Original Flavor Season Talk: Dinner at Rodbell's

[Aja]

22 hours ago, SparklesBitch said:

On another note, I'm not a parent and therefore can't even begin to imagine what it must feel like to have your brightest kid run off and elope with some guy you don't like at 17, but this whole arc is pretty masterfully written and acted, in my opinion.....I can clearly see where Becky, Roseanne and Dan are each coming from in this situation and why they each react like they do to everything falling apart. I feel for each of them. 

 

Totally agree! I always thought that arc was brilliantly done. I also like how there are continuing repercussions as a result of what Becky did later on, when Roseanne forces herself to react rationally to Darlene's pregnancy because she doesn't want to Darlene not to speak to her for a year and a half too. 

Back to Becky's goodbye scene, Roseanne's half-choked out "Bye, Becky" is one of the simplest, most emotionally wrenching mother-daughter moments I've ever seen on a sitcom.

[Bastet]

That is a great moment.

I also think Dan in the bedroom saying, "She's going to get pregnant, she's going to forget all about school -- This is it!  This is her life!" is so poignant.  Although he's generally happy with the choices he made about getting married young, settling into work, and starting a family, he wants his kids to make choices that give them more options.  He's terrified she's going to slip into what's comfortable, and wind up stuck.  

His "I want my daughter back, I want my bike shop back, I want things back the way they were before I screwed it all up" is equally moving.  And I love the tension break with Roseanne reassuring him he didn't screw up, and Becky doesn't blame him, concluding with a frustrated shout of, "She's really, really happy right now!" and saying, "Wait a few years until this whole marriage thing goes to hell, and then she'll blame you."

And I like that Becky's plan is not entirely stupid.  Not her brightest idea, certainly, just not completely without thought.  Things didn't work out like they'd planned (go figure), but Mark had a good job waiting for him, one that would let him in the union.  She was going to get her GED and then go to community college in Minneapolis instead of Lanford.  It would have been better to let Mark go do his thing (like she'd been planning to do once Darlene talked some sense into her), but him asking her to marry him and come with him and her saying yes isn't as ridiculous as it appears at first glance.  (And I love that she tells Roseanne getting married was Mark's idea, and he didn't have to ask -- it's not like he's marrying her for her inheritance.  Roseanne's reluctant little chuckle and, "Good one" is great.)

Edited March 16, 2017 by Bastet

[Aja]

40 minutes ago, Bastet said:

That is a great moment.

I also think Dan in the bedroom saying, "She's going to get pregnant, she's going to forget all about school -- This is it!  This is her life!" is so poignant.  Although he's generally happy with the choices he made about getting married young, settling into work, and starting a family, he wants his kids to make choices that give them more options.  He's terrified she's going to slip into what's comfortable, and wind up stuck.  

His "I want my daughter back, I want my bike shop back, I want things back the way they were before I screwed it all up" is equally moving.  And I love the tension break with Roseanne reassuring him he didn't screw up, and Becky doesn't blame him, concluding with out a frustrated shout of, "She's really, really happy right now!" and saying, "Wait a few years until this whole marriage thing goes to hell, and then she'll blame you."

And I like that Becky's plan is not entirely stupid.  Not her brightest idea, certainly, just not completely without thought.  Things didn't work out like they'd planned (go figure), but Mark had a good job waiting for him, one that would let him in the union.  She was going to get her GED and then go to community college in Minneapolis instead of Lanford.  It would have been better to let Mark go do his thing (like she'd been planning to do once Darlene talked some sense into her), but him asking her to marry him and come with him and her saying yes isn't as ridiculous as it appears at first glance.  (And I love that she tells Roseanne getting married was Mark's idea, and he didn't have to ask -- it's not like he's marrying her for her inheritance.  Roseanne's reluctant little chuckle and, "Good one" is great.)

I love this! All of this! Agreed agreed! Another brilliant moment of levity in the drama is when Becky screams at Dan that he ruined everything for the family and "I'm just the only one who has the guts to say it!!" and storms out. Roseanne walks over to Dan and says very quietly and seriously, "That is NOT true, Dan." Pause. "I would have the guts to say it." 

ETA: I, too, love that both Becky and Darlene's eventual marriages/pregnancies were not entirely "stupid kids doing stupid things and ever-wise-and-knowing-and-loving parents rescuing them." They both put thought into their decisions, and they were both intelligent young girls. The key word being "young." But certainly not idiots.

Edited March 13, 2017 by Aja

[FairyDusted]

Geeze just reading about those scenes made me well up. When he was on The Talk recently they asked if he would be interested in a reboot if they unkill him. Both He and Sara said yes possibly.

Glen ? /Mark passed away shortly after the show was over. Johnny / David....(KEVIN) on his first appearance is still doing BBT.  Also on TT was Dean Dean the son in law machine." Dead before he hit the water."   

[Aja]

"So, are you going to have sex with Dean?" Hahahahaha.

[Bastet]

27 minutes ago, Aja said:

Another brilliant moment of levity in the drama is when Becky screams at Dan that he ruined everything for the family and "I'm just the only one who has the guts to say it!!" and storms out. Roseanne walks over to Dan and says very quietly and seriously, "That is NOT true, Dan." Pause. "I would have the guts to say it." 

I love everything about that scene.  I appreciate that the characters behave horribly at times - they're like people that way - and Becky lashing out is perfect.  She's just had the rug pulled out from under her about her college plans, and before she can calm down and look rationally at her options, she gets hit with the prospect of Mark leaving town.  Some straight talk from Darlene has made her realize she'd be selfish to let Mark stay for her, so she's off to tell him to take the job in Minneapolis.  Standing in that kitchen, she thinks exactly what she says -- she's not going to college, she's never going to see Mark again -- so as frustrating as it is for her to be exclusively focused on her own feelings, and as painfully ugly as it is to see her shout out exactly what Dan is fearing, that he screwed up as a husband and father by trying and failing with the bike shop, it's the perfect set of conditions for it to happen.  And it perfectly sets the stage for her to say yes to Mark's proposal, for Dan to feel like it's all his fault yet still be angry, etc.  So well done.

Edited March 13, 2017 by Bastet

[Aja]

1 minute ago, Bastet said:

I love everything about that scene.  I appreciate that the characters behave horribly at times - they're like people that way - and Becky lashing out is perfect.  She's just had the rug pulled out from under her about her college plans, and before she can calm down and look rationally at her options, she gets hit with the prospect of Mark leaving town.  Some straight talk from Darlene has made her realize she'd be selfish to let Mark stay for her, so she's off to tell him to take the job in Minneapolis.  Standing in that kitchen, she thinks exactly what she says -- she's not going to college, she's never going to see Mark again -- so as painfully ugly as it is to see her shout out exactly what Dan is fearing, that he screwed up as a husband and father by trying and failing with the bike shop, it's the perfect set of conditions for it to happen.  And it perfectly sets the stage for her to say yes to Mark's proposal, for Dan to feel like it's all his fault yet still be angry, etc.  So well done.

Once again, agreed. I think Lecy Goranson's Becky was perfect. She was the absolute textbook eldest child in a lower-middle class household--expected to help out with chores, the other kids, and pull her own weight with a job, etc. Ninety percent of the time she did what's expected of her--good grades, helpful around the house without much nagging or complaint. But she's a kid, and like any kid, she had kid-like moments and tantrums, but they all center around the way she was raised, and even at her most obnoxious, it's not like she doesn't have kind of a point. The example that immediately comes to mind is when she writes Darlene's school paper for her, trying to be helpful because Darlene is depressed, and Roseanne rips her a new one for it. She very rightly asks "When is the last time someone bought me a cake for bringing home a decent grade?" Even Roseanne had to admit she had a point. I have a cousin who basically IS Becky. Or was. She went through a period of heavy rebellion because she was forced to be adult-like at such a young age. Becky always reminded me so much of my cousin that it's eerie. Everything about the Connor family, especially in the early years, was so organic and real. It was a really, really unique show that way.

[Bastet]

I love that Becky gets to have her say in that one, and have it somewhat acknowledged that she gets treated like the third parent in that house, which gets taken for granted.  When I did a marathon watch of the entire series a couple of years ago, a few things really stood out to me, either for the first time or to an extent I'd never previously realized, watching all the episodes in such a short period of time rather than spread out over years.  One of those was how much Becky was expected to do, and how Darlene was never given anywhere near the same number of responsibilities, even once Darlene was older and Becky was gone.

I also love the moment early on in the series, when the girls show Dan and Roseanne their report cards.  Even before they get distracted by realizing Darlene altered hers, Dan and Roseanne barely acknowledge Becky's straight As ("Aces as always") before getting right back to fawning over Darlene having managed to stay awake long enough to pass.  Young little Lecy gets the perfect look on her face in reaction, before high-tailing it upstairs.  Part of it is knowing what Darlene did, and that she's going to get busted for it, and just wanting away from the drama, but it's also a sadness that her achievements are expected, and thus not celebrated. 

[Dee]

10 hours ago, Bastet said:

When I did a marathon watch of the entire series a couple of years ago, a few things really stood out to me, either for the first time or to an extent I'd never previously realized, watching all the episodes in such a short period of time rather than spread out over years.  One of those was how much Becky was expected to do, and how Darlene was never given anywhere near the same number of responsibilities, even once Darlene was older and Becky was gone.

One of the things I grew to hate over the years was the writers leaning on Darlene as a moral voice of righteousness, especially toward Becky. Anytime Becky fought with their parents or misbehaved, Darlene was there to give her a verbal smackdown.

And yet Becky is never really allowed to deliver similar smackdowns to Darlene; in fact, more often than not, Becky tried to assist and/or placate Darlene as much as their parents.

The only time that Lecy's Becky rightfully lays into Darlene, is during Darlene's depressive phase, and even that is curtailed because Becky prioritizes her household responsibilities over personal satisfaction.

Edited March 14, 2017 by Dee

[BitterApple]

21 hours ago, Dee said:

One of the things I grew to hate over the years was the writers leaning on Darlene as a moral voice of righteousness, especially toward Becky. Anytime Becky fought with their parents or misbehaved, Darlene was there to give her a verbal smackdown.

And yet Becky is never  really allowed to deliver similar smackdowns to Darlene; in fact, more often than not, Becky tried to assist and/or placate Darlene as much as their parents.

The only time that Lecy's Becky rightfully lays into Darlene, is during Darlene's depressive phase, and even that is curtailed because Becky prioritizes her household responsibilities over personal satisfaction.

I thought it was sort of poetic justice when Darlene turned out to be a big fat failure just like Becky. She was always so smug about getting out of Lanford, and to see her end up exactly like Roseanne was kind of funny.

Edited March 14, 2017 by BitterApple

[Bastet]

Remember when Darlene snotted off that if she needed birth control, she wouldn't need her mother to get it for her, she could take care of it herself?  I guess not.

When I re-watched the series, I was stunned by how I came to almost hate Darlene after she moved to Chicago.  I hadn't felt that way the first time around (I despised her with every fiber in my being during the episode about Roseanne's tacky-ass baby shower, but that was a one-off), but watching several episodes in a row almost every night made it an entirely different experience -- she's an asshole during those seasons.  And not in the amusing, sarcastic way she'd always been.   

Edited March 14, 2017 by Bastet

[Aja]

I agree, and I always put it down to the downhill slide the writing took when NewBecky arrived. I don't think Sarah Chalke and Sara Gilbert had a single sisterly moment. They were downright nasty to each other at all times, which was NEVER the vibe between OriginalBecky and Darlene. In fact, the sisterly bond between OriginalBecky and Darlene was often showcased as being strong, and they were fiercely loyal to each other. The baby shower episode always felt off to me for that reason--Lecy came back with all of her OriginalBecky energy, and Darlene was still in the nasty mode she'd always been in with NewBecky, and all of the charm of their original relationship was gone.

Roseanne kind of got nastier too, and her moments showing her heart got further and fewer between. 

[Bastet]

Ugh, the ruination of the Becky/Darlene relationship is probably my least-favorite thing about casting Sarah Chalke (although, as you note, in that baby shower episode things are off even with Lecy, although they are completely back to form in the episode after Dan's heart attack).  Despite not liking New Coke Becky compared to Original Recipe, the various other relationships all still make sense to me.  The new dynamic between Becky and Darlene, however, is just out there.

And, as I've said before, if Darlene's animosity was concern and frustration manifesting as anger - if she was a little disgusted and a little sad that Becky was making choices that pretty much guaranteed she was going to live a life that was less than she wanted and was capable of -- the lashing out would make sense.  But there was no hint of that.  And Darlene and Becky had always insulted each other based on things that were true (Later, Morticia/See ya, Bubblebutt), so Darlene mocked Becky for being a dork who loved school, and things like that.  But by the Chicago era, Darlene is constantly running around calling Becky a dumb bimbo, when, even in Sarah Chalke's hands, she's neither.

I think it's something of a perfect storm that ruins the sisters' dynamic -- like with most long-running shows, the characterization was becoming more one-note by this time, they recast Becky with someone who wasn't a good fit, and Sara Gilbert, IMO, became a worse actor as she grew up. 

[BitterApple]

What I never understood is why the writers turned Sarah Chalke's Becky into some dimwitted airhead. Original Recipe Becky was smart-mouthed and sharp. The drastic shift in tone was so jarring. All Sarah did was flounce into the room, freak out about something and run off in hysterics. 

I also agree with the above comments about Darlene. Even though the sisters had always been opposites and adversaries, they stuck up for each other when it counted. For example, Becky writing Darlene's paper for her and Darlene lying for Becky so Becky could see Mark. The viciousness Darlene showed towards the character post-Lecy made no sense. 

I feel like the later years of the show were just miserable and nasty in general. I actually think things really started to go downhill after Tom Arnold left the scene. Once they got new writers it was shark, meet jumped. 

Edited March 15, 2017 by BitterApple

[Aja]

I've always thought the Tom Arnold years were the best years too. Even Tom Arnold himself was hilarious. (E.g. when Dan's port-o-potty got nailed with a wrecking ball and Arnie said "Nobody knew what to do, it was really an awkward moment. Fortunately, I had the presence of mind to start the applause." ) NewCoke Becky (lol) perhaps suffered at the hands of the new writers, but the complete transformation of the character made no sense even in that context. She wasn't just a different actress--she was a different character altogether. They even acknowledged this in the Patty Duke Show tag ("Where Sarah loved that dopey Mark/and wound up in a trailer park/Our Lecy shouts and Lecy squeals/she wants a house that's not on wheels"). I'd love to know the reasoning behind this. It's not like Sarah Chalke was a huge name they got to step in for Lecy and so tailored the character to fit her abilities. And it's not like they tweaked the Becky character to improve her--she went from intelligent, spirited, often funny, sometimes rebellious girl to a one-note foot-stomping hair-swinging idiot.

[BitterApple]

Speaking of Becky, Mark and the trailer park, why were their lives complete shit? Wasn't Mark a mechanic? Where I live, they make good money. Also, you'd think Becky could've worked an office job or something while going to community college, instead of waitressing at a Hooters-style restaurant. The Sarah Chalke years are kind of a blur, so forgive me if this was covered in the episodes, but I don't get why they were broke and struggling. 

[SparklesBitch]

On 3/13/2017 at 2:35 PM, Bastet said:

I also think Dan in the bedroom saying, "She's going to get pregnant, she's going to forget all about school -- This is it!  This is her life!" is so poignant.  Although he's generally happy with the choices he made about getting married young, settling into work, and starting a family, he wants his kids to make choices that give them more options.  He's terrified she's going to slip into what's comfortable, and wind up stuck.  

His "I want my daughter back, I want my bike shop back, I want things back the way they were before I screwed it all up" is equally moving.  And I love the tension break with Roseanne reassuring him he didn't screw up, and Becky doesn't blame him, concluding with out a frustrated shout of, "She's really, really happy right now!" and saying, "Wait a few years until this whole marriage thing goes to hell, and then she'll blame you."

I love everything about that scene because you can clearly hear the desperation in Dan's voice. He wants better for his kids and I think he was thinking, at least academically speaking, that Becky had the best shot at getting out and really making something of herself. He's definitely scared that she'll look back and resent her life. I always thought that there was a bit of we had to settle, but she doesn't have to settle buried somewhere in there....like he thinks that he and Roseanne never really had a chance to get out for whatever reason, but Becky, she's smart and capable and would do well in college, and that's the ticket. There was that conversation where they tell her that there's no college fund and she (understandably, I think) blows up and he seems pretty certain that she could get an academic scholarship. I like that he has that kind of faith in her.

On another note, I'm in no way blaming Dan for screwing everything up, because I think that the bike shop was an understandable decision at the time....one true shot at doing something he was going to actually enjoy for a living that could probably have made some real money if it wasn't for the recession.

However, by the time of the house flipping scheme with the delightfully slimy Tim Curry....I want to reach through the TV and smack both Roseanne AND Dan upside the head and say something like "have you learned nothing???"

I still feel sorry for Dan for getting taken for a ride, but at some point enough is enough. Although it does lead to that hilarious argument scene between Dan and Chuck that Roseanne breaks up ("you go home and tell your mom you can't play here no more!"), so I guess maybe I can forgive it.

On 3/13/2017 at 3:11 PM, Aja said:

 Roseanne walks over to Dan and says very quietly and seriously, "That is NOT true, Dan." Pause. "I would have the guts to say it."

Yes! So well-timed and so perfectly Roseanne.

On 3/13/2017 at 3:38 PM, Bastet said:

I love everything about that scene.  I appreciate that the characters behave horribly at times - they're like people that way - and Becky lashing out is perfect.  She's just had the rug pulled out from under her about her college plans, and before she can calm down and look rationally at her options, she gets hit with the prospect of Mark leaving town.  Some straight talk from Darlene has made her realize she'd be selfish to let Mark stay for her, so she's off to tell him to take the job in Minneapolis.  Standing in that kitchen, she thinks exactly what she says -- she's not going to college, she's never going to see Mark again -- so as frustrating as it is for her to be exclusively focused on her own feelings, and as painfully ugly as it is to see her shout out exactly what Dan is fearing, that he screwed up as a husband and father by trying and failing with the bike shop, it's the perfect set of conditions for it to happen.  And it perfectly sets the stage for her to say yes to Mark's proposal, for Dan to feel like it's all his fault yet still be angry, etc.  So well done.

Yes, well said! I completely agree. I love that it still holds up too. The hits just keep on coming for her and she's angry and emotional because all the good things she was looking forward to in her future suddenly disappear and she just blows up. It's totally authentic for the situation and her age and still is, I think. Brilliant stuff.

On 3/14/2017 at 4:31 PM, Aja said:

I agree, and I always put it down to the downhill slide the writing took when NewBecky arrived. I don't think Sarah Chalke and Sara Gilbert had a single sisterly moment. They were downright nasty to each other at all times, which was NEVER the vibe between OriginalBecky and Darlene. In fact, the sisterly bond between OriginalBecky and Darlene was often showcased as being strong, and they were fiercely loyal to each other. The baby shower episode always felt off to me for that reason--Lecy came back with all of her OriginalBecky energy, and Darlene was still in the nasty mode she'd always been in with NewBecky, and all of the charm of their original relationship was gone.

Roseanne kind of got nastier too, and her moments showing her heart got further and fewer between. 

Agreed. I missed Original Becky and her relationship with Darlene a lot....I would have rather had no Becky than replacement Becky. The dynamic was so nasty between Sarah and Sara that watching it makes me wonder if the actresses themselves don't really get along or if they were just really good at selling the badly oversimplified writing of a previously strong and somewhat complicated sisterly relationship.

On 3/14/2017 at 4:52 PM, Bastet said:

 and Sara Gilbert, IMO, became a worse actor as she grew up. 

Boy, did she ever. Little Darlene was my second favorite character. I loved how sarcastic and spunky she was, while still having plenty of heart. I was bored with older Darlene because Sara Gilbert just seemed so wooden. She basically just stood there and spit out lines. Her expression never changed. It makes me cringe the same way the woman who plays David's mom makes me cringe. She just stood and yelled. There was no real emotion or expression or body language. It was like she thought if she just sounded angry and acted really, really hard, everything would sound genuine....and it didn't. There's no fun in watching someone try to act.

On 3/14/2017 at 10:59 PM, BitterApple said:

What I never understood is why the writers turned Sarah Chalke's Becky into some dimwitted airhead. Original Recipe Becky was smart-mouthed and sharp. The drastic shift in tone was so jarring. All Sarah did was flounce into the room, freak out about something and run off in hysterics. 

Yes! Lecy's Becky felt genuine and layered and complex. Sarah's Becky contributed nothing. Sarah Chalke never really struck me as being a great actor, though. She cracked me up in Scrubs.....but everything with her is so loud and over the top and BigReactions! that there's no room for....well, quieter nuance, maybe?

48 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

Speaking of Becky, Mark and the trailer park, why were their lives complete shit? Wasn't Mark a mechanic? Where I live, they make good money. Also, you'd think Becky could've worked an office job or something while going to community college, instead of waitressing at a Hooters-style restaurant. The Sarah Chalke years are kind of a blur, so forgive me if this was covered in the episodes, but I don't get why they were broke and struggling. 

Yeah...these things have always confounded me too.

[BitterApple]

11 hours ago, SparklesBitch said:

 There was that conversation where they tell her that there's no college fund and she (understandably, I think) blows up and he seems pretty certain that she could get an academic scholarship. I like that he has that kind of faith in her.

keep on coming for her and she's angry and emotional because all the good things she was looking forward to in her future suddenly disappear and she just blows up. It's totally authentic for the situation and her age and still is, I think. Brilliant stuff.

 

Your entire post is spot-on, but I just wanted to respond to a couple points. I thought the episodes surrounding the failure of the shop and Becky eventually running off with Mark, were some of the most brilliant work in tv history. When Dan eagerly thinks Becky can just land an academic scholarship, I thought it underscored his and Roseanne's own lack of education and naivety about college. For example, if the college fund was long gone, they probably should've mentioned it to Becky sooner so she could meet with her guidance counselor and discuss aid and scholarship options. However, people who aren't familiar with the process wouldn't realize there's deadlines for that sort of thing and you can't just wish yourself a full ride to a four year institution.  

I also agree, blowing up was completely authentic, even if the plot served as a vehicle for Lecy to exit the show. Instead of Becky taking a moment to think and realize "okay, this sucks. But I can work, do a couple years of community college, and look into transferring the credits," she acts impulsively and runs away. It's exactly how a teenager would think, especially one who's had two major bombs dropped on her in one day. Becky saw no future for herself and chose the option that would at least get her out of Lanford.

Edited March 16, 2017 by BitterApple

[Dee]

And the irony is that for all of Becky's belief that she'd thrive after marrying Mark, she ended up right where her parents knew she would; stuck in Lanford, working a terrible menial labor job with a husband she felt alienated from and a suffocating depression about her life.

[Bastet]

1 hour ago, BitterApple said:

When Dan eagerly thinks Becky can just land an academic scholarship, I thought it underscored his and Roseanne's own lack of education and naivety about college. For example, if the college fund was long gone, they probably should've mentioned it to Becky sooner so she could meet with her guidance counselor and discuss aid and scholarship options. However, people who aren't familiar with the process wouldn't realize there's deadlines for that sort of thing and you can't just wish yourself a full ride to a four year institution.  

I like that, too.  And who knows if the guidance counselor at her school was even any good.  She may never have heard anything more than the simple "get good grades and you can go to college" mantra she got at home and a few "Any student planning to apply to college needs to come grab one of these forms" notices at school.  Although, come to think of it, she did mention that being active on Student Council would look good on her application, so she was picking up at least some of the things Dan and Roseanne had know way of knowing.

1 hour ago, BitterApple said:

Becky saw no future for herself and chose the option that would at least get her out of Lanford.

It's really so well done.  Because at first I just want to bang my head against the wall that this smart, responsible girl has just dropped out of high school to run off and marry her boyfriend, and start grumbling about the myriad better ways they could have written Becky out.  But then I have to acknowledge that it was a realistic as hell storyline.  She thinks she's not going to college, and never going to see Mark again (and something in her selfish, teenage mind must already be at least vaguely niggling at her that she said something really hurtful to her father, and she has to come back home and face that).  So when she tells Mark not to throw this opportunity away to stay in Lanford with her, to take that job in Minneapolis instead, and he asks her to marry him and come with him -- it's no wonder she said yes under the circumstances.

[DkNNy79]

IMO I find it hard to believe that Becky thought she had a college fund.  She lived her life and knew that they were always struggling to make ends meet.  If she really had plans to go to college I'm surprised she would not have looked into contingency plans.

I grew up poor and knew my mom had no money for me to go to college.  I worked all through high school, got scholarships and took out loans to make it happen.  I think Becky took the easy way out.  I never knew what she saw in Mark outside his looks.  I guess she was into his bad boy persona.

[Dee]

I think Becky married Mark because he exuded so many of her father's best qualities. He was warm, loyal, honest, hardworking and thoroughly committed to Becky. Sure, he was cute, but the fact that he stuck by her, in the face of everything, is what seals the deal for her imo.

In later years though, his lack of ambition began to bother Becky, who, like her Mother settled for putting a band-aid over a gaping wound, which slowly began to destroy their rock solid relationship.

[Aja]

Part of that was the writing downslide, too. Mark started out as a rebellious young dude from a crappy home life who was absolutely capable of taking care of himself--knew a lot about cars, was a great mechanic, supported himself and had his own place. It was only much later that he became such a moron that it was a miracle he could put his socks on in the morning.

[Maharincess]

On 3/12/2017 at 10:57 AM, Dee said:

Darlene: "See ya, Bubble Butt!"

Becky: "Later, Morticia!"

That's the best part of the whole scene. 

[FairyDusted]

Did anybody watch The Talk when John Goodman was on? The recreated the couch of Roseanne and they opened the show as Dan and Darlene. It was pretty funny.

[StaceyNotStacie]

3 hours ago, Aja said:

Part of that was the writing downslide, too. Mark started out as a rebellious young dude from a crappy home life who was absolutely capable of taking care of himself--knew a lot about cars, was a great mechanic, supported himself and had his own place. It was only much later that he became such a moron that it was a miracle he could put his socks on in the morning.

Both of them were such dingbats when they came back. I wondered if they actually lived in St. Olaf instead of Minneapolis. 

I always remember that scene when the four of them were playing Scrabble and Mark had the word Oxygen. He was so proud of himself with that word and they tricked him and he ended up with "it", yet Darlene was allowed "Buckety". 

A revival would be interesting. I know the actor who played Mark is deceased, but they have everyone else. Jerry, Andy and Harris would all be near adulthood if not already, so there's a few more characters they could start fresh with if they couldn't get other cast members. They could even throw in Crystal's kids if needed. My only worry would be that Sara/Darlene would be the lead similar to Candace Cameron Bure on Fuller House with Roseanne as a secondary character. 

[Dee]

47 minutes ago, Stacey1014 said:

I always remember that scene when the four of them were playing Scrabble and Mark had the word Oxygen. He was so proud of himself with that word and they tricked him and he ended up with "it", yet Darlene was allowed "Buckety". 

"The knowledge in my head is quite buckety!"

[SparklesBitch]

12 hours ago, BitterApple said:

When Dan eagerly thinks Becky can just land an academic scholarship, I thought it underscored his and Roseanne's own lack of education and naivety about college. For example, if the college fund was long gone, they probably should've mentioned it to Becky sooner so she could meet with her guidance counselor and discuss aid and scholarship options. However, people who aren't familiar with the process wouldn't realize there's deadlines for that sort of thing and you can't just wish yourself a full ride to a four year institution. 

Definitely! This episode does a great job at showing just how unfamiliar Dan and Roseanne are with the whole college process. The college fund is one thing that I'm firmly on Becky's side about. She's smart and she knows the family struggles to make end meet, and that leads me to believe that she was specifically told at some point that there was money set aside for her to go to college. I find it hard to believe that she would have just assumed there was a fund while knowing the financial struggle going on. And sure, she probably should have figured that if it ever came down to keeping the house or keeping the college fund untouched, her parents would have to choose to go through that money too, but she didn't.

And that's where I think Becky really slams face first into reality for the first time. She knows things are tight. She's used to having a lot of responsibility around the house not only because she's the oldest, but also because she sees her parents work really hard for not much pay, getting and losing jobs, having and losing income, but for all of Roseanne's talk of "how'd they get so spoiled when we haven't given them anything?"....the kids all have what they need and occasionally what they want while Dan and Roseanne go without. There have been mentions of Becky getting designer jeans when there's a little extra money, and there was that dress from The Ultimate in the mall episode where she throws a fit. I think she was told there was a college fund, and she figures that she did her part by excelling at school and taking on extra responsibility around the house and such, so why shouldn't she expect to get what she needs/wants at the end of all of that hard work? Then suddenly she's being told that there isn't a fund left for that and she has a hard time with the realization that things aren't going to go as she planned....because, well....things usually do.

Dan and Roseanne certainly don't pretend to have tons of money, but I think they shield their kids from their struggles more than they think. I remember there were small mentions of Jackie lending a financial hand every now and then too when she was able or allowed to do so.

This was a lot longer than I intended it to be, whoops. My basic point was to completely agree with you that Dan and Roseanne should definitely have told her sooner that the money was gone and then maybe they could have planned together for her academic future.

[StaceyNotStacie]

CMT showed the episodes where Becky left this morning. I've seen them a million times, but I still watched today. I love the end of the episode when Becky returns and Roseanne and Mark have their final moment. The actor who played Mark looked like he could barely keep a straight face, especially when she told him she was now his mother in law. 

[Bastet]

I love that scene between Roseanne and Mark, when she acknowledges that he didn't make Becky do anything; she married him because she wanted to.  "But I also know she wants to finish high school, and go to college.  And if she doesn't, I'll know that's because of you."  That part is sad to watch in hindsight.  But I like when he says he's going to take good care of her, and Roseanne knows he will.

Then there's the "Goodbye, Becky" that just breaks my heart no matter how many times I see it.  Another one that gets to me every time is when Dan finally calls Becky -- Becky's face and voice when she realizes it's him, the way she points to the phone and mouths "It's my dad" to Mark, and then Mark gives her a supportive squeeze.  And then the conversation about the windows ("No, this is easy, you just get a hair dryer - I know you know how to use one of those") and Dan agreeing to talk to Mark.  It's so touching.  And, again, a beautiful moment of forgiveness and healing that is expressed through a normal conversation rather than a tearful speech.

[Dee]

50 minutes ago, Bastet said:

I love that scene between Roseanne and Mark, when she acknowledges that he didn't make Becky do anything; she married him because she wanted to.  "But I also know she wants to finish high school, and go to college.  And if she doesn't, I'll know that's because of you."  That part is sad to watch in hindsight.  But I like when he says he's going to take good care of her, and Roseanne knows he will.

That's one of my top 3 favorite Roseanne & Mark scenes.

The other two are when he volunteers to ride with her to Chicago to confront David & Darlene ("What makes you think I want to sit in a car with you for an hour and a half"/"I got eight bucks gas money"/Let's go") and when she straightens his hair right before she leaves his apartment ("Tell your husband he shouldn't open his carb all the way up unless he's tooling around at some high altitude").

[StaceyNotStacie]

In regards to David and Mark, I like how they eventually brought them into the family unconditionally. Dan defended Mark to David when he asked why he'd let DJ hang out with him. Mark was probably what Dan envisioned his so would be like, personality wise, and Mark acknowledged that Dan and Roseanne were more their parents than their actual parents when David got married. 

[AndySmith]

Quote

Mark was probably what Dan envisioned his so would be like

You mean DJ, his actual son? ;)

I'm just teasing. I guess more accurate to say he saw Mark as something of a big brother for DJ?

With regards to the whole Lecy vs. Sarah issue...I will say, one of my favorite Becky moments did involve Sarah. It was the episode (or episodes?) where the family goes to Disney. For whatever reason, Sarah was playing Becky that week, and I love how the show broke the fourth wall:

Becky: Did I hear right? We're going on vacation?
Narrator: Ladies and gentlemen, the role of Becky, originally played by Lecy Goranson, then by Sarah Chalke, then by Lecy Goranson, will be played this evening by Sarah Chalke. The taking of flash photographs or use of recording devices is strictly prohibited.
Becky: Disney World? I've always wanted to go there!
Roseanne: Aren't you glad that you're here this week?

Edited March 17, 2017 by AndySmith

[Dee]

1 hour ago, Stacey1014 said:

and Mark acknowledged that Dan and Roseanne were more their parents than their actual parents when David got married. 

I had no problem with the Healy boys not interacting with their parents once they integrated into the Connor family, because there was clearly no love lost toward either parent; but I remain surprised neither of them tried to maintain a relationship with Nikki and Lisa.

[SparklesBitch]

8 hours ago, Bastet said:

Another one that gets to me every time is when Dan finally calls Becky -- Becky's face and voice when she realizes it's him, the way she points to the phone and mouths "It's my dad" to Mark, and then Mark gives her a supportive squeeze.  And then the conversation about the windows ("No, this is easy, you just get a hair dryer - I know you know how to use one of those") and Dan agreeing to talk to Mark.  It's so touching.  And, again, a beautiful moment of forgiveness and healing that is expressed through a normal conversation rather than a tearful speech.

Agreed. That scene is one of my absolute favorites!  

5 hours ago, Dee said:

but I remain surprised neither of them tried to maintain a relationship with Nikki and Lisa.

I've never thought about this before, but you're right, that IS odd. 

[Bastet]

Honestly, I suspect the writers forgot Mark and David had sisters.  We only saw them once - the snowed-in at Christmas episode, when Darlene realizes her family's version of screwed up isn't anywhere near as bad as it could be - and then they're only referenced once more when David says the asshole father has left and taken them with him.  I think by the time they'd have been a storyline for either Healy brother coming to terms with his life, those minor characters were completely off the radar. 

[Aja]

On 3/18/2017 at 0:46 AM, Bastet said:

 We only saw them once - the snowed-in at Christmas episode, when Darlene realizes her family's version of screwed up isn't anywhere near as bad as it could be - 

I love the look of utter bewilderment on Roseanne's face when Darlene walks in the house and gives her a kiss on the cheek.

[SparklesBitch]

1 hour ago, Aja said:

I love the look of utter bewilderment on Roseanne's face when Darlene walks in the house and gives her a kiss on the cheek.

That's one of my favorite moments!

And on the subject of bewilderment, I love when Dan and Roseanne are watching DJ and Darlene set the table together in the episode where Darlene is helping DJ get away with skipping school. They're being so nice to each other and it's killing Roseanne to not know what they're up to. 

But man, Dan and Roseanne's expressions! Dan's especially before he says something like "I'm scared, Rosie.".....just hilarious and awesome. 

[Aja]

"Forks go on the left. The way I remember it is "fork" and "left" both have four letters."

"Thanks!"

LOL

[Dee]

Speaking of setting the table, I love Darlene and David angrily setting the table in Playing With Matches after Darlene finds out Molly kissed David.

Dan teaching David the futility of disagreeing with Roseanne, about who needs to apologize, cracks me up every time.

[Aja]

49 minutes ago, Dee said:

Speaking of setting the table, I love Darlene and David angrily setting the table in Playing With Matches after Darlene finds out Molly kissed David.

Dan teaching David the futility of disagreeing with Roseanne, about who needs to apologize, cracks me up every time.

David: But I didn't even do anything wrong!

Dan: (mouths silently) ...doesn't matter.

[UYI]

On 3/17/2017 at 6:15 PM, AndySmith said:

You mean DJ, his actual son? ;)

I'm just teasing. I guess more accurate to say he saw Mark as something of a big brother for DJ?

With regards to the whole Lecy vs. Sarah issue...I will say, one of my favorite Becky moments did involve Sarah. It was the episode (or episodes?) where the family goes to Disney. For whatever reason, Sarah was playing Becky that week, and I love how the show broke the fourth wall:

Becky: Did I hear right? We're going on vacation?
Narrator: Ladies and gentlemen, the role of Becky, originally played by Lecy Goranson, then by Sarah Chalke, then by Lecy Goranson, will be played this evening by Sarah Chalke. The taking of flash photographs or use of recording devices is strictly prohibited.
Becky: Disney World? I've always wanted to go there!
Roseanne: Aren't you glad that you're here this week?

That was the first episode since Lecy's return that her college schedule got in the way. 

On 3/18/2017 at 0:38 AM, SparklesBitch said:

Agreed. That scene is one of my absolute favorites!  

I've never thought about this before, but you're right, that IS odd. 

Yeah, I mean, I'm sure that writers did forget about Nikki and Lisa, but if they are actually supposed to still exist off-screen later in the series, then I can only imagine how screwed up they became by staying with their dad (and I guess, if they ever visit their mom, it was probably even worse).

Edited March 23, 2017 by UYI

[StaceyNotStacie]

I've seen the episodes millions of times, but I'm now finding Roseanne so unlikable in the season during Jackie's pregnancy. She just seems so controlling and miserable. I hated the way they handled the situation where they brought David home from Chicago and the aftermath. 

Also, no matter how many times I watch this series, I will never like the character of Nancy. I preferred all of Roseanne and Jackie's other female friends. 

[Browncoat]

19 minutes ago, Stacey1014 said:

I will never like the character of Nancy. I preferred all of Roseanne and Jackie's other female friends. 

Same here.

[SparklesBitch]

11 hours ago, Stacey1014 said:

 Also, no matter how many times I watch this series, I will never like the character of Nancy. I preferred all of Roseanne and Jackie's other female friends. 

Me too. It's no wonder that Dan didn't like Nancy. He was right, she was completely self absorbed. That whole storyline where she knows that Dan doesn't like her and whines about it for the whole episode annoyed me. People don't have to like everyone they meet. Dan was perfectly polite to her whenever they interacted. That should have been enough for everyone. 

I didn't like Crystal either, mostly because she was such a whiny sad sack with an annoying voice. It seemed as though all she wanted out of life was a man. Didn't matter which man, just any man would do. Ugh. 

As for Roseanne and Jackie's other female friends, I missed Bonnie a lot when she was gone and thought that we didn't see nearly enough of Anne Marie. I really liked the other women from both Wellman and the beauty shop also. They were fun! 

[BitterApple]

23 hours ago, Stacey1014 said:

Also, no matter how many times I watch this series, I will never like the character of Nancy. I preferred all of Roseanne and Jackie's other female friends. 

Me too. I don't understand why they got rid of Bonnie and AnneMarie. Roseanne had much better chemistry with them than she did with Nancy. I only liked Nancy's character when she had Arnie to play off against. Crystal wasn't my favorite, mainly because all she did was complain about Ed never being around. What the hell did she expect when married a traveling salesman? 

They had the episode on yesterday where Bev fractured her pelvis having sex with Jake. I absolutely loved the growing look of horror on Jackie's face once Jake started telling the story and she realized what he was about to say. No matter how many times I hear it, "Craftmatic Adjustable Bev" will never not be funny. 

[StaceyNotStacie]

12 hours ago, SparklesBitch said:

As for Roseanne and Jackie's other female friends, I missed Bonnie a lot when she was gone and thought that we didn't see nearly enough of Anne Marie. I really liked the other women from both Wellman and the beauty shop also. They were fun! 

They could have easily brought Bonnie to the restaurant since Roseanne knew she was a good worker, especially since Leon joined them later. Speaking of Leon, I loved how they wrote him. He wasn't too over the top; he just happened to be a regular nice guy who happened to be gay. 

I hated the whole Fred story. It seemed like he was brought in to write in LM's pregnancy. I really hated how all of a sudden he was written out, although it seemed like they divorced Jackie and Fred just because they wanted Dan out of his job and didn't know how to transition him outside of the garage. Jackie's character got crazier once she got divorced. 

5 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

They had the episode on yesterday where Bev fractured her pelvis having sex with Jake. I absolutely loved the growing look of horror on Jackie's face once Jake started telling the story and she realized what he was about to say. No matter how many times I hear it, "Craftmatic Adjustable Bev" will never not be funny. 

I loved how Fred blurred out the truth and Dan's reaction. I loved how Dan had an adult male to play off of when Jackie and Fred were together. DJ, Mark and David were so much younger and the cast was so female heavy. 

[BitterApple]

5 minutes ago, Stacey1014 said:

 

I loved how Fred blurred out the truth and Dan's reaction. I loved how Dan had an adult male to play off of when Jackie and Fred were together. DJ, Mark and David were so much younger and the cast was so female heavy. 

Which is why I think the writers should never have gotten rid of Jerry and Kathy Bowman. Jerry could've been a pal for Dan and Kathy was the perfect bitchy foil for Roseanne. There could have been a lot of good stories with the way the husbands got along and the wives hated each other. 

Towards the end, Mark was so dumb and useless, and David so pussy whipped, they were both a drag to watch. It seemed like most of the characters were ruined by the time the show limped to the finish line.

[AndySmith]

Quote

Towards the end, Mark was so dumb and useless, and David so pussy whipped

During the last few seasons I was wishing they would just kill them off whenever they showed up onscreen.

[SparklesBitch]

1 hour ago, Stacey1014 said:

They could have easily brought Bonnie to the restaurant since Roseanne knew she was a good worker, especially since Leon joined them later. Speaking of Leon, I loved how they wrote him. He wasn't too over the top; he just happened to be a regular nice guy who happened to be gay. 

I hated the whole Fred story. It seemed like he was brought in to write in LM's pregnancy. I really hated how all of a sudden he was written out, although it seemed like they divorced Jackie and Fred just because they wanted Dan out of his job and didn't know how to transition him outside of the garage. Jackie's character got crazier once she got divorced. 

I loved how Fred blurred out the truth and Dan's reaction. I loved how Dan had an adult male to play off of when Jackie and Fred were together. DJ, Mark and David were so much younger and the cast was so female heavy. 

All of this is spot on! 

I would have loved having Bonnie at the diner, and I completely agree about Leon. He quickly became one of my favorites for exactly those reasons. 

As for Fred, I really enjoyed him. I liked the easy chemistry that he had with Dan, and like you said, that Dan had another regularly appearing adult male to play off of. Fred was just as much a decent guy as Gary was. I liked Dan having the job at the garage....things just seemed nicely stable for a bit. Jackie seemed to settle down a bit once she had Andy in that she got back a bit of the confidence she had in earlier seasons. New Mom Jackie was sort of sweet. Also, I thought the scene where she and Fred decided to break up for good, sitting at the table when they realized they truly have nothing in common and shouldn't have gotten married at all was straight up brilliant. No screaming and yelling or over the top insults, just tired acknowledgment of the fact that they got married for the wrong reasons. That was perfect. 

But, that being said, I was attached to Fred and thought he disappeared too quickly. His and Jackie's entire relationship was weird. I thought she was well within her right to not want to see him again after the first time before she found out she was pregnant. He was a nice guy, but that didn't mean she owed him anything. She even kindly made that perfectly clear in the diner early on, but he kept pushing. 

I get that he wanted to be involved with the baby once she found out she was pregnant and that he at least wanted visitation, which he absolutely should have rights to. Jackie went a little overboard trying to keep him out. She was flat out mean and unreasonable at times. One calm, rational, adult conversation could have saved them both a lot of stress. 

And that "big reveal" conversation that Jackie and Roseanne had in the diner about Jackie continually refusing Fred's advances..."they're not all like Fisher, Jackie, they're not all like Dad." struck me as being a little odd. I mean, obviously that's her problem. She's over the top mean to Fred and dismissive because she's traumatized. It should be obvious and yet it's like that conversation sets off a lightbulb in Jackie's head that "hey, of course he's not like that and now that I realize that, we should totally be together." 

It seemed really rushed. Like she was totally over her trauma now because Roseanne reminded her that Fred is a nice guy. I don't think it works like that.

Sort of like how when Roseanne first pushed Jackie to ask Fred out, she mentioned how it had "already" been six months since Jackie had been with anyone. 

Six months suffering through domestic violence, moving out of the apartment you shared with your abuser, moving in with your sister, moving out of there and in with the mother you can't stand, then buying a house and moving AGAIN....it barely seems like enough time to heal, let alone trying to force yourself into another relationship. 

And then Jackie and Fred were together and then married and then divorced in the space of a few episodes. 

I totally agree that after the divorce is when Jackie really went off the deep end.