"What?!?": In Which We Attempt to Address the WTFery of SPN Lore and Whatnot

[Katy M]

4 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

 

But it remains that the revolving front door of the bunker needs to be addressed.  It should be made magical again like it was at the beginning.  And those scenes of Baby parked outside doesn't help.

 

That's another annoying thing.  We almost always see the car parked outside.  We always see them come in through the front.  Yet, when they need the car to be in the garage (Who We Are), it was.  I think the only other time I remember it being in the garage when they were washing it in Baby.  And I think Chuck put it there in All in the Family when he zapped them back.  Because they didnt' come in through the front door that time.

[catrox14]

10 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Well, that would make it hard for Sam and Dean to get inside themselves.  I think sigils trump keys.  Maybe Sam can install some kind of fingerprint/retinal scanner on the front door (in his spare time, of course!)  Too bad Charlie's not around any more... 

Dean  made the EMF meter out of a walkman, surely he can rig up a scanner. Of course, what they should make are specialized sigils just for themselves. Tech can be broken into, but a secret sigil for each of them probably can't be. Like a spell created from their individual DNA/blood that is more specific than even a fingerprint or retinal scanner. Like they would have to use a combo of a drop of their own blood with a spell that only works for them indiviidulally. Cas' could be made out of a combo of his specific grace and a spell.

Edited September 19, 2017 by catrox14

[Pondlass1]

27 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Dean  made the EMF meter out of a walkman

That ^ was a very long time ago.  He's lost quite a few brain cells since then apparently.  But it remains that the bunker was introduced as this 'special' place but (thanks to wirters) has evolved into a regular ol' bunker where anyone & their aunt can now pop in for a visit.  I hope S&D sleep with guns under their pillows.  That bunker is no fortress.

We still have the fun motels, tho.

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

That ^ was a very long time ago.  He's lost quite a few brain cells since then apparently.

He still fixes the Impala on the regular thus I choose to believe he still has his enginerd brain if he's gone brain dead about other things.  That's why between the two of them they should be able to make some kind of personalized sigil entry system.They could even make a combo electronic/sigil system that's like two factor authetication.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That's why between the two of them they should be able to make some kind of personalized sigil entry system.They could even make a combo electronic/sigil system that's like two factor authetication.

I would think they would have been able to get information on just that from the BMoL.  Seems that's a lot of what they did - blend science with magic.  Sadly, we'll probably never see it in place - cause that would make way too much sense!

[DittyDotDot]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That's why between the two of them they should be able to make some kind of personalized sigil entry system.

Or they could just change the locks and LOCK THE DOOR!! 

[ahrtee]

5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Or they could just change the locks and LOCK THE DOOR!! 

Is there a doorbell for unexpected guests?  (At least, ones they want to see.)

They'd also need a "non-apparate" spell so demons (and angels, if they ever get their wings back) can't just show up inside.

Edited September 19, 2017 by ahrtee

[Jeddah]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

That's another annoying thing.  We almost always see the car parked outside.  We always see them come in through the front.  Yet, when they need the car to be in the garage (Who We Are), it was.  I think the only other time I remember it being in the garage when they were washing it in Baby.  And I think Chuck put it there in All in the Family when he zapped them back.  Because they didnt' come in through the front door that time.

I never thought of that in "All In the Family." After Dean's amazing "People pray to you" speech was he like "Hey, can you zap my car back here?"

We also saw Sam and Cas come in the front door at the end of "Alpha and Omega," but then Baby is magically in the garage when Mary and Dean get there at the beginning of Season 12. Where is the garage? I have a hard time understanding the layout of the bunker.

[SueB]

Just now, Jeddah said:

I never thought of that in "All In the Family." After Dean's amazing "People pray to you" speech was he like "Hey, can you zap my car back here?"

We also saw Sam and Cas come in the front door at the end of "Alpha and Omega," but then Baby is magically in the garage when Mary and Dean get there at the beginning of Season 12. Where is the garage? I have a hard time understanding the layout of the bunker.

Technically, I think one exists, but I prefer to think of it as Hogwarts...where stairways move (and I imagine rooms do to).  Speaking of which... If Sam and Dean had a "room of requirements", what would they desperately need?

[DittyDotDot]

12 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

Where is the garage? I have a hard time understanding the layout of the bunker.

I imagine the door on the outside has a tunnel or hallway that leads to the main inside door we see them come in and out of. So, maybe there's also a hallway from the garage leading to that same door? Which, I'll say again, how they never found the garage until they'd been there for months is still mind-boggling. 

Anyway, there's a great featurette on the bunker on the S9 DVDs. There is some basic floorplans the show works off of--which, it's nice to know they have plans--but I like to think of it as less defined. It helps when there's a continuity problem and makes the bunker more mysterious for me.

Edited September 19, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

16 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Or they could just change the locks and LOCK THE DOOR!! 

Why are you yelling at me? LOL 

Yes, they could and should change the physical locks but that won't keep out the supernatural entities. That's why they need to make personalized entry via magic and technology. They can re-sigil the place and then have an extra layer of entry protection where only those that have the right DNA/grace and the spells can enter. It's in addition to changing the locks.

[catrox14]

17 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

We also saw Sam and Cas come in the front door at the end of "Alpha and Omega," but then Baby is magically in the garage when Mary and Dean get there at the beginning of Season 12. Where is the garage? I have a hard time understanding the layout of the bunker.

They have to climb some steps to get up to the garage. So my head canon is there is a hidden road on the other side of the bunker and the garage door is hidden behind a brick wall or the brick wall can move so Dean backs the Impala in that way so her headlights always face the way out. Then I'm going with Dean has made a lock for that garage that uses Baby's key and no other.  He can open it from the inside or the outside. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[DittyDotDot]

15 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Why are you yelling at me? LOL 

Not yelling at you, I'm yelling at Sam and Dean for not locking their doors, but then being surprised when someone waltzes in.

15 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Yes, they could and should change the physical locks but that won't keep out the supernatural entities. That's why they need to make personalized entry via magic and technology.

Well, the personal sigils are only necessary if they're warding against humans--because the warding would also keep them from accessing the bunker--which I say it would be far simpler to just change the locks and lock the doors. But, no matter what they do, the writers will always find a way around it when they need to.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

Not yelling at you, I'm yelling at Sam and Dean for not locking their doors, but then being surprised when someone waltzes in.

Well, the personal sigils are only necessary if they're warding against humans--because the warding would also keep them from accessing the bunker--which I say it would be far simpler to just change the locks and lock the doors. But, no matter what they do, the writers will always find a way around it when they need to.

Why would the personal sigils keep them from accessing the bunker? I don't understand what you are saying there.  The magic would allow only certain people/entities into the building.  It's blood/grace magic.  They can make it be whatever they want. It would take time and effort but surely Sam and Dean can figure it out

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Why would the personal sigils keep them from accessing the bunker? I don't understand what you are saying there.  The magic would allow only certain people/entities into the building.  It's blood/grace magic.  They can make it be whatever they want. It would take time and effort but surely Sam and Dean can figure it out

No, the personal sigils would allow them to get in, the warding against humans wouldn't...Okay, the conversation was they should use those sigils that trap humans we've seen used by others in the past on the bunker to ward against humans getting in. But then someone pointed out Sam and Dean couldn't get in either; hence the idea for personal sigils to allow Sam and Dean in while still keeping out other humans. But, IMO, if they just change the locks and actually lock the door that would be just as effective and a whole lot easier.

Edited September 19, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, SueB said:

 

.. If Sam and Dean had a "room of requirements", what would they desperately need?

I'm not a Harry Potterr person so that sounds vaguely dirty to me.LOL

[Mick Lady]

Super-wiki has floor plans (not very good), but according to the description it's warded against everything, with devils' traps all over.

http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=Men_of_Letters_Bunker

[Mick Lady]

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

No, the personal sigils would allow them to get in, the warding against humans wouldn't...Okay, the conversation was they should use those sigils that trap humans we've seen used by others in the past on the bunker to ward against humans getting in. But then someone pointed out Sam and Dean couldn't get in either; hence the idea for personal sigils to allow Sam and Dean in while still keeping out other humans. But, IMO, if they just change the locks and actually lock the door that would be just as effective and a whole lot easier.

TripleD, you make a lot of sense but you forgot one very important thing- THE WRITERS!, They wing it, and ignore the lore!

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, Mick Lady said:

TripleD, you make a lot of sense but you forgot one very important thing- THE WRITERS!, They wing it, and ignore the lore!

Heh, oh no I didn't:

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

But, no matter what they do, the writers will always find a way around it when they need to.

Edited September 19, 2017 by DittyDotDot
Had the wrong quote

[Mick Lady]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

But, no matter what they do, the writers will always find a way around it when they need to.

You're right, I missed this! I read the whole thread, but was so worked up over subject, (I could go on forever on this!) that I brain fartted it!

We have several people here, including you, who could write this show so much better than the writers that are working now. (I want Ben Edlund back!) At least we remember the lore, and would respect it.

[DittyDotDot]

11 minutes ago, Mick Lady said:

You're right, I missed this! I read the whole thread, but was so worked up over subject, (I could go on forever on this!) that I brain fartted it!

Oh, I wasn't worried about it, just had to be a smartass. It is my nature, ya know? ;)

[DittyDotDot]

From the Bitterness thread via the All Episodes thread...

21 minutes ago, Airmid said:

I think my confusion comes from when we have instances like Meg where the body dies from its wounds in minutes but then we also have instances like in Jus In Bello where Henriksen's boss is already dead long before the demon is booted out. I was curious if the soul is trapped with the demon or if they ever mentioned if a reaper is able to take the soul once the physical body can no longer stay alive by it's own means. Later on, the boys do mention on whether or not someone was already dead at times when they use the spork but nothing about the soul. (Not going to even touch how stab first, exorcism later became a more common theme in alter seasons outside of this). 

Like I said, I'm sure there's things that don't line up. I'd imagine you don't get a reaper until you're actually dead, not just presumed dead. So, I'd say, yes, the host is trapped in there. Like with Meg, who was thrown out a window earlier in the season, the girl was still trapped in the body with the demon until the boys exorcised her. And, I'd say that Henrikson's boss was the same way--he was trapped in his body until they exorcised the demon--but was presumed dead simply because demons tend to ride their vessels hard.

21 minutes ago, Airmid said:

It never made sense to me that Jimmy was brought back with Cas at the start of S5. The only time anything with Jimmy is ever mentioned, to my knowledge, is when they're dealing with famine and Cas mentions his vessel has cravings even while he, as a celestial being, doesn't. Late season, he's human so he wouldn't be able to suppress Jimmy any more if he was still inside. So shouldn't two be sharing that body?

Yeah, Cass is a tricky one. I used to say Jimmy was probably released when Cass was "exploded" at the end of S4, but then there was the bit about Jimmy's craving of red meat in My Bloody Valentine.

However, Jimmy doesn't actually have to be present for his body to crave something. I mean, if Cass has been possessing him for well over a year and not eaten anything his body could've just been craving nourishment and not been Jimmy's soul that was craving burgers. And, perhaps Cass himself was craving to feel that "happiness" the read meat gave Jimmy since things were pretty bleak for Cass in S5. So, it could be Famine's influence had Cass combining that physical craving his vessel was experiencing with his own desire to feel happy and at peace? 

[catrox14]

25 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

From the Bitterness thread via the All Episodes thread...

Like I said, I'm sure there's things that don't line up. I'd imagine you don't get a reaper until you're actually dead, not just presumed dead. So, I'd say, yes, the host is trapped in there. Like with Meg, who was thrown out a window earlier in the season, the girl was still trapped in the body with the demon until the boys exorcised her. And, I'd say that Henrikson's boss was the same way--he was trapped in his body until they exorcised the demon--but was presumed dead simply because demons tend to ride their vessels hard.

Yeah, Cass is a tricky one. I used to say Jimmy was probably released when Cass was "exploded" at the end of S4, but then there was the bit about Jimmy's craving of red meat in My Bloody Valentine.

However, Jimmy doesn't actually have to be present for his body to crave something. I mean, if Cass has been possessing him for well over a year and not eaten anything his body could've just been craving nourishment and not been Jimmy's soul that was craving burgers. And, perhaps Cass himself was craving to feel that "happiness" the read meat gave Jimmy since things were pretty bleak for Cass in S5. So, it could be Famine's influence had Cass combining that physical craving his vessel was experiencing with his own desire to feel happy and at peace? 

In s12 it was shown that a possessed vessel seems to retain something from the possessor like the dude that had been in a 14 year old girl. Or whichever way that was and he was still spouting her "teenspeak".

IMO if Jimmy was still in Cas in s5, he wasn't after Michael exploded him Swan Song. I think that is when Jimmy went to Heaven and Cas became his own vessel once and for all.

[Wayward Son]

And don’t forget the fact that Castiel mentioned in Two Minutes to Midnight that the doctors assumed he was brain dead prior to waking up, which suggests Cas’ angelic consciousness is the only thing in there. This is why I agree with @DittyDotDot‘s theory that it was his physical body and not Jimmy’s soul craving the burgers. Plus, why would Guck resurrect Jimmy after they were smited by Guck, but not after the Lucifer smiting?

[Airmid]

3 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

And don’t forget the fact that Castiel mentioned in Two Minutes to Midnight that the doctors assumed he was brain dead prior to waking up, which suggests Cas’ angelic consciousness is the only thing in there. This is why I agree with @DittyDotDot‘s theory that it was his physical body and not Jimmy’s soul craving the burgers. Plus, why would Guck resurrect Jimmy after they were smited by Guck, but not after the Lucifer smiting?

 

It's a bit messy since we've been thread jumping. I was originally questioning (among other things) the idea that Jimmy was in Cas at all from the beginning of S5 onwards due to the implications, including the fact that Jimmy was never apparent at the end of S5 which should have been a thing if Jimmy was there.

Now, Guck leaving parts of Jimmy in at this time to help Cas, yeah that's fine in my book. Especially since in season nine they pretty much implied that once an angel is without a co-habituating soul they lose the knowledge said soul possesses. Why? Well, the writers of said episode (Cas should not have been confused/consternated over the things he was in episode three) but there you have it. 

Not to mention the ways Guck has intervened before. It could well be in the realm of possibility that Cas made himself a vegetable (he was willing to go out on their suicide mission for Adam at this point) and Guck made it not so. How Cas even remained in the same nation (and on a shrimping boat no less - get it, shrimp) is a good question. Though the show has been playing fast and loose recently with how far an angel is actually flung when sent away even on earth, so I guess they started early here? 

17 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

From the Bitterness thread via the All Episodes thread...

Like I said, I'm sure there's things that don't line up. I'd imagine you don't get a reaper until you're actually dead, not just presumed dead. So, I'd say, yes, the host is trapped in there. Like with Meg, who was thrown out a window earlier in the season, the girl was still trapped in the body with the demon until the boys exorcised her. And, I'd say that Henrikson's boss was the same way--he was trapped in his body until they exorcised the demon--but was presumed dead simply because demons tend to ride their vessels hard.

I actually went back and found that scene and looked at a transcript. Dean definitely says - "He's probably been dead for months."

How would you know that Dean? Being in a jail cell and all?

Not to mention that if a soul no longer has a viable body regardless of the condition of said body, why would it be able to stay? Is that really outside of Death's domain or that demons are more powerful than reapers? Raphael may have been a dick but he still had his vessels in drooling condition. If he didn't need a vessel to have soul at all why bother? Let alone demons who could care less about humans, well maybe less then angels. 

[catrox14]

The writing on this show is not consistent at all. The angels powers, the nerfing of Cas, who knows what when about what is all over the place. 

Cas craving burgers IMO was nothing more than a plot point to demonstrate that Dean was dead inside because he didn't crave anything and an angel inside a vessel did.  And to set up Sam deciding that Dean has given up and is committing suicide by going to say yes to Michael because Sam heard Famine say that about Dean right before Sam Ipecac'd Famine to death vs Dean making a choice to say yes to fight Lucifer because he thinks Sam is gong to say Yes to Lucifer. That's why it's inconsistent because it was never really that important to Castiel's arc with Jimmy. JMHO

[Airmid]

20 hours ago, catrox14 said:

IMO if Jimmy was still in Cas in s5, he wasn't after Michael exploded him Swan Song. I think that is when Jimmy went to Heaven and Cas became his own vessel once and for all.

 

It was Lucifer that provided the splattery Cas death, not Michael. Both Lucifer and Raphael have killed Cas while Michael and Gabriel did not.

18 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

The writing on this show is not consistent at all. The angels powers, the nerfing of Cas, who knows what when about what is all over the place. 

Cas craving burgers IMO was nothing more than a plot point to demonstrate that Dean was dead inside because he didn't crave anything and an angel inside a vessel did.  And to set up Sam deciding that Dean has given up and is committing suicide by going to say yes to Michael because Sam heard Famine say that about Dean right before Sam Ipecac'd Famine to death vs Dean making a choice to say yes to fight Lucifer because he thinks Sam is gong to say Yes to Lucifer. That's why it's inconsistent because it was never really that important to Castiel's arc with Jimmy. JMHO

It really isn't consistent.

I can buy the angels being depowered a bit from season nine on because they are cut off from heaven and therefore the souls there. (though that raises interesting questions over demons and how some are just more powerful than others beside the MOC). Or if the writers wanted to write Cas as a bit more clueless - in fairness, Cas was pretty clueless even at the end of season eight going grocery shopping. I can see a minor reboot even if it's not my favorite thing.

The sad part is - Cas is so secondary to a lot of the season five stuff. Side character yes but he is also their greatest ally in the averting the end of the world scheme. It's kind of like they gave Cas the story of having an addiction to red meat to be able to sideline him at the end of that whole thing. Like they wrote the end then mashed the other stuff in there to fit. That - well, that just never ends well. 

[catrox14]

43 minutes ago, Airmid said:

It was Lucifer that provided the splattery Cas death, not Michael. Both Lucifer and Raphael have killed Cas while Michael and Gabriel did not.

Huh. I didn't realize I had typed Michael. Guess I had Michael on the brain. But yes I knew it was Lucifer. I've always known it was Lucifer. My point was that Cas was exploded and brought back in his own meatsuit that looks like Jimmy but is no longer Jimmy at all. Doesn't really matter who did for the purpose of that part of the discussion.

48 minutes ago, Airmid said:

The sad part is - Cas is so secondary to a lot of the season five stuff. Side character yes but he is also their greatest ally in the averting the end of the world scheme. It's kind of like they gave Cas the story of having an addiction to red meat to be able to sideline him at the end of that whole thing. Like they wrote the end then mashed the other stuff in there to fit. That - well, that just never ends well. 

I wasn't trying to imply that Cas was secondary to s5. I don't think he was. He was important to taking out the angels in PoNR. He mattered with trying to find God. His friendship with Dean was still important. I'm just saying that for that particular episode, the status of his vessel craving burgers was just to serve that episode and highlight Dean's apparent failures as a human being.  

[Airmid]

24 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I wasn't trying to imply that Cas was secondary to s5. I don't think he was. He was important to taking out the angels in PoNR. He mattered with trying to find God. His friendship with Dean was still important. I'm just saying that for that particular episode, the status of his vessel craving burgers was just to serve that episode and highlight Dean's apparent failures as a human being.  

I didn't mean this at you specifically, more at the other discussion that was being had. Sorry if that was confusing. I would have liked to have seen Cas better portrayed. Even falling he was still kept around for when it was handy and then forgotten about (hello all those undead people) until the very end. I feel like the writers treated him as secondary, not that he should have been. The only good time for me during that season when he was not contactable was when he was severely injured and simply couldn't. Otherwise, he should have at least been able to hear them pray and later on, answer a phone call (which he did do).

Though, I always thought his failing during famine was two fold. 1) Highlight Dean's failure at being alive (this was an angel who figured out how to contact them in heaven, grabbed Adam from heaven and even killed a horseman when he was human let alone lite an archangel on fire but he gives in to famine's physical cravings) and 2) Sam's entrance and salvation.

And I don't mean that as a rib at Sam at all. None whatsoever. I think it's pretty neat that Sam was in the throws of famine, gave in for a moment and still managed to pull through. I think that's a neat character arc for him to reject his past mistakes for his brother. 

I just wish they hadn't said Dean was 'empty' in order to do so. Or had an angel eating raw meat with his hands. It's such a shame that the only time they talk about Cas' vessel post season four is in this way until Cas finally says that the soul hasn't been with him. And then, after years, have him look in on his vessel's family. 

24 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Huh. I didn't realize I had typed Michael. Guess I had Michael on the brain. But yes I knew it was Lucifer. I've always known it was Lucifer. My point was that Cas was exploded and brought back in his own meatsuit that looks like Jimmy but is no longer Jimmy at all. Doesn't really matter who did for the purpose of that part of the discussion.

Meh, you probably just have Michael on the brain because of the reveals recently. I figured you knew who did what - just pointed it out because if we're going to gripe about the lore we should probably have our ducks in a row. :)

[AwesomO4000]

On 10/7/2017 at 10:51 AM, catrox14 said:

The writing on this show is not consistent at all. The angels powers, the nerfing of Cas, who knows what when about what is all over the place. 

Cas craving burgers IMO was nothing more than a plot point to demonstrate that Dean was dead inside because he didn't crave anything and an angel inside a vessel did.  And to set up Sam deciding that Dean has given up and is committing suicide by going to say yes to Michael because Sam heard Famine say that about Dean right before Sam Ipecac'd Famine to death vs Dean making a choice to say yes to fight Lucifer because he thinks Sam is gong to say Yes to Lucifer. That's why it's inconsistent because it was never really that important to Castiel's arc with Jimmy. JMHO

I somewhat disagree with this. It depends on what kind of soul / body dynamic the show is going for. If they are going for a somewhat Buffyesque dynamic of souls and bodies - which in my opinion, they are - then Castiel's Jimmy suit having hamburger cravings makes sense to me. In Buffy the Vampire Slayer, the vampire is informed by the person they inhabit even though the host dies first - so the soul is gone. So some of the host tendencies remain with the brain and the body. This somewhat happened later on this show, too, when Sam was soulless. Soulless Sam still had some Sam-like characteristics. And souls on both Buffy and SPN have their own memory (otherwise neither dead Buffy or dead Dean or Sam would have memories of their time in heaven or hell respectively), so it appears that the whole person is a combination of the two - though I think the soul - or resident (vampire, demon, angel, etc.) - predominates usually. However, with the effects of Famine ramping things up, it makes sense to me that Cas' body's cravings would be exaggerated and come to maybe overwhelm Castiel - who at that point had his own misgivings about finding God, not to mention his physically being cut off from heaven and having just the episode before transported Sam, Dean, and himself through time, using up even more of his reserve.

The rest I'll take to the Dean thread, I think, though I'll understand if anyone wants to respond in the "Bitch/Jerk" thread.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Donatello the soulless prophet of the Lord is bothering me.  Not Donatello himself.  I like him.  The fact that he's soulless and still considered a Prophet of the Lord is what bugs me.  I know this is just my interpretation and others probably disagree and that's okay, but I always thought 'hearing' Chuck's 'call' or whatever was tied to the soul - since the soul is technically a 'part' of Chuck.  (Which is what I interpreted the 'creating souls hurt' line, or something to that effect, from Chuck at the end of S11 to mean - that he literally sliced off a piece of himself to create souls.  Kind of like Voldemort, but not evilly and selfish.) 

I know that in 13x02, Donatello didn't 'hear' Chuck, but felt a wave of power - presumably from Jack.  The problem with that for me is that neither Sam nor Dean, or any other human with a soul in the area felt this wave of power, only the soulless prophet (and maybe angels and demons - but they don't have souls either. ETA: strike the demons thing.  I forgot that demons actually do have twisted demony souls.) felt it.  Well, maybe that's my answer right there.  Donatello sensing Jack's power wasn't the same kind of calling he got when his prophet card was punched, but only soulless beings could sense it.  Which doesn't sound good for Jack.  

Either that, or I'm supposed to take from that that Jack really does have 'god-level' powers, which I'm not okay with either.  I don't mind so much 'the lore' saying that nephilim become more powerful than the angels that sired them (even though I don't recall ever hearing that bit of lore before) but I don't think Jack should have powers equal to Chumara either.  

Edited October 20, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey
I was reminded that demons do have souls!

[Wayward Son]

7 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Donatello the soulless prophet of the Lord is bothering me.  Not Donatello himself.  I like him.  The fact that he's soulless and still considered a Prophet of the Lord is what bugs me.  I know this is just my interpretation and others probably disagree and that's okay, but I always thought 'hearing' Chuck's 'call' or whatever was tied to the soul - since the soul is technically a 'part' of Chuck.  (Which is what I interpreted the 'creating souls hurt' line, or something to that effect, from Chuck at the end of S11 to mean - that he literally sliced off a piece of himself to create souls.  Kind of like Voldemort, but not evilly and selfish.) 

I know that in 13x02, Donatello didn't 'hear' Chuck, but felt a wave of power - presumably from Jack.  The problem with that for me is that neither Sam nor Dean, or anyone else with a soul in the area felt this wave of power, only the soulless prophet (and maybe angels and demons - but they don't have souls either) felt it.  Well, maybe that's my answer right there.  Donatello sensing Jack's power wasn't the same kind of calling he got when his prophet card was punched, but only soulless beings could sense it.  Which doesn't sound good for Jack.  

Either that, or I'm supposed to take from that that Jack really does have 'god-level' powers, which I'm not okay with either.  I don't mind so much 'the lore' saying that nephilim become more powerful than the angels that sired them (even though I don't recall ever hearing that bit of lore before) but I don't think Jack should have powers equal to Chumara either.  

Sorry to be  but picky, but demons actually do have souls. Their souls are just twisted and mutilated souls, but souls nonetheless. In the SN verse people go from human (pure souls as God intended) to Demons (twisted and mutilated through their suffering and inflicting of suffering in the pit).

[Katy M]

11 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I don't mind so much 'the lore' saying that nephilim become more powerful than the angels that sired them (even though I don't recall ever hearing that bit of lore before) but I don't think Jack should have powers equal to Chumara either.  

They did say that Jesse was more powerful than human or demon, so I think itmakes sense that an angel/human hybrid works the same as a demon/human hybrid.  And, I don't think Jack is as powerful as God.  The problem is the show thinks they keep needing to up the stakes every season.  I tend to disagree.  I think they should go back to the roots.  Saving people.  Hunting things.  Family business.  Nowhere in there is there anything about raising nephilim or almost destroying the world in the quest to save each other.  Nowhere.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

11 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Sorry to be  but picky, but demons actually do have souls. Their souls are just twisted and mutilated souls, but souls nonetheless. In the SN verse people go from human (pure souls as God intended) to Demons (twisted and mutilated through their suffering and inflicting of suffering in the pit).

Oh, you're right.  I always forget about that!

[gonzosgirrl]

Lore wtf's quibble with 13x02

• Demons dying in a blaze of white light and burned out eyes when being killed. Since when? These Princes of Hell, formerly known as YEDs, accent on the DEMON part, are demons right? WTF? White light/burned eyes has only ever been related to angelic murders. Demons spark/burn in colours or burn to cinders/smoke. Are they implying Asmodeus is somehow angelic in origin?

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Lore wtf's quibble with 13x02

• Demons dying in a blaze of white light and burned out eyes when being killed. Since when? These Princes of Hell, formerly known as YEDs, accent on the DEMON part, are demons right? WTF? White light/burned eyes has only ever been related to angelic murders. Demons spark/burn in colours or burn to cinders/smoke. Are they implying Asmodeus is somehow angelic in origin?

That would be another retcon, wouldn't it?  Since, iirc, Cain was the first Knight of Hell and then he made the Princes.  Unless he made that Prince from another 'fallen' angel.  I guess it's possible.  But it was never specified before.  Then again, I don't remember if it was ever specified from whom or what Cain made the Princes, so I guess it depends upon to which interpretation of 'retcon' is adhered.  ::sigh::

[gonzosgirrl]

28 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

That would be another retcon, wouldn't it?  Since, iirc, Cain was the first Knight of Hell and then he made the Princes.  Unless he made that Prince from another 'fallen' angel.  I guess it's possible.  But it was never specified before.  Then again, I don't remember if it was ever specified from whom or what Cain made the Princes, so I guess it depends upon to which interpretation of 'retcon' is adhered.  ::sigh::

I roll my eyes so hard it often affects my brain, so I could be wrong here, but I believe Cain made the Knights, Lucifer made the Princes. But nowhere in my recollection was it ever implied that Azazel was anything but a demon. A yellow-eyed demon, ffs. ::sigh:: indeed.

[Wayward Son]

8 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I roll my eyes so hard it often affects my brain, so I could be wrong here, but I believe Cain made the Knights, Lucifer made the Princes. But nowhere in my recollection was it ever implied that Azazel was anything but a demon. A yellow-eyed demon, ffs. ::sigh:: indeed.

It was stated the Knights were 'hand picked by Lucifer' whatever that means and they were then trained/led by Lucifer. My head canon, based on the wording and their eye colour has always been, that the Knights of hell began as regular run of the mill demons hence the black eye colour. They were chosen by Lucifer and given a significant power up and then entrusted into the care of Cain for training on how to use these new powers. 

The Princes of Hell were created by Lucifer though as it is explicitly stated by Crowley that "he turned them himself". 

Edited October 20, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Aeryn13]

Lucifer also turned Cain and Lilith himself. How come they didn`t make Prince or Princess? Lilith was even the first he turned. And he gave Cain the all-important Mark that God gave him himself. Yet somehow four random mofos afterwards are a special class of demons all on their own.   

[gonzosgirrl]

8 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

It was stated the Knights were 'hand picked by Lucifer' whatever that means and they were then trained/led by Lucifer. My head canon, based on the wording and their eye colour has always been, that the Knights of hell began as regular run of the mill demons hence the black eye colour. They were chosen by Lucifer and given a significant power up and then entrusted into the care of Cain for training on how to use these new powers. 

The Princes of Hell were created by Lucifer though as it is explicitly stated by Crowley that "he turned them himself". 

Bottom line being, they are all demons of one flavour or another, thus non-smiting. The white light/burned eyes indicative of angel power shouldn't happen.

[Wayward Son]

14 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Lucifer also turned Cain and Lilith himself. How come they didn`t make Prince or Princess? Lilith was even the first he turned. And he gave Cain the all-important Mark that God gave him himself. Yet somehow four random mofos afterwards are a special class of demons all on their own.   

IMO we are supposed to consider Lilith as above them due to her position as the first and Kripke's description of her as being higher in the hierarchy of hell than Azazel. I can't remember the exact quote, but it was along the lines of "any higher in the hierarchy of hell and you're talking Lucifer". Then there's also Kripke's word in the S3 official companion  'she is generally esteemed as one of the first demons, certainly the first female demon, so we're kind of holding to that; we keep in our heads that that's really what she is, that she very well might have been Adam's first wife and was banished to become a demon. She is older and more powerful than Yellow-Eyes.'" Cain's placement on the hiearchy of hell was a bit of a mess. His sole purpose seemed to be maintaining the mark and training the knights. Beyond that, I don't recall the show ever mentioning his place in the 'politics' of hell.

 

I personally have always assumed it was originally meant to be (before outside factors like the princes choosing to 'retire' or Demons died at the hands of the Winchester's put things in disarray)

• Lilith - Directly below Lucifer and the queen of hell until she died so Lucifer could rise from the cage. Azazel took over for her when she was deep in the pit for some reason the show never experienced. Was she locked in a cage of her own or something who knows?
• Alastair - He was never in charge of hell as a whole, but I always got the impression he was pretty much in charge of production i.e. transforming souls into Demons through torture. So he was the king of his own little sub-section 'the grand picazzo'. 
• The Princes of Hell 
• Cain
• The Knights of Hell
• Crossroad Demons
• Regular run of the mill black eyed demons. 

Edited October 20, 2017 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

My head canons:

Since Lucifer made Lilith, the first demon with white eyes, IMO they are white because he was the "light bringer". Then he used Lilith to try breed a demon/angel hybrid with him and those are the Princes of Hell with yellow eyes.

Alastair had white eyes too, so I think maybe Lilith and Alastair were made together. Alastair became Hell's master torturer under Lucifer and he was tasked with making humans into demons via torment which is why they have black eyes.

My other headcanon is that somehow Spawn's existence and opening the rift to the AU has changed the powers of angels, demons and reapers.

see also: I got nuthin' LOL

Edited October 20, 2017 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Cain's placement on the hiearchy of hell was a bit of a mess. His sole purpose seemed to be maintaining the mark and training the knights. Beyond that, I don't recall the show ever mentioning his place in the 'politics' of hell.

I think he ran kinda parallel to everything else. Lucifer knew how important the Mark was and what it actually did, he probably went like "you do your thing over there, Cain, it`s fine". And after he went away into the Cage, Lilith ruled hell but I think Cain still mostly did his thing "over there", so to speak. 

[Wayward Son]

2 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think he ran kinda parallel to everything else. Lucifer knew how important the Mark was and what it actually did, he probably went like "you do your thing over there, Cain, it`s fine". And after he went away into the Cage, Lilith ruled hell but I think Cain still mostly did his thing "over there", so to speak. 

I agree with this :). 

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

That would be another retcon, wouldn't it?  Since, iirc, Cain was the first Knight of Hell and then he made the Princes.  Unless he made that Prince from another 'fallen' angel.  I guess it's possible.  But it was never specified before.  Then again, I don't remember if it was ever specified from whom or what Cain made the Princes, so I guess it depends upon to which interpretation of 'retcon' is adhered.  ::sigh::

There was some spec about this last season, but I don't know if it's supported by the show. My recollection is that Cain made the Knights, Lucifer made the Princes.

I was confused at first too, but I think the demons being "smited" by Asmodeus was just simply meant to show us he was more powerful than the average demon and maybe above par with an average angel. Back in S4 Alistair could stand toe to toe with the average angel and he wasn't a Prince, so they probably just felt like they had to make it clear his power level. Stupid show. 

42 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

It was stated the Knights were 'hand picked by Lucifer' whatever that means and they were then trained/led by Lucifer.  

The Knights were hand-picked, trained and led by Cain.

Edited October 20, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Wayward Son]

6 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

The Knights were hand-picked, trained and led by Cain.

According to Henry Winchester they were picked by Lucifer. 

 

Quote

HENRY: Knights of Hell are hand-picked by Lucifer himself. They are of the first-fallen, first-born demons.

Source: Super Wiki transcript for As Time Goes by http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=8.12_As_Time_Goes_By_(transcript)

[DittyDotDot]

8 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

According to Henry Winchester they were picked by Lucifer. 

 

Source: Super Wiki transcript for As Time Goes by http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=8.12_As_Time_Goes_By_(transcript)

Right, but,Cain--who actually lived it, not read it in a book not to mention came later when they needed to add more to the lore--said it was he who trained them and built the entire order.

From First Born: "If your friend here could talk, he would tell you that I trained the Knights of Hell. I built that entire demonic order with my own hands -- Abaddon included."

[RulerofallIsurvey]

18 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

There was some spec about this last season, but I don't know if it's supported by the show. My recollection is that Cain made the Knights, Lucifer made the Princes.

I think I was getting Princes and Knights confused.  (Hey, sue me!  I'm not up on Arthurian feudalism. ;) )  So to the wiki! http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/

Quote

The Princes of Hell were the first generation of demons created by the archangel Lucifer after the creation of Lilith[1] and before the Knights of Hell.[2] Crowleyfurther stated that they were made prior to the sinking of Atlantis in ancient times, dating as far back as 360 BC. The Princes of Hell were Azazel, Ramiel, Asmodeus, and their sister Dagon.[1]

And:

Quote

The Knights of Hell are demons who were handpicked by Lucifer from among the first fallen humans to be made into demons, the first of which was Cain, who in turn trained the Knights and built the entire order with his own hands

About Cain:

Quote

Cain was the first born son of Adam and Eve. 

And then there's Eve:

Quote

Eve is a primordial creature born of Purgatory, and first walked the Earth some 10,000 years ago

So does that mean Cain was actually a human/primordial-creature-born-of-Purgatory hybrid?  Interesting...

But back to @gonzosgirrl's original complaint about the demon smiting with white light and burned out eyes - even though the wiki says that Princes can kill angels (I also have a problem with this, but it's canon, I guess) the burned out eyes are a little much.  Maybe it's because they were the first created by Lucifer, and archangel more powerful than a regular angel, and therefore have the most juice.  Otherwise, I got nuthin'.  

[Wayward Son]

10 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Right, but,Cain--who actually lived it, not read it in a book not to mention came later when they needed to add more to the lore--said it was he who trained them and built the entire order.

From First Born: "If your friend here could talk, he would tell you that I trained the Knights of Hell. I built that entire demonic order with my own hands -- Abaddon included."

Ah, ok, I’d forgotten that quote from Cain. Thanks for clarifying :)

[catrox14]

I'm going with Lucifer picked them and  Cain trained them thus Cain is still correct in saying he built the order with his son hands. He schooled them in all the ways to kill and wreak havoc. So Henry wasn't wrong necessarily he just didn't know the whole story.