear that Waverly will abandon her and doesn't realize that Waverly can love her and love someone else too.   She showed jealously over their relationship before she even knew it was a relationship in the first season when she sarcastically asked if Nicole was Waverly's best friend now.  Now, none this makes her the world's greatest sister, but I do think it makes her an interesting character, YMMV.  And I'd like her and Nicole to spend more time together and maybe get to a place where Nicole's relationship with Waverly doesn't threaten Wynonna as much.  Their Pussy Willows escapades last season seemed like a good start.

I would agree, Wynonna is also a bit self-centered and has some serious abandonment issues.  I also agree that she's jealous, or maybe just envious, of Waverly and Nicole, not just for the said abandonment issues, but that Waverly and Nicole have a relatively normal relationship (revenants and demons notwithstanding) while Wynonna is torn between a dragon-man (and her former boss) and a 166 year old man who rode with her GGgrandfather and has a whole load of problems of his own.

On 7/20/2018 at 8:11 PM, Jacks-Son said:

What was up with the whole "Eat a dick!" battle cry from Wynonna?  Even she (Wynonna) was embarrassed about it and begged others to make her stop uttering it.  She began to shout it again, when Doc called her off.  I would have thought Emily Andras would refrain from such graphic language especially for a show which is pretty loose when it comes to sexuality.

That struck me more as a quip that Wynonna thought sounded so badass in her head, but when she said it out loud realized it was much lamer than she thought it was.

[UNOSEZ]

@Jacks-Son...  I feel ya man.. Race just gets so tricky even amongst us POC's we all got our own stuff..  That's got little to do with white America writ Large... But that is most def a topic for another place... Flushing huh... Ur Mets are a disgrace.. I'm on the other side of the bqe and I still prefer having no team to those Mets... Lol

[Jacks-Son]

5 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

Ur Mets are a disgrace.. I'm on the other side of the bqe and I still prefer having no team to those Mets... Lol

Grew up across the Flushing Bridge from Shea, now Citi Field.  Was a Mets fan growing up, My brother was/is a Yankees fan.  That's another difference.  :=). Yeah, you mentioned you were from Brooklyn.  Enjoy Friday's episode. <Facetious comment>

[mommalib]

11 hours ago, Sweet Tee said:

So, if you can tell by my icon, I'm a fan of Doc Holliday in any form of media.  I went through a period in my teen years where I watched any Wyatt Earp/OK Corral movie I could find because I was obsessed to see all the Doc portrayals.  The only reason I started watching this show was because I was so tickled that Doc was a part of it.  So, he is my favorite character for reasons that predate this show.  And yes, I ship him and Wynonna.

 

Having said that, based on the first season, I was 100% certain she would end up with Dolls.  They seemed to have this kind of deep connection and they obviously had feelings for each other that they couldn't express because of...IDK, reasons I guess.  And Doc was meant to be a temporary fling or the loser of the triangle.  It wasn't until the very end of season 1, I thought she and Doc were forming a more emotional bond.  Plus, I vaguely remember Emily Andras addressing the triangle by saying something like "everyone chooses a lawman in the end."  So, I accepted that Wynonna/Dolls were endgame.  Perhaps that was naive of me.  It never occurred to me that they wouldn't end up together because Dolls is black.  I watched Lost Girl and I saw what happened to Hale.  I should have known better.  (BTW, I'm still pissed about that.  He and Kensi had like three scenes together as an actual couple and then BOOM, he's dead.  That relationship was so mishandled).

 

I'm not sure what happened in season two, but they definitely seemed to change their minds about what they were originally doing with Dolls.  He didn't have any authority anymore and aside from the kiss and the spooning, they dropped the Wynonna/Dolls romantic stuff.  Maybe it was the pregnancy and making Doc the father just made sense.  So, that inevitably gives Wynonna and Doc more of a connection than they previously had.  Even now that they've given her up, she's still something they both have and they both love.  No one else can get it like they do.  But, that's just a guess.  I honestly don't know why they seemed to shift away from Wynonna/Dolls to Wynonna/Doc but that's the vibe I got from last season.  Dolls barely had anything to do last year.  Which is weird because the season started off about him in a lot of ways.  Once they got him back, he was just in the background.  This didn't really hit me until the season finale last year.  He was barely in it.  The season finale and the supposed male lead had nothing to do in it.  So, if Shamier wanted to leave, maybe he was dissatisfied with how his character had stagnated.  They spend a lot of time in the first season hinting at a huge backstory for him and they never really got into it.

 

In a vacuum, I'm fine with this.  Dolls was never a favorite of mine and yeah, I ship the other pairing in the triangle.  However, I do acknowledge there is a larger issue here.  Even if Shamier wanted to be killed off.  They had two episodes this season to do it properly.  They could have had a two episode mini-arc all about him and really let him go out in a blaze of glory.  It felt like an afterthought.  Not a true goodbye to a main character.  When I think of great character deaths, this one won't even crack the top 20.  I'm not sure what this is meant to accomplish either.  To make Wynonna depressed?  She's already depressed about Alice.  Piling it on like this is just pointless.

I believe they started the switch to Wyn/Doc in between season 1 and 2 probably after some kind of racist backlash. And the only way they could truly accomplish this  is by relegating Dolls to the background just like the Supergirl show runners did Jimmy. Sure they would sprinkle Dolls around here and there but they would never really develope him or let him be expressive particularly when it came to Wynonna.

[UNOSEZ]

6 minutes ago, mommalib said:

I believe they started the switch to Wyn/Doc in between season 1 and 2 probably after some kind of racist backlash. And the only way they could truly accomplish this  is by relegating Dolls to the background just like the Supergirl show runners did Jimmy. Sure they would sprinkle Dolls around here and there but they would never really develope him or let him be expressive particularly when it came to Wynonna.

I don't like what happened to the Dolls character.. And I read a good piece on it on The Mary sue.. But what happened to Mechad... Man that was something else he was dropped so fast especially for being the "2nd billed star" with no real in story reasoning... And then they just had him disappear... He didn't get to ask why.. Or be upset or confused... He didn't share but a few scenes alone with the star... Compared to all the work and alone time in season one... And the flimsy reasoning they gave the main character for not pursuing what they were pursuing during season one.. Was almost immediately contradicted.. By the main character and her new fav person...  So yeah there are similarities even down to 2nd billing... But being overshadowed by the sister.. The other ( white)  guy.  Hell even the Sister's girlfriend got more to do in parts of season 2... 

 

But the backlash to Jimmy was two fold... One he was a blk guy playing Jimmy... Two he was the blk lead who would supposedly be the main love interest... Abd from day one they HATED all of that 

[Jacks-Son]

May I ask where all this is coming from? I never heard about any backlash against Eggs (his character's name in "True Blood". 

Again, why start something, casting an AA Jimmy Olsen if you aren't prepared to back it up and just cave to some fans. Things will never change if everybody just gives in. I suppose AmeneniDude can't date Linda in Lucifer. That's stupid. The guy's a freaking Angel, you can't get any more pure that. He's God's chosen according to him. Unless you object to a Black Angel. Whoa!!!!

[Jacks-Son]

1 hour ago, UNOSEZ said:

The Mary sue

Thanks for pointing an uninitiated nerd to this site.  I enjoy reading articles on Syfy/Fantasy. Mostly, I've been reading Crooks and Liars and HuffPo, but sometimes it can be so depressing have to hit up SyFy sites and lately, with all the cancellations, that can be even more depressing.  Hey, at least we still have Dutch, unless they kill her off too, since she played Ghost in "Ant-man and the Wasp".

[Sweet Tee]

Quote

You mention an Emily Andras comment about choosing a lawman, do you remember where you saw this? I'd like to look it up and see if I can figure out what changed or if anything really has with her.

 

I'm sorry.  I can't remember.  It was from quite a while back.  Midway into season one, I believe.  I've never watched Supergirl, so I'll take everyone's word for it on that one.  The biggest show I know this was a problem on was Sleepy Hollow.  I've never seen a show so determined to destroy itself like that one did.  Literally, all fans were asking was that Abby be treated like the lead character she started as.  And the powers that be stubbornly refused all the way to their cancellation.  I'm so baffled by that entire situation.  

[Jacks-Son]

Well, They killed Carter (Taraji P. Henson) on "Person of Interest", just when she and Reese were showing interest in each other (I think, though it may have been Fusco, because Reese had his back and forth with Zoe at the time).  However, that may be due to her being cast in "Empire". I remember there was an uproar then, even Reese went on an extensive vicious spree in retaliation.  I think Reese and Fusco took great delight in making her murderers pay.

[mommalib]

2 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

I don't like what happened to the Dolls character.. And I read a good piece on it on The Mary sue.. But what happened to Mechad... Man that was something else he was dropped so fast especially for being the "2nd billed star" with no real in story reasoning... And then they just had him disappear... He didn't get to ask why.. Or be upset or confused... He didn't share but a few scenes alone with the star... Compared to all the work and alone time in season one... And the flimsy reasoning they gave the main character for not pursuing what they were pursuing during season one.. Was almost immediately contradicted.. By the main character and her new fav person...  So yeah there are similarities even down to 2nd billing... But being overshadowed by the sister.. The other ( white)  guy.  Hell even the Sister's girlfriend got more to do in parts of season 2... 

 

But the backlash to Jimmy was two fold... One he was a blk guy playing Jimmy... Two he was the blk lead who would supposedly be the main love interest... Abd from day one they HATED all of that 

I was just pointing out the similarities but I agree about what happened to Mechad/Jimmy. Hopefully he gets more shine in season 4. 

[Jacks-Son]

27 minutes ago, Sweet Tee said:

I'm sorry.  I can't remember.  It was from quite a while back.  Midway into season one, I believe. 

S'Cool.  Just asking. Thanks.

[FurryFury]

Just my two cents, but James Olsen and Kara had zero chemistry (except for the pilot) and the whole relationship barely had any fans by itself and honestly was a failure, writing- and casting-wise. Nothing to do with race. I watched the show live back then and I remember fandom reactions. It's only after they broke up people started to take up arms because of the race stuff. And race stuff wasn't the case - it just didn't work (and I DO notice when race stuff comes into work on US shows. I mean, with The Vampire Diaries and Bonnie, hoo boy, it was so noticeable!).

Also, I'm pretty sure he's in a relationship with another white female on the show right now, so I don't see a problem.

As for Dolls - I don't think the shift to Doc was caused by any kind of racism. I don't actually know what caused it, because most of online fandom is taken up by WayHaught which I find boring, so no idea about their fans (or WynDolls). Maybe it was a combination of factors we don't know about. I do think WynDoc is just more fun, dynamic-wise, and bring more to the show, but I was annoyed they never expanded on Dolls' backstory or gave him a fitting send-off. In fact, I wasn't sure we was dead-dead before reading the forums...

Edited August 1, 2018 by FurryFury

[Jacks-Son]

36 minutes ago, FurryFury said:

I mean, with The Vampire Diaries and Bonnie, hoo boy, it was so noticeable!).

I agree about the lack of chemistry between Jimmy Olsen and Kara. There was no heat. It was kind of boring. So, I don't blame race for their "breakup". However, I do have to add that a lot of the complaints aren't about his relationship with Kara, it's about his role on the show. He went from Kara's potential love interest to a forgotten character. Most of the time he wasn't in the episodes or just a small CatCo shout-out. Than TPTB turned him into Guardian just to give him something to do.

As to my quote of your comment, what about Bonnie’s situation was so noticeable? I don’t remember anything racial-wise except for her lack of any air-time.  Most of the time, Bonnie was MIA from episodes, if that’s what you mean, I agree.  Her relationship with Enzo came from out of the blue and was probably an attempt to keep her character involved in the show, but Eww! Bonnie & Enzo, a mythic love story? Who’s idea was that?

Edited August 1, 2018 by Jacks-Son

[mommalib]

1 hour ago, FurryFury said:

Just my two cents, but James Olsen and Kara had zero chemistry (except for the pilot) and the whole relationship barely had any fans by itself and honestly was a failure, writing- and casting-wise. Nothing to do with race. I watched the show live back then and I remember fandom reactions. It's only after they broke up people started to take up arms because of the race stuff. And race stuff wasn't the case - it just didn't work (and I DO notice when race stuff comes into work on US shows. I mean, with The Vampire Diaries and Bonnie, hoo boy, it was so noticeable!).

Also, I'm pretty sure he's in a relationship with another white female on the show right now, so I don't see a problem.

As for Dolls - I don't think the shift to Doc was caused by any kind of racism. I don't actually know what caused it, because most of online fandom is taken up by WayHaught which I find boring, so no idea about their fans (or WynDolls). Maybe it was a combination of factors we don't know about. I do think WynDoc is just more fun, dynamic-wise, and bring more to the show, but I was annoyed they never expanded on Dolls' backstory or gave him a fitting send-off. In fact, I wasn't sure we was dead-dead before reading the forums...

 

Words like chemistry have become so overused. How do we know what kind of chemistry Jimmy and Kara had when they weren't even written as couple. It was basically Kara pining and Jimmy being indecisive because of his ex. And yeah he's with another white female but she is a supporting character. In my experience it's usually a problem when a black guy is with a white female lead. Jimmy got demoted all together as an individual and as a love interest. And as another poster said there was backlash against Jimmy from the jump.

1 hour ago, Jacks-Son said:

I agree about the lack of chemistry between Jimmy Olsen and Kara. There was no heat. It was kind of boring. So, I don't blame race for their "breakup". However, I do have to add that a lot of the complaints aren't about his relationship with Kara, it's about his role on the show. He went from Kara's potential love interest to a forgotten character. Most of the time he wasn't in the episodes or just a small CatCo shout-out. Than TPTB turned him into Guardian just to give him something to do.

As to my quote of your comment, what about Bonnie’s situation was so noticeable? I don’t remember anything racial-wise except for her lack of any air-time.  Most of the time, Bonnie was MIA from episodes, if that’s what you mean, I agree.  Her relationship with Enzo came from out of the blue and was probably an attempt to keep her character involved in the show, but Eww! Bonnie & Enzo, a mythic love story? Who’s idea was that?

 

Again there was no heat because the writing wasn't there. If it's not on the page you won't see it on the screen. Jimmy and Kara were written as friends outside of one kiss before they brought in the magical white guy, by the way people weren't all that crazy him either.

Edited August 1, 2018 by mommalib

[raven]

18 hours ago, Sweet Tee said:

I'm sorry.  I can't remember.  It was from quite a while back.  Midway into season one, I believe. 

I remember this and I think it was said by a character on the show as a taunt to Doc.  Maybe Bobo or another revenant said it, I don't remember exactly, but it was in regards to the Wynonna/Dolls/Doc relationship.

Shamier Anderson posted a nice goodbye on twitter, where he thanks everyone individually.  He does call the experience bittersweet but his thank yous seem heartfelt and honest.

[StarBrand]

There should definitely be a separate thread for this Dolls-death discusssion, becasue very little of this post has been talking about most (if not all) of the episode.

Having said that, I was kind of surprised Dolls was offed. There was a lot of story to tell for him, to be sure, but the actor wanted to go, and was given the choice of how they went out, and heroic exit it was. So talk of "lazy" writing and "killing the black guy first" tropes are irrelevant, becasue this was not the writer's decision to off him. Maybe they messed up his character, sure, I can go with that. Maybe the death was a tad anticlimactic, sure.

 

Overall, it seems so far, the season (Dolls death or not) has taken an overall darker tone than before, although there is still some humor put in for some levity.

[Jacks-Son]

47 minutes ago, mommalib said:

Again there was no heat because the writing wasn't there. If it's not on the page you won't see it on the screen. Jimmy and Kara were written as friends outside of one kiss before they brought in the magical white guy, by the way people weren't all that crazy him either.

Sometimes, the writing isn’t there but something jumps off the screen and the writers have to improvise (e.g. Felicity Smoak) The writers stupidly thought they could shoe-horn a Black Jimmy Olsen into a White Canon role. That wasn’t going to make it anyway, then they compounded it by not at least letting something build between them by writing some interaction between the two leads. They’re doing it agin with James and Lena. I like Katie McGrath, I alway have, even when she was on Merlin, however she and James are blah! As for bringing in the White guy with Kara, that was her boyfriend IRL, so they thought they could capitalize on it, again with Mon-El, whom I hated on TVD. Maybe Melissa Benoist has Katherine McPhee syndrome. The writing on Supergirl lacks fire and passion. Something they lost when Calista Flockhart left and they haven’t found anyone to fill that role. Jesse Rath is not going to do that, he was sort of Blah in “Defiance”, and this new shift in the players is an admission that the chemistry is all wrong in the cast.

[Sweet Tee]

3 hours ago, FurryFury said:

most of online fandom is taken up by WayHaught which I find boring,

Same here. Good God, the WE fandom is a dull place because all anybody ever talks about is WayHaught.  They are the least interesting part of the show to me.  It's mainly because I think Dominique is the worst actor on the show.  I cringe at nearly every line she delivers. 

[mommalib]

1 hour ago, StarBrand said:

There should definitely be a separate thread for this Dolls-death discusssion, becasue very little of this post has been talking about most (if not all) of the episode.

Having said that, I was kind of surprised Dolls was offed. There was a lot of story to tell for him, to be sure, but the actor wanted to go, and was given the choice of how they went out, and heroic exit it was. So talk of "lazy" writing and "killing the black guy first" tropes are irrelevant, becasue this was not the writer's decision to off him. Maybe they messed up his character, sure, I can go with that. Maybe the death was a tad anticlimactic, sure.

 

Overall, it seems so far, the season (Dolls death or not) has taken an overall darker tone than before, although there is still some humor put in for some levity.

I think them messing up the character is apart of the reason Shamier wanted to leave so it's all relevant.

[mommalib]

1 hour ago, Jacks-Son said:

Sometimes, the writing isn’t there but something jumps off the screen and the writers have to improvise (e.g. Felicity Smoak) The writers stupidly thought they could shoe-horn a Black Jimmy Olsen into a White Canon role. That wasn’t going to make it anyway, then they compounded it by not at least letting something build between them by writing some interaction between the two leads. They’re doing it agin with James and Lena. I like Katie McGrath, I alway have, even when she was on Merlin, however she and James are blah! As for bringing in the White guy with Kara, that was her boyfriend IRL, so they thought they could capitalize on it, again with Mon-El, whom I hated on TVD. Maybe Melissa Benoist has Katherine McPhee syndrome. The writing on Supergirl lacks fire and passion. Something they lost when Calista Flockhart left and they haven’t found anyone to fill that role. Jesse Rath is not going to do that, he was sort of Blah in “Defiance”, and this new shift in the players is an admission that the chemistry is all wrong in the cast.

Exactly they are doing the same thing with James and Lena as they did James and Kara which I also saw with Dolls and Wynonna, it's like the writers are holding back, And what is Katherine Mcphee sydrome ?

[Jacks-Son]

56 minutes ago, mommalib said:

And what is Katherine Mcphee sydrome ?

Dating your co-stars. Melissa dated her James rebound when they were co-stars on "Glee". Katherine McPhee dated her co-star on "Scorpion".

[Cranberry]

I don't mind some OT meanderings, but this thread is getting a little too off the topic of the episode. Please try to make sure your posts at least reference Wynonna Earp! Also, if anyone can think of a good title for an ongoing thread about this show's handling of race and wants to start that, feel free!

[FurryFury]

18 hours ago, Jacks-Son said:

As to my quote of your comment, what about Bonnie’s situation was so noticeable? I don’t remember anything racial-wise except for her lack of any air-time.  Most of the time, Bonnie was MIA from episodes, if that’s what you mean, I agree.  Her relationship with Enzo came from out of the blue and was probably an attempt to keep her character involved in the show, but Eww! Bonnie & Enzo, a mythic love story? Who’s idea was that?

It wasn't just Bonnie. All black characters in the first few seasons were Bennet family or other witches, no exception. It certainly raised my eyebrows. And then she was really treated nowhere as good, screentime- and story-wise as Elena or Caroline, even though she had lots of potential. They just shoved her into boring-ass romances instead of focusing on the witch stuff (except for when she was needed for the plot, so she really came out like the Magical Negro trope).

 

17 hours ago, mommalib said:

Words like chemistry have become so overused. How do we know what kind of chemistry Jimmy and Kara had when they weren't even written as couple

You don't need to be written as a couple to have chemistry. And they were THE main couple for the whole first season, they had plenty of chances. 

 I think the biggest problem was James being a bland character from the get-go. Just not enough characterization. Great actors can overcome such problems, but I wasn't impressed with Brooks.

[Jacks-Son]

2 hours ago, Cranberry said:

I don't mind some OT meanderings, but this thread is getting a little too off the topic of the episode. Please try to make sure your posts at least reference Wynonna Earp! Also, if anyone can think of a good title for an ongoing thread about this show's handling of race and wants to start that, feel free!

I was wondering when the Yellow Stipe would make its appearance, Honestly, you've been very patient in allowing it so far; although some of us have been trying to deflect the thread to a more appropriate topic heading.  Very gracious of you.  I would hope the more vocal and eloquent posters here would like to suggest a suitable heading along with restrictions on foul language, anger, racists taunts and general uncouth behavior.  I must commend all those who have posted in this thread for having the grace to be tolerant and not provoke any animosity. I know of two or three candidates who might relish the chance to clear the air. 

Edited August 2, 2018 by Jacks-Son

[Jacks-Son]

2 hours ago, FurryFury said:

It wasn't just Bonnie. All black characters in the first few seasons were Bennet family or other witches, no exception. It certainly raised my eyebrows. And then she was really treated nowhere as good, screentime- and story-wise as Elena or Caroline, even though she had lots of potential. They just shoved her into boring-ass romances instead of focusing on the witch stuff (except for when she was needed for the plot, so she really came out like the Magical Negro trope)

Oh, Yeah, I had forgotten that whole bad trend towards "black witch deaths" and the Bennet family abuse at the hand of the writers. 

[UNOSEZ]

1 hour ago, Jacks-Son said:

Oh, Yeah, I had forgotten that whole bad trend towards "black witch deaths" and the Bennet family abuse at the hand of the writers. 

Bonnie was literally a magic negro.. Add that to the general subservience of seemingly every Bennet to some white person or another... And how many times she sacrificed her body and happiness( Abigail Mills anyone?) ... She was by far the shows fave punching bag( Raven Reyes anyone?)... Add to that her D-list toxic romances ( seriously Kai was in love with her and her big Love was psycho Enzo)...  how she'd get nerfed when they needed Elena or Caroline to be powerful(Marcel Gerard anyone? ) .. Or just had her dissapear for parts of an episode or all of it ( Wally West / Jimmy Olsen anyone? )  Bonnie was treated like dirt... subject to damn near all the bad tropes involving POC...As I've said beforeon these genre shows specifically  ( tho TV in general)  when you cast a blk person ( or an LGBTQIA person.. As those two particular minorities tend to get the biggest initial negative reaction) you gotta know the fight that's coming... You gotta push thru the thinly veiled dog whistles of things like "both chemistry " or "forced"... You gotta expect a little apathy or unease in a viewing public who haven't had to watch characters who don't look like them in spaces and roles that normally house ppl who do... You gotta have some patience and some resolve... And finally you gotta have some faith that if you continue to put out good material and don't buckle to the first signs of pressure.. They will come around...  Too many shows either lose nerve and move characters around.  Hide them in the back and call it new creative directions... Or they never intended to fight the good fight and only cast whoever they did to pay lip service... And to get folks like me amped up... 

Which is why I wanna give a shout out to the expanse... ( they do a great job) 

I promise I was trying not to push this epi thread in odd directions again... But Bonnie and how she got done dirty just always gets me going... 

[Jacks-Son]

13 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

I promise I was trying not to push this epi thread in odd directions again... But Bonnie and how she got done dirty just always gets me going.

I think you can guess who's name is on the list of 2-3 people I would nominate to create a thread for just such discussions?

 

As I said unthread, Mon-El, or Kai, was not one of my favorite characters. Neither was Enzo. Psychopaths do not make good bedfellows.

[bosawks]

I don’t know what I’m going to miss more his smile or his coat.

That was a seriously awesome coat and a seriously awesome smile. 

[raven]

Other titles and/or suggest your own:

Road to Hell: Race, Gender, etc on WE

Haught Topics: Race, Gender, etc on WE

Tell that Devil: Race, Gender, etc on WE

[raven]

4 hours ago, Jacks-Son said:

 I would hope the more vocal and eloquent posters here would like to suggest a suitable heading along with restrictions on foul language, anger, racists taunts and general uncouth behavior.

I'm neither vocal nor eloquent but set one up; please add your comments and suggestions as to what the title should be.  I did this because yes, you all are posting thoughtfully but unfortunately I don't know most of the non-Earp characters you are referring to!

[mommalib]

6 hours ago, FurryFury said:

It wasn't just Bonnie. All black characters in the first few seasons were Bennet family or other witches, no exception. It certainly raised my eyebrows. And then she was really treated nowhere as good, screentime- and story-wise as Elena or Caroline, even though she had lots of potential. They just shoved her into boring-ass romances instead of focusing on the witch stuff (except for when she was needed for the plot, so she really came out like the Magical Negro trope).

 

You don't need to be written as a couple to have chemistry. And they were THE main couple for the whole first season, they had plenty of chances. 

 I think the biggest problem was James being a bland character from the get-go. Just not enough characterization. Great actors can overcome such problems, but I wasn't impressed with Brooks.

They weren't a couple, there wasn't even any will they or won't they tension.. I don't know what chances you speak of.

[Jacks-Son]

15 minutes ago, raven said:

Road to Hell: Race, Gender, etc on WE

There we go, initiative.  I vote for the above.  I think Too Haught, and Haught Topics will either exclude those who find WayHaught boring or mislead them to make it seem that is the central topic, when in reality, we find ALL discrimination abhorrent both in life and on the small screen.  Also, what happens, as it inevitably will, when you get some homophobic comments or posters or racists? Do we deal with it ourselves, gracefully, or will we need to rely on the TOS of this board?  There should be some guidelines on what sort of behavior is tolerable. This is a social board not a battleground.  Moderator, are there already guidelines in place for such a thread?  Is it part of the TOS? Also, is Gender the proper topic inclusion?  Why would anyone object to a specific gender as part of a thread?  I'm not trying to be silly, I just don't think in terms of discrimination in terms of Gender, I know there is, but it's not how I personally think.  However, Substituting LGBT or LGBTQIA may pose a problem for some people.  They may feel uncomfortable posting to such a thread.  I know that's what we're tying to eliminate but it's just a thought.  Thumbs up, @raven.

[Jacks-Son]

42 minutes ago, raven said:

I'm neither vocal nor eloquent but set one up; please add your comments and suggestions as to what the title should be.  I did this because yes, you all are posting thoughtfully but unfortunately I don't know most of the non-Earp characters you are referring to!

Sorry, I did't see this post until I replied to your post in the new thread.  My comment to this post is there.  IT brings up some of the same issues you brought up here. As far as not knowing non-Earp characters, that's fine, some of the posters have already gone over my head and I had to Google the character, term, acronym, situation to find out what they were talking about.  I had no idea there was a web site called Mary Sue, nor have I ever heard of LGBTQIA, Hell, I didn't even know what a "Pansexual" was or someone introduced the new kids terminology of "Throuple", another term I have never heard of.  You could just either fanwank it or Google it, depending on your curiosity.

[raven]

2 minutes ago, Jacks-Son said:

  Also, what happens, as it inevitably will, when you get some homophobic comments or posters or racists? Do we deal with it ourselves, gracefully, or will we need to rely on the TOS of this board?

PTV does not want posters to engage racist or homophobic remarks; report them instead.  PTV does not tolerate racism or homophobia (I am a mod BTW, but for this show I am just a fellow poster).

3 minutes ago, Jacks-Son said:

 Why would anyone object to a specific gender as part of a thread?

They may not.  I was just trying to come up with quick topic titles, so I encourage everyone who is interested to make editing suggestions. 

I agree with your comments about "Haught" but it was the first play on words that came to mind :)  I hate portmanteau names so I avoided the one for this show, LOL.