mertensia March 24, 2016 Share March 24, 2016 I have always thought Michael pushed John to do the deal for Dean. 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/4/#findComment-2083526
trxr4kids March 24, 2016 Share March 24, 2016 (edited) I think Dean had a complete rebuild at least once when he Cas raised him from Perdition completely healed. He didn't have any wounds from the Hellhounds ripping apart his torso which I would imagine included his internal organs like his liver. He also said that every time he was resurrected by Alastair in Hell after his body was tortured and ripped apart his body was put back together again like new. I agree but then again Sam also had a complete rebuild physically when Cas resurrected him and yet somehow he still thought he was tainted by demon blood ( the trials purifying him ). The show has left a lot of wiggle room as far as the scope of healing the entire body vs just restoring it prior to current damage imo. So many of the main factors into plots are left open for fanwank going back to what John knew and when, to when did Sam start drinking demon blood and why, to why did Dean take the MoC when he knew Crowley was manipulating him, it seems very deliberate to me. We can speculate all we want but it's never clearly spelled out in the narrative one way or another. But as far as physical affects in show vs real life, Cas remade Dean in season 4 ep 1 which has been arguably 10/11 or 12/13 years ago given the time jumps in season 6 and 8, Dean would still, due to his heavy alcohol consumption have some visible ill effects. Wait, I just painted myself in a corner here, that totally explains why he took the MoC. Dammit catrox. ETA: oh wow math and this show....I transposed seasons to years. I meant season 6 happened either 1 year after season 5's finale or not since the dates don't line up for a time jump just like season 7 to 8. Somehow I substituted the potential season numbers, my bad. Edited March 24, 2016 by trxr4kids Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/4/#findComment-2083547
catrox14 March 24, 2016 Author Share March 24, 2016 (edited) But as far as physical affects in show vs real life, Cas remade Dean in season 4 ep 1 which has been arguably 10/11 or 12/13 years ago given the time jumps in season 6 and 8, Dean would still, due to his heavy alcohol consumption have some visible ill effects. Wait, I just painted myself in a corner here, that totally explains why he took the MoC. Dammit catrox. To me a full resurrection would cure whatever physical human thing is broken. Demon blood? Maybe it doesn't fit into the physically human so it didn't get wiped out? I'm spitballin' on that one. Still don't understand it. AFAIK it's 2016 in the show. So it's 8 years ago....and even then 8 years of drinking for a guy like Dean who is otherwise fit? Might not show any ill effects until he hits 50... Dean had one more full resurrection by the MoC into demon!Dean. Since Dean didn't drop dead after the Mark being removed I'm guessing the stab through his heart that killed him in 9.23 was healed during his resurrection into demon!Dean? ** Maybe he got another rebuilt liver in that process? Also he was de-aged to 14 and re-aged just last year.. So even if the resurrection into a demon didn't help his liver maybe de-aging and reaging gave it a little tuneup. **Which makes me wonder....if the resurrection didn't heal his heart from the stab by angel blade why is Dean even alive now? By the Grace of Amara alone? Edited March 24, 2016 by catrox14 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/4/#findComment-2083646
Demented Daisy March 24, 2016 Share March 24, 2016 Considering he was able to heal that scratch on his face (and the cut on his hand), he probably healed everything else when he was a demon. 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/4/#findComment-2083681
catrox14 March 24, 2016 Author Share March 24, 2016 Hmm, so now I wonder....was he using the power of the Mark to heal like he could control it or was the Mark healing him without him even controlling it? HMMMMM Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/4/#findComment-2083745
AwesomO4000 March 24, 2016 Share March 24, 2016 I think Dean had a complete rebuild at least once when he Cas raised him from Perdition completely healed. He didn't have any wounds from the Hellhounds ripping apart his torso which I would imagine included his internal organs like his liver. He also said that every time he was resurrected by Alastair in Hell after his body was tortured and ripped apart his body was put back together again like new. Though that was Dean's "hell body" in hell, because his real body was buried by Sam in Pontiac. I kind of just fanwank that your soul becomes body shaped in hell, heaven, or purgatory for monsters (like Benny), etc, but then becomes the glowy light, black swirly smoke, or whatever Benny became inside of Dean's arm if taken out of those realms into the regular world. 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/4/#findComment-2083782
catrox14 March 24, 2016 Author Share March 24, 2016 Though that was Dean's "hell body" in hell, because his real body was buried by Sam in Pontiac. I kind of just fanwank that your soul becomes body shaped in hell, heaven, or purgatory for monsters (like Benny), etc, but then becomes the glowy light, black swirly smoke, or whatever Benny became inside of Dean's arm if taken out of those realms into the regular world. Oh that's a good point on the Hell body.... so then Dean's been resurrected..from really most sincerely dead in his own meatsuit...twice? And de-aged and re-aged once? Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/4/#findComment-2083802
trxr4kids March 25, 2016 Share March 25, 2016 After more thought (again), I'm going to ignore the alcoholism like the show does. I think it makes more sense that Michael manipulated John's mind. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/4/#findComment-2083961
Lrdmordain March 25, 2016 Share March 25, 2016 So the latest episode, Safe House, where we see Sam and Dean open the caskets of two previously burned bodies pointed out something that never really occurred to me till then. If ghosts can exist in an object or the smallest piece of a remain of a person, doesn't that mean that when you burn a body you have to burn it down complete ash? Both the bodies they showed still had visible pieces of bones remaining in tact. Does the mere act of burning kill the ghost and the amount of remaining matter doesn't matter? Or do the bones themselves not count in someway? Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/4/#findComment-2084569
SueB March 25, 2016 Share March 25, 2016 (edited) So the latest episode, Safe House, where we see Sam and Dean open the caskets of two previously burned bodies pointed out something that never really occurred to me till then. If ghosts can exist in an object or the smallest piece of a remain of a person, doesn't that mean that when you burn a body you have to burn it down complete ash? Both the bodies they showed still had visible pieces of bones remaining in tact. Does the mere act of burning kill the ghost and the amount of remaining matter doesn't matter? Or do the bones themselves not count in someway? An excellent question. And the truth is, even a regular crematorium has tiny bits of bone in the ash. Also, anything left with DNA can "house" the ghost. Or it can be tied to an inanimate object (Bobby's flask). BUT... if your run-of-the-mill ghost is gone after you get rid of the DNA, then the real question is whether or not the DNA still exists in the bone. A bit of Google-fu reveals that the worst-case scenario for melting DNA is 149 deg Farenheit. I'd say that the DNA in those bones was melted and therefore no longer viable for letting a ghost hold on. Google-fu also indicates 575 degF to 1100 degF for a woodburning fire. More than sufficient to eliminate any kind of actual DNA-viable material. So... unless they are "emotionally attached" to their bones (ala Bobby's flask), I'd say the ghosts were toast. (rim-shot) Edited March 25, 2016 by SueB 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/4/#findComment-2084591
Lrdmordain March 25, 2016 Share March 25, 2016 Shouldn't there be hundreds of Leviathans still around? I know they used a tier system so cut off the head and the body rots sort of organization but killing the leader doesn't actually kill anyone but the leader, all the rest should still be around, just not as organized right? As I recall they never actually found a way to kill them aside from that sacred bone weapon spell of which a lot of work was put into making just the one. Borax hurt them but it didn't seem to actually kill them and they admitted that the beheadings were a temp fix since eventually the heads would re-connect with the bodies. So my big question is where have they been? They were strong enough to overpower pretty much every other type of creature, including angels and demons, yet we've seen nothing of them since their season. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/4/#findComment-2084650
DittyDotDot March 25, 2016 Share March 25, 2016 An excellent question. And the truth is, even a regular crematorium has tiny bits of bone in the ash. Also, anything left with DNA can "house" the ghost. Or it can be tied to an inanimate object (Bobby's flask). BUT... if your run-of-the-mill ghost is gone after you get rid of the DNA, then the real question is whether or not the DNA still exists in the bone. A bit of Google-fu reveals that the worst-case scenario for melting DNA is 149 deg Farenheit. I'd say that the DNA in those bones was melted and therefore no longer viable for letting a ghost hold on. Google-fu also indicates 575 degF to 1100 degF for a woodburning fire. More than sufficient to eliminate any kind of actual DNA-viable material. So... unless they are "emotionally attached" to their bones (ala Bobby's flask), I'd say the ghosts were toast. (rim-shot) I also think the salting portion of the "salt 'n' burn"is the key. If there is any viable DNA left, the salt would repel ghost from being able to latch on to it. Seriously, the things this show has me typing sometimes. Shouldn't there be hundreds of Leviathans still around? I know they used a tier system so cut off the head and the body rots sort of organization but killing the leader doesn't actually kill anyone but the leader, all the rest should still be around, just not as organized right? As I recall they never actually found a way to kill them aside from that sacred bone weapon spell of which a lot of work was put into making just the one. Borax hurt them but it didn't seem to actually kill them and they admitted that the beheadings were a temp fix since eventually the heads would re-connect with the bodies. So my big question is where have they been? They were strong enough to overpower pretty much every other type of creature, including angels and demons, yet we've seen nothing of them since their season. At first I wondered about this too, but I finally decided when Dean boned Dick it sent the rest of them back to Purgatory. That's why they were in Purgatory and constantly gunning for Dean. Granted, I suspect it's more due to Carver and Co. probably having no interest in Leviathans, but that's how I reconciled it myself. 5 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/4/#findComment-2085266
trxr4kids March 25, 2016 Share March 25, 2016 Shouldn't there be hundreds of Leviathans still around? I know they used a tier system so cut off the head and the body rots sort of organization but killing the leader doesn't actually kill anyone but the leader, all the rest should still be around, just not as organized right? As I recall they never actually found a way to kill them aside from that sacred bone weapon spell of which a lot of work was put into making just the one. Borax hurt them but it didn't seem to actually kill them and they admitted that the beheadings were a temp fix since eventually the heads would re-connect with the bodies. So my big question is where have they been? They were strong enough to overpower pretty much every other type of creature, including angels and demons, yet we've seen nothing of them since their season. I agree with DittyDotDot, Carver took over as show runner season 8 and he just didn't care to tie up that loose end. I'm now adopting her headcannon that they all got sucked back to purgatory. 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/4/#findComment-2085321
Demented Daisy March 25, 2016 Share March 25, 2016 An excellent question. And the truth is, even a regular crematorium has tiny bits of bone in the ash. Also, anything left with DNA can "house" the ghost. Or it can be tied to an inanimate object (Bobby's flask). BUT... if your run-of-the-mill ghost is gone after you get rid of the DNA, then the real question is whether or not the DNA still exists in the bone. A bit of Google-fu reveals that the worst-case scenario for melting DNA is 149 deg Farenheit. I'd say that the DNA in those bones was melted and therefore no longer viable for letting a ghost hold on. Google-fu also indicates 575 degF to 1100 degF for a woodburning fire. More than sufficient to eliminate any kind of actual DNA-viable material. So... unless they are "emotionally attached" to their bones (ala Bobby's flask), I'd say the ghosts were toast. (rim-shot) Strangely enough, I just turned on the tv and the show on was about a guy who was accused of murdering his wife. They had difficulty prosecuting him, though, because he burned her body down to the bone. They could not prove that the bones belonged to his wife because "every trace of DNA had been burned away". (Direct quote.) Creepy! 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/4/#findComment-2085451
SueB March 25, 2016 Share March 25, 2016 Strangely enough, I just turned on the tv and the show on was about a guy who was accused of murdering his wife. They had difficulty prosecuting him, though, because he burned her body down to the bone. They could not prove that the bones belonged to his wife because "every trace of DNA had been burned away". (Direct quote.) Creepy! "Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/4/#findComment-2085554
catrox14 March 25, 2016 Author Share March 25, 2016 (edited) Strangely enough, I just turned on the tv and the show on was about a guy who was accused of murdering his wife. They had difficulty prosecuting him, though, because he burned her body down to the bone. They could not prove that the bones belonged to his wife because "every trace of DNA had been burned away". (Direct quote.) Creepy! This reminds me of "Making a Murderer" ... .I mean if Steven Avery really wanted to burn the bones wouldn't he have done it in away that the victim couldn't have been identified? If the point was to you know, hide the murder. Sorry I digress. But seriously, y'all need to watch that if you haven't. Also, this makes me wonder if Sam and Dean's DNA Is all squirelly from their resurrections. Edited March 25, 2016 by catrox14 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/4/#findComment-2085843
7kstar March 25, 2016 Share March 25, 2016 Some of these questions make my head hurt. Avoidance is the key and that is what our head writers do, ignore it and it will go away or at least send a message like in season 6 No, we're not talking about Lisa again...don't care it is a loose end...we will refuse to answer "on the grounds of Brooklyn." Points if you know what musical that is from. :) Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/4/#findComment-2086267
AwesomO4000 March 25, 2016 Share March 25, 2016 (edited) Sadly, I do not, but for my musical representation of this, I present... Edited March 25, 2016 by AwesomO4000 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/4/#findComment-2086434
7kstar March 25, 2016 Share March 25, 2016 I'll wait a little longer before I give the answer, but yes I do believe they try very hard to sidestep it all. Change the narrative to fit what story they want to tell. Only it's the fans problem if they don't see how on earth it fits together. :) 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/4/#findComment-2086805
catrox14 March 28, 2016 Author Share March 28, 2016 When did it change that demon knives kill the meatsuit in all cases? I don't remember that being the case back in s3 when Ruby 1.0 showed up with the demon knife. It seems like that only became a thing when Sam needed a defense for why exorcising demons via the Hand of Ipecac was more humane than the demon knife. Ruby 2.0 would take the experimental meatsuits to the hospital....so why couldn't they just do that with ones exorcised by demon knife. They could just drop them off at hospital and leave. Have a missed a plot point on demon knives? Or is this just a function of Plotonium? Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/4/#findComment-2092826
DittyDotDot March 28, 2016 Share March 28, 2016 (edited) I think the Knife-That-Can-Kill-Anything-Except-When-It-Can't has always killed the meatsuits. In the very first episode it was introduced--The Magnificent Seven--it killed both the demon and the host. Also, in the witch episode of S3. TBH, I don't remember a time when the knife it didn't kill the host, but I could be forgetting something there. I thought that was the double-edged-sword of it all: it killed the demon, but also the host. But if they didn't kill the demon, it would just possess someone else and could also inform on what Sam and Dean are up to and the human inside might not be saveable anyway. Edited March 28, 2016 by DittyDotDot 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/4/#findComment-2092899
FlickChick March 28, 2016 Share March 28, 2016 DDD, I believe you are correct. If the knife was used only to injure, rather than kill the host, the demon would be able to escape and find another host unless in a devil's trap. But if they had the trap, then they could use an exorcism while the demon could not escape or hurt them. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/4/#findComment-2092978
trxr4kids March 28, 2016 Share March 28, 2016 (edited) I think the demon knife always killed the host but for me that makes little sense unless the host was already dead or the knife was wielded in such a way as to be a fatal blow to the human. There have been many cases of victims of multiple stab wounds who live, granted that knife seems pretty big and Sam and Dean are experts with weapons. Still, wouldn't stabbing the host in an arm or leg while avoiding arteries of course, kill the demon but give the host a better chance than stabbing them in the heart or stomach region? Edited March 28, 2016 by trxr4kids Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/4/#findComment-2093138
AwesomO4000 March 28, 2016 Share March 28, 2016 ... Ruby 2.0 would take the experimental meatsuits to the hospital....so why couldn't they just do that with ones exorcised by demon knife. They could just drop them off at hospital and leave. Have a missed a plot point on demon knives? Or is this just a function of Plotonium? The meatsuits I remember Ruby taking to the hospital were ones that Sam exercised, because sometimes they were "rode hard" as Ruby put it, and so they would need hospital care after being freed from the demon just to be on the safe side. I agree with DDD that typically when used, the knife lead to the death of the host as well as the demon. That was one of the ways Ruby convinced Sam to use his powers - it had a much better chance of saving the host. DDD, I believe you are correct. If the knife was used only to injure, rather than kill the host, the demon would be able to escape and find another host unless in a devil's trap. But if they had the trap, then they could use an exorcism while the demon could not escape or hurt them. Even then it is risky, because when exorcised, the demons are sent back to hell rather than killed. Meg was in a devil's trap when they exorcised her and sent her back to hell. Considering the time difference, even if the foe doesn't just get their hench demon out of hell to get the information he/she has, even climbing back out might not take that long in Sam and Dean's time, so demons sent back to hell could still theoretically be a threat. That's the dilemma with saving (exorcism) vs killing with the knife. I think the demon knife always killed the host but for me that makes little sense unless the host was already dead or the knife was wielded in such a way as to be a fatal blow to the human. There have been many cases of victims of multiple stab wounds who live, granted that knife seems pretty big and Sam and Dean are experts with weapons. Still, wouldn't stabbing the host in an arm or leg while avoiding arteries of course, kill the demon but give the host a better chance than stabbing them in the heart or stomach region? I'm not entirely sure about that either. From what I've seen, the demon seems to be pretty tied up with the host. Shooting YED in the leg for example, even with the Colt, didn't kill him. And Sam and Dean have both used the demon knife to torture demons for information without killing them, stabbing them in the arm or especially the leg to do so. Sam even stabbed Alastair in the chest and didn't dispatch him. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/4/#findComment-2093253
Demented Daisy March 28, 2016 Share March 28, 2016 The meatsuits I remember Ruby taking to the hospital were ones that Sam exercised, because sometimes they were "rode hard" as Ruby put it, *giggle snort* I'm imagining Sam tackling demons in his yoga uniform. 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/4/#findComment-2093271
trxr4kids March 28, 2016 Share March 28, 2016 I'm not entirely sure about that either. From what I've seen, the demon seems to be pretty tied up with the host. Shooting YED in the leg for example, even with the Colt, didn't kill him. And Sam and Dean have both used the demon knife to torture demons for information without killing them, stabbing them in the arm or especially the leg to do so. Sam even stabbed Alastair in the chest and didn't dispatch him. Azazel and Alistair were high ranking demons so I always thought that was why those things didn't work. I have to admit I generally ffwd torture scenes so I didn't know they used that knife. Did they cut them or actually stab them? 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/4/#findComment-2093367
DittyDotDot March 28, 2016 Share March 28, 2016 Azazel and Alistair were high ranking demons so I always thought that was why those things didn't work. I have to admit I generally ffwd torture scenes so I didn't know they used that knife. Did they cut them or actually stab them? Both, sometimes. I'm trying to think of specific episodes, but none stand out in my mind right now. I seem to recall them stabbing a run-of-the-mill demon in the leg while it's in a devil's trap, but I can't place the episode right now. In, On The Head Of The Pin, Dean douses the knife in holy water and uses that to cut Alistair (he was trussed up in a devil's trap, though), but Sam full-on stabbed him in the chest with the knife in I Know What You Did Last Summer and it didn't even flicker on him. So, yeah, I assumed it was because he was more than a run-of-the-mill demon. I do think the host partially dies due to the wounds inflicted, but also the demon dying while trapped in the body might also play a part. I've never really thought about why the host dies before, just noticed they generally did. 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/4/#findComment-2093465
trxr4kids March 28, 2016 Share March 28, 2016 Thanks Ditty. I guess I have to say at this point in the show I really don't think about the hosts or vessels or really any characters death. I'm just annoyed by the senselessness of it usually but that's a rant for the bitterness thread. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/4/#findComment-2093528
Lrdmordain April 3, 2016 Share April 3, 2016 So Red Meat brought up an interesting question with regards to Reapers. Do they have any actual power aside from guiding the dead to their final destination? Billie said she wanted to insure that once Dean and/or Sam died they'd not ever come back yet when was dying she just allowed the doctors to revive him, though froze the moment to enjoy it. All she seemed to really do is offer out her hand. Can she not do anything unless Dean accepts her hand? Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/4/#findComment-2110192
catrox14 April 3, 2016 Author Share April 3, 2016 So Red Meat brought up an interesting question with regards to Reapers. Do they have any actual power aside from guiding the dead to their final destination? Billie said she wanted to insure that once Dean and/or Sam died they'd not ever come back yet when was dying she just allowed the doctors to revive him, though froze the moment to enjoy it. All she seemed to really do is offer out her hand. Can she not do anything unless Dean accepts her hand? Tessa and Bobby's Reaper both had to wait for there "reapees" to say yes to take them to Heaven or Hell. But reapers don't control life and death. The person will still die but they will be trapped on earth and become a bad ghost which is what Tessa said would happen to Dean in s2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/4/#findComment-2110254
Lrdmordain April 3, 2016 Share April 3, 2016 (edited) So essentially Billie can't actually do anything to make Dean / Sam die and/or hasten their death, she can only, presumably in some way, stop them from being resurrected? It just seems rather a hollow threat since they have to willingly go with her at least for her to even have the chance to carry out her intentions. Edited April 3, 2016 by Lrdmordain Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/4/#findComment-2110264
catrox14 April 3, 2016 Author Share April 3, 2016 (edited) So essentially Billie can't actually do anything to make Dean / Sam die and/or hasten their death, she can only, presumably in some way, stop them from being resurrected? It just seems rather a hollow threat since they have to willingly go with her at least for her to even have the chance to carry out her intentions. IMO it's not a hollow threat because the boys know what will happen to them if they die and don't go with her. And they don't want that. Like we saw with Dean. But she does control where they go. If she dumps them into the Empty, there is no chance of resurrection. What I want to know is if Death is really most sincerely dead, who is in charge of life and death? The only other thing I can think of is, as with the LOLcanon of reapers, that somehow they have that power now? But AFAIK that hasn't been said to be truth. Edited April 3, 2016 by catrox14 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/4/#findComment-2110274
DittyDotDot April 3, 2016 Share April 3, 2016 So Red Meat brought up an interesting question with regards to Reapers. Do they have any actual power aside from guiding the dead to their final destination? Billie said she wanted to insure that once Dean and/or Sam died they'd not ever come back yet when was dying she just allowed the doctors to revive him, though froze the moment to enjoy it. All she seemed to really do is offer out her hand. Can she not do anything unless Dean accepts her hand? Oh, you did it now...Reaper lore on this show has gotten so muddied and confusing it's really not clear exactly what reapers can and can't do anymore. When reapers were first introduced to us with Faith in S1, they could both give and take life, but could only be seen by the dying. That was consistent in S2 with In My Time Of Dying, as well, except they introduced reapers could mess with perception and those who didn't willingly go with their reapers stayed as ghosts and eventually lost their minds and began killing folks. Death Takes A Holiday in S4 (ironically written by Jeremy Carver) it seemed reapers weren't all too concerned about earthly matters and just wanted to do their jobs of escorting souls to the afterlife--maybe that was just Tessa, though? And that's mostly the way they stayed until S8 when they introduced all this rogue reaper nonsense. Since then reapers seem to be able to do almost anything, except when they can't. They took Bobby's soul to Hell, instead of Heaven where it belonged, for Crowley. so, I wouldn't be surprised to learn the souls don't have to willingly go with them anymore. IMO, the most egregious thing they did was say that reapers were literally "angels" of death. But It's probably not the most WTF thing the show has done lately, so whatever. So, technically, yes, they can stop time; mess with people's perception; give and take life; and do whatever else the show wants them to do. So, it may or may not be an empty threat on Billie's part. I personally think she was just dicking with Dean when she said she was there to reap him. Previously, when Dean killed himself to talk with Death in Appointment in Samarra, he said a spell that summoned Tessa and Tessa was surprised Dean was dead. Dean didn't do that this time. It could either mean that Dean was really dying and Billie showed up to do her job. Or, Billie is watching them and showed herself just to see Dean squirm. Billie seems like the sort who would ignore her other responsibilities just to dick with the Winchesters, so I'm not sure Dean was really dying there, myself. 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/4/#findComment-2110554
AwesomO4000 April 3, 2016 Share April 3, 2016 Billie seems like the sort who would ignore her other responsibilities just to dick with the Winchesters, so I'm not sure Dean was really dying there, myself. Good point, and not only that, the big boss is potentially gone. He used to be "away" before Lucifer brought him up, but at least eventually there might be a threat for not doing one's job. Now with that threat supposedly gone, I'm actually surprised that we haven't gotten a "reaper gone bad" story/episode myself... well beyond the rogue reapers, but now there is potentially even less threat for going rogue than before. 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/4/#findComment-2110791
trxr4kids April 10, 2016 Share April 10, 2016 Posts about DemonDean made me ponder why his eyes turned black. Were Cain's ever shown to change? I always thought black eyes were lower level demons as opposed to red (crossroads), white or yellow (hierarchy). Dean as the mark bearer/knight of hell should have been high ranking/ powerful and had a distinctive eye color. Although Crowleys are still red even after he was king of hell, I'm confused. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/4/#findComment-2135304
catrox14 April 10, 2016 Author Share April 10, 2016 Posts about DemonDean made me ponder why his eyes turned black. Were Cain's ever shown to change? I always thought black eyes were lower level demons as opposed to red (crossroads), white or yellow (hierarchy). Dean as the mark bearer/knight of hell should have been high ranking/ powerful and had a distinctive eye color. Although Crowleys are still red even after he was king of hell, I'm confused. I don't know if Cain had black eyes...if he did we never saw them. But it's a good question that probably centers solely around the shock value when he opened his eyes at the end of s9. I don't get it myself LOL 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/4/#findComment-2135318
trxr4kids April 10, 2016 Share April 10, 2016 (edited) I think if they had done a glowy red effect in conjuction with the mark of cain pulsing/glowing it would have been more shocking and effective, sigh. Edited April 10, 2016 by trxr4kids 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/4/#findComment-2135338
FlickChick April 10, 2016 Share April 10, 2016 Abaddon's eyes turned black while possessing both Colette and Josie and she was a knight of hell just like Cain and demon!Dean. Why they weren't white like Lilith's or Alistair's, I have no idea. 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/4/#findComment-2135507
catrox14 April 10, 2016 Author Share April 10, 2016 I think if they had done a glowy red effect in conjuction with the mark of cain pulsing/glowing it would have been it would have been more shocking and effective, sigh. OH MAN!! Another damn missed demon!Dean opportunity. Bah. That would have been perfect. I mean it makes all the sense in the world. It would have also made sense because Cain's house had all that red glowy light when he killed all those demons...which I can easily fanwank was Cain's power shooting through his eyeballs. FFFFFF lol Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/4/#findComment-2135515
auntvi April 10, 2016 Share April 10, 2016 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/4/#findComment-2135590
MysteryGuest April 11, 2016 Share April 11, 2016 I'm not even going to attempt to figure out the demon eye-color hierarchy. Maybe they get to pick the color based on personal preference. Have we seen any other yellow-eyed demons, other than the original? Crowley has smoky red eyes (which were very cool), but we've never seen those before. Crossroad demons' eyes are red, but not like Crowley's. Then you have your basic black and white. Crowley is the King of Hell, but is he also a Knight of Hell? It is very confusing. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/4/#findComment-2138232
catrox14 April 11, 2016 Author Share April 11, 2016 rowley is the King of Hell, but is he also a Knight of Hell? It is very confusing. Crowley is not a Knight of Hell. He was a crossroads demon and then worked his way to King of Hell through deal making and power brokering and murder. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/4/#findComment-2138263
DittyDotDot April 11, 2016 Share April 11, 2016 (edited) I'm not even going to attempt to figure out the demon eye-color hierarchy. Maybe they get to pick the color based on personal preference. Have we seen any other yellow-eyed demons, other than the original? Crowley has smoky red eyes (which were very cool), but we've never seen those before. Crossroad demons' eyes are red, but not like Crowley's. Then you have your basic black and white. Crowley is the King of Hell, but is he also a Knight of Hell? It is very confusing. I remember on, I think a commentary, Kripke and Gamble talked about why Lilith had white eyes and such. They basically wanted to make a distinction between higher or more powerful demons than their typical black-eyed stunt demons. Crowley had red eyes because he was a crossroads demon and only became the King of Hell through the power vacuum left in hell after Lucifer got locked back up and all the big powerful demons had been taken out. He continued to maintain his position through fear, but, IMO, isn't as powerful as Yellow Eyes, Lilith or even Alistair. It's kinda the Crowley way; fake it till you make it. That's my head cannon for why he still has red eyes, anyway. Why he his smoke is red, though, I have no real explanation for because as I recall all the big hitters in Hell and all other crossroad demons had black smoke too. I guess one could argue that even though Demon Dean was a Knight of Hell--basically made by Cain--he was a fairly "new" demon, so maybe his eyes just hadn't adjusted and why his eyes were black as opposed to some other color? I dunno. Edited April 11, 2016 by DittyDotDot Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/4/#findComment-2138374
Binns April 11, 2016 Share April 11, 2016 This may have come up before, but how is Dean alive? He was dead when he was resurrected as a demon. Did the demon fix his meatsuit? Because we've seen demons in dead people before and when they are exorcised the body remains behind. Does it make a difference that he wasn't possessed but was actually a demon? Are demons corporeal when they aren't in a meatsuit? Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/4/#findComment-2138657
MysteryGuest April 11, 2016 Share April 11, 2016 Yes, Dean is alive because he actually became a demon, as opposed to just being possessed by one. He was able to heal himself, as we saw with the various wounds he got, so I guess we can assume that whatever might have been ailing him at the time...knife wound, pickled liver, were also healed. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/4/#findComment-2138683
Binns April 11, 2016 Share April 11, 2016 (edited) AHHH. So he's re-hymenated again as well. Lol! I'm sort of bummed that he lost Castiel's handprint a while back. I loved that. (Which...shouldn't Sam have a handprint?) Edited April 11, 2016 by Binns 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/4/#findComment-2138696
MysteryGuest April 11, 2016 Share April 11, 2016 So, what about the Steins? Are we to assume that Dean wiped out the entire family in one afternoon, or are they still out there trying to track down the Book of the Damned? For a family that had been around for centuries, and appeared to have some powers besides just the spare parts, they were dispatched fairly easily. The Book of the Damned has been out of it's secret box on a number of occasions, so you'd think they might have gotten a fix on it by now. Plus, they have to be looking for Dean, wouldn't you think? Is this just another dropped storyline, or do you suppose they might show up again sometime? Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/4/#findComment-2138711
catrox14 April 11, 2016 Author Share April 11, 2016 (edited) Yes, Dean is alive because he actually became a demon, as opposed to just being possessed by one. He was able to heal himself, as we saw with the various wounds he got, so I guess we can assume that whatever might have been ailing him at the time...knife wound, pickled liver, were also healed. The way I understood it was the Mark the wouldn't let go. So the question is whether Dean ever really died between getting stabbed in the heart and waking up with demon eyes or was he really most sincerely dead and was resurrected. To me, if the Mark was what kept Dean alive then he should have died when the Mark was removed. I have a head!canon that Dean really died and his soul went to Hell where he experienced an escalated demonization thing because of the Mark and the FB. So between the time he died until Crowley put the FB in his hand...was him in Hell being demonized. That's just my own theory and head canon. It's also because I wrote a fic about it (well, it's WIP)....LOL Edited April 11, 2016 by catrox14 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/4/#findComment-2138752
DittyDotDot April 11, 2016 Share April 11, 2016 (edited) So, what about the Steins? Are we to assume that Dean wiped out the entire family in one afternoon, or are they still out there trying to track down the Book of the Damned? For a family that had been around for centuries, and appeared to have some powers besides just the spare parts, they were dispatched fairly easily. The Book of the Damned has been out of it's secret box on a number of occasions, so you'd think they might have gotten a fix on it by now. Plus, they have to be looking for Dean, wouldn't you think? Is this just another dropped storyline, or do you suppose they might show up again sometime? The cynic in me says, dropped storyline, but one never knows I guess. Pretty polite of those Stynes to all hang out in one small town so Dean could wipe them all out on the same day. ;) Edited April 11, 2016 by DittyDotDot 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/4/#findComment-2138770
MysteryGuest April 11, 2016 Share April 11, 2016 (edited) Being killed while carrying the Mark is what turned him into a demon, but then as an actual demon, his body was able to heal itself. So when the Mark was removed, he would still be in the healed state from when he was a demon. At least that's how I've explained it to myself. Steins/Stynes...whichever, but I thought they were a large family with international connections? Apparently, not so much. It's too bad though, it could have been an interesting storyline. Edited April 11, 2016 by MysteryGuest 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/4/#findComment-2138771
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