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Cranberry

By Cranberry
in Glee [V]

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LydiaMoon1

LydiaMoon1

Poor Ryan Murphy.  Season 6 is nothing but his delusional attempt to prove that the "choir room", aka, **cough Ryan Murphy cough** is the real star of Glee, and that Glee’s initial success was the direct result of his brilliance, genius, and vision.  Yet, all seasons 4, 5, and 6 have done is prove to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that Glee became a runaway smash hit because of the talent, chemistry, and charisma of the original cast.  Period.

 

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Ceeg
Ceeg

The show hit bottom when it wouldn't commit to one narrative. Either tell the high school Glee club story with rotating cast ala Degrassi, or move the fuck away from the high school and follow the cha

Cranberry
Cranberry

Marley was pretty much a friendless loser at the beginning, with aspirations of moving to New York and becoming a famous singer. She was taunted by Christian cheerleader Kitty, and eventually romanced

Ceeg
Ceeg

From the marketing thread:   Not completely. By the time the noobs came around, they were sharing a narrative with NYC. So, already in S4, the workload of the Lima narrative is cut out by 15-20%, d

Ann Mack

Ann Mack

It's because they didn't get the full 22+ the two cut from last season. If they had 24 episodes, they could've written something amazing for the final season! With only 13, they figured, why bother? It's not like any of the writers hope to have writing careers after Glee ends...

 

I highly doubt it. We would have just gotten 22+ episodes full of  everyone propping up Rachel instead of 13!

caracas1914

caracas1914

(edited)
See Child star.

 

Precisely.

 

It seems other than Rachel becoming a big Broadway star the rest of the season was trying to soothe Ryan's butt hurt ego that he was forced to let go of the Season 4 Noobs and their Storyline.   So he simply rebooted the story in Season 6 with the rest of cast propping the re birth  of New Directions at McKinley High.

 

So that was the priority of Season 6 and 9 more episodes would have driven that point home even more.

Edited by caracas1914
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Ceeg

Ceeg

If season 6 had gotten a full order, I'd guess there would be no less than 3 additional PSA episodes. What is a cool hot topic they haven't covered yet? Climate change? McKinley Goes Green! Immigration? Santana Gets Harassed By Homeland Security! Is the Illuminati controlling the news and pop culture? Sue Is a Secret Illuminati Member: Illuminati Confirmed!

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jaytee1812

jaytee1812

(edited)

Yet, all seasons 4, 5, and 6 have done is prove to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that Glee became a runaway smash hit because of the talent, chemistry, and charisma of the original cast. Period.

I always find this assumption hilarious. I mean I stan pretty hard for a few of the originals but the idea that they are so supremely talented, and far more than what came after that only they are responsible for the success Glee became is bizzare.

Truth is they got the best of the writing and people loved the format, it was completely new and fresh. Anyone could've been in the original cast and it would've been successful.

Edited by jtrattray
spiritof76

spiritof76

 

If season 6 had gotten a full order, I'd guess there would be no less than 3 additional PSA episodes. What is a cool hot topic they haven't covered yet?

Ferguson. I shudder to think of what these writers would have done with a racial profiling/police shooting type of story. Even The Good Wife tried to tackle it and failed. And The Good Wife is a far superior show. For the most part they have stayed away from race on Glee, unless they were making a joke/trying to be edgy. But they never actually tried to tackle it and say anything about it like they did with other hot topics. I guess because racism is cured? LOL!

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jaytee1812

jaytee1812

Ferguson. I shudder to think of what these writers would have done with a racial profiling/police shooting type of story. Even The Good Wife tried to tackle it and failed. And The Good Wife is a far superior show. For the most part they have stayed away from race on Glee, unless they were making a joke/trying to be edgy. But they never actually tried to tackle it and say anything about it like they did with other hot topics. I guess because racism is cured? LOL!

Given that on Glee black are bullies, troublemakers, and/or promiscuous. I dread to think what they would've done with that. Probably have a white guy explain why it's wrong!

caracas1914

caracas1914

(edited)
Truth is they got the best of the writing and people loved the format, it was completely new and fresh. Anyone could've been in the original cast and it would've been successful.

 

Couldn't disagree more.

 

Too many shows try to "copy" someones blue print and it doesn't work.   It's "lightning in a bottle" a combination of everything.  You change something and it gets screwed up.  I think the Season 4 Noobs WERE talented, but the chemistry that the original cast had was missing, it's not to dismiss them, it's apples and oranges. 

 

If it WAS the format primarily, Season 4 should have worked.    But it was format, I agree, added with writing, the chemistry of the original ensemble, some individual stand out acting, etc, and yes , a fresh and original premise all COMBINED.

Edited by caracas1914
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SNeaker

SNeaker

(edited)

If season 6 had gotten a full order, I'd guess there would be no less than 3 additional PSA episodes. What is a cool hot topic they haven't covered yet? Climate change? McKinley Goes Green! Immigration? Santana Gets Harassed By Homeland Security! Is the Illuminati controlling the news and pop culture? Sue Is a Secret Illuminati Member: Illuminati Confirmed!

 

 

Ferguson. I shudder to think of what these writers would have done with a racial profiling/police shooting type of story. Even The Good Wife tried to tackle it and failed. And The Good Wife is a far superior show. For the most part they have stayed away from race on Glee, unless they were making a joke/trying to be edgy. But they never actually tried to tackle it and say anything about it like they did with other hot topics. I guess because racism is cured? LOL!

 

That's where my mind went too. They would have brought back Baby Puck to get him shot by police or something.

Edited by SNeaker
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jaytee1812

jaytee1812

Couldn't disagree more.

Too many shows try to "copy" someones blue print and it doesn't work. It's "lightning in a bottle" a combination of everything. You change something and it gets screwed up. I think the Season 4 Noobs WERE talented, but the chemistry that the original cast had was missing, it's not to dismiss them, it's apples and oranges.

If it WAS the format primarily, Season 4 should have worked. But it was format, I agree, added with writing, the chemistry of the original ensemble, some individual stand out acting, etc, and yes , a fresh and original premise all COMBINED.

I fail to see chemistry with the original cast. As an ensemble they fail to convince me they even like each other on or off screen. Not to say there aren't individual friendships but I don't buy there closeness as a group. Never did.

Pink ranger

Pink ranger

(edited)

RIB also lacked the vision and stratagy to successfully integrate new characters while phasing out older ones. The Uk has a long running soap called Eastenders that has just celebrated it's 30th year. Natually, the current cast is light years removed from the orginal one back in 1985. It was certainly possible to successfully transfer focus to new kids with better execution.

Edited by Pink ranger
caracas1914

caracas1914

(edited)
I fail to see chemistry with the original cast. As an ensemble they fail to convince me they even like each other on or off screen. Not to say there aren't individual friendships but I don't buy there closeness as a group. Never did.

 

Fair enough, however the first Glee cast was a runaway success, resulting in high ratings, cooler buzz, media acclaim, awards nominations and two very successful tours on that casts shoulders.

 

The season 4 Noobs got ZERO of that.

 

So there's that. Something worked with the Original cast that didn't with SEason 4 ,if you don't want to call it chemistry we can call it something else. 

Edited by caracas1914
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camussie

camussie

(edited)

As much as I loathe RM & team's writing in later seasons, i have to give them major credit for Glee turning into the cultural phenomenon it was.  There were weaknesses in the writing, for sure, but they wrote a dang fine first 13 and decent back 9.  They also weaved a wide variety of songs into the show in an interesting manner mostly because plot drove song choices versus song choices driving plot.  That said, it wasn't just their writing.  The cast became a phenomenon and a lot of that can be attributed to the appeal of the actors.  As far as chemistry, that is subjective but I would say what isn't subjective is that as a group that cast was wildly popular in that they sold millions and millions of singles and sold out two tours.  

Edited by camussie
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tom87

tom87

(edited)

Fair enough, however the first Glee cast was a runaway success, resulting in high ratings, cooler buzz, media acclaim, awards nominations and two very successful tours on that casts shoulders.

 

The season 4 Noobs got ZERO of that.

 

So there's that. Something worked with the Original cast that didn't with SEason 4 ,if you don't want to call it chemistry we can call it something else. 

SAG award for best cast.

 

The noobs and some of older cast did not generate that buzz either and there was 10 + to compare too.

Edited by tom87
jaytee1812

jaytee1812

SAG award for best cast.

 

The noobs and some of older cast did not generate that buzz either and there was 10 + to compare too.

 

They got the worst writing, even worse than the new noobs. They had they hate from the stans of the originals who hated on them as soon as the breathed on screen. Some of the hate they got was well over the top.  

 

And the newbies were never written as part of the glee club, their storylines always took place outside, they were never integrated even with the originals that were left or with Blaine and Sam. I mean partly it's why I buy their friendships and don't buy that they abandoned Kitty. 

KatWay

KatWay

I think the newbies in S4 weren't super successful as characters (rather bland and forgettable), but chemistry or not, they would never have generated the buzz the originals did, simply because the shine was long off Glee by then. Even the originals - yes, they worked, but mainly the show itself really worked, the black comedy/musical combination was intriguing and new to many viewers, that's why it had buzz. Honestly, while Will, Rachel, Finn and then Kurt emerged as really interesting characters I hesitate to say that about any of the others. Tina, Mercedes and Artie barely had anything to do and all three actors were new and sometimes struggling. They also didn't really feel like an organic group who really liked each other - they were always very much in groups (Finn/Quinn/Puck, Finn/Rachel, Kurt/Mercedes, Artie/Tina) who didn't seem to care too much about the other groups.

 

I did buy the newbies as genuine friends. Ryder/Jake, even with liking the same girl, were much more authentic than Finn/Puck as much as Cory/Mark had believable chemistry.

camussie

camussie

(edited)

I can agree with that to a point but I think all of those factors -  writing, song choices, and the appeal of the original cast is what brought Glee to the heights it became.  I think if even one of those factors was missing there is a good chance it wouldn't have grown into that cultural phenomenon.  I also think no matter what Glee would not have lasted more than 6 seasons.  For sure the show should have chosen one path and stuck to it (and since they had made Will into a supporting character that path should have been following the graduates) but it still was fading fast.  RM just does not have it in him to write a decent show over multiple seasons. That is why the anthology format is a good fit for his talents.  

 

I did buy the newbies as genuine friends. Ryder/Jake, even with liking the same girl, were much more authentic than Finn/Puck as much as Cory/Mark had believable chemistry.

 

 

i think Cory's/Mark's chemistry was more believable but not the Finn/Puck friendship itself.  At least not after the second time Puck fooled around with one of Finn's girlfriends.  That Finn forgave Puck for that after he had already forgiven him for the baby lie was completely unbelievable.  That is why I liked the Puck/Quinn scene with Finn's jersey. They screwed him over royally so it was nice they acknowledged how big of a step it was for Finn to forgive them for it.

Edited by camussie
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jaytee1812

jaytee1812

I did buy the newbies as genuine friends. Ryder/Jake, even with liking the same girl, were much more authentic than Finn/Puck as much as Cory/Mark had believable chemistry.

 

Never saw the chemistry between Cory/Mark. I mostly thought Finn tolerated Puck because that's what the glee club did. Among the men I ever bought Puck being friends with Artie and Mike. 

camussie

camussie

(edited)

Both Will and Finn were shafted in the second half of season 1 because the show wanted to move on from the baby plots as fast as possible.  It was more egregious with Will because he never even got to confront Quinn about her part in Terri's lie.  it was also bad with Finn, though, because the show decided that him wanting to be a rock star was the reason he wasn't up to dating Rachel . They could have still done the switcheroo with him being jealous over Rachel/Jesse and left out the rock star stuff and instead said he had just been through the ringer and wasn't up to anything serious at the moment, especially with someone as intense as Rachel.  

Edited by camussie
tom87

tom87

(edited)

I liked that they didn't just become friends overnight.    They let all their troubles and conflict disappeared when they performed.  

 

Like Kurt said they can tease Rachel but no one else can.  They formed this weird little group that didn't always see eye to eye but still cared on some level.

Edited by tom87
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SevenStars

SevenStars

(edited)

I liked that they didn't just become friends overnight.    They let all their troubles and conflict disappeared when they performed.  

 

Like Kurt said they can tease Rachel but no one else can.  They formed this weird little group that didn't always see eye to eye but still cared on some level.

 

I agree. It's because they didn't always get along with each other but when it was time to performing, they put aside their problems with each other and performed. This is what made me love their friendships and made them so interesting to me. 

 

The fact that the originals weren't perfect friends, perfect characters who always got along with each other is what made them interesting to me and why I love them.  It is is why I believe they cared for each other, because it is easy to care about someone who is always nice to you or you always get along with, but to care for someone you always fighting with for solo or who annoys you enough to want to slap them or insult them but if someone outside the group does it, you have a problem with that, that is caring. That makes me realize that they might not know how to be perfect/good friends to each other. They might be too selfish, too self-center, and too much of divas to always be a good friend to each other but that doesn't mean they don't care for each other. 

 

Their dynamic was interesting and I believed that they cared for each other, even when they didn't always like every aspect of each other's character or actions.

Edited by SevenStars
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SevenStars

SevenStars

IDK, for me they went from "I grudgingly care about you" to "I don't even know you exist" to antagonistic hostility back and forth, it never felt that organic to me, more like what did the writers want for the episode. The friendship aspect of the gang to me only started to get more focus in S2 and then S3.

 

That's cause S1 was more about setting them up, showing how a group of misfits who didn't like each other or on the same social level wanted to be in Glee enough that they were willing to deal with people they didn't always like or want to be around. So it kept going back and forth because they were teenagers learning  to deal with people they didn't always like but had to be around. 

SevenStars

SevenStars

I don't ever remember the originals being written as friends. Groups within that, yes. But as a whole, no. Actually they're pretty shitty to each other.

 

In every big group of friends, there are always sections who are closer to each other and better friends to each other, than they are for the rest of the group. There are always best friends with in that big group. But that doesn't mean everyone in the group are not friends.

 

I know that's how it was for me in High school, I had a big group of 7 friends. We were friends with each other but I had a best friend within that big group who I would tell everything to and who would get to hear it first from me before I tell the rest of my friends because we knew each other longer. Others within the group had the same relationship, people they were closer to than me. But that didn't me I didn't care about every one of those people. That doesn't mean I wasn't their friend or that they weren't my friends.

jaytee1812

jaytee1812

In every big group of friends, there are always sections who are closer to each other and better friends to each other, than they are for the rest of the group. There are always best friends with in that big group. But that doesn't mean everyone in the group are not friends.

And that's the feel I get from a lot of ensemble shows (Grey's Anatomy springs to mind) but not Glee. I kind of buy them being high school friends that tolerate each other because they have no-one else. But I don't really remember them actually being there for each other.

Apart from it being in the script I couldn't believe Tina, Mike, Puck or Artie were invited to Brittany and Santana's wedding.

jaytee1812

jaytee1812

I think we're missing the boat here, it's irrelevant whether the Originals were friends or not, or " organic" or not, the first cast *was* wildly successful and The rebooted Season 4 ( with SOME of the first cast) was not.

Doesn't really matter why, but the experiment failed.

Wasn't the actors. Those four were the best things about season 4.

jaytee1812

jaytee1812

I don't think they have no credit. I mean I was hooked by watching a sweet Asian girl sing and kept watching. However I do reject the notion that the originals are so supremely talented no other actors could've been so successful, and that everyone since is less talented.*

*Unless we're talking about Roderick and Spencer, they really are less talented.

But the drop in ratings of seasons 4 and 5 does not rest in the shoulders of four actors.

I can say pretty definitely that I would never pay money to see the season 4 cast in concert. I would, however, pay to see a season 1 cast reunion. And that has literally nothing to do with the writing, since all they'd be doing is singing and dancing around on stage.

You're preference but apart from Jenna rather pay to watch the season 4 newbs.

And I'm sorry but the one thing the can't argue is that the dancing improved with the season 4 newbs. I love Harry but Jacob and Becca are clearly the best dancers this show ever had.

camussie

camussie

(edited)

While I don't think the original cast is the sole reason for the success of Glee, they are one of the reasons and I don't think other people in those roles, especially the roles of Rachel, Finn, Kurt, Will, and Sue would have taken Glee to the heights it went.  For example, as talented as I think both Blake and Melissa are, I don't think either one of them playing Finn and Rachel instead of Cory and Lea would have brought Glee to the heights of popularity that it reached.  Conversely I don't think Cory or Lea playing Finn and Rachel could have brought Glee to those heights with season 4 writing.  All of those early factors were needed - writing, the use of songs, and the original casting for the main characters.

Edited by camussie
  • Love 4
Ceeg

Ceeg

(edited)

I don't think they have no credit. I mean I was hooked by watching a sweet Asian girl sing and kept watching. However I do reject the notion that the originals are so supremely talented no other actors could've been so successful, and that everyone since is less talented.*

 

I don't think anyone has actually even said that the Gen 1 kids were "so supremely talented" and that's why Glee was so successful. It's about talent, and chemistry, and writing, and timing, and the tv landspace, all together as one thing. And you might not see any chemistry there, but apparently millions of other people did. They sold out 2 tours. No one went to those arenas to hear them speak the brilliant words of RIB. They went to see their favorite actors/actresses sing in person and with each other.

Edited by Ceeg
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SNeaker

SNeaker

(edited)

Melissa as Rachel would have been laughable. She just does not have any fire.

 

And I'm sorry but the one thing the can't argue is that the dancing improved with the season 4 newbs. I love Harry but Jacob and Becca are clearly the best dancers this show ever had.

 

First of all, I far prefer Harry's and Heather's dancing to Jacob and Becca's, though I do think they're good too. Just different.

 

Second of all, I never thought the dancing on the show was very important. A wonderful bonus at times, but the least important factor/skill, way below acting, singing, and charisma. I preferred the Season 1 numbers with minimal dancing that let the characters and music speak for themselves. I'd rather bad dancers who can sing/act/make me feel things than perfect dancing. Else I'd be watching a show about Vocal Adrenaline.

Edited by SNeaker
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camussie

camussie

(edited)
And I'm sorry but the one thing the can't argue is that the dancing improved with the season 4 newbs. I love Harry but Jacob and Becca are clearly the best dancers this show ever had.

 

 

I think that is subjective as well.  I think both Harry and Heather are just as good of dancers as Jacob and Becky.  Then there is Matt who is as good or better than all of them.  I will say after Matt and Kevin (who we didn't get to see dance because of the wheelchair) Jacob is probably the best all around performer on Glee. Acting was his weakest link but not near as weak as Heather's acting.  

 

On another note for all of the complaints that white guys got preferential writing, there is a flip side to that.  Often when they wanted to hammer home a PSA it was a white guy who said or did something wrong in a representation of how backwards middle America was.  Finn and Will were the two used most for this. While I think RM & team did a lot for LGBTQ representation on TV I think one shortcoming of their approach was the arrogant attitude that they alone knew what needed to done to school middle America.  No doubt there is a lot of prejudice out there.  I just didn't like how RM & team tended to have a very "flyover country" view of where that prejudice exists.  

Edited by camussie
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