S11.E13: Love Hurts

[Diane]

I watched 1 through half of 10 in a little over 3 weeks, I liked the binge better too. Not that I don't love it anyway, but waiting over the summer and week to week isn't as fun.

[MysteryGuest]

It didn't take all that long to get through the series.  Without commercials, each episode is only about 40 minutes, so you could easily watch 2 or 3 episodes a night, and more on the weekend.  I didn't expect to actually like the show, but the brother relationship drew me in.  And let's face it, the boys aren't exactly hard on the eyes!

[Diane]

It didn't take all that long to get through the series.  Without commercials, each episode is only about 40 minutes, so you could easily watch 2 or 3 episodes a night, and more on the weekend.  I didn't expect to actually like the show, but the brother relationship drew me in.  And let's face it, the boys aren't exactly hard on the eyes!

It's funny my son was watching it and I kept hearing the music and I would ask him what he was watching. I almost bee him off when he told me I should watch it, we do not have the same taste in tv, I love it more than he does. LOL.

[catrox14]

I started watching in 2013 and plowed through 1-8 in 4 months. twice. And started watching live in s9..

 

I have a problem

[Diane]

I started watching in 2013 and plowed through 1-8 in 4 months. twice. And started watching live in s9..

 

I have a problem

Pretty sure we all do, I have re-watched multiple times too.

[BlueMeanie]

Thanks for the welcome everyone!

 

I'm not sure if binge-watching makes it more cohesive, but I do think it made it easier for me to stick with the show even when it wasn't as good.  If I had been watching in real time, they may have lost me at some point, most likely season 8.  Also it's nice not having to wait between episodes.  The first three episodes this season I found to be mostly disappointing, so waiting for each new episode just got to be more and more unbearable, but then Baby was one of my favorite episodes of the series.  I usually don't start shows that haven't already completed their run, especially since I only watch online, but I'm in it now.

[SueB]

In resemble these remarks

[catrox14]

Pretty sure we all do, I have re-watched multiple times too.

 

Oh that was just my initial introduction into the show.

 

I have not watched all episodes 4 times...at least and some a number of times I'm ashamed to admit....like First Born...and Lazarus Rising...

[BlueMeanie]

I started watching in June I think, not sure how long it took me to get through it the first time, but not long I don't think.  I re-watched a lot of it again shortly after finishing it the first time.  Then I re-watched all of it again between the beginning of December and the beginning of February.

 

Clearly, I've found my people.

[SueB]

*smishes BlueMeanie* WELCOME!

[SueB]

Houston Convention tidbits:

- The food gag during the hangover bit was an adlib. So was the rock, paper, scissors!  At the end Dean was so thrilled, he didn't care that he didn't get to go upstairs.

 

So, that explains why the rock, paper, scissors thing wasn't for something "big".  And why it wasn't 100% clear what they were playing for.  

I'm so very glad they did that, it worked perfectly to show it's still the little things that matter to the boys. It also means it's no alternate universe indicator (although that was way out there on the possibility list).

 

I must admit, I got the impression they might have needed to stretch for time for this script and that allowed for more messing around.  

[Omegamom]

Hi, BlueMeanie!

Another introduced to the madness via Netflix binge-watching. I bw'ed 1-9 last spring, then iTuned season 10, and only got into real time towards the end. Then I had to suffer my first Hellatus over the summer, ugh. It hangs together very nicely as a binge. And, yes, I have watched the whole thing through more than once, and some episodes multiple times.

[FlickChick]

Thanks guys, for all your input. I had a feeling that there might have been an advantage to binge watching. Alas, too late for me. ;) I think that Netflix has added many a viewer to our little show along with TNT. It's no wonder it keeps chugging along.

[MysteryGuest]

Yes, I wonder what will happen when CBS pulls all of their programming from Netflix and Hulu.  I have no idea when their contract expires with Netflix, but I have to think it's soon.  Part of me thinks CBS is shooting themselves in the foot by making people pay for yet another subscription.  I almost want it to backfire on them, because I see it as just greed on their part.  It isn't as if they're not paid by the other outlets to run their programs.  I'm sure more and more networks will try the same thing, but eventually people are going to stop subscribing.  It will become cost-prohibitive, just like everything else. 

[catrox14]

This sounds more hopeful than anything I've heard lately.

 

I found this from Jan 19

 

http://variety.com/2016/digital/news/netflix-in-talks-to-renew-the-cw-deal-with-warner-bros-cbs-1201683318/

 

The CW series currently on Netflix will remain on the streaming service through the run of those shows, Sarandos noted. “It’s not like we’re going to wake up one day without the programming,” he said.

 

So I'm thinking even if they move away in the future, it's sounds like whilst the shows are airing on the CW they'll be on Netflix.

Edited February 15, 2016 by catrox14

[MysteryGuest]

That's interesting, and contradicts the article I had read a few months ago stating that when their Netflix contract expires, all CBS programming will be pulled.  Maybe they've changed their minds.  I have no idea just how a network gets paid when people stream their programming from places like Netflix, but they have to be making a decent amount of money from the rabid SPN followers.  Why cut off that revenue stream on the hopes that people will follow the show wherever you take it?  I hope this latest article is correct.

[catrox14]

That's interesting, and contradicts the article I had read a few months ago stating that when their Netflix contract expires, all CBS programming will be pulled.  Maybe they've changed their minds.  I have no idea just how a network gets paid when people stream their programming from places like Netflix, but they have to be making a decent amount of money from the rabid SPN followers.  Why cut off that revenue stream on the hopes that people will follow the show wherever you take it?  I hope this latest article is correct.

 

 

Yeah I wonder if a lot of the negativity was just negotiating/posturing. /fingers crossed!

[Myrelle]

I just watched this one. I put it off because of all I'd heard and read about the last scene, but I also read that Jensen Ackles rocked this episode like nobody's business and that won out for me and how true it was. This episode reminded me a lot of On the Head of a Pin. I only hope that Dean's struggle regarding the darkness and the light within himself  and within his own mind will not be tossed aside or forgotten this time around and as it was after that S5 episode, IMO. Or that the answer to his own feelings and thoughts on that duality within himself will not be presented to us in the overly simplistic form of yet and just another Suck It Up, Boo Hoo, Princess, and/or Just Go Save Your Baby Brother speech. I want to have a ringside seat to Dean grappling with the darkness inside himself this time. And I eventually want to see him triumph over his darker aspect, himself. What I don't want is for Dean's storyline to just be dropped in favor of Sam's again. We just had that as recently as the first half of this season, IMO.

 

I really liked this episode, tbh. I loved Dean kissing the victim to save her from the baddie. Loved that he finally won at Rock, Paper, Scissors-his reaction was Epic. So. Much. Love. for that. His scene with Fake Amara was terrific too. The end of that scene where he was holding on to his heart and his reaction to Sam's return had me cheering for the Ackting and then we got the last scene. It is not love or desire that draws him to Amara. The way he said that, the bone-weariness with which he said that makes me believe that it is peace she offers him-a truer peace than even God could offer him, at least in his own mind. If only they won't drop this Dean sl or turn it into Sam's as they did in the Apocalypse sl. As ever on this show, the resolution will make it or break it. History gives us reason to fear, so one episode at a time is where I'm at now, and more than ever before. Hopefully tonight's episode will not crash/trash Dean's connection with The Darkness.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

• Dean does not have a Dad Bod.  What is wrong with those women in Ohio anyway?  ;)
• "schtupping"?  Is this a mid-west thing?  Sounds Yiddish to me, so can't figure out why both Dean and Sam would use the term.  (And I know what it means, from the in context use!  Lol!)  Just hadn't heard it before.
• Staci looked familiar.  And while she didn't deserve to die for being stupid and believing that what's his name would really leave his wife and yet getting involved with a married man in the first place, the real nasty part of me couldn't dredge up a lot of sentiment for her either.  
• The Kirin (sp?) was a neat new monster/witch tool.  
• I know I'm pretty dense sometimes.  :)  But I didn't notice the first time I watched it that Sam didn't realize Dean had been attacked in the basement until he saw all the holes in things.  

Overall, I enjoyed the ep.  It went by pretty quick.  Too quick.  The guys looked nice in their overcoats and Sam looked good in his white shirt stretched out on the couch.  Oh, and I caught a glimpse of the Green Cooler in the motel room.  I also like how they leave extra cash to cover damages of the room.  Not the first time I've seen them do it.  Just a nice, responsible gesture.  

[DittyDotDot]

6 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

"schtupping"?  Is this a mid-west thing?  Sounds Yiddish to me, so can't figure out why both Dean and Sam would use the term.  (And I know what it means, from the in context use!  Lol!)  Just hadn't heard it before.

Not Midwestern, as far as I know. I do believe it's origin is yiddish. I've heard it on TV before, but never heard anyone use it in real life that I can recall. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

On 2/11/2016 at 2:22 PM, AwesomO4000 said:

I have sometimes expressed in forums that I wished Sam would get more point of view sometimes and we'd see how Sam feels about things, but often got told that such things aren't important, because Sam has the mytharc. Or that we do get Sam's point of view, but I just don't like it (not true, I stand by my examples of the lack of Sam point of view sometimes). So I personally am enjoying having some Sam point of view here, myself. It's a nice change, in my opinion. But I don't think it necessarily makes the story all about Sam.

If Dean having the point of view sometimes doesn't make the story about Dean (as I've seen some suggest and get shot down for), then I think the same should be when Sam has the point of view sometimes and we see how the action is affecting him. But maybe I'm reading your meaning incorrectly.

 

On 2/11/2016 at 2:48 PM, Aeryn13 said:

I think what makes the story about Sam is the set-up for him to be the glorious Amara-killing hero. Also, his one-true-vessel status still matters because Lucifer was kept around and is apparently gonna be the big gun against Amara.

SOOOO much freakin' angst in the comments about this ep!  After the fact, it's pretty sad, actually.  Though I do have to agree about the lack of Sam POV in general and it's nice to get it, which doesn't necessarily make the entire story about Sam.  

Same with the whole discussion over the "dad bod" and Dean.  Geesh.  It's just a tv show.  Maybe my standards are low, or maybe I'm just happy to see the guys show up in a new adventure every week.  

On 2/11/2016 at 4:27 PM, Aeryn13 said:

If they wanted to do that, for me the only way would be not to reward him with the hero moment this time. Which, yeah, is a narrative reward in my eyes even if it is (usually) very bad for the character. The helper job was supposedly good enough for Dean, it shouldn`t besmirch Sam either.    

This made absolutely no f'ing sense whatsoever.  

On 2/11/2016 at 4:30 PM, dragonsbite said:

Final thought on this matter:  Seems like each forum member's perspective on whether 1) this arc is about Sam or Dean and 2) whose POV we're shown actually relates to that person's preference for Sam and Dean. YMMV on this theory.

^^This right here.  

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

Not Midwestern, as far as I know. I do believe it's origin is yiddish. I've heard it on TV before, but never heard anyone use it in real life that I can recall. 

Ah thank you!  I don't recall even hearing it on TV before, so it was really a "what the heck are they saying" kind of moment.  I mean, if they'd been from NYC - and even not Jewish - I could buy the use of Yiddish a little more than typical Mid-Western guys.   Just seemed an odd choice to me.  

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

SOOOO much freakin' angst in the comments about this ep!  After the fact, it's pretty sad, actually.  Though I do have to agree about the lack of Sam POV in general and it's nice to get it, which doesn't necessarily make the entire story about Sam.  

Same with the whole discussion over the "dad bod" and Dean.  Geesh.  It's just a tv show.  Maybe my standards are low, or maybe I'm just happy to see the guys show up in a new adventure every week.

I'm grateful to have a forum wherein I can bitch, be angsty and whine to my hearts content and my fellow commenters can bitch, be angsty and whine to their hearts content.:)  Disagreements and varying viewpoints are bound to be a part of the conversation. All are welcome here.

Edited October 31, 2016 by catrox14

[RulerofallIsurvey]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm grateful to have a forum wherein I can bitch, be angsty and whine to my hearts content and my fellow commenters can bitch, be angsty and whine to their hearts content.:)  Disagreements and varying viewpoints are bound to be a part of the conversation. All are welcome here.

Oh, I adore this forum!  But have you ever gone back and read the comments from past seasons/episodes and laughed at what you were SO worried about that turned out to be not important after all?  (That's something I would do about myself.  Because, hey, if you can't laugh at yourself...)  

And if all viewpoints are welcome here, then I'll suppose mine are also.  ;)  Including the viewpoint that there's a LOT of wacky angst in some of these threads!  

[DittyDotDot]

33 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Ah thank you!  I don't recall even hearing it on TV before, so it was really a "what the heck are they saying" kind of moment.  I mean, if they'd been from NYC - and even not Jewish - I could buy the use of Yiddish a little more than typical Mid-Western guys.   Just seemed an odd choice to me.  

I accept it in the sense that it is kinda a pop cultural reference. Dean probably heard when watching Seinfield or something. ;)

Edited October 31, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[mertensia]

I'm going to guess "Mel Brooks movies". 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

SOOOO much freakin' angst in the comments about this ep!  After the fact, it's pretty sad, actually.  Though I do have to agree about the lack of Sam POV in general and it's nice to get it, which doesn't necessarily make the entire story about Sam.  

Same with the whole discussion over the "dad bod" and Dean.  Geesh.  It's just a tv show.  Maybe my standards are low, or maybe I'm just happy to see the guys show up in a new adventure every week.  

I`m happy Sam didn`t turn out to be the Chosen One after all, good for the show this time. But that doesn`t mean the show didn`t annoy me on the way there. Still don`t like this episode much. And the "dad bod" thing still annoys me. I have seen the writers in interviews, I know how they look so those "Dean (and Jensen) isn`t hot" remarks strike me as quite unflattering...for the writers.  

Quote

This made absolutely no f'ing sense whatsoever.  

I thought it was pretty clear but English isn`t my first language so at times I may not be able to express myself the way I wanted. Sorry. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

36 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I thought it was pretty clear but English isn`t my first language so at times I may not be able to express myself the way I wanted. Sorry. 

No, no, I don't think that's it.  (English is my first language and I have trouble expressing myself sometimes!)

The original comment from someone (I don't know who) was this: "But it's all Sam's fault for releasing the Darkness! Shouldn't he get the chance to make up for his mistake?"

To which you replied: "If they wanted to do that, for me the only way would be not to reward him with the hero moment this time."

Which makes absolutely no sense to me.  You basically said that the way for a person to make up for a Huge-Ass mistake is for them NOT to be the Hero.  Oh, I get that you wanted Dean to be the Big Hero this time, and I really don't have a problem with that (either that you wanted it or that he was.)   But I think that bit above is just your anti-Sam bias showing.  For example, take Sam and Dean out of the equation and put in two characters you don't care much about on a show you don't care much about - and ask yourself if you would still agree that the person who created the mess shouldn't get to be the main person to clean it up.  

Quote

And the "dad bod" thing still annoys me. I have seen the writers in interviews, I know how they look so those "Dean (and Jensen) isn`t hot" remarks strike me as quite unflattering...for the writers.  

They're guys.  I'm sure they thought it was funny.  Maybe it was even an inside joke and/or an ad lib by the actor.  I don't think it was meant to be anything other than a stupid throwaway line.  Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar...

[Aeryn13]

Quote

For example, take Sam and Dean out of the equation and put in two characters you don't care much about on a show you don't care much about - and ask yourself if you would still agree that the person who created the mess shouldn't get to be the main person to clean it up.  

That depends on what I thought was the problem with the character, what led to them to make a mess. Say, they were duped, then the obvious heroic come-back is to dupe the bad guy in return. If they did something cowardly, they finally find the courage. If it was hubris, they step back and accept just helper duty this time. And so on.

Granted, normally, this is really not a question because you usually have one protagonist in a story and it is clear that every big moment will naturally go to them. They will break it and they will make it. Others will help but there is no question that the sole main character will have the most prominent role. Barry over on Flash breaks whole timelines but not in a million years would I expect anyone other than him to be the big hero in the end. It`s his show. SPN working with that template obviously is a problem for me.    

I know those moments where Dean expresses doubt in himself and Sam`s response is to tell Dean that he, Sam, has it covered are supposed to be heartwarming. It was the same with the trials as it was here with dealing with Amara. But for me they don`t work. I don`t want him to immediately jump on the "yup, Dean for some reason or other can`t handle it but luckily there is me" bandwaggon. Why does he never doubt that he is the right man for the big mission? Dean doubts all the time so I wanted to see him for once to be proven wrong about it. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

52 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

That depends on what I thought was the problem with the character, what led to them to make a mess. Say, they were duped, then the obvious heroic come-back is to dupe the bad guy in return. If they did something cowardly, they finally find the courage. If it was hubris, they step back and accept just helper duty this time. And so on.

And in those first two scenarios, the person who created the mess is still taking the lead in cleaning it up:

• If they were duped and the heroic come back is to dupe the bad guy in return, does the person who was duped sit back and watch someone else dupe the bad guy?  Don't they usually at least have some part in the duping?  (I'm thinking "The Sting" and "Oceans 11" type)
• If they were cowardly and they finally find the courage - that is still the person who was cowardly having the active role.  The Lion didn't sit back and let The Scarecrow find his courage for him!  He did himself.

I disagree about the third one: If it was hubris, they step back and accept just helper duty this time.  I think they should step back.  I think they should admit their fault.  I think they should accept help (relevant help).  But I think they should still have an active role in cleaning up their own mess.  Otherwise, imo, people would not learn from their mistakes if someone else cleans up their messes.

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Why does he never doubt that he is the right man for the big mission? Dean doubts all the time so I wanted to see him for once to be proven wrong about it. 

Sam doubts himself quite often.  You just don't like him enough to pay attention.  

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Sam doubts himself quite often.  You just don't like him enough to pay attention.  

I do notice the scenes where he supposedly doubts himself but they don`t convince me of them being genuine for the most part. Do you never get moments of "I don`t buy that" from TV shows, be it character or plot stuff? For me, that happens and it`s not limited to this show or even just this character. And it`s not like I always felt about the character as I do now yet I never really bought into that particular issue. Not saying the character doesn`t have issues, just not convinced of that one.  

In the end, I just don`t care for this episode or the ending dialogue. And it wasn`t even like I hated it. It doesn`t stick out as that memorable to me. Like most of the Season 11 episodes, I found it meh.  

Edited October 31, 2016 by Aeryn13

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Dean doubts all the time so I wanted to see him for once to be proven wrong about it. 

Dean used to doubt often, but during the Mark of Cain arc, Dean said in no uncertain terms that he was the one to handle the situation, and even tricked Sam to make sure Sam would be out of the picture on more than one occasion. And for the most part, Dean was proven right during that time, and brushing Sam aside was seen as the best strategy, because Sam would've only been in the way. He succeeded in killing Abaddon. Even when Dean was proven somewhat wrong - in that he was killed - he still had a part in doing the saving, buying Castiel enough time to finish the job. In both scenarios, Sam wasn't even on the scene until the action was basically over. For me, Dean was mostly rewarded in the narrative for his thinking he was the only one who could solve the issues. There were no narrative consequences - beyond Dean getting killed - from pushing Sam aside. Contrast that with when Sam pushed Dean aside and thought he'd be the one to solve it - he raised Lucifer and started the apocalypse and raised the Darkness. Sure he also put Lucifer back in his cage, but that was one "win" compared to two "losses."

For me, Sam is not the only one who has shown hubris where it was narratively rewarded based on your definition. And Sam during season 4 was shown to be very wrong when he raised Lucifer - a mistake that is still being referred to years later, since starting the apocalypse somehow became Sam's (and his "bad choices") fault, even though many people were involved in starting it, both mistakenly and on purpose. And Sam was shown to be narratively wrong again at the end of season 10 when he called the Darkness. So for me, Sam's hubris is less often rewarded in the narrative than when it is shown to be the wrong strategy.

Edited October 31, 2016 by AwesomO4000

[catrox14]

Just now, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Sam doubts himself quite often.  You just don't like him enough to pay attention.  

I'm not speaking for @Aeryn13 here but, it seemed to me she was referring to his hunter skills and willingness to go headlong into a fight and IMO he certainly doesn't lack confidence in that area. 

IMO, Sam is stubborn if nothing else.  He is not easily moved from paths he takes.  Sam isn't inclined to listen to others when they suggest that maybe the path he's on is not the best choice.   I don't if know that's hubris, but  whatever it is that drives Sam to stay on his path, I don't think self-doubt is a factor, at least not in the moment he's doing that thing (i.e. drinking demon blood, exorcising demons with his mind, deciding it was time to say yes to Lucifer, deciding that he had to be the one to do the trials, deciding that he had to save Dean from being a demon and from the Mark) 

Sam may have issues with feeling separate from his family, that he wasn't right because of his psychic visions, that he was scared of going dark side.  It seems to me as of s7 and later I really don't think SAM defines himself by his failures or mistakes or poor choices anymore.   If he does carry self-doubt, it doesn't seem to stop him from getting right back on that horse and gallop off to the next thing he gets his mind set to do.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

10 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I do notice the scenes where he supposedly doubts himself but they don`t convince me of them being genuine for the most part.

LOL!  Sam can't win for losing with you.  I'll bet if he had a moment of serious dialogue where he doubted himself because...789...it would either:

1. Not be grovely or with enough self-flagellation, so you wouldn't buy it because obviously he didn't mean it if he didn't grovel at Dean's feet enough.
2. Be too grovely and with over the top self-flagellation, so you wouldn't buy it because obviously he didn't mean it since he was just exaggerating and faking so Dean would buy it.  But you don't.

Which is fine - really.  I'm not trying to change your mind about the episode or Sam or any other character for that matter.  But I think one should at least be aware of their biases and how that might affect one's perception.  Like I said above, I'm pretty easy to please.  Mostly, I'm just happy to see the guys in a new episode.  Add in a hefty bonus if they are not bitching at each other.  

[RulerofallIsurvey]

13 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm not speaking for @Aeryn13 here but, it seemed to me she was referring to his hunter skills and willingness to go headlong into a fight and IMO he certainly doesn't lack confidence in that area. 

If this is the case, it certainly applies to Dean too.  (Other than this episode - about Amara - and that was because of the weird 'link' between them, so I don't think that even counts).  So why the double standard?

Edited October 31, 2016 by RulerofallIsurvey

[AwesomO4000]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It seems to me as of s7 and later I really don't think SAM defines himself by his failures or mistakes or poor choices anymore.   If he does carry self-doubt, it doesn't seem to stop him from getting right back on that horse and gallop off to the next thing he gets his mind set to do.

I can see this point. Though there are some big outliers for me. For example, the end of season 8 where Sam seemed to define himself very much by his failures, enough so that he thought dying to fix things was something he pretty much deserved. And apparently Sam carried guilt enough from his failure to look for Dean in season 8 that it affected him later while Lucifer was trying to use it as a mental weapon and he apologized for it. I also think his guilt about the same thing drove much of Sam's efforts in trying to save Dean from the mark of Cain, including his almost killing himself to get the book in "The Werther Project."

Maybe I only half agree with you on that one then, since a bunch of the above seems to be guilt motivated for me.

[Myrelle]

7 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

But I think one should at least be aware of their biases and how that might affect one's perception.

We all should be, even if one claims bi-bro status.

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Dean used to doubt often, but during the Mark of Cain arc, Dean said in no uncertain terms that he was the one to handle the situation, and even tricked Sam to make sure Sam would be out of the picture on more than one occasion. And for the most part, Dean was proven right during that time, and brushing Sam aside was seen as the best strategy, because Sam would've only been in the way. He succeeded in killing Abaddon. E

I dunno, Dean also seemed pretty confident that his decision to take on the Mark was the right way to go. It was a poor decision born of grief and self-loathing but he didn't seem to have any doubt about doing it.

Maybe I'm taking self-doubt too literally here. To me, self-doubt means one doesn't trust one's own decision making, that one looks to others to affirm their choices before making said choices. I think the only time before s11 that Dean didn't trust himself to be able to do the job was when he got out of Hell, found out during the course of torturing Alastair that his actions of harming other souls in Hell, broke the first seal and then was almost beaten to death by Alastair. That shook him enough to lose confidence in his ability to stop Lucifer from rising or even stop Sam from going down a dark path.  I don't think either brother carries self doubt as much as they have guilt, self-loathing, deeply embedded trauma. They may be frightened of having to do certain things and don't particularly WANT to do many of these things, but they overcome those fears because they are brave. 

I dunno. JMHO

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 minute ago, Myrelle said:

We all should be, even if one claims bi-bro status.

That was kind of the point of using neutral pronouns.  :)

[Myrelle]

4 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

That was kind of the point of using neutral pronouns.  :)

Just makin' sure. Some bi-bros I know think that they are above being biased-not anyone here, of course. ;)

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Which is fine - really.  I'm not trying to change your mind about the episode or Sam or any other character for that matter. 

I`m not trying to either. It simply appears we have very, very different tastes. 

Basically I just wanted to answer the question of "do I feel foolish now looking back on what I wrote in this forum after the ep aired". Nope, I don`t. Show disappointed me so many times, I`m not longer feeling bad to worry that it will. Kinda happy when it doesn`t. But I`ll always go with not really expecting good stuff.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Just now, Myrelle said:

Just makin' sure. Some bi-bros I know think that they are above being biased-not anyone here, of course. ;)

Oh, of course!  :)  Not any more than an average, run-of-the-mill Dean-or-Sam-girl anyway.  

The real trick is - if one can recognize the bias and admit it, and in admitting it, make allowances for other interpretations.    Wouldn't you agree?

3 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

But I`ll always go with not really expecting good stuff.

Youch.  I'm just really sorry - and a bit sad - to read that.  

[Myrelle]

Of course. That's why I post here. That, and I like that discussions rarely get personally distasteful here.

[AwesomO4000]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I dunno, Dean also seemed pretty confident that his decision to take on the Mark was the right way to go. It was a poor decision born of grief and self-loathing but he didn't seem to have any doubt about doing it.

Maybe I'm taking self-doubt too literally here. To me, self-doubt means one doesn't trust one's own decision making, that one looks to others to affirm their choices before making said choices. I think the only time before s11 that Dean didn't trust himself to be able to do the job was when he got out of Hell, found out during the course of torturing Alastair that his actions of harming other souls in Hell, broke the first seal and then was almost beaten to death by Alastair. That shook him enough to lose confidence in his ability to stop Lucifer from rising or even stop Sam from going down a dark path.  I don't think either brother carries self doubt as much as they have guilt, self-loathing, deeply embedded trauma. They may be frightened of having to do certain things and don't particularly WANT to do many of these things, but they overcome those fears because they are brave. 

I dunno. JMHO

You're right, and actually I was mostly trying to show times that Dean didn't doubt himself, but there weren't big consequences. I was going off of @Aeryn13's statement that Sam is always confident in his decisions but screws up, whereas Dean doubts, so Aeryn didn't want to see Sam narratively benefit from his hubris. My point was that mainly when Dean has been confident in his decisions, he still gets to be the hero at times, so my point was why can't Sam?

Which now that you point this out - and I admit that I was trying to give Dean the benefit of the doubt, since I'll admit not understanding/sympathizing with Dean as much as I do Sam ( *waves to @Myrelle.* I can admit my bias! ) - for me wanting to see Sam taken down a peg for being confident in his decisions didn't seem right... but wait, maybe I'm confusing hubris and confidence?

But then again, I just don't find Sam to have too much hubris, myself, no matter how many times the narrative tries to tell me he does. I see it more as you do - that Sam thinks he's making the right decision and doesn't want to veer from it once he's made it. But as you've pointed out, he's not the only brother who feels that way.

And hee - how often do you and I agree on such a big point?

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Youch.  I'm just really sorry - and a bit sad - to read that.  

Heh, I only go 100 % with that attitude for this show, in life it`s not more than 70 % tops. :)

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

f this is the case, it certainly applies to Dean too.  (Other than this episode - about Amara - and that was because of the weird 'link' between them, so I don't think that even counts).  So why the double standard?

HUH???   Who said there was a double standard? I was addressing your comment about Sam having self-doubt specifically.

But if you would also like to discuss Dean's self doubt, I figure it goes without saying that Dean's MO is being reckless and throwing himself into things that are not always well advised.  But again to me that's not self-doubt in his decisions at the time he makes them, it's Dean's reckless disregard for his own life born of among other things, the still unresolved, unaddressed with any depth, existential crisis that started in s1 when HE thought he should have died. But that's just MY opinion of how I see Dean.  

IMO Dean doesn't value himself in the same way that Sam values himself.  Sam chose to come back to hunting. But I don't think it ever defined who he is as a person.  He knows he could do other things but he's choosing this life now.  Whereas IMO Dean doesn't think he has value other than as a hunter.  Sam desired to be a lawyer and be away from hunting, he desired to have a life with Amelia away from hunting.  IMO that is still part of who Sam is. I don't think Sam is choosing to hunt now because he thinks he has no other choices but because he wants to do it. 

Dean's entire life has been defined by being a protector/caregiver to Sam and John both/saving people, hunting things. If he EVER wanted to do other things (like I dunno be a doctor or medical professional of some kind or be an engineer) it only comes out in fantasyland.  He tried to have a life with Lisa but that just couldn't work because IMO Dean defines himself as a hunter. He can't NOT hunt.  Zachariah for all his shittiness probably had that right about Dean. I think Sam sees it as a profession, not who he is a human being. Dean sees hunting as who he is.

IMO I think Sam is given to hubris and Dean is given to reckless disregard for himself. I don't think either have self-doubt as I think of it.

[catrox14]

42 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I can see this point. Though there are some big outliers for me. For example, the end of season 8 where Sam seemed to define himself very much by his failures, enough so that he thought dying to fix things was something he pretty much deserved

I have to say that never made a bit of sense to me how Sam went from "Dean, I want to LIVE so I should do the trials and you shouldn't" to "I don't care if I live anymore".  Holy character whiplash, Batman! 

IMO, Sam's words that he had done his penance by jumping into the pit was 100% true and intended for the audience to understand it as true for Sam and not denial on his part. 

To me, Sam being suicidal in Sacrifice didn't comport with the Sam who said he wasn't saying yes to Lucifer because he had no hope or the Sam who told Dean he shouldn't say yes to Michael because he decided Dean was doing it out of hopelessness and giving up.  Yet here Sam no  longer cares if he lives or dies because he let down Dean/Dean was a jerk for having friends beyond Sam(depends on your viewpoint).  

However, Sam  choosing to stop the trials, does comport with the Sam who told Dean planned to survive the trials which is why he should do them vs Dean whom Sam determined was doing it out of hopelessness/suicidal tendencies.   

IMO, Sam agreeing to help Dean with Amara is the Sam that thinks Dean has no hope. The difference now is that Dean has taken himself out of the fight whereas before in s5, Sam and Bobby put Dean on lockdown and is s8, Sam conveniently was there to kill the Hellhound instead of letting Dean do it. 

I saw the same pattern here,  with the camera focusing on Sam in the closing scene, instead of Dean, which IMO was  shifting the story to Sam and him saving the world from Amara. It would be a setup for Sam to have win and redemption for not figuring out that the visions were from Lucifer and not God. That's why I was quite annoyed with it.

[catrox14]

I'm not trying to police anyone here but I have to say this  entire conversation is leaving me with the uncomfortable impression, that WHATEVER comment is made, about almost anything, it can be met with "Well, you're biased so your comment should be questioned" with a side of "maybe your opinion is not particularly valid because of your bias". 

I personally don't want anyone to be made to feel that their comments NO MATTER which bias one may or may not have will be dismissed as "biased commenting" out of hand.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

HUH???   Who said there was a double standard? I was addressing your comment about Sam having self-doubt specifically.

Sorry, I misunderstood - I think.  Or pretty much what @AwesomO4000 said above.  

[RulerofallIsurvey]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm not trying to police anyone here but I have to say this  entire conversation is leaving me with the uncomfortable impression, that WHATEVER comment is made, about almost anything, it can be met with "Well, you're biased so your comment should be questioned" with a side of "maybe your opinion is not particularly valid because of your bias". 

Or maybe it forces all of us to really think about and rethink our opinions/impressions/reactions/ etc and be able to explain them better if/when asked?  I don't think that's such a bad thing.  Look at the exchange between you and AwesomO4000 above: very thoughtful and insightful posts on both sides (which, really weren't that far apart as it turns out, imo.)  And I enjoyed reading them!  So I'm not going to apologize for stirring the pot, when that's the result.  ymmv.