All Episodes Talk: Breadstix

[caracas1914]

In the Quarterback, Figgins referred to Bree as "New Santana Lopez" as opposed to "Old Santana Lopez". Glee's promos compared Kitty to Quinn. Cory and Blake described the Character of Ryder in interviews as Finn 2.0. Unique was mistaken on several (ha ha) ocassions as Mercedes Jones. Jake was introduced as a bad boy who was literally Puck's brother (though Puck would never ride a fucking baby tot scooter) and Marley, not clearly Rachel and while written without a spine, was the underdog female ingenue of the show with the supportive parent and meant to be the new female leading voice with different male characters wooing her.

In hindsight, the Season 4 Noobs were doomed in no small part by the ineptitude of the writers who miscalculated by deliberately drawing parralels with the the character they replaced as opposed to fleshing out new characters.

Edited February 4, 2015 by caracas1914

[caracas1914]

x

Edited February 4, 2015 by caracas1914

[Glorfindel]

Sue in 4x01, introducing Kitty to Kurt:

"Kitty is my new head bitch. She's like a young Quinn Fabray, except she's not pregnant, manic depressive, or in and out of a wheelchair."

[tom87]

Sue in 4x01, introducing Kitty to Kurt:

"Kitty is my new head bitch. She's like a young Quinn Fabray, except she's not pregnant, manic depressive, or in and out of a wheelchair."

I always found Kitty to be more of a Santana. Quinn had the mean but never the wit.

[SevenStars]

I always found Kitty to be more of a Santana. Quinn had the mean but never the wit.

And Quinn was all about manipulating people into thinking/believing she was  perfect and a good person while being mean to those she didn't care about their opinions. While Santana in order hand didn't seems to care about what people thought of her or see her as. She was just mean and didn't care. So I agree with you, I see Kitty as more of white/blond version of Santana.

[SNeaker]

Kitty had Quinn's faux Christian piety, though.

[Ceeg]

From the Episode Discussion thread:

 

There is no evidence on glee Brittany is bisexual. The only thing she has said about her sexuality is 'I think I'm bicurious.' Dating, even marrying Santana doesn't make her bisexual. She could reasonably describe herself as straight, or questioning.

 

 

No-one on this show has ever said anything about Brittany's orientation. [...] My point about the number of women Brittany has had a relationship with is that you said bisexuality is defined as a sexual attraction to men and women. As far as I recall from the show Brittany's never shown any interest in women except Santana.

 

5x02
Santana: "I've never been with an actual lesbian, it's been all bisexuals like Brittany, or college girls trying to experiment."

3x20
Santana: "Britt and I are gay and Mercedes is black, so kicking us out would be a hate crime."
Brittany: "Well, I'm not totally gay, but I think that trees are born the same way as babies, so kicking me out would be kind of mean."

1x17
Brittany: "I also don't know why I've only made fourth in the Glist. I've made out with, like, everyone in this school: girls, boys, Mr. Kidney the janitor. I need to get into the top three."

2x01
Brittany: "Coach Beiste didn't touch my boobs. Actually, I really want to touch her boobs."

3x02
Brittany: "I'm also a unicorn. Maybe a bi-corn. Either way, I'm starting to believe in my own magic."

3x12
Brittany: "Oooo, I'm bilingual."

To be honest, I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make?

[jaytee1812]

5x02

Santana: "I've never been with an actual lesbian, it's been all bisexuals like Brittany, or college girls trying to experiment."

 

Fair point, I'd forgotten that.

3x20

Santana: "Britt and I are gay and Mercedes is black, so kicking us out would be a hate crime."

Brittany: "Well, I'm not totally gay, but I think that trees are born the same way as babies, so kicking me out would be kind of mean."

 

 

So she's not gay she's just stupid. 

1x17

Brittany: "I also don't know why I've only made fourth in the Glist. I've made out with, like, everyone in this school: girls, boys, Mr. Kidney the janitor. I need to get into the top three."

I always assumed that was fantasy, like her virginity story. 

2x01

Brittany: "Coach Beiste didn't touch my boobs. Actually, I really want to touch her boobs."

That's just weird, but again fair point. (not that someone want to touch Bieste's boobs is weird that a pupil said that to/about a teacher). Also I'm trying to resist the pedant part of me taking over and pointing out Bieste is a man because I know at the time Brittany thought she was a woman. Pedant part won. 

 

3x02

Brittany: "I'm also a unicorn. Maybe a bi-corn. Either way, I'm starting to believe in my own magic."

 

That would make her a mythical creature.

 

3x12

Brittany: "Oooo, I'm bilingual."

 

That means she speaks two languages. How does that define her sexuality. Santana is also bilingual. 

To be honest, I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make?

 

 

Right back at ya.

 

My point was the show never really defined Brittany's sexuality as anything. I wish they had (well not with Brittany). I said months ago one of the disappointing things about Glee was that everyone except possibly Brittany had their sexuality set in stone and they were all in boxes marked gay or straight. 

[Ceeg]

But, I don't understand how you think Brittany's sexuality is any less defined than any of the other characters, besides Santana, Kurt, Blaine, and I guess Finn (I'm assuming he must have told Kurt he's straight, back when Kurt was crushing on him, though I'm not 100%). Has Tina ever said explicitly that she's straight? Has Mike? Has Mercedes? Bisexuality isn't some complex idea. It's a sexual attraction to both genders, which Brittany has demonstrated throughout the past 6 years. I think the audience can make that leap that Brittany is bisexual, in the same way that the audience can make the leap that Mercedes and Tina and Mike are all straight.

[jaytee1812]

I think the audience can make that leap that Brittany is bisexual, in the same way that the audience can make the leap that Mercedes and Tina and Mike are all straight.

 

I wouldn't make that assumption though. 

[Ceeg]

Either way, Brittany's own girlfriend literally called her bisexual, and at the very least, Brittany would qualify as being part of the Q of LGBTQ.  But she's certainly not straight. 

[jaytee1812]

Either way, Brittany's own girlfriend literally called her bisexual, and at the very least, Brittany would qualify as being part of the Q of LGBTQ.  But she's certainly not straight. 

 

I would been better coming from Brittany, in something that resembled a coherent sentence. 

[Cranberry]

You're missing the "joke" with bi-corn and bilingual -- Brittany doesn't know the term "bisexual," so she uses those instead.

 

I'm also wondering why this matters to you so much. You're verging on offending the LGBT members of this board with your need to have someone's sexuality "confirmed."

[jaytee1812]

You're missing the "joke" with bi-corn and bilingual -- Brittany doesn't know the term "bisexual," so she uses those instead.

 

It's missing the funny!

[Ceeg]

Her whole spiel to Kurt in 3x02 was about him embracing being a "unicorn" (a.k.a. being out and proud with his gay self), so when she realized that she too is a unicorn, she corrected herself to say "bi-corn" because it was more accurate, since she's "not totally gay".

 

And yeah the bilingual thing is a case of accidental continuity. When she said that back in season 3, the writers probably had no idea that she was literally bilingual (as shown in 6x06). It was just a sexual entendre Brittany-ism. 

[Cranberry]

It's missing the funny!

 

That's why "joke" is in quotation marks. ;) Point still stands.

[jaytee1812]

Her whole spiel to Kurt in 3x02 was about him embracing being a "unicorn" (a.k.a. being out and proud with his gay self), so when she realized that she too is a unicorn, she corrected herself to say "bi-corn" because it was more accurate, since she's "not totally gay".

 

I probably missed that due to the utter fury I got from that entire storyline. 

[caracas1914]

Brittany's sexuality confirmed or not is irrelevant because the character so many times was painted as such a mentally challenged moron, where placing cereal on the floor worked in luring her to a room.

She seemed indifferent to any other female sans Santana, whereas the show had her going out with multiple guys. So I'd say she was drawn to Santana and that was the extent of her bisexual status. Again, she was so simple minded that gay, straight or bisexual seemed useless terms to describe her. Childlike is a better term.

[Kromm]

I wouldn't make that assumption though. 

Why would something be an assumption, when we've actually seen it demonstrated first hand?

Brittany's sexuality confirmed or not is irrelevant because the character so many times was painted as such a mentally challenged moron, where placing cereal on the floor worked in luring her to a room.

She seemed indifferent to any other female sans Santana, whereas the show had her going out with multiple guys. So I'd say she was drawn to Santana and that was the extent of her bisexual status. Again, she was so simple minded that gay, straight or bisexual seemed useless terms to describe her. Childlike is a better term.

It's true that there's some theoretical possibility she's a heterosexual who's obsessed with one particular female.  I don't know if there's some clinical name for that condition.  But sexuality is a spectrum, not just a series of endpoints, and this has always been the case.  It's why the banner for these things is SELF-IDENTIFICATION.  

 

Because it's a spectrum, if someone self-identifies as Bixsexual, then you refer to them as Bisexual.  If they self-identify as Gay, you refer to them as Gay.  Heck as we know it works for gender too, and the various iterations of cross dressers vs. Trans.  If they later change their minds and declare that they were simply "Bi-curious", that's when you, the outside observer, change the label for them--because THEY have.  It's in their hands, and it's as simple as that.

 

Even with an idiot like Brittany this applies.  When she clears up her "confusion" and someone tells her the right word for it, she picks.  That's the standard the world is growing to embrace now.

Edited February 8, 2015 by Kromm

[caracas1914]

Someone who thinks that sleeping with multiple partners because "the plumbing is different" isn't cheating, transcends orientation and self identification to the realm of universal and all encompassing stupidity.

Children don't necessarily identify orientation becuase their concept of the term is ill defined, I could imagine Brittany sleeping with other women while married becuase , say, a blonde woman she meets has different coloring.

It's a waste of time to use her a character, I look at her as the same level of irrelevant vagueness as Becky.

Edited February 8, 2015 by caracas1914

[BizBuzz]

My daughter (15 now) and I have spent the last week binge watching the first season of Glee ... this is only my second go round, my daughters forth or fifth ... I have to say that they had a gold mine and I don't know where they think they were going ... but 5 seasons later, the show doesn't even come close to the mission they established in the first season.

 

It was so strange ... I kept saying ... they did this in the first season?  The first season was so incredible ... so much drama and so much entertainment ... what happened?

 

My daughter started this bingefest with the caveat ... we are only going to season 3, pretending it ended at the finale at season 3 ... I think she had something there.

[fakeempress]

From the 606 Episode thread:

Is there any need for Kurt and Blaine to have such an encyclopedic knowledge of fashion and show tunes going back 50 years to be in a show choir ? As you yourself said Sebastian was gay and in a show choir and didn't have either of those qualities.  More importantly Blaine and Kurt being so similar in their fashion and music obsessions make them dull.

It's like how they(the show)/ Blaine made that joke about the Warblers all being gay because they sing and dance... It feels like they're playing into the stereotype that guys who like to sing and dance are gay.
It's not like every other guy on the show choir knows every musical hit from the last 50 years and they're in show choir too. So I fail to understand what your point is exactly ?
Anyway I watch lots of shows with gays ranging throughout the spectrum but that doesn't mean I find caricatures interesting characters.

Sounds to me like you just want no gay characters on this show to be as gay, meaning to have "stereotypical" interest in fashion or musicals. Well, it so happens the particular show choir that's central to the show called Glee, sings show tunes. It also sings lots of other stuff, including songs from the future, and the gays you reference know about them too. They just know a  lot about music because that's what they like, and they also go to a performance arts school which is supposed to teach that. And they're on a musical show - it's no rocket science.

 

Glee isn't a good show, but at least it has had a diversity of gay characters, which may be unprecedented for a network primetime show. The stereotype flag gets waved the moment any of them dares like the "typical" gay things. I think what's important is how well the character is written, how individualised he is, and if he works in the framework of the particular show.

 

I think Kurt has been given enough individualisation not to be called a stereotype. He is a character who likes fashion and musicals as many gays do in real life; who sang in show choir, and who goes to a performance arts school. Given that. I'd find it extremely strange if he didn't know this much about the last 50 years of pop music and musicals.But most importantly, the fact that he likes "stereotypical" gay things isn't what his character is about by a long shot. 

 

I don't care about Blaine not because of his fashion or music sense, but because he's a mess of a character and was ruined by the writers.

 

There is a show about gay guys called Looking, on HBO. Nobody there likes showtunes or fashion. Maybe this has something to do with the fact that it isn't a show about show choir. 

Edited February 9, 2015 by fakeempress

[wayne67]

Sounds to me like you just want no gay characters on this show to be as gay, meaning to have "stereotypical" interest in fashion or musicals. Well, it so happens the particular show choir that's central to the show called Glee, sings show tunes. It also sings lots of other stuff, including songs from the future, and the gays you reference know about them too. They just know a  lot about music because that's what they like, and they also go to a performance arts school which is supposed to teach that. And they're on a musical show - it's no rocket science.

 

Glee isn't a good show, but at least it has had a diversity of gay characters, which may be unprecedented for a network primetime show. The stereotype flag gets waved the moment any of them dares like the "typical" gay things. I think what's important is how well the character is written, how individualised he is, and if he works in the framework of the particular show.

 

I think Kurt has been given enough individualisation not to be called a stereotype. He is a character who likes fashion and musicals as many gays do in real life; who sang in show choir, and who goes to a performance arts school. Given that. I'd find it extremely strange if he didn't know this much about the last 50 years of pop music and musicals.But most importantly, the fact that he likes "stereotypical" gay things isn't what his character is about by a long shot. 

 

I don't care about Blaine not because of his fashion or music sense, but because he's a mess of a character and was ruined by the writers.

 

There is a show about gay guys called Looking, on HBO. Nobody there likes showtunes or fashion. Maybe this has something to do with the fact that it isn't a show about show choir. 

 

I think this has gotten to the point where you're assuming a lot about me instead of arguing the point so before this becomes any more tedious than it already has, I'll try and clarify my point one last time.

 

I don't care that the 2 main gay guys like fashion or show tunes but they've taken it such extremes it feels like a caricature TO ME... which is my opinion, which I'm allowed to have.

 

Kurt apparently is so fashionable that he got some kind of fashion blog and interned with Sarah Jessica Parker as a Vogue something or rather. I may have blanked it out the details due to boredom. Kurt and Blaine dress with a level of attention to their clothing that becomes somewhat disturbing. Blaine isn't recognisable without hair gel. He is a caricature of well groomed gay guy whose 'friends' don't recognise him when he doesn't put in that level of effort. 

 

Kurt is stuck as the gay best friend of Rachel only to be sidelined any time a female wanders in and she completely ditches disparaging him at a whim. I think the only story line that Kurt had that didn't involve him being gay in some way was his time at the old folks home. Everything else as far as I can remember was being bullied for being an effeminate gay, Creeping on Finn even though he knew he was straight, crushing on Blaine, being annoyed at Blaine cheating, dating Adam for a New York minute. Even a potentially interesting story line with him and his time at Nyada was reduced to being about Blaine's diminished ego. Wait I just remembered his father's illness, which I suppose tangentially was related to him but didn't really involve him much. 

 

I'd figure Kurt as being more of an actual character if he had any friends outside of Glee at Nyada, the place he's been going for the last 2? years. Or if he wasn't now dating a 60 year old man for reasons that are beyond me. If his life actually meant enough that uprooting it for his supposed best friend meant something to his best friend or was any way shown as an actual inconvenience. 

 

As for Blaine he's a red hot mess, OCD, cheats on his bf and his only apparent goal at one point was to marry Kurt even though they weren't even together at the time. Kurt held that Idiot relationship ball for a while and now seems to be just loitering in the background of Rachel's story about redemption or whatever nonsense that's about. 

 

My problem isn't that Kurt and Blaine are gay and like show choir or fashion. It's that those seem to be their strongest identifiers. 

 

I don't know what Kurt or Blaine want for their future and they've had 90+ episodes to leave an impression. Adam levine left more of an impression in 2 than these two have. 

 

That said everyone else ranges in and out of caricature status, the various diva offs and pregnancy scheming and the whole pious on the outside but callous on the inside. The heart of gold nonsense for half of the antagonists. I'd just like the gay characters to have slightly more depth than a cardboard cut out of show choir gays. Maybe that's just me.

 

Like Britney comes across as a poor caricature of the manic pixie girl, instead of manic, she's bordering on the edge of idiot savante territory that can be lured away with cereal or an ice cream van. 

[fakeempress]

 

This isn't a realistic show, Kurt's designer duds are one of the conventions that go into the heightened reality aspect of the show. If you want complete realism, Glee isn't that. The problem with Glee isn't so much the out there reality, but that this reality is inconsistent, it oscillates wildly depending on what plot and tone they want to use, if they do an absurd comedy episode or a PSA episode. The problem is also with their inability to sustain the in-show motivation and narrative logic of the characters. But this isn't a problem of the gay characters, it's a problem for all characters. 

 

It doesn't much matter to me in that respect that Kurt has designer duds or gets a magic internship in Vogue. It definitely doesn't matter to me that he knows every major showtune because that's true to the character, and part of his characterisation. He also knows other tunes, because he likes music and wants to be a performer. How is that stereotyping I don't really see. It's like if this is a CSI show, it's stereotyping if a character knows too much about forensics despite being given a specific personality traits, family, etc. personalisation.

 

It matters to me when Kurt for instance is made to act OOC (though it's not such a big problem in his case as with others) or is used to prop other characters (Rachel for instance), or is inexplicably getting back with Blaine, this sort of thing matters to me more than how he gets all the designer stuff. Still, for me this character is among the most consistent and individualised on this show. I cannot put him on the same level as Brittany, or Blaine, at all. Blaine went through age and multiple personality transplants - which also bothers me more than how he dresses; at least his style is somewhat consistent which I can't say of his personality. 

 

I don't agree that all Kurt is, is gay, liking show choir and fashion, and there's nothing more to him. In my opinion, this is actually stereotyping. 

Edited February 9, 2015 by fakeempress

[jaytee1812]

I'm also wondering why this matters to you so much. You're verging on offending the LGBT members of this board with your need to have someone's sexuality "confirmed."

I missed this originally. I don't need to have Brittany's sexuality confirmed, but I make no assumptions about it either. I don't make assumptions about anyone's sexuality.

[caracas1914]

Ironically Sebastian was another gay stereotype, ie the sexually  promiscuous gay male who enjoys casual sex.   (It's also a straight male stereotype LOL)   What I liked about Sebastian (unlike Kurt, Blaine, Santana, Karofsky, etc) is that  there was no background angst story for him at all.   (Blaine was beaten up, Kurt was bullied, Karofsky was closeted, Santana was afraid to come out) so that to me his gayness seemed almost irrelevant.  Straight, gay or Bi, we all know someone like Sebastian.

 

He was (initially) an entertaining comic  villain.

Edited February 9, 2015 by caracas1914

[fakeempress]

Sebastian, Adam, Elliot have the "advantage" of being foil characters, who are mostly there to be midgames or obstacles, creating angst for the main characters. It's at once limiting, and saving grace. Of the three, I was a big fan of Elliot, his no-nonsense zen was so refreshing amidst all the surrounding dramatics.  

Edited February 9, 2015 by fakeempress

[caracas1914]

Elliot was good for the limited purpose  that he was used for , and as far as I know, the Kurt/Elliot friendship was the one platonic friendship of like orientations that the show ever successfully attempted.

[Glorfindel]

My daughter started this bingefest with the caveat ... we are only going to season 3, pretending it ended at the finale at season 3 ... I think she had something there.

My (then 15) year old daughter stopped watching Glee after the first 2 episodes of season 4, and never watched a (new) episode since. This when she absolutely loved the first seasons (she's got the dvd's of seasons 1-3) and had Glee posters on the wall of her bedroom.

The writers really let it all slip through their hands.

 

Kurt apparently is so fashionable that he got some kind of fashion blog and interned with Sarah Jessica Parker as a Vogue something or rather. I may have blanked it out the details due to boredom. Kurt and Blaine dress with a level of attention to their clothing that becomes somewhat disturbing. Blaine isn't recognisable without hair gel. He is a caricature of well groomed gay guy whose 'friends' don't recognise him when he doesn't put in that level of effort. 

 

Kurt is stuck as the gay best friend of Rachel only to be sidelined any time a female wanders in and she completely ditches disparaging him at a whim. I think the only story line that Kurt had that didn't involve him being gay in some way was his time at the old folks home. Everything else as far as I can remember was being bullied for being an effeminate gay, Creeping on Finn even though he knew he was straight, crushing on Blaine, being annoyed at Blaine cheating, dating Adam for a New York minute. Even a potentially interesting story line with him and his time at Nyada was reduced to being about Blaine's diminished ego. Wait I just remembered his father's illness, which I suppose tangentially was related to him but didn't really involve him much.

Kurt having romantic relationships (and the troubles that came with it) has basically nothing do with him being gay except that his love interests happen to be guys instead of girls. But they are not gay storylines, nor does it 'stereotype' him as a character that only gets identified as gay.

If that was the case then all romantic relationships on the show between boys and girls would have to be labeled 'heterosexual storylines', and they're not.

They're just romantic storylines, straight or gay.

 

And even though both loving fashion and show tunes are traits that reasonably often can be attributed to gay men it doesn't mean that Kurt's Vogue storyline or his glee club and NYADA storylines are 'gay' storylines either, as they are not purely about him identifying as gay.

They are just things he likes, is interested in and actually has talent for. The same way jock types like Finn, Puck Mike, Karofsky, Sam and now Spencer like, and are good at football. It says nothing about their orientation, just what they prefer to do and are interested in. (Also....talking about a stereotype: half of those jocks are quite dumb.)

 

Rachel loving showtunes and getting into NYADA is not about her sexual orientation, so why would it then be about sexual orientation when it's Kurt? If it's not an issue for Rachel, it shouldn't be one for Kurt. There are also plenty of guys loving showtunes who are not gay; even in the show itself we had Jesse, Mike, Brody, and now Mason.

The only gay storyline I can find regarding Kurt loving showtunes is when Kurt didn't get Tony in West Side Story in season 3 because he was "too ladly-like" according to the directors, and that issue has only been touched upon but never got properly developed.

 

And btw: just because there are gay characters who like fashion and showtunes on Glee does not mean they are immediately a 'stereotype' gay character, only because they actually represent quite a lot of real life gay guys. Certainly not when a character like that is fleshed out and has actual feelings, motivations and development, like Kurt has. And when they're balanced with other gay characters who are more 'masculine' and straight passing (aka less stereotyped?) on the same show, like Karofsky, Sebastian, Adam and now Spencer.

 

IIRC the total of 'gay' storylines Kurt had in 6 seasons was:

- season 1: him coming out to Mercedes and his dad,

- season 1: crushing on a straight boy and the consequences that had for their relationship when they became stepbrothers,

- season 2: the bullying storyline (and as an extension of that Karofsky's suicide attempt in season 3),

- season 3: him struggling to be taken seriously as a performer because of the prejudices of his peers and teachers during the West Side Story storyline,

- season 3: maybe the Presidency election, but that was muddled, because it became mainly about Rachel accidentally sabotaging Kurt,

- season 5: him jumping in a fight when another gay man was getting bashed (and that was only 1 episode).

 

Those 'gay' storylines are not all Kurt was and did on the show, there was so much more. His dad's getting seriously ill (twice!), being friends with Mercedes, fighting for solos in glee club, the Muppet Babies (Kurt, Tina, Brittany, Artie, Mercedes), being a cheerio and a footballplayer, his dad getting married to Finn's mom, frenemy Rachel, adjusting at another school (Dalton), getting into his dream college, settling in New York without a home or a job, his band, Finn's death, the Peter Pan production, the already mentioned Vogue and NYADA, and of course his romantic storylines and struggles throughout the show's existence

But maybe because some (especially the first few) of those 'gay' storylines had such an impact on viewers (enough so that Chris Colfer became one of Time 100 most influential people in 2011) they stuck in people's mind, but they're only a part of who Kurt is and what he went through in 6 seasons.

 

I'd figure Kurt as being more of an actual character if he had any friends outside of Glee at Nyada, the place he's been going for the last 2? years. Or if he wasn't now dating a 60 year old man for reasons that are beyond me. If his life actually meant enough that uprooting it for his supposed best friend meant something to his best friend or was any way shown as an actual inconvenience.

Now this I actually agree with: I think they seriously dropped the ball on developing and focusing on Kurt as an individual character after season 3. He has been not much more than Rachel's prop and Blaine's prize since then.

And that not only annoys his fans, but even Chris Colfer himself has spoken up about it.

 

Btw, Kurt did have friends outside of NYADA: Elliot and Dani, who were in his band 'One Three Hill'. Isabelle from Vogue also was arguably his friend, and he befriended Maggie at the retirement home. Of the New York kids Kurt was actually the only one who we saw developing friendships (not romantic relationships) outside of his old glee club in New York. But the writers quickly dropped them and pulled Kurt back to Lima to be Rachel's co-director she doesn't trust running glee club on his own while he's pining after his ex who is fucking his old bully.

 

As for Blaine he's a red hot mess, OCD, cheats on his bf and his only apparent goal at one point was to marry Kurt even though they weren't even together at the time. Kurt held that Idiot relationship ball for a while and now seems to be just loitering in the background of Rachel's story about redemption or whatever nonsense that's about.

Blaine is a terrible character, and very inconsistent. The show tries to sell him to us as the acapella dreamboat straight passing alpha gay that everyone adores, but he's more flamboyant and unappealing (with his bowties and hairgel) than Kurt, while being a horrible insecure and selfish person most of the time.

 

My problem isn't that Kurt and Blaine are gay and like show choir or fashion. It's that those seem to be their strongest identifiers.

Blaine has yet to have a 'gay' storyline on the show besides being Kurt's boyfriend/fiancée/ex, and that's a romantic storyline, not a gay one. He never had troubles with being gay, except for that vague off-screen story of being beaten up at a Sadie Hawkins dance long before he even met Kurt.

I already mentioned why I don't think being gay is Kurt's strongest identifier. I'd rather say he's resilient, stubborn, snarky and prissy at times, but a loyal friend and son.

 

I don't know what Kurt or Blaine want for their future and they've had 90+ episodes to leave an impression. Adam levine left more of an impression in 2 than these two have.

I don't know what Blaine wants anymore either, besides wanting to be worshipped by highschool prep boys at his old school and getting back with Kurt (even though he's living with another guy), and frankly I don't give a damn.

But there were many episodes that mentioned and focused on what Kurt wants for his future, especially in seasons 3 and 4. He even said himself in 4x03 that in 4 years he'd be "working parttime at Vogue, graduating from NYADA, and starting my first Broadway show". And he's been gradually working to achieve at least 2 out of those 3 goals.

 

That said everyone else ranges in and out of caricature status, the various diva offs and pregnancy scheming and the whole pious on the outside but callous on the inside. The heart of gold nonsense for half of the antagonists. I'd just like the gay characters to have slightly more depth than a cardboard cut out of show choir gays. Maybe that's just me.

Like Britney comes across as a poor caricature of the manic pixie girl, instead of manic, she's bordering on the edge of idiot savante territory that can be lured away with cereal or an ice cream van.

Maybe you expect too much from Glee and its writers in general, not just the gay characters? RIB are simply not good writers, who basically only create stereotype characters in dysfunctional relationships going through repeated and cliché storylines, gay or straight.

Edited February 9, 2015 by Glorfindel

[jaytee1812]

That scene still angers me because there was nothing that Kurt did that warranted the kind of response he got. Not just from Rachel, but from Artie and Bieste who acted like complete assholes. What stood out to me wasn't that Kurt couldn't play the part well, but that no one was ever going to let him because they couldn't get past seeing him as "the gay kid". That the directors refused to even try to make that leap of belief that any actor needs their audience to make showed that they were not prepared to do their job fairly and Kurt (as well as Mercedes) paid the price.

 

It's just another case of Glee leaving a story half-told. They imply that Kurt and Mercedes weren't being given fair shots because they ran counter to what the directors (in their narrow POVs) were looking for in the roles they were casting, but didn't allow any proper address of the unfairness.

Maybe it's just me but Kurt never looked effeminate to me. Flamboyant, yes, but never effeminate. And he was never particularly camp, actually he's not even a little bit camp. It was another case of the show telling me something which didn't concur with what I was watching. As a gay man I don't see Kurt struggling to play straight men any more than John Barrowman, Jonathon Groff or Matt Bomer.

The thing about West Side Story and to an extent Grease is that it never really said anything about the abilities of those who didn't get the parts they went for. But it showed quite clearly Artie sucks as a director. If you won't take the risky choice when there are basically no consequences then when are you going to do it? On the basis of both shows he would've been rejected from any decent director program because all he did was put on lightweight versions of the originals.

[Hana Chan]

^^ This is exactly the point I was trying to make. Kurt didn't get the part due to some failing on his part in convincing the directors that he could play a straight role. He failed because they refused to even entertain the idea that he could possibly play a straight role. That they found comical the idea that he would even try.

 

I really wish that at some point this would get revisited. That after a few years of film school and being around real productions that Artie would realize just what a pretentious idiot he was in high school and apologize to Kurt and Mercedes for not being as fair as he should have been. But this is Glee so like most good ideas, it'll go unresolved.

[caracas1914]

I think part of the problem was Ryan Murphy's obsession with differentiating between effeminate gays and gays who "pass".  So Kurt was stuck in the crosswires of a SL to compare how he wasn't "masculine" like Blaine.  (and YES, the quotes are there for a reason) .

 

The irony is in the case of Karofsky and Santana, Glee also gave the message that it was just being "gay" that make others dislike you even if outwardly you appeared straight.  

 

If I had a dime for every conflicting message to gays that Glee put out. 

[jaytee1812]

I think part of the problem was Ryan Murphy's obsession with differentiating between effeminate gays and gays who "pass".  So Kurt was stuck in the crosswires of a SL to compare how he wasn't "masculine" like Blaine.  (and YES, the quotes are there for a reason) .

I never realised Blaine was the 'straight' looking one until the show said so.

[caracas1914]

I never realised Blaine was the 'straight' looking one until the show said so.

 

I thought one of the funniest things was when the show tried to "butch Up"  Blaine by making him a boxer/fight club guy. 

 

However it spectacularly didn't take because Blaine as played by Darren was acted fairly  effeminate most of the time, and so by the time in "Twerking" Unique is bullied in Season 4 it's Jake and Ryder who get up to declare whose ass to kick.    I wished someone had said in the choir room, "but what about Blaine, he was in Fight Club!"

 

Of course I should be appreciative it gave us the hilarious  S3: Big Brother:  "Fighter" montage of boxing while he's literally singing Christina Aguilera's song.

Edited February 10, 2015 by caracas1914

[jaytee1812]

I thought one of the funniest things was when the show tried to "butch Up"  Blaine by making him a boxer/fight club. 

 

However it spectacularly didn't take because Blaine as played by Darren was acted  fairly  effeminate most of the time, and so by the time in "Twerking"  Unique is bullied in Season 4 it's Jake and Ryder who get up to declare whose ass to kick.    I wished someone had said , "but what about Blaine, he was in Fight Club!"

 

Of course I should be appreciative it gave us the hilarious  S3: Big Brother:  "Fighter" montage of boxing while he's literally singing Christina Aguilera's song.

To be fair Darren does look lovely in that shower in Fighter. And to be fair why would you ever suggest Blaine for anything if Jake and Ryder are an alternative.

It not just Kurt and Blaine. Every guy apparently needs to declare his masculinity. It's a while since I was sixteen but I don't remember it being that necessary.

Also, I was watching the video posted on the songs thread from a tribute to Jane Lynch. I never noticed how tall Chris is before, but at one point he's standing in amongst Dot Marie Jones (btw, is she a freakin giant?), Jacob Artist and Blake Jenner, and they don't tower over him, he looks not much, if anything off 6ft.

[caracas1914]

Also, I was watching the video posted on the songs thread from a tribute to Jane Lynch. I never noticed how tall Chris is before, but at one point he's standing in amongst Dot Marie Jones (btw, is she a freakin giant?), Jacob Artist and Blake Jenner, and they don't tower over him, he looks not much, if anything off 6ft.

 

You wouldn't know it from any photo shoots featuring both Chris and Darren together.  IN those Chris appears to be 5-6" at the tallest. 

Edited February 10, 2015 by caracas1914

[fakeempress]

You wouldn't know it from any photo shoots featuring both Chris and Darren together.  IN those Chris appears to be 5-6" at the tallest. 

Lol this season's cast shot have them equally tall which is a laugh. Chris is 5ft10-5ft11, while Darren is Kevin's height, around 5ft7, let's say generously 5ft8.

[caracas1914]

Darren is Kevin's height, around 5ft7, let's say generously 5ft8.

 

From all red carpet appearances Darren is not taller than Kevin.  

[fakeempress]

^^That's what I said, I was being generous about 5ft 8 for both of them, though 5ft7 is most likely their correct height. Chris is visibly taller than both of them. 

Edited February 10, 2015 by fakeempress

[jaytee1812]

From all red carpet appearances Darren is not taller than Kevin.

According to IMDb Darren is 5ft8 Kevin is 5ft6 1/2

[fakeempress]

I wouldn't trust IMDB about actors' height. 

[jaytee1812]

From the spoiler thread about Will telling Puck that Jake was his brother:

I didn't mind it. On the list of inappropriate student/teacher interactions, that one is near the bottom for me. I liked that Will reached out to him even though obviously his methods wouldn't have followed protocol in real life.

I think you like it because it shows Will going above and beyond for his students, which I think is his motive and they are genuine. And I think that's how it was intended on the show.

But, Jake is sixteen, he clearly knows who Puck, he could tell him himself, or his mother could. The decision is taken away from them. And as per Glee a white man thinks he knows better than a woman of colour what is best for her son. He doesn't ask her or Jake what they want, he just goes ahead.

The fact that he brought Puck in as a 'good influence' doesn't make it look like the best decision either. The guy who had a kid and was in juvie before his junior years was out was the good influence.

[Sara2009]

I get what you're saying, and I don't necessarily disagree. I'm just saying that given what all the characters get away with on this show, this particular incident didn't phase me much.

[jaytee1812]

I get what you're saying, and I don't necessarily disagree. I'm just saying that given what all the characters get away with on this show, this particular incident didn't phase me much.

Oh yeah, I mean Sue should be in jail for some of her shit!

[wayne67]

Oh yeah, I mean Sue should be in jail for some of her shit!

 

Like how she admitted to 100 witnesses that she committed multiple acts of vandalism against the property of minors.

[camussie]

Regarding "City of Angels" this is why I feel it was a Sam is your new Finn episode more than a Finn tribute episode.

 

Here is the dialog from Will/Sam's first scene

 

 

Will: When he recruited you, he wasn't just looking for another voice in here.He was looking for someone to take his place after he graduated.

Someone to help lead all of these wonderful misfits.

Sam: I'm not Finn, Mr. Shue.  Finn was, like, a real leader, you know?

Will: And so are you.  And I'm gonna need you to be that guy when we get to L.A.  The kids want you to be that guy. They're all waiting for you to see yourself the way they see you. The new kids love you, and so do the older ones. I'm sure that everything is gonna be fine once we get there. But if the time comes, and you need to step up, I'm gonna be counting on you to get it done.

 

And some Sam dialog later in the episode to another show choir

 

I'm, you know, I'm Sam Evans, and I'm the leader of the New Directions. And, you know, I know you guys are all really good and stuff, but that's just gonna get us out of our comfort zones and send us over the top.

 

 

And later after Aural Intensity steal their Finn plaque

 

Sam : We got to get our game faces on and win this thing, okay? Okay, guys, look. The plaque doesn't matter. You know why? Because I believe with all my heart that Finn is here. He's right here with us, right now. And he's holding all our hands, and he's telling us, "The show must go all over the place. " And when we're up there onstage, he's gonna be sitting right next to Mr. Shue cheering us on. And when we win our second nationals trophy, he's gonna be cheering us on even louder. All right? So let's do this! Let's go! Yeah! Let's go! Let's do this.

 

 

Then we had their performances that ended with Sam holding Finn's drumstick aloft.

 

I am not disagreeing there was a lot of Finn was awesome talk in this episode (way too much IMO) but i felt like the primary reason for that was set up in the first scene - to say look how awesome Sam is because he is the new Finn and Finn was awesome.  

 

It was also problematic to me that Will was saying Sam was Finn's heir apparent as a leader of ND.  As much as he annoyed me I felt that Blaine was the person who had taken on Finn's role in the group.  

Edited February 17, 2015 by camussie

[jaytee1812]

There is also that it was problematic to me that Will was saying Sam was Finn's heir apparent as a leader of ND.  As much as he annoyed me I felt that Blaine was the person who had taken on Finn's role in the group.

This always bugged me, at that point Blaine had done the leg work and had been effectively lead ND since the start of season 4. Having said that it bugged me that they made Blaine the leader of ND and not Artie or Tina, who had been around since day one.

But Sam? Really? The idiot who married Brittany because the world was ending. The guy who asked a fellow glee club member why he didn't enjoy being molested. The same one who thinks all black people know each other.

[caracas1914]

I felt the show was sort of fuzzy in Season 4 who was the leader.

They started with the new Rachel SL which made absolutely no sense since Blaine was named but then it was decided no one was the go to person.

Sam did do something for the team in Season 4, like the whole Warbler steroids stuff, as did Blaine , but then again Marley, Jake and Ryder were all proactive in "leading" the club. However, it was Finn as the Director who seemed to take on a more active role in trying to maintain the club when they lost Sectionals.

The problem was that this "joint" effort was negated in "city of Angels" when Will implied out of the blue that Sam was the heir apparent to being the leader of ND.

It was done in the usually shitty meta way, with both Artie and Tina puzzled at Sam pronouncing himself the leader.

Edited February 14, 2015 by caracas1914

[camussie]

I felt like for the first few episodes it was Blaine and then in the few episodes they decided to tell Finn's entire journey(405-409) it was Finn but that was a teacher role so Blaine being the student leader was still there just not emphasized.  Then after the holiday break it was clearly Blaine with a side of Sam.  Still Blaine was in the drivers seat.   I have long held that the main thing that made Blaine so annoying in season 4 was that he was both the new Rachel, the lead singer of ND, and the new Finn, the student "leader" who somehow brought the group together.

Edited February 14, 2015 by camussie

[jaytee1812]

I don't remember the newbies ever having a leadership role. Within the show the had a lot of songs, solos, duets etc, but weirdly enough it was often out of the choir room.

In season 4/5 it was usually Finn or Will coming up with the theme and Sam and Blaine leading it. I would've said without hesitation Blaine was captain. I would've also said it should've been Tina, but I know better than to expect a woman of colour to get anything when white men want the same thing.

This is sort of related but it's something that occurred to me the other day. Apart from when the girls do the Spice Girls and Diamonds Are a Girls Best Friend, does Marley ever perform in the choir room. I've been wracking my brain trying to think of one and I can't.