S15.E12: Showcase #2: Judges Vote

[kili]

Though I did think Avalon looked a bit silly next to Ruben who was in a suit, overall I don't give a rip what she wears.

 

On the fashion subject, it was kind of interesting that she was paired with Ruben. Ruben built a brand and fan base on the show by always wearing the same t-shirt each week. He varied the colour, but it was always a shirt emblazoned with his local area code that his friend  had made (he paired them with non-descript pants). He wore that same non-stylish, casual outfit for weeks on end and it didn't prevent him from winning. Eventually, near the end (when he ran out of different colours to wear?) he did start wearing more stylish outfits.

[TeeMo]

On the fashion subject, it was kind of interesting that she was paired with Ruben. Ruben built a brand and fan base on the show by always wearing the same t-shirt each week. He varied the colour, but it was always a shirt emblazoned with his local area code that his friend had made (he paired them with non-descript pants). He wore that same non-stylish, casual outfit for weeks on end and it didn't prevent him from winning. Eventually, near the end (when he ran out of different colours to wear?) he did start wearing more stylish outfits.

That is a great point. They even showed him in that casual outfit in their flashback clip. I forgot about his area code shirts!

[Neet]

The way I see it, much of the dislike of Avalon's dressing down stems from people thinking she's playing a gimmick. (whether that's fed to her by the producers, or her own doing) Kind of similar to Jax last year wearing an X made of tape on her face and the emo clothing, it all looked fake. Personally, I don't really care about the way Avalon dresses and it'd be nice if "I don't wear dresses" could quit being used as a personality trait, though I do agree that she would benefit from dressing better while still keeping her style intact.

I'm painfully sick of the shrugging off of accountability regarding this supposed backlash she's getting for not dressing like the other girls. Are people really saying this online? Have the judges told her she looks like a slob? All I've noticed are hypothetical "I think people think this" statements on this forum, though I could be wrong. You know why Avalon dresses in streetwear? Because she likes it. Why are the other girls wearing dresses? Probably because they enjoy doing so. Any supposed expectation for women to look so dolled up continues probably because they purposely do so, oftentimes claiming to love wearing complex clothing and makeup. How that ends up being somebody else's fault for "forcing them" is beyond me, but whatever, people love to be victimized. Makeup is such a huge industry because millions of women enjoy supporting it. Dressing so elaborately is their own choice, usually not some societal boogeyman out to get them, though most criticism for women not dressing a certain way actually comes from other women. A great deal of Idol commentary I see online includes women critiquing someone's hair, shoes, clothing, etc.. in addition to, or even instead of their thoughts on a performance. On that note, I wonder what the rest of the girls on the show think about Avalon's style, if they're silently judging her for not conforming or if they wish they could tone down their own effort on appearance.

Why could Phillip Phillips dress like shit and get little to no criticism? My guess is that the same girls who trash talk female contestants for "looking tacky" or whatever also thought Phil was hot and voted for him based on that. He also wasn't surrounded by guys who wore three layer suits to perform, which made his boring clothes (and lack of eye shadow) blend in with everyone else. This is contrary to Avalon being surrounded by girls who dress like they're going to prom, clearly making her stand out and get attention for looking different. Phil was also somewhat of a rocker, and that genre usually advocates its members to look dirty. Try picturing Sonika wearing ripped jeans and a plaid shirt while singing her usual ballads, it doesn't work. Her pageant style of dressing actually compliments her song choices.

At least outside of the internet, I remember Adam Lambert catching a lot of flack for dressing the way he did. It's not just a female thing, though women generally care a lot more about how other women dress. Jennifer Lopez always criticizes the girls (or compliments them) for how they look, which is no surprise coming from someone who is essentially only famous from being beautiful. Not much else, since she's generally been a pain in the ass to listen to for her whole Idol tenure. Anyone who doesn't dress like the majority of their gender is going to be taken notice of, whether they receive admiration or criticism. Despite taking so much time to write this post, I really think this is a non-issue. I do find Jeneve's Amish outfit and La'Porsha's foam insulation hair to be a lot more worthy of commentary than Avalon wearing skate clothing, at least most people find the former completely ridiculous.

I'm not even a fan of Avalon, as I think her voice is a little too laid back to get into, though it at least feels like she's giving a concert-like performance while moving around the stage. Her voice fits her style, and even if the producers are driving home the whole tomboy thing, she appears fairly genuine and is giving what you can expect to see if she won. (though she won't) Several of the other contestants look completely lost and like they couldn't entertain a crowd outside of the American Idol box if they tried.

[bluepiano]

I might have put in Stephany over Jeneve though. I think it’s incredibly interesting that so many people think Stephany should have gone through, yet she is very similar to a lot of the pageant bot types that get put through on every season (think Pia Toscano types) that viewers always complain about only being there for looks. I think if Stephany had gotten through this year that’s exactly what viewers would be saying about her. I think she’s a talented vocalist and has all the makings of a pop star but I agree with those who say she lacks any kind of emotional depth. Still, I think she is more deserving than Jeneve. Jeneve just reminds me of a joke contestant.

 

I don't see Stephany as a pageant bot. She has beauty pageant looks, but I think she sings with more feeling and passion than some of those who have been called bots. And if she had gotten through, my guess would be that many people would've appreciated her maturity and professionalism, in contrast to these young girls who are so obviously not even close to ready.

 

It doesn't matter anymore, but TPTB put another nail in the coffin of this show with their youth obsession. Clearly the story line is, it's the last year of Idol, so we have to make it all about this kids who just squeaked in under the wire to have their chance at being American Idol. As if anyone really cares about that? I think that in the final season, most people would've preferred seeing the best contestants available. We obviously did not get that.

[sleepyjean]

Neet, I will admit that I read that three times through and your argument escapes me. I'm not I'm not throwing shade, I just want to understand the point you are trying to make in those first 5-6 sentences.

 

What do you mean by "shrugging off of accountability regarding this supposed backlash she's getting"?

 

The backlash against Avalon's current appearance seems real enough. The past couple of pages on this forum bear that out. Whether she's doing it to be different, because she doesn't care, or because she's not savvy enough to realize that personal appearance affects the way she is perceived (and in this case, they way people will vote), the general impression here seems to be that she could put a little more attention into her grooming. Not that she needs to wear a dress, but that she should wear things that are better quality, better fitting, and more polished-looking. I don't think that's supposed backlash, I think that's the actual backlash, right there.

 

As for accountability, you lost me. Who is shrugging it off? Avalon? Society? Us? Are you saying that Avalon is accountable for her style but is saying that she is not? Or that someone here is saying that she is not? I didn't pick up on that at all. As far as I recall, everyone seems to recognize that her wardrobe is her choice. Nobody is forcing her to dress the way she does, and nobody is trying to make her change to conform. I think that's what you meant about the contestants who are ultra-girly. They aren't being forced anymore than Avalon is.

 

Again, I'm not calling you out, just trying to follow your logic. 

 

I do have to disagree in one area. You said of Avalon "Her voice fits her style" and I couldn't disagree more. To me, she has a very girly-pop, prettyish voice, which is totally at odds with her physical appearance. I believe she alluded to as much during her first audition, when she said people do not expect her to sound the way she sounds because of the way she looks.

Edited February 16, 2016 by sleepyjean

[Neet]

sleepyjean, I admittedly made that part of the post a nightmare to read. I was going to edit it right after posting, but had to leave. I was partially replying to Tosia, although I didn't quote their post because what I said isn't necessarily a direct reply to them.

The first part of my last post was more directed to the idea of why there could be any outrage about Avalon being told to dress better. I'm not saying there's no criticism towards her appearance on here, I'm challenging the complaint that the guys are immune from protest about how they dress and Avalon isn't due to a gender conspiracy or something. I agree with the consensus that she can pick out better clothes and keep her streetwear style intact, there's no argument from me there.

It seems like discussion about how she dresses veered off into talk about how the Idol guys/men in general aren't expected to dress up as much, and the Idol guys are less likely to get criticized for wearing things Avalon would wear. I'm arguing that women are the ones enforcing much of that belief, as they encourage themselves and each other to wear makeup and other such things. (in general, of course) Despite this, they'll sometimes act like they don't have a hand in how they look and are forced to go along with it. On the other side of the coin, while women are expected to dress better, at least they aren't faulted for completely altering their looks with makeup and other things, whereas men can't really "cheat" to look better. It all boils down to personal opinion, I guess.

Also, thinking about it more, the guys on Idol in the past have had a tendency to look like crap. I wouldn't be opposed to them putting more effort in, although I've never really cared. Phillip would have looked good in a garbage bag, whereas someone like Heejun would look goofy even in a tailored suit. I suspect that's why Phil dodged a lot of criticism for his boring shirts. I'd rather the contestants carve out a signature look for themselves and appear interesting (like Dalton, he has a unique style and is also good looking) instead of do what they think is expected.

Regarding Avalon's voice fitting her style, I was pinning that on her singing "Love Yourself" by Justin Bieber a while ago. I didn't really like it, but I thought it fit her aesthetic pretty well, even though I do remember her saying her voice didn't match her looks.

[BogoGog24]

There's no guys I can recall from this year that have really poor styling. I'm not really a fan of Thomas with his suspenders but at least it's a style that is being worn currently by bands like 5SOS and 1D. I don't like Mac's chunky sneakers with his skinny pants and think it looks goofy, but again, it's a style. I think Lee Jean dresses fine, but maybe would like to see him lose the baseball hat. Trent overall has a put together look, even though I don't really like the hats and scarves. Manny, CJ, Kory, etc. all dress pretty fine. Dalton has AMAZING style and a very clear put together look that perfectly matches his music and personality. Overall I don't see any of the men with serious styling issues like there are with a few of the women (Avalon, Jeneve, La'Porsha). Maybe that's why the men are not getting criticized?

I was going to mention that La'Porsha's hair during the Fantasia duet looked so horrible it made me laugh out loud in that turban thing.

[Guest]

I think there's some great points here.  Regarding the women choosing to dress this way, I do think that's true, but I also think the bar is being raised for women as for how much effort they can/should put in to look like a real star.  It's not just the heels are getting higher (and pricier), the makeup is often into full facial contouring (JLo included) that takes an artist a long time to create each day, hair is expensive extensions and wigs, eyelashes are usually fake, eyebrows are drawn on or filled in and gelled down, boobs are often fake, waists are 'trained' by corseting sometimes, severe foundation garments smooth every lump, etc.  Of course the older you are the further you're likely to go with it.  

 

I like the beauty and fashion industries and I like the makeover aspect of Idol.  But I also like when a contestant just says "no thanks" to it all.  

[perfectstorm]

Style is not going to be a deal breaker for Avalon - or any of the contestants.  She actually has a very good voice and has stage presence. 

 

The question then turns to personality.  I don't think she's unlikeable - but how strong is her likeability factor compared to the others?

[ari333]

Neet, I will admit that I read that three times through and your argument escapes me. I'm not I'm not throwing shade, I just want to understand the point you are trying to make in those first 5-6 sentences.

 

What do you mean by "shrugging off of accountability regarding this supposed backlash she's getting"?

 

The backlash against Avalon's current appearance seems real enough. The past couple of pages on this forum bear that out. Whether she's doing it to be different, because she doesn't care, or because she's not savvy enough to realize that personal appearance affects the way she is perceived (and in this case, they way people will vote), the general impression here seems to be that she could put a little more attention into her grooming. Not that she needs to wear a dress, but that she should wear things that are better quality, better fitting, and more polished-looking. I don't think that's supposed backlash, I think that's the actual backlash, right there.

 

As for accountability, you lost me. Who is shrugging it off? Avalon? Society? Us? Are you saying that Avalon is accountable for her style but is saying that she is not? Or that someone here is saying that she is not? I didn't pick up on that at all. As far as I recall, everyone seems to recognize that her wardrobe is her choice. Nobody is forcing her to dress the way she does, and nobody is trying to make her change to conform. I think that's what you meant about the contestants who are ultra-girly. They aren't being forced anymore than Avalon is.

 

Again, I'm not calling you out, just trying to follow your logic. 

 

I do have to disagree in one area. You said of Avalon "Her voice fits her style" and I couldn't disagree more. To me, she has a very girly-pop, prettyish voice, which is totally at odds with her physical appearance. I believe she alluded to as much during her first audition, when she said people do not expect her to sound the way she sounds because of the way she looks.

 

I was wondering the same thing.

[PamelaMaeSnap]

I'm going to just throw this out there because it might or might not be relevant to the convo ... re: Avalon's style (or lack thereof) and whole package outside the voice itself.

 

My daughter and I have watched AI together since Season 2, so we're going back a pretty long way here ... she's 25 now, so you can do the math (even if Jenna Renae can't). There was a dropoff for a bit when she wasn't watching it, while at college and then when she graduated and moved into an apartment where she opted to not have TV/cable (she had Hulu and that was it). But for her last year she came back to the fold and watches it religiously, albeit in California, with her boyfriend ... every Thursday and Friday morning on her drive to work she calls me so we can discuss amongst ourselves. 

 

My daughter was a music major in college (specifically songwriting with a performance focus in voice) and in fact had several college friends who were either Idol alum or future Idolistas, and now works in a non-performance facet of the business ...

 

She dissected pretty much every semifinalist (and is nowhere near as snarky as I am, so it was almost all positive or at least objective dissection) and is generally most drawn to the ones who she feels sing with passion and authenticity.

 

After watching the duets episode (she had missed it because her DVR didn't tape so I was giving her some tips on which ones to watch online), I mentioned that I was really surprised to realize that we had NOT discussed Avalon ... I would have thought she'd be a contestant my daughter would have really liked for many reasons (note: authenticity and passion, both of which I think Avalon has.)

 

Her answer? She continually forgot that she existed until she'd watch the show. She just found her really forgettable, good voice notwithstanding ... she didn't NOT like her. She just kept forgetting she even existed when she played back the show's performances and contestants in her mind.

 

And I can't help but think that my daughter is probably not the only person watching the show who feels that way. There may be some over the top people there, but they're memorable in their own way ... and I can't help but feel that being the girl with the good voice who seems to want to fade into the scenery can't be helping her if a fan who might normally be quite driven to someone with her style needs to be reminded that she even exists after watching every episode.

[proserpina65]

I don't think it's unpopular to like Nick at all, or any of the WGWGs.  They won because more people liked them than the others.  I think it's just that the sum of the other contestants' fans outnumber the winner's fans.  

 

I called Stephany "too pageant" upthread, too.   If I had to pick some favorite female vocalists, Pink would be in my top 5, too.  

It kinda is on some parts of the internet, and it has been on and off here.

[proserpina65]

After watching the duets episode (she had missed it because her DVR didn't tape so I was giving her some tips on which ones to watch online), I mentioned that I was really surprised to realize that we had NOT discussed Avalon ... I would have thought she'd be a contestant my daughter would have really liked for many reasons (note: authenticity and passion, both of which I think Avalon has.)

Her answer? She continually forgot that she existed until she'd watch the show. She just found her really forgettable, good voice notwithstanding ... she didn't NOT like her. She just kept forgetting she even existed when she played back the show's performances and contestants in her mind.

And I can't help but think that my daughter is probably not the only person watching the show who feels that way. There may be some over the top people there, but they're memorable in their own way ... and I can't help but feel that being the girl with the good voice who seems to want to fade into the scenery can't be helping her if a fan who might normally be quite driven to someone with her style needs to be reminded that she even exists after watching every episode.

 

I don't care one way or the other about Avalon's style, but she is the one who, when I was mentally reviewing what I thought of the week's shows, I kept forgetting.  Not because I didn't like her, but because her performances simply didn't arouse much of any reaction for me, either positive or negative.

[Phoebs]

Ruben! I could listen to him sing all day long. Fabulous.