Wynonna Earp - General Discussion

[Proclone]

11 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

He was the 2nd billed star and treated like the 5th man.. Of course he wanted to move on... We know more about Nicole haught.. Then we did dolls.. And while I could get into a whole other thing about it... My main concern initially is the big trend to kill off ( usually the only blk character)  in some grand sacrifice for the multitudes of surviving white folk.. Like his life is now complete because gave his life for them.. I even pointed out where I've seen it happen recently in my previous post... So one its just tiresome two I absolutely blame TPTB because how are the 3rd 4th and 5th stars of the show all more developed than the 2nd?.. They pitched  him as a co-lead and maybe some folks who wouldn't have otherwise tuned in.. And those ppl saw something they've seen time and  time again... Something much better than tokenism.. But not really full inclusivity... From his TV guide interview I get the feeling there were many things he wanted for his character... And we know he didn't get... What we got left with.. Is a character who got treated like the 5th star.. With almost no real exploration of his motivations.. All we know is that he loved Wynonna.. Had to take drugs... Could be dangerous when angry.. And was super selfless and noble... So noble that he gave his life... So now we get to see his almost all white friends be super sad... And for  a show I really like.. That's a bummer 

I'm not going to comment on the race issues because...well I'm incredibly white and don't feel qualified to speak on it.  So, divorcing it from the unfortunate implications having to do with race for a moment, in the first season I think Dolls was the second (or at least third, behind Waverly) lead, but I think the show shifted as the creators' perceptions of which characters and pairings were more popular changed. 

I think that originally Dolls' and Doc's relationship with Wynonna were meant to be reversed with Dolls being the more will-they-won't-they, and Doc being second fiddle.  I think that's why Wynonna and Doc wound up knocking boots so fast, as the relationship was not meant to be the more significant one for Wynonna and the writers didn't feel the need for a slow burn.  However, I think plans changed after the first season aired and what the powers-that-be perceived (whether rightly or wrongly) to be the more popular characters and the popular pairings.  So in the second season, the focus shifted away from Dolls in general (he was absent for a chunk, which I don't know if it was a creative choice or because of circumstances) and definitely away from a Dolls/Wynonna pairing.  I think some of the shift in focus to Doc was the unavoidable byproduct of the Wynonna's pregnancy and his being the father.  But some of the shift I think was due to the writers thinking that Doc and Wynonna were the more popular pairing amongst fans.

That shift left the writers unsure what to do with Dolls as their plans for his character had changed.  Which is a pity because I think there was a story to tell with him apart from his relationship with Wynonna.  But that being said, given that his character had been underwritten for a while, I can't say I was crushed that he's gone.  Nor can I blame Shamier for wanting to leave.  I actually think to give him a heroic death is preferable to having him wander around aimlessly in the background, only coming to the forefront when Wynonna needs support.  I think the latter has it's own worse unfortunate implications, YMMV. 

I hardly think Wynonna Earp is a perfect show.  Sometimes the special effects are wonky, the story is sometimes a bit muddled and the pacing can be uneven.  That being said I do continue to enjoy it for what it is, a usually funny, sometimes dramatic, sometimes legitimately spooky show.  I also generally think despite story and pacing problems the acting is generally top-notch (at least from the core cast) and I mostly keep coming back for that.  Both Mel and Dom were outstanding (I thought) in the scene with Dolls' body.  So I will forgive them their missteps with the character of Dolls and give the writers and Shamier Anderson credit that they realized the character no longer fit and didn't continue to try and pound a square peg in a round hole.

 

*Edited to add*  On a completely unrelated note (and super shallow), can I just say that I vastly prefer Nicole's uniform this season to last season (since I can't remember if we caught more than a fleeting glance at last episode).  I actually liked that Nicole looked like an actual sheriff's deputy in the first season (even with the kind of dorky hat). And I might be in the minority, but I wasn't overly fond of the "sexy" one she wore last season.  It didn't appear to be anything any police department would ever let an employee wear not to mention it didn't seem at all practical for Canadian winters.  This season's one is much better an actually looks like it could be an actual uniform without being quite as buttoned up as the one in the first season.  I actually think the button down shirt with a few buttons undone is much sexier than the skin tight, deep v thing she had going on last year anyway.   And I agree with Wynonna that I like the boots.

Edited July 28, 2018 by Proclone

[UNOSEZ]

1 hour ago, Proclone said:

I'm not going to comment on the race issues because...well I'm incredibly white and don't feel qualified to speak on it.  So, divorcing it from the unfortunate implications having to do with race for a moment, in the first season I think Dolls was the second (or at least third, behind Waverly) lead, but I think the show shifted as the creators' perceptions of which characters and pairings were more popular changed. 

I think that originally Dolls' and Doc's relationship with Wynonna were meant to be reversed with Dolls being the more will-they-won't-they, and Doc being second fiddle.  I think that's why Wynonna and Doc wound up knocking boots so fast, as the relationship was not meant to be the more significant one for Wynonna and the writers didn't feel the need for a slow burn.  However, I think plans changed after the first season aired and what the powers-that-be perceived (whether rightly or wrongly) to be the more popular characters and the popular pairings.  So in the second season, the focus shifted away from Dolls in general (he was absent for a chunk, which I don't know if it was a creative choice or because of circumstances) and definitely away from a Dolls/Wynonna pairing.  I think some of the shift in focus to Doc was the unavoidable byproduct of the Wynonna's pregnancy and his being the father.  But some of the shift I think was due to the writers thinking that Doc and Wynonna were the more popular pairing amongst fans.

That shift left the writers unsure what to do with Dolls as their plans for his character had changed.  Which is a pity because I think there was a story to tell with him apart from his relationship with Wynonna.  But that being said, given that his character had been underwritten for a while, I can't say I was crushed that he's gone.  Nor can I blame Shamier for wanting to leave.  I actually think to give him a heroic death is preferable to having him wander around aimlessly in the background, only coming to the forefront when Wynonna needs support.  I think the latter has it's own worse unfortunate implications, YMMV. 

I hardly think Wynonna Earp is a perfect show.  Sometimes the special effects are wonky, the story is sometimes a bit muddled and the pacing can be uneven.  That being said I do continue to enjoy it for what it is, a usually funny, sometimes dramatic, sometimes legitimately spooky show.  I also generally think despite story and pacing problems the acting is generally top-notch (at least from the core cast) and I mostly keep coming back for that.  Both Mel and Dom were outstanding (I thought) in the scene with Dolls' body.  So I will forgive them their missteps with the character of Dolls and give the writers and Shamier Anderson credit that they realized the character no longer fit and didn't continue to try and pound a square peg in a round hole.

I appreciate that.. And that honestly is kinda what I thought happened... That maybe after the first season they decided that either because if backlash or low interest they would push dolls into the background a bit... And in a vacuum cleaner I can't really complain about that.. But they cast shamier... They knew going in he was gonna be the co-lead.. Much of  the promo material had him and Wynonna together... I gotta believe they knew that casting a black person as co-star/2nd bilking and the possible love interest of the white star would have issues ( especially in the comic book / superhero/ Sci-Fi world... I don't  think I need to show y'all what happened with Jimmy Olsen or Iris West or Abby from sleepy Hollow and I could go on... They also had to have known.. Or at least hoped that by casting Shamier... That some folks who may have not been checking for the show otherwise would look in to see how it went... And unfortunately they seemed to move their show closer to the former than the latter.. 

Now that's their choice and it may make the most business sense as the majority of  the fan base seems to respond better to Doc/Wynonna and of  course Wayhaught... But it is sad because they caved... Casting Shamier was I assume firstly a choice as the best available for the vision of  the character but also a message that the sometimes subtle and other times outright racial bias / hostility  of  a probably small but definitely loud faction of  Sci-Fi fandom would not get to make all the decisions... But in the end they caved... 

And while yeah heroic death seems nice.. As I posted earlier its been done  for the lone black guy on the show a few to many times and what's probably worse is.. Now our remaining white hero gets to use that death as a catalyst for new emotions and scenes.. That somehow never got used with the actual black character who died... Now all the love she had for him.. That until this episode many were confused as to its veracity.. Will propel her to all sorts of  places and scenarios... Scenarios I'm almost 100% sure will mainly involve other white characters ( and the one New black character who im sure is in the way) 

 

I'm sorry this is so long.. Its just that I've seen this playbook  and I'm angry that its popping up again on a show I like so much.. 

[raven]

Well I was enjoying this one, with the old school horror feel and the "booby trap" pantomime was fun, right until the end.  I don't know what to think about it and I'm not happy that Dolls is dead.  Of course he could come back (Shamier Anderson says on his Twitter he will address this episode on Monday) but this felt pretty final.

I do wonder if Emily Andras considered the implications that @UNOSEZ speaks about.  I think the show was caught off guard by 1) the positive reception to Wynonna/Doc and 2) the overwhelming support of Nicole/Waverly, so those two pairings will take up a lot of screen time.    Personally I don't think Wynonna is ready for a serious relationship so I was fine with the sort of triangle.  There's plenty of drama in Wynonna's life in a short span of time with finding out she's the heir, fighting revenants, dead sister alive, kills said sister, has baby, gives up baby and on and on.  I also never liked the baby story line, it lends a permanence to Doc/Wynonna that the show didn't need; they could have shot around MS's pregnancy. 

If EA couldn't come up with better storylines for Dolls - and though I liked the idea of the serum and him having some kind of power, I thought the dragon stuff was kind of cheesy - then I don't blame Shamier Anderson for wanting to leave.  There were good scenes between Dolls and Doc, that relationship could have been explored, or possibly mentoring Jeremy.

15 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

We know more about Nicole haught.. Then we did dolls..

This is true, not excusing the show, I think it's because again, the popularity of the Nicole/Waverly pairing.  Still, we could have gotten back story on Dolls, his past, what brought him to Black Badge, etc and tied that into the Triangle somehow.

5 hours ago, Proclone said:

I actually think to give him a heroic death is preferable to having him wander around aimlessly in the background, only coming to the forefront when Wynonna needs support. 

Though I agree with this, it's not very imaginative of the show if that's all they could come up with for him.   I understand there is only so much time and so many lines to go around, they want to focus on what made the show popular and they have underserved the Dolls character for a while.

Reading the news blurbs and social media, this feels permanent, I guess we'll see.   I would rather have seen Wynonna go the depressed/drinking path because of the sum total of everything else that's happened to her finally catching up, rather than killing off Dolls, even if he did go out saving them.

[william0102]

Hate to say it, but does anyone else think Dolls' death is why the show got renewed so fast? Like the network thought for sure they would put Wynonna and Doc together now at some point?

[UNOSEZ]

46 minutes ago, raven said:

I think the show was caught off guard by 1) the positive reception to Wynonna/Doc and 2) the overwhelming support of Nicole/Waverly, so those two pairings will take up a lot of screen time

I wanna believe that.. I wanna give the benefit of  the doubt... But if I as a fan of these genre shows know of  the general backlash/unease from fans when it comes to a black character getting involved with the white star.. How could they not.. I mean it comes up in some way or form everytime... From " no chemistry " to " not the right fit" to the always reliable "other options" or simply "Forced" sometimes folks cut out the BS and go straight to" sjw.. Diversity pushed down our throats.. PC nonsense " I remember reading how it made more sense  for Kensi to be in a throuple with Both and Dyson... Then be with Hale... And that was a Emily Andras show... So how could her and her team really be surprised that fan reaction was more favorful towards Doc/Wynonna or two beautiful talented engaging lesbians... Like come on of course they did  ( not trying to belittle how good/important  it is to have a healthy relatively normal relationship portrayed by two women on screen that isn't just some creepy male fantasy ) 

I think there's too much history of negative/ Apathetic  fan reactions to possible pairings like that of Dolls and Wynonna... For them to be shocked... That's why I feel they caved... They tried and then quickly decided to just do something else.. And for those of us who might have watched regardless,  but definitely made sure to tune in when we saw Dolls as the co-lead... We got the Okie-Doke pulled on us.  

[UNOSEZ]

3 minutes ago, william0102 said:

Hate to say it, but does anyone else think Dolls' death is why the show got renewed so fast? Like the network thought for sure they would put Wynonna and Doc together now at some point?

Possibly... With a more popular pairing going forward in the story and a little less of the "sjw nonsense " that so many genre fans seem to hate nowadays.. Maybe they were able to entice the network.. Because a gay dude of  color who never really seems to get sexual with other men and two smoking hot lesbians are ok.. But an interracial relationship with the star/ hero if the show.. A beautiful white woman... When there's a perfectly good white man right there who's also interested... Naw that's too much... That's pushing an agenda... Smh

[raven]

@UNOSEZ, I do think it is a failing of EA/the writers not to come up with better story lines for Dolls.   We didn't need Wynonna's pregnancy or Waverly not being an Earp, for example, they could have dumped those and fleshed out Dolls more, I already mentioned some ways they could have done that and still preserved the couples that the fans seem to want.  Just like I think that, if Shamier said "enough is enough" - which we'll probably really never know, and it wouldn't surprise me because who wouldn't want to co-lead a show with a devoted fan following, unless you're tired of being set aside -  than I think that killing Dolls wasn't very imaginative.

Quote

Because a gay dude of  color who never really seems to get sexual with other men and two smoking hot lesbians are ok..

I'm not happy with treating Jeremy as a kid WRT to his crush on Doc, "haha, isn't it cute how often he mentions that Doc is manly" It was funny/cute maybe once or twice but doesn't have to happen every episode.  I play reverse the gender and if it were the nerdy girl trying to flirt with an unresponsive Doc would it be regarded as quite so cute?  I'm talking in general, not specifically to you but how it plays on screen.

Edited July 28, 2018 by raven
edited for clarity

[mommalib]

10 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

I wanna believe that.. I wanna give the benefit of  the doubt... But if I as a fan of these genre shows know of  the general backlash/unease from fans when it comes to a black character getting involved with the white star.. How could they not.. I mean it comes up in some way or form everytime... From " no chemistry " to " not the right fit" to the always reliable "other options" or simply "Forced" sometimes folks cut out the BS and go straight to" sjw.. Diversity pushed down our throats.. PC nonsense " I remember reading how it made more sense  for Kensi to be in a throuple with Both and Dyson... Then be with Hale... And that was a Emily Andras show... So how could her and her team really be surprised that fan reaction was more favorful towards Doc/Wynonna or two beautiful talented engaging lesbians... Like come on of course they did  ( not trying to belittle how good/important  it is to have a healthy relatively normal relationship portrayed by two women on screen that isn't just some creepy male fantasy ) 

I think there's too much history of negative/ Apathetic  fan reactions to possible pairings like that of Dolls and Wynonna... For them to be shocked... That's why I feel they caved... They tried and then quickly decided to just do something else.. And for those of us who might have watched regardless,  but definitely made sure to tune in when we saw Dolls as the co-lead... We got the Okie-Doke pulled on us.  

If they were really invested in Dolls and Wynonna they wouldn't have had her with Doc at all. They could have just focused on Wynonna and Dolls relationship but they caved early and introduced the white guy as it normally happens. This is some strait CW network type crap. The did it recently on Life Sentence where they once again  for no good reason shoehorned a white guy in between the white female lead and her black husband and they are about to do it again on Dynasty. I wish these showrunners had more guts.

[UNOSEZ]

6 minutes ago, mommalib said:

This is some strait CW network type crap. The did it recently on Life Sentence where they once again  for no good reason shoehorned a white guy in between the white female lead and her black husband and they are about to do it again on Dynasty. I wish these showrunners had more guts.

And you didn't even mention James Olsen... Cuz man if you thought what happened to Dolls was bad... Mechad Brooks and James got it 100 times worse.. At least Wynonna addressed a little bit what happened.. And it was already kinda open with all 3 of them.. Jimmy got dumped after a quarter of a date and has had abt 4 whole conversations with the star of the show since then... Ur right about guts tho... Why tease that ur gonna try and be bold and push thru the narrow minded ness.. If you cave almost immediately 

 

16 minutes ago, raven said:

not happy with treating Jeremy as a kid WRT to his crush on Doc, "haha, isn't it cute how often he mentions that Doc is manly" It was funny/cute

Again here I think the show chickened out.. It seems from the jump they wanted to make Jeremy gay... but like the least offensive gay to the fanbase.. So they one make him a stereotype (nerdy Indian science geek)  and two make him damn near asexual... We never see him kiss all he does is lust... Which I guess is also a stereotype of the nerdy Indian genius.. Cuz he doesn't ever actually get physical with the objects of his desire... The two lesbians can get it on when and where.. But Jeremy gets weird looks from Doc and I guess iff-screen past romances... Maybe he'll have a picture of  him and an ex (who'll prob be a minority) but now going fwd he'll chase after white boys... Because the former minority Flame/Partner/Mentor trope does not discriminate 

[Dizzychickstar]

Sigh. There was a lot I liked about this episode with Wy talking to “her mother” as a way to survive the crash and rescue Wave, but the death of Dolls overshadowed my enjoyment. As usual, writers in genre TV can think of no other way to write off a character than death. I like sci-fi and other genre television, so when poc are cast, particularly black characters, I hold my breath waiting for them to be killed off and it sucks. It’s tiresome and disappointing. I couldn’t even muster sadness and I am a huge crybaby.

Actors come and go—-why is the writing frustratingly the same?  Dolls could have left to pursue uncovering what he is as working with the gang helped him to work out who he is. He could have given into his dragon side and not recognized the team anymore, abandoning them and providing more angst-fuel if desired. Associates from the defunct(?) Black Badge could have whisked him away Manchurian candidate style to work elsewhere. There are so many other ways for characters to exit. TPTB, please untether the sacrificial black sheep.

Eh, I am mildly interested in Contessa. We’ll see. 

[UNOSEZ]

8 minutes ago, Dizzychickstar said:

Eh, I am mildly interested in Contessa

I was much more interested before she became our replacement black friend/ love  interest that gets in the way of Doc/Wynonna before she sacrifices herself to save doc or some mess.... Smh

[Slovenly Muse]

That was probably the worst "heroic death" sendoff I've ever seen for a semi-lead character. If it had been more of a soft exit ("I have to leave you for some vitally important reason and I don't know if we'll ever see each other again"), it would have been more ok to just tack it on to the end of an episode like that. But a heroic sacrifice? Very poorly done. It wasn't clear at all that that's what they were setting up, and honestly, the fight scene generated more suspense about the fate of Nicole and Peacemaker than Dolls. I would have loved to have seen an episode ABOUT Dolls to see him off, or at least have his death be meaningful to the arc of the show, rather than just taking out some demon who was inconvenient at the moment, like a total afterthought.

Racially, it's also problematic, for the reasons others have stated so well. And what really gets me is how transparent the effort is to quickly replace him with another black character, just to ensure the minority is represented. I mean, you couldn't find anything for him to do pretty much all of last season, and he's a hunky covert agent who is also PART DRAGON! But instead of being able to just write him off and focus on the characters you DO know how to tell stories with, your cast is SO WHITE that you have to bring in a new character, and figure out what the heck to do with them, so you can blatantly fill your quota. This, to me, is the strongest argument (from a purely artistic perspective - there are many more to be made from a social one) for diverse casting from the get-go. I understand that Wynonna was cast to be white (probably because of privilege but let's give the benefit of the doubt and say it's because she's a descendant of white man Wyatt Earp), which means that all of her biological family has to be either white or mixed-race. But what about everyone else? When you start tallying up all the supporting/recurring/guest roles on the show that could have been cast non-white, the list gets long. (Nicole, Nedley, Champ, Bobo, that witch from season 1, Dolls' co-workers, just for a start, not to mention the vast majority of the Revenants... When actors of colour can't even get a job as a disposable bad guy, you're in REAL trouble). When you have a diverse cast from the start, you are free to focus on storytelling, without having to worry about tokenism and optics.

(Yes, I'll even acknowledge that some unnecessary devotion to historical accuracy could lead to casting the Revenants and all other contemporaries of Wyatt Earp as white, but I think that only reinforces the point that the modern day characters, like Nicole, Nedley, and the citizens of Purgatory that we've met, are an ENORMOUS missed opportunity for diversity.)

I'm just saying, I would LOVE to be having a conversation about "that shocking twist" or how much we'll miss Dolls, or whatever else I'm sure Emily Andras wants us to be talking about. Unfortunately, here we are, berating a show we want to love, for getting the simplest things frustratingly wrong.

[UNOSEZ]

5 minutes ago, Slovenly Muse said:

Im just saying, I would LOVE to be having a conversation about "that shocking twist" or how much we'll miss Dolls, or whatever else I'm sure Emily Andras wants us to be talking about. Unfortunately, here we are, berating a show we want to love, for getting the simplest things frustratingly wrong.

Man.. If I hadn't read the preview for the episode.. And knew something was gonna happen.. I wouldn't have really seen it coming.. But because I did and after his pep talks with Doc and Jeremy.. I knew dolls was out... I agree in general that the ancillary cast could've been more diverse.. But I read on his TV guise interview that he had wished the show explored his interracial relationship with Nonna in a town like purgatory... So I think some of that casting was at least initially deliberate... 

 

Also another "heroic minority death" I just remembered... Tripp from Agents of Shield... When we had a totally useless lance hunter who's talents were being a Brit and married to Bobbi.. But no I guess Daisy needed her blk friend to die for it to really hit home.. The blk friend who had sparks with Simmons.. And like Nonna... They already had his replacement ready ( Mack... Who I love) 

[Dizzychickstar]

The WWWest was way more diverse than media would have us believe. But seeing as NYC modern day is often cast as monochromatic...eh. 

[william0102]

53 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

Man.. If I hadn't read the preview for the episode.. And knew something was gonna happen.. I wouldn't have really seen it coming.. But because I did and after his pep talks with Doc and Jeremy.. I knew dolls was out...

 

I hadn't seen any spoilers, but when the vampires showed up and one was black AND knew Doc, I started to get uncomfortable. Then in the next ep Dolls gave that speech about not needing a preview of hellfire to do the right thing, I was like... he dead. I just watched both the episodes back to back, so maybe I had an unfair advantage. But really, whenever the black or lgbt character starts giving out advice and seeming superior to the other characters, you know they're gonna die. Sucks, Dolls was my favorite character. I'm in the minority here, but I extremely dislike Waverly and Doc. Jeremy can get on my last nerve. tbh the fact that they did show so much of Wynonna and Dolls is why I decided to watch.

I had no idea the showrunner did that show with the succubus, but that explains so much lol. 

[mommalib]

2 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

And you didn't even mention James Olsen... Cuz man if you thought what happened to Dolls was bad... Mechad Brooks and James got it 100 times worse.. At least Wynonna addressed a little bit what happened.. And it was already kinda open with all 3 of them.. Jimmy got dumped after a quarter of a date and has had abt 4 whole conversations with the star of the show since then... Ur right about guts tho... Why tease that ur gonna try and be bold and push thru the narrow minded ness.. If you cave almost immediately 

 

Again here I think the show chickened out.. It seems from the jump they wanted to make Jeremy gay... but like the least offensive gay to the fanbase.. So they one make him a stereotype (nerdy Indian science geek)  and two make him damn near asexual... We never see him kiss all he does is lust... Which I guess is also a stereotype of the nerdy Indian genius.. Cuz he doesn't ever actually get physical with the objects of his desire... The two lesbians can get it on when and where.. But Jeremy gets weird looks from Doc and I guess iff-screen past romances... Maybe he'll have a picture of  him and an ex (who'll prob be a minority) but now going fwd he'll chase after white boys... Because the former minority Flame/Partner/Mentor trope does not discriminate 

Oh i'm well aware of what happened to Jimmy. And yes that might have been the worst and most blatant one.

[UNOSEZ]

11 minutes ago, mommalib said:

Oh i'm well aware of what happened to Jimmy. And yes that might have been the worst and most blatant one.

Lol.. Yeah.. When it happens in the future.. Cuz we all know it will.. Ima just say that he got Jimmy olsen'd

[mommalib]

1 minute ago, UNOSEZ said:

Lol.. Yeah.. When it happens in the future.. Cuz we all know it will.. Ima just say that he got Jimmy olsen'd

And people that understand will know exactly what your talking about lol.

[Proclone]

17 hours ago, raven said:

Well I was enjoying this one, with the old school horror feel and the "booby trap" pantomime was fun, right until the end.  I don't know what to think about it and I'm not happy that Dolls is dead.  Of course he could come back (Shamier Anderson says on his Twitter he will address this episode on Monday) but this felt pretty final.

I do wonder if Emily Andras considered the implications that @UNOSEZ speaks about.  I think the show was caught off guard by 1) the positive reception to Wynonna/Doc and 2) the overwhelming support of Nicole/Waverly, so those two pairings will take up a lot of screen time.    Personally I don't think Wynonna is ready for a serious relationship so I was fine with the sort of triangle.  There's plenty of drama in Wynonna's life in a short span of time with finding out she's the heir, fighting revenants, dead sister alive, kills said sister, has baby, gives up baby and on and on.  I also never liked the baby story line, it lends a permanence to Doc/Wynonna that the show didn't need; they could have shot around MS's pregnancy. 

If EA couldn't come up with better storylines for Dolls - and though I liked the idea of the serum and him having some kind of power, I thought the dragon stuff was kind of cheesy - then I don't blame Shamier Anderson for wanting to leave.  There were good scenes between Dolls and Doc, that relationship could have been explored, or possibly mentoring Jeremy.

This is true, not excusing the show, I think it's because again, the popularity of the Nicole/Waverly pairing.  Still, we could have gotten back story on Dolls, his past, what brought him to Black Badge, etc and tied that into the Triangle somehow.

Though I agree with this, it's not very imaginative of the show if that's all they could come up with for him.   I understand there is only so much time and so many lines to go around, they want to focus on what made the show popular and they have underserved the Dolls character for a while.

Reading the news blurbs and social media, this feels permanent, I guess we'll see.   I would rather have seen Wynonna go the depressed/drinking path because of the sum total of everything else that's happened to her finally catching up, rather than killing off Dolls, even if he did go out saving them.

I don't think Andras is tone deaf enough to not understand how killing off Dolls would come across, but on the other hand, if Shamier wanted out, I'm not sure she had another choice.  I think you're right as it was a bunch of different factors that went into the derailment of Dolls character and not just the derailment of his relationship with Wynonna.  Part of it was the pregnancy.  I'll probably be in the minority in that I liked how the show handled it and actually thought it was one of the few times a show incorporated a real-life pregnancy well.  And while they could probably have shot around it since Melanie Scrofano seemed to be one of the lucky few that only gained weight in the midsection while pregnant, I still think it would have been very obvious what they were doing.  I actually liked what the pregnancy and the birth of Alice does for the show.  The entire storyline gave Scofano a chance to really show off her acting chops (seriously the scene where she gives up the baby is one of a handful of times I've cried at a TV show).  It also gives Wynonna a concrete reason to break the curse, so her daughter won't have to be the heir, YMMV.  

I also think a big part of Dolls' derailment is his absence from the first bit of season 2.  Like I said I don't know if the choice was creative or due to circumstance (Shamier has two movies coming out, I wouldn't be surprised if one of them filmed during that time).  Even if he was separated from the rest of the team, glimpses of what he was up to would have helped keep the audience connected to his character.  But his absence just let other characters come to the forefront and Dolls just didn't quite fit back into place as well as he did before the absence.  Now I think a better job could have been done with his character and I was actually looking forward to perhaps he and Nicole doing some investigating into the cult as the first episode seemed to imply they were going to.  It would have been nice to see the evolution of Dolls and Nicole becoming friends and partners after his initial reaction to her was to threaten her with treason if she didn't knock on his office door.  I don't think Dolls' story needed to revolve around his relationship with Wynonna.  And maybe the writers would have found something for Dolls to do this season beyond pine after Wynonna, but if Shamier wanted to leave I can't entirely blame them for writing him off as they did.  Though I do agree that there were problems with the execution of that scene that somewhat blunted the impact of Dolls' death.  I wonder if something happened during filming because they seemed to be missing (at least) the shot of Dolls falling to the ground dead.  And yes, from the things I read, I think his departure is pretty permanent.  And I also think that Wynonna is already depressed and certainly already an alcoholic and Dolls' will only further that, not cause it.

As a side note, while I'm aware of the somewhat rampant racism (not to mention misogyny, and homophobia) that exists in genre TV and movies, I've never really seen anything in the Wynonna Earp fandom.  I'm not saying that it doesn't exist, but I've never seen it.  So I wouldn't say the creators "caved" to pressure from the fandom, they just perceived (as I said either rightly or wrongly) that Doc/Wynonna was more popular.  And I think the popularity of Doc/Wynonna stems from factors that have nothing to do with the race of the actors, but YMMV and I am very aware that my perspective is somewhat skewed as a white woman. 

Edited July 29, 2018 by Proclone
because the word not changes the meaning of a sentance

[UNOSEZ]

26 minutes ago, Proclone said:

And I think the popularity of Doc/Wynonna stems from factors that have nothing to do with the race of the actors, but YMMV and I am very aware that my perspective is somewhat skewed as a white woman. 

And mine is skewed as a multiracial millenial from Brooklyn.. We all gotta come from somewhere.. I agree with ur points.. I do think maybe shamier saw the writing on the wall so to speak and maybe said he didn't want the Jimmy olsen treatment.. So they gave him the Hale from lost girl and now he's at peace. I liked how they handled the pregnancy and I agree that even if they didn't want to pair dolls with Nonna or at least didn't want to feature it while she was pregnant they coulda done other things.. I just never got the feeling that was a priority... To me I used the word cave because as I've said earlier casting Dolls was as much a statement as it was getting the best guy.. And in this particular field of entertainment with its history when dealing with black folks who are close to the stars.. Or god forbid the actual headliners... You gotta be committed and maybe that's not fair or great business.. Because going with hot lesbians and white on white love  affairs has usually worked much better with a large part of this fandom.  Even a cursory look at message boards for the flash or Supergirl... Blk lightning sleepy hollow... Krypton etc... All show the same thing... Unease to straight up hostility twds blk folks in these spaces.. So going up against all that.. You gotta work when the initial looks come in.. And you get the... " oh they seem forced.. Or they don't really have chemistry... Or I think she works better with X... Or any of the myriad of reasons offered.. You gotta work to highlight why ppl should care about a character who doesn't look like them and get them to invest in his story the way I've invested in characters who don't look like me my entire life... And the staff of Nonna Earp didn't do that... Instead they did something worse.. Something some of us are warned about when were young( if you don't do amazing.. They gonna say they tried they gonna get rid of you and its gonna be a while before they let another one of us in) ... And well They gave it a half effort.. The results weren't great.. There was some pushback and they gave up on us. Least that's how im feeling about all this. 

[Jacks-Son]

23 hours ago, Kate213 said:

According to this interview, it was Shamier Anderson's decision to leave, and he got to choose how Dolls exited...

That’s not exactly how the article reads. Andras said:

Emily Andras: It’s an absolutely shocking loss and without a doubt the biggest loss we’ve had on the show and as a community. Number one, creatively it was done because we desperately needed to show that this was a demon unlike any other we have faced before. This was someone who is not playing games. This is the demon Bulshar who cursed the Earp family in the first place. It’s third season and time to up the stakes.

Behind the scenes, I cannot make it clearer that we absolutely love Shamier. He will always be a part of the Earper family, and I expect Earpers to know that and treat him as such. There are absolutely no hard feelings and the truth is Shamier is an extraordinary talent. Hollywood is calling and has been for a couple years now. We’re all very open behind the scenes and Shamier had indicated that as grateful as he was to Wynonna, he was ready to move on. We felt like he gave us an extra year to tell more of Dolls’ story and we felt like this was the best course of action to make everyone happy.

Sorry, but UNOSEZ is right. POC, and LGBTQ characters are discarded like useful plot devices. Hale died saving Kenzie; Roger Cross (6) died saving the crew of the Raza; Tripp, from AOS, turned to stone and crusted away. Watch the latest episode of “Cloak & Dagger” and they spell it out loud and clear, reality is nobody cares if a POC or an LGBTQ person dies. Not unless you’re in that group. Look at the outrage when Lexa (The 100) & Tara (Buffy) died, the furor caused the uprising of “no more Gay deaths” BLM tried to raise concerns, but those in power didn’t give a shit and if you took a knee to protest, even your protest was wrapped into an unpatriotic envelope. You shouldn’t complain, you should shut your mouth, you’re lucky to be in the business. It’s all bullshit, and I don’t give a crap what Emily Andras says, she could have killed off Nicole, but she knew what Hell she would get. So, why not go for Hollywood’s old tried and true formula, “Last to cast, first to die”.

[william0102]

^ The "this demon/foe is so powerful that we had to kill someone" trope, lmao. Yeah, we didn't get the fact that he was powerful cuz he cursed the entire Earp family line. It's right up there with the "{insert black/lgbt character} had to die, so that {blank} can have character growth" cliche. Thanks for pulling those quotes, since I never would have read the link (done that one too many times). He was ready to move on because you weren't writing for him.  That said, I wish Shamier the best. I really enjoyed him on the show. 

p.s. you guys, stop making me sad about Mehcad Brooks. I've loved him since Unnecessary Roughness, but I refuse to watch SG after that first season.

Edited July 29, 2018 by william0102

[UNOSEZ]

@Kate213 @Jacks-Son...  Yeah the article even says he gave them an entire year.. So it was like he saw the way the winds were blowing before season one ended.. Gave them a chance to fix it in season 2 and they didn't even worse and he was like... ( I know how this ends.. I'm out)  and I wanna be clear as pissed off as I am about the situation and Emily Andras' bait and switch chokejob with Dolls' character I still love the show... May need a week or two off so I can binge a few episodes with the new black lady.. Cuz I'm not in the best frame of  mind to see characters I like "lose it" over dolls' death when the show barely let them get close to the man... And I really can't watch This Wynonna all if a sudden realize how much she loved him... As she uses his death to fuel her grief rocket into what I assume are the arms of some handsome white fellas... Don't think this. Can see that just yet... I remember how pissed it made me feel on The 100 when Clarke defended the lil monster that killed her friend and then was sexing that jar of cliche mayo that was Finn

1 minute ago, william0102 said:

p.s. you guys, stop making me sad about Mehcad Brooks. I've loved him since Unnecessary Roughness, but I refuse to watch SG after that first season

I am still holding out hope... That it'll return.. That easy charm the First season had... But its prob a fool errand... But no Mon-el or Winn and they Said catco would be back on the frontlines.. So who else will she talk to

[william0102]

16 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

 Don't think this. Can see that just yet... I remember how pissed it made me feel on The 100 when Clarke defended the lil monster that killed her friend and then was sexing that jar of cliche mayo that was Finn

lmao that is a wonderful description of Finn.

On topic, I just don't think Wynonna Earp is a show I can watch weekly. It's more of a binge show, which sucks though since it's summer and nothing is on really.

Re: SG, idk, I'm sure they'll find someone that's not James. I heard something about them bringing on a trans character this next season, so probably that person, lol. I really hate how these shows have all the pieces to make something great, and they manage to get a couple of cylinders going, but then they blow it all up. I still have hope about WE, but like @UNOSEZ said it's probably best to take some time off.

Edited July 29, 2018 by william0102
added text

[Jacks-Son]

Can someone confirm this for me, didn’t Liz’ Black boyfriend on iZombie die in a house bombing while he was trying to save Major Lilywhite (that’s his name, I’m not making it up as a joke) from coming into the house? Meanwhile Liz was schtupping Chase Graves?

I never thought I would say this, but I think I’m done with Wynonna Earp. I can’t stand Doc as it is, now to see him strut around like a Rooster is more than I could take. I love Wayhaught and Wynonna with her new nappy hair, but I think EA f’ed up with this one. If she wanted to show that this was a big-time demon that the gang was about to face, then why kill off your big gun. Like a Wynonna said, “You brought your lapdog to a dragon fight!” Dolls and Wynonna were the biggest and baddest dogs in this fight, why start it off with half the team. Is Dolls death supposed to rally the troops? Who is Dolls, Willis Reed limping onto the court?

Edited July 29, 2018 by Jacks-Son

[UNOSEZ]

@william0102 and I remember getting into long debates when it happened and saying.. They coulda solved so much criticism if they had just made Finn black... And the responses to that were.. "But Welles was already black" as if two of us in at the same time is some kind of  cosmic imbalance or something 

[UNOSEZ]

3 minutes ago, Jacks-Son said:

Wynonna with her new nappy hair,

I thought I was bugging when I was watching... But dammit if Melanie Scrofano ain't somn special to behold..  As to what happened with Justin(Liv's Bf)...  He survived.. They just never really followed up.. He found out about her smanging on Chase Graves.. He walked off. And she didn't really chase after him.. And I believe he may have helped FG spread the zombie virus.. To be honest I was never sure. She saw him in like the last episode of that season ... But they didn't talk... He was mentioned this season.. But wasn't shown... Speaking if Izombie... They also had a nice minority death... Dawnn Lewis' Mama Leonne.. She hit all the Minority marks.. She showed a bewildered white woman the ropes... She saved a bunch Of sick humans by turning them zombie.. She had a whole network that was mostly shown off screen.  And she was publicly executed  by a white guy and her death inspired the previously uninitiated white woman to take over her network and save some more ppl On-screen ( apparently anybidy can  do it)  even still using her moniker... Geesh typing that out made me gag. 

[william0102]

@UNOSEZ that fandom is, well it has a lot of problems. These are the same people saying Bellyboop is Filipino because the actor is... I don't see them ever understanding the nuance of race, or that Lexa wasn't manipulating Clarke, and thus fulfilling the predatory lesbian cliche *rolls eyes*.

@Jacks-Son I've never seen iZombie, sorry. Can't say that it sounds like I missed anything though.

I accidentally told my mom that Doc died, and her face was horrified, then I corrected myself, and she just kinda shrugged and asked if we had to keep watching the show any longer.

[Jacks-Son]

17 minutes ago, william0102 said:

I've never seen iZombie, sorry. Can't say that it sounds like I missed anything though.

I accidentally told my mom that Doc died, and her face was horrified, then I corrected myself, and she just kinda shrugged and asked if we had to keep watching the show any longer.

Actually, this is entering the off-topic zone and the a mod will step in soon, iZombie is hilarious, you should give it a lookie, the lead is a zombie assistant medical examiner who eats the brains of her morgue cases and uses their memories to help a Black detective solve cases. After she has eaten the brains, she takes on the affectations of the deceased and she does a great job of role-playing.

@UNOSEZ Melanie Scrofano has always had nappy hair. I think she just stopped hot combing it.

Edited July 29, 2018 by Jacks-Son

[william0102]

That does sound interesting, I might check it out during my break from WE.

I thought they had just tried to crimp Melanie Scrofano's hair, because of the "Euro-trash" vampires, lol. That dress they had her in reminded me of 80s Madonna. Thank you for reminding me of her line about them keeping the stripper bus, that was hilarious.

[Jacks-Son]

YouTube video of Melanie Scrofano Comic-Con Interview

Ive seen other interviews of her without her hairstylist hair.

[mommalib]

It seems that Shamier Anderson took the initiative and decided to leave and I say good for him. I'm glad he took his destiny into his own hands and didn't allow them to play him. And I love that parting shot Dolls gave Doc about fighting for the right side.

Edited July 29, 2018 by mommalib

[UNOSEZ]

3 hours ago, mommalib said:

It seems that Shamier Anderson took the initiative and decided to leave and I say good for him. I'm glad he took his destiny into his own hands and didn't allow them to play him. And I love that parting shot Dolls gave Doc about fighting for the right side.

In the end... Doc & Dolls  was the OTP... 

[Jacks-Son]

7 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

n the end... Doc & Dolls  was the OTP..

Seriously??  It was a Bromance at most, simple respect from two men in love with the same woman and wanting the other to do the right thing. Doc has done some shady shit and is trying to live by Dolls standards.  OTP?? 

[UNOSEZ]

11 minutes ago, Jacks-Son said:

Seriously??  It was a Bromance at most, simple respect from two men in love with the same woman and wanting the other to do the right thing. Doc has done some shady shit and is trying to live by Dolls standards.  OTP?? 

Well I've never really liked Doc and Nonna... Waverly is still in her first actual lesbian relationship and I cant buy it being all she'll ever want or need.. Plus we don't really know shit about Nicole cept she had a wife... The show never really gave us Nonna and Dolls so... Yeah maybe OTP is over the top... But D&D was my fav.. As it was actually an arc with some growth... 

[Jacks-Son]

19 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

The show never really gave us Nonna and Dolls so

While they never really gave us an actual scene with Wynona and Dolls getting busy, there must have been plenty going on because we all caught on that the two had a thing.  Eye sex?  Perhaps there were copious amounts of that.  Think about it; If Doc and Wynonna had sex, it was certainly the most unmemorable sex on the show.  We all remember WayHaught going at it, but how many of us remember Doc & Wyn.  Hell, half the time Wynonna doesn't even remember.   Last scene, just before Dolls blasts the lapdog with his full Dragon fire, he stares into Wynonna's eyes, and she into his. He was saying goodbye. IF EA could give us a simple poignant moment like that, why couldn't she give the Dolls/Wynonna fans more.  Who were the Doc/Wynonna fans?  Not many here.  S'funny, go to FanForum.com's Wynonna Earp Forum and there's barely any mention of Doll's Death.  That's why I come here, real fans, real emotions.

[UNOSEZ]

44 minutes ago, Jacks-Son said:

Who were the Doc/Wynonna fans?  

They're the ppl who post on ignoring.. Or reddit... They're the ones freaking out that starfire is played by Anna Dion and flooding msg boards because the new She-ra isn't sexy enuff.. They're the ones on Twitter congratulating cowboys qb Dakota Prescott for saying he wouldn't kneel for the anthem... They're the people who think the act of simply questioning their privilege is akin to persecution... So while they may not have been specifically doc/nonna fans they were most definitely anti Dolls /Nonna... So by default 

[Jacks-Son]

17 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

They're the ppl who post on ignoring.. Or reddit... They're the ones freaking out that starfire is played by Anna Dion and flooding msg boards because the new She-ra isn't sexy enuff.. They're the ones on Twitter congratulating cowboys qb Dakota Prescott for saying he wouldn't kneel for the anthem... They're the people who think the act of simply questioning their privilege is akin to persecution... So while they may not have been specifically doc/nonna fans they were most definitely anti Dolls /Nonna... So by default 

Most of this post is Greek to me.  Never heard of most of these people or web sites.  I try to ignore racist fools who have no power.  It's the racist fools who have power that terrify me, especially the ones with guns. I've heard of Reddit.  And if Prescott said what he said, than he's an ignorant fool who drank the Kool-Aide racists were pouring.  Sounds like the same type of person that thinks school shootings are part of the system getting rid of the chaff.  I sure hope he never said anything like that to the linemen who have his back.

[UNOSEZ]

@Jacks-Son while I generally just breeze by the Internet racists I was in a masochistic mood this weekend... So I was all over the place 

[mommalib]

1 hour ago, UNOSEZ said:

They're the ppl who post on ignoring.. Or reddit... They're the ones freaking out that starfire is played by Anna Dion and flooding msg boards because the new She-ra isn't sexy enuff.. They're the ones on Twitter congratulating cowboys qb Dakota Prescott for saying he wouldn't kneel for the anthem... They're the people who think the act of simply questioning their privilege is akin to persecution... So while they may not have been specifically doc/nonna fans they were most definitely anti Dolls /Nonna... So by default 

Pure racism and these are the fans that these show runners be caving to and that burns me. Just because they are loud doesn't mean they are the majority, actually they usually aren't.

[tennisgurl]

Wow, that was...sudden. I mean, Dolls has been a major character since the beginning, and then he just kind of died, and thats that. It wasn't even during a season opener or closer, it was the second episode of a season! Which, I guess does make it more surprising, but, do we want that kind of surprise? I definitely raise an eyebrow to having one of the few notable surviving POC characters killed off, but other, smarter people have already debated on that one here, so I will just focus on the actual writing of this, from a purely story perspective. 

Dolls has been a pretty underused character in general, which sucks because he has a lot of potential. I get that the show has a decent sized cast and a LOT of stuff going on, but they could have done better with him. It was like they brought him in to be a love interest and authority figure, but then decided they didnt want him in that capacity, and had no idea what to do with him. I think they COULD have come up with some stuff, but it just never happened. I can see why the actor apparently decided to leave (I think anyway. Some of his interviews are a little vague) and try some new jobs, but I wish they didnt kill him off. Of course, thats something I always say about shows that kill off characters when an actor wants to leave. If it doesn't seem like the natural end for the character, then why kill them off? Just have them leave or get separated, and leave the door open for them to come back later, or at least give them a cameo later or something? I dont mean you can never kill someone off, especially on an action adventure show, but it doesn't always have to be the way to go. And, well, the optics of this arent great. Especially as it looks like a classic "kill off a character to show that the new baddie means business" trope, that I always find annoying and pointless to the story. Really, what does Dolls dying actually do for the plot? We know the new bad guy is bad. Wynonna is already in a bad place with her giving up her kid and her family drama, and those are the only things him dying really does for the plot, so I dont know. This is how you kill a red shirt who had no lines, not a main character. 

The rest of the episode was actually pretty good. The mountain man cannibal revenant was sufficiently creepy, and we had some good character stuff all around, but its hard to really pay attention to all of that when you have this ending. 

[UNOSEZ]

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I definitely raise an eyebrow to having one of the few notable surviving POC characters killed off, but other, smarter people have already debated on that one here,

I'm sure we all appreciate the compliment... But discourse is how we grow and you've had great insights on this an other shows... So if you got somn in ya.. be it question or statement.. I say let it rip... I'm always looking for to ppl's opinions

[Jacks-Son]

Perhaps another thread should be created for this discussion, so as to allow others who are eager to discuss the episode and some of the other aspects of it are free to do so.  For instance, what did you guys think of Mama?  She's played by Megan Follows, who played Catherine de Medici on "Reign". she's an excellent actress and a good pickup by them.  Why was she there in spirit?

@UNOSEZ & @mommalib yes, I'm trying to change the subject in this thread. Go ahead, call me a wimp.

[UNOSEZ]

22 minutes ago, Jacks-Son said:

Perhaps another thread should be created for this discussion, so as to allow others who are eager to discuss the episode and some of the other aspects of it are free to do so.  For instance, what did you guys think of Mama?  She's played by Megan Follows, who played Catherine de Medici on "Reign". she's an excellent actress and a good pickup by them.  Why was she there in spirit?

@UNOSEZ & @mommalib yes, I'm trying to change the subject in this thread. Go ahead, call me a wimp.

Lol... Megan as always was great... I think she a hell of an addition... She was my 2nd fav character on reign... After Bash of course... I guess as she was on her way to see Mama... She was on Nonnas mind.. And she needed the lessons she had learned at her mothers side to survive the climb and save waverly... 

Or... 

Some kind of creepy astral projection. As she somehow knew her girl was in danger.. Spirit mama already said Nonna was all hers.. Maybe as she's the heir they have a connection 

[Jacks-Son]

22 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

She was my 2nd fav character on reign... After Bash of course

Nobody ever likes Mary.  :=( Catherine was certainly the best of the Medici, the King was a jerk, Claude was a spoiled brat and Charles, well, Charles, there was a hell of a lot wrong with that boy.  I liked Lola after Mary.  Hated Narcisse because he played Lord Rahl.  Didn't like Gideon or Lord Darnley

Anyway, I wish the show (Wynonna Earp) would explore the family more.  Too much is left vague.  I don't know if that's because the writers lack the creativity to fill out the family history or not.  Willa was there and then she was not.  Would like to have known her more.  Same with Rosita.  Now, they've overcompensated with Jeremy, who I don't give a crap about.  Sorry, Jeremy, you're a one-dimensional prop.

[tennisgurl]

1 hour ago, UNOSEZ said:

I'm always looking for to ppl's opinions

Well, I think at lot of the problem is that Dolls dying really seems to serve no purpose, and that the whole "black guy dies first" trope has been around for basically ever, so when you look at it like that, it comes across as them killing the black character first just to prove the situation is dangerous, like he is the first guy to die in an 80s slasher movie, right before the girl who talks about having sex in her first scene. It makes him look dispensable, and while I dont mean to make broad sweeping statements, it does have a whiff of "I dont know how to write POC so now they gotta die". Except its worse, because he has been a main character since the start of the show, and he definitely deserves better. If this felt like an organic end to his character arc, I think there would still be some unfortunate implications, but I think it would come across better. Not that I think Emily and the people behind the show are all a pack of racists or anything. I think this is just a classic case of a (non POC) show runner who has a story lined out in her head, with the characters she is most interested in the lead (which I dont think includes Dolls), and just does stuff, without thinking of how that looks, or the greater implications, or what might be unconscious. That being said, a show that has pretty clearly been appealing to the younger, Woke crowd, should really know better. I mean, everyone should know better, but especially a show runner, in an era where anyone can see what fans are saying, and has billions of pieces of media studies about minorities in the media. I dont think this is the WORST thing I've seen, but its not great. And it mainly sucks to me because I liked Dolls, and think the story is better with him in it. Or at least with him alive, even if he is off the show. 

1 hour ago, Jacks-Son said:

For instance, what did you guys think of Mama?

The clan Earp do like their drama, dont they? I like Mama, and think her interactions will be interesting, when she inevitably gets out of jail. I do want to know if her tough love pep talks were the result of Wynonna seeing stuff, or she has some kind of psychic powers. With this show, its hard to tell. Also, poor Waverley really is the least favorite in the Earp family, isnt she? Her dad preferred Willa, Willa hated Waverly, and Mama preferred Wynonna because "Waverly had everyone". Maybe it has something to do with her mysterious heritage we still dont know about? I guess it makes sense that the supposed "normal" member of the family of weirdos is the one who is beloved in the town of supposed normies, but is the outcast of the family of outcasts? Still, it sucks for Waverley. It seems like the only member of the family who gives a shit about her is Wynonna. Luckily she gives a LOT of shits about her. 

[UNOSEZ]

5 minutes ago, Jacks-Son said:

Willa was there and then she was not.  Would like to have known her more.  Same with Rosita.

Hated Willa the nanosecond we met her... Rosita I always felt sorry for... And they coulda dine more with her.. But then they burned that bridge with her and that baby mess.. Kinda hard to come back from that... As for Jeremy... Yeah.. Bit of a prop/ stereotype..  The show has only really developed 3 ppl.. Doc.. Nonna... Waverly... Well no 4.... Bobo... Seems like were gonna get more on Nicole so... Hmmm( don't worry won't derail the tread  with my thoughts... Lol) 

[Jacks-Son]

24 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

Hated Willa the nanosecond we met her.

I think that's because Willa came across as rather nefarious and sometimes threatening to her baby sister.  I mean who threatens Waverly, unless you're  a skeez like Tucker.  She always looked like she had something else going on.  Rosita never gave me that vibe, that's why her being an undeserving demon sucked and I was sorry to see her go. (Well, at least one of the reasons)

 

43 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Well, I think at lot of the problem is that Dolls dying really seems to serve no purpose, and that the whole "black guy dies first" trope has been around for basically ever, so when you look at it like that, it comes across as them killing the black character first just to prove the situation is dangerous, like he is the first guy to die in an 80s slasher movie, right before the girl who talks about having sex in her first scene. It makes him look dispensable, and while I dont mean to make broad sweeping statements, it does have a whiff of "I dont know how to write POC so now they gotta die". 

Couldn't have said it better.  You have a good grasp of why this situation and episode sucked. I don't think EA and crew are racists, but they're batting 2 for 2 with ignominious deaths for no apparent reason (Hale & Dolls).  And that whole, "The BIG BAD IS HERE" excuse is very lame and patronizing.

 

43 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

Hmmm( don't worry won't derail the tread  with my thoughts... Lol

Derailing threads is my bad habit.  Every thread I get enthusiastically involved in brings the forum Po-Po down on me and threads get the dreaded yellow police tape across it.  That's why I tried to redirect the thread.

[Ivylady]

I was talking about this show with a friend, and one of the things I wanted them to develop this season was Dolls and his relationship with everyone, but especially Doc. I thought giving them a real friendship outside of Wynonna (because she is a mess at best) would have been helpful to move the story forward. 

 

Now, I see that won't happen. The question is do I continue to watch. I generally tend to cut off shows when they pull the predictable "magical/noble negro" trope.  Someone else said WE is a binge show, and I think they're right. I just don't know if it's worth it anymore. 

[FurryFury]

I didn't expect Dolls dying, but I don't have a problem with it. He kinda stopped being important to the show somewhere in s2, so I see it as dropping unnecessary baggage, from the storytelling point. And I always preferred Doc/Wynonna anyway (I guess I'll be labeled a racist now?)