S08.E02: Bitch Perfect

[still hoping]

Thanks yes I sort of remember that....maybe they could wear flippers for the glamour and runway and take them out to sing or for the "acting"/comedy competitions?

I still think they should be "ready" for this. Can't sew...can't walk in heels...hello LOL

[Haberdasher]

This is my favorite group challenge, and possibly my favorite overall challenge in the show's history. Really fun to watch, and it's nice to see that no one really fell on their face- literally or figuratively. Dax was the performer I thought was weakest, mostly because she seemed to be dancing soft. I'm not sure what the proper term for it would be, but there was just no power there.

 

This is the first season where I'd be sad to see any of the remaining queens leave this early on. There's no one that I outright dislike this time around.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Haberdasher

[Zuleikha]

I give a pass on bad teeth because that's much less of an issue for stage shows than it is for TV, and there is very little money to be made in drag performances at the local level. So there's no reason for queens to scrape up money for it prior to being accepted on the show, and the timeline between acceptance and start of filming is pretty short for raising money for dental work. 

[RCharter]

I give a pass on bad teeth because that's much less of an issue for stage shows than it is for TV, and there is very little money to be made in drag performances at the local level. So there's no reason for queens to scrape up money for it prior to being accepted on the show, and the timeline between acceptance and start of filming is pretty short for raising money for dental work. 

For me, the teeth aren't particularly a matter of assigning fault.  I totally, completely understand and agree with your point.  It is a lot of money to fix messed up teeth, and someone doing Vegas shows like Derrick may have that money, but someone like Chi Chi may not.  The only problem for me is that it can sometimes distract from the artistry because some of the dental issues are pretty glaring.  

 

I'm not sure how much flippers are, but I think it would be a great compromise to wear flippers for the runway or maybe for a lip sync performance (like bitch perfect) that doesn't require much speaking if its hard to speak in the flippers.

[Cosmic Muffin]

Almost every season I think it would be nice for some of the challenge prizes to be some free dental work, but there is just no kind or tasteful way to do that. Which is a shame.

[Dirtybubble]

 

The only problem for me is that it can sometimes distract from the artistry because some of the dental issues are pretty glaring.

 

Is that the case this season?  I personally haven't noticed anyone with God awful teeth.  True a lot of the girls don't have perfectly straight, fridge white teeth but no one is walking around buck tooth, black rotted teeth, or simply missing teeth from what I've seen so I don't really see the big deal. 

 

Cosmetic dental work is major $$$ that isn't covered under insurance so between the expensive wigs, outfits, props, and whatever else may be needed I can see why a lot can't afford it.

 

As far as can't sew goes--from what I remember Jinx couldn't sew either and she won.  Shangela and Adore were notorious for not sewing and both are successful.  The thing is as long as you can hot glue really well ala Joslyn Fox I think you can get away with it a bit.  There are really only 2 challenges were sewing is necessary.  Naysha couldn't construct a dress properly much less sew.  And as blah as her dress was it leads me to believe she had little imagination to create an outfit.  That's what really did her in, not just simply not sewing. 

 

Plus it seems like a cliche' on this show--there has to be someone who doesn't know how to sew.  HAS TO BE!  Just like there has to be a queen with a super sad backstory.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Dirtybubble

[RCharter]

^^Chi Chi has distracting teeth, and so does Kim Chi.  Maybe its because they are otherwise so beautiful and amazing that the imperfect teeth are distracting.  With both, its not a matter of rotting teeth, just their placement or lack of being there.  I think Robbie also has some unfortunate teeth, but it doesn't take away as much, maybe because I don't think her drag is as amazing.

Almost every season I think it would be nice for some of the challenge prizes to be some free dental work, but there is just no kind or tasteful way to do that. Which is a shame.

I wish they would just do it.  At the very least if a queen didn't need it, she probably knows someone she could donate it to that could use it.  Because it is so expensive.

[Dirtybubble]

^^Chi Chi has distracting teeth, and so does Kim Chi.  Maybe its because they are otherwise so beautiful and amazing that the imperfect teeth are distracting.  With both, its not a matter of rotting teeth, just their placement or lack of being there.  I think Robbie also has some unfortunate teeth, but it doesn't take away as much, maybe because I don't think her drag is as amazing.

 

 

Really?  Wow I hadn't noticed.  I guess I'm so in love with B.O.B. and Thorgy I see nothing else =)

[RCharter]

Really?  Wow I hadn't noticed.  I guess I'm so in love with B.O.B. and Thorgy I see nothing else =)

LOL...or I'm just a nit-picky bitch, who knows :)

[AntManBee]

I am amazed there is so much chatter about queen's teeth this year.  If you find it to be a distraction, don't ever watch season 4... then Sharon, PhiPhi, Latrice, and Jiggly all had dental imperfections, but that was hardly what made them lovable (or unlovable, in PhiPhi's case). 

 

Don't ever watch Paris is Burning either.   You might become too distracted by teeth to appreciate why lower-income, socially marginalized, people gravitate towards drag and ball scene.

 

I can't help but worry that this is a side effect of Ru's casting for the series last season.  The queens were so much more look influenced that their teeth were hardly an issue.  In just the 2nd episode we already have a consensus that the casting is much better this year, with people, like myself, already worried about who will go home next, since I sort of love them all.  There is no obvious cannon fodder.  That some of them have less than perfect teeth does not distract from the appreciation of their talents.  That we expect drag queens to have perfect teeth, the loving/doting/wealthy families that nurtured them growing up, or the current income to afford them is disappointing.  I think it reveals more about he audience and somewhat classist attitudes, rather than the actual queens themselves.

 

Anyways, I find ChiChi's and Kim Chi's dental imperfections kind of endearing. 

[zulualpha]

My problem with the lip sync was it lacked so much joy in performance.  Normally this part of the show is extra delightful, and Ru's smiling away while watching the queens turn it out, but this one .... meh.  I turned to Mr. Me and said "this is awful," and although I wasn't expecting a double elimination, I definitely thought it was a poor showing.  And (while I totally think one should know one's history) you don't have to know the history to perform the heck out of a song.

 

They were marking, rather than performing.

Rai posted:I feel if Sharon Needles can turn it out for "It's Raining Men," then queens like Dax and Laila should be able to get into the other gay national anthem

 

To your point, Sharon and Phi Phi lip synching to It's Raining Men.  So good.  Two totally different styles but both equally high energy and enjoyable.  Also notice how much fun Ru was having.

Edited March 21, 2016 by zulualpha

[RCharter]

I am amazed there is so much chatter about queen's teeth this year.  If you find it to be a distraction, don't ever watch season 4... then Sharon, PhiPhi, Latrice, and Jiggly all had dental imperfections, but that was hardly what made them lovable (or unlovable, in PhiPhi's case). 

 

Don't ever watch Paris is Burning either.   You might become too distracted by teeth to appreciate why lower-income, socially marginalized, people gravitate towards drag and ball scene.

 

I can't help but worry that this is a side effect of Ru's casting for the series last season.  The queens were so much more look influenced that their teeth were hardly an issue.  In just the 2nd episode we already have a consensus that the casting is much better this year, with people, like myself, already worried about who will go home next, since I sort of love them all.  There is no obvious cannon fodder.  That some of them have less than perfect teeth does not distract from the appreciation of their talents.  That we expect drag queens to have perfect teeth, the loving/doting/wealthy families that nurtured them growing up, or the current income to afford them is disappointing.  I think it reveals more about he audience and somewhat classist attitudes, rather than the actual queens themselves.

 

Anyways, I find ChiChi's and Kim Chi's dental imperfections kind of endearing. 

I loved Latrice the most, but for me, her drag was all about heart, and I loved her as a queen and as a person.  Her imperfections made her more lovable to me, even in her season I realized that the artistry wasn't her strong suit.  I still wanted her to win, because she excelled at everything else, in my eyes.  And I still will wish that Ru is calling up Latrice on the phone to return to competition.

 

Thanks for the info on Paris is Burning, I had started to watch it, but never finished.  Now I'll know better, because the one way to get people to better understand drag culture is to dissuade them from watching a movie about drag culture because they made a passing comment about teeth.  Especially since, as you have mentioned, the movie is about more than sheer artistry.  I mean, I would hazard to say that I would want a person to watch such a movie in spite of bad teeth so that they could gain a deeper understanding of drag.  However, I will take your suggestion to heart, and I thank you for it no matter how silly it may seem to try to discourage anyone from watching a film that will give a person a more balanced view of a little understood culture.

 

I also think calling someone classist for pointing out the bad teeth that some of the queens have is not really fair or reasonable.  Its like calling someone classist because they think the real Starry Night by Van Gogh is better than the one I painted at the local Wine n' Canvas in an hour while sipping on a diet coke.  Yes, my picture is pretty as well, but it also has some flaws in it.  If someone is presenting an art form based on a look, than it hardly seems classist to judge the look, in its entirety.  Including teeth.  Its like looking at Miss America contestants and being called classist when you point out that one of them has a face full of acne.

Edited March 21, 2016 by RCharter

[AntManBee]

I loved Latrice the most, but for me, her drag was all about heart, and I loved her as a queen and as a person.  Her imperfections made her more lovable to me, even in her season I realized that the artistry wasn't her strong suit.  I still wanted her to win, because she excelled at everything else, in my eyes.  And I still will wish that Ru is calling up Latrice on the phone to return to competition.

 

Thanks for the info on Paris is Burning, I had started to watch it, but never finished.  Now I'll know better, because the one way to get people to better understand drag culture is to dissuade them from watching a movie about drag culture because they made a passing comment about teeth.  Especially since, as you have mentioned, the movie is about more than sheer artistry.  I mean, I would hazard to say that I would want a person to watch such a movie in spite of bad teeth so that they could gain a deeper understanding of drag.  However, I will take your suggestion to heart, and I thank you for it no matter how silly it may seem to try to discourage anyone from watching a film that will give a person a more balanced view of a little understood culture.

 

I also think calling someone classist for pointing out the bad teeth that some of the queens have is not really fair or reasonable.  Its like calling someone classist because they think the real Starry Night by Van Gogh is better than the one I painted at the local Wine n' Canvas in an hour while sipping on a diet coke.  Yes, my picture is pretty as well, but it also has some flaws in it.  If someone is presenting an art form based on a look, than it hardly seems classist to judge the look, in its entirety.  Including teeth.  Its like looking at Miss America contestants and being called classist when you point out that one of them has a face full of acne.

 

 

Wow, we are all over the place here. 

 

If you thought I was genuinely suggesting you do not watch Paris is Burning, then my sarcasm has failed us both.  You should watch Paris is Burning.  Everyone who posts on this forum, and sees fit to comment on drag queens, should watch it.   Although, its undeniable when watching it that many of the interviewees/participants have imperfect teeth.  Is it distracting?  Maybe, if you place sole value of drag on the look.   I would not even say Paris is Burning is about sheer artistry, but more about experience, illusion, and fantasy.   Especially considering that many of the queens featured in that film had struggles with family acceptance and poverty, compounded by the fact that they are continuously confronted by affluent, straight, white culture.  A culture that always seems out of grasp.

 

My statement on classism is not a condemnation that you, yourself, are classist.  But rather that the nit-picking on aesthetics of teeth implies that you hold all these queens to a standard that is only achievable by the lucky or affluent.  You cannot really compare Derrick Barry, whose drag is all about emulating a wealthy, white, entertainer, with someone like ChiChi, whose drag (from my perception) is much more about escaping her cloistered, rough, upbringing.   The art-form of drag is based on look, yes, but its also based on attitude, creativity, performance, social and cultural critique, parody, gender roles, aspiration, and character creation.  So to claim that you cannot see any of these other attributes in a drag performance because the teeth are not perfect enough is to pigeon hole a queen because of her background, upbringing, or wealth.  It's a lot easier to make/buy a fancy dress, change up make up or wigs, or nail down a dance routine than it is to fix dental work.  Thus, the focus on teeth, and expecting all queens to come into the competition with HD ready smiles is a bit classist.

 

That's not to say it cannot be done, as shown by Tyra Sanchez and Sharon Needles, who both had their teeth fixed after winning large sums of money. 

Edited March 21, 2016 by AntManBee

[BarneySays]

Personally, I don't buy into the idea that "I Will Survive" is a gay anthem and thus all drag queens have to be able to slay it. It's a disco song--not everyone's going to connect to that.

I think it is probably the most widely lipsynched number of all.  Have you never been to a wedding?  As a performer, you have to put it across whether you connect to the song or not.  You have to find a connection or create a connection.  At least half of the songs tey lipsynch to on this show are third-rate pop princess songs that no self-respecting drag queen would ever lipsynch to.  The job is to perform- regardless of the musical selection.  I would argue I Will Survive is both easy and hard to perform:  easy because everyone knows it and it performs itself; it is hard, for the same reason- it's hard to do something special with it (taking off one's hideous dress does not qualify). 

[RCharter]

Wow, we are all over the place here. 

 

If you thought I was genuinely suggesting you do not watch Paris is Burning, then my sarcasm has failed us both.  You should watch Paris is Burning.  Everyone who posts on this forum, and sees fit to comment on drag queens, should watch it.   Although, its undeniable when watching it that many of the interviewees/participants have imperfect teeth.  Is it distracting?  Maybe, if you place sole value of drag on the look.   I would not even say Paris is Burning is about sheer artistry, but more about experience, illusion, and fantasy.   Especially considering that many of the queens featured in that film had struggles with family acceptance and poverty, compounded by the fact that they are continuously confronted by affluent, straight, white culture.  A culture that always seems out of grasp.

 

My statement on classism is not a condemnation that you, yourself, are classist.  But rather that the nit-picking on aesthetics of teeth implies that you hold all these queens to a standard that is only achievable by the lucky or affluent.  You cannot really compare Derrick Barry, whose drag is all about emulating a wealthy, white, entertainer, with someone like ChiChi, whose drag (from my perception) is much more about escaping her cloistered, rough, upbringing.   The art-form of drag is based on look, yes, but its also based on attitude, creativity, performance, social and cultural critique, parody, gender roles, aspiration, and character creation.  So to claim that you cannot see any of these other attributes in a drag performance because the teeth are not perfect enough is to pigeon hole a queen because of her background, upbringing, or wealth.  It's a lot easier to make/buy a fancy dress, change up make up or wigs, or nail down a dance routine than it is to fix dental work.  Thus, the focus on teeth, and expecting all queens to come into the competition with HD ready smiles is a bit classist.

 

That's not to say it cannot be done, as shown by Tyra Sanchez and Sharon Needles, who both had their teeth fixed after winning large sums of money. 

Your sarcasm did miss the mark, because I could not envision someone being petty, mean and sarcastic in response to someone simply expressing an opinion that was in no way a personal dig at them.  It seems silly to me to engage in personal digs when someone hasn't thrown a personal barb at you.  Therefore, I figured I must have misunderstood your sarcasm and that you were being serious about not watching Paris is Burning.  And for my money, anyone can watch a show and comment on it, and give their own opinion.  There isn't any required list of books to read or movies to watch.  But again, if you want to limit the number of people that watch RPDR or comment on the show when the show already has a limited audience/viewership that seems a little silly, but its your prerogative.  I personally would encourage anyone to watch the show, as a way to understand and appreciate drag and form their own opinions.

 

There is nothing classist at all in pointing out that someone's teeth distracts you from their art, especially when that art form is visual.  I was watching the BBC adaptation of a book where the main character was supposed to be beautiful and in her 20's.  The actress playing the role was not attractive and appeared to be in her 40's.  It was distracting, and not because I'm classist but because I read a book by Jane Austen about a beautiful woman in her 20's and so watching someone remarkably different was distracting to me.

 

The drag that Chi Chi does is about creating a look....to me, as is the drag that Kim does.  At least part of their drag is about creating a look, and therefore the messed up teeth distract me from their artistry.  Because the artistry they are looking to create does not comport with messed up teeth.  I wouldn't call them bad queens, or bad people for having messed up teeth, but it does distract me from the look they are trying to create.

 

Nor did I EVER claim that I couldn't see anything besides their teeth.  I said that their teeth were distracting....which they are.  To deny the effect of what you see in order to "not pigeon hole" someone seems like a strange proposition to me for someone who is creating a look.  And the idea that I now have to change what my eyes see based on the economic background of a queen seems equally odd.  I see what I see, and I try to judge each queen equally, making yourself see something different than what you see based on who has more money is not something I would aspire to do.

[Zuleikha]

As a performer, you have to put it across whether you connect to the song or not.  You have to find a connection or create a connection.

Yes, that is true. But most performers can't do that for every single song, especially in a setting that's practically improv. Literally all I'm saying is that I think it makes more sense to judge Laila McQueen on the basis of this or this rather than her "I Will Survive." (I personally do not love Dax as a performer based on her videos, but IMHO Dax should be judged on that basis as well or maybe for her cosplay) Also, just because we may have felt awesome dancing around or lipsynching to "I Will Survive" at a wedding/on the dance floor--which yes, I have definitely done--does not mean we would have looked great on stage in a performance setting. 

 

At least half of the songs tey lipsynch to on this show are third-rate pop princess songs that no self-respecting drag queen would ever lipsynch to.

Which is probably why so many of these professional lip synchers do such a bad job on the LSFYL. 

[belligerent]

 

There is nothing classist at all in pointing out that someone's teeth distracts you from their art, especially when that art form is visual.

 

There is, though, because it assumes that somebody has ever been in a position to have the money to be able to afford nice, straight teeth or nice-looking fake teeth.

 

My parents couldn't afford to get me braces, for example, so while I have fairly healthy teeth due to lucky genetics, they're not super straight. They were "good enough" so nothing was done about them; if I had some kind of hellish crossbite that hindered me from eating, though, I'm sure it would have been more of a priority. I don't know what level of affluence Chi Chi or Kim Chi's families had, but braces are expensive and straight teeth are purely an aesthetic standard and not really a necessity. I could get braces now as an adult, I guess, but bills come first.

 

Like, you can say it's distracting and that's a perfectly valid opinion, but it is a somewhat classist statement to essentially say that you don't care if somebody's broke, they better fix their teeth if they don't want you reading them for it. It's not pointing out someone's jacked-up teeth that's the issue....it's expecting them to spend their money on your priorities, which may not be within their affluence range, to please you. Unless you offered to pay for them to fix their teeth and they refused, they're not really obligated to spend large sums of money on what you think they should be spending it on.

 

If it really bothers you that much, start a nonprofit gofundme or something like, I dunno, Crowns for Queens.

[RCharter]

There is, though, because it assumes that somebody has ever been in a position to have the money to be able to afford nice, straight teeth or nice-looking fake teeth.

 

My parents couldn't afford to get me braces, for example, so while I have fairly healthy teeth due to lucky genetics, they're not super straight. They were "good enough" so nothing was done about them; if I had some kind of hellish crossbite that hindered me from eating, though, I'm sure it would have been more of a priority. I don't know what level of affluence Chi Chi or Kim Chi's families had, but braces are expensive and straight teeth are purely an aesthetic standard and not really a necessity. I could get braces now as an adult, I guess, but bills come first.

 

Like, you can say it's distracting and that's a perfectly valid opinion, but it is a somewhat classist statement to essentially say that you don't care if somebody's broke, they better fix their teeth if they don't want you reading them for it. It's not pointing out someone's jacked-up teeth that's the issue....it's expecting them to spend their money on your priorities, which may not be within their affluence range, to please you. Unless you offered to pay for them to fix their teeth and they refused, they're not really obligated to spend large sums of money on what you think they should be spending it on.

 

If it really bothers you that much, start a nonprofit gofundme or something like, I dunno, Crowns for Queens.

It doesn't assume any of that, and I have no idea why people would read more into it than exactly what it is.  Saying that the teeth distract me means only that.  Its not a personal judgment of the queen in any way, nor does saying that the teeth are distracting say that I assume that they had the money to get dental work done.    

 

Because drag is about creating a look, there is something to be said for the purely aesthetic.  The makeup is aesthetic, the shoes, the hair, the padding...all aesthetic.  If you are creating a look than people are going to look at total package, and teeth are a part of that.

 

I never said that a queen better fix their teeth, but if you're going to be judged on a total look thats how you're going to be judged.  No one is going to show up at the Miss America pageant and say "well, this girl has some messed up teeth, but I think she was poor so we should just give her some extra points."  The same way there are queens that will read a broke queen about a busted looking dress.  How is it not classist to read a queen for other concessions she may have to make due to lack of income (cheap outfits, questionable wigs), but its not okay to point out that bad teeth may be distracting?  

 

Yes, if I'm going to form an opinion about a queen its going to be based on what I like or don't like.  The same way, another queen might shade someone for having a cheap ass dress.  No one is obligated to do anything for me, but at the same time I'm not obligated to not feel the way I feel about fucked up teeth being a distraction. 

 

I'm also not obligated to start a charity for drag queen dental work because I am distracted by fucked up teeth.  Or for having the audacity to have an opinion that doesn't put everyone on an even economic playing field.

Edited March 22, 2016 by RCharter

[buttercupia]

toothsforqueens.com!  hahahaha

[Demented Daisy]

I never said that a queen better fix their teeth, but if you're going to be judged on a total look thats how you're going to be judged.  No one is going to show up at the Miss America pageant and say "well, this girl has some messed up teeth, but I think she was poor so we should just give her some extra points."  The same way there are queens that will read a broke queen about a busted looking dress.  How is it not classist to read a queen for other concessions she may have to make due to lack of income (cheap outfits, questionable wigs), but its not okay to point out that bad teeth may be distracting?  

 

 

You don't see a difference between reading a queen for her make up, wigs, or outfit and reading Latrice for being overweight or Jinkx for her nose or any queen for her teeth?

[still hoping]

Actually I have seen Paris is Burning years ago....a very moving movie IMHO

 

However....to say "distracted" is not saying they are bad people...maybe if Kim Chee could walk, dance, sing, move her cartoon look and bad teeth would be less distracting. But if she is simply standing around yeah I do get distracted by her bad teeth

Frankly for more people to want to come out and see the shows and thus these Queens would make more money then they should be up to a certain level.

I also would expect them to be able to walk and dance - hey not to the level of splits and backbends but that Kim Chee just looks awkward

 

Years ago there was a show called "Queen for a Day"...they would bring on some sob story moms , widow whatever...and audience would vote for them - the saddest sob story would win, usually a new washing machine or fridge LOL

 I hate when reality tv is like that...maybe they could have a "Drag queen for  day" show and we could vote on the saddest sob story with prizes

I hate the bitches on Bachelor who whine about some tragedy, or a pimple...I hate the sob singers so sad about  dead grandpa....I don't give a fuck if a designer has a sob story or battled addiction or whatever on  project runway if their clothes suck...I really don't care about backstories any more cause they have been so overdone and misused on reality tv. Good example - we have now seen fake sob stories on shows - like the "hero veteran" on America's Got Talent who wasn't

 

This is a visual competition so yeah people will judge on visual. I know I would expect to enjoy a show I paid for , I don't go to a drag show to help support people who had a rough upbringing or to administer social justice

 

Come out to compete and shut up with the whining

 

If it is a competition shut up and compete.

[RCharter]

You don't see a difference between reading a queen for her make up, wigs, or outfit and reading Latrice for being overweight or Jinkx for her nose or any queen for her teeth?

Reading a queen for any of these things is not classist.

[SistaLadybug]

I don't think the queens themselves are whining about their dental issues.  I think the conversation is around the expectations of the audience.

 

From what I can see, the information that's been shared has been for the purposes of education and enlightenment.  Not trying to change anyone's mind so much, but simply saying, "Here's the situation".  Many of these queens have grown up underprivileged.  They've all had to deal with a society that doesn't value them.  There can be countless reasons for why one is unable to afford dental care or has put it at the bottom of the list of priorities.  Yes, they're attempting to make their living in a visual art form, however, other queens and those who are lovers of drag and familiar with it outside of what we're being shown on television are liable to have more of an understanding about what can/should be expected from those who participate in the medium.  Drag as game show is new.  This is the first exposure many people are having with it and so they may come to it expecting glossy, packaged, flawless faces, bodies, and personas like we get on other reality competition shows.  I think what some folks are saying here is that there needs to be some shifting in expectation.

 

Of course, no one can decide what someone else should find distracting or what they should expect.  However, there are socioeconomic issues at play here and there's need to recognize that.

Edited March 22, 2016 by SistaLadybug

[Demented Daisy]

Reading a queen for any of these things is not classist.

 

I didn't say it was.  But you didn't answer my question.

[RCharter]

I didn't say it was.  But you didn't answer my question.

I gave my answer.  The charge was that judging a queen for teeth was classist -- it is not.

[Demented Daisy]

I gave my answer.  The charge was that judging a queen for teeth was classist -- it is not.

 

 

That's not what I asked you, though:

 

 

You don't see a difference between reading a queen for her make up, wigs, or outfit and reading Latrice for being overweight or Jinkx for her nose or any queen for her teeth?

 

 

My question is separate from the issue of classism.

[RCharter]

I don't think the queens themselves are whining about their dental issues.  I think the conversation is around the expectations of the audience.

 

From what I can see, the information that's been shared has been for the purposes of education and enlightenment.  Not trying to change anyone's mind so much, but simply saying, "Here's the situation".  Many of these queens have grown up underprivileged.  They've all had to deal with a society that doesn't value them.  There can be countless reasons for why one is unable to afford dental care or has put it at the bottom of the list of priorities.  Yes, they're attempting to make their living in a visual art form, however, other queens and those who are lovers of drag and familiar with it outside of what we're being shown on television are liable to have more of an understanding about what can/should be expected from those who participate in the medium.  Drag as game show is new.  This is the first exposure many people are having with it and so they may come to it expecting glossy, packaged, flawless faces, bodies, and personas like we get on other reality competition shows.  I think what some folks are saying here is that there needs to be some shifting in expectation.

 

Of course, no one can decide what someone else should find distracting or what they should expect.  However, there are socioeconomic issues at play here and there's need to recognize that.

That has been recognized and accepted.  But saying that its somehow classist to judge a visual art form by the visual seems odd to me.  Especially when you're trying to put forward that you shouldn't judge an art form based on creating a face....on the teeth, which are a part of the face.  But again, we don't give points to crappy artists/sculptors because artists are generally "starving" or may not have had enough money to afford decent materials.  You're expected to judge a visual art form, on the visual.  Why should you be expected to not judge a visual art form based on the visual?

 

I think the "information" that has been shared has been some misplaced attempt to shame people for judging something visual based on the visual presentation.  Being told I shouldn't watch "Paris is Burning,"  or that I shouldn't watch and comment on RPDR because I haven't done the required reading is insulting and stupid.  The idea that I'm not even allowed to have an opinion about what I see because I haven't read the proper books off the book list is ridiculous, and its a good way to just discourage new viewers...which is unfortunate. Do we do that in any other realm?  I don't think we, as a society, do that.  We don't bar people from museums because they haven't taken an extensive art history class, and we don't say that they can't have an opinion on a piece of art because they haven't.  In fact, I would venture to say I would roll my eyes at anyone who told me that a person couldn't enjoy a piece of art, or have a reaction to it because they weren't properly schooled.  I don't see why anyone, who works to create a visual presentation, should be subject to different rules.  I'm not going to take a personal history to determine whether or not bad teeth distract me....doesn't matter if you're rich, poor, middle class, if your teeth are distracting, they are distracting.  A poor person may have scraped together enough money, begged, borrowed and stole to get their teeth done, and a rich person may have the money, but a deadly fear of dentists.  Doesn't matter to me, because no matter how rich, or how poor, whether you are the proletariat or the bourgeoisie -- I will still be distracted by bad teeth in this situation.  I have no idea why knowing someone's back ground would make it any less distracting....suddenly my brain isn't going to see fucked up teeth because someone is poor?

That's not what I asked you, though:

 

 

 

 

My question is separate from the issue of classism.

Again, I gave my answer, if you're looking for another answer, I'm sorry, you'll have to live with the answer I gave.  

 

If you're hoping to make some overarching point, you should make it.  If not, you should know that what I gave you is my final answer.

Edited March 22, 2016 by RCharter

[Demented Daisy]

Again, I gave my answer, if you're looking for another answer, I'm sorry, you'll have to live with the answer I gave.  

 

If you're hoping to make some overarching point, you should make it.

 

I'm looking for an answer to my question and no, I do not believe that you answered it.  Nor do I think I'll ever get an answer, so I'm done.  

[RCharter]

I'm looking for an answer to my question and no, I do not believe that you answered it.  Nor do I think I'll ever get an answer, so I'm done.  

I gave my answer, but you are right, you won't get an answer beyond that.  Have a great day.

[SistaLadybug]

That has been recognized and accepted.  But saying that its somehow classist to judge a visual art form by the visual seems odd to me.  Especially when you're trying to put forward that you shouldn't judge an art form based on creating a face....on the teeth, which are a part of the face.  But again, we don't give points to crappy artists/sculptors because artists are generally "starving" or may not have had enough money to afford decent materials.  You're expected to judge a visual art form, on the visual.  Why should you be expected to not judge a visual art form based on the visual?

 

I think the "information" that has been shared has been some misplaced attempt to shame people for judging something visual based on the visual presentation.  Being told I shouldn't watch "Paris is Burning,"  or that I shouldn't watch and comment on RPDR because I haven't done the required reading is insulting and stupid.  If I'm not even allowed to have an opinion about what I see because I haven't read the proper books off the book list is ridiculous, and its a good way to just discourage new viewers...which is unfortunate. Do we do that in any other realm?  I don't think we, as a society, do that.  I don't see why anyone, who works to create a visual presentation, should be subject to different rules.  I'm not going to take a personal history to determine whether or not bad teeth distract me....doesn't matter if you're rich, poor, middle class, if your teeth are distracting, they are distracting.  I have no idea why knowing someone's back ground would make it any less distracting....suddenly my brain isn't going to see fucked up teeth because someone is poor?

Again, I gave my answer, if you're looking for another answer, I'm sorry, you'll have to live with the answer I gave.  

 

If you're hoping to make some overarching point, you should make it.

Well, I'm not calling you classist because I don't know you outside of your responses here on previously, so I have no way of knowing that about you.  

I do think a visual art form can be judged on the visuals.  I also think that one is more likely to see things like imperfect teeth in this art form given those who participate in it.

 

The sarcasm of the post about "Paris Is Burning" was discussed and acknowledged.  I saw some degree of snark on both sides, but that's neither here nor there.  I don't know how familiar you are with drag outside of RPDR, but I do encourage you to watch "Paris Is Burning". It's excellent, entertaining, and gives an inside look into the life of drag queens, particularly those who are queens of color and often living hand to mouth.  It's background material for RPDR as many of the phrases you'll hear the queens using are explained therein, as are some larger concepts about what drag is and means to the queens, what it's like to be a gay man in the world (particularly if you're Black/Latino and poor) and what the queens are hoping to convey.  If one were new to drag as an art and a culture and all one knew was "Drag Race", I think the expectations would be different than if one had more of a wide-ranging idea of what drag is and can be.  That's the blessing and the curse of this show.  It can introduce a much wider audience to drag but it can also skew perceptions of what drag should be.

[RCharter]

Well, I'm not calling you classist because I don't know you outside of your responses here on previously, so I have no way of knowing that about you.  

I do think a visual art form can be judged on the visuals.  I also think that one is more likely to see things like imperfect teeth in this art form given those who participate in it.

 

The sarcasm of the post about "Paris Is Burning" was discussed and acknowledged.  I saw some degree of snark on both sides, but that's neither here nor there.  I don't know how familiar you are with drag outside of RPDR, but I do encourage you to watch "Paris Is Burning". It's excellent, entertaining, and gives an inside look into the life of drag queens, particularly those who are queens of color and often living hand to mouth.  It's background material for RPDR as many of the phrases you'll hear the queens using are explained therein, as are some larger concepts about what drag is and means to the queens, what it's like to be a gay man in the world (particularly if you're Black/Latino and poor) and what the queens are hoping to convey.  If one were new to drag as an art and a culture and all one knew was "Drag Race", I think the expectations would be different than if one had more of a wide-ranging idea of what drag is and can be.  That's the blessing and the curse of this show.  It can introduce a much wider audience to drag but it can also skew perceptions of what drag should be.

I have said, on multiple occasions that I understand that a queen may not have enough money to get her teeth fixed.  I also said that it doesn't particularly make a queen bad for having messed up teeth.  I only said that the bad teeth can be distract from the artistry.  That is all.  I have no idea why it turned into classism, and I find the very thought odd.  

 

This show almost always allows queens to explain their take on drag and what they are hoping to accomplish, this show has introduced a wide variety of drag as an art form.   But when you start to tell people that they have a list of required reading/viewing before they are fit to have an opinion, all that is going to be accomplished is that people are going to just watch something else that doesn't require the background reading.  And that's really too bad, because I think the show is unique, interesting, entertaining, and a good way to introduce people to something they may otherwise be unfamiliar with.  

[SistaLadybug]

This show almost always allows queens to explain their take on drag and what they are hoping to accomplish, this show has introduced a wide variety of drag as an art form.   But when you start to tell people that they have a list of required reading/viewing before they are fit to have an opinion, all that is going to be accomplished is that people are going to just watch something else that doesn't require the background reading.  And that's really too bad, because I think the show is unique, interesting, entertaining, and a good way to introduce people to something they may otherwise be unfamiliar with.  

This part I do agree with.  I think it can be a good introduction to people who have no idea what drag is or might have been curious but didn't want to go to a show.  I hope that folks who are introduced this way delve deeper into the art - the history of it and how it's being performed today.  That's not a requirement, by any means, but it will add layers of appreciation for these artists.

[AntManBee]

 

Because drag is about creating a look, there is something to be said for the purely aesthetic.  The makeup is aesthetic, the shoes, the hair, the padding...all aesthetic.  If you are creating a look than people are going to look at total package, and teeth are a part of that.  ....  No one is obligated to do anything for me, but at the same time I'm not obligated to not feel the way I feel about fucked up teeth being a distraction.

 

But saying that its somehow classist to judge a visual art form by the visual seems odd to me.  Especially when you're trying to put forward that you shouldn't judge an art form based on creating a face....on the teeth, which are a part of the face.  But again, we don't give points to crappy artists/sculptors because artists are generally "starving" or may not have had enough money to afford decent materials.  You're expected to judge a visual art form, on the visual.  Why should you be expected to not judge a visual art form based on the visual?

 

 

The problem I have with this whole interpretation is that drag is more than about creating a look.  It is not static.  It is not a sculpture or a painting.  Drag is, if you want to use your artistry term, a performance art.  There are elements of visual aesthetics ascribed to this, just as much as there is physicality, wit, humor, and an element of ephemeralism.  You seem very quick to reduce drag to simply pure aesthetics, and at that, aesthetics which are rooted in traditional forms of upperclass, western, beauty.  This leaves little room for butch queens, camp queens, or booger drag.  But when you reduce queens to simply being a visual art-form and then judge queens by your standards of beauty, one that is a first world, enfranchised, display of wealth/health, such as good teeth, you are employing a classist critique.   There is nothing wrong with this.  You are entitled to this.  However, if I said Bob the Drag Queen would be better if she were exactly the same, only white-skinned, I can hide behind aesthetic preferences, but really its a racist critique. 

 

 

Being told I shouldn't watch "Paris is Burning,"  or that I shouldn't watch and comment on RPDR because I haven't done the required reading is insulting and stupid.  The idea that I'm not even allowed to have an opinion about what I see because I haven't read the proper books off the book list is ridiculous, and its a good way to just discourage new viewers...which is unfortunate. Do we do that in any other realm?  I don't think we, as a society, do that.  We don't bar people from museums because they haven't taken an extensive art history class, and we don't say that they can't have an opinion on a piece of art because they haven't.  In fact, I would venture to say I would roll my eyes at anyone who told me that a person couldn't enjoy a piece of art, or have a reaction to it because they weren't properly schooled.  I don't see why anyone, who works to create a visual presentation, should be subject to different rules.  I'm not going to take a personal history to determine whether or not bad teeth distract me....doesn't matter if you're rich, poor, middle class, if your teeth are distracting, they are distracting.  A poor person may have scraped together enough money, begged, borrowed and stole to get their teeth done, and a rich person may have the money, but a deadly fear of dentists.  Doesn't matter to me, because no matter how rich, or how poor, whether you are the proletariat or the bourgeoisie -- I will still be distracted by bad teeth in this situation. I have no idea why knowing someone's back ground would make it any less distracting....suddenly my brain isn't going to see fucked up teeth because someone is poor?

When I said "Don't watch Paris is Burning," I was poking fun at your aesthetic value placement of the importance of good teeth in your appreciation of drag.   I also work at an art museum, and frequently enjoy hearing people's interpretations of art and the personal reflections and life experiences they bring to this.  However, it is also common to hear that abstraction isn't real art, or that "my kid could paint that."  While these are personal opinions on aesthetics, which they are entitled to, they also would be derided by anybody who spent time learning about art history, artists' intentions, or cultural mores that fostered the art which was created.  So, yes, there are other avenues where you are judged based on your history and understanding of a medium.  That doesn't mean you aren't entitled to an opinion, but it does help understand the value and merits of your opinion.  So if you say something on a forum such as this, you can also expect it to be challenged, or at least be asked to clarify.   Likewise, I also suggested that everyone who likes RPDR or posts here should see the film because it is a fantastic documentary which I think fans of the show would enjoy.  It also gives a greater understanding of the drag movement, ball scene, and history of drag in an era when RuPaul was just breaking out.   Plus, many of the references that are used on the show will make more contextual sense.  Bob brings it to you every episode because Kim Pendarvis brought it to you at every ball, imperfect teeth and all.  It is great that RPDR has brought in so many new fans to the drag scene, but its equally important to understand there is a long history of drag beyond what has been presented for the last 8 seasons. 

Edited March 22, 2016 by AntManBee

[Zuleikha]

Also, do Kim Chi or Chi Chi even really have bad teeth? Like yeah, when they're talking in the breakroom, I can occasionally see that Kim Chi has something atypical going on with her back teeth and Chi Chi may be missing a molar, but I've never noticed anything when they're actually on stage performing.

[jellywager]

 

I hate the bitches on Bachelor who whine about some tragedy, or a pimple...I hate the sob singers so sad about dead grandpa....I don't give a fuck if a designer has a sob story or battled addiction or whatever on project runway if their clothes suck...I really don't care about backstories any more cause they have been so overdone and misused on reality tv. Good example - we have now seen fake sob stories on shows - like the "hero veteran" on America's Got Talent who wasn't...

 

Thank you! I hate the sob stories! It just seems so pathetic. Like when Roxxy Andrews was on the bottom so she started crying and talking about her childhood (which the story was really sad but it was not the time or place for it). And Willam pulled out a sob story just to appease the judges accusing him of being arrogant.

RPDR is the first time I allowed myself to be exposed to drag queens. I always dismissive because I just thought it was about lip syncing to songs and that sounded boring to me. Tharren was roommates with my best friend at the time in Chicago in the 90's. He brought a drag queen over to their apartment and I could not eat in front of her and I was overwhelmed by her femininity. I felt put to shame and not famine enough even though the DQ was welcoming and nice.

I did notice Kim Chi had a gap in her lower teeth, but she is so adorable and so artistic that I overlooked it in her. Now I can't even notice ChiChi's teeth bc I'm just starting at her sickening body. DANG!

I have to admit that in the real world, when I see someone with a missing tooth I immediately judge (only in my head) that the person is not the wealthiest. But I also self judge bc my husband has a missing side tooth and insurance won't cover it bc it is considered cosmetic. The implant he needs costs $3k, and we don't have that kind of $$ for it. ( but this after he has has 4 root canals).

I have watched Paris is Burning. The people not only dressed up as women, but there was some that dressed in military uniforms. It was the person's fantasy to fit in pot a part of society that he was banned from. It is such an intriguing movie.

Edited March 31, 2016 by jellywager

[RCharter]

The problem I have with this whole interpretation is that drag is more than about creating a look.  It is not static.  It is not a sculpture or a painting.  Drag is, if you want to use your artistry term, a performance art.  There are elements of visual aesthetics ascribed to this, just as much as there is physicality, wit, humor, and an element of ephemeralism.  You seem very quick to reduce drag to simply pure aesthetics, and at that, aesthetics which are rooted in traditional forms of upperclass, western, beauty.  This leaves little room for butch queens, camp queens, or booger drag.  But when you reduce queens to simply being a visual art-form and then judge queens by your standards of beauty, one that is a first world, enfranchised, display of wealth/health, such as good teeth, you are employing a classist critique.   There is nothing wrong with this.  You are entitled to this.  However, if I said Bob the Drag Queen would be better if she were exactly the same, only white-skinned, I can hide behind aesthetic preferences, but really its a racist critique. 

 

When I said "Don't watch Paris is Burning," I was poking fun at your aesthetic value placement of the importance of good teeth in your appreciation of drag.   I also work at an art museum, and frequently enjoy hearing people's interpretations of art and the personal reflections and life experiences they bring to this.  However, it is also common to hear that abstraction isn't real art, or that "my kid could paint that."  While these are personal opinions on aesthetics, which they are entitled to, they also would be derided by anybody who spent time learning about art history, artists' intentions, or cultural mores that fostered the art which was created.  So, yes, there are other avenues where you are judged based on your history and understanding of a medium.  That doesn't mean you aren't entitled to an opinion, but it does help understand the value and merits of your opinion.  So if you say something on a forum such as this, you can also expect it to be challenged, or at least be asked to clarify.   Likewise, I also suggested that everyone who likes RPDR or posts here should see the film because it is a fantastic documentary which I think fans of the show would enjoy.  It also gives a greater understanding of the drag movement, ball scene, and history of drag in an era when RuPaul was just breaking out.   Plus, many of the references that are used on the show will make more contextual sense.  Bob brings it to you every episode because Kim Pendarvis brought it to you at every ball, imperfect teeth and all.  It is great that RPDR has brought in so many new fans to the drag scene, but its equally important to understand there is a long history of drag beyond what has been presented for the last 8 seasons. 

 

Drag is an visual art form and therefore, a party has every right to base their opinion on what they see.  The same way they can with any other form of visual art.  Acting is a visual art form, and its also about creating a character and bringing a character to life.  However, if I judge BBC's version of Pride&Prejudice as inferior because their choice of actress doesn't comport with the version in the book that is perfectly legitimate, no matter how great the actress is.  That the actresses look and age is distracting is a perfectly valid opinion.

 

Honestly, is sounds like if people don't use your criteria to judge a piece of art, you find that their opinion somehow means less.  I don't, if you can look at a piece of art and it brings something to you, I think thats great.  If you look at a piece of art and you think its ridiculous and your five year old could do it, thats fine too.  I do have a problem with people who try to tell others what to think or to tell them that their opinion somehow isn't worthy because they haven't used the same criteria to judge something that another person would use.  Its the same sort of thing that creates what I like to call "The Emperors New Outfit" phenomena.  Instead of encouraging people to think for themselves and form opinions for themselves, we instead force someone else's standards on them.  I think its often an easy and convenient way to stifle independent thought and to hope that people simply follow the opinions and thoughts of others who are "better educated." Its  about using someone else's thinking as a proxy for your own thinking.  And I don't find anything admirable in that.

 

I have said, multiple times that I enjoy Kim Chi's drag, which, for her, is greatly based on look.  The teeth distract from the look she is trying to create.  I have never called her a bad queen for it, I have only said that the teeth are distracting, which, for me visually, they are.  

 

The very idea that I would somehow watch Paris is Burning and not be distracted by bad teeth on this show is the epitome of the Emperors New Clothing style of thinking.  Suddenly I'm not going to see something because I watched a movie?  Or its no longer going to be visually distracting because I watched a movie?  To me, that makes no sense.  

 

And for the record, I don't think you were "poking fun."  I think you were being downright mean spirited, which is fine, but its an attitude like that that ultimately will make people say "gosh, I have to watch a movie before I can even have an opinion?  No thanks, I'll just watch a show where I can have an opinion that I form on my own."  Which to me, is a disservice to drag, which I think can and should be appreciated by everyone, who can then form their opinion in light of having watched the movie or not having watched the movie.  If someone watches the show and they only like fishy queens their opinion is just as valid as a person who loves Sharon Needles.

 

Your "opinion" has merit merely by the virtue of it being your opinion.  You can be asked to explain your opinion, but its no better or worse because you watched a movie or did all the required reading.

 

And what you said was that if anyone wants to give a valid opinion on the show, they can only do so after watching Paris is Burning, and suggested that their opinion would not be valid otherwise.  Which, frankly, I find to be elitist and silly.

 

This is a reality show, I don't think you have to "understand the drag movement" before watching it and forming a legitimate and valid opinion.  We don't ask people to understand the history of cooking before watching Top Chef, or to understand the entire history of fashion before watching Project Runway.  Nor frankly would I think an outfit is less ugly, or looks better on PR by understanding the history of fashion. 

Edited March 31, 2016 by RCharter

[Rai]

So, I've watched the performance like a gazillion times because I'm like that, but there's something that's been puzzling me.  I doubt any of the queens were pre-taped for this.  I assume they found actual ladies to sing the arrangements.  However, at the beginning, Kim Chi recites the rules ("keep it cute or sashay away"), and the voice is a rather uncomfortable Asian accent.  Is Kim Chi's character explicitly Asian in their script?  Did they tape their vocal intros?  How did that work exactly?

 

(Also, seriously, I thought the accent to be a little on the stereotypical side, but maaaaaybe I'm reading too much into it?)