All Episodes Talk: Breadstix

[jaytee1812]

You could say the exact same for the season 4 noobs, though. Except, they were actually playing archetypes of old characters, whereas the season 6 noobs aren't.

Did the season 6 noobs have characters? The season 4 noobs weren't replacing actors who had been fired. Or they were on screen a lot for people who had been fired.

Edited March 24, 2015 by jaytee1812

[fakeempress]

 

I think they told us that I don't think they showed it. Plus I preferred the noobs to the originals.

So who is and isn't a replacement depends on whom we personally happen to like? Because they neither showed nor told us that Roderick replaced Unique.

[Ceeg]

Did the season 6 noobs have characters? The season 4 noobs weren't replacing actors who had been fired. Or they were on screen a lot for people who had been fired.

 

3 episodes out of 22 = a lot?

[jaytee1812]

So who is and isn't a replacement depends on whom we personally happen to like? Because they neither showed nor told us that Roderick replaced Unique.

Yeah seems like it on this forum.

Who else had a big belting voice. Okay technically Roderick didn't but they tried to tell us he did with that awful awful version of Mustang Sally.

3 episodes out of 22 = a lot?

Lea was in 22. Yet Melissa 'replaced' her.

22 too many for me. I think I'd rather watch Roderick.

[Ceeg]

I am honestly so, so confused. Even if you don't think Roderick sounds like Otis Redding, he still has a rough blue-eyed soul type sound and is a solid baritone. Unique has the vocal range of Rachel, with a gospel sound. Their voices and characters are literally nothing alike. Actually, I would say that Unique and Roderick are almost complete opposites. I can't think of any two characters on this show with more conflicting personal styles, personal issues, and personality.

 

 

Lea was in 22. Yet Melissa 'replaced' her.

 

Lea was not actually in 22 episodes in season 4. The only characters in all 22 episodes were the high school kids.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Ceeg

[Mnem]

Obviously Lea and Melissa are just as bad on that score, only Melissa doesn't pretend otherwise.

Usually I just roll and scroll, but unless I'm actually missing a stray quote or instance, when has Lea, who has often joked about her spastic dancing and noodle arms, ever pretended otherwise? I get that you have strong opinions, this one in particular I can't help but vehemently disagree with, but sometimes you have to actually back them up with facts.

[Cranberry]

Marley was pretty much a friendless loser at the beginning, with aspirations of moving to New York and becoming a famous singer. She was taunted by Christian cheerleader Kitty, and eventually romanced by "bad boy" Jake (who also dated the cheerleader for a while) and sensitive jock Ryder. She ended up becoming close friends with diva Unique. Switch those names out for Rachel, Quinn, Puck, Finn, and Mercedes, and you could be describing season one of Glee.

 

No one's saying that Marley and co. weren't talented. I liked all of them. But they were filling the exact slots -- talented loser, bitchy cheerleader, womanizing bad boy, jock with a heart of gold, brassy diva -- vacated by the originals. It baffles me that you can't see that, yet you think that Roderick is a lesser copy of Unique simply because they both (supposedly) have a big belting voice.

[dizzyizzy01]

Even the old cast regulars who were still on contract (Lea, Naya, and Chris) weren't present in a lot of S4 episodes.  Naya didn't show up until halfway through S4 basically.

 

I don't know how one can claim S4 weren't "replacements" of some of the OG cast, when you literally have people calling Unique, Mercedes, and Marley at one point being referred to as the "New Rachel".  Jake is literally a Puckerman v2.

Edited March 24, 2015 by dizzyizzy01

[SNeaker]

Whether or not certain cast members were still on the show, the first set of noobs all filled specific holes in the choir room from when the previous group graduated. They fulfilled those exact archetypes.

 

The new noobs were not direct replacements for the old noobs. They were, as far as I could tell, an attempt to wipe the slate clean and start off with a fresh group of newbies who were more distinct in personality and style rather than retreads.

[fakeempress]

 

Yeah seems like it on this forum.

Not the forum, I meant you. You like Noobs 1.0 so you don't treat them as replacements of the originals - even if Jake is Puck's bad boy brother, I mean how much more carbon copy can Jake get? But because you don't like Noobs 2.0,you say they are the replacements even though there are no similarities between them and the previous group or the originals at all. Strange. 

Edited March 24, 2015 by fakeempress

[jaytee1812]

No one's saying that Marley and co. weren't talented. I liked all of them..

You might not, but others say it all the time.

Jake is literally a Puckerman v2.

That would be his name.

The new noobs were not direct replacements for the old noobs. They were, as far as I could tell, an attempt to wipe the slate clean and start off with a fresh group of newbies who were more distinct in personality and style rather than retreads.

A mousy brunette, a womaniser, a jock, a diva, and Jane.

They made Jake white and Ryder gay, I'll give them that change.

[AndySmith]

I loved Roderick's version of Mustang Sally.

 

Anyway, i do think we're getting a bit off topic here, or at least, not in the right forum...

[Cranberry]

Is Madison supposed to be the mousy brunette? She seems more strident to me. Which one is the womanizer? Who's the diva?

And yeah, I'll move all of this over to the... I need to figure out which thread, heh.

[Ceeg]

A mousy brunette, a womaniser, a jock, a diva, and Jane.

 

I think maybe part of the problem is you're basing your judgment on these characters, when you've admitted you haven't even watched most of this season. How can you form opinions on these new kids, if you skip most of their scenes?

[jaytee1812]

Not the forum, I meant you. You like Noobs 1.0 so you don't treat them as replacements of the originals - even if Jake is Puck's bad boy brother, I mean how much more carbon copy can Jake get? But because you don't like Noobs 2.0,you say they are the replacements even though there are no similarities between them and the previous group or the originals at all. Strange.

I don't remember Puck studying dance, giving a crap about his mom, or his best friend, I don't remember him standing up for LGBT kids (but I will be corrected I'm sure). I don't remember Jake calling anyone's mom a slut, or ending up in juvie.

They didn't replace the originals, the originals were still there even after the noobs had gone. You can replace something that is still there.

I think maybe part of the problem is you're basing your judgment on these characters, when you've admitted you haven't even watched most of this season. How can you form opinions on these new kids, if you skip most of their scenes?

They're the bits I watch. Honestly Becca was the only decent thing on screen, even if they did ruin her character.

[Cranberry]

Archetype does not mean exact copy. It means "a typical example" or "an original that has been imitated." That's what we're saying Marley and co. were.

[SNeaker]

Puck cared enough about his mom to date a Jewish girl to make her happy. He also supported Finn and looked out for him (Bee Gees episode, last episode at college where in the end he got Finn to stop partying and buckle down in school.)

 

Oh he didn't dance. That makes him and Jake toooooootally different.

[jaytee1812]

Archetype does not mean exact copy. It means "a typical example" or "an original that has been imitated." That's what we're saying Marley and co. were.

You are. Most others say she was Rachel's replacement. The two are different things.

Oh he didn't dance. That makes him and Jake toooooootally different.

It's funny the audience and the original characters do the same thing. Jake is always judged by Puck's behaviour.

[Cranberry]

I think they probably mean the same thing I do, really. It's obvious that Marley's storyline was not an exact copy of Rachel's.

[Snow Apple]

Huh?
A mousy brunette: Madison is brunette, but she's sure no mouse. Her back story is keeping her family together and boss her brother around. Marley on the other hand, weeps at the drop of a hat and is too stupid thinking she's getting fat yet her clothes stay the same.

 

A womanizer: I never saw Mason having any interest in women (excluding his sister) until Jane.

 

A Jock: Spencer was a jerk gay kid. The opposite of sweet Ryder.

 

A Diva: Roderick is an insecure kid with a big voice that has to be forced to audition. Unique had rough times, but she's confidant and sassy.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Snow Apple

[SNeaker]

Marley was Rachel's replacement in the choir room "kid cast."

 

Most of us don't care about splitting hairs over words like "replacement." Sam gets called a Finn 2.0 and they were on the show together for many years.

 

They brought in new newbies because they wanted to rebuild the choir room with new kids for Rachel's story of recreating Glee club when she was lost over having mucked up Broadway/TV. But the new noobies were not direct replacements for specific characters. "Oh, we need a diva, but let's make him white, cis, and straight" as you're implying. Roderick wasn't remotely diva-ish. The only thing I see him and Unique having in common is being...un-skinny. And to lump them together for that reason seems rather offensive, to be honest.

[SNeaker]

It's funny the audience and the original characters do the same thing. Jake is always judged by Puck's behaviour.

 

In one of Jake's first episodes, he is seen putting the moves on various women. The song "Womanizer" is literally sung to him. He has anger management issues, gets into fights a lot, and knocks over a music stand. Later, he cheats on his girlfriend when she won't put out and has a pregnancy scare with the girl he cheated with.

[Ceeg]

They didn't replace the originals, the originals were still there even after the noobs had gone. You can replace something that is still there.

 

Dianna, Amber, Harry, and Mark were all in 3ish episodes in season 4. They were literally replaced by new kids in the choir room. Naya was in around 10 or 12 episodes in season 4. She was literally replaced in the choir room. Lea and Chris were in a totally separate narrative. They were literally replaced in the choir room.

 

The characters that replaced them:

Jake Puckerman - Actual Puckerman; badass; loves performing arts; same archetype as original Puck

Ryder  - good white dude; same archetype as Finn/Sam

Marley - quiet white girl that got made fun of, wanted to be a star; same archetype as Rachel

Kitty - bitchy blonde cheerleader, eventually loves Glee; same archetype as Quinn/Santana

Unique - sassy LGBTQ black girl; same archetype as Mercedes/Kurt

 

Now then let's look at the new noobs:

Spencer - post-modern gay jock; literally no one on this show has been a post-modern gay jock

Mason and Madison - twins and have a borderline creepy relationship with each other; literally no one else on this show have been twins with a weird relationship

Roderick - overweight bullied white guy; literally no one else on this show has been an overweight bullied white guy

Jane - wealthy black girl who actually isn't used as "sassy black girl"; literally no one else on this show has been that girl

 

Now, as the seasons progressed and the characters got fleshed out, they became more than just archetypes. But archetypes are conceived as replicas of already established characters. That's what the S4 noobs were. They were replicas who were literally replacing the kids who graduated.

 

I can't comprehend a world where S4 noobs were these amazingly thought-out brand new characters, while the S6 noobs weren't.

[jaytee1812]

I think they probably mean the same thing I do, really. It's obvious that Marley's storyline was not an exact copy of Rachel's.

They obviously tried to go a more dramatic route with a more talented actress. Granted they're dreadful writers so it sucked.

Yes I do think Melissa is a more talented actress than Lea, but then I think Naya, Dianna, Jenna and Becca are more talented actresses. Girl can sing, but someone needs to tell her how to project emotion.

[tom87]

. Obviously Lea and Melissa are just as bad on that score, only Melissa doesn't pretend otherwise.

Sorry but Lea has never once pretended or said she was a good dancer. 

 

On dancing: " I think about that every day on tour. My legs are like noodles, I don't know where I'm going, all I do is move my arms I figure thats the best I can do?  Emmy Roundtable 2011.

 

"Oh I don't know about my dancing but I try really hard" Billboard woman of Music event

 

EW interview, Are you a good dancer? Lea: um,um I move well? (laughs)

[dizzyizzy01]

Opinions on acting talent are clearly subject to personal interpretation, but to me, Melissa was as bland as plain toast on Glee.  She's seems to be much better off Glee, but man, was she a black hole of dull as Marley.

 

The GA seems to agree to cause not many were checking for Melissa while she was on Glee.  Obviously, she's gotten some mainstream attention as of late with Supergirl and Whiplash, but it doesn't seem that she made much of an impression with her stint on Glee.

[Mnem]

They obviously tried to go a more dramatic route with a more talented actress. Granted they're dreadful writers so it sucked.

Yes I do think Melissa is a more talented actress than Lea, but then I think Naya, Dianna, Jenna and Becca are more talented actresses. Girl can sing, but someone needs to tell her how to project emotion.

Hey, you do you, boo. But mileage could not possibly vary more. LOL!

[Ceeg]

There's something about Melissa's line delivery that I find very bizarre. I thought it in Whiplash too. Like, I have no idea what she's going for exactly.

[dizzyizzy01]

I can't really pinpoint what it is exactly, but Melissa's line delivery reminds me a lot of Katherine McPhee.

[tom87]

I  truly can not remember one line from Melissa so I can't help you.

[camussie]

Newbies 2.0 were not direct replacements of newbies 1.0 in the sense that they were not written to fill a specific character slot occupied by a previous character.  For example Roderick was not written to fill the "sassy big voiced" slot that Unique held and before her, Mercedes.  

 

On the other hand the newbies 1.0 were written to fill specific character slots.  

• Unique for Mercedes.  
• Kitty for Quinn.  
• Ryder for Finn.  
• Jake for Puck
• Marley for Rachel.  Now I happen to agree this one was the weakest comparison.  If anyone was the new Rachel in that choir room it was Blaine not Marley.  Still that doesn't change that the show pushed her as the new Rachel in the press

Edited March 24, 2015 by camussie

[tom87]

She was the New Rachel in getting songs and screen time.  They wanted her to be the female lead in that narrative, it didn't work.    So she was used over Tina/Jenna who should have had that chance.

Edited March 24, 2015 by tom87

[SNeaker]

Marley in a lot of ways reminded me of the Rachel I often saw in bad fanfic and quickly backpaged out of. Weak, easily victimized, naive, and a goody goody girl next door.

[tom87]

Marley in a lot of ways reminded me of the Rachel I often saw in bad fanfic and quickly backpaged out of. Weak, easily victimized, naive, and a goody goody girl next door.

The way some Finchel fans like to see Rachel. The stepford Rachel.

[camussie]

So she was used over Tina/Jenna who should have had that chance.

 

 

 

I can't agree with that either.  While I thought it was the wrong route to take to try and sell Marley as Rachel 2.0 (especially since their characters weren't very similar) I do think if they wanted to keep the choir room they needed someone with more acting talent than Jenna to be the lead female.  Jenna has a lovely voice but I think she is one of the worst actresses on the show.

 

Since they were hell bent on the split narrative I wish they had cast Samantha in Season 4 to be the new lead female.  Good actress and fantastic singer and bonus a woman of color would have been he lead.

 

The way some Finchel fans like to see Rachel. The stepford Rachel.

 

 

By the same token the way some Rachel fans like to see Finn - as the completely whipped lap dog to Rachel who should be grateful someone as talented and special as her allows him in her life.  Actually the same could be said for any bad fanfic with couples in it.  

Edited March 24, 2015 by camussie

[tom87]

I can't agree with that either.  While I thought it was the wrong route to take to try and sell Marley as Rachel 2.0 (especially since their characters weren't very similar) I do think if they wanted to keep the choir room they needed someone with more acting talent than Jenna to be the lead female.  Jenna has a lovely voice but I think she is one of the worst actresses on the show.

 

Since they were hell bent on the split narrative I wish they had cast Samantha in Season 4 to be the new lead female.  Good actress and fantastic singer and bonus a woman of color would have been he lead.

I think Jenna is limited as an actress too but since they let Darren and Chord take a lead not sure having Jenna do it would have hurt it any more than Melissa.

 

Jane would have been nice. 

 

Or they could have made the split better so we didn't have to worry about the Lima acting as much.

Edited March 24, 2015 by tom87

[camussie]

I think having Darren & Chord take lead was dumb as well.  Since they were hell bent on keeping Lima they needed to do one of 3 things

• cast more talented kids  and/or 
• not try to sell the talented kids they cast as new versions of previous characters or
• they needed to go back to the s1 construct where the coach (be it Finn or Will) was one of the leads.  

Edited March 24, 2015 by camussie

[Ceeg]

If RIB+ were so dead set on having the choir room stick around until running it into the ground, why in god's name would they graduate the most talented cast members all at the same time?

 

The creative decision making on this show boggles the mind.

[camussie]

I still think the decision that most boggles the mind, if they were always planning on keeping the choir room around, was making Will a lead in name only.  Matt really was the only triple threat on the cast so there was no reason he couldn't have been Glee's version of coach Taylor.  That said I doubt they really planned any of it out.  For example I think the reason Will's role got de-emphasized is because RM & Fox saw the response to the first tour and they wrote to that.  I also doubt when RM & team sat down and created Glee  back in 2008 they planned a long term bible.  

 

Then there is also RM seemed to think he was going to get a spin off where he was going to plant he most popular characters (Finn, Rachel, Kurt, Santana).  But that brings up the question had Fox greenlit the spin-off how would have original recipe Glee fared?  After all Will was no longer a lead character.  Now don't get me wrong I think Fox was right to not greenlight 2 Glee's because, as box office for the Glee movie demonstrated, Glee was quickly reaching a saturation point.  Given that I think both original recipe Glee and the spin-off would have faltered within a year.  Where Fox was wrong was not simply choosing and/or forcing RM o chose.  I still think some of that comes back to any Glee without Sue was a non-started for Fox so they wanted to keep McKinley around for her among other reasons (hopes of tour revenues, etc).

[jaytee1812]

I find it weird they graduated Kurt. Chris is by far one of the strongest performer and could've easily held down the McKinley lead. I would've maybe kept Mercedes too. I would've brought in the newbies but Marley and Ryder would've been supporting characters, as would Sam and Artie. The glee club would've centred around Kurt, Mercedes, Tina, Jake and Kitty. And then the people who run this show would burst into flames at the thought of no straight white men running things. 

 

I might've had Puck no graduate instead of Brittany, though Mark was really starting to look his age. I might've kept Mike for no reason other than more pretty on screen. I would've graduated Blaine. 

I still think the decision that most boggles the mind, if they were always planning on keeping the choir room around, was making Will a lead in name only.  Matt really was the only triple threat on the cast so there was no reason he couldn't have been Glee's version of coach Taylor.  

 

 

Agreed. I would've beefed up Emma's role too. 

[Myrna123]

It really does seem like every single decision about this show was made on a whim.  If you questioned The Divine Mr. Murphy, you were banished to the cornfield, so most people wouldn't, but if one of Murphy's decrees was challenged, he doubled down on it ten times stupider than the original whim.

 

This show was never well paced, well plotted or well planned.  I know a lot of viewers thought the show went off the rails from Season 4 on, but I never tuned into an episode during Season 2 that didn't stun me with how horrible it was.  Plot points were completely abandoned from one scene to the next--they would set up some kind of arc only to ignore it and never mention it again--or completely contradict it an episode later. 

 

Murphy should have handed the show over to someone else when he became involved in other shows.  I think he maintained absolute control over the show without any time to give to it.  It's like entire seasons were decided via a single text message with one or two follow-up messages that were answered with a Yes or a No, even though the questions weren't Yes/No questions.  And if auto correct completely changed whatever Murphy had intended a storyline to be, oh well, who the hell cares?

Edited March 24, 2015 by Myrna123

[Snow Apple]

If RIB+ were so dead set on having the choir room stick around until running it into the ground, why in god's name would they graduate the most talented cast members all at the same time?

 

The creative decision making on this show boggles the mind.

Or they should have just graduated ALL of them and move them all to NYADA. Oh, the stories they can tell of college life in such a school. Will and Sue can follow them (Hey, they did it in Boy Meets World) Who care if none of that make sense? At least it would be entertaining with characters we've come to care about, instead of watered-down newbies.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Snow Apple

[KatWay]

 

The way some Finchel fans like to see Rachel. The stepford Rachel.

Hardly just Finchel fans though. I've seen more than one Puckleberry fanfic where he saves her from emotionally abusive Finn and Rachel swoons at his manly protectiveness.

OOC character behaviour happens in every fandom.

[tom87]

Hardly just Finchel fans though. I've seen more than one Puckleberry fanfic where he saves her from emotionally abusive Finn and Rachel swoons at his manly protectiveness.

OOC character behaviour happens in every fandom.

Finchel was just fresh in my mind becasue of the ending. I was seeing some going back to the bit of how he made her better person and she owes everything to him  or not wanting her to go back to bway and be a teacher to honor Finn.

 

I know all fandoms likes to twist the characters every which way depending on who they favor.  

Edited March 24, 2015 by tom87

[camussie]

Or they should have just graduated ALL of them and move them all to NYADA. 

 

 

I think the best thing to do would have been to graduate all of them and then move only some of them to New York in order to focus on fewer characters.  My characters would have been Finn, Rachel, Kurt, Santana, Mercedes, Artie, and Blaine if we must.  Others could pop in for visits but I wouldn't have kept the entire cast for a NY move.  To me that would have been the way to re-invigorate the show - a new setting with a smaller cast.

Edited March 24, 2015 by camussie

[SNeaker]

Oh yeah, speaking as a Puck/Rachel fan and voracious reader of fanfic in that genre, a lot of it had that awful characterization of Rachel (with bonus abusive Finn.) Bad fanfic knows no shipping preference.

 

It was just funny to me when Marley showed up and was like the personification of that Rachel.

[SadieT]

No one's saying that Marley and co. weren't talented. I liked all of them. But they were filling the exact slots -- talented loser, bitchy cheerleader, womanizing bad boy, jock with a heart of gold, brassy diva -- vacated by the originals. It baffles me that you can't see that, yet you think that Roderick is a lesser copy of Unique simply because they both (supposedly) have a big belting voice.

 

Right. The newbies were talented enough, I think they will all probably have decent careers post-Glee, but they lacked the charisma needed to fill the shoes of the originals, an unfair feat they were unfortunately tasked with. And that's not because the originals are these amazing talents that no one could match up to, but they had a unique chemistry and charisma about them. The only exception is Becca in my opinion, she has an energy that's on level with the originals. She's not the best singer and probably not the greatest actress either but she pops, which is why I think she was kept around. 

 

Oh he didn't dance. That makes him and Jake toooooootally different.

 

Didn't the original character breakdown for Jake call for him to play guitar? Like Puck. But they were having trouble casting him so I'm guessing when Jacob came in they just switched his special talent to dance. So yeah sure, not the same at all.  

 

Sorry but Lea has never once pretended or said she was a good dancer. 

 

On dancing: " I think about that every day on tour. My legs are like noodles, I don't know where I'm going, all I do is move my arms I figure thats the best I can do?  Emmy Roundtable 2011.

 

"Oh I don't know about my dancing but I try really hard" Billboard woman of Music event

 

EW interview, Are you a good dancer? Lea: um,um I move well? (laughs)

 

There's also her appearance on David Letterman last year to promote her book where she tells a cute story about auditioning for a dance heavy version of Brigadoon and making a fool of herself by "flapping around in the corner" while professional ballerinas twirled around her. So yeah, Lea never overstated her dance abilities or pretended otherwise, she has always been playfully self-deprecating about her dance skills. Lea is not actually Rachel, as much as some people would like to believe otherwise. 

 

Opinions on acting talent are clearly subject to personal interpretation, but to me, Melissa was as bland as plain toast on Glee.  She's seems to be much better off Glee, but man, was she a black hole of dull as Marley.

 

That was my problem with Melissa as Marley, she was just so damn boring. She had all the charisma of a wet blanket. And when she'd try to be anything less than bland, it'd come off awkward. I think because Marley was such a shit character, Melissa just didn't have anything to work with and couldn't find a way to elevate the character the way some of the originals do with their shit writing. Marley was this weak mousey one-dimensional character with nothing interesting to define her so I don't exactly blame Melissa, but a more charismatic performer would have been able to inject some life into her. She was fine in Whiplash but to be honest there wasn't much to her character in the movie so I don't know if that's the best project to judge her on. It'll be interesting to see what she does with Supergirl but considering she impressed enough to get cast as the lead I'm going to assume she'll be much better than she was on Glee. 

 

Marley in a lot of ways reminded me of the Rachel I often saw in bad fanfic and quickly backpaged out of. Weak, easily victimized, naive, and a goody goody girl next door.

 

Because Marley was a straight up Mary Sue, complete with an eating disorder. I'm surprised they didn't throw in a cutting problem to really ice the cake. 

Edited March 25, 2015 by SadieT

[caracas1914]

I think where they lost me with Marley is she almost immediately had two hot guys (Jake and Ryder) after her, and yet she was suppose to be  this shy, demure wall flower with an over weight mother, she also happend to be poor,  who was fooled by Kitty to have an eating disorder all the time looking she was going to to burst into tears every time she uttered a line.  It seemed medically impossible, but Marley seemed to possess no backbone or spine and  the most spunky thing about her was her  her newsie cap.

 

Other than that, she was OK.

Edited March 25, 2015 by caracas1914

[AndySmith]

Or they should have just graduated ALL of them and move them all to NYADA

 

Or just have them move to NYC and let them do their own thing there...lots of schools and job opportunites for each of the diverse strengths of the characters. And they'd still be singing every 5 minutes anyway.

 

I do think a spin-off could have worked if done right.

 

I didn't hate newbies 1.0. But I wasn't all that crazy about them as a group. They were a talented group of kids, and I wish the writers had done a better job with them. I think, with better writing and making them their own people, instead of making them so simialr to the originals, could have worked. That's whay I liked newbies 2.0 better, and saw lots of potential there. Sadly, we never got to see any of it realized. I am glad Kitty survived the culling, and fit it rather will with newbies 2.0 as well.

 

I did feel bad for Marley on occasion, like when she fell prey to the show's occasional misogeny and hypocricy.

 

Ryan Murphy is someone who should just create a show and hand it over to someone else to take over as soon as he is done with the pilot.

Edited March 25, 2015 by AndySmith

[phoenixrising]

I don't think the tour is necessarily a reason they pulled back on Will as lead.

If Will was the main focus of the show, I don't know if I could've stuck through it once the other cast graduated. Nothing against Matt, but Will is one of the worst characters, and even when I go back and watch season 1, I see how awful he is, and it only got worse. Regardless of Matt's talent, Will has always been the worst part of the show for me. He did get a bit better in season 6, but it's hard to make a comeback after all the shit they made him do.