Season 4 Discussion

[AngelaHunter]

Quote

can we add Lily to your "Bad Parents of the ZA" list? She drove me crazy, just letting Megan play in the mud about 50 feet away from her

 

What about her deciding to get it on with Philip/Brian with her daughter sleeping two feet away? Even he showed some concern about doing it, but she was all like, "Eh, no problem!"

 

I mean, I kind of don't blame her  (Yeah, I know but there it is) but could have at least taken it outside.

Edited September 9, 2014 by AngelaHunter

[ghoulina]

Yea, that part did skeeve me out. I try to remember that in "the olden days" families often shared beds and it wasn't uncommon for children to have heard/seen coitus from a young age. But Megan didn't grow up in that world and that would not have been something she was used to. So yea, find a guard tower to use or something!

[mandolin]

Rick and Lori did the same thing in episode 2 I think, when they are reunited. Carl is on the cot next to them in the tent and she's all, "he won't wake up." 

[ghoulina]

That was only SLIGHTLY better. Since their bodies weren't literally going to be touching his. 

[ladyrott]

Yea, that part did skeeve me out. I try to remember that in "the olden days" families often shared beds and it wasn't uncommon for children to have heard/seen coitus from a young age. But Megan didn't grow up in that world and that would not have been something she was used to. So yea, find a guard tower to use or something!Yea, that part did skeeve me out. I try to remember that in "the olden days" families often shared beds and it wasn't uncommon for children to have heard/seen coitus from a young age. But Megan didn't grow up in that world and that would not have been something she was used to. So yea, find a guard tower to use or something!

 

 

Well, perhaps ol' Megan was a bit promiscuous even before the ZA and used to boff her dates with no regard to her daughter's whereabouts.  I am only halfway kidding in that...I have watched way too many movies with "slutty" mom screwing date while kid peeks around corner watching.

[kikismom]

I guess it didn't bother me because the kid didn't seem too swift on the uptake anyway. I mean she's what--12 years old? And she's making mud pies? Really?

(Excuse me, she was making "PEAnudBUDderSAMmiches, Uncle Brian!" )

Jeez, they couldn't kill her off fast enough for me.

[kj4ever]

Rick and Lori did the same thing in episode 2 I think, when they are reunited. Carl is on the cot next to them in the tent and she's all, "he won't wake up." 

I wonder how much practice she got with Shane to know that ;)~

[ghoulina]

I watched "Claimed" this morning (almost done with my marathon!). I still think this is one of the tenser episodes of the series, and not a walker involved. But when Rick was trapped in that house with the Merletones I was on the edge of my seat the entire time, even after seeing it twice before. His fear is palpable. And I also love the connection between Michonne and Carl, so seeing them bond over their similar losses is very moving. 

 

I still want to know what in the heck was up with the side braid painting in that house Michonne and Carl went to. It was all wrapped up and placed in front of the door that led to the children's rooms. But it had clearly been destroyed before it was wrapped up - the woman's face violated. Did the mom kill her family, then paint the picture, then go back and kill herself? 

[mandolin]

That picture was weird, ghoulina. I don't know the purpose of it in the show, but I saw on some fan site that it looks like Lizzie. There's another painting of flowers (look at them!) and a dog as well. Maybe foreshadowing for later episodes in season 4.

 

(Also, the puzzle Tyrese and Carol put together was a photo of Sophia in her unicorn shirt. I think I remember reading that neither actor knew that until after they finished filming.)

[kj4ever]

I watched "Claimed" this morning (almost done with my marathon!). I still think this is one of the tenser episodes of the series, and not a walker involved. But when Rick was trapped in that house with the Merletones I was on the edge of my seat the entire time, even after seeing it twice before. His fear is palpable. And I also love the connection between Michonne and Carl, so seeing them bond over their similar losses is very moving. 

 

I still want to know what in the heck was up with the side braid painting in that house Michonne and Carl went to. It was all wrapped up and placed in front of the door that led to the children's rooms. But it had clearly been destroyed before it was wrapped up - the woman's face violated. Did the mom kill her family, then paint the picture, then go back and kill herself? 

I couldn't help but feel like I was supposed to know what the side braid painting was by the way that Michonne acted when she saw it.  She looked at it and rushed into the room to check it out before Carl, like she didn't want him to see.  I always thought it was one of those over-my-head things put there to make me feel stoopid.

 

Michonne makes me tolerate Carl, which is saying a lot.  Maybe that's because he behaves himself around her because he knows she is so not going to stand for his shit.  Michonne and God help me Shane were probably the best parents Carl has had on this show.

[ghoulina]

That picture was weird, ghoulina. I don't know the purpose of it in the show, but I saw on some fan site that it looks like Lizzie. There's another painting of flowers (look at them!) and a dog as well. Maybe foreshadowing for later episodes in season 4.

 

Yea, there was a lot made of the picture looking like Lizzie over on TWOP. Some likened it to Terminus Mary as well. Basically, side braid = BAD. 

 

Yes, they had the sunflower painting (Terminus), the mangy dog (funeral home), and bunnies (killed by Lizzie) on the wall. 

 

I couldn't help but feel like I was supposed to know what the side braid painting was by the way that Michonne acted when she saw it.  She looked at it and rushed into the room to check it out before Carl, like she didn't want him to see.

 

Well, the original painting had obviously been disfigured. It looked like something a suicidal person would do their self portrait, or a homicidal person to a portrait of someone else. The way it was set in front of the door, like it was blocking it, must have just tipped Michonne off to the fact that something had gone down in there. I just can't quite wrap my mind around WHAT. It's obvious that a woman killed her family and then herself. But what was up with the painting? When did she do it? And then why wrap it up like she was sending if off to auction? I know it's so minor it probably doesn't warrant this much curiosity, but my brain likes to go off on tangents. 

[kikismom]

That picture was weird, ghoulina. I don't know the purpose of it in the show, but I saw on some fan site that it looks like Lizzie. There's another painting of flowers (look at them!) and a dog as well.

It is a dog is barking at the moon, which is an expression for futile effort. There is also a Polish idiom "the moon doesn't care for barking dogs" which means you can be unhappy and express your dissatisfaction with something bigger, but there is nothing you can do about it and it has no effect. Usually used I think with political/government decisions that people don't like.

Yea, there was a lot made of the picture looking like Lizzie over on TWOP. Some likened it to Terminus Mary as well. Basically, side braid = BAD. 

 

Yes, they had the sunflower painting (Terminus), the mangy dog (funeral home), and bunnies (killed by Lizzie) on the wall. 

 

 

 

 

Well, the original painting had obviously been disfigured. It looked like something a suicidal person would do their self portrait, or a homicidal person to a portrait of someone else. The way it was set in front of the door, like it was blocking it, must have just tipped Michonne off to the fact that something had gone down in there. I just can't quite wrap my mind around WHAT. It's obvious that a woman killed her family and then herself.

But I would ask...if the woman killed herself, how did she get the painting to lean against the outside of the door?

[ghoulina]

But I would ask...if the woman killed herself, how did she get the painting to lean against the outside of the door?

 

Right???? I have thought that several times myself. The whole thing is so weird and I need to know more. Maybe there was another entrance to the pink room? In all of those old houses they were in (which, by the by, the ZA has me really hoping I can upgrade my home!), there seemed to be a lot of rooms with two doors. At any rate, someone needs to do a webisode for this family and help me sort it out. 

[kikismom]

Does anyone else wonder to about the map motif? Michonne is seen looking at a map for Macon (or Macon County, not the same thing), and the Governor is in the trailer looking at a map with darker lines like the Terminus map all leading to the dot in the middle...and he mutters something (perhaps someone could understand what he said).

We already know that Terminus had the same patio umbrella that the Governor had; perhaps a coincidence or the TWD crew gaslighting us, but any way all this could tie together?

[ghoulina]

You know, I only briefly entertained something along those lines when rewatching this time around, when Guv had the map out - like you said. But it was only a fleeting thought. That might warrant some more speculation, though. 

[mandolin]

I couldn't remember if all that spec was from twop or not. I did not know the Gov's umbrella was at Terminus! Nice. It is amazing how much thought goes into this stuff on the writers' parts.

I do think the pink room had two entrances. Didn't Michonne walk through a bathroom to get there?

[Watcher0363]

1st- loved the sex with the kids in the room stuff. I first read it while I was at work, could not stop laughing.

 

2nd- One of the shows with a panel after season 4. Disscussed that they had more story to tell but did not have enough time. Such as, they had backstory to the funeral home man and how he died. Which was a familiar ZA death, he was out doing something simple and ended up dead.

 

3rd- Old wooden Southern Homes. One of my grandmothers had one. They were able to convert it into two downstairs small apts. With the main part of the house having four connected bedrooms upstairs. Doors everywhere in that house.

[kikismom]

 I did not know the Gov's umbrella was at Terminus! Nice.

http://media.comicbook.com/uploads1/2014/06/the-governor-terminus-easter-egg-100288.png

[Ocean Chick]

I believe that Michonne first went into a playroom (blue?).  That was the room that had the door the painting was leaning against.  She went through a different door to the pink room with the bodies in it.  I believe there was a separate door to the hallway from the pink room, so yes, whoever put the painting there could have leaned it against the blue room door and then entered the pink room by a different door.

 

I think the umbrella was a re-used prop, as it looks like the type of umbrella that is sold by the thousands in multiple stores throughout a given area.  I don't think they meant it to be seen as The Gov's umbrella.

[ghoulina]

Well, the Termites seem to love scavenging. Perhaps someone just picked it up from his abandoned camp?

[mandolin]

With all the other items they had at Terminus, I think they intended it to be the same. LOVE it.

[kikismom]

With all the other items they had at Terminus, I think they intended it to be the same. LOVE it.

 

 

I think the umbrella was a re-used prop, as it looks like the type of umbrella that is sold by the thousands in multiple stores throughout a given area.  I don't think they meant it to be seen as The Gov's umbrella.

I also think it was meant to be seen as the same one; those sweaters and backpacks and riot gear vests etc are the type that are sold by the thousands...but we know they weren't scavenged from another source and just coincidentally were the same.

[Timetoread]

Well, the original painting had obviously been disfigured. It looked like something a suicidal person would do their self portrait, or a homicidal person to a portrait of someone else. The way it was set in front of the door, like it was blocking it, must have just tipped Michonne off to the fact that something had gone down in there. I just can't quite wrap my mind around WHAT. It's obvious that a woman killed her family and then herself. But what was up with the painting? When did she do it? And then why wrap it up like she was sending if off to auction? I know it's so minor it probably doesn't warrant this much curiosity, but my brain likes to go off on tangents.

 

I don't know why, but I interpreted it as the "artist" having killed the kids in the room but didn't commit suicide.  She painted or mutilated her self-portrait to reflect her mental state and then wrapped it up in front of the entrance to show WHO responsible for the carnage inside.  Then (and I'll admit I was tipped off by the internet) we meet Mary at Terminus and she is a dead ringer for the for painting chick.  I think Mary is the artist and the family annihilator.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Dougal
Quote formatting.

[Iguessnot]

But the body in the chair had a side braid.

[kikismom]

Lot's of interesting theories.

IMHO---

I felt the painting had been in the house before as a picture done by the same artist who did the others.

The painting was not wrapped to send for sale or auction; it was wrapped for someone to find but not as a nice present; but as a final F@CK YOU to lead to the discovery behind the door. It was defaced and wrapped by someone in the family before the family "opt-out"...so I believe Terminus Mary may have been the grandmother, the family dead in the room her daughter and her family, and before all the SHTF Grandma Mary who keeps sunflowers and does artsy-craftsy stuff had made a self-portrait for her daughter and kids. Perhaps she gave the paintings as presents for birthdays---a sunflower, a picture of bunnies etc. Then stuff started and somehow, Terminus Mary is responsible for the tragedy in some way:

• Did Mary start the disease somehow?
• Did Mary prevent them from evacuating?
• What if the daughter came home and found that Grandma had killed the kids to "put them to sleep" before the world went to hell?

I just got a feeling the painting was screaming I hate you, I blame you,  open this door and look what you've done!

 

There are people who kill their families and themselves because they think the end of the world is coming. But the sunflower etc makes me think Mary is connected, and with the Governor looking at a map with 5 lines leading to a spot just like the maps to Terminus...I  think there might be something that ties all this together.

 

Or the TWD crew is just screwing with us.

Edited September 12, 2014 by kikismom

[ghoulina]

I love all of that, kikismom! Mary being the Grandma could make sense, because I definitely don't see her as the mother. You need to pitch this idea to AMC and make a webisode out of it.

Edited September 12, 2014 by ghoulina

[kikismom]

Weirdest thing; they are playing old episodes of BlueBloods on tv tonight, and here comes this one about a serial killer who's using "green" (eco-friendly) bullets and eating organic food and killing people who drive gas-guzzlers. So they find this eco-warrior-terrorist type who prints pamphlets or something that the only way to heal our Mother Earth is to wipe out the human race. And it's nothing to feel bad about because the humans aren't innocent victims, they are guilty of murdering Mother Earth.

Just made me think it would be wild if the walker disease was a bio-weapon by people who are really crazy hippie tree-hugger wackos coming up with a way to wipe out the guilty human race---notice how the zombie infection is not affecting or contagious to animals or birds or fish?

Terminus Mary was a bit of a hippie Earth Mother type, huh?

[ghoulina]

I still think Bob started it. What's in the box, Bob????

[AngelaHunter]

But when Rick was trapped in that house with the Merletones I was on the edge of my seat the entire time,

 

I swear I couldn't breathe. This suspense in this segment was right up there with the best of Hitchcock. I was doing a rewatch lately and I simply had to turn it off there. The fact that Rick was so scared made it just that much more real and. There's something about him anyway that makes me feel pity and seeing him - after the near-fatal ass kicking he got -  do something so normal as read a book in bed thinking he's finally found some refuge, if only temporarily, really got to me.

[Watcher0363]

I swear I couldn't breathe. This suspense in this segment was right up there with the best of Hitchcock. I was doing a rewatch lately and I simply had to turn it off there. The fact that Rick was so scared made it just that much more real and. There's something about him anyway that makes me feel pity and seeing him - after the near-fatal ass kicking he got -  do something so normal as read a book in bed thinking he's finally found some refuge, if only temporarily, really got to me.

If you really want that scene to pack a punch. After watching it, watch the promo for the upcoming season where Rick is telling Carl you are never safe and it takes only one second.

[ghoulina]

That scene was just so well done - to have me THAT on edge about Rick. RICK. I mean, he's about 90% safe on this show, IMO. But in that moment, I was so worried he would die. I also tend to think Carl is pretty damn safe, probably more safe than Rick actually. But in that final scene in "A" when they had him walk last to the train car, I was so tense. I kept picturing them shooting him right in front of his dad. I was a nervous wreck. 

[kikismom]

This is not a big deal but I did notice something new.

When the Governor, Martinez, Mitch and his brother Pete are at the cabin, right as Mitch brings out a box of canned food and some cans of beer, the camera cuts to Pete.

He is standing up, and grabs a beer before sitting down...in that 2 second shot there is the damn umbrella. No joke. The Terminus umbrella. The umbrella that was at the RV camp picnic table. At the picnic table by the RV before these four guys go on the supply run to the cabin.

Okay, I know there could be an argument that everybody in Georgia had bought the same umbrella at Kmart...but who the hell needs a big patio umbrella indoors? The patio umbrella (closed) is inside the cabin, in the living room! And there's no reason for the show's prop people to have this same umbrella or even a different one in somebody's living room.

Just weird.

Oh and to my eyes looking again, the Gov's map was the same as the Terminus map. We didn't notice during the show because that episode is in the front 8 of the season, neither we nor the characters in our CDB group see the Terminus map till the back eight.

Had to be deliberate. But part of the story as Gimple said the story of Terminus would be revealed, or just the show yanking us?

When the Gov says we can find a better place to live, he looks at the dot at the center of the same lines on the map.

Edited September 16, 2014 by kikismom

[AngelaHunter]

I never noticed what was on the map the Gov was looking at. Just finished rewatching episode 12, and now must go back a little further.

 

As for the patio umbrella, could be the same one or could be just some lazy "Ah, no one will notice!" staff, something that caused a lot of audience eye rolls on "Dexter".

[kikismom]

Yeah, although that's kind of what I meant about why would you bother putting one in the set of a living room? They may re-use stuff; I know they re-use walkers lol...but they wouldn't put a kitchen sink in the woods or a horse in the schoolbus. It may just be the "easter egg" type of wink (like the photos of the country club board members are photos of guys on the crew). Same with the map. Maybe it's just lots of red herrings.

[Watcher0363]

1st they had us trying to spot the pineapple. Now the Umbrella Umbrella Um-bre-lla.

[kikismom]

Remember the game "tse-tse fly"? That would be fun to have, but isn't the show tricky enough; sometimes the crew is so aware and trying to throw us off track that it gets carried away. That was the strategy on Lost; keep fans busy while they tried to figure out how to end it.

[JackONeill]

Over at Lost, the producers were so busy keeping the fans off base, they didn't have time to stay on base themselves.

[kikismom]

I've wondered before why they didn't get a roll of wire on one of those runs to tighten the support poles for the fence.

I also think that it could cheaply and easily have solved some of their other problems.

 

1. Run a length of wire from a rooftop at the prison, or the tower, to high up on a tree 50 yards or so away.
2. At the prison end of the wire, tie (wind) loops every so often to be able to change the height or tension of the wire.
3. Don't fix the prison end permanently; use a snap hook to attach it to a pipe or ring or something so it is detachable.
4. Give a job to some of those useless redshirts--take kudzu vines (I know, but I keep saying it because it's everywhere--use what you've got as much as you can) and dry it--it becomes very tough. Then make net bags of it. Like onion bags. Make smaller holes so the rats can't get out. Yes the rats will chew their way through eventually but that's the point.
5. Detach the prison end of the wire on the rooftop, slide on a net bag of rats (jeez if Lizzie can catch them, anyone can) and let the bag run down the wire partway over the field. Use the suitable loop on the prison end of the wire to snaphook the wire at a good height--just above the walkers reaching hands.
6. This would lure the walkers away from the fence. The screeching wiggling bag of rats fighting and biting to get out--maybe even some blood droplets!---would keep the walkers busy for a while.
7. You could repair the fence better when they aren't leaning on it. But it could be additional wires for other reasons:  by the front gate outwards--so that Michonne and her horse could come in safely for instance. From the back fence sideways---so Carol or whoever could fix the water intake hose, or Rick could go out and check his traps and snares.
8. If the walker "cluster" was always at one spot because Lizzie was feeding them, it would stand to reason that the walkers do learn something basic. Eventually you could perhaps get them in the habit of standing around certain spots in the fields where you could slide the "ratbag" (even mark it with something like a spray paint X or something.)

Edited September 19, 2014 by kikismom

[ladyrott]

kikismom, I want to be wherever you are when the ZA hits.   That is a brilliant idea!

[kikismom]

kikismom, I want to be wherever you are when the ZA hits.   That is a brilliant idea!

Wouldn't it be fun to say:

        "Hey Lizzie? Do you like to feed rats to the walkers? Want to play Skyway to Tomorrowland? Get in this bag!"

 

I'm not brilliant. But I'm cruel!

[AngelaHunter]

I'm not brilliant. But I'm cruel!

 

I'm horrified at the cruelty to rats. Lizzie, not so much. Yeah - "Hop in the bag, dear. I promise it'll be fun!"

[ladyrott]

Hey Lizzie, look at the pretty flowers we put in the bag....look at the flowers, Lizzie, and climb on in.

[AngelaHunter]

Hey Lizzie, look at the pretty flowers we put in the bag....look at the flowers, Lizzie, and climb on in.

 

Not taking any chances, are you? That made me LOL.

[kj4ever]

You know after rewatch I'm really finding Patrick's character interesting and wish we knew more.  I don't know how old he was supposed to be - presumably young enough to be Carl's friend - but he did seem to be all alone.  They never showed his parents or guardians or anything like that.  I'm wondering if the whole "story time" was less about him being immature and more about him wanting to learn to protect himself.  It seems like they were doing story time for awhile, and I wonder if him telling Carl that it was kid's stuff that he wouldn't like it was his way of making sure story time continued.

[kikismom]

You know after rewatch I'm really finding Patrick's character interesting and wish we knew more.  I don't know how old he was supposed to be - presumably young enough to be Carl's friend - but he did seem to be all alone.  They never showed his parents or guardians or anything like that.  I'm wondering if the whole "story time" was less about him being immature and more about him wanting to learn to protect himself.  It seems like they were doing story time for awhile, and I wonder if him telling Carl that it was kid's stuff that he wouldn't like it was his way of making sure story time continued.

Intriguing idea!

 

Here's the official line; the sections at the lower part of the page are worth catching for how the show writers consider Patrick's relationships.

http://walkingdead.wikia.com/wiki/Patrick

 

He is also described as mid to late teens, and apologizing for playing with Legos which are for children up to 12 years old. He might have been a few years older than Carl and Lizzie.

I find the show's portrayal of schoolchildren fascinating in a loopy way--Lizzie is 12, Sophia was 12, Carl is some mysterious limbo-age that never matches up with how much time has gone by in the show. Megan was 12, and made mud pies. Mika was 10 and from one episode to the next could be more worldly aware than Carol, then another episode be christening a rag doll "Grizelda Gunderson" with the same emotional affect of Dodie on My Three Sons.

I was surprised to find out that Luke and Molly were like 8 and 10; frankly I thought Luke was around 6.

 

I wonder how old a kid has to get on TWD to reach puberty.

[kj4ever]

Thanks for the link! Yes, consistent isn't their forte for sure when it comes to kids.

I just think a storyline with a kid that isn't quite a child but not an adult being on their own could be fascinating. How terrifying for that kid....I think Patrick was a nice kid, but was overly grateful because of his situation.

[ghoulina]

Patrick kind of creeped me out, because there was ALMOST like a little thing going with him and Mika. And it was quite clear, to me, that the dude was at least 14. And I took her for about 8, not 10. I'm a horrible judge of ages. Always have been. So I usually just brush off my assumptions, because I bet they're way off.

[6 MeowMeowBeenz]

Maybe after the ZA kids either grow up way too fast or regress into earlier childhood when they were safe and life was pleasant

 

Or go BSC a la Lizzie, who apparently had a head start 

[lulee]

I guess it didn't bother me because the kid didn't seem too swift on the uptake anyway. I mean she's what--12 years old? And she's making mud pies? Really?

(Excuse me, she was making "PEAnudBUDderSAMmiches, Uncle Brian!" )

Jeez, they couldn't kill her off fast enough for me.

Not to be all pro-mudpie but Meghan seemed a lot younger to me. Maybe 7 or 8. And someone posted a link to a q&a at a panel that she was on and Chandler Riggs, the girl who played Sophia, and maybe even one other young'un were on (maybe one of the Grove girls), and I remember thinking how she seemed sooo much younger than the others.

Anyway, on marathon rewatch, I wish they'd dialed back on Abraham and Eugene when they were introduced. Not so much on the "SAVING THE WHOLE DAMN WORLD!!!" with Dr. Eugene Porter who talks about undead ankylosaurs going after diplodochus. Same story line, just dialed back.

[kikismom]

Not to be all pro-mudpie but Meghan seemed a lot younger to me. Maybe 7 or 8.

We were both wrong--she was 10 years old when she did TWD!