S06.E08: Season 6, Episode 8

[DeccaMitford]

 

Fellows pushed what could have been an interesting take on the ice-queen type into caricature territory, not allowing the character to suffer any -real- consequences of her actions and to grow to a more mature and slightly more likable version of herself.

 

And it's really a shame, because for the last several seasons I honestly thought this is where it was going. It seemed like the real story was Mary coming to terms with the kind of person she wanted to be, after the one person who she could be vulnerable with was taken from her. In season four she expressed so much fascinating ambivalence about her own nature, saying how she wished she could be as hard and cold as she was before she met Matthew, since it would make her more resilient - but also missing the softer, less cold but also less strong woman he saw in her. There was so much push/pull between those two sides of her, and it was never clear (least of all to Mary!) which side would or even should win out.

 

Think about how interesting it would have been to watch Mary honestly confront the fact that her whole family colluded together, without even really having to discuss it, to keep something huge from her; and all because they were all convinced that she would be terrible about it. Even Anna, who was never told not to tell Mary and has in the past been the character most loyal to her, knew instinctively that this was damaging information for Mary to have, and it had to be kept from her. How much fun would it have been to see Mary actually deal with the fact that the whole house thinks of her as a bully, even the ones like Tom and Anna that she's closest to? How interesting would it have been to watch her wrestle with that, and decide whether to either prove them wrong or embrace the Ice Queen persona they've saddled her with (that she partly enjoys)? That's the story I was looking forward to when it looked like Mary was about to find out about Marigold.

 

Instead we got...what we got, where she proved to everyone that they were right not to tell her, and the whole mess turned into a plot device to justify her marriage to some rando.

Edited November 11, 2015 by DeccaMitford

[Kirsty]

it was more like Mary/Matthew/getting over his death by cars. Goode was the plot-device.

 

That's a neat way of putting it. But in that case, Mary's story is still all about Matthew. Her primary romance is with Matthew, and her secondary romance is about getting over Matthew's death. That means the show never got over Matthew. They were never able to replace him. (Tom came closest to replacing him.)

 

The show missed a golden opportunity by not pursuing a Mary/Tom romance. An accidentally perfect match right there under the writer's nose and he ignores it. Either he's too inflexible to want to adapt his writing to what is working best on screen. Or he doesn't believe that Mary would marry someone of such inferior birth. Either way, it makes Julian Fellowes sound like Carson!

Edited November 11, 2015 by Kirsty

[Andorra]

 

The show missed a golden opportunity by not pursuing a Mary/Tom romance. An accidentally perfect match right there under the writer's nose and he ignores it. Either he's too inflexible to want to adapt his writing to what is working best on screen. Or he doesn't believe that Mary would marry someone of such inferior birth. Either way, it makes Julian Fellowes sound like Carson!

 

I agree!

[skyways]

Both of them needed to be written differently than they were to make it work and believable - Mary slightly more so and Tom a LOT more so. Yes in hindsight Matthew leaving crashed and burned Mary's and by extension the Downton story. Fellowes tried though but missed many opportunities to close that gaping hole - season 4 was all about closing the hole and starting on a clean slate but alas 'the car veered off the road again' - pun fully intended!

 

And it's really a shame, because for the last several seasons I honestly thought this is where it was going. It seemed like the real story was Mary coming to terms with the kind of person she wanted to be, after the one person who she could be vulnerable with was taken from her. In season four she expressed so much fascinating ambivalence about her own nature, saying how she wished she could be as hard and cold as she was before she met Matthew, since it would make her more resilient - but also missing the softer, less cold but also less strong woman he saw in her. There was so much push/pull between those two sides of her, and it was never clear (least of all to Mary!) which side would or even should win out.

 

Perfectly stated! And this is where Gillingham (as a plot device) could have worked better if that Mary dilemma was allowed to play out in her courtships. Instead I think, like has been repeated above Fellowes chose the path of caricature - a cold, desirable woman who toys with men and casts them off. That dilemma was solved.

Edited November 11, 2015 by skyways

[vesperholly]

Think about how interesting it would have been to watch Mary honestly confront the fact that her whole family colluded together, without even really having to discuss it, to keep something huge from her; and all because they were all convinced that she would be terrible about it. Even Anna, who was never told not to tell Mary and has in the past been the character most loyal to her, knew instinctively that this was damaging information for Mary to have, and it had to be kept from her. How much fun would it have been to see Mary actually deal with the fact that the whole house thinks of her as a bully, even the ones like Tom and Anna that she's closest to? How interesting would it have been to watch her wrestle with that, and decide whether to either prove them wrong or embrace the Ice Queen persona they've saddled her with (that she partly enjoys)? That's the story I was looking forward to when it looked like Mary was about to find out about Marigold.

 

Instead we got...what we got, where she proved to everyone that they were right not to tell her, and the whole mess turned into a plot device to justify her marriage to some rando.

 

That would have been fascinating. At least we were mostly spared Mary being all indignant about the truth being hidden from her. Bitch, you just proved the rule.

[Avaleigh]

Watching it again, it wasn't just Mary's behavior towards Edith that's awful. The way she squints and glares at Bertie for having the horrible taste to be interested in Edith on top of being boring was hilarious in how awful it was. If Bertie had choked on his breakfast right there in the dining room I have no problem imagining Mary smirking once she has a moment to be alone. I think it would be next to impossible for her to not say something inappropriate if something like that had happened.

At the same time, if Bertie had been the kind of man who would be easily willing to transfer his affections I don't think that Mary would be interested in having him for herself nor do I think she'd try to steal Bertie away if he were to give her any encouragement.

Is this really so odd? I personally change how I judge people's behavior based on their relative power all the time. It's why when my four year old niece has a tantrum and tells her dad "you're stupid and I hate you," he doesn't let it hurt his feelings, but he'd be an abusive monster if he said the same thing to her. Edith annoys Mary, and she often does it deliberately, but Mary's general attitude towards it is only that: annoyance. Mary is cruel to Edith, both to her face and behind her back. She has more power in the relationship and always has, and I think it does make a difference. Edith's barbs always seem to come out of insecurity or resentment, while Mary's come out of contempt, or boredom, or habit, and I think a lot of people can more readily empathize with insecurity over contempt. I think a lot of people instinctively side with the underdog in any story. At least I do. And Edith is pretty unambiguously the underdog in her relationship with Mary.

In season two, Matthew half-heartedly asked Mary to be nicer to Edith, and Mary replied, with a smile, that "that's like asking the fox to spare the chicken." She's mean to Edith for fun. She herself thinks of Edith as the victim here. She thinks of Edith as her inherently weaker prey that she has no choice but to pounce on. That's why I can't help but ask, if Mary is so bothered by Edith, and Edith's behavior, why would she want to keep Edith around? Because that's all she's managed to do.

Don't get me wrong, I think Mary is the more interesting character of the two, and part of the reason she interests me is that she's a rare female character who doesn't really care all that much about being nice, and partly relishes the fact that a lot people are afraid of her. But I'd have more respect for the show if it would, for once, follow through with Mary's complexity and show how it would ultimately operate in the real world. Because in the real world, I think most of us try to avoid people like Mary.

Re: My feeling that Mary has just as much right to dislike Edith as Edith has to dislike Mary, I don't see Edith as having been powerless in their relationship nor did I get the impression when we were introduced to the characters that Edith has been a lifelong victim of Mary's who is constantly trod upon. When Edith said that she known Mary to be an awful, scheming bitch I thought she easily could have been describing herself as far as her behavior to her sister over the years. Even Laura Carmichael described her character as a bitch and this was the year the third season aired.

As far as Edith supposedly not having power or advantages and this giving her more of a right to dislike Mary--I guess this comes down to me thinking that the character is a hell of a lot more privileged than she's usually made out to be by the fandom.

Apart from Mary being prettier (something that some fans dispute) and being more attractive to men, Edith has grown up with the same advantages as Mary. We've seen the love and support of her family over the years and we've seen her privileged life help her and afford her opportunities that would thrill other people. Robert and Cora discussing the reality that their daughter failed to catch any suitors during her seasons unlike the other two wasn't an indication that they didn't love or care about Edith. They were "worried" about the ghastly prospect of her ending up as an old maid who cares for them in their old age. What's regularly forgotten about when Cora is criticized for talking to Mary about Edith having fewer advantages is that the only reason Cora even said that was because she was trying to get Mary to be nicer to Edith and give her a break. She tried (and failed unfortunately) to appeal to Mary's better nature.

I agree that Mary crossed the line from needling to being deliberately cruel. That being said, when Mary was explaining to Violet why she did it and rolled her eyes to gesture how Edith goes out of her way to annoy her--I totally understood where Mary was coming from. She wasn't lashing out at Edith for breathing and existing. She was lashing out because she was angry, she was hurt over Henry, and Edith decided to rub salt in the wound because she wanted to make it crystal clear that she's once again in a better position than Mary while announcing to the room that Mary has ruined her life. If Mary had done that to Edith, Edith would have been all sad and wounded and Mary would have been criticized for rubbing her happiness in her sister's face.

I agree that Mary is the more interesting character between the sisters but definitely think Edith is interesting and have always been fascinated by their dynamic.

Edited November 11, 2015 by Avaleigh

[DeccaMitford]

 

She was lashing out because she was angry, she was hurt over Henry, and Edith decided to rub salt in the wound because she wanted to make it crystal clear that she's once again in a better position than Mary while announcing to the room that Mary has ruined her life.

 

Yeah, I get that that's what Mary said and how Mary saw it, but it's also really not what happened, as far as I remember it. What I saw was Bertie wanting to announce an engagement, Edith telling him it wasn't a good time, Mary pointedly glowering, Edith noticing and reacting to it with harsh words, and Mary responding by lowering the hammer. I get that Edith was annoying Mary. I still maintain that cruelty is a worse crime than being annoying.

 

And when I talk about power, I'm talking about relative power between Edith and Mary, not absolute power that either of them holds inherently. And Mary has power, relative to Edith. Personality has a lot to do with it - Mary tends to be strong willed and dictatorial, while Edith tends to be passive (usually until she panics and lashes out inexpertly). Birth order has a TON to do with it - and birth order meant a lot to families like these.

And I'm sorry, I'll just never accept the premise that Robert and Cora treated the two of them the same, until very very recently. I understand that when Cora said "Edith doesn't have your advantages" she was trying to get Mary to be nicer, but that's nothing but evidence that Cora was a pretty shitty mother, who had a huge hand in creating this tire fire of a relationship that Mary and Edith have. What she was appealing to wasn't Mary's better nature, it was her sense of noblesse-oblige, which is inherently tied to her sense of superiority. A decent mother, who was really trying to appeal to Mary's sense of decency (which I do believe she has) would have said something like "you should be kinder to Edith, because she is a human being, and your sister, and that's what decent people do." And what really makes it damning to me is that when Mary responds "Edith has no advantages at all," Cora fails to correct her.

When Edith was touted by the general in season two for her work with the soldiers, the whole family was shocked. Not even pleased, just shocked. I don't think any of them even smiled. That's not the reaction of a family that treats their daughters with equal love and attention.

[Lady Grump]

I'm a simple sucker -- so I loved this episode. Loved the Spratt reveal...YAAAASSS!; loved Mary finally realizing she is a bitch and seemingly (in my estimation) feeling bad about it; fist-pumped Edith telling Mary off; did it again when Tom did the same; thrilled that Barrow didn't die and loved little George's visit; glad Carson appears to be realizing that he is a pill; loved Edith at her magazine, and watching the kids at the end. And yes, I'm even glad Talbot and Mary ended up together.

 

And the clothes!

[RedWolf]

And it's really a shame, because for the last several seasons I honestly thought this is where it was going. It seemed like the real story was Mary coming to terms with the kind of person she wanted to be, after the one person who she could be vulnerable with was taken from her. In season four she expressed so much fascinating ambivalence about her own nature, saying how she wished she could be as hard and cold as she was before she met Matthew, since it would make her more resilient - but also missing the softer, less cold but also less strong woman he saw in her. There was so much push/pull between those two sides of her, and it was never clear (least of all to Mary!) which side would or even should win out.

 

Think about how interesting it would have been to watch Mary honestly confront the fact that her whole family colluded together, without even really having to discuss it, to keep something huge from her; and all because they were all convinced that she would be terrible about it. Even Anna, who was never told not to tell Mary and has in the past been the character most loyal to her, knew instinctively that this was damaging information for Mary to have, and it had to be kept from her. How much fun would it have been to see Mary actually deal with the fact that the whole house thinks of her as a bully, even the ones like Tom and Anna that she's closest to? How interesting would it have been to watch her wrestle with that, and decide whether to either prove them wrong or embrace the Ice Queen persona they've saddled her with (that she partly enjoys)? That's the story I was looking forward to when it looked like Mary was about to find out about Marigold.

 

Instead we got...what we got, where she proved to everyone that they were right not to tell her, and the whole mess turned into a plot device to justify her marriage to some rando.

I would have loved to see that but that just goes to show how much potential JF just left there by the wayside.

[Avaleigh]

Yeah, I get that that's what Mary said and how Mary saw it, but it's also really not what happened, as far as I remember it. What I saw was Bertie wanting to announce an engagement, Edith telling him it wasn't a good time, Mary pointedly glowering, Edith noticing and reacting to it with harsh words, and Mary responding by lowering the hammer. I get that Edith was annoying Mary. I still maintain that cruelty is a worse crime than being annoying.

 

And when I talk about power, I'm talking about relative power between Edith and Mary, not absolute power that either of them holds inherently. And Mary has power, relative to Edith. Personality has a lot to do with it - Mary tends to be strong willed and dictatorial, while Edith tends to be passive (usually until she panics and lashes out inexpertly). Birth order has a TON to do with it - and birth order meant a lot to families like these.

And I'm sorry, I'll just never accept the premise that Robert and Cora treated the two of them the same, until very very recently. I understand that when Cora said "Edith doesn't have your advantages" she was trying to get Mary to be nicer, but that's nothing but evidence that Cora was a pretty shitty mother, who had a huge hand in creating this tire fire of a relationship that Mary and Edith have. What she was appealing to wasn't Mary's better nature, it was her sense of noblesse-oblige, which is inherently tied to her sense of superiority. A decent mother, who was really trying to appeal to Mary's sense of decency (which I do believe she has) would have said something like "you should be kinder to Edith, because she is a human being, and your sister, and that's what decent people do." And what really makes it damning to me is that when Mary responds "Edith has no advantages at all," Cora fails to correct her.

When Edith was touted by the general in season two for her work with the soldiers, the whole family was shocked. Not even pleased, just shocked. I don't think any of them even smiled. That's not the reaction of a family that treats their daughters with equal love and attention.

In my opinion it goes well past being annoying when you're telling a person that their life is in ruins while also telling them that your life is "better" than theirs. If Mary had put it that way to Edith I think people would think that Mary was being cruel. Like, 'Oh, there Mary is again making sure Edith knows that she's superior while she let's Edith know how horribly her life has been ruined.' It went past being annoying. Edith recognized that Mary was hurting but couldn't stop. She couldn't let it rest when Mary said that she wanted Henry to go. Edith had to embarrass her and refused to let her save face. IMO it's because she wanted to hurt her sister.

I thought Cora told Mary not to be "unkind" in that conversation and then decided not to fight with Mary because they had to head down. Cora is a pretty passive person in general, I don't think this makes her a shitty mother. There's loads of evidence that the girls were treated the same but Edith would complain of favoritism anyway even when it was only in her mind. The dress conversation with Sybil is a perfect example.

Edith thinking of herself as a failure as opposed to somebody who has been failed by her parents are two different things completely to me.

You mention the general complimenting Edith--Cora was quite pleased and it was evident in her facial expression. Mary was the one who looked surprised and never made the lemon face. The lemon face was very much in evidence in this episode though.

Anyway, I'm not trying to change any body's mind I'm just trying to explain why I understand Mary's dislike of Edith. I agree that Mary was wrong and horrible to have done what she did.

[SusanSunflower]

and I've always seen Edith as the more interesting character who had to find the initiative because little was handed her ... so she makes lemonade out of Strallen and leaps for the opportunity to write a column (which is well received) ... and then -- despite being conflicted about Gregson -- daringly decided to get closer ... 

Edith's actions have not always been admirable but she has experienced being jilted, being abandoned while pregnant, being overlooked and disparaged by her family ... and we're not even mentioning Patrick and Patrick's death and burned/fake Patrick and her gamely, volunteering in nursing and dealing with roomfuls of men who fairly terrified her. 

But then I always had great respect for Lavinia saving her father by outwitting Carlyle ... 

I don't find Mary the "more interesting" ... If she were to read a book I have no idea what that book might be ... if she had a friend, I wonder what hobbies or passions they might share ... Mary is not close to her mother, her mother-in-law,  her sister or her Aunt ... she's not really "close" with Anna her servant ...  It's not even that she's private or guarded -- I feel she not interested in their opinions about anything.  She may be daddy's girl, but she's not really emotionally "close" to Robert either and at this point seems to consider him all-too-often as an obstacle to her ambitions. ...Tom will be her ally and facilitator ... not a competitor, not really, as long as Robert is alive.  

I've love to know more about what Edith writes and who she admires.  I have doubts that Mary could articulate much of an opinion about anything ... more likely she'd offer some variation on whatever she'd heart Robert or Violet say ... or claim to have no opinion about such matters ... 

Edited November 12, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[DianeDobbler]

She was lashing out because she was angry, she was hurt over Henry, and Edith decided to rub salt in the wound because she wanted to make it crystal clear that she's once again in a better position than Mary while announcing to the room that Mary has ruined her life.

 

I agree with Decca. IMO it's a double standard. Mary rubs salt in Edith's wounds with her morning tea, but God forbid Edith return the favor. Mary is vile to Edith every day as a matter of course. I can't remember a time Mary has done for Edith even the small things Edith has done for her, such as telling Mary about Matthew, such as being concerned after the crash at Henry's race day. Edit is simply not granted the same license Mary is granted vis a vis Edith. If Mary isn't ruining Edith's life with what she says no matter high ill-timed or mean spirited, she gets a pass. If Edith does the same to Mary, it's a green light to ruin Edith's life.

[Avaleigh]

and I've always seen Edith as the more interesting character who had to find the initiative because little was handed her ... so she makes lemonade out of Strallen and leaps for the opportunity to write a column (which is well received) ... and then -- despite being conflicted about Gregson -- daringly decided to get closer ...

Edith's actions have not always been admirable but she has experienced being jilted, being abandoned while pregnant, being overlooked and disparaged by her family ... and we're not even mentioning Patrick and Patrick's death and burned/fake Patrick and her gamely, volunteering in nursing and dealing with roomfuls of men who fairly terrified her.

But then I always had great respect for Lavinia saving her father by outwitting Carlyle ...

I don't find Mary the "more interesting" ... If she were to read a book I have no idea what that book might be ... if she had a friend, I wonder what hobbies or passions they might share ... Mary is not close to her mother, her mother-in-law, her sister or her Aunt ... she's not really "close" with Anna her servant ... It's not even that she's private or guarded -- I feel she not interested in their opinions about anything. She may be daddy's girl, but she's not really emotionally "close" to Robert either and at this point seems to consider him all-too-often as an obstacle to her ambitions. ...Tom will be her ally and facilitator ... not a competitor, not really, as long as Robert is alive.

I've love to know more about what Edith writes and who she admires. I have doubts that Mary could articulate much of an opinion about anything ... more likely she'd offer some variation on whatever she'd heart Robert or Violet say ... or claim to have no opinion about such matters ...

Re: the bit in bold

It's funny that you say that because in the first season it was Mary who cared to ask Anna for her opinion on women's lib. Sybil and Edith were both in the room but it was Mary who was curious to know what Anna thinks.

I also feel that Edith's family is regularly used as an excuse for why she's had such an uphill battle but when Mary has similar issues of the family meddling or discouraging her or not being supportive, it's seemingly overlooked or flat out ignored because Mary has had a more active love life than Edith.

ETA: I promise to take any further discussion of the sisters to Mary and Edith's thread.

Edited November 12, 2015 by Avaleigh

[SusanSunflower]

Mary has almost no life except her love life ... but she's an equestrian marvel who we never saw riding for years on end ... and an old-hand at estate management because it's in the genes... She can be curious about Anna's opinion in a "how the other half lives" way and still only be interested in its novelty or contrast ...  as one of the only not-rich not-family opinions she has access to and can command.  She may "revere" Violet somewhat, but I suspect it's because of Violet's influence and power over both Robert and Cora ... identification with the most powerful person in the room, as ambitious people do. 

 

Anyone think Mary has ever bothered to read a single one of Edith's columns? 

Edited November 12, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[Free]

Anyone think Mary has ever bothered to read a single one of Edith's columns?

 

Probably not and she was stuck in her snarling face mode that she was doing throughout the episode.

[RedWolf]

I also feel that Edith's family is regularly used as an excuse for why she's had such an uphill battle but when Mary has similar issues of the family meddling or discouraging her or not being supportive, it's seemingly overlooked or flat out ignored because Mary has had a more active love life than Edith.

I agree!

[vesperholly]

I think a reminder of exactly how that conversation went down is in order. Here's the transcript:

 

Lord G: You're down rather early.

Mary: No I'm not. Where's Henry?

Tom: He's gone.

Mary: What?

Lord G: He had something in London this evening and he wanted to get back.

(Mary turns her back to the table, looks upset)

Lord G: I have a mass of letters to write. (He leaves)

Bertie: I'm sorry Lord Grantham has left.

Tom: Why particularly?

Bertie: Because we've got some news. And I was waiting for Mary to join us.

Edith: It's not the right moment.

Mary: Carson, could we have some more coffee please? (she sits) (Carson leaves)

Mary: Why isn't it the right moment?

Edith: Well, Henry's abandoned you and ...

Mary (interrupts): No he hasn't. I wanted him to go.

Edith: That's not what it looked like.

Mary: Well, that's how it is.

Tom: There's no need for this. Edith, if your news is good, then we are very happy for you both. Aren't we Mary?

(Mary gives a look to the side like, "meh, whatever')

Edith: See? I told you. The one thing Mary can't bear is when things are going better for me than they are for her.

Bertie: I'm sure that's not true.

Edith: You don't know her. I'm getting married and you've lost your man and you just can't stand it.

Tom: Edith, there is no need ...

Mary: You're wrong. I'm very happy for you (sarcastically). And I admire you Bertie. Not everyone would accept Edith's past. (looks at Edith while she says this)

(Tom and Edith both stare at her looking stunned)

Tom: Mary don't.

Bertie: What do you mean?

Mary: Well, you must have told him. You couldn't accept him without telling him. (looks right at Edith)

Bertie: Tell me what?

Mary: About Marigold. Who she really is.

(Bertie looks at Edith in silence)

Edith: (long pause) Marigold is my daughter.

(Mary looks smugly at Tom, Tom looks sadly down at his plate)

Bertie: (long pause) If you would excuse me (leaves).

 

Quite surgical there, Mary - just a few sentences to destroy it all! I will grant that Edith saying Henry "abandoned" Mary was perhaps poorly worded, but the other remarks except the happiness bit I thought were made out of some form of kindness, to spare throwing Edith's good news in Mary's face after she just broke up with her boyfriend (especially since Edith seems to think Mary does care about Henry).

 

The acting is also very telling - Mary is very imperious and cold through the entire conversation, looking directly at Edith (who looks shellshocked and is holding back tears) as she drops the bomb.

 

Whatever insensitive or bitter things Edith said pale in comparison to Mary's words here. I don't think it's at all fair to imply that Edith had it coming because she's been snippy back to Mary.

Edited November 12, 2015 by vesperholly

[Avaleigh]

Thanks for posting the transcript, vesperholly.

 

When Mary asked Edith why it isn't the right moment, to me it would have been easy to say that they should wait until they can include both Robert and Cora. There wouldn't be anything odd or unnatural about that. And I agree that Edith telling Bertie that it isn't the right time was out of sensitivity to Mary. (Incidentally, it's odd that Bertie was waiting for Mary to join them since Mary usually has breakfast in her room these days. Meanwhile, Cora isn't mentioned at all but he says that he's sorry that Lord Grantham ended up leaving early.)

 

It was rude of Edith to say that Henry abandoned Mary when she doesn't even know what happened anyway. When Mary denies it, Edith can't let it go and insists on implying that her version of the situation is the correct one. I can see how that would be annoying, embarrassing, hurtful, etc. especially after a breakup that happened less than 24 hours prior. Then, Edith starts talking about Mary as if she isn't in the room--to me that's just obnoxious.  After that she can't help but insist that her life is going better and insists that Mary has lost Henry which is pretty mean to say if Edith believes that Mary and Henry are perfect for each other as she ends up saying later in the episode. When Edith starts going down this path even Tom tries to talk her down because he knows that she's hurting Mary and that Mary, as Edith well knows, is the type of person to lash out. In some ways I feel like Edith actually gets it because she lashes out too but she's ultimately willing to get over it because she knows she wasn't some innocent angel in this situation and she understands how their dynamic cuts both ways. None of this changes the fact that what Mary did was horrible. I do though think that she would take it back she could. I think even Edith thinks that she would. 

 

Ultimately, I thought Edith and Bertie both made it clear that Mary isn't the reason they aren't currently engaged at this point in the story and I think that's a large part of the reason for why Edith is able to forgive Mary in addition to the reasons Edith gave Mary as far as all of the shared memories and everything. The engagement with Bertie came to an end because of Edith's choices . That breakfast would have been very different if Edith had simply been honest with Bertie. 

[Andorra]

I'm with Avaleigh in that I can really understand where Mary comes from. I understand Edith, too, but if she was my sister, I would find her terribly annoying, too.

 

I already rolled my eyes about her, when she was moaning "am I happy now?" to Cora while they were strolling through the park. Why for heaven's sake was she whining again? Yes, she has a dark secret and she has to tell Bertie, but she had finally a good chance at being happy so come on, girl, pull yourself together and show a little backbone instead of sighing, and fidgeting and moaning "why me" again! 

 

Edith has been the victim to a lot of bad luck and I understand that it's tough for her, but she is so passive! It drives me nuts. 

 

That said, there's no denying that Mary was a real bitch to tell Bertie about Marigold. That wasn't just their usual disfunctional sisterly bad behaviour, it was downright cruel. Edith was very unwise to provoke Mary that way, but even though she did, Mary was unbelievable to do what she did. 

 

And so I LOVED the scene where Tom yelled at her in the office. She really had it coming and I loved it how she couldn't leave him standing, but had to listen and hear the truth slammed right into her face.

 

What I also loved though was her reaction to it afterwards. She knew perfectly well what she did and that Tom had told her nothing but the truth, but she didn't sulk or refused to talk to him or felt unfairly treated. She has the ability to be truthful to herself even if it's not nice what she sees. I think that shows her backbone and I love that about her.

[saki]

 

What I also loved though was her reaction to it afterwards. She knew perfectly well what she did and that Tom had told her nothing but the truth, but she didn't sulk or refused to talk to him or felt unfairly treated. She has the ability to be truthful to herself even if it's not nice what she sees. I think that shows her backbone and I love that about her.

 

What I hated most about Mary in this episode was her reaction to it afterwards.  She did not in any way accept what she did and that Tom had told her the truth - she doesn't acknowledge that at all to Edith with her first non-apology to her, she still tries to claim that she thought Edith had already told Bertie.

And then, even after the Dowager specifically tells her to first make her peace with her sister, she makes absolutely no effort to do so and Edith is the one to extend the olive branch.  

 

Not only was what Mary did one of the cruellest things I've ever seen on TV but her reaction afterwards told me she wasn't sorry at all.

[Andorra]

I don't see Mary's apology as a non-apology. She's just realistic. She knows there's nothing she can say that will make things undone and nothing she can say that will Edith forgive her, because it was unforgivable what she did. 

 

It's the same like in the scene between Edith and Mary at Sybil's deathbed. People were always accusing Mary for not taking the olive branch Edith gave her, but I only saw it as realistic. There was no chance in hell that they would ever get along or like each other more and Mary knows it. She knows she doesn't have it in her to not be annoyed about Edith and that they will have problems in the future. 

 

For me one thing in Mary's favor always was, that she is very realistic about herself. She doesn't like herself that much. She knows her faults and she knows she's not able to get out of her skin. It would be a fairy tale if she was able to change and I love it that it is not a fairy tale. 

[saki]

I don't see Mary's apology as a non-apology. She's just realistic. She knows there's nothing she can say that will make things undone and nothing she can say that will Edith forgive her, because it was unforgivable what she did. 

 

 

Well, it certainly wasn't an apology - so I think "non-apology" is pretty fair.  She doesn't even admit to Tom or to Anna or to anyone that she did what she did out of sheer spite.  I don't personally find the fact that she knows she's a bitch makes her any less of a bitch.

[Andorra]

Oh, it doesn't make her less of a bitch. But I love her anyway. 

[shipperx]

Because it's realistic that someone won't forgive your cruelty doesn't mean you don't owe an apology when you do something cruel. It just makes you either selfish or cowardly in avoiding doing so. It's also rather ridiculous that it's left to the injured party to extend the olive branch.

Also, there's a world of difference between being rude or being annoying and maliciously causing harm. If someone is rude to you, you ignore it or call it out, but in the end, it's just that and nothing more. It has no teeth. It's a matter of scale. Rudeness causes no harm.

It takes a rather breathtaking amount of ego centrism to face a sister who was publically humiliated and abandoned at the altar by her first fiancé and had her second fiancé violently murdered to then deliberately and blithely engineer the destruction of her new relationship out of annoyance ...solely for the satisfaction of doing so...because she was 'annoyed'??? Really? Who does that?

It shows a woeful lack of compassion, not just right then but for list of misfortunes spanning years. She was dumped at the altar and her last boyfriend was murdered. For Gods sake, a little compassion! To deliberately engineer a way to cause and witness another romantic implosion takes a laser-like bullying instinct.

That Mary then left it to Edith to extend an olive branch shows that Mary is behaving like a coward (and a selfish one at that) or that she is willfully oblivious to the sheer meanness of her actions. That or ...she really just doesn't care. None of those possibilities reflect well on Mary.

If the CS comes and Mary makes no efforts towards amends, then Edith should avoid Mary from here on out, because that's what you do with people who take delight in your misfortunes. Wish Mary the best in her marriage then run back to London, making Mary irrelevant to her life from here on out. That's the only way to deal with a relationship as toxic as this.

Edited November 12, 2015 by shipperx

[DeccaMitford]

I think part of the problem is that it's very difficult to credibly talk about the motivations of characters on a show that's as shoddily written as this one. As written, Mary is supposed to be acting out of deep pain in this episode, but her supposed turmoil over her relationship with Talbot (and that relationship itself) hadn't been conveyed to the audience, so I think a lot of the audience just...didn't pick up on the fact that Mary's feelings were hurt too. Because that hadn't been shown to us; she didn't seem hurt, she seemed pissed off. We saw one person who was inexplicably angry that a man who she (justifiably) told to leave finally took her at her word, and another person who was genuinely heart broken, when we were apparently supposed to see two hurt people hurting each other.

 

Way back in season one, Edith would frequently needle Mary about Matthew, and Mary would bite back (usually with a barb about Edith's appearance). I always found Mary's behavior in these episodes to be understandable and sympathetic, even as it was obnoxious, because it was coming out of real pain: love for Matthew, fear that he didn't want her, worry that she wasn't worthy of him, etc. I didn't see any of that pain here. I get I was supposed to, but I never believed that Mary was actually in love with Talbot or that he was all that in love with her. What I saw was a coldly angry woman destroying her sister's happiness with surgical precision. The foundation of the story was broken, so the house fell apart.

 

I'm imagining some alternate reality where a still alive Matthew left the house before breakfast never to return, leaving Mary alone and bereft, and Edith got ready to announce her marriage to a marquess that same morning. I expect that if that hypothetical scene happened in exactly the same way, it would have played very differently, and more people would have sympathy for Mary.

 

Edith was being a pill in that scene, no question. But what I saw was someone reacting to Mary's very ostentatious glowering, and pre-defending herself from a blow she knew was coming. And...she wasn't wrong to expect that blow, as we found out. That's part of the problem too: Edith comes to every interaction with Mary expecting Mary to be nasty and acting accordingly, and Mary nearly always delivers. It would be as if Edith came to dinner every day wearing a helmet, and announced that it was to protect herself when Mary punched her in the face, and Mary, annoyed at the way Edith perpetually plays the victim before anybody even does anything to her, responds by punching her in the face.

 

I see where Mary is coming from too. Everybody wishes they could say exactly what they think to the people who bug them, at least some of the time! But like...it's nothing to admire. Grownups don't act on that impulse. Mary's in her mid thirties with a child of her own for christ's sake. Appalling behavior having a reason doesn't make it not appalling.

[Avaleigh]

Because it's realistic that someone won't forgive your cruelty doesn't mean you don't owe an apology when you do something cruel. It just makes you either selfish or cowardly in avoiding doing so. It's also rather ridiculous that it's left to the injured party to extend the olive branch.

Also, there's a world of difference between being rude or being annoying and maliciously causing harm. If someone is rude to you, you ignore it or call it out, but in the end, it's just that and nothing more. It has no teeth. It's a matter of scale. Rudeness causes no harm.

It takes a rather breathtaking amount of ego centrism to face a sister who was publically humiliated and abandoned at the altar by her first fiancé and had her second fiancé violently murdered to then deliberately and blithely engineer the destruction of her new relationship out of annoyance ...solely for the satisfaction of doing so...because she was 'annoyed'??? Really? Who does that?

It shows a woeful lack of compassion, not just right then but for list of misfortunes spanning years. She was dumped at the altar and her last boyfriend was murdered. For Gods sake, a little compassion! To deliberately engineer a way to cause and witness another romantic implosion takes a laser-like bullying instinct.

That Mary then left it to Edith to extend an olive branch shows that Mary is behaving like a coward (and a selfish one at that) or that she is willfully oblivious to the sheer meanness of her actions. That or ...she really just doesn't care. None of those possibilities reflect well on Mary.

If the CS comes and Mary makes no efforts towards amends, then Edith should avoid Mary from here on out, because that's what you do with people who take delight in your misfortunes. Wish Mary the best in her marriage then run back to London, making Mary irrelevant to her life from here on out. That's the only way to deal with a relationship as toxic as this.

It's not like Edith has every apologized to Mary for any of her past maliciousness. The sisters are no different in this regard.

Furthermore, I don't think Edith wants or needs Mary to make another apology/non apology when it seems like they already understand each other perfectly.

Again, I agree that Mary's behavior was appalling. My objection was to the idea that Mary dropped the bombshell about Marigold because poor innocent Edith was simply daring to breathe. That wasn't what I saw happen at all. Most of the time Edith snipes first (she simply can't help herself just as Mary can't) and then gets all sad and hurt when Mary gives it back to her even worse. It's a pattern that shows up in every single season and this one was no different.

ETA:

The same can be said about Edith. She's in her thirties, she has a child, and she still can't give the rivalry a rest.

Edited November 12, 2015 by Avaleigh

[vesperholly]

Ultimately, I thought Edith and Bertie both made it clear that Mary isn't the reason they aren't currently engaged at this point in the story

 

Rubbish. They're just too good to blame her, even though she is exactly the reason. At some point, Edith would have had a private conversation with Bertie about Marigold. If he then chose to break it off, it certainly would be down to Edith. But a large part of his reasoning was the delivery - Mary broke the news in a cruel way, rather than Edith telling him. If Mary had just let Edith do it on her own schedule, it would have been a much less painful and humiliating way to learn about it.

 

And I also disagree that Edith forgave Mary. Yes, she returned for the wedding and tried to smooth over the situation, but it seemed more out of obligation than actual absolution.

[Andorra]

 

At some point, Edith would have had a private conversation with Bertie about Marigold.At some point, Edith would have had a private conversation with Bertie about Marigold.

 

But fact is we don't know that for sure and they don't know it for sure. She had many opportunities to tell him before Mary blurted it out and she didn't find the courage to do so. 

Everyone told her she must tell him and yet she didn't. Cora even said she was thinking about telling him herself!

 

So I think Edith knows that,of course Mary was to blame here, but she also knows that part of the blame lies on her shoulders, because she didn't speak out when she had the opportunity and she even got engaged to him without telling him. That was clearly a mistake and a betrayal no matter what Mary did later. 

[DeccaMitford]

 

Most of the time Edith snipes first (she simply can't help herself just as Mary can't) and then gets all sad and hurt when Mary gives it back to her even worse. It's a pattern that shows up in every single season and this one was no different.

 

I...don't see this. Like, even a little bit. Sometimes Edith snipes first (though I think just as often she's responding to Mary's silent glares or eyerolls, as she was in the breakfast scene in this episode). I remember more times when Edith said something completely innocuous and Mary responded with vitriol or contempt. Like the scene in Robert's bedroom after the open house, or when Edith mentioned that she liked the restaurant Mary was going to and Mary accused her of ruining everyone's good mood with her gloom. Or when Edith on her way to meet Bertie said, rather coyly, "it's not a date," and Mary laughed and said "of course not." Or when Edith dared to ask that Mary show some respect for the fact that her boyfriend's body was found, could Mary please not demand a smile from Edith over her new haircut, and was told "you always ruin everything." Or telling Edith she's an idiot when a fire accidentally starts in Edith's room and Edith could have died.

 

And it isn't only the way Mary talks to Edith, it's the way she talks about her to other people. Calling Edith stupid, calling Edith pathetic, calling Edith ugly, calling Edith over-dramatic, calling Edith boring, saying how she can't stand Edith, responding to Edith's disappearance to London in season five with "who cares". It's constant. When has Edith talked about Mary like that? When she does talk about her, it's usually to say pretty simply that Mary isn't nice to her and they don't like each other.

Edited November 12, 2015 by DeccaMitford

[shipperx]

I'm sorry but equating Edith's and Mary's behavior in that scene just won't work for me. There was a vast difference in scale.

Sometimes we just see things differently and see characters differently. There's a host of reasons why, but people come away with different impressions. That's fair. It's only TV and it's okay for multiple opinions.

I...don't see this. Like, even a little bit. Sometimes Edith snipes first (though I think just as often she's responding to Mary's silent glares or eyerolls, as she was in the breakfast scene in this episode). I remember more times when Edith said something completely innocuous and Mary responded with vitriol

And I have to say my view more aligns with this. I liked the helmet analogy above. Edith is always expecting the hit and occasionally (1 time in 20 or such) she strikes out because of it (centainly no one else is going to intervene which has happened so rarely--and so ineffectually delicately-- as to be notable on their occurrence of, what, four times in the decade covered by the show?)

I suppose Edith could be a complete doormat and never strike back--ever--but that seems to leave her between a rock and a hard place. She's hated for being 'victim' and she's hated for striking back. Lose/lose. And until she inherited from Gregson, she didn't have the means to break away, and all social mores of the time forbade an unmarried woman from doing so anyway.

It's not paranoia when someone is really is apt to strike you. And when you're left being accused of 'playing victim' or 'being shrew' as the characterization of any response you might actually have, you're in a no win situation. Jmho.

Edited November 12, 2015 by shipperx

[DeccaMitford]

 

Sometimes we just see things differently and see characters differently. There's a host of reasons why, but people come away with different impressions. That's fair. It's only TV and it's okay for multiple opinions.

True and important to remember. And I will totally cop to the fact that I was a middle child, so I side with other middle child characters reflexively. I am biased in middle children's favor! I side with Edmund in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, even before he's redeemed! And Edith is SUCH a middle child, she ticks off every cliche about us on the list.

 

Ultimately Downton Abbey is a poorly written soap opera about over-privileged, mostly self-involved people. Sybil was the only one of the three of them I'd actually want to be friends with, which is probably why she was also the most boring of the sisters to watch as far as I'm concerned.

[Hecate7]

Does Edith actually know about Mary's dalliance with Gillingham? It was pretty hush-hush at the time (didn't only Anna know?), and I doubt Mary told her about it afterwards, even during the lame blackmail attempt by the chambermaid, so she might not even be aware of it. I don't remember.

 

Mary wouldn't have told her, not ever. Why should she? It's none of Edith's business. And maybe Edith doesn't know, but even if she did know, I don't think she'd have told Talbot. She's got her own life and her own worries now, and the skeletons in Mary's closet aren't important to her anymore.

 

I was an oldest child, but I don't see equivalence here at all between Edith's and Mary's behavior. Mary is constantly belittling Edith. It never stops. She never has a positive thing to say, to her, or about her. No matter what Edith says, Mary's response will be cruel and belittling. Honestly, Mary is like the stepmother in Cinderella to Edith--she is nothing but abusive and mean, and I think the reason we never see it escalate into physical abuse is that they're adults and Mary cares about etiquette, but I'm sure that when they were little and Mary could get away with it, it was always Edith's dolls being thrown into the fire or Edith's hair being yanked out.

 

Early on Mary was constantly reminding Edith and everyone else that Edith was going to be a spinster, and so the Strallam thing was pure cruelty, whereas Edith's nasty little letter-writing was really more about sanctimonious prudery and a desire to set the record straight about who's a good girl and who's a bad one. Mary IS a bad girl, and a bully, and a basically cruel person at heart, while Edith is basically kind but occasionally sort of stupid. Edith has outgrown the self-righteousness that made her write that letter, and she's learned not to care what Mary says or thinks, which is vital for her if she's going to survive at all. The same cannot be said for Mary. Edith was never a threat to her, and it would have cost Mary nothing to simply be good to her. But Mary just didn't have it in her, and she's at least honest enough to admit that she never will, no matter how many times Edith asks.

 

The healthy thing would be for Edith, as soon as she has the means, to get as far away from her so-called "family" as she can.

 

Also I'm waiting to find out that Mary is actually Carson's daughter.

Edited November 12, 2015 by Hecate7

[Free]

It's not paranoia when someone is really is apt to strike you. And when you're left being accused of 'playing victim' or 'being shrew' as the characterization of any response you might actually have, you're in a no win situation. Jmho.

 

Agreed, it's either victim blaming or trying to equate them so Edith 'deserves it'.  Fellowes made this as 1 sided as possible.

[saki]

I had a long post about why the Mary romance fell flat involving the fact that they're somewhat repetitious : guy meets Mary, falls inexplicably madly in love with her and the story is whether or not she'll accept him, but somewhere in that I realized that's the symptom not the disease.

Fellowes wrote better for Edith/Bertie because he felt he had to convince the audience of why anyone would want her.

On the other hand, Fellowes loves Mary so much he takes it as a given that the men fall for her at the drop of a hat and thus Fellowes expends little to no energy in showing us why the characters might fit one another. It's always about whether Mary considers the man an acceptable consort--which is exactly what Fellowes wrote.

The problem may be that Fellowes loves Mary so much that he expends little effort in showing why love interest {insert number here} does. In his mind, they love her because --duh. Of course they do. She's Mary and she's awesome!

 

I think this is exactly right.  Mary's romances are ridiculously over the top - the worst example of this is Evelyn Napier who is apparently, a decade later, still pining for her after seeing her for a handful of hours over the years.  Similarly, Talbot, Gillingham, Blake, Matthew, etc, etc.  It doesn't work - it's not convincing that men fall in love with her so quickly without really getting to know her (although, I would argue that they'd be even less likely to love her after knowing her better) and it's just really dull, narrative-wise.  I would have liked to have seen Mary chase a man more, be in doubt over whether he likes her, work to impress him, not have every eligible man in London chase her for no obvious reason.

 

On the other hand, Edith and Bertie was played so well - Bertie shows some interest in the Christmas special but a believable "I'd like to dance with you" kind of interest, not love at first sight, and then it develops at a more reasonable pace.

[Free]

I think this is exactly right.  Mary's romances are ridiculously over the top - the worst example of this is Evelyn Napier who is apparently, a decade later, still pining for her after seeing her for a handful of hours over the years.  Similarly, Talbot, Gillingham, Blake, Matthew, etc, etc.  It doesn't work - it's not convincing that men fall in love with her so quickly without really getting to know her (although, I would argue that they'd be even less likely to love her after knowing her better) and it's just really dull, narrative-wise.  I would have liked to have seen Mary chase a man more, be in doubt over whether he likes her, work to impress him, not have every eligible man in London chase her for no obvious reason.

 

Agreed, having a revolving door of suitors only to push her towards the last one left isn't interesting at all.

[vesperholly]

I think this is exactly right.  Mary's romances are ridiculously over the top - the worst example of this is Evelyn Napier who is apparently, a decade later, still pining for her after seeing her for a handful of hours over the years.  Similarly, Talbot, Gillingham, Blake, Matthew, etc, etc.  It doesn't work - it's not convincing that men fall in love with her so quickly without really getting to know her (although, I would argue that they'd be even less likely to love her after knowing her better) and it's just really dull, narrative-wise.  I would have liked to have seen Mary chase a man more, be in doubt over whether he likes her, work to impress him, not have every eligible man in London chase her for no obvious reason.

 

I couldn't agree more. Mary isn't even that much of a catch - a widow in her early 30s with a child in a time where the ranks of young men were decimated from WWI and they had their pick of women. And that child, not her, is the heir of Downton Abbey, so she wants to stay there to raise him. No independent wealth of her own and tied to her family's estate. She's beautiful and the daughter of an Earl, but that's about it.

[DianeDobbler]

I was also wondering what Mary had on offer really. Edith appears to be more genuinely warm and natural in ways that would extend to her intimate life. Edith has genuine sense of humor, and because of her work, a fairly wide frame of reference and understanding of what goes on in the world. Sybil did too, differently - Sybil understood changing times and politics, but in her own way Edith is plugged in. Her life isn't her own aristocratic set and then the serving class, as the case with Mary.  She works alongside career types, such as her editor -  a whole different part of the population. Mary's big adventure was sending her personal maid off to purchase birth control (to the maid's initial great discomfort) and then lodging in a hotel with a suitor for a few days. Edith is much more competent about getting around and doing for herself, even as a woman of means. I guess my point is, what the HELL would Mary and a husband discuss except Mary? Every conversation is almost always about Mary.When Bertie told Edith that Michael's apartment was the most sophisticated space he'd ever been in, Edith knew what he meant and you knew she'd learned some of Michael's taste, why it worked. 

 

I think a man would be bored unto death with Mary. 

[sark1624]

One of the reasons that i think that the "love prospects" of Mary were boring is because in the conversations never is a discussion about anything else besides Mary itselfs and her goals, even more, we never saw, even with Matthew that Mary told to one of her numerous suitors that he is good in something or encourage him to something or he has some good values. She has tell that to Tom, but in her dates with her suitors always has the actitute: "now, its your turn, what do you have to offer me? is that you best witty frase to charm me?" In conclusion she tries to intimidates other men and the only who dont result intimidated are the ones who are practically bullies like Carlisle and to some extent Talbot. 

 

Edith and Bertie on the other hand, and because Bertie low esteem on himself, Edith has kind words to him, telling him that he has good qualities and can do good things (when Bertie tol her about his new rol as a marquis) and it was funny when he finish the sentence saying that he biggest hope is not to be a failure in that rol. The sweet side that Matthew supposedly found on her i never saw in the show, she also was very harsh on him when they disagreed in some situation like the Swire´s money, how handle the future of the estate, the relation with Edith, etc. 

 

I admit that i prefer Edith, but i also would like a good history with Mary characther, the problem with E8 is, what we know about her relation with Talbot? i mean, any men who saw a conduct of Mary regarding the fight with Edith it will make think twice about start a relation with a woman with that actitute, but that side never was explored. The weddings of movies related to drunk couples in Las Vegas had been more complex that the resolution in the end of this episode. 

Edited November 13, 2015 by sark1624

[Badger]

Actually, the only time Thomas ever mentioned hating being in service was after the war was over.  Frankly, a lot of returning military back then were disenchanted and wanted to get away from what they had been doing before the war.  I think part of that was his being tired of being a footman but he's been promoted to temporary Senior Valet and now Underbutler so that's not an issue any more.

[SusanSunflower]

Don't get me started on the tendon damage that often results from "slit wrists" and his amazing accommodation to losing a thumb ....  It was worse back then, you know, before microsurgery ... 

[Andorra]

Weird. I can totally see why men fall for Mary and would die of boredom with Edith. She is just such a sour face all the time. I like Mary much more even though she has a really nasty side. But with Mary you could fight and yell and she wouldn't just burst into tears and be unhappy. I couldn't live with such a soft cushion as Edith, I would probably kill her. 

[MissLucas]

Well I can't speak for 'mankind' but I sure as hell would not like to spend even afternoon tea with Lady Mary. Not because she's a nasty piece of work but because I suspect every topic I find interesting would be beneath her or 'vulgar' - has she ever expressed an interest in politics, history, art or literature? I think pig husbandry may be the only topic she was ever shown to be keen to learn about - which I find quite hilarious.

 

And even though the ice-queen act is very attractive - that every man around her immediately falls in love with her has always been ridiculous. Maybe she's got magic pheromones. But Lady Mary being ignored by a guy she has deemed worthy of her attention would have been way more interesting (and funny) than the boring round dance of interchangeable suitors we ended up with.

 

I haven't seen anything on-screen to convince me that the Henry-Mary relationship is based on anything beyond sexual attraction (and even that's a stretch). And as we all know from Jane Austen that's not a solid foundation for marriage.

 

Edith always had to fight to get anyone's attention and she has learned to offer people more than just an icy demeanor with a vague promise of lava-like passion bubbling underneath (which would never have worked for her anyway). So even with her wet blanket tendencies she's ultimately the better match than her sister. At least for a man looking for more than a trophy wife. Not that JF would agree.

[shipperx]

Weird. I can totally see why men fall for Mary and would die of boredom with Edith. She is just such a sour face all the time. I like Mary much more even though she has a really nasty side. But with Mary you could fight and yell and she wouldn't just burst into tears and be unhappy. I couldn't live with such a soft cushion as Edith, I would probably kill her.

Shows the difference in points of view. I was noting the other day when reading various articles about the finale that in all the accompanying photos Mary had a bitch face glare in all of them. Regardless of the scene it was snapped from. It actually began to amuse me. It must be Dockery's standard Mary mode because the character was constantly glowering. I guess one persons 'fierce' is another's 'overbearing'.

It's not that I find it impossible that some men fall for her. She is some men's type. The problem for the show is they had every guy that was brought in for her fall for her and put up with her making it 'are you worthy' pageants, often with little cause to tolerate her judging process.

Some guys fall for ice queens. Others run like hell. With this show they basically all fell and were willing to jump through hoops. Fellowes never seemed to think if given a shot at Mary that ANY man would think 'well, she's terribly high maintenance and apt to hector me over breakfast..."

Edited November 13, 2015 by shipperx

[DeccaMitford]

 

Fellowes never seemed to think if given a shot at Mary that ANY man would think 'well, she's terribly high maintenance and apt to hector me over breakfast..."

 

Or even just "I've got a life of my own, and am not too keen on moving in with her and her parents and her sister that she's constantly bickering with and her former brother in law who lives there too for some reason and who she treats more like a husband than she does me."

 

To be fair, by the end Blake was at that point and had essentially moved on from Mary's nonsense. I think he had the most real potential of the suitors, initially at least. He was unimpressed and she had to prove herself to him as much as he did to her. But all it took was one roll in the mud and he was as uncritically smitten as anyone else, and then it just fizzled out. They didn't have much physical chemistry, either.

 

At least they had serious conversations, which is more than you can really say for her and Henry.

[kpw801]

Shows the difference in points of view. I was noting the other day when reading various articles about the finale that in all the accompanying photos Mary had a bitch face glare in all of them. Regardless of the scene it was snapped from. It actually began to amuse me. It must be Dockery's standard Mary mode because the character was constantly glowering. I guess one persons 'fierce' is another's 'overbearing'.

It's not that I find it impossible that some men fall for her. She is some men's type. The problem for the show is they had every guy that was brought in for her fall for her and put up with her making it 'are you worthy' pageants, often with little cause to tolerate her judging process.

Some guys fall for ice queens. Others run like hell. With this show they basically all fell and were willing to jump through hoops. Fellowes never seemed to think if given a shot at Mary that ANY man would think 'well, she's terribly high maintenance and apt to hector me over breakfast..."

The problem for the show is they had every guy that was brought in for her fall for her and put up with her making it 'are you worthy' pageants, often with little cause to tolerate her judging process.

 

Yup!  Especially when they brought in Gillingham and Blake.  I remember after Roses coming out ball, Mary and Blake stood outside Grantham House in London and talked about "Let the games begin".  I mean who talks like that?  I can see men falling more for Rose than Mary.  She is not really witty.  And don't get me started on that stupid line she gave Gillingham, "I love you - in my cold unfeeling way..."  WHAT?!

 

It made more sense when just before Matthew showed up, that fortune hunting Duke was trying to get her.  The bloom has been off the rose for many months/years now.  I guess Julian Fellowes will ride on his own coattails after Gosford Park forever because his writing for Downton left a lot to be desired after the first season.

Edited November 13, 2015 by kpw801

[DianeDobbler]

I haven't really tracked all the hate Fellowes supposedly has for Dan Stevens, but I wonder if the uber Mary-centricity of post-Matthew Downton was Fellowes trying to prove that Mary/Matthew's success had been more Dockery than Stevens. He never really wrote another guy in his own right. Long arcs for other "upstairs" leads went down the toilet. All of Rose's romances were never meant to be long term, unlike Sybil's, for example, and when she did meet Mr. Right they rushed it through and her off the show. It wasn't a real story. And we all know what happened to Greggson. The show was always a lot Mary-centric, but there were longer term stories that were explored, and that disappeared once Stevens left.

 

Weird. I can totally see why men fall for Mary and would die of boredom with Edith. She is just such a sour face all the time. I like Mary much more even though she has a really nasty side. But with Mary you could fight and yell and she wouldn't just burst into tears and be unhappy. I couldn't live with such a soft cushion as Edith, I would probably kill her.

 

Respectfully disagree, that doesn't describe Edith in either of her relationships (Bertie and Greggson) - nor with Stallan either, once they were actually courting. Nor does it describe how she is at her newspaper, with her colleagues there. In her relationships with Michael Greggson and with Bertie, they were engaged with the world. Conversation was easy. I don't recall her bursting into tears or being unhappy in those relationships, nor a sour face all the time. Mary, OTOH, is absolutely glacially stone-faced much of the time, and the occasions when she actually did have passionate engagement such as you describe, I can count on one hand. Edith has had to fight for attention from her family, absolutely true, although this season she appeared to have given that up, which, naturally, made her family more interested. But, apart from Stallan, which was ... 12 years ago ... she was pursued by her two major beaus, and she was the one who was cautious.

 

ETA:

i mean, any men who saw a conduct of Mary regarding the fight with Edith it will make think twice about start a relation with a woman with that actitute, but that side never was explored.

Really good point. What Mary did, with calculation and venom, ignoring even her bff Tom, was prompted by a wounded ego. There's nothing to tell a suitor she wouldn't do that to him. Of course, Talbot wasn't there to see it, but Talbot has his own poisonous attributes - he's a stalkery creep.

Edited November 13, 2015 by DianeDobbler

[Free]

I haven't really tracked all the hate Fellowes supposedly has for Dan Stevens, but I wonder if the uber Mary-centricity of post-Matthew Downton was Fellowes trying to prove that Mary/Matthew's success had been more Dockery than Stevens. He never really wrote another guy in his own right. Long arcs for other "upstairs" leads went down the toilet. All of Rose's romances were never meant to be long term, unlike Sybil's, for example, and when she did meet Mr. Right they rushed it through and her off the show. It wasn't a real story. And we all know what happened to Greggson. The show was always a lot Mary-centric, but there were longer term stories that were explored, and that disappeared once Stevens left.

 

Agreed, imo, that's when it creatively suffered.

[DeccaMitford]

 

I haven't really tracked all the hate Fellowes supposedly has for Dan Stevens, but I wonder if the uber Mary-centricity of post-Matthew Downton was Fellowes trying to prove that Mary/Matthew's success had been more Dockery than Stevens.

I think that may be part of it, but I think too he wanted Mary's next love interest to be very much not a clone of Matthew. Which I understand, but I think he lost sight of the fact that what made the two of them interesting was the distinction between them: Matthew's easygoing, genial good humor provided a balance to Mary's cool reserve. He brought her down closer to earth, and she classed him up a bit. Even looks-wise, they were attractive in different ways. Her icy patrician beauty made a nice visual contrast with his more unassuming, baby-faced handsomeness.

 

Allen Leech brings a lot of similar qualities to the role of Branson, and he's handsome in a similar sort of way to Dan Stevens, so it doesn't surprise me that Mary had more (apparently accidental) chemistry with him than with her eventual second husband. I never expected Mary and Tom to get together, but Leech and Dockery had a very easy, natural rapport that I think it's impossible not to notice.

 

All of the suitors were instead variations on a theme, and the theme seemed to be "male Mary" (apart from poor Evelyn Napier I guess, who was never really in the running, so I don't count him).Tony had the same sort of dark, pale beauty and aristocratic bearing. Blake was similarly clever, arrogant, and dryly funny, with a buried softer side. And Henry, from what we can tell of him, takes the cake. He's attractive in the same style as her, and is similarly reserved and regal in his bearing. For all that he's just a race car driver, Matthew Goode plays him like he was born to the manor.

 

I can buy Mary being interested in a male version of herself, but it doesn't make for as interesting viewing.

[Andorra]

Well, tastes are different. But when I think of Edith I think of the opening scene in the last episode when she had just received a marriage proposal from the man she loved and she was still moaning and lamenting. "Am I happy now?" Well, yes, you could be, if you got your arse up and told Bertie about Marigold! Why haven't you?? It doesn't get better if you just let things happen and not do something!

 

That's what annoys me about her. She is SO passive. Yes, she has bad luck all the time and she tries, but she is just a depressing personality for me. Also it annoyed me that she fell in love with every single man who gave her a little bit of attention. Strallan, the farmer, again Strallan, Gregson and now Pelham. And if it wouldn't work out with Pelham, I'm sure she would fall in love again easily with the next man who likes her. 

 

No, no. I'd take the bitch over the sad one every single day. Life would be more awful, but definitely more interesting.

 

But I agree that it is ridiculous that every single man in England lusted after Lady Mary. I found that terribly written, too. 

[Free]

I can buy Mary being interested in a male version of herself, but it doesn't make for as interesting viewing.

 

Agreed, just a bland LI that wasn't properly fleshed out when Fellowes should've had enough time to do that.